I should explain some stuff. Obama’s is “just fine”—your standard politician—no, in the last 2-3 mos., he’s shown himself to be worse than the avg. (Guns, death penalty, FISA, Iraq—OUT IMMEDIATELY—I mean, l6 mnos….; is he “better than McCain? Yeah, probably. But I dont honestly think we even know. The “fans”, the press, NO ONE has demanded ANYTHIGN of him. He seems to be a “nice guy”. He’s smart (maybe we need a NON Blue Blood for a change, eh??_)He has “a beautiful famiLy”. OK—now, can you honestly (go back to 1999 in your mind) say that most people did NOT think these things abou tDubya? Is Obama like W?? NO!! Nobody (so far) is!!NOT Bush or McCain is not a qualification. I would be ALOT better than W. Everyone says Dubya is “stupid”—no he’s not. He’s worse than useless. He’s an asshole, murderer, spoiled—I cant say how much I detest him. I would like a person who is/has been POOR before. I’d like someone who went to BumFuck State. I’d like someone not a multi-milllionaire. I’d like public finanacing so more people could run. I want an END to the two-party system of aristocrats. I want a return to eh COMMONWEALTH. I want the oil cos. and private industry OUT of our public parks, our “wars” (and us out of them too!), our disaster recovery, our public schools and our CHURCHES out of our govt! I dont dislike Obama “cause he’s a Muslim” (way to win over Muslims~!)or he “doesnt talk to Chavez” (I wishhe would!). I am disgusted with big-mouth “Christians” like Rev. Wright , “Charter” schools that bring back segregation and teach that there were baby dinosaurs o teh Ark (!!), “faith based” initiatives (“see how well the charities are doing in N.O. and Baghdad? Now we can be relieved of our governmental responsibilities! Cut out that prog.”) I want CHANGE not “changeeeo, hopeeeeooo, bull shittiiooo”. Know what I mean?? Peace! OK? I just wanted better, and after 8 yrs of W I thought we had a right to expect it. Everyoen says they are tired o Ohio deciding the elections—(so am I!) But, I"m also tired of IOWA and NH (I used to live there—dont tell me either state is representative!) declaring it over and teh DLC throwing out delegates.So, Obama doesnt “need Ohio, Pa, Mich, FL, etc.” (That’s what his “fan” I talked to before the primary said! Its not liike I havent tried—i sent him a 3 pg. list of things to coverin Ohio to win—no, they’re gonna take the Deep sOUTH—Ga., Ala., Miss., etc.—sure , good luck. If you make it known that yo dont give a damn about the working class—why in the hell woudl they vote for you? How wil things ever get any better?? I worked with moveon.org in 2004-06. Now, the DLC doesnt even want my help in the locals. That’s fascist—I’ve tried, and they wont/ I didnt leave the Dems—they leftme!!

Kdelph: ‘If Dems cant landslide it after 8 yrs f W—they should disband.I might vote for Obama—if everyone would stop telling me to”

Amen K !!  I’m sick of people telling me that it will be MY fault if McCain wins. It will be nobody’s fault but Obama’s if McCain wins.  I didn’t tell obama to be a war monger, I didn’t tell obama to destroy the fourth amendment and I didn’t tell obama to take money from the likes of goldman sachs, lehman brothers and the nuke industry.  I also didn’t tell Obama to praise Ronald Reagan either! Gimme a break…..

I say vote your conscience K and don’t let anyone talk you out of what your gut tells you

Kdelph: I’m still here !  And I’m still voting for Nader.  Jim I don’t agree about the supreme court. It was the dems who brought us Alito and Roberts with a few praising them. Do you really think Obama will pick a left leaning appointee considering the way he’s been campaigning? I see him picking at best a centrist and at worst a right leaning centrist.  After all he’s making noise about more war and when he voted for the fisa bill(also patriot act) I lost all hope that he is anything but the rebirth of ronald reagan who he made a point to praise not that long ago.  Besides, the republicans won’t let a left leaning judget get by them.  They aren’t the wimps the dems are in that regard.  So I see the supreme court thing a red herring.

Obama is not who he says he is.  He’s nothing about change and all about maintaining the status quo. He passed that fisa bill because he wants the same power bush has amassed for himself. Honestly, I believe Obama and McCain to be two sides of the same counterfeit coin. 

I’m done with the co-conspirators aka the democratic party.  I’m voting for a man who exemplifies everything I want in a president..Ralph Nader. The stranglehold of the duopoly has to end somewhere.  For me it ends in ‘08.  Glenn Greenwald’s article on this subject was fantastic and explains perfectly what I’m feeling about the dems and the upcoming election. If you haven’t read it already check it out.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/07/29/d emocracy/

PS:  I go to rawstory all the time for news articles but never paid checked out the comments section. I will most certainly do that now.  Thanks Jim !

Jim C—-It was not an email (I havent been online thaT long—my sister says i assume too much and forget there’s no inflection online—)it was a letter (handwritten) to the Dayton City Paper—you may not even get it up there. It’s online—but this was back in January. I wrote that I wasnt voting for Obama (I was rooting for Edwards then) for reasons that had nothign to do with his non-European name nor skin color (somone had written a letter there that pretty much said everyone that supported anyone else was stupid or racist—).It was lack of a good HEALTH CARE plan (try Medicaid for a coupla mos…) and that he wasnt very “firm” (dont remember EXACTLY) on things—I didnt care about his looks, his religion, his hoops, his “farting in his sleep” nor his “beautiful wife”—I wanted to know what he planned to do with this Third World status we’re falling into—well, no—the neo-cons pushed us… The editor called me and said he liked it—could he print my name—I have an unusual Scandanavian-Am. name—easy to find in Dayton phone book. But, naively, I figured, its my opinion, and reasonable questions, right? WRONG! apparantly. I got 2 snail mails with no retutrn addresses or names. They were cruel, nasty, and assujmed some terribl sshit about me that my black c-workers would find very surprising (I’ve had recent surgery—my fourth—so I dont go out much—all I see for wks. is ex co-workers—we worked with disabled, so they understand. I dont realy want friends arund telling me “how great it looks”. It doesnt. I DID think about Obama—I thought about Gore. He shouldve fought harder. I campaigned for Kerry, even thought I didnt like him much. I’ve been a Dem since I was l8, until SP-USA decided we had to decide. In 2007, I went back, but voteed in the Primary. I thought6 Hillary might deliver on healht care. I’ve worked with Viet vets who died in the VA waiting for care—its just not right, period. And liberals (lol) who dont support healt care for all should be ashamed.I stand by that, if Dems cant landslide it after 8 yrs f W—they should disband.I might vote for Obama—if everyone would stop telling me to—I tend to be contrary that way—lol. Peace. Rus—sure , progressives and Dems are “bigoted and hateful”—when did GOP have a minority candidate?? When?? Get back to me, OK? No, Rice and Watts dont count! I KNOW Dubya is mentally disabled, but he’s NOT a minority (unfortunately). Now there’s Larry Craig—its hard to respect a gay person that wont come out and always has to PAY FOR IT!! Doyou?

