I

By Tony Wicher, August 10 at 12:18 pm
rowman, August 10 at 8:16 am

• “Cyrena proposes that between these two parties one is better than the other. This runs contradictory to history and well, even the facts available to us today. Neither of these two parties have any features that distinguish one from the other.”
~~~~~
By rowman, August 10 at 8:16 am #
• Cyrena proposes that between these two parties one is better than the other. This runs contradictory to history and well, even the facts available to us today. …Neither of these two parties have any features that distinguish one from the other. Each election cycle, these parties put the marketing machines in motion so as to reinvent themselves – soften, harden, strengthen the message and measure their progress based on the polls. These two parties have traded issues so much; they have become one single party. We can refer to this single party as the DemoPublicans. …The DemoPublicans do not offer anything new; they offer the same corruption and same scandals. They transferred us from a nation of Freedom to a nation of Laws and make sure that we understand they are in charge.

• “So while Cyrena may have bought into the marketing glitz, she does not realize that she is both commending and condemning the same failed party.

Any vote for the DemoPublicans is a vote against freedom and the principals this nation was founded on”.

Don’t be another foolish Cyrena and buy into this bullshit propaganda. Find a new party and put an end to the rule of the DemoPublicans.
~~~~~

By rowman, August 10 at 3:35 pm

• “Nothing will be “fixed” until the DemoPublicans are all out of office. They have created a very corrupt system. Cyrena and many others are either willingly or unknowingly pushing their bullshit propaganda. Wake the hell up.

~~~~~
• “On another matter, in spite of the fact I may incur cyrena’s disfavor, I am actually willing to offer you a little support on the matter of race and racism”.

WOW!!

This stuff is all a week old. Seems like my ears should have been burning with my name being so loosely tossed around. I was originally inclined to ignore it, because I’ve long ago determined that rowman is of the mentality that anything that comes under my name, is immediately to be scorned, after he twists it all around, and represents it based on his long ago animosities to anything that I happen to say. So, like all of his counterparts on this site, he decides to DEFINE what *I* think, based upon whatever he thinks it is.

It boils down to me having to consistently repeat the truth, or expose them for suggesting something that I have never said. Stuff like me being under a marketing blitz is the type of thing that naturally would piss me off, because it’s the opposite of my own ideology. But then, that’s what people like rowman do, in attempts to discredit any critical thinking, or even neutrality. This was revealed (AGAIN) just yesterday, in a particularly vicious post directed at me from rus.

So, let’s break down the accusations (again) so that (again) I can make my point. I have never suggested that one party was absolutely ‘better’ than the other, because what I HAVE said, is that I’ve never been of a particularly partisan ideology. This has always annoyed many of my colleagues, because I’ve always voted the PERSON, rather than the party. That means that while my political ‘registration’ has changed between democrat, and independent, and back to democrat , and back again, (generally dependant on where I happened to be living at the time, and the political environment in place –at the time-) I have on occasion, voted for individuals outside of one of those parties.

II
More to the point. because I’m a conscientious voter. I pay attention to who is running, and I check into their credentials, along with position papers, bills sponsored, floor debates, votes (and the comments with them if available) personal history, (work, academic, other professions) and I also put it all in context with the rest of the political environment. Does that mean that I haven’t sometimes needed to vote for the lesser of evils, especially in a president? Of course not. Far too often, we have really NOT had much of a choice.

So, let’s be exceptionally clear here, especially for rowman, part of the attack dog team. I am NOT swayed by bullshit marketing of ANY candidate. I do my homework. That’s why I feel overwhelmingly legitimate in SHOUTING --- I TOLD YOU SO, to every stupid ass US citizen who voted for Dick Bush, in 2000, and 2004. It doesn’t MATTER, in this respect, that they didn’t legitimately win either election, because ENOUGH ignorant citizens STILL voted for them, or they wouldn’t have been able to pull it off! (And I’d bet money that rowman and his crowd were among them). I will ALSO acknowledge that many DEMOCRATS voted for them, and so I have to assume that Independents did as well, though I admittedly don’t have statistics on that. Regardless, I spent several months in the run up to that first fraud in 2000, WARNING about the dangers of what that Dick Bush team would do. Quite honestly, it was a frantic time for me, because I had lived in Texas at that point, for nearly 17 years, and so I KNEW what they were capable of. The whole god damned bunch of them!!

However, as AWFUL as I knew them to be, even *I* could not have become to envision the total destruction that this gang of thugs has wrought, in terms of overthrowing what had been a Constitutional Republic, where the rule of law was still basically the priority.

That is NOT to say that the cooperationists (yes, from BOTH parties) hadn’t already begun their damage. THAT started with Regan, and never let up, and Clinton codified parts of that destruction. NAFTA (initiated by Bush I) was the ultimate killer. Be that as it may, there is no way in hell, that any single person here or anywhere, can tell me that we would 1st, have EVER invaded and occupied Iraq, or 2nd, had ALL of our civil liberties thoroughly trashed, and our economy tanked out, if Al Gore had been the president, as we elected him to be. So in THAT respect, you are god damned skippy there’s a difference between these parties, or at least the people they’ve run.

