Marie, no mention of the bribes we paid to reduce violence in Iraq.  What up wid dat?

Cyrena:  Proving yet once again just how very ignorant of facts you actually are.  You just spew lines and lines of endless garbage but never have the actual facts and always say you don’t have time to suppport the links to back up your bogus claims.

Obama’s Votes for Troop Funding

Within four months of being sworn in as a U.S. senator, Obama – in lock-step with fellow Senate Democrats – began a string of votes in favor of war-funding bills.

2005: Obama voted for Senate passage (Vote 109, April 21) of an emergency supplemental appropriations bill, which passed 99 to 0. He also voted for the final House-Senate compromise version of the same legislation (Vote 117, May 10), which passed 100 to 0.

Later that year additional war funds were contained in the regular Pentagon appropriations bill. Obama voted for the Senate version (Vote 254, Oct. 7), which passed 97 to 0 and also for the final compromise (Vote 366, Dec. 21), which passed 93 to 0.

2006: Obama supported another emergency supplemental appropriations bill, which included war funding and much else, voting for a cloture motion to end debate and schedule a vote (Vote 103, May 2). The measure passed 92 to 4, with four Democrats opposed for reasons other than war funding. He then voted for Senate passage (Vote 112, May 4). The bill was approved by a vote of 77 to 21, with only Republican opposed, and finally, Obama voted for the final House-Senate compromise version (Vote 117, June 15), which passed 98 to 1, with a single Republican voting against it.

Later in 2006, Obama supported the regular Pentagon appropriations bill, which included $50 billion in “contingency funding” intended for the first six months of war funding. He voted for Senate passage of that bill (Vote 239, Sept. 7), which passed 98 to 0, and also for the House-Senate compromise version (Vote 261, Sept. 29) which passed 100 to 0.

2007: Obama’s final vote for troop funding (Vote 147, April 26) was for an emergency supplemental appropriation that also included a call for withdrawal from Iraq. Obama issued a news release at the time, saying: “We must fund our troops. But we owe them something more. ... With my vote today, I am saying to the President that enough is enough.” The measure passed 51 to 46 and was vetoed.

•  “The news about Iraq in particular and foreign affairs in general has focused lately not on what is happening now but on what has gone on until now.”

Miss Marie is still ideologically stuck on one track. Or, maybe it’s just the short attention span. And, what is ‘lately’ anyway? In actuality, the focus on Iraq in particular and foreign affairs in general has been on Iraq withdrawal, (at least from Obama’s end) and determination from the hard core militarists (McSame) to stay.

The ‘news’ about foreign affairs in general, is the criticism by many, of Obama’s plan to increase operations in Afghanistan/Pakistan, and the fact that he hasn’t ‘fixed’ the 60-year old Israel/Palestine conflict yet.

The other foreign affairs ‘news’ that at least some people are paying attention to, that is going on NOW, is that even the Dick Bush thug regime has finally sent some ‘appeasers’ to talk to the Iranians, (or they did it on their own) even if it’s only to pay lip service to what Obama suggested way back when. The ‘’news” on Iraq is that Maliki and obviously the rest of the Iraqi Parliament is in agreement (on the record) with that withdrawal plan.

•  “..No one expects presidential candidates to be parties to such talks. But it should not be too much to expect McCain and Obama to weigh in with some detail on a pact, and how each would shape it…”
• 
Again Miss Marie misses the other half of what’s going on. What does she think Obama was doing in Iraq last week? Has she conveniently missed (or chosen to ignore) each and every postion he’s put forth on those details, whether in agreement or not? It would appear that it is Miss Marie who is focused on the terminology of ‘the surge’ as opposed to the rest of us, who are definitely looking ahead.