They’re just trying to help the poor filthy rich and those whiny selfish workers complain , can you believe it ........................................................... ..................Companies Tap Pension Plans
To Fund Executive Benefits
Little-Known Move
Uses Tax Break Meant
For Rank and File
By ELLEN E. SCHULTZ and THEO FRANCIS
August 4, 2008; Page A1

At a time when scores of companies are freezing pensions for their workers, some are quietly converting their pension plans into resources to finance their executives’ retirement benefits and pay.

In recent years, companies from Intel Corp. to CenturyTel Inc. collectively have moved hundreds of millions of dollars of obligations for executive benefits into rank-and-file pension plans. This lets companies capture tax breaks intended for pensions of regular workers and use them to pay for executives’ supplemental benefits and compensation.

KDelphi , First , I’m not a big Obama supporter , but I can give you two reasons to vote for him . 1. the supreme court ( and federal ) , any more right wing justices and this country is done for . So whether you’re pro Obama or not you would have a hard time arguing he wouldn’t make much better court picks and that is huge . 2. Not voting for Obama is the same as a vote for mccain , that goes for throwing your vote away on a third candidate also . So , if you want to wake up the day after the election and find out we are going to be under the tender care of john mccain for the next four years because you and others either didn’t vote or through yours away , I can’t stop you . But I would urge you to think about it .

Rus7355 , well , I’m glad you cleared that up , and I thought you just had your panties in a wad , silly me . As to your ignorant and petulent comment about those nasty liberal sites , that is at best comical . The posters who get vile and nasty on the site I was refering to are the right wing trolls . Feel free to check it out , pay special attention to posters , Kevin , Frank M , red neck red state and so many more . You can probably find them on some of your favorite sites also, contributing to the high minded love fest you refer to . They’re but a few of the quasi fascists I was speaking of . I’ve also been to some of those reasoned , enlightened right wing sites you mentioned , I can see how you would just blend right in . You could spew your incomplete cherry picked statistics and make factually challenged statements until your little conservative hearts content , no doubt cheered on and unchallenged . Here’s one Russ , if you can bring yourself back to the original discussion and stop throwing your little tantrum . You attempted to show that the top 1% made about 20% of the wages , which is kind of true , but only with a very selective use of the numbers and ommission of other relevent facts . Did you ever check what the bottom 50% of the wage earners make ? Less than 20% of the total wages Russ . If you would like to get back to the actual disussion and stop pouting I’d be glad to Russ and I’m glad that you at least understood that I made my point .

KDelphi , you sent a letter to the editor , of the Dayton daily news ? If so I read it , I read them all . How did you get your e-mail address published , or did you just sign your name and they figured it out ? Not to rub it in , but what were you thinking , though I have to admit , I made a similar mistake once . I accidently posted my e-mail address on a financial site in a comment , I didn’t realize it was optional and would be published . The e-mail box was soon filled with spam ,  it took me a while to figure out what happened , luckily the address I used was a throwaway I use when I have to give it . Out of curiosity , I take it you wrote an anti Obama letter , though I guess it wouldn’t matter , you would get hammered by the followers of whoever you skewered if they could get your address .

Just checking to see if Jersey Girl, JimC, or others werew still using this thread….today ias Obana’s birthday!! And, our dear Gov, Strickland, Jim C! They are going to be doing phone bAnks all day long—-just curious (they asaked me to help—I’m out of town anyway—-and its such a “JC Superstar” mentalilty—they wanted me to bring stuff toa BAake Sale once before—-I’m a good cook (blu3e ribbons at county fairs in the past!), I cant afford to bakwe for a multi-millionaire right now! Honestly, at least, in places like Ohio, I think people have been “Obama-ed” half to death!A Town Hasll Mtg. whewre he would actually answer all questions, on the stump, wqould be REALLY helpful—this recieves screeches like, “How can we submuit our babe to these open….”  BABE! WHOSE Babe?!@ Or ’ “But he is the ‘the blessed child”  “saying cant i eat my waffles in peace, when I prefer organic egg whites” and “cant i just be president” (in the same vein, I suppose).And, when he gets done—go smoke a pack and half of Marlboros and chew on arugula for teeth cleansing, naturally!!!! Its SO bizarre. Jim C—I have a favor to request, if youre around—convince me that I need to vote for Obama—-why? Seriouly-“fire me up!”. LOL “Coups de, ‘08! “Etat-why wait??

