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Iran Shows Its Cards

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Posted on Jul 14, 2008
AP photo / Hasan Sarbakhshian

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, far left, sits with officers during a military parade last year.

By Scott Ritter

There can no longer be any doubt about the consequences of any U.S. and/or Israeli military action against Iran. Armchair warriors, pundits and blustering politicians alike have been advocating a pre-emptive military strike against Iran for the purpose of neutralizing its nuclear-related infrastructure, as well as retarding Iran’s ability to train and equip “terrorist” forces on Iranian soil before dispatching them to Iraq or parts unknown. Some, including me, have warned of the folly of such action, and now Iran itself has demonstrated why an attack would be insane.

I’ve always pointed out that no plan survives initial contact with the enemy, and furthermore one can never forget that, in war, the enemy gets to vote. On the issue of an American and/or Israeli attack on Iran, the Iranian military has demonstrated exactly how it would cast its vote. Iran recently fired off medium- and long-range missiles and rockets, in a clear demonstration of capability and intent. Shipping through the Strait of Hormuz, regional oil production capability and U.S. military concentrations, along with Israeli cities, would all be subjected to an Iranian military response if Iran was attacked. 

The Bush administration has shrugged off the Iranian military display as yet another example of how irresponsible the government in Tehran is. But the Pentagon for one has had to sit up and pay attention. For some time now, the admirals commanding the U.S. 5th Fleet in the Persian Gulf have maintained that they have the ability to keep the Strait of Hormuz open. But the fact is, the only way the United States could guarantee that the strait remained open would be to launch a massive pre-emptive military strike that swept the Iranian coast clear of the deadly Chinese-made surface-to-surface missiles that Iran would use to sink cargo ships in the strategic lane. This strike would involve hundreds of tactical aircraft backed up by limited ground action by Marines and U.S. Special Operations forces which would involve “boots on the ground” for several days, if not weeks. Such a strike is not envisioned in any “limited” military action being planned by the United States. But now that it is clear what the Iranian response would entail, there can no longer be any talk of a “limited” military attack on Iran.

The moment the United States makes a move to secure the Strait of Hormuz, Iran will unleash a massive bombardment of the military and industrial facilities of the United States and its allies, including the oil fields in Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar. American military bases in Iraq and Kuwait, large—fixed and well known— would be smothered by rockets and missiles carrying deadly cluster bombs. The damage done would run into the hundreds of millions, if not into billions, of dollars, and hundreds, if not thousands, of U.S. military personnel would be killed and wounded.

To prevent or retard any Iranian missile attack, the United States would have to commit hundreds of combat sorties, combined with Special Operations forces, to a counter-missile fight which would need to span the considerable depth of the Persian landmass from which missiles might reach potential targets. While there has been some improvement in the U.S. military’s counter-missile capability, one must never forget that in 1991 not a single Iraqi Scud missile was successfully interdicted by any aspect of American military action (airstrike, ground action or antiballistic missile), and in 2003 the U.S. military had mixed results against the far less capable Al-Samoud missiles. Israel was unable to prevent Hezbollah from firing large salvos of rockets into northern Israel during the summer 2006 conflict. There is no reason for optimism that the U.S. and Israel have suddenly found the solution to the Iranian missile threat.

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There is virtually no chance the U.S. Navy would be able to prevent Iran from interfering with shipping through the strait. There is every chance the Navy would take significant casualties, in both ships lost and personnel killed or wounded, as it struggled to secure the strait. There would be a need for a significant commitment of ground forces to guarantee safe passage for all shipping, civilian and military alike. The longer ground forces could operate on Iranian soil, the better the chances Iranian missiles would not be able to effectively interdict shipping. Conversely, the longer ground forces operated on Iranian soil, the greater likelihood there would be of decisive ground engagement. With U.S. air power expected to be fully committed to the missile interdiction mission, any large-scale ground engagement would create a situation in which air power would have to be redirected into tactical support, and away from missile interdiction, creating a window of vulnerability which the Iranians would very likely exploit. 

Iran has promised to strike targets in Israel as well, especially if Israel is a participant in any military action. Such Israeli involvement is highly unlikely, since to do so in any meaningful fashion Israel would need to fly in Iraqi air space, a violation of sovereignty the Iraqi government will never tolerate. The anti-American backlash that would be generated in Iraq would be immediate and severe. In short, virtually every operation involving the training of Iraqi forces would be terminated as the U.S. military trainers would need to be withdrawn to the safety of the fortified U.S. bases to protect them from attack. U.S. civilian contractors would likewise need to be either withdrawn completely from Iraq or restricted to the fortified bases. All gains alleged to have been made in the “surge” would be wiped away instantly. Worse, the Iraqi countryside would become a seething mass of anti-American activity, which would require a huge effort to reverse, if it ever could be. Iraq as we now know it would be lost, and what would emerge in its stead would not only be unsympathetic to the United States but actually a breeding ground for anti-American action that could very well expand beyond the boundaries of Iraq and the Middle East.

The chances of preventing an Iranian-Israeli clash in the event of a U.S. strike against Iran are slim to none. Even if Iran initially showed restraint, Hezbollah would undoubtedly join the fray, prompting an Israeli counterstrike in Lebanon and Iran which would in turn bring long-range Iranian missiles raining down on Israeli cities.


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Robert's avatar

By Robert, July 26, 2008 at 6:09 pm Link to this comment

YESTERDAY I WAS A SELF HATING JEW ~~ TODAY I HAVE BEEN VINDICATED

July 26, 2008 at 4:25 pm (Israel, Media,
Palestine, Soldier Brutality)

“Yesterday I posted THIS implying that myself and other Jews who expose the crimes committed by Israel were destroying Israel’s self image.
Today, the Jerusalem Post makes it very clear that the image Israel wishes to convey is being destroyed by themselves, not by me.

ANOTHER CASE in which the media found itself on the firing line this week is the footage that featured prominently on every local and many foreign news broadcasts of an IDF soldier deliberately shooting a rubber-tipped bullet into the foot of a bound-and-blindfolded Palestinian, arrested for taking part in a violent protest against the West Bank security barrier.

The incident was filmed by one of the many Palestinians supplied with video cameras by the Palestinian-rights organization, B’tselem, especially to capture on tape incidents just like this.

Needless to say, this illegal, immoral and stupid act caused Israel image-damage way out of proportion to the severity of the offense.