Yellowbird, the author of the book you mentioned is Nir Rosen. The Book (which includes much of the same information from his article, “Anatomy of a Civil War: Iraq’s Descent Into Chaos) is “In the Belly of the Green Bird.” I highly recommend it. But the lengthy article that gave way to the book is available (I think) on line at Boston Book Review.

http://bostonreview.net/BR31.6/rosen.php

The other book with that actual title “Descent Into Chaos” is also excellent, and is probably the one you’re referencing here, by Ahmed Rashid. (I say probably so as not to be confused by still another book with the same title by Charles Ferguson)

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/10/descent_into_chaos_ahmed_rashid_on

It would be really helpful for more Americans to get up to speed on the information that Rashid presents in his latest work, and reviewed with DemocracyNow at the above link. He makes the very important dot-connections to Pakistan that have been overwhelmingly ignore by the current regime in DC, and most of the American public.

Thanks for pointing that out.

~~~~~
By jersey girl, July 31 at 8:10 am #
dihey:  You’re right it doesn’t matter if he would have voted for it or not since he has supported it with his votes to fund it ever since. 
JG, make up your mind. Your partners in hate (McCain included) are criticizing Obama of exactly the opposite. NOT funding it. The truth lies in the middle. Obama has voted NO on a couple of the funding bills, and yes on one other. I don’t have time to search the specifics of each bill, because it’s unimportant to those of you who simply choose to continue this same rhetoric. It’s only worth mentioning because it’s a lie. He hasn’t voted ‘ever since’ to fund the wars.

Not only did the Iraq surge fail to improve the situation, the surge made things worse by abetting the ethnic cleansing of Sunnis. If things were improving, refugees would be returning to their homes, not leaving them.

John McCain’s position on the surge didn’t require any courage.  Besides being a committed U.S. imperialist, he had to support the surge if he wanted the Republican presidential nomination.

a man on Democracynow.org Pakistanian, wrote a book Descent into Chaos; can read info there; and he said the Al Quieda are nothing; few, & little; have no guns; etc; you are being painted a totally false picture; very upset over what shown to citizens of USA during Laura Bush’s visit; he said that the Taleban were many & were able to grow the crops (poppies) and get much $ & a far larger threat than the Al Quieda were; and the military stationed there KNEW THIS & were told to let them go their way; now, “suddenly” a lot more troops are going to be sent there; (to die, sad but true) deliberately on purpose planned by US Pentagon & White House to kill, maim & harm more citizens of the USA; why else would they deliberately on purpose NOT stop the drugs from being harvested & the guns may have even been sold to them by the USA; the only “shadowy” thing in the USA is our Gov, Pentagon, & Corp’s working hand n hand; and then if they do come back, they will be denied jobs, disability payments, etc; see youtube for the greatest swindle showing how even veterans from WW11 are being denied medical benefits; & pensions; yet: so much $ to illegals; “democracy means representatives to do the will of the people”; not liars, cheaters, fraud, maliciously criminal acts of violence even if in other countries towards it’s own citizens; you can also check on democracynow.org whistleblowers (from Army) where we deliberately targeted & took lives of journalists & again last night where we shot one on way to hospital; the terrorists are our Gov & Corp’s folks; wake up before it is to late!

Crimes against humanity should be added to the war crimes that Bush & Cheney are already wanted for: Congress (corrupt cesspool of criminals also) are the only ones who kept them from being so; they along with the Corp’s working hand in hand with them to DECEIVE and LIE & suppress news, & paint “false” pictures & give “false” reports: ALL need to be brought up on charges of genocide with the International Court of Criminal Behavior: genocide means INTENT: that can easily & readily be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt here in the USA & overseas; USA gov & corps working together: put out the LIE that all military personnel have mental problems; give political preference & patronage to immigrants; refusing & denying citizens of the USA benefits even disabled vets from this war; while giving “refugees” who are illegals brand new cars, trucks, money, gas vouchers, illegal citizenship papers cuz path of citizenship never followed; drivers