I’m over at my ex’s daughters to see my ex mother-in-law in the hos….fun! Its feels wierd, but I still love them, and she still thinks I’m her daughter-in-law, I think, even though I’ve told her—it doesnt matter. I really like my ex-stepdaughter, anyway. I’ll go to that website soon. I have to get my email name changed—its my ful name (which is unusual) and people sem to find my emai box and fill it with threats. I got a bunch of unsigned ones from Obamaniacs when I sent a Letter to the Ed. of the Dayton City aper! Not ONE of them signed their name and put a return add! That;s when I decided I didnt watnt o support Obama, even If my choice couldnt win—it was so craopy and cowardly—so was the “Yes we can!” drowning peopel out at the town mtg. the other day—remind me of Dubya’s “USA!” crap! But, even relatives are on me to vote Obama—I dunno. I REALLY like Nader or McKinney and people that are mad about me not voting Obama are ones that votd Nader in 2000! I’m gonna go wartch “Big Brother” with Wendy (YUK!) LOL

JG and JD , Raw story , you’ve never been there ? It’s a good site , one of the best for news . Their boards are for the most part unregulated and the stories tend to circulate more quickly , they keep threatening to start registration , but so far they haven’t . It can get ugly on occasion , racist , sexest , vulgar , crude and insults almost rise to an art form depending on the topic , a lot of the posters over there would be banned from most boards . There is no such thing as a sensitive topic , sometimes you have to wonder if some asylum is giving computer privilages and trolls abound . One thing for sure , over there you’re not in Kansas anymore . Another thing for sure , Russ wouldn’t care for it one bit , he thinks I was being mean to him . The reason I said ” they don’t have registration yet ” is because someone occasionally wanders over , makes a comment , gets them handed to him in no uncertain terms , then complains about it and they threaten to start registration . If you’ve never been there , check it out . You’ll see a few familiar names , Independent is a regular poster . You may get lulled a bit , again depending on the topics and whose posting . But if you stick around you will see what I mean .

Kdelph..yea! I wanna go too. Do tell Jim. But I want to do more than watch

Amen Where is this no holds bareed site? I’m not sure I want to get back in a net slam dance—but I “like to watch”

Rus7355 , actually , my original reply had little or nothing to do with Obamas tax proposals , I am a luke warm Obama supporter , his views on fisa , faith based tax give aways and his propensity to flip off his base leave me cold . I will be voting against mccain more so than for Obama . What we presently have are a very conservative party that is essentially the political arm of corporate power and a conservative party that has been leased by corporate power , I agree with Nixon a 50% top rate is about right . I also believe corporations pay far to little . From the 50s to the late 70s they paid about 40% of the taxes and did just fine thank you . In fact if you are into history you will find that the country as a whole was thriving when the top rate was 90% and corporations carried about half of the tax load , go figure . What I took issue with in your original post were the comments about europe etc . The comment about how they are worried about china and russia showed an amazing ( I’ll be nice here ) misunderstanding of world views . It has been well established that the europeans ( in poll after poll ) and most of the rest of the world when asked who is the biggest threat to world peace and the most dangerous player on the world stage it isn’t the russians , it isn’t the chinese or the arabs . They’re worried about us . They see us as jingoistic and frankly dangerous , can you blame them ? It’s not the russians or the chinese invading other countries and inflaming the middle east , it’s us . You seem to literally sneer at the very idea that europe isn’t arming to the teeth , which begs the question , why are we ? To fight saudies with box cutters ? . You might want to get a copy of Eisenhowers ” cross of iron ” speech , he saw this comming . As far as the cradle to grave comment , to some of us thats the mark of a humane society . What a concept , that the citizens of a country would prefer a government that treated it’s citizens with the same concern and compassion as a family would . By the way , the countries that are the most liberal and have the closest to what you would refer to as a ” welfare state ” are also the happest and most satisified with both their lives and government . Go to the other end of the spectrum and you’ll find the most conservative countries arn’t quite so content ( been to a stoning or amputation lately ) , those are your true conservative values , punish , punish , punish and repress , unless your rich of course .  I’m also sure business couldn’t thrive unless it’s allowed to prey on the population like wolves on sheep . We’ve turned from a paragon of freedom and democracy to a torturing , pillaging out of control world pariah . And as for bush being ” a swaggering cowboy ” oh please , if it wern’t for daddy the only thing that callous little creep would be doing is asking ” do you want fries with that ” . To sum up , you mentioned that we have different world views , you might be right . I believe the government should make sure that all of it’s citizens have the neccessities , housing , healthcare , education and the peace of mind that goes with knowing that if you fall you won’t be left or abandoned . That the well born , well off , corrupt and just plain greedy will be kept in check . I gather you’re more for a wild west law of the jungle let greed rule and if you can’t keep up , tough luck kind of guy . Just remember , the west was a cruel place before it was civilized and the jungle is a forbidding place unless your an animal or wish to live like one . Perhaps we can pick up similar discussion on another thread , this one seems to be about spent . You must try to be less sensitive though . Part of it may be I am used to posting on more aggressive bare knuckles boards . I noticed Independent posted on this thread , he would understand , where we usually post it’s a brusing , no holds barred take no prisoners fray .

Now Rus is capitulating after being completely out of clever stuff—you are clegver though! I hope it gets you thru the next Great Depression, created by Oil Boys—not men. Men work a living as do decent women. Ihope yu come to realize that these peoel do NOT have the best interests of the uS in mind. If they did, they wouldnt have houses all over the world to escape to from teh Hague to. Check out Dubya’s new island off Dubai—maybe he’ll invite yu there sometime. Just liek Obama is gonna invite everybody to the White House for basketball—NOT!

Jim C—I know where yure talking about…guess what?? I got Rus to respnd to me!! It’s true! I’m the luckiest girl in the world~!

Yes—its been my dream ever since we met—to solicit a response from you!! Actually , this was an intelligent thread (a rarity nowadays) for awhile—but, I guess nothin’ good lasts forever….Thanks for fulfiling my dream…youre such a great guy—what an honor..