Obviously, if the incident hadn’t been caught on tape, it would barely have rated a mention in most foreign media reports, and it’s difficult to imagine that similar such occurrences elsewhere in the world would ever get such coverage.”
~~~~~~

Click on URL to read the rest of this great article:


http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/07/26/yesterday-i-was-a-self-hating-jew-today-i-have-been-vindicated/

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By Robert, July 26, 2008 at 5:49 pm Link to this comment

Palestinian family denied even half a house

By Jonathan Cook*

27 July 2008

“Jonathan Cook highlights the case of the Palestinian Khurd family to show how shadowy Jewish settler groups, in collusion with the Israeli government, are changing the geography of Jerusalem by forcing out Palestinians and replacing them with Israeli settlers.

It must be the smallest Israeli settlement in the occupied Palestinian territories: just half a house. But Palestinian officials and Israeli human rights groups are concerned that it represents the first stage of a plan to eradicate the historical neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah in East Jerusalem, cutting off one of the main routes by which Palestinians reach the Old City and its holy sites.

Human rights organizations accuse Israel of imposing a policy of silent forceful mgration against Palestinians in the West Bank

The home of Mohammed and Fawziya Khurd has been split in two since 1999 when the Israeli courts evicted their grown-up son Raed from a wing of the property. The elderly couple have been trying to regain possession, but were stymied last week when an Israeli high court backed the petition of a group of settlers and ordered the immediate eviction of the Khurds. The decision paves the way for the takeover of 26 multistory houses in the neighbourhood, threatening to make 500 Palestinians homeless.

The verdict has been denounced by Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, and in the past few days the Khurds have been visited by foreign diplomats, including from the United States.

In a letter to consulates in Jerusalem, including those of the United States, Britain, France and Germany, Rafiq Husseini, Mr Abbas’s aide, warned that the takeover of the Khurds’ home was part of a wider drive to change the geography of Jerusalem by forcing out Palestinians and replacing them with Israeli settlers. Such a development would deal a death blow to already-strained peace negotiations, he wrote.

Today there are 250,000 Israeli Jews living illegally in East Jerusalem, and the Israeli government has announced that thousands more apartments are to be built – despite promises to the US government to freeze settlement growth.

Israeli human rights groups and Palestinian solidarity activists, meanwhile, have been staging a 24-hour vigil at the Khurds’ home in the hope of preventing the order’s enforcement.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Click on URL to read the rest of this sad & real story. There are NO equal rights if one is a Palestinian and NOT Jewish in Israel.


http://www.redress.cc/palestine/jcook20080727

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By Robert, July 26, 2008 at 10:50 am Link to this comment

By Cyrena, July 25 at 10:26 PM

Thanks Cyrena… I try to do my best to convey the truth & to bring it out so all of us can see it out there. Our U.S. AIPAC controlled news media have a huge grip & monopoly on their “news topics/propaganda”. They will NOT accept or tolerate any competition to their propaganda empire. Almost any competition that rises to the occasion to compete with the wealthy owners of the MSM…that competition is bought or taken over. Look at what happened to Ted Turner/CNN and others. Rupert Murdoch’s empire is out there for total control of the business. Their grip & control on the news media is a huge weapon and that is why most of our elected officials are intimidated and they know that criticism of Israel’s policies can be used by MSM to ruin their careers & legacy.

Cyrena…you hang in there with your consistent & academic posts. I know that you are not scared to get your feet wet NOR to your waist line.

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By cyrena, July 25, 2008 at 11:16 pm Link to this comment

Robert..good to hear from you. I was just mentioning you the other day, and for this very reason. All of the really good stuff that you find, that we wouldn’t otherwise know exists.

Now that’s also a testimony to the failure of even some of the alternative media, because I haven’t bothered with the MSM for years…literally. Still, I rarely come across the kinds of things you share, even on the alternative media.

So..there we have it.

Hopefully TD will post what you’ve provided here for us as a report.

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By Robert, July 25, 2008 at 9:05 pm Link to this comment

Ernest, I wouldn’t worry too much about “Sepharad” responding to your challenge. He/she called me a Nazi & called you a “self-hating Jew”(see part of Sephard’s posted comment below) just the same ole common zionist tactics.

He/she doesn’t believe that the internet has any truth/accuracy when compared to the mainstream news media.

You & I know that we will NOT see the story of “The Palestinian Bar Mitzvah”  on our mainstream AIPAC controlled news medias NOR will we see it in 99% of the U.S. newspapers. That would be career suicide for any honest & professional journalist.

On the other hand, he/she may just respond & take you up on your challenge. Just sit back & watch.


“Lefty,

Don’t let the reincarnated Nazis (Robert is probably the worst but some of the others are also pretty frightening)get you down. The guy who thinks it’s OK to be a Nazi because his mother is a Russian Jew is probably just another one of the self-hating Jews David Mamet writes about. The problem with so many of these guys, whatever their background, is that they do most of their research on the Net and as you know it’s possible to find any kind of narrowly focused BS googling around. The regular media coverage is somewhat better but since the ‘70s late there has been a lot of anti-Israel bias out there too. (Honest Reporting monitors and attempts to work with such outlets: they’ve gotten many major retractions from everyone from Reuters to BBC, where facts have been scrambled and pictures faked.)”

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By cann4ing, July 25, 2008 at 2:51 pm Link to this comment

Interesting, Robert, how Sepharad chose to ignore my challenge that he explain how calling for an end to a 40 year brutal occupation and the killing of innocent children (both Israeli and Palestinian), quoting studies, including those offered by journalists from Haaretz and the Israeli human rights organization, B’Tselem, which studies document the brutality and arbitrary practices of the IDF, or making an academic comparison between the plight of Palestinians trapped inside the Gaza Strip and the plight of Jews inside the Warsaw Ghetto during the early period of WW II, makes me either a Nazi or a self-hating Jew?  Instead he comes back to post a belated response to another comment regarding ancient history.

I would challenge him to read the more recent and fabulous story of “The Palestinian Bar Mitzvah” that you linked to, but I doubt he is interested in reading anything about the here and now if it doesn’t fit his myopic, Zionist world view.

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By Robert, July 25, 2008 at 12:33 pm Link to this comment

By cann4ing, July 24 at 7:57 pm #

Wow, Robert.  That is a remarkable story.  It should be in every U.S. newspaper.  I’d suggest that you contact TD directly and ask that they post it in their report section.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ernest…I do agree that this real story should be in every U.S. newspaper. I am going to contact TD and request from them to post it in their report section as you suggested. I’ll keep you posted on outcome.

I have forward it to every person that I know & many other scholar’s e-mail. I am going to e-mail it to Amy Goodman.

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By Robert, July 25, 2008 at 12:20 pm Link to this comment

Caterpillar fashion

07.24.2008 | Haaretz
By Gideon Levy

“Israel might be able to go on claiming that it will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East, but it cannot do the same regarding another weapon of mass destruction: the bulldozer. The claim that terror has adopted an original new weapon, a “new fashion” as the public security minister put it, once again shows how convenient it is for us to present a one-sided and distorted picture.

The bulldozer as a destructive and even lethal weapon was not invented by the Palestinians. They are merely imitating an Israeli “fashion” that is as old as the state, or at least as old as the occupation. Let us forget for a moment the 416 villages Israel wiped off the face of the earth in 1948 - that was before there were D9 bulldozers - and focus on a more modern fashion. In Israel’s hands the bulldozer has become one of the most terrifying weapons in the territories. The only difference between the Palestinians’ murderous bulldozer and the Israeli bulldozer is in color and size. As usual, ours is bigger, much bigger. There is no similarity between the small backhoe the Palestinian terrorist was driving and the fearsome D9 driven by Israel Defense Forces soldiers.

From the dawn of the occupation, Caterpillar has been a major arms supplier to Israel, no less than those who provide planes, cannons and tanks. Not for nothing are peace activists trying to call for a boycott of the manufacturer. Israel has sown almost unimaginable destruction using heavy equipment. Go to Rafah, stopping in Khan Yunis on the way, and see the results of the destruction scattered there to this day. Whole neighborhoods razed, the contents of houses - possessions and memories - crushed under the treads. Have you ever seen a street after being “stripped” by a bulldozer? Cars are crushed like tin cans and homes become piles of rubble, along with their contents. Any street in Rafah looks much worse than King David Street in Jerusalem this week.

In 2004, for example, 10,704 Palestinians were made homeless after the IDF destroyed 1,404 homes, mostly in Gaza, due to “operational needs.” In the Jenin refugee camp, Israel destroyed 560 homes; the legendary bulldozer driver “Kurdi” told how he would swig whiskey as he “turned Jenin into a soccer field.” In Operation Rainbow, another bulldozer operation, Israel destroyed 120 homes in one day in the Brazil camp in Rafah. Only someone who was in Rafah and Khan Yunis at the time can understand what our excellent bulldozers did.

Do not say that our bulldozers only destroy but do not kill. Who killed peace activist Rachel Corrie if not a bulldozer whose driver, according to witnesses, saw her before he crushed her to death? And what about the Shubi family in the Nablus casbah - a grandfather, two aunts, a mother and two children - crushed under bulldozers? And who killed Jamal Faid, a handicapped man from the Jenin camp, whose wheelchair only was found under the ruins of his house, with his body never recovered? Was that not bulldozer terror?

The Palestinians discovered the bulldozer quite late. What is good for us is good for them. And how do our security experts propose to fight the new fashion? By demolishing the houses of the terrorists. With bulldozers, of course.”
http:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1913

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By Sepharad, July 24, 2008 at 10:49 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Dear Nisser Ahmed al Naik,

It is such a relief to hear from someone who actually knows something of Arab/Jewish relations throughout history. As you say, Al Fadil, Ib’n Rush’d, Maimonides and Salah-ah-din were good friends who, in different ways, relied on and trusted one another. Maimonides did most of his writing in Arabic, including his work “Guide for the Perplexed.” (He envied Ib’n Rush’d, who had no problem reconciling philsophy and science with his God. Maimonides himself struggled with not knowing whether his God existed, and died still uncertain. He nevertheless did his best to hold the Jewish communities in Morocco and Egypt together.) He was a very wise man, not too “holy” to be politically astute, and also an excellent physician. Maimonides considered Salah-ah-din a truly great man, and served him as best he could though Salah-ah-din pushed himself despite Maimonides’ nagging,continued to sleep outdoors on long, strenuous campaigns, and died too young. As Salah-ah-din requested, after his death Maimonides watched over his sons who ruled different lands in the caliphate, guiding them through court treacheries as well as advising them on their diets and other health-promoting habits that we moderns would recognize.

Their lives and this period have always inspired me: it seems ludicrous that Arabs and Jews should be at each other’s throats the last couple of centuries. I’m working on several related books—Islamic Spain, Reconquista, Inquisition, then the Crusades—but since have 9/11 put that aside to try to understand what went wrong between two peoples so much alike, so much in common, children of the same lands and the same father Abraham.

Like you, I believe religious extremism wherever it occurs is dangerous, and blame it for many of the problems between the Israelis and the Arabs as well as Iranians (though I think the Arab elites have perpetuated, deliberately, the greater part of the Palestinians’ problems). I’m a secular Jew, progressive politics, have family in Israel who’ve been there for five generations now, since our great-great-grandfather ran away to Palestine from a Romanian pogrom in 1828—and have a few Arab and Iranian friends, though current events can strain our connections. One thing we all have in common is that most of us are not religious,which makes it easier to appreciate the beauties of our traditions and customs without feeling that we are betraying our Gods. On the other hand, I have no problems with people who are believers, as long as they tolerate people of different or no beliefs. Non-believers aren’t “better” than anyone else. To me, matters of God and the hereafter are mysteries; often find myself, after arguing hotly with either an atheist or a hyper-fundamentalist, saying “OK, enough already. I don’t know and neither do you.”)

You raise some interesting points re second-class citizens, which I’ll respond to in my next post. Have an ailing mare out in back I have to check on and tend to before my husband and I go to bed, so ... more later. Thank you for being there.

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By cann4ing, July 24, 2008 at 8:57 pm Link to this comment

Wow, Robert.  That is a remarkable story.  It should be in every U.S. newspaper.  I’d suggest that you contact TD directly and ask that they post it in their report section.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, July 24, 2008 at 7:04 pm Link to this comment

THE PALESTINIAN BAR MITZVAH

July 24, 2008 at 8:48 am (Israel, Palestine, Soldier Brutality)

“The following essay was written by Bassam Aramin, the father of the gorgeous child pictured at the left. Abir was only 10 years old when she was brutally murdered by Israeli soldiers while at play in her schoolyard.

Bassam is an active member of a Palestinian/Israeli organisation known as Combatants for Peace. Despite his personal loss and suffering, he has never lost his vision for peace in this region.

The following is a personal account of the continuing struggle…..

My son Arab is 14, just past the age that his Jewish Israeli peers are celebrating their Bar Mitzvahs. This ceremony in Jewish culture is a rite of passage that marks a boy’s entrance into the realities and responsibilities of adulthood. And last week, my son experienced something akin to the Palestinian Bar Mitzvah.

It was a beautiful day on Friday the 12 July when Arab went with his friends to the beach in Tiberias. He spent all of his time in the days leading up to the trip trying to convince me that I should let him go. At first I refused — he’s young to be traveling so far in a group without his parents. But then I remembered the regret I still feel about the death of my daughter Abir.

Abir was ten when she was killed by Israeli occupation forces on 16 January 2007 in front of her school in Anata. That morning, when she asked her mother and me for permission to play with her friends after school, I’d refused. I told her, “Don’t even think of coming home late, come back right away so you can prepare for your next exam.” And she answered me with the last words I ever heard from her, petulant and innocent. “Well, I’m going to be late.” She was angry with me. She was late that day, but not because she met her friends. A bullet from an Israeli border patrolman found her instead, and she never came back. I regret having refused her request, not knowing that it would be her last — that she would be late despite me and despite herself.

When I saw how much Arab wanted to go, I thought of Abir and gave my permission with the condition that he look after himself and be in constant phone contact with me.

Arab and his friends Rafet, Saleh and Mohammad got themselves ready for a day at the beach, and the bus set out at 7:00am. There were about 45 passengers: Arab and nine of his peers, who range in age from 14 to 17; the rest were families and children and a group of girls Arab’s age, all legal residents of Israel with East Jerusalem IDs. I was pleased with how happy Arab was during the time he called to check in. Arab loved Abir fiercely, and her death was an awful blow especially to him, the oldest of her siblings. I was so glad to hear joy in his voice again.

At 11:00pm Arab called me and said they had almost made it back and he’d be home in half an hour. But 11:30 came and went. At exactly 12:00am I called him, angry that he was late. He answered in a hushed voice with words that chilled me.”
=============

Click on URL for the rest the story regarding how Israel’s IDF brutalizes Palestinian children…

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/the-palestinian-bar-mitzvah/

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By Tony Wicher, July 23, 2008 at 11:53 pm Link to this comment

I’m not too worried. I wish all Zionists would follow Lieberman, go Republican, and get crushed in November.

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By cann4ing, July 23, 2008 at 9:16 pm Link to this comment

Robert, it’s worse than I thought.  Check out Keith Olbermann on Count Down.  Lieberman not only met with and praised Rev. John Hagee, but he compared that Christian fundamentalist nut case to—Moses!

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, July 23, 2008 at 7:08 pm Link to this comment

Israeli Army examines shooting video

07.20.2008 | Reuters
by

Jul 20 - Video of an Israeli soldier apparently shooting a blind-folded Palestinian detainee at close range has been released by an Israeli human rights group.

B’Tselem say the incident took place during protests against Israel’s West Bank barrier about two weeks ago.

The video is blurred when the gunfire echoes and it is unclear whether the Palestinian was hit.


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1900

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By Robert, July 23, 2008 at 7:02 pm Link to this comment

Ernest…Check this out & who some of the speakers are:

Washington-Israel Summit
   

CUFI’s Third Annual Washington-Israel Summit in Washington, D.C.
at the Washington Convention Center

July 21-24, 2008
Your Chance to Vote for Israel

We’re going back to Washington for Christians United for Israel’s Third Annual Washington-Israel Summit on July 21 to July 24.  You need to be there with us!

We’re bringing together some of the most influential leaders and thinkers in Washington to update you on recent developments in the Middle East and in Washington.  We’re holding a Night to Honor Israel down the street from the Capitol with Senator Joseph Lieberman and Pastor John Hagee.  And we’re going to Congress so that each of you can share your support for Israel directly with your elected officials.  You won’t want to miss our largest and most important Summit yet!

