Re Paul,

Ok, so we arrest every office holder who took part in the rape and pillage of Iraq.  Good, i’d like to see Clinton/Gore behind bars just as much as i’d like to see G.W. Bush behind bars.  I’d be interested to see how much Clinton/Gore owe for the lives of 500,000 Iraqi children who died under their leadership.

But i fail to see how it is wrong to use US taxpayer money to rebuild a country that US taxpayer money destroyed.  Who would it be cruel and unusual to?  I never said that we should administer the rebuilding; i think that we should have nothing to with that beyond footing the bill. 

What would your reaction be to someone coming here and destroying our infrastructure, killing our families, and littering our countryside with depleted uranium…and then telling us that we need to get off our ass and rebuild our country out of our own pockets?

Your tough love for the Iraqi people reeks of American exceptionalism and imperial hubris.

If i ran the world, every man woman and child in the US would be put in the dock for crimes against humanity over this…me included.  Hell, i’ll go first.

Tony,
You drank the kool-aid my friend. The politicians we have today are all the same regardless of party affiliation.  Face it, the president has little power beyond his veto so attempting to credit Bill with American prosperity ignores all of the hard working folks who really made it happen. Anyway, it was a republican controlled congress – under your logic, you would have to give them the majority of the credit as well as the “leaders” before him. And who gets t to take credit for the tech bust? Don’t get to hear that in the talking points… take the good but not the bad eh. And the peace part…? you ignore the world around you?

These two parties have had a strangle hold on America for a long time. When things go wrong with one, public tends to turn to the other. A reciprocal processes of back and forth that continues to yield the same results from both. Neither has proven themselves to be any better than the other. They are the same – just a different marketing strategy that you have bought hook, line and sinker.

If you believe the Democratic party is going to come in and Fix anything, you will be mighty disappointed in four years- Unless of course, you buy into more of their propaganda of blaming the other for their own failures.