Rus7355 , the ” facts ” you gave were quite selective and incomplete , conservatives love to go on about ” income tax rates ” as they apply to regular income ( wages ) . The ” opinions ” I gave you were right out of the tax code , long term capital gains are taxed at 15% and that’s the bracket the wealthy and well born move their money and income into . Do you really need references ? If you do your own taxes you should already know , do you have an IRA or similar retirement account ? If you do the whole concept behind that is to 1. use compounding interest to grow the account 2. put the funds in pre tax ( except with a Roth ) then when they’re drawn on in retirement they are taxed at the the long term capital gains rate , like the very rich do with the bulk of their earnings . The rich are simply able to game the system in that and many other ways . Fica is the largest tax bite for most people and the average citizen pays it on their entire salary , the very well off only pay on the first hundred thousand or so . Since it is only paid on ” income ” the wealthy have figured out a vast amount of ways to defer income thus turning it into capital gains avoiding both the real tax rate and fica . Its all about how and when you get paid as to how much you actually pay in taxes . Since you seem to be getting your facts from the big book of conservative numbers , look this one up . What is the total percentage of income is paid by the various tax brackets . I mean every thing , sales tax , property tax , license fees which are also a tax etc etc . What you’ll find is the very wealthy have figured out how to avoid taxes most of us pay , lease a car and charge it to the company for instance . Then the company gets to write it off as a business expense giving said rich guy a basically free car at taxpayers expense that also includes insurance , tags , everything . Case in point , you may remember early in the bush admistration when they had tax credits for hummers and other suv’s . This allowed companys and anyone who could figure out how to charge them off as a business expense to have a free suv essentially paid for by the taxpayers . They even called it ” the hummer loophole ” . KDelphi might know of a tax rightoff right here in town . The big mcmansion on stroop just past southern blvd with the dolfin statues around the fountain in front . NCR originally owned that and charged it off as a business expense because they let visiting bigshots use it . Nice game if you can afford to play it . Well , I’m feeling a bit emotional so I think I’m going to go out and cut the grass . Oh , one more thing ”  The facts I shared here regarding the overall tax bill paid by the upper, middle and lower socio-economic classes comes directly from the IRS.” What you don’t seem to get is that the total tax ” bill ” is offset by tax rebates , depreciation , right offs and other games and loopholes . The money they pay in with one hand doesn’t count the money their taking back with the other . While it may be easy to figure out how much the kid that works at Mcdonalds pays in taxes it’s much more difficult to put a real number on the big boys . They are masters at smoke and mirrors , holding up an apparently big tax bill but failing to mention how much the government gave them back .

I have to visit a sick relative (stupid thing to do, right Rus? Yeah, not self serving cause they dont have any $$). Try to use the time constructively Rus. Go to Wickipedia and look up some REAL stat. Or call a Statistics Prof. at a college that isnt based on the internet or called “Messiah” or “Liberty Bible Baptist”. Avoid any schiool with Pat Robertson ior Ashcroft teaching there. Better yet, go join the Marines, and you can go to school, if you survive—you believe in the cause so much, if you wont pay for it—go fight it! No, I wouldnt wish that on anyone. BBs

LOL!!!! Rus, Rus, Rus../..if I wanted shit from you I’d cut off your head and scoop it out! You have been “schooled” (but seeem unable to comprehend) that statistics can say whatever you want them to! In terms of capital gains tax, PERSONAL income tax, estate tax, etc., the super rich are paying less than they have since the 1920s—and you know what happened then—wait—do you?? How old are you? Did you go to school..I used to work with the mentally disabled. But most of them KNEW when they were being screwed and complained! You must be !) really rich and selfish as a psycho-boy 2)part of the Bush/Cheney/Rummy/Delay/Ashcroft/Saud/mafioso group of Skull and Bones variety , who believe God wants you to be a millionaire—God (if there is one) did not invent money. If you’re a Christian, Jesus said to “GET THE MONEY OUT OF HIS FATHER’S HOUSE!” (ie: faith-based intitiatives and no child’s behind left). You have been taught that, in fact, the rich cheat, hire great tax attornies and dont give a damn what happens to New Orleans, Baghdad, Afghanistazn or even YOU—unless youre one of the above. Daisy, crawl back into your money and bury your head in a pool…the ghost of Fitzgerald says youre an asshole. You thinkthat the cream rises to the top, but..it isnt only HOPE that floats! Have a SUPER day!  ; 0   I hope youre better looking tha your soul—I’m so tired of people like you—BUT your time is coming to an end. I was SO glad to hear about Stevens and when Kay Hutchison said, “Its no fun being in the minority”....booooohooo. Cry me a river. You never cry for anybody else. The stock mkt is the US’s “Shock and Awe”. Second one will be when the poor decide not to take it anymore. Viva Amerika Libre! (Not “scary”—-just sick of it)

Jersey Girl—Nader/Gonzales ‘08 to prevent Third World status of US! Subjigation to Big Oil and Chinese govt (the peopel are OK). It is TIME folks! Havent we had enough of this crap? If you havent, you dont care abou tyour country or you are ignorant of the facts…

Trickle down economics is “piss on the poor”! The neo-cons have worm out “gay marriage” ( how they won Ohio in 2004!—J.Kenneth Blackqwwell), guns (Obama now agrees with them), abortion (they see that their nominees dont do what they send them there to do anyway, cause all they care about is MONEY!! Check out NOW and Bill Moyers last night on pbs.org if youdoubt it)—so—divide up poor whites and black (old as the hills), and “Drill here , drill now”! Yeah, right on the only US coral reef in Fla. Should help the tourist industry alot—I used to scuba dive (still caN—cant afford it). We need to take the subsidies back fromt eh oil cos, and subsidize elec. cars and hybrids for the poor. Stop subsidizing people that dont need it!@

Rus7355 , Interesting , you’ve stopped debating the subject altogether . You also fail to explain exactly what it is my mind is blind to and why I think as I do , some feat for someone who doesn’t know me . In fact you’ve abandened any attempt at defending your positions .  If you look at your last three posts not one word about the original subject . I’ll tell you what , I’ll consider anger managment class’s if you’ll explain why it’s reasonable for Exon to get tax breaks when they have had the most profitable two years in the history of the world ? Or why it’s fair for billionaires to pay a smaller percentage of their total income in tax’s ( of all kinds , not just income tax ) than somebody that wears a paper hat at work ? Why it’s OK for the likes of Paris Hilton , george bush , steve forbes and their ilk to have a 15% total tax rate on their trust funds and pay no fica tax ? Why taxes haven’t been raised to support a unneccessary war that is only benefiting oil companys and military contractors , for the first time in history I might add . Just trying to loosen you up dude . While you say you know why I think like I do , I have to admit , I have no idea why you think like you do . Your entire original post was nothing more than a defense of the ” trickle down theory ” the most thoroughly disproved , discredited and disasterous economic policy in history , bar none . I won’t hold my breath waiting for a cogent response , I’ll assume it has something to do with my being angery.