What none of rowman and his ilk want to accept, is that what we’ve seen for the past 8 years, is NOT an historical representation of these two parties, and they also refuse to accept that while the CORPORATIONISTS exist in both parties, it does NOT make the entire batch of them what is represented by the Dick Bush Neocon Thugs. There are more than a few conservative republicans that have been mortified by this gang, just as much as democrats or any other party member. The neocons are so worried about Lawrence Wilkerson, they’ve done everything they can to shut him up, and he won’t be shut up. A life long republican, he’s claiming (and loudly)…”They high jacked my party, and I want it back!” He seethed through the first 4 years of this destruction as chief of staff and long time friend to Sec. Colin Powell, as he watched Cheney et al do their damage. Colin Powell experienced the most shameful time of his entire life after that speech that he gave, and he’ll have to live with it for the rest of his life, because he rebelled with they told him to do it, and still did it anyway. He should have resigned on the spot.

III

I’m not relaying any of this in ‘defense’ of the Republican Party. I’ve never aligned with the party, and never voted for anybody that was. I’m also not making any excuses for the previous sins of the Democratic Party either. Like I said, Clinton was no ‘lefty’. I’ve always and ONLY called him the best ‘REPUBLICAN’ president we’ve ever had, because in my view, that is true. He was a centrist, and he was as much a part of the gang that has become the cooperationists as any of the rest of them. However, he didn’t shed the constitution, or completely restructure our government based on the Cheney-Addington New Paradigm of Unitary Executive, or an Imperial Presidency.

And I don’t believe that the ‘Democrats” planned this GRAND HEIST that has ripped off the entire nation either. This is no ‘recession’ or ‘depression’ that we’re going through now. It’s a damn ROBBERY, and it was very intentionally planned and organized by a relatively small cabal, MOST of whom are Republicans, with some scattered Blue Dog Dems thrown in at slightly lower levels. You want a list, look to the signatories on the PNAC. Is the DLC involved in a portion of the THEFT? YES! I’m not denying that either. But I’m sick and tired of hearing from these whining republicans like rowman, who’ve been ripped off with all the rest of us, and needing to blame it on every single person in both parties, just to prop up their own denial of their own ignorance. You get one cabal who highjacks a government, and they happen to be Republicans, because I KNOW this wouldn’t have occurred under an Al Gore or a John Kerry presidency, which is exactly why they had to rip off the 2000 Election to begin with, and the rowmans and his ilk wanna blame the entire population of the Democratic Party as well.

It’s superficial and stupid, because in the reality of the day, these thugs can and will put on ANY damn label or color, and it doesn’t changed a damn thing! These bitter whiners are exactly that. Whining because now, it isn’t ONLY the poor, or the minorities, that are getting screwed in the ass, but them as well. So NOW they complain. I don’t even wanna hear it.

So save all of your bitter bullshit rowman, because I’m not buying it. There are too many democrats that have severed the public at all levels and in all capacities in this and the last Congress, who ARE progressive democrats, and committed to the form of leadership that has been intended. I know too many of them, INCLUDING Dennis Kucinich. Most have been hamstrung by the highjack, but it hasn’t prevented them from continuing to do what they can, by working within the system. And as we become more and more aware, we are replacing the rotten ones. Maybe YOU could quit bitching, and do the same.

You can try as much as you want, to connect Obama to this same cabal, but the facts will continue to prove you a partisan and demagogic liar, because the guy’s record is an open book, and you can’t find any ‘dirt’ on him, no matter how hard you try. His career is clearly documented, and it’s been a career of public service, in teaching and in politics. If he wanted to do the Wall Street thing, he could have done it 15 years ago. He had a chance, and quite frankly, that’s what MOST graduating lawyers do. When you’ve got a $100K plus in student loans to pay off, Wall Street sounds a hell of a lot better than teaching school, even at the University level. NOBODY studies Constitutional Law/Civil Rights Law or goes into teaching to become RICH!

IV

Meantime, *you* can continue to add to the instability which makes you nothing more than a tool for the fascists that have highjacked our country and our government.  The ONLY way they’ve been able to do it, is by the very deliberate destabilization of our entire structure; throwing everything into mass chaos. As long as the chaos can be sustained, THEY continue to CONTROL ALL OF US. You have NO chance of electing any of your alternative candidates, so it doesn’t MATTER what they would do. I already KNOW that Obama can at least bring us back from the deep fall, and restore some stability to the system. Your other choice is John McCain, and he will finish you off. Expect to perish rowman, if John McCain is elected because you’ve lost your minds.

As for ‘fixing’ anything, one of the first things Obama can do, (and probably will) is to educate you dummies about what has actually transpired. He can start by revealing, (making public) ALL of the ‘signing statements’ that this cabal has secretly attached to every piece of legislation they’ve signed. They’ve used them in place of the standard presidential veto, which can be overruled by the Congress. This MIGHT help you dummies, start to understand what the hell has happened to you, and WHO DID IT! Can he get back all of your jillions of stolen money from the Cheney’s and the Halliburton’s, and the OIL INDUSTRY, and the banks and the MIC? I doubt it. Can McCain? What Obama CAN do, is to restore the constitution, by repealing some of the most heinous of the laws that Dick Bush has established. Yeah, he’ll need Congressional support, and I don’t think he’ll have any problems getting it, unless you leave the same jackasses in Congress that approved stuff like the MCA to begin with. He’ll also keep the Supreme Court (already sitting on a razor edge) from becoming a complete tool for the radical right, which is exactly what will happen with McCain. You think things are bad NOW?