By PatrickHenry, July 24 at 2:26 pm #

I hope Obama goes to Mecca next, it would drive Israel crazy and prove to me Barrack can pander with the best of them.

~~~~~

Good one PH…:)

I hope he does too!

By mrmb, July 24 at 8:08 am #

mrmb,

I just checked out your thirdworldtraveler site and I like it. It has good, balanced informative articles. Thanks for the link.

By JBlack, July 24 at 4:47 am #

From Audacity of Hope: ‘I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.’—Barack Obama
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JBlack,

So, what’s the point here? I hope it’s true. We should all stand with anybody who is being persecuted.

By rowman, July 24 at 9:25 am #

Democrat or Republican – It does not matter. They are the same. Any difference they try to convince you of is marketing hype.
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rowman,

This is absurd. George W. Bush is by universal consent the worst president in history. There is no way Al Gore would have been anything like this bad.  Under Bill Clinton we enjoyed eight years of relative peace and prosperity. There is a big difference between Democrats and Republicans, and the difference has never, ever been bigger than this year. So if you can’t see the difference, you are living in some other world than I live in, some utopian ideal world in comparison with which all real alternatives look the same.

I hope Obama goes to Mecca next, it would drive Israel crazy and prove to me Barrack can pander with the best of them.

RE: Tony Wicher, July 23 at 5:27 pm #

I respectfully disagree on a couple points but do agree with you on others.

While corruption can be considered a reflection of society, what we have in D.C. is a separate culture where they are way above the average citizen. They have become accustom to a “rock star” lifestyle and no longer represent us but rather those willing to fund their excessiveness. Consider how rich some have become since entering office or how different their daily lives are from ours.

Nancy Pelosi is attempting to use Bush as an excuse for their indolence. There are many things they could be doing right now to better this country but they are simply ineffective and incapable. They are more interested in playing politics when they should be earning a paycheck working for you and I but they have other objectives that conflict with the average persons concerns today. A republican president and a democratic congress is nothing more than a natural form of checks and balances and it should have no bearing on anyone’s ability to actually do some work. It’s a very lame excuse for her to promote and she should be fired.

Barak is getting a taste of the lifestyle and will have no interest in challenging the status quo. Even if he wanted to, he will not have the means, power or influence to do so as he will never be able to overcome the dem leaders who want to keep things the way they are. Changing Washington would require that he challenge the very people working to get him elected. That will NEVER happen.

The only way this can be overcome is to advance a new party that has the necessary controls in place to prevent these things from occurring. Such a party would need to immediately modify numerous laws to further those controls and eliminate the corruption. All we have today is the fox guarding the hen house when what we need is a separate oversight body capable of enforcing the controls, progress, commitments etc. The congress we have today cannot be trusted to act on our best interests.

Democrat or Republican – It does not matter. They are the same. Any difference they try to convince you of is marketing hype.

By cyrena, July 23 at 7:23 pm #

Very precise, cyrena!

Re politicaljunky, July 23 at 6:06 pm #

Sure, Iranian people had a right to get rid of the Shah and install the Mullahs, and now they have a right to get rid of the Mullahs and maybe put a social democrat like Mossagdeh back in. The best way we can help the Iranian people is to have peaceful, constructive engagement with them. Young Iranian people want to Westernize. They won’t put up with a theocracy for long.

There are old Shah supporters (and old Savak operatives) currently agitating in the United States for a war against Iran on the grounds of Iran’s human rights violations. These people are either the most vile traitors imaginable or the most naive dupes imaginable.

Re rowman, July 23 at 3:10 pm #

I agree that the 2006 Congress has been a do-nothing Congress, but let’s see how the 2008 Congress does with a filibuster-proof majority and Obama in the White House. I just saw Nancy Pelosi on CSPAN at the Netroots conference. We have all been disappointed by Pelosi’s performance so far as Speaker, but I was fairly impressed by her insistence that with the Senate virtually deadlocked and Bush wielding the veto, Democrats were not politically strong enough
to do much. I’m sure if they were less cowardly they could have done more, but that at least suggests that if they felt politically safer they would do more. So let’s see what happens after November. It’s too early to tell.

Re sue cook

•  “…The clincher is he also says that he “retains the right to bring them back in force if deteriating conditions resume”.”

~~

ACTUALLY,  according to what I’ve just read and re-read and now re-post directly from the article, THIS is was he said:

•  “..And if there was an outbreak of ethnic violence that “presented the possibility of genocide,” he said in Jordan, he would “retain the right to intervene,” hopefully with the cooperation of allies.

So, ethnic violence that presented the possibility of GENOCIDE (which just happens to be something the world community is OBLIGATED to address, based on International Laws and treaties) and that if this intervention became necessary, it would hopefully be with the cooperation of allies. (which is also the expectation of the Genocide Convention, which is intended, in part to PREVENT those horrific crimes.) For those who might be more aware, such crimes are far more likely to develop in a nation that has become destabilized, be it intentionally (like in the case of Iraq) or otherwise.