Israel’s critics are speaking out and making gains.  Our intelligence community is ignoring the threat of a nuclear Iran.  More voices in Congress are calling for an end to aid to Israel.  And the Administration may soon pressure Israel to divide Jerusalem.  With all of these threats emerging, it is more important than ever that pro-Israel Christians make their voices heard!  CUFI’s Washington Summit is your chance to make a difference.  Join us in Washington!


http://www.cufi.org/site/PageServer?pagename=events_washington_summit

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By cann4ing, July 23, 2008 at 4:43 pm Link to this comment

Robert, on the plus side, there was this:

“Obama is visitng Jerusalem and the occupied West Bank.  In some of his most even-handed comments on the Israel-Palestine issue to date, Obama said the US government should recognized what he called the Palestinians’ ‘legitimate difficulties.’

Senator Obama:  “What I think can change is the ability of the United States…to be actively engaged in the peace process and to be concerned and recognize the legitimate difficulties that the Palestinian people are experiencing right now.  And recognize that it is not only in the interest of the Palestinian people that their situation improves,...it’s also in the interest of the Israeli people, because it is going to be very difficult for Israel to ever feel secure if you don’t have some sense of opportunity and prosperity and stability with its—its neighbors.”

Despite past statements suggesting one-sided support for Israel, “Palestinian lawmaker Hanan Ashrawi said Obama is nonetheless raising hopes for a change in US policy.”

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/7/23/headlines#4

On the negative side, despite being presented with a petition by the J Street Project bearing more than 40,000 signatures pleading with him not to do so, Joe Liebermann met with the right-wing Christian fundamentalist Hagee.

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By Robert, July 23, 2008 at 10:40 am Link to this comment

ISRAELI STYLE JUSTICE

July 23, 2008 at 6:44 am (Israel, Occupied West Bank, Palestine, Soldier Brutality)

(Ben Heine © Cartoons)
Israeli shooter sent back to unit

An Israeli soldier detained after being filmed opening fire at a bound and blindfolded Palestinian from close range has been released from custody.

The soldier was sent back to his unit after lawyers argued he did not pose a danger to anyone, Israeli reports said. Obviously the lawyers do not consider Palestinians to be ‘anyone’.

He was shown firing a rubber coated bullet at the detainee’s foot as other soldiers stand around watching.

The footage was taken by a Palestinian girl living nearby and released Israeli human rights campaigners.

Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak condemned the incident saying it was “grave and wrong” and that the military would exact the full extent of the law. Full extent of the law apparently means being returned to active duty so he might kill a Palestinian next time rather than just wounding him.

Human rights group B’Tselem released the footage on Sunday. The shooting happened two weeks earlier in Nilin in the West Bank, scene of frequent Palestinian anti-occupation demonstrations.

Israeli press reports say the soldier told investigators that his commander had told him to shoot the Palestinian, who has been identified as Ashraf Abu Rahma. Why wasn’t the commander ‘investigated’ as well?

The Israeli army issued a statement calling the incident “grave” and in “direct contradiction” of its values. yet nothing was done about it…
Mr Abu Rahma was treated for a bruised toe by army medics and has not filed a complaint with the military. The military would deny receiving such a complaint even if it was filed. They would then proceed to deny it as they have done in other instances.

B’Tselem has distributed dozens of cameras to West Bank Palestinians with the aim of recording human rights abuses by the Israeli army and Jewish settlers.

Last month, it released footage showing an apparent assault by masked stick-wielding settlers against Palestinian farmers.

See the original of this article incuding a video of the incident HERE


http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/israeli-style-justice/

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By cann4ing, July 21, 2008 at 8:55 am Link to this comment

Robert, it is unfortunate but in the tiny minds of the Zionists, any news that is critical of Israel’s brutal occupation is “biased.”  In their minds, it matters not whether a Noam Chomsky or a Norm Finkelstein speaks truth about the apartheid regime erected by Israel in the West Bank.  Zionism is a racist ideology.  It vilifies the Palestinian and extols the virtues of the IDF in much the same way as racist propaganda during the Jim Crow regime in the American South once vilified the African-American at the same time it extolled the virtues of the KKK.

Racist ideologies create fear and loathing of the other—a process of dehumanization that creates a psychic distance that the perpetrators and the atrocities they commit as virtuous.  Consider “Without Sanctuary” a gruesome pictorial of lynching in America which quoted a contemporaneous justification of the practice as applied to blacks who cast “lustful eyes on white women,” which appeared in a Little Rock newspaper.  “This may be ‘Southern brutality’ as far as the Boston Negro can see, but in polite circles, we call it Southern chivalry, a Southern virtue that will never die.”

The level of dehumanization in the Zionist is so great that any who question the gruesome practices of the IDF is seen as immoral, biased, a Nazi or a self-hating Jew.  There reasoning is not logical.  To the contrary, it is immune to logic, so the only thing left open to them is to either ignore exposure of their illogical rants (which, so far, Sepharad has done since I called him out) or to respond with name-calling rants (Lefty’s usual response to your academic posts).

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By Mossada, July 21, 2008 at 2:30 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The rich eat the poor.  They always did and they always will.

Then the heads of state lay wreaths at the tomb of the unknown soldier.  Cannonizing and Paying lip service to men and women who die for the benefit of Government policy.  The same government which serves their paymasters, the Corporations.

Right now the new bad guys, according to the mainstream media, are the subhuman dirty stinking muslims.  Before that it was the communists.  Before that it was Indians.  Before that it was the South (or North depending on which side of the gun barrel you were facing).  Before that it was the British.  On and on, fight after fight, war after war. 

And so the Pentagon, Wall Street, the Weapons manufacturers, Oil companies and Corporations, which contol the media, play their little game.  And all the while we all salute the flag blindly, unquestioning, and just sing from the same hymn sheet provided by our betters. 

Meanwhile the jobs are gone.  The future is gone. For the common man (and woman) the community is dissolute and disconnected, dispairing and fearful.  The corporations rule us and we are distracted by the cheap flag waving Fox News expose with weapons we will use to sort out these uppity foreigners (currently Iran) who get out of line.  Never mind what the CIA did in the past.  We,The Good Guys, have to deal with their “evil”.

The govenment learned their lesson well from Vietnam.  Now the Soldier is projected as a saint in the News Media and Hollywood.  Not for his or her benefit, rather as a political firewall to anyone questioning their government´s actions.

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By Robert, July 20, 2008 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment

By Sepharad, July 18 at 11:23 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

“Lefty,

Don’t let the reincarnated Nazis (Robert is probably the worst but some of the others are also pretty frightening)get you down. The guy who thinks it’s OK to be a Nazi because his mother is a Russian Jew is probably just another one of the self-hating Jews David Mamet writes about. The problem with so many of these guys, whatever their background, is that they do most of their research on the Net and as you know it’s possible to find any kind of narrowly focused BS googling around. The regular media coverage is somewhat better but since the ‘70s late there has been a lot of anti-Israel bias out there too. (Honest Reporting monitors and attempts to work with such outlets: they’ve gotten many major retractions from everyone from Reuters to BBC, where facts have been scrambled and pictures faked.)”
===========================
Sepharad…from what I can see what you are trying to say here is that to criticize Israel’s and its IDF’s actions against Palestinians/Arabs is in your mind “nazism”, anti-semitic, self-hating Jews and so on.

I see that you are hurling those AIPAC methods & tactics to attempt to silence people who try to tell the truth about those poor Israel’s IDF/army who have every sophisticated US made weapon to use against mostly an unarmed civilian population.

Those Hamass rockets that you mentioned are nothing compared to what Israel has in its many large stockpiled arsenals. Our July 4th firecrackers are more accurate than those homemade so-called rockets.

BTW, the Internet has more accurate reporting of the news and/or facts when compared with our AIPAC controlled News media/corporations. I do watch Amy Goodman on DEMOCRACYNOW. Amy is a brilliant journalist.

Sephard, I am so glad that we have several scholars like Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, Sara Roy, Jennifer Leuwenstein, Avnari, Levi and many more who are on the side of humanity, justice, international law, fairness & truth. I am glad that they are NOT on the side Israel’s IDF brutalities, zionism’s racism & Apartheid policies.

You can hurl those well known AIPAC’s tactics/method to try to silence the truth…it just ain’t going to work on a lot of people who know the truth and are NOT intimidated to bring it out for all to see & read.

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By cann4ing, July 20, 2008 at 10:02 am Link to this comment

Shepharad:  I’m having a little trouble following your logic, or perhaps more accurately, the lack thereof.  Please explain how calling for an end to a 40 year brutal occupation and the killing of innocent children (both Israeli and Palestinian), quoting studies, including those offered by journalists from Haaretz and the Israeli human rights organization, B’Tselem, which studies document the brutality and arbitrary practices of the IDF, or making an academic comparison between the plight of Palestinians trapped inside the Gaza Strip and the plight of Jews inside the Warsaw Ghetto during the early period of WW II, makes one either a Nazi or a self-hating Jew?

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By Nissar Ahmed A. Naik, July 20, 2008 at 12:26 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I enjoyed reading the very balanced and scholarly views of Sepharad.
In response I have the following.
Maimonides, Al Fadil, Ibn Rashd, and Salahuddin not only co-existed in relative peace, there is reason to believe they were on very friendly terms. Maimonides was greatly influenced by Al Ghazali along with Ibn Rashd. He even had his secular education in a Moroccan University. Considering all these things he was an astonishing combination of both Muslim and Jewish influence. Many Muslim scholars respected him. Even today he is acknowledged as a great ‘Arab’ thinker in Arab academic circles.
I am not a scholar of history but I think the survival of Jewish and Christian communities in an ocean of Muslim population for a period of more than 1400 years in a vast area could not have been possible without a remarkable degree of tolerance. If you compare it to what happened in just a decade in Spain after the fall of Granada you can understand its significance. Considering the vast area and long period under consideration there are bound to be some aberrations.
This tolerance is reflected in the continuous history of the Coptic Church which even today retains its ancient Coptic language for religious purposes. This tolerance was aptly summed up by the chief Catholic Cleric of   Palestine when he said vehemently in a BBC interview: “We have absolutely no problem with Hamas, nor are we afraid of it, after all we have lived together peacefully with Muslims for last 1400 years without any problem, but we have serious problems with Israel.”
Coming to the point of migration of Jews from Arab countries to Israel, I seriously doubt discrimination against them was the main reason. I can say this, because the idea of a Jewish state had such a magnetic pull on Jews everywhere that Jews have almost disappeared from where I come from, i.e. the western coast of India near Bombay and also from Kerala where there was absolutely no discrimination against them. All of them have migrated to Israel.
I do not like fundamentalists of any hue, Islamic or otherwise. But if the term ‘Islamic fundamentalist’ means strict follower of Islamic laws literally, then a fundamentalist can never be part of any forced conversion, because of the Islamic injunction “There is no compulsion in religion.” An Islamic fundamentalist cannot contradict a Hadith (tradition or saying of the prophet). Let me quote here a Hadith: “If you encounter a funeral of a Jew or a Christian in the street, offer your shoulder.”
Islam respects the scriptures and prophets of both Christians and Jews and calls these communities “People of Scriptures”. A devote Muslim never utters the name of any of the Jewish / Christian prophets without the appendage “Peace be upon him”. For example “Musa Alaihi Salaam” means “ Moses –peace be upon him-.”

Coming to the point of ‘second class citizens’, if Israel has a glaring example of second class citizens (Israeli Arabs) in the 21st century, can we blame the people in less enlightened times?

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By mrmb, July 19, 2008 at 10:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

A few points to ponder:

Zionism in all its forms is to be rejected. AIPAC has gotten a lot of bad press in the alternative news media and rightfully so. The problem with AIPAC is not that its a neo crazy zionist bastion but that its a zionist organization. To assume that a liberal or left leaning zionist organization is fine is to fall in a dangerous trap.

Zionism in all its stripes is racist, militarist and expansionist and its a deviant political ideology.

If the new voices that will be jewish reject zionism and apply judaic principles to their vision and dialogue then we will get somewhere with arabs and muslims. Else its a trap for all parties concerned. It will only prolong the zionist grip on our polity.

The dialogue needs to become part of a broader inter faith dialogues that have been going on and ever expanding.

Leaving this sensitive issue to morons like king george and nancy pelosi and barack and mccane or perez and their like is pure insanity.

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By Robert, July 19, 2008 at 12:13 pm Link to this comment

Thanks Ernest,

I’ll look up & search the “J street project”. I was not familiar with it. We need many brave people to help stop this mad killing of innocent children & people on both sides of the conflict.

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By cann4ing, July 19, 2008 at 7:55 am Link to this comment

Robert, thanks for the statistical update.  It looks like the ratio of the number of Palestinian vs. Israeli children has increased from 5:1 when Levy posted his article in Haaretz in 2004 to nearly 10:1 by 2008.  Either way, the real question is why the combined total of 1,173 innocent children (both Israeli & Palestinian) killed as a result of this illegal occupation has not brought a more significant alignment between Israeli and Palestinian progressives sufficient to force an end to the madness.  It should cause all Americans of good will to say, “enough!”

But these statistics, any many other salient features of IDF brutality, go largely unreported in the U.S. corporate media.  So the brutality, the bulldozing of Palestinian homes, the erection of new settlements and an apartheid wall on Palestinian territory, arbitrary arrests, detentions, torture and the many roadblocks that make life impossible for Palestinians continue, unabated.

That is what makes the J Street Project so significant.  Who better to tell it like it is than a group of progressive American Jews who are not afraid of speaking truth to power?  No doubt, if the project begins having a measure of success, the Zionists will excoriate them with the same label they pinned on Prof. Finkelstein, whom they refer to as a “self-hating Jew.”

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By Sepharad, July 19, 2008 at 12:23 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Lefty,

Don’t let the reincarnated Nazis (Robert is probably the worst but some of the others are also pretty frightening)get you down. The guy who thinks it’s OK to be a Nazi because his mother is a Russian Jew is probably just another one of the self-hating Jews David Mamet writes about. The problem with so many of these guys, whatever their background, is that they do most of their research on the Net and as you know it’s possible to find any kind of narrowly focused BS googling around. The regular media coverage is somewhat better but since the ‘70s late there has been a lot of anti-Israel bias out there too. (Honest Reporting monitors and attempts to work with such outlets: they’ve gotten many major retractions from everyone from Reuters to BBC, where facts have been scrambled and pictures faked.)

There is tons of printed information out there, fantastic research libraries and archives can be accessed increasingly, but people are forgotting how to read books and how to find and evaluate documents and primary sources. In earlier posts I’ve tried to put some balanced sources out there but doubt anyone will actually look them up. Objectivity is becoming a lost art, and trendy advocacy is the thing today. (I’m an old-school journalist and, having edited both history and journalism review periodicals, have watched this with a sinking heart for quite a while.)

To understand Israel, Jews and Arabs takes a great deal of study, but everyone who wants to have an opinion is not willing to make the effort. Also, many younger people do not have the same emotional reaction to Israel that people who remember the ‘48 and ‘67 wars do. The very fact that Israel survived repeated massive attacks by the Arabs makes non-thinking people who want to be seen as cool, liberal, hip,  progressive, and not understanding that Israel was and remains the underdog, pop on keffiyehs and automatically support the Arabs, who are in fact as a group many times richer, far more violent, ridiculously more numerous and possess far more land, most of it with oil (of which Israel has not a drop).