And save the insults. I can explain myself better than anyone else. If you don’t like it, fine….just keep ranting your same old shit. But don’t lie on me or otherwise misrepresent my views on this public forum. Don’t go there again. Leave me OFF of your attack list. It’s not to your advantage anyway. All you’re doing is bringing more attention to me. You’ve got all of your posts, ‘dedicated to cyrena’. How stupid. Haven’t you ever absorbed the wisdom that “A book worth banning is a book worth reading?”

Tony, I’m not at all troubled by your response on the racism thing. Racism is always going to be an issue with deniers, because they cannot take themselves emotionally out of the framework to examine it from a detached viewpoint. It’s a foundational flaw in the American psyche, and while some have overcome it, there will always be those who cannot. I just read a post yesterday claiming that people were ‘racist’ toward Christians. Now what does that tell you about the intelligence level of American society, when they can’t tell the difference between race intolerance and religious intolerance.?  Then there’s this incredible ignorance from rowman…

• “..They transferred us from a nation of Freedom to a nation of Laws and make sure that we understand they are in charge”

See what I mean? The entire CONSTITUTON of this Republic is founded on THE RULE OF LAW. Moron here doesn’t even get that. He doesn’t get the rule of law is what PROVIDES the FREEDOM!. He doesn’t get that the RULE OF LAW means that NO MAN IS ABOVE THE LAW. Cheney gets it though, which is why he set out to destroy it. He has repeatedly said we need to be a nation of MEN, not laws.

Go figure. I give up. I’ll just stick with my *one* intolerance, which is an ‘equal opportunity’ intolerance; willful and determined IGNORANCE intolerance. This ignorance comes in all shapes, sizes, ages, genders, religions, races, classes, and political persuasions.

“Ignorance is the most violent element of society”
~Emma Goldman

Your welcome Pat.  And remember Harry Truman’s line when someone said, “Give ‘em Hell Harry.” Truman replied, “I just give them the truth and the Republicans think that’s Hell.”

By cann4ing, August 18 at 12:52 pm #

Thanks for that link.  Great collection for my pre-presidential election blitz.  I’ll add it to the McCain library.

“Most working families today do not have homes that have anywhere near ten rooms. John McCain has ten houses. Many working people in America have to work two and three jobs to provide for their families and pay their car loans. John McCain hops on a private jet. Is it any wonder why McCain champions a George Bush agenda of cutting taxes for corporations and the wealthy, helping oil companies turn record profits, and leaving working families to fend for themselves? McCain’s velvet world leaves him utterly unprepared to make the tough choices we need to restore the middle class and ensure that everyone in America has quality, affordable health insurance.”

- Andy Stern, President, Service Employees International Union (SEIU)

For an excellent short on the hypocrisy of Republican economics, see “McCain’s Mansions:  The Real Elitist” at

http://therealmccain.com/?utm_source=rgemail

Tony,
Not sure your on the right thread. I did not speak to any ad here.

My point is that through history political control has shifted back and forth between these two parties.
They each have vested interests in the power seat but each needs the other. These two parties have managed to keep control and block any other party from upsetting their grasp. There is nothing that distinguishes one from the other and they are effectively the same party. Unless you want to pretend that the democrats have never voted for war, silly laws, corrupt earmarks, accepted corrupt donations etc. Both of these parties are guilty. They are both inept and they both represent the corporate party.

A fair number of people supporting the dem party has the stupid cap on and actually believes that they are going to fix something. Year after year each party trades control to the other and each time they run on a platform of “fixing” something. Look at history; it’s a pattern that you can’t deny and nothing ever gets fixed. It only gets worse.

So ill tell you what. Specify exactly what you think they are going to “fix” and how. Let’s come back in 4.5 years and see if they fixed what you claim they would.

Nothing will be “fixed” until the DemoPublicans are all out of office. They have created a very corrupt system. Cyrena and many others are either willingly or unknowingly pushing their bullshit propaganda. Wake the hell up.

Re PatrickHenry, August 10 at 8:28 am

I fear you may be right, Patrick. Every good American should volunteer to be a poll watcher in some form or other. I’m sure Obama will have a massive poll watching effort and plenty of lawyers at the ready. I don’t think he’s a pusillanimous Kerry or Gore. He really wants this thing.

rowman, August 10 at 8:16 am #

Cyrena proposes that between these two parties one is better than the other. This runs contradictory to history and well, even the facts available to us today.

Neither of these two parties have any features that distinguish one from the other.
----------------------------------------------------
rowman,

You are like a blind man standing before an elephant and a donkey saying he doesn’t see any difference. What can I tell you? Get a seeing eye dog.

On another matter, in spite of the fact I may incur cyrena’s disfavor, I am actually willing to offer you a little support on the matter of race and racism. You sound honest when you say that you don’t see any racial connotations in the McCain Britney Spears/Paris Hilton ad. For that, some posters have called you (a) a racist and (b) a moron. I have not called you either, because racial connotations are in the mind of the beholder, not in the objective ad that we all see, each of us differently.

Objectively, I think you are right. What this ad does is to compare Obama with Britney and Paris as an airheaded celebrity, so he will not be taken seriously as a presidential candidate. We Obama supporters have a right to feel insulted by this characterization, but in the real, hard-punching world of presidential campaign politics, as a referee I would have to call it fair. The question is how well Obama responds to this kind of attack. He’s a counterpuncher, so he should try to make this disrespect boomerang on McCain, not by hinting that McCain is either racist or playing the race card, which is to play it himself, but merely by calling McCain disrespecful and frivolous for putting on such ads at such a serious time.