I’m convinced that so much evil in the world could be at least reduced to a manageable level, if people would just pay attention to what others are actually saying, and to ask questions if they don’t understand, instead of re-creating/changing the words, (and therefore the intentions of whomever has spoken the words) to reflect their own definition of what was actually said. The prevention of genocide (and related crimes against humanity) is the one time when international laws allow for intervention in the political sovereignty of another nation state.

Now of course had the sovereignty of Iraq NOT been illegally invaded to begin with, this concern of ethnic violence that could result in genocide wouldn’t *be* a concern.

Much thanks to Bill Boyarski for reminding us of how this all began. That sometimes seems to escape many of us, for a variety of reasons to lengthy to go into.

Someone here recently reminded us of another extremely important point that Sen. Obama has made in reference to ending the disaster that Dick Bush created in Iraq and the rest of the world. I’ll paraphrase, “We must be as careful getting out of Iraq as we were careless going in.”
I always marvel at the diplomacy and civility that he uses in couching these crimes in terms of ‘we’. Because, “WE” (the people) damn sure didn’t decide to mosey on over and tear up the place. Nope, it happened anyway, despite the fact that “we” were kicking and screaming all the way, (or at least a lot of us were) and have been ever since.

But the reality is that ‘we’ ARE there, and we can’t get out as stupidly as we got in. I moved into my current residence 4 ½ years ago, and it took me all of two hours to accomplish it. It’s now taken me nearly 3 months to get even half of the accumulated stuff moved out, and there’s still that much more left to sort, pack, and relocate. And, that’s just the physical stuff. That doesn’t even begin to address all of the ‘bureaucratic’ details of shutting down services, and ending contracts, etc, etc.

Sometimes I think a day tour of any emergency room would give a more visual example of this. How long does it take somebody to nearly slice off a finger or a toe, and how long does it take to put in back on? What about that flower bud that my sister managed to shove up her nose decades ago, for reasons unknown?  (claims she was just ‘smelling’ it) Didn’t take long, but it took the doc seemingly forever to dig it out. How long does it take a mad person to smash up an exquisite vase with a bat? And how long does it take to glue it all back together again, if it even can be?

Anyway, thanks to Bill for the reminder of who created the disaster that the real ‘we’ must now attempt to repair.

And I mean peace with Iran. All we have to do is to apologize for getting rid of the Iranian democracy under Mossadegh in 1953 and give a decent non-aggression pact and economic incentives to Iran.  The Iranian people need our help and we need Iran’s. Every time we deny Iran’s rights the Mullah’s in Tehran use the Iranian’s 2500 year long pride of patriotism to consolidate their power. On the other hand Iran has the most democratic regime in the Middle East and the government has to answer to the people. We should stop supporting the dictatorships in Saudi Arabia (15 out of 19 9/11 terrorists were Saudi), Pakistan, Egypt and Bush’s other friends. As far as Israel is concerned Iran and the Jews have a special relationship with each other started 2500 years ago under Cyrus the great who is mentioned in the Hebrew bible as a Messiah of God (the only person so mentioned) so making peace with Iran would only be a gain to the majority of Israelis, Iranians, Iraqis, Afghans and of course us.

Can someone tell me why Obama is qualified to be president, like what has he done , or not done, I dont want to hear what McCain has or has not done. Just what has Obama done to deserve POTUS, not what he promises, what he has done
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My judgment of his qualifications to be President is not ideologically based. I think I’m a pretty good judge of talent and what what qualifies him in my opinion is his sheer talent and ability as a politician, a leader and an organizer. I make this judgment based on everything I have seen him say and do since the start of the campaign. He has been outstanding. Sure, I wish we could have Dennis Kucinich, and when he announced his candidacy I started sending him money. But it became clear early on that he was not going to make it. Kucinch is an idealist. Obama is a realist. He surprised everybody by kicking the crap out of the Clintons. Believe me, that wasn’t easy. Not only does Obama have a political touch even better than Bill Clinton’s, but he’s one hell of a fighter. He fights clean, too, but he packs a hell of a punch.

Re rowman, July 23 at 3:10 pm #

I hate to tell you this, but corruption comes from the people. The corruption of political leaders is only a manifestation of the average level of corruption of society as a whole. If we, the people, form a third party it will be just as corrupt as the first two. So we might as well keep the two we have and work on getting more honest people elected, if that should be possible.

Nothing. That is why his platform is based on an idea that is widely open for interpretation.

He will be beholden to the Democratic Party “leaders”. They are not looking to change a thing that interrupts their power. They are a do nothing congress and are quite happy to keep it that way. He can do nothing without congress so this whole thing is a bunch of b.s.

What we need is a new party that will allow us to divorce ourselves from the entrenched corruption.

The most compelling and effective statement Sen Obama made during his press conference in Jordan was that as a President you must consider Iraq within the context of International and Domestic situations. Petraeus will do what ever He is told to do, it is up to US and the Person we choose to be president to determine where the most important issues lie.