Unfortunately, part of the problem is that the only Jews many people approve of are dead Jews. Anne Frank is a heroine, but Jews who refuse to be murdered are villainous. The IDF does what it can to prevent the death of noncombatants, but Hamas and Hezbollah, death-worshipping fascists who understand that dead civilians make good pr, launch missiles targeting civilians and fight in the midst of heavily populated areas. They also have a tenuous relationship with the truth, and are damned good at pr. (Israelis were never very good at spin; they can be tactless, blunt, and don’t bother sugarcoating the truth.) Every Israeli and every IDF member is not a saint: the 900,000 Jews and their descendants who were expelled from Arab countries after the ‘48 war and taken in by Israel tend to be less trusting, skeptical of any peace prospects. Also there’s a real problem with orthodox extremists—fundamentalists, whether Jewish, Christian or Moslem, aren’t into compromise. Yet most Zionists were atheists, from Ariel Sharon to Amos Oz, and the majority of Israelis want a secular government. On the whole, Israelis, under constant attack by those who want to exterminate them, respond far more moderately than any other country would. I resent blanket accusations of brutal IDF behavior. My nephew, a captain, was killed during the 2nd intifada in Jenin. His unit was pursuing fighters, and securing buildings from which weapons had been fired. A Palestinian onlooker told him that an elderly man in a wheelchair had been trapped on the second floor. Gabriel told his men to wait, walked into the building to get the man out before his troops entered to take up positions. It was booby-trapped and blew up, killing him.

Israel WILL fight to the last man, woman and child if need be to survive. But they’d rather cooperate with neighbors who accept their right to exist.

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By Tony Wicher, July 18, 2008 at 10:08 pm Link to this comment

Re cann4ing, July 18 at 7:56 pm

Most likely, but you never know.

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By cann4ing, July 18, 2008 at 8:56 pm Link to this comment

TW—I believe our Lefty suffers from a form of psychopathology brought on by dehumanization embodied in Zionist ideology which causes him to see all Arabs and Muslims as less than human.  It entails what Professors Phillip Zimbardo & Sam Keen describe as the “hostile imagination” that “is created by virtually every nation’s propaganda on its path to war….”  “The process, Zimbardo tells us, “begins with stereotyped conceptions of the other…conceptions of the other as worthless, the other as all-powerful…the other as a fundamental threat to our cherished values and beliefs.  With public fear notched up and enemy threat imminent, reasonable people act irrationally, independent people act in mindless conformity and peaceful people act as warriors.  Dramatic visual images of the enemy on posters, magazine covers, movies, and the internet imprint on the recesses of the limbic system, the primitive brain, with the powerful emotions of fear and hate.”

The dramatic impact of dehumanization found its embodiment in the testimony of Vietnam vet Scott Camile’s testimony at the Feb. 1971 “Winter Soldier” hearings in Philadelphia.  After he described how members of his unit, in the presence of a Lt. Col., beheaded two people, leaving their heads on stakes in the middle of a field, Camile was asked whether the men in his unit felt they could do anything they wanted to the Vietnamese.  Camile replied:  “It wasn’t like they were humans, like we were—you know, we were conditioned to believe that…this was for the good of our country, and anything we did was okay.  And like, when you shot someone, you didn’t think you were shooting a human.  They were a gook or a Commie, and it was okay.”

While it may be possible for a professional therapist to pierce the cortical cataract brought on by the severe degree of Lefty’s hostile imagination, I sincerely doubt that any effort by any of us to try to do so via TD will have any effect whatsoever.

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By Tony Wicher, July 18, 2008 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment

Robert,

Thanks, Robert. I have been working hard on ways of saying things that get through to people instead of antagonizing them. Lefty is a tough nut to crack, I must say.

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By Robert, July 18, 2008 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment

By cann4ing, July 18 at 5:36 pm #

“TW, I would respectfully disagree that anything Robert has posted about Zionism equates to “a Nazi stereotype of Jews.” You confuse Zionism (an ideology held not only by right wing Jews but many right wing Christian fundamentalists) with the ethnicity of being Jewish—something to which I have at least a 50% claim.  My father was British but my mother was a Russian Jew.  My Jewish friends tell me that makes me Jewish even though I’m an atheist—one
has to wonder where, in their minds, that left my father.

The post from Robert which triggered your erroneous observation entailed a remark IDF killers not spending any time in prison even for killing children.  If you think this a stereotype, you are uninformed.

Consider this exerpt from the 10/17/04 article by Gideon levy, “Killing children is no longer a big deal” which was originally published in Haaretz and later quoted by Prof. Finkelstein in “Beyond Chutzpah.”

“More than 30 Palestinian children were killed in the first two weeks of Operation Days of Penitence in the Gaza Strip….Whereas in the overall count of all victims of the intifada the ration is three Palestinians killed for every Israeli killed, when it comes to children the ratio is 5:1.  Accrding to B’Tselem…even before the current operation in Gaza, 557 Palestinian minors (below the age of 18) were killed….42 of the children who were killed were 10; 20 were seven; and eight were two years old….The youngest are 13 newborn infants who died at checkpoints during births.

“With horrific statistics like this, the question of who is a terrorist should have long since become very burdensome for every Israeli.  Yet it is not on the public agenda.  Child killers are always the Paestinians, the soldiers always only defend us and themselves, and the hell with the statistics.

“...An army that kills so many children is an army with no restraints, an army that has lost its moral code.”

Was Mr. Levy, an Israeli, exhibiting a Nazi stereotype about Zionists or the IDF?  Obviously not, and neither did Robert.

By the way, TW & Robert, I previously posted as Ernest Canning.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ernest, I knew it was you all the way.

Take a look at the statistics regarding the number of children killed since Sept.29, 2000:

1050 Palestinian children killed; 123 Israeli children.

The total number of Palestinian children killed(alone) by Israel’s IDF is almost the same as the total number of Israelis killed = 1057.

The total number of Palestinian killed = 4,862.

—————-
Statistics

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.

It is the goal of If Americans Knew to provide full and accurate information on this critical issue, and on our power – and duty – to bring a resolution.


Statistics

Last Updated: July 17, 2008
Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed Since September 29, 2000

123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,050 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Source)

Chart showing that approximately 5 times more Palestinian children have been killed than Israeli children

Israelis and Palestinians Killed Since September 29, 2000

Chart showing that 3 to 4 times more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis.   

1,057 Israelis and at least 4,862 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Source)

————————————

Click on URL to see statics & charts:


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

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By Robert, July 18, 2008 at 7:16 pm Link to this comment

By Tony Wicher, July 18 at 3:56 pm #

Robert,

It was my mother who told me that it’s not only the truth of what you say that counts, but also how you say it.
============================

By Tony Wicher, July 18 at 3:17 pm #

Robert,

By “verbal terrorism” I just mean your confrontational style. As a peace advocate I would like to promote dialogue between the opponents on this issue. There is no other way to make progress. When I see you and lefty going at it, it is verbal war, not dialogue.
=======================

Tony,

First, from what you say about what your mother told you regarding truth & how one says it…your mother has great wisdom.

Second, you bring up “lefty” as an example for dialogue. Tony, you know as well as I do…including Ernest that “lefty” is a strange mental case. I have seen some of your comments with “lefty” & if you want to call it dialogue that is ok with me.

You can reason with “lefty” all you want to…no problem from my side.

In the meantime, keep up the good work for peace & take care.

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By PatrickHenry, July 18, 2008 at 7:15 pm Link to this comment

Believe in Karma?

I do, especially when a people bring it on themselves.

History repeats itself from time to time.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

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By cann4ing, July 18, 2008 at 6:36 pm Link to this comment

TW, I would respectfully disagree that anything Robert has posted about Zionism equates to “a Nazi stereotype of Jews.”  You confuse Zionism (an ideology held not only by right wing Jews but many right wing Christian fundamentalists) with the ethnicity of being Jewish—something to which I have at least a 50% claim.  My father was British but my mother was a Russian Jew.  My Jewish friends tell me that makes me Jewish even though I’m an atheist—one
has to wonder where, in their minds, that left my father.

The post from Robert which triggered your erroneous observation entailed a remark IDF killers not spending any time in prison even for killing children.  If you think this a stereotype, you are uninformed.

Consider this exerpt from the 10/17/04 article by Gideon levy, “Killing children is no longer a big deal” which was originally published in Haaretz and later quoted by Prof. Finkelstein in “Beyond Chutzpah.”

“More than 30 Palestinian children were killed in the first two weeks of Operation Days of Penitence in the Gaza Strip….Whereas in the overall count of all victims of the intifada the ration is three Palestinians killed for every Israeli killed, when it comes to children the ratio is 5:1.  Accrding to B’Tselem…even before the current operation in Gaza, 557 Palestinian minors (below the age of 18) were killed….42 of the children who were killed were 10; 20 were seven; and eight were two years old….The youngest are 13 newborn infants who died at checkpoints during births.

“With horrific statistics like this, the question of who is a terrorist should have long since become very burdensome for every Israeli.  Yet it is not on the public agenda.  Child killers are always the Paestinians, the soldiers always only defend us and themselves, and the hell with the statistics.

“...An army that kills so many children is an army with no restraints, an army that has lost its moral code.”

Was Mr. Levy, an Israeli, exhibiting a Nazi stereotype about Zionists or the IDF?  Obviously not, and neither did Robert.

By the way, TW & Robert, I previously posted as Ernest Canning.

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By Tony Wicher, July 18, 2008 at 4:56 pm Link to this comment

Robert,

It was my mother who told me that it’s not only the truth of what you say that counts, but also how you say it.

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By Tony Wicher, July 18, 2008 at 4:17 pm Link to this comment

Robert,

By “verbal terrorism” I just mean your confrontational style. As a peace advocate I would like to promote dialogue between the opponents on this issue. There is no other way to make progress. When I see you and lefty going at it, it is verbal war, not dialogue.

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By Mossada, July 18, 2008 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By William the Concurer, July 18 at 1:35 pm #

William
What kills me is the shamless cynicism of Polititians today, even with the benifit of history.  The criminally insane can´t get away with what these guys have been doing.

A simple case of GREED masquerading as Patriotism.  That´s why I never trust someone who wears his patriotism on his sleeve.  Or in this case on his lapel. Total…utter…Scoundrels.  I think Dr. Johnson would agree.

Just what has the American flag become?  A totem, an object of blind idolatry, a political tool for Politicians to manipulate the American people for their own nefarious projects?

These Neocons aren´t the idealogues they claim to be.  By sheer coincidence they always seem to be in a position of financially benefiting from Military action.  I could call them animals but I don´t recall animals doing that for a fast buck.

The Iranians are no saints but if they are paranoid they have good reason to be.  The CIA along with the British overthrew Irans ELECTED Prime Minister and installed the ruthless Shah.  For the next 25 years the Iranians got Titty Bars, Casinos and a murderous Secret Police.  I think the West had more to offer Iran than this Trio of gifts from the CIA.

God forbid this point of history should penetrate such flag waving bigots as Bill O Reilly or the Fox News Arm chair Hawks or Israel.  That would be a minor miracle.

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By Robert, July 18, 2008 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment

By cann4ing, July 18 at 10:27 am #

TW—I was surprised by your criticism of Robert on this.  Zionism is a racist ideology that dehumanizes both Arabs and progressive Jews who seek a more harmonious relationship with their Arab neighbors.  Robert’s critique of Zionism is not a critique of the Jewish people as such any more than those offered by the J-Street Project—an organization formed by progressive American Jews to counter the undue influence of AIPAC, whose neoconservative goals they reject.

If you haven’t already done so, I would strongly urge that you read Norm Finkelstein’s scholarly “Beyond Chutzpah:  On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History.”

Criticism of Zionism no more amounts to the rejection of Jews and Israelis as a people than criticism of Nazism amounts to a criticism and rejection of all Germans.  The reality is that you can find valid comparisons between the plight of Palestinians in Gaza and the separation wall and the early days of the Warsaw Ghetto at the outset of WW II.  Honest examination of that comparison does not make one anti-Semitic.  Likewise, I find nothing racist in Robert’s many astute evaluations of the impact of Israel’s 40 year brutal occupation of territories beyond its 1967 borders—a continuing violation of UN Resolution 242.
===================

Thanks Cann4ing. Your comments are always read by me . I see you standing on the side of the TRUTH. You are NOT watching from the sidelines.

I too was surprised by Tony’s remarks & criticism.  In his last comment, he says this about my comment:

“But the way he pictures Zionists does sound like a Nazi stereotype of Jews, doesn’t it? It’s inflamatory, a kind of verbal terrorism, calculated to raise Jewish defenses and so not helpful to the peace process.”

Wow…a kind of verbal terrorism! That is another surprise from TW. I am not offended. I know where to put me feet. I am on the side of Norman Finkelstein and its an honor for my position.

I am on the side of the TRUTH.

Again, many thanks with kind regards.

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By William the Concurer, July 18, 2008 at 2:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Mossada

Yes I made a comparison to people like Cheney who resemble Crassus. In his case it would have to be boiling oil.

Sadly modern political leaders are cowards. They would never lead Armies into battle where they could get hurt.

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By Tony Wicher, July 18, 2008 at 12:20 pm Link to this comment

By cann4ing, July 18 at 10:27 am #

Hey, I agree with everything you say. I’m already a big fan of Finkelstein, as you can see from my last post. Many of Robert’s facts are accurate, too. But the way he pictures Zionists does sound like a Nazi stereotype of Jews, doesn’t it? It’s inflamatory, a kind of verbal terrorism, calculated to raise Jewish defenses and so not helpful to the peace process. But I loved the link he gave us to the Finkelstein interview. That’s the way to do it! Be objective, dispassionate, crystal clear, but don’t dehumanize your opponent.

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By Tony Wicher, July 18, 2008 at 11:52 am Link to this comment

Robert,

I watched the discussion between Finkelstein and the Sharon senior advisor. It was great. I’m a Finkelstein groupie. He absolutely blew holes in the Sharon advisor’s arguments. Israel and the United States have been blocking the enforcement of the clear will of the international community and undermining international law for 30 years. This had better change under an Obama administration or I will join those who say there’s no difference between Obama and Bush.

Yet the Sharon advisor is presented as a human being with legitimate concerns for the safety of Jewish people living in the OPT. IF your policy is to defy international law and build illegal settlements, then, sure, we can’t have people being blown up, no matter who they are, and nobody should excuse deny or minimize the 1000 Israelis blown up by suicide bombers for any reason at all. Such actions do constitute murder and do provide Israelis with justification for building the wall and for killing 5000 in “self-defense”. These actions should therefore be condemned by everyone, including those who have the welfare of Palestinians at heart. Yet by far the greatest responsibility does lie with Israel (and their U.S. enabler) for failing to comply with international law and so creating this situation, as Finkelstein states with his usual crystal clarity.

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By cann4ing, July 18, 2008 at 11:27 am Link to this comment

TW—I was surprised by your criticism of Robert on this.  Zionism is a racist ideology that dehumanizes both Arabs and progressive Jews who seek a more harmonious relationship with their Arab neighbors.  Robert’s critique of Zionism is not a critique of the Jewish people as such any more than those offered by the J-Street Project—an organization formed by progressive American Jews to counter the undue influence of AIPAC, whose neoconservative goals they reject.

If you haven’t already done so, I would strongly urge that you read Norm Finkelstein’s scholarly “Beyond Chutzpah:  On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History.”

Criticism of Zionism no more amounts to the rejection of Jews and Israelis as a people than criticism of Nazism amounts to a criticism and rejection of all Germans.  The reality is that you can find valid comparisons between the plight of Palestinians in Gaza and the separation wall and the early days of the Warsaw Ghetto at the outset of WW II.  Honest examination of that comparison does not make one anti-Semitic.  Likewise, I find nothing racist in Robert’s many astute evaluations of the impact of Israel’s 40 year brutal occupation of territories beyond its 1967 borders—a continuing violation of UN Resolution 242.

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By Robert, July 18, 2008 at 10:38 am Link to this comment

By Tony Wicher, July 18 at 8:54 am #

Robert, July 18 at 7:43 am #

“Robert,

Israel’s water problem is an interesting fact. Sucking it all up for their own use is a great way to finish the ethnic cleansing job that is the essence of the Zionist project - Palestinians can either die of thirst or move elsewhere.

However, I don’t like the way you talk about Israel and Zionism because you deny the humanity of Israelis and Zionists as much as you say they deny the humanity of the Arabs, which makes you sound like a Nazi.”
=========================

Tony…many Israelis, many zionists & many IDF do see “Arabs/Palestinians” as sub-humans. One can see Israel’s IDF murdering Palestinian women & children almost on a weekly basis.

IDF killers have NO value for Palestinian lives. They see them as animals and/or sub-humans.

IDF KILLERS NEVER SPEND ONE HOUR IN PRISON FOR KILLING A PALESTINIAN…A 9 YEAR CHILD…OR ANY OTHER…THESE ARE FACTS!

Take a look at what Ariel Sharon’s adviser has to say about Palestinians during a recent short debate with Norman Finkelstein.
~~~~~