Some people will see a racial context or subtext in the ad. Some posters have gone all Freudian on us, talking about phallic symbols and young, nubile white women. I’m not so sure if they are being objective or just reacting out of feelings of insult.

cyrena,

It would obviously be a disaster if the Clintons mounted any kind of serious challenge at the convention. It would destroy the party. There is no way this could benefit either Clinton.

But they are politicians with a monumental case of Potomac Fever, which as we know is curable only by formaldehyde. They might be ambitious enough and corrupt enough to do some underhanded stuff that will hurt Obama’s chances in November, but it could not have their fingerprints on it.

I hope this is not the case. I hope their love of country and basic moral instincts are sufficient to moderate their ambition for power. If Obama can bring America and the world together, he should be able to bring the Clintons on board in a genuine way. I’m sure he is spending a lot of his time working on the problem right now.

But you’re right, the Clintons have certainly never been known for great principles and they do bear watching.

We are entering the third general election cycle with diebold.  Little has been done to restore the publics faith in our democratic process, when in fact evidence of diebolding of campaigns has spread to the primaries.

Anyone who believes this is a “close race” as the privately owned polls and MSM would have you believe, need their head examined.

We need to kick out all encumbents out and get our government back from the lobbies.

What part of change doesn’t anyone understand.

Cyrena proposes that between these two parties one is better than the other. This runs contradictory to history and well, even the facts available to us today.

Neither of these two parties have any features that distinguish one from the other. Each election cycle, these parties put the marketing machines in motion so as to reinvent themselves – soften, harden, strengthen the message and measure their progress based on the polls. These two parties have traded issues so much; they have become one single party. We can refer to this single party as the DemoPublicans.

The DemoPublicans do not offer anything new; they offer the same corruption and same scandals. They transferred us from a nation of Freedom to a nation of Laws and make sure that we understand they are in charge.

So while Cyrena may have bought into the marketing glitz, she does not realize that she is both commending and condemning the same failed party.  Any vote for the DemoPublicans is a vote against freedom and the principals this nation was founded on.

Don’t be another foolish Cyrena and buy into this bullshit propaganda. Find a new party and put an end to the rule of the DemoPublicans.

I’ve cross-posted this on another thread, just in response to the dilemma of Conservative Republicans who still see McCain in line with their own views. This has been impossible for me to ‘process’ but I’ve been forced to try and figure it out, based on the fact that this election race is as close as it is. For me, that has been nearly impossible to ‘compute’ in my mind, considering the horrific destruction we’ve suffered under this regime, and the fact that McCain promises more of the same. In other words, aside from the ingrained racism that some will never get beyond, why in the hell is ANYBODY even considering McCain over Obama? Yet, if we are to believe the polls, (many of which are conducted quite well and designed in a non-partisan fashion) this thing is far too close. In other words, Obama should be ahead of McCain by about a million points. But, he isn’t.

So, this essay (which I believe is an excerpt) helps explain it (for me at least) better, because it brings it all back to the ideology of conservatism. John Dean’s book is helpful as well, “Conservatives Without Conscience” but this provides a shortcut to the core of the disaster.

Follow This Dime: Why Misgovernment Was No Accident in George W. Bush’s Washington
Monday 04 August 2008

by: Thomas Frank, TomDispatch.com

http://www.truthout.org/article/follow-this-dime?print

And, here’s a ‘complimentary’ piece that simply backs up the first, which shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone. McCain is funded by the very same sources that Obama knew he would be funded by, REGARDLESS of whether or not McCain had committed to so-called public financing.

Did New York Couple Give $61,600 to McCain, GOP?
Tuesday 05 August 2008
by: Greg Gordon, McClatchy Newspapers

“Washington - Alice Rocchio is an office manager at the New York headquarters of the Hess Corp., drives a 1993 Chevy Cavalier and lives in an apartment in Queens, N.Y., with her husband, Pasquale, an Amtrak foreman.

Despite what appears to be a middle-class lifestyle, the couple has written $61,600 in checks to John McCain’s presidential campaign and the Republican National Committee, most of it within days of McCain’s decision to endorse offshore oil drilling.

At a June fundraiser, the Rocchios joined top executives at Hess Corp. - Chairman and Chief Executive Officer John Hess, his wife, Susan, his mother, Norma Hess, and six other officials in giving a total of $313,500 to a joint McCain-RNC fundraising committee, Federal Election Commission records show.

The donations, first traced by Campaign Money Watch last week, were part of $1.2 million in oil industry contributions to McCain’s Victory ‘08 Committee, 73 percent coming after McCain reversed his long-held opposition to offshore oil drilling. The non-partisan watchdog group said oil executives and their spouses from Colorado, Mississippi, Louisiana, California, Indiana, New Jersey and Florida also donated.”

Continued at the link, with pictures and all

http://www.truthout.org/article/is-big-oil-funneling-d onations-mccain

By Tony Wicher, August 9 at 8:13 pm #

Re cyrena, August 9 at 8:08 pm

Aw, cyrena, and here I have been expressing pious hopes that by the time Clinton gives his speech at the Democratic convention, he and Obama will be making beautiful music together! Bill just can’t get over losing his title of the country’s first black president to the real thing. But he’s a pro. I know he can do it.