when Mac proclaims he will listen to the Generals, above & beyond the demands of the citizens, he is admitting to premeditated Treason. The condition on our soil require a President who realizes our National Security does Not begin & End in th eMiddle East, But HERE!
I question which ‘surge’ Mac is referring to that has Worked. could that be the ‘Surge’ by the Corps and their minions in the Aedmin & Congress to finally bring our nation to it’s knees and highjack the remaining ‘treasure’ and futures of our citizens. if so- he’s correct, that ‘surge’ has been a Success!But as far as the action of adding more military personnel, regardless of treasure, future and blood, it has failed. The only reason there has been a decrease in violence is because those who were waging a civil war against each other have stopped!If we were not there the newly formed AQ would not have a battlefield to fight US on and the iraqi’s would once again be free of their influence and threat.
It’s time we demand Sen McCain review the condtions on the Ground Here before any other foreign nations, or Oil industries desires.

Webbedouin - “You (Tony) may be right, but you can’t win with a corporate candidate.” 

Unfortunately, nobody but a corporate candidate can win an American election.  Look what happened to Dennis.  Knowing full well the despotic idiocy of George - even before ‘04 - we re-elected him anyway. 

What, about 95 percent of Congress is made up of corporate candidates and about that percentage keeps getting re-elected year after nauseating year.

It seems pretty obvious that step one on the road to sanity would be to get the corporate world out of our political world.  The media would be a good start - afterall they use the air-waves only at our pleasure and their use of them no longer pleases us.

The war will never “end” completely.
We are stuck there for a long time (maybe 100 years) thanks to GW Bush.

John McCain and Gen.Petreaus is correct in not calling for any immediate withdrawls.

Obama will not admit that the “surge” worked.

He stands by his word on “ending the war, and bringing home the troops in 16 mos.”  But, he now also says that some residual troops will remain for continued Iraqi troop training as long as needed.

The clincher is he also says that he “retains the right to bring them back in force if deteriating conditions resume”.

The point made earlier about withdrawl of troops at all by McCain and Petreaus?

Obama should just admit that the surge did work, and admit that maybe he spoke to soon (before visiting Iraq) on withdrawl before assuring ground conditions permitted.

The elite, the democratic party and the msm made sure obama was the nominee. THere is no doubt about it.

We are seeing what their manipulation has wrought.  A man who presents himself to us as another corporate shill who has voted to take away our civil liberties not just once but twice. First with patriot act II and the despicable FISA bill. He’s made it quite clear he is for more war and more spying on the american citizen. To say nothing of his “youth league” which reminds me of the nazi youth league or the east german stasi.  All the big power and money was and is behind him.  To not realize this is to be deluding yourselves.

So sad to know this is who we should have had as our nominee and don’t.. http://www.kucinich.us/

Of course, Dennis is a man of the people and the powers that be just can’t have that, now can they?

Jackpine, to try and put Afghanistan and/or Iraq back together again through American taxpayers’ monies is as cruel and evil as funding both those quagmires with those same taxpayers’ monies. Far better it would be to arrest, try and convict the warmongers-in-office (at both the Executive and Legislative levels) for starting these futile wars in the first place, then confiscate their personal fortunes and give them to Iraq and Afghanistan, for those countries to use as they see fit.

Paul_GA,

I would much prefer that we could just leave; almost as much as i would have preferred never going in the first place.  But as shitty as America is in its imperial ambitions, to destroy a country and just leave it destroyed because the people back home no longer want to deal with the mess that we created is pure Amerika…and it is wrong.

The same goes for making the Iraqis pay for the reconstruction of their country.  They didn’t ask us to blow it to hell and litter it with DU munitions.  Yet here we are, suggesting that fixing/cleaning up is somehow their responsibility.

After the millions of Iraqis that we’ve killed over the last 20 years, we owe them a lot more than “see ya”.  We don’t owe them a continued troop presence, but we owe them establishing a situation where they can begin to rebuild their lives.

Sorry, but “inside the box” thinking is the idea that we can leave our messes for others to straighten out.  It shows the adolescent nature of the American public of the left just as much as starting the war showed the adolescent nature of the American right.  It was me who suggested peacekeepers whereas you seem to be suggesting trying to forget that the whole thing ever happened.

It may not be a “realistic” option for those who think inside the box, Jackpine, but I personally believe that beating feet from both Iraq and Afghanistan is the best course of action available to this country. The alternative is to continue to wear the military and the economy out with two quagmires while making plans for new ones, and I’ve always believed Sun Tzu was right when he wrote, “No country has ever benefited from a protracted war.”

It’s sad and stupid, but it is true.  And picking up sticks and coming home - en masse - is not a realistic option.

However, there is some hope.  First, with a new administration we may be able to implement the best option that has been available to us for some time: replacing US combat forces with international peacekeepers.  And second, if the Iraqis think that we might actually leave, then they have some incentive to create the conditions under which we can.