This just in:

Another Bank Bites The Dust

Federal regulators closed Florida’s First Priority Bank on Friday, marking the eighth bank failure of the year.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/01/news/companies/FDIC _bank_closure/

KDelph:  Nader/Gonzalez ‘08 !!

Sigh….it was fun while it lasted. Maybe see you guys at nader.org? At least check it out—out with Boner!!

Ah, Rus—some young guy who still believes that someday he’ll be rich and that wil make him happy above all else…Jim C—I was making fun—it is obvious yu are a capitalist. I am not—but the type of capitalism you descrbe is one that we can al live with. There is NO Democracy without a middle cl;ass. If we dont regulate the greed, we’ll be a Third World Country, if we’re not already FUBAR.Health care and housing are already sub-par for the majority.If this doesnt change the Capts, if INdustry should worry about a coups de ‘etat, I’m not sure thei generation is willing to take it as easil7 as the Viet Vets. In Vietnam, at least the rich were pAYING for the war and the poor were fighting it (w/ a few exceptions) This is the first war thatr is paid for and fought, largely by the poor. It is criminal and th4e “administration” should be treated as such—indigted for war crimes. Impeached. But the Dems dont have the balls. They wont do things that “shock teh conscience”?? You havwe to assume a conscience—I see none present. No, didnt asee about Delphi—maybe I’ve seem so much I dont pay atention to it anymore!!

KDelphi , I’m not ” anti capitalist ” , I just understand economics and that unbridled greed is toxic . A market that is unregulated is like allowing a four year old to play with matchs , no good comes from it . I am also a Keynesian , he understood that order must be kept for business to thrive . The best environment for business is when there is a large middle class who are well paid and prosperous , they are who buy goods and services , without them the economy stalls ( who’s going to buy there crap ) . You also have to keep the worst instincts of business in check or they will foul up everything for everybody with selfish self interest and raw greed . What conservatives really yearn for are the good old days when there were aristocrats and serfs . They find the idea of a middle class that has any say over the ” upper ’ class’s is an abomination . To them they are better than and should be served by the lower class’s who are destined to be worker units and cannon fodder . In other words Calvinism . I also believe that no one should be left behind or out . If we who are well off by luck , labor or wits and have to pay higher taxes to make sure everyone is cared for , fine . That is what a civil humane society does . Dog eat dog is for animals , not men . What these ” wild west ” types don’t get is the idea was to civilize the west , not visa versa . so , am I a capitalist , yes , but a civilized one . Delphi was in the paper today , did you see the article ?

Rus7355 , I didn’t make any ” excessive stock earnings ” I took huge risks and paid what was due ( though I will admit I avoided the AMT . legally of course , or rather my accountant did ) . I have taken a beating so far this year , but I’m a big boy and nobodys going to bail out my losses . What ” personal attacks ” ? You think I’m emotional and angry ( I notice you didn’t bother to challenge my points ) and I think you’re , shall we say , misinformed , misguided or both plus you really don’t understand what your talking about . I will admit I can sometimes go for the jugular when I get in a debate with someone spewing misleading rightwing garbage , but hey , nobodys perfect . As far as ” my opinion ” , If I give opinion I’ll make that clear , what I gave you are facts , easily checked , as I stated Gates sr agrees and Warren Buffet has said the same thing . I’m sure you remember when he said ” something is very wrong when I pay a lower tax rate than my secretary ” . If there are errors in my post , please , point them out . You’ll find I’m quite careful to have my facts straight and I never regurgitate talking points or state opinion as fact , unlike some . So I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings , but if you toss nonsense out on boards sometimes you get taken to task for it .

Jim:  Bravo! Well stated.

Russ: Calling people too emotional when they are making perfectly valid points that you can’t answer is a lame ass excuse, mister. 

If you are pleased with the state of our union today than you are either incredibly stupid or a nazi in training or most probably both.

Wow, Jim C.—youre my kind of capitalist—an “anti-capitalist” capitalist!! lol.seriously, its not working capitalists that are the main prob. The wealthiest selfish pigs did almot NOTHING to get where they are, and if they had to compwete with the rest of us—theyd be broke,.Thaniks for fleshing out the stats…I cant stand them. Anyway…reading the other posts , can I recommend Naomi Klein’s “Shock Doctrine”—I’m reading it now. I was reading it in the drs offic to day, and he came itn and i was crying—-about how little these people really care about youi & me, the “Am. way” (right!), freedom. the soldiers, the civilians, and how far they will go with their global agenda.Also, “In Defense of Food”. Theyre on sale at Amazon or Credo (former Working Assets phone service—they give 1% to charitable causes you get to pick and free Ben & Jerry’s, if you want. Not much, but it beats nothing…