Norman Finkelstein versus Ariel Sharon’s Advisor on The Wall

Riz Khan - Israel’s Separation Wall - 10 July 08

07.10.2008 | YouTube.com

The Israeli separation wall making its way through the West Bank cuts to the heart of the Palestinian-Israeli issue:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1861

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By Tony Wicher, July 18, 2008 at 9:54 am Link to this comment

Robert, July 18 at 7:43 am #

Robert,

Israel’s water problem is an interesting fact. Sucking it all up for their own use is a great way to finish the ethnic cleansing job that is the essence of the Zionist project - Palestinians can either die of thirst or move elsewhere.

However, I don’t like the way you talk about Israel and Zionism because you deny the humanity of Israelis and Zionists as much as you say they deny the humanity of the Arabs, which makes you sound like a Nazi. Arabs are dogs and Israelis are inhuman monsters. This leads to nothing good. No, Zionists are human beings who are primarily motivated by fear. “Never forget” is their cry. Their fear that anti-Semitism will rise up again and lead to a second Holocaust is very real. They think the only answer to this threat is “Jewish power”, and they are very clever, dedicated and persistent. What they do not understand is that this very fear, this attitude of “never forget” which leads to the drive for Jewish power and to the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, is engendering and perpetuating the very anti-Semitism they fear.

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By wag, July 18, 2008 at 9:33 am Link to this comment

Many thanks to Scott Ritter for this critically important article.  I could not find House Resolution 362.  Senate Resolution 580 has something to do with recognizing pollinators or something like that.  Could Scott correct these references?
Again, thank you for your work.

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By Robert, July 18, 2008 at 8:43 am Link to this comment

Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:20 am

ISRAEL’S “RIGHT” TO WATER – VS-
THE “SUB-HUMAN” ARABS

Posted by Peter Chamberlin

“The following article by Stephen Lendman on the extreme water crisis in Israel and Palestine (Refuse to call Palestine “Territories”!) is a good place to begin to discuss the problem caused by Israel’s decision to take control of all available water. This creates a two-edged problem, one is the life-threatening thirst of the Palestinians (who are watching helplessly as Israel cordons off all available surface water and sucks the underground aquifers dry which feed Palestinian deep wells), the second, more critical problem that concerns the entire world, is Israeli belief in their inalienable right to demand from people whatever they want, because of some alleged “Divine Birthright.”
In this case, demanding all available water underneath Israel/Palestine, will become a demand for Lebanon’s water flowing through the Litani River whenever the water crisis in Israel hits predetermined “red lines.” Israel’s Lake Kinneret reservoir is within days of hitting the red line, where the pumps will not reach the water and further pumping would cause massive ecological damage. The coastal and mountain aquifers are getting so low that seawater is beginning to infiltrate them. Desalination plants, one of Israel’s proudest technological achievements, cannot be used for irrigation, because the filtering process also eliminates vital minerals, which stunts plant growth.
Anyone who studies Israeli history will know that the Zionist state will not go thirsty when so many “sub-human” Arabs in nearby Lebanon have plenty of the life-giving element. This water shortage represents a greater “existential threat” to Israel than Iran ever could. This may be Israel’s motivation for forcing the United States into picking a fight with Iran.
“The Chosen People” believe that their rights come directly from God and that He gave them “dominion” over every living animal, and Arabs are considered to be one of the lowest life forms. They think they have the right to demand what they want and the “sheeple” of the world have to give it to them. The Zionist beliefs of our own government have caused our leaders to bow-down before their masters’ commands. We are about to punish the world for refusing to bow to our dominant world masters, by nuking large areas of the Middle East to make Israel “safe” from the retribution of the millions of innocent people who have suffered because of previous Israeli demands upon the sheeple of the Earth.
If all of the people of the Middle East had acknowledged the modern state of Israel as “God Himself” upon this earth, then would it still have been necessary to kill a million or more Iraqis and God knows how many Iranians? Were all these casualties of “wars for Israel” simply the result of collateral damage to the advancement of the Zionist plan, or did the Israeli “Golem” just want to eliminate “X amount” of “useless eaters”?
The Zionist state faces one real “existential threat,” its imminent collapse, due to its corrupt foundation and the price to be paid for its criminal policies. This is the same “existential threat” we are trying to resist here in America today, our Nation too, is crumbling due to the corrupt Zionist model our leaders have forced us into.
Zionism was never a movement to save the Jews; it has always been a movement to enthrone the Jews over the entire human race. Neither Israel nor the Jews are God Incarnate on this earth; neither is the Pope. It is time this Nation and this world awoke from the spell cast by the purveyors of the “Chosen People” mythology. The Jews have no more of the One Creator within them than either you or I.
Drought, Israeli Policy Threaten West Bank Water
By Stephen Lendman”

http://worldpressnetwork.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=347

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By Mossada, July 17, 2008 at 11:52 pm Link to this comment
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By William the Concurer, July 17 at 7:29 pm #

William
I read the Parthian King told Crassus his only motivation for invading Parthia was motivated by greed.  And since gold is what he worshipped then gold he will get.

To which he poured molten gold down Crassus´ mouth.

A bit like what motivates “President” Cheney and his Halliburton friends.

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By William the Concurer, July 17, 2008 at 8:29 pm Link to this comment
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For the Militaristic Anti-Iranian posters I recommend to look up the Battle of Carrhae.

This battle was one of the most unexpected disasters for Western Armies. The Roman General and greedy wealth seeking Politician Marcus Licinius Crassus believed that he could conquer Mesopotamia(Iraq) and Persia/Parthia(Iran) and take its wealth for himself, the same as certain individuals in the US Government today.

Crassus led about 7 Legions plus auxiliary forces(around 40,000 troops) into what is today Iraq. Where he found Arab “supporters” who “helped” him by marching his Army into the desert. And when he needed his Arab “allies” to attack the Persians or Parthians(as they were called then) they disappeared.

The Parthians were perceived to be weak enemies and they had only assembled about 1/4 to 1/3 of the force Crassus had. The Romans expected the battle to be a “cakewalk”. Once the Legions had assembled and the Roman’s Light Cavalry had broken up the ranks of the Parthians the Roman Infantry would simply march in with their armored formation and wipe out their Parthian enemies.

The Roman Infantry was unmatched, it was the modern fighting force of its time. Its Armor and Weapons were designed for close quarters combat and survivability on any battlefield. Roman troops received extensive training and were a professional force(they were well known for their combat engineering skills). They have many things in common with the US Military today, including garrisoning “provinces” gained through conquest.

The Parthians were the successors of the Persian Empire. Persia had been taken over by Central Asian Indo-European clans which removed the Greek families from power(which had ruled since Alexander the Great defeated Darius III) and established their own Empire, the Parthian Empire.

Parthia(Persia) did not have the wealth or power of Rome, it also lacked an Army comparable to Rome’s. Parthian Military commander Surena(this may have been a title) chose not to fight the Romans as they wanted to. Attacking the Romans directly would be suicide. But if the Romans were in the open he could bombard them with missiles(arrows) for hours until the Roman lines had collapsed and Roman casualties would be piling up. So Surena’s strategy was build tons and tons of missiles(arrows) and have a dozen supply caravans of arrows marching with his Archer Cavalry. Surena’s forces were mostly mobile Heavy Armored Cavalry or Archer Cavalry, and he had fewer than 15,000 men.

The Roman Infantry was very useful when assaulting wooden forts with Ballista Crossbow “artillery” and building defenses. But Surena chose the battlefield, and there was no time to build defenses nor were there materials available in the arid desert region.

The Romans massed in the open and Parthian Forces were mobile and always moving and firing their composite long range bows and armor piercing heavy arrows at the Roman formations. When the Roman Infantry and Light Cavalry tried to charge the Parthians, they were wiped out by the Parthian “missiles”(the Romans were surrounded). The day long barrage of arrows wiped out thousands of Roman troops and left many more wounded. The Roman leaders panicked and fled while Crassus tried to negotiate, reportedly the Parthians poured molten gold down his throat and then cut off his head. The fleeing Romans became separated(the wounded were massacred) and were picked off by local Arabs and Parthian Cavalry. Fewer than 2 Legions survived the battle of the original 7 and returned to Roman territory.

It should be no surprise why the Iranians today concentrate their efforts on long range missile/rocket weapons.

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By Sepharad, July 17, 2008 at 4:40 pm Link to this comment
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response to nissar al naik (continued)

  Even in those times when Ib’n Rush’d and El Fadil and Maimonides and Salah-ah-din were able to live together in relative peace, Jews were never accepted as equals in Moslem countries, and conversion was definitely required. But it was a heckuvalot better than Jewish life in medieval Europe.

There were nearly one million Jews living in Moslem lands in subsequent generations—now known as Mizrahi Jews—however, and in general they were still second-class citizens but not completely out of tune with their Moslem hosts. But during the same period, despite anti-Semitic blips in 18th, 19th and 20th-century (well, the Nazis were a HUGE blip but I consider them as aberrant lunatics, more a product of latent anti-Semitism exaggerated grotesquely by the barbarous conditions of the Versailles Treaty), Jews were marginally better off in some, if not all, European and Asian countries.

Those of us unwilling to be piously slaughtered in pogroms either fought or simply ran, mostly to Palestine and but also to the Americas. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, some of us rebelled and returned to Eretz Israel as Zionists, others became the Marxists/Leninists/Bolsheviks leading the Russian revolution. Others remained sedately in West and East European countries and over the centuries were assimilated if not warmly embraced.

Obviously the Nazi experience taught us once and for all that Jews not in Israel were neither more nor less than homeless Jews (though so far America has not gone crazy), and many more of us have joined our brothers in Israel. When the Arab armies attacked after the UN partition, we fought back. The Mufti of Jerusalem urged Arabs so the Arab armies could liquidate the Jews. Jewish terrorists committed the atrocity of Deir Yassin, Arab terrorists massacred Jews, and in this conflict Arab-Israeli hatred began. 800,000 Palestinians were driven out of Israel, and 900,000 Jews were driven out of the Arab countries where they had lived for centuries. Israelis took in those 900,000; the Arab countries still have not take in the 800,000 Arab refugees or resettle them in the former homes of the refugee Mizrahi Jews, though the Arab League’s Iraqi representative described it at the time as a “population exchange.” Both sides have their narratives and justifications.

Religious fundamentalism is a major factor in the Israeli-Arab inability to work out a peace that will neither annihilate the Jews (less numerous on much less land than the Arabs) nor deprive Arabs who are now in the third generation and still unsettled of a second state, Palestine. Israel’s extremely orthodox Jews are among the most militant and implacable enemies of all Arabs, and it seems to be the fundamental Islamists among the Arabs who consider Jews no better than swines and apes, teach this poison to their children (cf, Farfel the Mouse type programming to toddlers), and deter the perpetual, despairing refugees from any action or education that would enable them to build lives based on something more than hatred.

Where to begin? Israelis and Palestinians do attempt to establish economic projects, out-reach communities, etc., but so many Palestinians who participate are executed as “collaborators” that other non-haters are scared off. The more suicide bombers and missiles that fall on Israel, the more soldiers who are kidnapped and murdered, the more distrustful Israelis are of any possible peace, the more influence religious extremists such as Binyamin Netanyahu have. And when death-worshipping killers like Hezbollah and to a slightly lesser extent Hamas take up the Palestinian cause as their own, how can anything but chaos and death win out? Salah-a-din would have wept for shame, and so would Maimonides. Where are the Moslem scholars such as Ib’n Rush’d who knew very well that “there is no tyranny like the tyranny of priests?”

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By PatrickHenry, July 17, 2008 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

Back from your marva training Lefty?  Learning how to be a zionist troll is hard work.

Lets hope when Israel begins its provocative BS, they get their ass kicked.  After Jan 20. no body will be there to help.  A nation of whiners that Israel is.

For you.

http://www.antiwar.com/scheuer/?articleid=13139

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By Robert, July 17, 2008 at 4:11 pm Link to this comment

By Lefty, July 17 at 9:30 am #
======================================

Lefty, “Ephraim Pesach” is his zionist name, he must be low on his “bi-polar/schizophrenic” drugs or the dosage that he is taking is way too low. He needs the “mule” size bolus/dosage for his sick mental state to perhaps have a chance at controlling his “IDF child killer syndrome” behavior.

ZIONISM IS PURE RACISM. ITS APARTHEID !!!

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By Sepharad, July 17, 2008 at 3:39 pm Link to this comment
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(response to Nissar al Naik—- continued)

Nissar, as you say, historically and in general, Jews have fared better under Islamic regimes than under Christians. The Christians simply segregated Jews into ghettos, shtetels, did not allow them to own land or buy a house, though they could grow crops—which is why so many Jews were peddlers, bankers, moneylenders, artisans, musicians—and should a plague or economic disaster or other mishap occur, the Christians simply massacred whatever Jewish neighborhoods or villages were at hand. Some Crusaders enroute to the Holy Land decided they could avoid that arduous journey and instead do their loot-rape-murder thing on the Jews they encountered as they traveled through Europe. Under the Spanish Inquisition, it was convert or die, so the Sephardic Jews either hitchhiked to the New World with Columbus and others, or fled to Moslem countries or to Eretz Israel/then Palestine.

When Granada fell in 1492 the Christians also finally dispossessed, drove out, enslaved or murdered many fleeing Moslems. (Dumping both Jews and Moslems seemed like a good idea at the time but it effectively destroyed Spain’s agricutural and commercial stability. Those hungry conquistadors flooding the New World were the sons of the Reconquista soldiers who could only be paid in now-barren land, and had nothing to teach their sons but how to ride and kill.)

Though life was better under Moslem rule, Jews were second-class citizens (“dhimmis”), paid extortionate-level taxes, were not allowed to ride horses but only mules or donkeys, and for many centuries were not allowed to practice Judaism openly under pain of death, but forced to convert to Islam publicly. Maimonides, now in Morocco with El Fadil,also was the leader of the underground Jewish community. One revered European rabbi wrote to the Morrocan Jews that by publicly accepting Islam, they could no longer be considered Jews. Maimonides shot back that revered rabbis not in Morocco were either ignorant or foolish, positing that under the Romans and the procession of other temporary rulers of ancient Israel even the greatest Jewish heroes hid their beliefs when they had to. Meanwhile he himself was comfortable if busy leading and counciling the depressed and fearful Jewish community and also serving as physician to El Fadil’s and Salah-ah-din’s households. When Salah-ah-din set out to take Jerusalem back from the Christians, he asked Maimonides to accompany him as physician and advisor.