~~~~~~~

I never said he wasn’t a pro Tony. He’s that. So, I never suggested that he COULDN’T do it. The question in my own mind is WILL HE?

There is truth to what Purple Girl has pointed out. Hillary has NOT conceded, or taken her name off of the Convention Roster. She spent her entire campaign after February proving to the world that she would win at ALL COSTS!

She’s gone through the motions in the promise to ‘help’ Obama’s campaign, and that was limited to a one time appearance someplace in New Hampshire.

So, while you’re holding the pious thoughts about Billy Boy, (and I’m not faulting you for it) there’s his wife, who is far to the right of Billy the Genius. (and not as smart I might add)

And, there’s all of the Hillary malcontents. Tons of them. So, regardless of how things ‘appear’ to be now, it’s always good to be at least ‘aware’ of any lulls that might precede any storms. Not to focus on them, but to be ‘aware’ of them. Measured paranoia isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Like Louise says, “If we aren’t paranoid, (at least to some degree) we aren’t paying attention.”

That said, I’ll leave you with some of Maya Angelou’s wisdom..

~"Always hope for the best, but prepare for the worst”

And here’s just one excerpt from a favorite poem she’s penned,

~"EVERY
WOMAN SHOULD KNOW..
whom she can trust,
whom she can’t,
and why she shouldn’t take it personally."~

(That’s from her poem entitled “What Every Woman Should Know”, but it’s ‘equal gender opportunity advice’ )

Re cyrena, August 9 at 8:08 pm

Aw, cyrena, and here I have been expressing pious hopes that by the time Clinton gives his speech at the Democratic convention, he and Obama will be making beautiful music together! Bill just can’t get over losing his title of the country’s first black president to the real thing. But he’s a pro. I know he can do it.

By Purple Girl, August 9 at 11:31 am

“…No One should doubt Hillary’s goal to run in 2012- So Mac’s win Works for Her. Let’s not forget her undying affection and support for Mac’s candidacy over Obama’s throughout the primaries.
Seh has not conceded, she has not refused to have her name taken off the Convention Delegate roll Call, she has not tapped her own contributors to pay for her debt ( considering 18 million could contribute $1.00 and nearly wipe out her bill- which she racked up by refusing to concede since Feb, when it was obvious she couldn’t win the nomination).