Rus7355 , well , you proved one thing , if you want to play with numbers and cherry pick statistics you can make them say pretty much anything you want . So lets just keep it real simple . The richest 2% of the population do pay over half of the ” income ” taxes , that is correct , but , they also control over 70% of the countries wealth and ( gag ) earn over 40% of the wages . We currently have the largest disparity in wealth since the 1920s . While the wealthy do pay more in ” income taxes ” their total actual tax contribution is far less . They pay only limited fica taxes , the wealthy almost always figure out how to write off expenses the rest of us have to pay , cars , travel , meals , vacations , various depreciations , home offices and on and on and on . You are also using a standard conservative ruse , you only refer to ” income ” taxes . Allow me to explain your error . Lets say a conservative ( we’ll call him chimpy ) earns , oh $500.000 a year in regular income ( wages ) he will pay about 35% at his top rate on everything over around $60.000 , wow , poor chimpy . But say chimpy gets , oh , one million in stock options , defered of course and another two million in long term ( held over a year ) dividends on stocks , bonds or other investment instruments held over a year . Do you know what his rate is on the three million , 15% period , thats it . So please , go cry for the poor abused rich on someone elses shoulder . I understand such things bub , I am a long time invester and a wage earner . In 2006 I made around six times as much from my stock portfolio than from my wages . I paid around 27% I believe on ” income” and 15% on long term capital gains which was much , much more . I also get tired of the tired bs about how our poor corporations are so over taxed , they always whine about the socalled 35% rate , yeah , but what they leave out is that none of them pay that rate . Do you know that many of our largest corporations not only pay 0 taxes but many actually get rebates . Corporations today pay less than 7% percent of total taxes and seldom pay at a real rate of more than 20% . I was watching some oil company exec telling his tale of woe the other day and he claimed his company was paying over 40% in taxes , pure bullshit , the real number is also less than 20% and thats only if you don’t figure in the rebates , breaks and rediculious depreciation allowances they get . I understand such things as I am heavily invested in oil , oilfield equipment and drillers including PBR,BHI,CNQ and SLB to name a few , my other investments are mostly high tech small caps . So go spew your disingenuous stats and misleading numbers to someone else who doesn’t understand such things , like say most poor stupid middle class republicans who swallow such crap hook line and sinker . If you want to argue the points I made there are others who can back me up and feel the same way , Bill Gates sr , the late Percy Ross , Warren Buffet , Ted Turner and Bill Gates jr to name but a few . As for yor laughable ( or pathetic ) comments about global warming , you may want to debate that with T Boone Pickens and the world scientific community . You made the comment that ” I seem angery and emotional ” , well , maybe . But I’d rather be either than ignorant and illinformed . Yep , I suppose I am emotional , anyone who isn’t angery at’s whats been going on in our country either isn’t paying attention , gets their information from , oh , say , rush limbaugh or has their head planted firmly up their ass .

webb: I don’t think you’re crazy at all. Everything you said is true. It’s just hard to implement it all though I have been working on it.

My b/f and I always say we’re gonna go find a spot in the mountains somewhere away from all the madness but I would have to drag the entire family with me and I don’t think they’d go peacefully. lol

JG, Can it be stopped???

I dunno.  I do think there are many things one can do to help lessen the impact on themselves and their circle of friends & relatives. 

These disaster capitalists have thought about it long & hard and have plenty of reforms to stuff down our throats when chaos becomes the order of the day.  And likely the sheeple will bend over & comply for the most part.  Hope to see you at the labor camp.

Some of the things i suggest may not go over well with many people.  Do know that i am practicing what i preach.  At least you’ll get a good idea of how crazy i am.

Head for the hills.

Get out of the banks and federal reserve notes.  Keep enough on hand to pay the bills, move whatever savings you have into physical possession of silver & gold.  Because there is less silver than gold around…  There is less than an ounce of silver to go around to everyone in the world.  So find a reputable coin dealer.  It is easy to go back & forth between currency & PM’s once you get the hang of it.  Suggest you use cash for the transactions.

Do not use safety deposit boxes.  They have already been compromised by DHS.  During the depression, you could not open one without a duly appointed Federal representative present.

Stop eating oil.

Grow your own food and break the supermarket cycle of shipping foodstuffs 1500 miles to the consumer.  While you’re at it, get out of the supermarket.  Find local organic farmers and buy direct from them.  Form a group (co-op)to buy direct from wholesale organic distributors.  This really helps with expenses.  You can find distributors by just reading the labels on organic produce.

Do not eat food that your grandmother would not recognize.  Stay away from processed foods (canned, boxed & bagged), even those in the organic food store isles.  All of the food sold regular supermarkets is tainted.  Oil fertilizers, oil pesticides (do everything you can to get off oil) and imitation dead foods laden with enzyme inhibitors (such as salt), “inert” ingredients & chemicals.  Mostly supermarkets are selling very slow acting poisons disguised as food.

Avoid any food containing High Fructose Corn Syrup.  Whether or not it is good or bad for you is open to debate.  It does show that the manufacturer of the “food” is more of a chemical engineer than a “food” producer.  HFCS is the blatant signal.

Don’t eat the beef, the fish or the pig.  (That is, unless you know the meat’s source, even then in moderation.)  One can not support over-fishing of our oceans and/or Concentrated Animal Feed Operations (CAFO).  CAFO’s will pump the animal full of growth hormones and anti-biotics.  You do not want these in your system.  Look at how fat (and often kinda mesmerized) the people shopping in the meat department are.  But even if you are eating nothing but the best animal protein, the animals revenge (karma) will give you obesity, diabetes, clogged arteries, heart disease and cancer.  Vegetables will clear all of those problems.  Your doctor will not tell you this, he’ll just control these symptoms with drugs.

It is said that 50% of our clean water is used in CAFO operations while the waste streams from such operations pollute the other 50%. 

We have not as yet gotten off the grid, however, that is the plan we are working toward.  We have wind, sun and 6 months @ year of running water.  Suspect we’ll be using all three as time & a half goes by.

And finally, break the AMA/big pharma monopoly, Gerson Therapy (gerson.org) will cure almost everything that can possibly ail you.

re: Kdelphi

Or perhaps Bela Lugosi: “They say I dug up bodies… so they say.”

Maybe he’s Gary Busey—he’s been caling in C-SPAN drunk or high or something…or maybe its our Fearful Leader , sprintin’ to the finish (of his own country!)

re: Rus7355

Are you really Steven Colbert? Your post reminds me of one of his rants on The Report.