The Christians had taken Jerusalem from the defending Saracens and Jews in a bloodbath. (A good readable and accurate historic novel on that siege is Evan Connell’s “Deus Lo Volt!”) One French knight complained in his memoirs that Jew and Saracen blood soaked his horse’s legs up to the knees as he rode through the conquered city.

Salah-ah-din’s reconquest was not like that. He allowed noncombatants and those defenders who surrendered to leave, even though King Richard had slaughtered a huge encampment of Salah-ah-din’s warriors and their women in a surprise attack.
When he took the city, there was only one synagogue left standing after the Christian victory, and that one previously filled with Jews who had been murdered. Salah-ah-din decreed the rebuilding of the former 12 synagogues and sent messengers north and west to gather the surviving Jews who had been dispersed back to Jerusalem.

King Richard asked Maimonides to return to England with him as royal physician, which offer Maimonides turned down flatly and resumed his duties, such as nagging Salah-a-din for continuing to sleep on the ground during long marches—nothing for a man of Salah-ah-din’s age.

When Salah-ah-din died, he’d made Maimonides chief of the Jews in Egypt, and Maimonides, to the end of his days, counciled Salah-ah-din’s sons in political questions (each of them ruled parts of the caliphate), as well as advice on their physical ailments, proper diets, etc.

        (continued)

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By cann4ing, July 17, 2008 at 3:21 pm Link to this comment

Yes, Ivan Hentschel, the lunatics are indeed running the asylum.  One of those lunatics regularly posts at TD under the name “Lefty.”

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By mrmb, July 17, 2008 at 3:07 pm Link to this comment
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http://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/profilesrumi.html

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By samosamo, July 17, 2008 at 2:56 pm Link to this comment

Right now I am watching Robert Scheer’s conversation with Scott Ritter from back in March which I have spoken of but did not leave a link but which I will. It appears several commentors may have looked it up and viewed it just as I am sure the several viewed it before I ever did, but here is the link and may it give anyone some insight as to the situation we are in and what is probably required to correct it: http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070320_scott_ritter_robert_scheer/

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By mrmb, July 17, 2008 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment
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http://www.timelineindex.com/content/search.php?s=+8000BC

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By Sepharad, July 17, 2008 at 2:16 pm Link to this comment
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Thank you, Nissar al Naik, for reminding us that not nearly enough Westerners know the history and contributions of Islam. In an earlier post, I cited a number of sources including the Koran, Haditha, and the medieval Arab historian Ib’n Khaldun as well as Western scholar Bernard Lewis who loved and explored Islamic history. (Should have also mentioned J. Marshall Thompson, the U. of Chicago scholar whose three hefty volumes of the history of Islam are definitive in terms of detail but slightly clinical/academic compared to Lewis’ obvious love for his subject.) Fouad Ajami’s books “The Foreigner’s Gift” and “The Dream Palace of the Arabs” reflect some of the same critical analysis of Arab society today as the Arab scholars who prepared several UN-funded studies re Arab society with its strengths, weaknesses and possibilities.

As you know, one of the towering figures of the Golden Age of Al Andalus, when Arab scholars rescued philosophical and other progressive thought while Europe was lost in its Dark Ages, was the scholar Ib’n Rush’d, best known for his translation of and commentary on Aristotle—he saw no problem reconciling reason with the existence of God. Ib’n Rush’d's grandfather was the first imam of the Great Mosque of Cordoba, and also active in establishing some of the great libraries of Cordoba.

Unfortunately, when the fanatical Almoravids took over Al Andalus, they burned Cordoba’s libraries and drove all the scholars, Moslem and Jew alike, out of Al Andalus. It is recorded that on leaving his beloved Cordoba, Ib’n Rush’d looked over his shoulder, saw the smoke and said, disgusted, “There is no tyranny like the tyranny of priests!”

Of course he was right. Extreme interpretations of the Koran, the Torah and the Christian Bible have led to incomprehensible sorrow, war, and death in this world.

Among the fugitives from the intolerant Almoravids were the family of the young scholar Moses Maimonides. They first went to Jerusalem, to stay with the family of Maimonides’ uncle, but young Moses was eager to go to Morocco, where Ib’n Rush’d and other Islamic scholars had fled. Ib’n Rush’d had been acquainted with the Maimonides family in Cordoba, and, seeking a protector for them—Jews were not universally welcome in Morocco—introduced Moses to El Fadil, the chief steward of Salah-ah-din. Moses Maimonides as both a philosopher (though unlike Ib’n Rush’d he never did quite fine a way to reconcile reason with the existence of a God) and skilled physician, was welcomed into Salah-ah-din’s household, beginning a friendship that transcended religious differences.

        (continued)

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By mrmb, July 17, 2008 at 1:15 pm Link to this comment
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_the_Persian

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By MikeB, July 17, 2008 at 9:56 am Link to this comment
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Jackpine Savage has a point.  Only an insurrection within our own military, a sort of beneficent Seven Days In May scenario can save us from our own government’s lunacy. 

The truth about the feasibility of keeping Hormuz open and that of invading Iran probably lies somewhere in between what Duncanidaho and Tippys Dad said.  Still, we can count on horrific world economic shock.

And also a sharp turn south in the political situation in Iraq—one that will be exacerbated by orders of magnitude if Iranian “volunteers” come swarming across the Iraqi border. 

That would probably trigger a massive Shiite uprising (even if Sadr’s followers sit this one out), and the erstwhile Sunni insurgents will probably pitch in just to preserve bargaining chips in post-occupation Iraqi political negotiations.

In that scenario, American logistical lines in Kuwait and Iraq could probably be cut.  How long could American troops hold out with food and fuel cut off?  A week or two, maybe? 

We may be closer than we think to defeat in the Middle East, greater and more humiliating than that in the Philipines in 1942.

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By cann4ing, July 17, 2008 at 9:03 am Link to this comment

Given his past posts touting the benefits of torture, I was not at all surprised to find a Blackspeare post in response to this article suggesting, just as his neocon friends did prior to invading Iraq, that invading Iran would be a cakewalk.  What I didn’t expect was the immoral insanity reflected by M Alem’s, “The USA has the power to wipe Iran from the map if it decides to do so.”

What are you advocating M Alem?  Are you suggesting that our government launch a massive nuclear strike against a nation which, per our own NIE, has no nuclear arms with which to strike back?  Are you suggesting that our nation should annihilate millions of innocent civilians?  The U.S. also has the power to wipe out all life on the planet.  Should Bush threaten to annihilate us all unless we cave in to his demand for off-shore oil?

The suggestion by some that the Iranian missile exercise was a “provocation” ignore the military exercises by the U.S. and Israel.  Others suggest, without substantiation that the exercise was merely the product of faked photographic imagery.  The exercise, whether feigned or real, was a defensive gesture designed to deter an unprovoked attack on Iran, and, as such, comports with international law, as does the enrichment of uranium to the extend needed for use in civilian nuclear power plants.

Lost in all this is the fact that both the IAEA and our own NIE have established that Iran has not sought a nuclear weapons capability, has not threatened the U.S. or launched an attack against Israel.  And, also lost, is the connections between Bush/Cheney/Rice and the oil cartel and the fact that they covet Iranian oil just as they coveted Iraqi oil.

Ritter’s thoughtful post on this subject, like his pre-Iraq discourse, is designed to ward off the disaster which would flow from the neoconservative plans for regime change.  Unfortunately, Capt. Ritter is appealing to those whose insanity is exceeded only by their greed and perfidy.

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By George A., July 17, 2008 at 8:17 am Link to this comment
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Yes, all China has to do is stop shipping their goods into USi. Panick-poverty. It makes you sick when America threatens other countries with sanctions. Iran has every right to do what it wants in it’s own country and even if it wants to help/protect countries from US hardships.
Just imagine paying $20 for made in Israel for a flat screw driver or $100 for a shirt.

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By jackpine savage, July 17, 2008 at 7:29 am Link to this comment

Mr. Mostofi,

Again, thank you for the continuing history lesson.  I have always found believable the theory that the “great flood” recorded in all myth/history of the region was when the closed Bosporus opened up and turned a great lake into the Black Sea.  Said theory posits that the first place the refugees settled again was on the Iranian plateau…from there moving south to what we’ve come to think of as the birth place of civilization.  (And that the knowledge which birthed civilization was gained on the Black “Lake” coast.)

So of course we have no direct record of what kind of civilization existed on the banks of the then fresh water Black Sea coast.  But it certainly seems to mesh with the history that you suggest.

Interesting, we have Salman burning the ancient libraries of Iran.  And we have the bishop of Alexandria ordering the burning of that city’s great library.  It certainly seems as though the Semitic traditions have something against knowledge and wisdom.

I know that Cyrena knows what i’m getting at…

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By Sepharad, July 16, 2008 at 11:43 pm Link to this comment
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Dear Ali Mostofi, your July 15 10:10 post explains the reality inside Iran much better than my post earlier this afternoon, and I hope everyone including Scott Ritter, whose credibility is slightly diminished by his inability to grasp what the Iranian people are facing in the Seyyeds, will focus on your comment as well as how best the outside world can help the true Iranians reclaim their country for themselves. I based my post on the experience of an old Iranian friend—who writes Persian poetry, raises Peruvian horses (as do we), and creates beautiful pottery—and what his friends here have also explained to me. His eldest son is a lawyer in DC, married to a Jewish American journalist. But your voice, from inside Iran, is something that Americans badly need to hear and heed. Perhaps you could do op-eds for the NYTimes, the Washington Post, the LA Times, the Atlanta Constitution, the San Francisco Chronicle, the London Times, the Jerusalem Post, Ha’aretz, the Jewish Forward in New York, Paris’ Le Monde, the Cairo Times, and every influential media outlet that reaches more normal people who read more carefully and think things through more patiently than some of the Cyrena-types who seem to live on threads such as this to rant on, and nowhere else in reality.

Trust me: the Jews have never forgotten what Cyrus did for them, and Israel would much rather be engaged in joint economic and technological projects with the Iranian people than trying to fend off Hezbollah. It is hard for Israelis to NOT be paranoid vis a vis Ahmadinejad and the mullahs, but we do NOT feel that they represent the real Iran. I have family in Israel as well as in the US—in 1828 my great-great-grandfather ordered his sons to split up their children, some to stay in Israel and some to go to America, to make sure that one branch of the family survived. (There are more of us left in America. I guess he was right.)

Re Jerusalem’s “holiness” to the Moslems, it’s based on a dream Mohammed had about an angel taking him to a faraway unspecified temple, where on his horse Barak he ascended to heaven and met the prophet Elijah. Mohammed never set foot in Jerusalem, and Moslems pray facing Mecca, not Jerusalem, so Israel’s city must not be as holy to Islam as is claimed. Jerusalem is never once mentioned in the Koran at all, whereas Mecca and Medina are mentioned hundreds, thousands of times.

Some day my husband and I hope to be able to visit Iran with our friends, and see some of those places restored that he says are now defaced by graffiti and hacked at by the fundamental Islamists. Also someday I hope you will come to Jerusalem—and San Francisco.

Shalom, Sepharad

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By Nissar Ahmed A. Naik, July 16, 2008 at 11:24 pm Link to this comment
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The vast majority of westerners are totally unaware of the positive aspects of Islam and its huge contribution to human civilization. Eminent western historians have paid glowing tributes to the Muslim rule in Spain which put Jews and Christians in position of authority. The contribution of Muslims to arts, science, architecture etc. was the foundation for European renaissance. Europe knows the decimal system of numbers because Arabs taught it to them. The modern sceintific methods based on controlled experiments was taught to the Europeans by the Muslim Arabs. The great Philosophical literature of Aristotle, Socrates and Plato was lost in original Greek and humanity knows about it only because Arabic Translations were available!
Muslims have never exhibited any Anti-Semitism prior to the creation of Israel. Significant Jewish and Christian Populations coexisted peacefully in most of the Arab and Muslim countries for centuries. Nothing, even remotely comparable to the persecution of Jews in Europe, ever took place in a Muslim country.
An example of the tolerance of Islam: Islam forbids the conversion to Islam of a Jewish or Christian woman against her will, if she gets married to a Muslim. Islam orders that she be allowed to practice her faith even after marriage

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By Richard Albert, July 16, 2008 at 10:59 pm Link to this comment
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You are witnessing the beginning of the end.  The world wants and needs oil.  Any military action against Iran by the U.S. will result in the Asian countries moving to take control of all Middle Eastern oil. 

Better stock up on candles and buy a horse because this spend-spend U.S. government is bankrupting the country.

THE U.S. CAN’T AFFORD A WAR.  Those Asian countries will stop buying our sub-prime treasury debt even then one yen will buy a $1,000 treasury note.

The American Public deserves what’s happening, because the public continues to re-elect these brought and paid for congressional clowns.  Send Washington a massage and throw everyone of them out of office this fall.

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By Tony Wicher, July 16, 2008 at 10:38 pm Link to this comment

Re madison ford, July 14 at 6:05 am #

madison,

I’m glad you are a Democrat now, but tell me, please, why you believe that “Iran must not be allowed to have a bomb, period”. Why Iran? Pakistan already has the bomb, and they are much more unstable than Iran. Osama bin Laden and Ayman Zawahiri live in Pakistan, not Iran. Islamic militants could take over the government there.