licenses while harrassing citizens claiming we need Soc Sec & birth certs now; yet on public townhall meeting St legislatures say openly will give same to any “undocumenteds”; our Gov started the “anti vet” movement followed by Corps saying won’t hire vets; followed by credit card illegal charges, fees, & calls (calling 6 to 8 times a day every day) which I consider to be premeditated murder by harrassment & financial & emotional & psychologic stress; this is NOT made up on the spot but has been actively going on for years folks; disabled vets denied disability pay while set pricing on oil causes additional stress finanacial etc all on citizens; while they claim no $ for vets building brand new apartment complexs for illegals; other countries talking genocide by overrunning populated areas with immigrants & how Hitler did it & how it is being done today in USA made me several months ago start watching & trying to find out WHAT was going on in the country I was living in. Crimes against humanity & it’s own citizens; abuse & deliberately planned out long term harm to it’s own citizens’s; the “insurgents” in Iraq are trying to be FREE from the slavery that is far worse than Hussain ever was; sad but true.

Please the ‘Surge’ has not worked. Having went into a region we never belonged in with far too few militiary personnel and inadequate equipment- the ‘Surge’ was nothing more than putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound caused by Fucked up Oilmen.
the ‘surge’ has not worked- because most of the numbers are still there- if it had WORKED we’d be down to pre surge numbers Now! you can count something as successsful until you have ended the operation! Then add the 4 female suicide bombers this week and it appears the media is more than willing to count these unhatched chicks Too!
But what ahs been a resounding success is th ePurge that this war and the ‘We fucked up an dneed to remedy Surge’ have accomplished is sending US further into debt to foreign countries and killing afew thousand more people.
Get a clue the reason the Admin & mac are dragging their fet on withdrawling troops is 1) it has not been a success- little civil violence reprieve, and no real Political recounciliation and 2) They want to be in Iraq as a launch site for future attacks on Iran- the next oil Country to be captured by the Incs and their Royal M.E. Sponsors!
The Purge they have waged against US has been the only success they can claim- economic devastation and suppression.
This admin, their Oil buddies and the ancillary Corps who have aided them are all guilty of Treason, War crimes and Crimes against Humanity.Exxon just made 11.7 BILLION in Profits- and people are unable to afford food because of the increase related to fuel costs….Criminal intent and malice!

dihey:  You’re right it doesn’t matter if he would have voted for it or not since he has supported it with his votes to fund it ever since. 

However,having said that, that is another phrase I’m sick of hearing.  Considering his war-like rhetoric and his subsequent votes in the senate, I do truly believe it to be pure unadulterated bs.

Hyper: I didn’t mean to freak out at you.  It’s the phrase that drives me crazy.  Very few wars have been “noble” wars(is there such a thing?. They are more about conquest and cash than anything else.  Wars in which the lower and middle classes pay for with their dollars and their lives while the elite sit back and rake in the profits while laughing their asses off at we the “stupid” peasants.

Iraq: it was determined to remove Hussain from power in 1996 per Ron Paul & others; the 2 parties (dems & reps are the same no difference again & again & again this is brought to our attention); watching PrisonPlanet news: & the Truth Rising looks like our Pentagon & Gov actually were behind the Twin Towers; and if you check it out the man who prosecuted Manson wrote a book for prosecuting Bush: blacklisted by media: as he states in there Bush consistently used Hussain & the twin towers attack in the same sentences & 90% of the folks going to war THOUGHT it was retaliation against the twin tower attack; amazingly enough, when OTHER COUNTRIES said a plane HIT a building & IT DID NOT COLLAPSE like the twin towers did, & the “fuel” in airplanes only burn 7 minutes; and the “pentagon” powers that KNEW of this were outside doing a “test” about the possibility of a plane attack at the EXACT TIME of the attack; pretty amazing facts folks; don’t say yeah or nay; just check out the FACTS, & YOU decide; remember: our Gov has been known to LIE repeatedly, & to DECEIVE repeatedly. How low will they go to get THEIR way? Other nations know: do YOU? doesn’t matter who gets