By the way—I’d only support Obama if he were the last candidate on earth (I was incensed by today’s Town Hall Mtg. where Obama pulled a “Dubya”—“Yes we can!” vs. “USA!”) except John McCain…i can sti write in Nader or McKInney. Dont ASSUME anything! Obama uis NOT a “liberal”. And he’s CERTSINLY not a Socialist. Re-distribution of income?? You bet yer ass! Cklass warfare? As your hero would say, “Bring it on!!”

Yes! Bravo, Jim C! As my mom, used to say, “That’ll learn “em, dern ‘em!”. And , as I used to say, “I took Statistics in college—you can make them say anything. Blow me, Rs.”.We spend 10x what the rest of the world does PUT TOGETHER ion “military”—and, by that, I dont mean bay wipes for soldiers. (They have to ask for CARE pkgs.) For contractors, OIL “men” (“girlie men”), and “cosboys” like W, whom Pres. Fox said was “Terrified of horses” and “the most arrogant man he’d ever met”.Oil is UP, because 1)we encouraged the Chinese to “capitalize”—and, guess what? They’re better at it than we are! oops! 2)we keep invading the oil-rich countyries and pissing them off 3)The HOuse of Saud has Dubya by the balls (and the “fortunate son’s” heart {if he has one} and mind {ditto} followed! They bailed him out of his dry oil welkl debacle. Daddy bailed him out of th basebal one 4)Americans scream everytiem they’re asked to sacrifice—except poor people. There they are on TV , filling up their GIANT car, refusing to go 55MPH, on their cell phone, eating a giant burger, giving thei r countrymen the finger, tyelling about oil prices and “Drill, dril , dril!~ ” with Rush on the radio….PUL-EEEZE andnot a dime for the peole that are REALLY hurt by this—people who have to drive afor a living, who have mo other meanms to get to work, cant afford a hybrid (lets subsidize those instead of oil!! Give pooe peop;e $$ to buy them!), or are sick and cant turn on the ac. Its strange, if youre born with $$ in this country (or get it from some nefarrious means—“health ” care, war) the govt GIVES YOU MORE!! If youre poor—GUVE YOUR $$ TIO THAT RICH GUY!!

Rus7355 , thank you for one of the most inaccurate , disjointed and just plain stupid posts I have read in a while . Redistribution of income , you mean not allowing the top 1% to hoard 70% of the countries wealth by revamping the tax structure so they actually have to pay their share , if so , I’m all for it . ” Europe is weak militarily and won’t invest in its own defense.” No europe has the sense not to spend 50% of its budget on a bloated , unnecessarily large military that that sucks up resources and is larger than the rest of the worlds combined . Justified by the way , to fight a tactic ( terrorism ) . You’re right , we import bags , eye glass’s and damn near everything else , all we seem to export are weapons and jobs . You seem enamored with misconception that bush speaks spanish , no he doesn’t , just ask any spanish speaker that has ever heard that idiot attempt it . The moron can’t even speak english . As for your 5th mindless little rant , so you don’t believe global warming is a problem , you think it’s a good idea to keep spewing polution unchecked ? So you think burning coal and turning out tons of nuclear waste that lasts for tens of thousands of years is a better idea than moving to renewable energy ? Please tell me you’re kidding , it pains me to believe there are really people that ignorant . As far as putting bush ” behind us ” , no , not behind us , in jail where he so desperatly needs to be . Yeah , bush is a cowboy , a connecticut cowboy who never did an honest days work in his miserable life . I assume by the ” actor ” comment you were referring to the drooling dumbass ronald reagan , the problem was is that was all he was . Jesus what a fool , thanks for the laugh .

Jim c—They think anybody (esp. a woman) who isnt in total support of Obama is one of those PUMAs , some of which, support McCain. Iguess..I said, “I would NEVER support Mccain” and they just dont care. If youre not totally “on message”, forget it. Its true that, with the re-districting they did under Taft (The Thief), it would be very difficult—but it could be done. She may be a weak campaigner—i havent seen anything about her,.But, if she turns down volunteers and doesnt have much money—she’;l; sutrely lose. The stats on German gold and silver, are scary stuff, if yu read them a certain way. TYou ever read “It Cant happen Here” by Sinclair Lewis? (Jersey Girl—Joe Conason quotes it voluminously in “It CAN Happen Here” 2007—have you read it? If you like Chris Hedges’ “Am. Fascists”, you’ll like Conason, I think—spec. atten. to Buzz Windrip, professional common man)Jim C—I’m afraid we’re stuck with Boehnmer—I called hinm after a C-SPAN covered vote once and tood him that, if I had the money and wasnt sick, I was gonna make it “mylife’s missions to see him defeat3d and make him miserable” (A little grandstanding, dont you think?? LOL I was pissed!)Sortve Thelma and Louise…not really…lol.He was arguing whether the Patriot Act was “patriotic” (patriotism to them = nationalism)and I said that it was against the law and that , although, some peopoe might htihk it was “patriotic to take out the pres.” (I WAS PISSED! OK?) that , that TOO, was against the law, and “should not be done”. He said , “Are you threatening the prez. of hteusa…blah blah” I said, “No, I’m suggesting that even if its patriotic dont do it!?”. We got in a yelling match! Thats when I sadi that—I still think its funny. My friend was here and looking at me like i was crazy!! Maybe I am.

KDelphi , Why did they think you were a Mccain supporter ? As far as Boehner , I just call him an embarassment . The guys a stumbling drunk , he has a penchant for geting hammered then heading straight for the nearest TV camera , stareing into it with bloodshot eyes , blubbering and sluring his words incoherently . How he keeps getting reelected is beyond me , the fact the dems don’t put up a strong candidate doesn’t help . I doubt if Mitakides has much of a chance of taking out smiling corporate Mike , his district was custom designed for him just like Boehners , plus the fact shes a weak campaigner . I also love heading south of the border , but I usually go to mexico , this was the first year I haven’t gone in ten years . I enjoy just roaming the streets of Playa del carmen . Dayton isn’t such a bad place , but I guess it depends on the circumstances , but that kind of goes for anywhere .

re: Jersey girl, webbedouin, everyone

New article by William Greider applies to the topic of this post, here is the link:
http://www.alternet.org/workplace/93509/

re: Jersey Girl

“There was a door to which I found no key,
there was a veil through which I could not see.
A little talk awhile of me and thee,
There was… and then no more talk of thee and me.”
OMAR KHAYYAM

Webb:  I see the same thing you do. There will be food shortages, possibly another false flag attack (what are those tens of thousands of plastic coffin liners for?) and martial law.  Bush will of course then cancel the elections. 