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By Sepharad, July 16, 2008 at 7:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

samosamo—
You sound interested in Middle Eastern history. Some good sources: David Fromkin’s “The Peace to End All Peace” ... Joan Peter’s “From Time Immemorial” ... Ib’n Khaldun’s (arguably the greatest Arab historian of all time, who wrote in the medieval era) “The Muquadimmah”, a large introductory volume of his 5-volume history ... not just the Koran but the 8-volume Hadditha, where people consolidated and interpreted Mohammed’s sayings a couple hundred years after his death, much as the New Testament was written ... Edward Said’s “Orientalism” ... just about everything by Bernard Lewis, who spent his entire life in the Middle East writing Islamic history ... and the biogs in Lewis’ work will give a lot of primary sources and documents. The Ottoman Archives and the British archives for the period before WWI through WWII have been declassified since the 1980s and can lay to rest a lot of the gibberish on the thread re the rebirth of Israel. For information on the Jewish presence in Palestine (so named by the Romans, adding insult to their massacres of the Jews, after the Israelites’ old enemies the Phillistines in what is now Gaza), histories of Cyrus of Persia who brought many Jews dispersed in what are now Arab countries back to Jerusalem, Salah-ah-din, the Crusades, Maimonides etc. all touch on the Jewish presence in the Post-Roman and medieval years, when the bulk of learned religious Jews were in what was left of Jerusalem, some in Jaffa and Hebron, while the remaining Jews had flocks of sheep, goats, orchards and generally lived as the Arabs did. Jerusalem was always a destination for the pious in the Diaspora, but it wasn’t till early in the 19th century that young, non-religious Jews fled to their ancestral homeland avoiding (like my great-grandfather for instance) pogroms in East and West European countries. They were not only not religious, but many were outcasts because during the pogroms they had been cursed by their fathers for breaking the religious laws of non-violence and had fought back against the Romanians, the Cossacks, the feudal lords etc. Most of them were peasants who knew farming and livestock husbandry, and artisans and teachers. The Zionist movement began in the middle and late 19th century. English novelist George Elliot based her novel “Daniel DeRonda” on the stories of one of her friends, a rabbi who came from Jerusalem to England in 1874 to bring Jews back to Israel. Then came Theodor Herzl and the official Zionist movement, when more and more young Jews came back home where, if they would work hard, they belonged. There were Arabs in Palestine as well as throughout the Arab lands, and Jews (the Mizrahi) who lived among Arabs as second-class citizens—“dhimmihood”—forced to practice religion in private and publically accept Islam, pay extra taxes, etc. Sometimes the Jews and Arabs in Palestine got along, sometimes they didn’t. The Jewish National Land Fund bought land from absentee Palestinian owners, from the Ottomans. The dislocation of Arab Palestinians did not happen until somewhat before WWII. The mufti of Jerusalem spent WWII with the Gestapo in Germany after raising Arabs to fight with the Germans in North Africa. The ews in Palestine fought under the British. But for all the details you need to read some of the books cited above. The Jews were not saints, and neither were the Arabs, but in general the Jews did try to be fair and get along. We are many things, but stupid is not one of them, and comparing numbers of Arabs to numbers of Jews, what possible reason would have made an intelligent Jew in that place at that time attack the Arabs? (Most of the Zionists, by the way, were not religious—which seriously concerned their pious elders.) Just a few places to get started if you are really interested. I’ve been studying the Middle East intensively for the last 10 years, well as the Islamic history in Al Andalus, and still feel like a beginner.

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By William the Concurer, July 16, 2008 at 4:28 pm Link to this comment
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Blackspeare and M Alem
Yes we all know that Nazi Germany has the power to erase Russia from the face of the Earth if it needs to. Look at their performance 20 years earlier, our Prussian and Austrian forces rolled right over them. Their pathetic “asiatic” military is no match for us, once our Finnish allies attack Moscow from the north and we invade from the south their people will overthrow their “insane” Bolshevik government. Within days we will be sipping vodka in Moscow.

No doubt they also photo-shopped their Missile launch videos also.(Note – the so called “photo-shopped” photo originally had 3 rockets firing and at least one being elevated but not firing, the photo-shopping was more than likely for aesthetic proportional purposes by some unknown person, the existence of the original puts into question some kind of Iranian plot)

Launching a Nuclear attack on Iran is insane. How would Russia interpret the steady approach of high velocity atmospheric targets to its borders? Are some of you willing to risk an accidental Nuclear War just to prevent a country from producing electricity?

Iran is more than capable of retaliating within its own backyard. It can’t directly attack the US but it can do serious damage to the US Military Infrastructure in the region. Ritter points out an important fact. Iran controls many small islands and has a wide coastline. It has over 70 Million people, just like Imperial Japan had during its height. Those small islands could easily turn into modern versions of the battle of Iwo Jima, Iranian troops 20 years ago were also well known for their fanatic desire for victory. When they lacked the weapons needed to win, they simple charged at Iraqi defenses with bayonets fixed. Is the US willing today to suffer 28,000 casualties in one battle today? A death toll of 1,000 in 1 week would be a public relations disaster.

And suicidal attacks today are not necessary. When you have an arsenal of Chinese(not Russian as many mistakenly believe) designed anti-ship missiles you can attack an enemy ship without losing your own men. When you have long range cruise missiles you can bombard an enemy from the safety of a hidden bunker. A supply of cheap unguided truck launched rockets can overcome any defense, as Hezbollah proved.

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By samosamo, July 16, 2008 at 4:28 pm Link to this comment

By cyrena, July 16 at 2:29 pm #

Thanks for the info, anything I learn about the middle east helps, heck, any country that has come under the sway of american hegemony. That is why Mike Davis’ book ‘Late Victorian Holocausts’(more british imperialism) especially Chalmers Johnson’s books, even books on climate change are valuable to me. Another book project for me is to read Scott Ridder’s books on Iraq and Iran, I would think that you have seen the interview or talk fest with Scott and Robert Scheer here on this site and when I did I quickly understood and believed what Scott Ridder says, I find him to be believable and knowledgable enough to probably beat any neocon or supporter of w & dick’s debacle in any debate about it but that won’t happen especially on the msm where it really should be held. And I firmly believe from that interview that unless you really know the history and the culture of all the arab groups sunni, shia, kurds and know how to juggle them as saddam did then you would have no buisness in trying to invade the country and rule them. One must know the differences to begin to put together a country they can live in.
And I believe Scott’s take as an ex-weapons inspector the difficulties the Iranians have in trying to enrich uranium which still keeps them and any other country that does not have neclear weapons, still 10 year from having them.
What is really going on is a ‘full spectrum’ dominance play for the region to further dominate oil dependent countries needing the oil from the middle east and southern asia but controlling the oil ourselves. This is really getting down the crux of what it’s all about and it involves robbery, market manipulations, regime changes, extraordinary renditions, etc. etc. etc. But another mistake I think we would make is not considering japan, china, india and russia’s interest in the region which really could lead to a catastrophic conflict if we pushed too hard to be the king of the hill.

An interesting article and I think one we here in the USA will not see much of unless it would be played around this comment:
““Iranians are very eager to solve the problems,” one insider told me. “They are licking their lips in anticipation of a compromise.”“
That reads to much like Iranians are grovelling into submission which I don’t think is it at all.
But still, this is another little blip of light through the blinds of america or should I say izrael, w & dick’s team not getting their way. Still 6 months left before a turnover in government comes true, if it comes true.

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By Sepharad, July 16, 2008 at 4:18 pm Link to this comment
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Tippy’s Dad, Jackpine Savage, and Mr. Naiek,

I appreciate your efforts, but don’t try telling any of the anti-Jewish morons on this thread that the Jews were in Israel first, that the Romans ethnic-cleansed and drove out as many of us as possible but NOT ALL, etc etc. because their minds are made up based on foot-and-mouth-ideologue disease and not on fact. Some of them still think the Brits like the Jews. In fact, the Brits armed the Arabs and disarmed the Jews before the Empire made an unworkable hash of what was once Palestine (giving 80% of Palestine to the Hashemite king Abdullah, who named it Jordan) then left both Jewish and Moslem Palestinians trying to survive on the measly sliver of land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River.

Iranians are just one group of non-Arab Moslems. Other non-Arab Moslems are quiet allies of Israel—the Turks, the Kurds, some of the ‘zhakestans, etc.

Re Ritter’s article, he may or may not be right; no one, including myself, on this thread can be sure. But BECAUSE I love Israel and the U.S., I don’t believe we or Israel should even think about attacking Iran at this moment in history. I hold no brief for fundamentalists such as Ahmadinejad and other death-loving fascists like Hezbollah—may all of them depart this earth as quickly as possible (after they get a taste of the terror and torture they have inflicted on others).

The fact is, many many Iranian citizens are unhappy with the mullahs, unhappy with their space-case President. Many Iranians are cultured, rational, educated people. They are horrified at what their government does in their name (as some of us are at what Bush has wrought). They don’t think human rights workers and Iranian as well as other intellectuals should be arrested and tortured and murdered, or that Iranians revisiting the country from the West should be wrongfully incarcerated, or, in the case of the Canadian woman, imprisoned, tortured and murdered.

There is a large Iranian community in Northern California, where I live, and one family has become our close friends. We ride horses together, read and discuss books, celebrate their lunar equinox with them sitting up all night around a bonfire reciting Persian poetry, and we argue politics, sometimes local, sometimes re Israel. Our friends and most of their friends also from Iran whom we’ve met are atheists and intellectuals who value their Persian and Zoroastrian culture. Several months ago, Farokh (who left Iran as a young man when the ‘79 revolution went very wrong and resulted in the stoneage mullahs now in control) took his youngest son with him to visit family in Tehran and to enroll his son in the university there. On returning, with his son, he told us he would never let any of his children back in Iran for any reason because his beloved country is, as he put it, “now being run by lunatics. They even encourage hooligans to deface and destroy pre-Islamic artifacts and architecture as if it never existed.” The good people are terrified of their own government. The very WORST thing either Israel or the U.S. could do would be to attack Iran. This would only reinforce the lies the mullahs constantly preach about us. Also, the great majority of the Iranian people are NOT our enemies. My friend said there’s much goodwill toward the U.S. because despite our unforgivable bungling in Iraq many, possibly most, Iranians still believe Americans best embody the ideals and possibilities for a decent society, which lends important support and encouragement to those elements in Iranian society who remain sane and decent.

Obama says the idea of a nuclear Iran is absolutely, totally unacceptable. I would say that the idea of nuclear weaponry in the hands of Iran’s current theocrat-rulers is totally unacceptable. Instead, we need to actively and unremittingly help the Iranians reach the point where they can dump their stoneage-minded ruling elite playing with lethal, modern high-tech fire.

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By cyrena, July 16, 2008 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment

By samosamo, July 16 at 1:00 pm

Samo,

Not to worry. This wasn’t a waste of valuable time. At least some of us could appreciate it, and that’s all that matters. And actually, it DOES have everything to do with Iran showing it’s hand. I just read a story on the BBC site (of course this isn’t anywhere in our own media) that the morons in DC have just made a dramatic switch, and are actually setting up direct talks with Iran.
Iran and US eye diplomatic opening
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7509278.stm

Now, this is really something. After dogging then, and harassing them for years, they’ve figured out that they need to do some talking.

As for what you may or may not know about the history and affairs of the Middle East, at least you’re willing to find out. I don’t think most Americans know anything at all about it, (for all the reasons we’ve already been though) unless we decide to find out. That’s what I decided to do nearly a decade ago, when I realized that after over 20 years working as a corporate slave, I’d been kept essentially stupid, because I wasn’t getting any information except from corporate plantation masters. Of course I knew my own job very, very well, because it was to THEIR advantage for me to know it. But I’ve long since understood that it’s been the plan to keep us stupid of anything that we REALLY need to know. 

I guess the sort of ‘light bulb’ moment for me was when I kept hearing about this ‘globalization’ and didn’t have any idea what the whole concept meant. So, I decided to return to school, since I was gonna be either unemployed, or working for next to nothing anyway. I figure it gave me a head start on learning how to survive on nothing. Good training for these really hard times, now that bread is $10.00 a loaf.

As for who gave that strip of sand to Israel, it was the UN. A gift stolen from some other folks as a settlement for what Hitler had done to them. Now, if I could get the robber barons to do a similar settlement for me, everything would be peachy. And, I don’t even need that big of a strip of sand. Just an acre would serve my purposes. Since the 40 acres and the mule never happened, I’ll happily settle for an acre and a mobile home, as long as there’s a patch of dirt close enough to grow some food.

Anyway, it wasn’t god who did it, and that’s why I can’t listen to any of that religious stuff. It’s despicable for people to use some unexplainable or unsubstantiated claims of a supernatural entity to commit crimes of greed against others, which is what makes religion the biggest scam there is.

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By Sup, July 16, 2008 at 2:08 pm Link to this comment
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By bg1, July 14 at 7:45 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

The immediate benefit to Iran of all of its saber rattling is that it rattles the oil markets, thereby jacking up the price of oil and thereby bringing in more money.  The Iranians are not stupid; they realize full well what would happen to them if they pulled something serious against the US or its allies.
*********

Bg1,  The Iranians are indeed ‘not stupid’.  Just as the fable of 911 makes no sense.  It would be insane to attack the U.S. and would bear nothing resembling fruit of any kind.  Cui Bono!  Tesla was thrown in the slammer for trying to provide wireless energy and much more.  So the PTB will do whatever they think they have to in holding on to their caveman pseudo-technologies.