Is Obama keeping his Friends close- but his Enemies Closer. If I were him, I would - esp after Hillary’s 3 time assasination REQUEST!
fuck the Neo Cons working both sides of the aisle.......

~~~~~~

Here Here Purple Girl!

I’m with you on this. Oh yes. I don’t trust Hillary as far as I could throw her. What I HADN’T even considered, was this last line of wisdom you put out there…Is Obama keeping his friends close, but his enemies closer. Ah HA! Smarter people than I have figured that out. You’re damn right that’s exactly what he should be doing.

So fine, let Madeline Albright and the rest of them, hang around. Better to keep tabs on them, eh?

Meantime, I’ve never had any doubt that it is the efforts of the McSame-Clinton team that have been responsible for keeping this race even as close as it is. It should have been over for Mac long ago. Clearly Hillary has not given up, and neither have her die-hard supporters. They are apparent all over this and other web sites, and in their swiftboating configurations.

THAT much I KNOW Obama is aware of.

I buy these polls as much as I buy Bush ‘won’ in ‘00 and ‘04, and Hillary ‘Won’ Michigan in the primaries- giving her the unwarranted claim to the “Popular vote”.
As for WHO threw out race as a point of fear and ineliblity to Run for President- That would b eHilalry and her Surrogates and supporters.She handed Mac’s handlers the ball. Of course she didn’t just use race to kneecap Obama’s campaign she threw down the ‘Sexism’ card too, Dragging th ewomens Movement for equality right down with her. She is NOT an Advocate for Women- she used the movement by feeding into the stereotypes we have spent decades dispelling. She manipulated Women and undermined our quest for the opportunity to compete on a level playing field, without bars being lowered, nor red carpets rolled out for Us.
I also feel she is using the ‘kindess’ of her friends to help Mac defeat Obama- sending over her Corp Donor connections -undermining the Financing promise of no corp influence. and then her and Bills former associates as advisors.
consider if he refused these donors, he could lose becaue their funds would go to Mac. If he accepts, he is painted as nothing more then a ‘flip flopper’ on finance reform. Same goes with their ‘gracious’ offer of advisors- Obama can Use them, or be a victim of them.
No One should doubt Hillary’s goal to run in 2012- So Mac’s win Works for Her. Let’s not forget her undying affection and support for Mac’s candidacy over Obama’s throughout the primaries.
Seh has not conceded, she has not refused to have her name taken off the Convention Delegate roll Call, she has not tapped her own contributors to pay for her debt ( considering 18 million could contribute $1.00 and nearly wipe out her bill- which she racked up by refusing to concede since Feb, when it was obvious she couldn’t win the nomination).
Is Obama keeping his Friends close- but his Enemies Closer. If I were him, I would - esp after Hillary’s 3 time assasination REQUEST!
fuck the Neo Cons working both sides of the aisle.......

Obama/Hagel ‘08

By Max Shields, August 8 at 10:30 am #

The argument that McCain doesn’t know anything about the economy is as frivilous an argument as Obama is the Paris Hilton of Prez candidates. Both are clueless which means regardless things will not get better with either in the Oval office.
-----------------------------------------------------Sounds like you and rowman ought to take up another hobby. To listen to you guys, the situation is hopeless. As I asked him, why even waste your time kvetching? While waiting for doom, find a more pleasant way to spend your time.

Money Bags Daddy Warbucks, seems by lowering taxes, even in the Hampton’s they cannot keep their city services running. Maybe this is a small part of the plan or scheme of things, eliminate infrastructure as it is and institute cheaper us and them.  No medical plan, eliminate benefits and living wages.

The depression as my dad told it, his boss would come up to him and say.

“ This guy said he will work for a dollar less per hour than you, or do you want to stay on and cut your wages by a buck? “

thebeerdoctor, August 7 at 3:46 am #

A united Democratic party is needed to accomplish this task. Bill Clinton’s damning of Obama with faint praise does not help. The John Edwards “love child” story, if true, does not help. Hillary Clinton’s angling at the convention does not help. The staunch Obama supporters need to ask themselves: do you really want Senator Obama to win this election? If the answer is yes, you will need a very strong unified Democratic party, where all democrats and people who sympathize will get out and vote and make history. Right now that is not looking too good.
Forget the hype about new politics, there is no new politics, just the gut wrenching blood sport it has always been.
“The first duty of a politician is to get elected.”
WINSTON CHURCHILL
That is most certainly the task at hand.
---------------------------------------------------
Beerdoctor, I just read this post and I heartily endorse it.

I think it’s very important to get Bill Clinton fully on board. He and Obama are both great speakers. They should be singing beautiful music together in Denver. Bill’s a pro. I think it will happen.

By rowman, August 7 at 9:04 am #

Nothing will change with either of these people in office. Nothing. Taxes will go up regardless, Al Gore will get richer regardless and Bill Clinton will continue debating the definition of “is” while trying to sell some kind of influence to China. Its all crap.
-------------------------------------------------
Yeah, really. Might as well give up politics. What’s the point of even coming to TD to kvetch?

• “This article was misleading. I thought it would cover some meaningful economic issues but then I hit this:
“Obama’s African-American, isn’t he? Isn’t that evident to anyone who sees him? Do we need John McCain, Obama’s Republican opponent, to remind us of that?”

It’s only ‘misleading’ to the already ‘misled’ rowman. Like….retards. You proved it again with this.

• “I thought Obama was a dark skinned Caucasian with a racist grandmother. Sheesh.”