the election the outcome is the same: as it was for Hussain; long time goals for countries with no regard for the people folks; look at Iran: the USA armed & spoke with Hussain promising him many things: then helped him take out the Gov there & put in the Shah; when he was overthrown, it was a matter of time before the folks who use our men & women as cannon fodder & throw away like refuse after repeated lies to THEM (see where broken promises to military even re medical care; only the PENTAGON PARASITES in power get the big bucks; & overspend to cover up THEFT, CORRUPTION, & GREED; as one senator said: we are there for our purposes of course: which are: previously being able to fill gas tanks for 55 cents; now being billed $1.36 a gallon; & the people for the 1st time ever are “being taxed”; ha ha ha don’t think they should be taxed isn’t that funny; Same Corp’s there as here; & raking in big bucks to be laundered back; figure it out folks! claiming fighting there for “freedom” for the people; hah! it is SLAVERY the same as here in USA with the SAME program & purposes & the SAME set up in Gov; called dictatorship & hundreds of times worse than Hussain, whom they wish was alive again cuz while he was bad, the USA & Corps situation is abundantly far worse than he was; having a Taj Mahall set up (huge) with 3000 slaves working for them; contractors getting paid $9,000 a month; journalists being targeted & killed by US military under orders; WHO are the true terrorists? check it out on democracynow.org; war & peace report; 70% of the World knows what is going on; do AMERICANS?

Jersey Girl: I cannot retroactively predict whether Obama would have voted for or against the Iraq war resolution. It does not matter to me though because he voted several times for funding the war. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that congressional funding for a specific war, in this particular case the bombing of Serbia, is equivalent to a congressional declaration of war. It is puzzling to me why Dennis Kucinich, who was a co-petitioner of the suit against Clinton, never mentioned this. Unfortunately, once President Bush received the first installment for the war in Iraq, that war became legal as far as our Constitution is concerned. The war and occupation remain legal unless the Congress passes a new resolution which overturns the earlier one.

Yes indeed! It’s the war stupids!

In fact, it’s not one war, but two simultaneous wars that have been raging for longer than the WWII now. Two wars of aggression, based on misguided policies, lies, weapons of mass deception and pure evil.

And the two stupid warmongers candidates only differ as to which of these two wars we must win first; when in fact there are no real winners in these two wars; only three loser nations whose citizens are paying the ultimate price of blood and treasure at the altar of medieval chauvinist warmongers allied with merchants of death!

jersey girl: I’m not saying we should sacrifice anything for this war, i was pointing out that we are fighting a war by proxy since there has been no draft and contractors outnumber our troops there. Hence the next line about people thinking putting a stupic magnet on their car is being patriotic…

And trust me i’m an English transplant to America, I know all about sacrifice for a just war…

Hyperion: “It’s not like the American people have been asked to sacrifice a single damn thing for this war.”

I really hate that phrase.  Why the hell should we sacrifice ANYTHING for a “war” based on lies???

Why should we expect Obama and McCain to do anything other than what they are doing right now?

There is such a black out on footage of what it is actually like on the ground most people don’t have the damndest clue of what’s going on and the everyday horrors the iraqi people and our soldiers see evey day. When you factor in the all the problems at home the average American doesnt give a damn about foreigners being blown up while trying to buy food let alone the interactions between our gov’t and the Iraqi gov’t. It’s not like the American people have been asked to sacrifice a single damn thing for this war. That’s why they think that by putting yellow ribbons on their car they are being patriotic…

“Obama in 2002 took what was a highly popular position against the war while he was representing a liberal swath of Chicago in the Illinois Legislature. Obama not only had no influence over whether or not to go to war; he didn’t even have to cast a vote.”

No, he didn’t have to cast a vote on the war.  If he did, considering his vote on fisa and his war hawking tour all across the country. I’d say he is lying.  He would have definitely voted for it.