And look at those german gold/silver prices. The same is happening here.  We are indeed becoming Hitler’s Germany, “brave new world” and “1984” on steroids.

The question now is, what the hell are we going to do to stop it before it’s too late?

German Mark prices of Silver and Gold from January 1919 to November 1923:

Jan. 1919 Silver 12 Gold 170
May. 1919 Silver 17 Gold 267
Sept. 1919 Silver 31 Gold 499

Jan. 1920 Silver 84 Gold 1,340
May 1920 Silver 60 Gold 966

Sept. 1921 Silver 80 Gold 2,175

Jan. 1922 Silver 249 Gold 3,976
May. 1922 Silver 375 Gold 6,012
Sept. 1922 Silver 1899 Gold 30,381

Jan. 1923 Silver 23,277 Gold 372,447
May. 1923 Silver 44,397 Gold 710,355
June 5, 1923 Silver 80,953 Gold 1,295,256
July 3, 1923 Silver 207,239 Gold 3,315,831
Aug. 7, 1923 Silver 4,273,874 Gold 68,382,000
Sept. 4, 1923 Silver 16,839,937 Gold 269,429,000
Oct. 2, 1923 Silver 414,484,000 Gold 6,631,749,000
Oct. 9, 1923 Silver 1,554,309,000 Gold 24,868,950,000
Oct. 16, 1923 Silver 5,319,567,000 Gold 84,969,072,000
Oct. 23, 1923 Silver 7,253,460,000 Gold 1,160,552,662,000
Oct. 30, 1923 Silver 8,419,200,000 Gold 1,347,070,000,000
Nov. 5, 1923 Silver 54,375,000,000 Gold 8,700,000,000,000
Nov. 13, 1923 Silver 108,750,000,000 Gold 17,400,000,000,000
Nov. 30, 1923 Silver 543,750,000,000 Gold 87,000,000,000,000

Jim C—Yep! Actually, the Delphi is from 1999—I went to the Keys, learned to snorkel/scuba, swam with manatees, dolphins, etc. FELL IN LOVE! With a dolphinm (who had 13 children)named Delphi—swam with his pod about 100x. Then, got a guy to take me out on his dive boat to Bahama Banks for 2 wks. to swin with spotted dolphinsw—friendliest in the world. Havent been able to afford a trip since 2004—got in a motorcycle wreck and the kid that hit me was drunk and RICH (an attorney’s oson—a crooked atty.)He got a $50 fine for failure to yeield the right of way—and i’m stil not back to work. IO have an MS (after dropping out of hs at 16 to marry an idiot)and I cant really use it—I need Medicaid. It sucks. But not as bad as Turner the TOOL! I tried to volunteer to work for Jane Mitakides to defeat him—I had called around primary time with questions about obama (the DNC local). I called to help with Jane last wk. I was told that, “since i supported McCain” (!!) I was “not welcome”. They invited me to a Unity Picnic tonite—just to much, man. The Dems just suck! Boehner is a BONER (thyats what we call him here), but he’d be hard to get rid of—esp. when the Dems “dont need any help”. As Samuel L. Jackson said, “Yes they deserve to die, and i hope they burn in hell!”. Also, “I’m tired of these mother-fing Republican in this mother-fing aitport bathroom!”  said,

KDelphi , It is a small world , the Delphi did make me wonder . Do you have the good fortune to be represented by Mike the corporate tool Turner or that drunken sot John Boehner ? Boehners my ” gag ” misrepresentive . Did you notice all of the excitement the other day when Mccain was at , of all places , Youngs dairy in Yellow Springs ? If you missed it don’t feel bad , a lot of people did .

I remember an argument made in favor of deregulating the Savings and Loan companies.  It was that, “some real estate investors know how to leverage their investments, can spur economic growth, and should not be stifled by government regulation.  Owning one home should be considered a commodity, a reasonable need to facilitate American culture.  The issue is that food, basic one-home shelter, utilities, social security and the like should be removed from speculation schemes.  Those are large investments that effect everyday people, let business work with the others that stimulate economic activity.  That preserves family and individual values, isn’t that better than dividing a nation of haves and have-nots and creative ideas that should not land us in depression, if we’re doing it right, yipes.  Europe is so much more smart about making life better for all its people. Let’s face we are more tribal.

Banks too big?  Put your money in a credit union.  Cut up all those big bank credit cards.  Some of these banks make 79% of their profit by charging you usury rates.  Try Sharia banking for a mortgage.

If none of these possibilities go far enough, there’s always the old coffee can buried in the backyard.  There is no law of nature that says, “Thou shalt participate in the fractional reserve banking system.”

There are many nice places to live in this world, and doing so is well worth it.  But remember that as an expat you are somewhat immune to your surroundings.  Every place has its problems; you just don’t notice them so much when they are not, directly, yours.

But maybe we should work on making our home more like the homes that we covet.  We have all the power in the world.  We don’t exercise that power enough or in sufficient numbers.  We act weak, so we are treated as weaklings.

Nothing is too big to fail.  Not Rome, not the British Empire, not the USSR, not the USA, and most certainly not a couple of banks playing with fake money.

This thread is interesting—I wonder how long they’ll keep it open?- Just shows the debate you can have when people are not totally committed to a single persson solving this country’s prob.! Yes, the UK is a mess with the cameras and stuff—that’s why I wiol not get a Natl ID Card0—its just the staart.I know people on the “:Questionable Citizens List” (I may be after protesting the war with the AFSC (Quakers—I went