A ‘dark skinned Caucasian’? MORON!! And why do you label his grandmother a racist, instead of correctly stating that she has been known to utter racial slurs from time to time, that were somewhat uncomfortable for her grandson to hear? (I believe he said these remarks sometimes made him ‘cringe’) HE didn’t call her a ‘racist’!

You propagandists should be dizzy by now, from all the spinning you do. 

Now maybe if you weren’t so totally focused on the race issue yourself, (as most racists are) you wouldn’t have been ‘mislead’ by the article. It was about the economy, and how Obama (regardless of his color or race) should be focusing on THAT, as the foundation of his campaign platform, since he DOES ‘get it” and since THAT is the concern of the larger percentage of the US electorate.

That’s because it is HUMAN nature to want to survive, and for those millions of us who are having a hard time doing that, we’re inclined to choose survival over race preference, caring little or not at all, about what race or color any of the candidates happens to be.

So maybe you should actually READ the piece rowman, paying particular attention to the results of the cited surveys, which provide a general feel for the opinions of the voting public, and WHY they feel the way they do.

By thebeerdoctor, August 7 at 4:30 am #

To your point about the media’s take on the election cycle. Every real progressive I know has been yelling that the air waves are part of the commons and licensed by the gov’t in the name of the people.

Legally I don’t know where things stand today but it seems to me that gov’t issued licenses to these networks stipulates they must give a certain amount of equal time for public services announcements -such as election campaigns. Obviously there’s a massive loop hole somewhere in that.

As long as a candidate can opt out because he/she can get more money else where the system remains corrupted. This is what makes Obama’s flip on his pledge more than a simple tactical move. It speaks to the very problem of this so-called democracy. Saying the money comes from small donars (most of it doesn’t) is totally and completely beside the point.

The argument that McCain doesn’t know anything about the economy is as frivilous an argument as Obama is the Paris Hilton of Prez candidates. Both are clueless which means regardless things will not get better with either in the Oval office.

The economy is McCain’s greatest weakness. The economy is McCain’s greatest weakness. The economy is McCain’s greatest weakness. The economy is McCain’s greatest weakness. The economy is McCain’s greatest weakness. The economy is McCain’s greatest weakness.

If I were in the Obama camp, I’d keep repeating that rather penetrating observation. Eight years of Bush Republicanism has destroyed many things, but most immediately to the experience of most Americans, the economy.

By Leefeller, August 8 at 7:02 am #

Appreciated…

Max

You caught me Max, I did not read the article, simply because the article had the word economics in it. your post I found inspiring and your point is understood.

By Leefeller, August 8 at 6:17 am #

The premise of the guy who wrote this article is who you should be quarreling with since he’s interjected the notion of how Obama should “play the economic card” not me. You did read the article...?

That said, economics is not a “science”, it is however a way of viewing relationships. Nature is an economic system - an ecosystem. I have no problem in talking about economic relationships and the various approaches we as human societies can take. I’m interested in sustainable living economies. These two candidates and their economic advisory handlers are NOT. They are interested in uneconomic growth and everything that implies (war is a means to that end).

But to my point about Obama and McCain, neither have the so-called “upper hand” with regard to the American economy because neither have a position that is fundmenally different than the one we have in place. Anything short of a fundamental change is status quo.

That’s my point.

Hairsplitting differences are a matter of selective design.  Using top advisor’s who have agendea’s not conducive to the normal slob on the street, seems to be the trend needed to get the support from Wall Street and the MSM. 

Criticizing someone for not being an expert in economics is laying undue credibility on the so called science of economics. Interesting how that works, economics has as varied ideas about the way things should be, about the same way different religions believe what is real.

Agendas of opportunism prefer to need no accounting.

The US economy is a big question mark. No one can be absolutely sure about the future, but given what is in front of us it is very clear that the Obama economic advisory board will continue with an overarching Reaganomic-business as usual. Clinton was a Reaganomic advocate and his crew of elite Wall-Street advisors are the same ones Obama’s got on board.

Conservatives - that is the ones with money and a Reaganeqe bent - have been nodding affirmatively for sometime regarding Obama. Should tell you something - you Dem liberals.

Obama, a progressive? Hardly. Western, primarily US bred, economics now exported to China and somewhat to India is pathological and preditory in nature. Obama, like McCain, unquestionably believe in it. They will invade and do whatever it takes to keep the preditory engine going. No gentle stuff to be heard from either of these establishment Party candidates.

Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-dum. Surely no one is suggesting that either has a grasp of any kind of economics....are they? Is the assumption that the one with the ability to read the tell-prompter best is the most capable of leading on the economy? Why not? when the choices are false this makes as much sense as any other meaningless hair-splitting differences.

Even in the event of a McCain Victory, and the catastrophy that will represent for the American people and for the economy.

Even if bread lines return, and 3/4 of this country is owned by ouside investors, even if the dollar becomes level with the Peso.

There will probably be at least 35% of the country that will still vote for Republican’s.

Because conservative politics is a religion, and as such only requires, belief, not reationality.