Afghanistan is a whole different issue, and unfortunately, it looks as though Obama is planning on stepping it badly there.

“We are stuck for a long time with difficult wars in hostile lands.”
Lets hope the next president and congress don’t share this bleak conclusion. The U.S. cannot afford the next fours years to be filled with finger pointing back at the Bush adm. We are entering a pivitol point in our nations history. Our economy is sluggish at best, our educational system needs overhauled, our infrastructure is slowly crumbling, and we need to move rapidly away from our petroleum based economy as quickly as possible. Without sustained growth and targeted government incentives (you know, the kind other countries practice all the time) none of these goals will be possible. Needless to say, none of these projects will be possible while we spend hundreds of billions of dollars on foreign wars and unwise occupations. (if the oil companies want security for their new business ventures in Iraq they are more than capable of paying for it themselves, I hear Blackwater is hiring)
I heard somewhere that the business of America is business. The business of America has unfortunatley become WAR. And as we found out in the last 65 years (yes, this started way before Shrub) when all you export is WAR, you just might have to import everything else.

Tony you can elect Obama and be right.  Of course from my perspective, Obama is pretty right winged.  But the fact of the matter is that by 2010 you are going to be just as disappointed as you are today about electing a Democraptic Congress in 2006.  You may be right, but you can’t win with a corporate candidate.

There is no moral reason to have gone there, to be there, or to stay there. As long as we are there, we are compromised. Our law, our Constitution, our soul are compromised. Our very elections are in doubt. We need representation. Who represents us, the American citizenry, to the American government? Our purported officials? When they do, such as Dennis Kucinich, they are summarily disenfranchised by The Powers That Be. This upcoming election is so framed as to be no choice at all, hence this false claim of no exit with Iraq. It is nonsense to say there is no way out; simply get out. Start the flights out this minute. It is as simple as that. Anything less supports piracy and barbarity and worse (and so on), none of which is of course covered in mainstream media. Manufactured consent does not ebb quickly or at all when maintained by an increasingly brutalized and militarized culture that younger generations grow into.

webby,

Oh, wait, now I think I get your meaning. I said it looks like the whole country is deciding for Obama, and you said I don’t speak for you. Well, you are not “the country”. You and I are just two people. but the country, the United States of America, is about to elect Obama and the MSM is just reflecting that fact. There are still 40% Republicans and some naysayers on the Left such as yourself, but Obama has built a coalition which is going to get him elected by a solid majority. I’m part of that 60% and you are not. Time will tell who is right.

Re webbedouin, July 22 at 9:03 pm #

Tony, I won’t support any Corporate Repuglican or Corporate Democrap, so please don’t presume to speak for me, because i will not be so decieved.
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webbedouin,

How did I presume to speak for you? I was speaking for me.

Tony, I won’t support any Corporate Repuglican or Corporate Democrap, so please don’t presume to speak for me, because i will not be so decieved.

There is a black woman i really like and a consumer crusader that meets my specifications.  My advice, the acid test, vote for a candidate that supports single payer health care.  Only the corporate fascists will insist on keeping the insurance companies involved.  And on that issue, there is no difference between McCain & Obama.

Oh & BTW, even though McCain has the Repugnican nomination wrapped up - i’ll bet’cha that once the convention is over, the nominee will be somebody else…

I would say it is more like the whole country has decided on Obama, and the media is just following along.

It’s pretty clear that “the media” has decided upon Obama.  And the media sez,

Yes we can!
Yes we can!
Obama!
Obama!
He’s my man!

Even John McCain has figured it out and is lamenting his lost status of media darling.

The Military Industrial Entertainment complex has decided that Obama won’t alter the status quo too quickly and will both 1> keep the wars going and 2> is silver tongued enough to slicker at least 30% of the people into supporting it. 

Unlike McCain who can’t remember (or just doesn’t know) what the hell he is talking about.

Good piece Tony Wicher! I fully concur!

This is a realistic article. It will not be easy to completely withdraw from Iraq or Afghanistan, simply because the “you break it you bought it” maxim of Colin Powell still holds and cannot be wished away. We used Afghanistan as a battleground against the Soviet Union, arming the Muhajedeen including bin Laden against the Soviets. (Supposedly bin Laden turned against us afterwards, but I wonder whether this erstwhile CIA asset has maintained his connections all along.) In any case, having used Afghanistan and its people for our geopolitical purposes, we left when the Soviet Union collapsed, leaving a fragmented Afghanistan ruled by a motley collection of warlords, and of course bin Laden and company. The Taliban was an effort by the Afghan people to restore some kind of functioning central authority, however primitive. It seems to me that somehow we will have to help the Afghan people restore a functioning society, or there will be continued blowback. This may even include talking to the Taliban if possible. I think this can only be done by an international effort that is primarily non-military in nature. Obama will have to transition U.S. foreign policy from an imperialist one to an internationalist one, or, since nobody’s perfect, at least make it less imperialist and more internationalist.