It is scary that McSame is pulling even with Barack. Bill B. is right in that he needs to focus on the economy-after all-the only sensitive parts of most americans are their wallets.
One retarded nation under a retarded president, getting more cognitively challenged all the time.

This article was misleading. I thought it would cover some meaningful economic issues but then I hit this:
“Obama’s African-American, isn’t he? Isn’t that evident to anyone who sees him? Do we need John McCain, Obama’s Republican opponent, to remind us of that?”

I thought Obama was a dark skinned Caucasian with a racist grandmother. Sheesh. And Jesse was worried about him being “black enough”. Someone forgot to tell him. Has McCain every reminded anyone of his race? Don’t recall that but it’s good to know that these are the important issues.

At least we know that Pelosi is controlling the puppet strings here and we know where she stands. Or do we? Cant tell, she has not done anything yet. Perhaps in another 20 yrs or so.

Nothing will change with either of these people in office. Nothing. Taxes will go up regardless, Al Gore will get richer regardless and Bill Clinton will continue debating the definition of “is” while trying to sell some kind of influence to China. Its all crap.

Hmmm, playing the economic card, eh? Can I interpret that to mean some of the real issues will begin to see the light of day? Watchful waiting on that.
Bugliosi, right on. I follow him with his agenda on w because congress sure ain’t gonna do anything, thank you for nothing pelosi. According to some news there is at least one family looking to have a prosecutor bring ole w up on charges of murder with the help of bugliosi’s book which is why he put it in book form so that maybe a prosecutor somewhere will think of it as not just worth his time but his duty to prosecute a real murder charge.

re: VietnamVet

“If the American people stop for just a moment and consider what Mr. Bush subjected this nation to...” Is exactly what Vincent Bugliosi is trying to do, like a hellhound on his trail for the rest of his life, he wants to live to see the day when Geroge W Bush is made accountable for his crimes against humanity, not only the senseless slaughter of our soldiers, but the countless civilian casualties too.

RE: By thebeerdoctor, August 7 at 4:36 am #
re: That’s Vincent Bugliosi. Excuse my typo.

Well, no problem on ONE mistake, see what I said about two or more.

But, just what the hell does this have to do with my post?

Career politicians have developed a nice job for themselves, a career of opportunism.  The decider is a good example of a career person making great decisions.  Pelosi plays the game to the max.  Why would it not be better if political service was limited like the one and only real democracy of the past, service of several months, of course everyone would have to be aware, apathy cannot be in a real Democracy. 

Career opportunists need to be discouraged, impeachment would be on the table, maybe even their heads.

re:
That’s Vincent Bugliosi. Excuse my typo.

re: VietnamVet

Don’t you find it rather curious that the man who convicted Charles Manson as prosecutor, now wants to try George W Bush for murder? How many people are listening to what Vicent Bugliosi is saying?

re: Dr. Knowitall

A law should be passed that would limit campaigning to only six weeks before an election. A week or two for debate over policy, then a rehash for those who missed it the first time out. But this will not happen because the television industry is absolutely opposed to campaign reform. Every election cycle they take in more money. This also explains the function of the political punditry, to promote the product the company is selling: television advertising, available at always expanding rates.
This state of affairs will continue until an awareness grows that this is not healthy. But those who profit from this system, will always claim that there is nothing wrong.

If the American people stop for just a moment and consider what Mr. Bush has subjected this Nation to over the past seven plus years, Obama should win by a land slide. Yet, I find it mind boggling that a candidate (Mr. McCain) that is only offering four more years of Mr. Bush and his ilk is even close! The American people will rightfully DESERVE who they put in office this time around, given all the evidence out there. Making a mistake one time around is understandable; making it two times running is not, and making it a third time is unforgivable!

Wouldn’t it be refreshing if we could get two candidates who address issues important to the electorate and pertinent to the status quo?

If we can’t get that in America, how can we get a president who is in tune with America’s condition?

If this is how it’s going to be, at least make it brief, maybe a week or two, and not the interminable two years + that it is.  I’m depressed and frustrated enough without it.

Why is there not a stock, one-sentence response to an attack that a candidate can utter that will say, in effect, “I respect my electorate’s need and desire to hear my ideas about the real issues and refuse to address your attempts to distract them and me.”

Why is it in America that a presidential campaign means the candidates don’t talk issues but attack and defend the attacks?  Thanks, MSM.  A one-week attack and defend campaign between the candidates would cost maybe a million or two, a great start to reforming campaign financing and stopping the money hemorrhaging.

We’re really sick.

A united Democratic party is needed to accomplish this task. Bill Clinton’s damning of Obama with faint praise does not help. The John Edwards “love child” story, if true, does not help. Hillary Clinton’s angling at the convention does not help. The staunch Obama supporters need to ask themselves: do you really want Senator Obama to win this election? If the answer is yes, you will need a very strong unified Democratic party, where all democrats and people who sympathize will get out and vote and make history. Right now that is not looking too good.
Forget the hype about new politics, there is no new politics, just the gut wrenching blood sport it has always been.
“The first duty of a politician is to get elected.”
WINSTON CHURCHILL
That is most certainly the task at hand.