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By samosamo, July 16, 2008 at 2:00 pm Link to this comment

By cyrena, July 16 at 8:06 am #

Yeah, kind of important as I don’t believe anyone when they try to convince me that ‘god gave this land to so and so and it is theirs’. I don’t have a great knowledge of the near and middle east histories of civilizations and religions but when I have someone trying to state that izrael belongs to the jews because god gave it to them, does not compute. Izrael may have control of that area and are abusing the hell out of others that have been around as long as anyother group for some religious ideology is just the same as our boy w claimming a divine hand in his becoming president which was an illegel appointment and the 2004 fraudlent ridden election which came down to the high crimes perpetrated by persons known and unknown to give w the presidency then for the biggest heist by a band of robbers and thieves with murder included.
And what gets me, is to see someone, ed mcateer of the christian coalition, in the documentary ‘The World According to Bush’ stating that ‘god gave every last grain of sand that is izrael to the jews’, it just becomes too much to just let that sit around and be accepted dogma or whatever just like any lie told enough will be believed. Which includes just letting the 9/11 event go to the back pages as a nonsensical issue.
Now I apologize for wasting a lot of useful time trying to get someone or two to explain how the jews may have come about possession of izrael which for me in modern times was with the help of the british I believe sometime just after WWII which created the state of izrael. But as one responder said his people were in the area for 15000yrs. So it could go on for ever but I am not. I just know that religion with the mix of politics with the number of people on this planet will never be conducive for a peaceful world.
And yeah, this is totally off the subject of Iran Shows Its Card

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, July 16, 2008 at 11:30 am Link to this comment

Which country in the Middle-East has undeclared stockpiles of nuclear weapons?

Which country in the Middle-East has undeclared stockpiles of biological & chemical weapons?

Which country in the Middle-East has NO outside inspections?

Its not Iraq. Its not Iran. You guessed it…its ISRAEL!

Here is a BBC documentary to watch on Israel’s secret weapon programs that goes back to John F. Kennedy’s days. This documentary was aired on LINK TV. We will NEVER have the chance to watch it on our AIPAC controlled News Media channels.

Click to watch this great documentary & see the TRUTH for your yourself.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-234685330662058240&q=israel+secret+weapon&total=107&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

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By Anarcissie, July 16, 2008 at 11:28 am Link to this comment

It seems to me that we already knew, and certainly the leaders of the US-Great Britian-Israel axis already knew, that Iran had a lot of rockets, just as everyone knew before the exercise of a few months ago that Israel had a lot of planes and could fly them as far as Iran and drop bombs.  Iran was playing the bottom half of a you-show-me-yours and I’ll-show-you-mine inning, and what they were showing wasn’t cards; they were just making the expected play after the Israeli exercise.

The more interesting puzzle (for me) is the inspiration, timing, and general meaning of the first part of the play—the Israeli exercise over the Mediterranean.

Some people say the Israelis were trying to force the hands of the American leadership.  I doubt this; I believe they are already thoroughly in one another’s pockets, and the U.S. military knew all about the exercise long before it happened.  They may have even inspired it.

My guess is that it was a sort of trial balloon, designed to test the response of, not the Iranians, but the American public and especially the American financial sector.  That response was complex and, I imagine, not particularly reassuring to the leadership, although outright panic did not ensue.  An American financial collapse or deep depression will seriously impact the ability of its leaders to carry out extensive wars and to shore up its client states, and may impact their political power; the situation isn’t getting any better and may get much worse; but war now may accelerate the decline.  It’s a tricky problem for them.

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By Michael Shaw, July 16, 2008 at 9:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I don’t think they will do it because it isn’t necessary. For example, before we invaded Iraq, the tar sands of Alberta, Canada were not even considered a part of the world oil reserves and today it is being called the largest oil reserve in the world. The reason? Because tar oil costs between 25-30 dollars a barrel to refine into real oil. Before the invasion of Iraq, oil sold for 32 dollars a barrel, thus the tar oil in Alberta was not economically feasible because the oil corporations couldn’t profit from it. Now that oil is 140 dollars per barrel, suddenly the tar sands are a gold mine. As long as the threats to war on Iran remain consistent, thanks to the speculators oil prices will remain high and higher, making the tar sands of Alberta the richest treasure chest on the planet. Add that to control of the straw in the ground oil of Iraq and suddenly it becomes more logical to only threaten an attack rather than actually carry one out. This will insure their new “goldmine” produces greater profits for many years to come.

As Ritter states, if we do invade Iran, oil will no longer be affordable. What good will that do for corporate oil profits? But the way things are now oil corporations can remain forever happy, at least until they completely destroy the environment. Point in mind, the shale option in the Colorado Rockies.

While Europeans are seizing this high oil cost moment to rebuild their infrastructures on clean, renewable energy, we are guaranteeing ourselves indefinite enslavement to oil. Of course this will eventually leave us high and dry(hasn’t it already) but it will definitely keep the corporate oil party alive for several more decades.

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By cyrena, July 16, 2008 at 9:06 am Link to this comment

•  “You people are joking, right?  You’re not really arguing about who was in the “holy” land first, are you? (besides which, what does that have to do with Iran, which is not part of the Middle East anyhow, but rather Persia…its own long, distinct culture)”

Jackpine, you know I always appreciate your comments. This particular part of this one hit’s on something really important though.

The reality is that most Americans don’t know the difference at all, and that’s not entirely their fault, because of what education has NOT provided, and the false re-structure of history that the media has.

This has been apparent in so many of the comments from people who have little knowledge of the geography of the area. Even most maps and atlases though, are politically motivated. Even in Middle Eastern studies, Iran is actually included as a Middle Eastern nation, while Afghanistan and Pakistan are put in the South Asian box. That Iran is PERSIAN, and not ARABIAN, seems to confuse many, who equate “Arab” with Islam/Muslims, failing to understand that there are many other ethnicities of Muslims besides Arabs. It can be confusing even when there isn’t a political agenda by a long known hegemonic power monger like the US.

Throw in the religious ideology, and well…it means they didn’t follow your advice:

•  “…No Moses, no holy land, no Christ, no Muhammad…no problem…”

Indeed, this WOULD simplify things. wink

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By Ali Mostofi, July 16, 2008 at 8:59 am Link to this comment

In response to jackpine savage, July 15 at 7:24 pm #

comment below:

Ali Mostofi,

Thank you for the link, sir.  It was interesting reading.  I wish that i could grant the Iranian people the ability to clean their own house in their own time, but, alas, i cannot.  That most of my compatriots cannot find Iran on a map or think that Iran is Arab will not stop them from following their ignorance to its own, illogical conclusion.

May your people have peace and self-determination, to be our friend as equals or to go your own way as you see fit.  Perhaps someday my country will concentrate on cleaning its own house before rearranging yours.

...............

Thank you for your sympathy.  We Iranians have had to do a lot of soul searching in the past 30 years, to find out why we are in such a mess.

The true Iranian mythology and philosophy was burnt by a person called Salman Parsi.  He carried out the first Islamic Inquisition of Iran after he determined that the second wife of Abraham gave him his first son.  We all know the story well.  But most people do not know that Salman did not like his dad, who was the Sassanian high priest of Iran.  Salman wanted a code that was easy to follow, and so created the Koran, and wanted to stop the spread of Christianity.  Please note that this info is not available in Islamic countries, and I would be killed on the spot for uttering it.  Fact is that he burnt all the libraries of Iran, and in so doing put human civilization for a long time.  But we Astrologers managed to keep a lot of it.  Many Zoroastrians fled to India and are called Parsis.  The words of the Zend-Avesta we memorised for 70 generations until the present day.

So Iranians whose roots are similar to Russians and Indians, and Europeans, had to look deeper, and have found that this old philosophy enshrined in the Zend-Avesta has answers to the world.  We know that it is 15000 years old, because until recently Geologist discovered the age of the last two ice ages.  We know that in one of the chapters of Zend Avesta, it speaks of the coming of an ice age, and that the tribes have to migrate south.  And we know that the tribes of Iran did move south.  First humanoid cultures are found in Iran from Kashafrud which are of the Orduwan period.  This is all very archeological, but I have to tell you all this, or else you think that I am just beating a nationalist drum.

So yes, watch out world, the history is different.

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By HelenWheels, July 16, 2008 at 8:36 am Link to this comment

Most things the shrub & its madministration has done in the past 7 years is “insane” but that doesn’t stop them.

You should all be asking why the shrub suddenly “made nice” with North Korea & declared it’s no longer a member of the axis of evil. Think he might want our military there for another purpose? Just sayin’. Timing is everything.

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By Mossada, July 16, 2008 at 6:49 am Link to this comment
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By Lefty, July 15 at 12:06 pm #

What is this? The Catskills?

Ben Gurion and the Stern Gang crew drew first blood.  Israel has ever since been drawing blood and selling it as defence against dirty stinking arabs with their thick accent.

The loss of any human life is tragic but If tens of thousands of Palestinians, held as bargaining chips, systematically totured, made to “live like dogs” decide to employ the poor man´s weapon, namely suicide bombing against Israel´s high tech MacDonald Douglas, Apache weaponery, who is really the good guy and who is the bad guy?

If right wing Israelis equivocate for their fascist jackboot kicking the Palestinians in the teeth for the past 60 years is acceptable to you then you must be one proud fascist.

What is particualry egregious, and unique, about the Israel Palestine conflict is how It has been sold to the world,  as to how Pure and Holy the Innocent Israelis are. What a load of self righteous sanctimonious bunk. 

I marvel to the way Israeli propaganda machinery works. 
Cleary aimed at western pseudo liberal sentiments when an Israeli spokesman, or woman, bleeds tears of remorse for the “accidental” death of Palestinian children from a 2000 lb Israeli heavy ordnance. 

Worthy of a Brazillian soap opera.

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By Nissar Ahmed A. Naik, July 15, 2008 at 11:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Madison,
As Madison says Judaism came first, before Christianity and Islam. Christians and Muslims were following the prevalent religion in their native lands all over the world before embracing these newer religions, they did not suddenly fall from the heavens! It is therefore a logical inference that many of the Jews of Palestine afterwards got converted to Christianity and Islam. So to go by Madison’s logic all of them lost the claim to their land the moment they accepted a new religion! To follow this theory would mean even Jesus Christ lost the claim to his motherland the moment he proclaimed a new religion!

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By samosamo, July 15, 2008 at 9:59 pm Link to this comment

By madison ford, July 15 at 8:24 pm #

Re: response from:
By samosamo, July 15 at 4:54 pm #


By Ali Mostofi, July 15 at 3:25 pm

Hot DAMN! Ali, YOU WIN THE LOLLIPOP! You finally comprehended and I am thinking without knowing it, What I was trying to drag out of madison ford and you then jumped in feet first without checking what was the intent of my comment. Unfortunately I could only take it as your talking down to me like I was pullin a bush trick on you.
Some where when I have the time, I will research this for my own gratification and knowledge.

Now as for your non part and incapability to understand what I was asking for… well may you at some time in your young life learn something that will help you help others. Personally I perceive you as talking down to me when I was demanding that you tell me who was on the land in the middle east before islam appeared as a religion, before judaism appeared or its precursor, and you just did not get the idea.PERIOD. I have better things to discuss with other commentors on this and other sites than try to get intellectually conversed with you. So my apologies for trying to get you to tell me something I was asking for. At least Ali claims his people were there about 15000yrs ago which puts it probably before any jewish religion was intact. And the whole place was up for grabs and also I would be willing to bet the ground that in now Jerusalem was a couple of other names and ‘possessed’ by a couple of other tribes. So thanks for nothing.

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By madison ford, July 15, 2008 at 9:24 pm Link to this comment

samosamo, no one is interested in your opinions. bring facts, statistics, figures, anecdotes, something. And chill with the run-on sentences. Separate thoughts need to separated by some sort of punctuation.

felicity’s response is a good example

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By jackpine savage, July 15, 2008 at 8:24 pm Link to this comment

Ali Mostofi,

Thank you for the link, sir.  It was interesting reading.  I wish that i could grant the Iranian people the ability to clean their own house in their own time, but, alas, i cannot.  That most of my compatriots cannot find Iran on a map or think that Iran is Arab will not stop them from following their ignorance to its own, illogical conclusion.

May your people have peace and self-determination, to be our friend as equals or to go your own way as you see fit.  Perhaps someday my country will concentrate on cleaning its own house before rearranging yours.

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By jackpine savage, July 15, 2008 at 8:04 pm Link to this comment

You people are joking, right?  You’re not really arguing about who was in the “holy” land first, are you? (besides which, what does that have to do with Iran, which is not part of the Middle East anyhow, but rather Persia…its own long, distinct culture)

Of course the Jews were in Jerusalem before the Muslims, but they left.  The Israeli Jews of today aren’t native, they’re returned European Jews.  You can’t up and leave a piece of land for 1000 years and then come back and say “we were here first”.  If the argument is about who kicked the Jews out, then they should be upset with the Babylonians, not the Palestinians or the Muslims.

But all of this only points to the fact that the whole Abrahamic tradition is the problem, fighting like spoiled siblings after all these years.  “He’s my God!” “No, He’s my God…he likes us better.”  Whatever.  Stupid Egyptian should have let baby Moses become fish food and saved us all a lot of trouble.

No Moses, no holy land, no Christ, no Muhammad…no problem.

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By yours truly, July 15, 2008 at 7:30 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The U.S. Is Setting Up Israel To Be The Fall Guy

“Why?”

“If the U.S. attacks Iran and gets defeated then the president would be hard-pressed to answer the question why he’d lied us into his latest fiasco.”

“Never mind that our government has been desperately seeking to regain control of Iran’s oil ever since the ‘79 Islamic Revolution?”

“He’ll say Israel made him do it.”

“Will the public fall for this?”

“Depends.”

“On what?”

“Whether or not he’s able to stoke the always simmering coals of anti-Semitism.”

“If he is?”

“Jews watch out.”

“And if he isn’t?”

“The public will force Congress to impeach him & STAT.”

“And then what sort of world?”

“It’ll be up to us.”

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By Marshall, July 15, 2008 at 6:21 pm Link to this comment

Ritter’s article completely ignores the potential consequences of Iran obtaining nukes, and grossly overstates Iran’s military capabilities and likely response.

Iran demonstrated no new military capability in its recent display, so it’s unlikely that battle scenarios have changed significantly as a result.  And we’re talking about the same Iran that lost a war to Iraq, whom we later vanquished in mere days.

I have no doubt that Hezbollah would be called to action by Iran in the event of an attack.  And that Israel would respond far more decisively than before.  Nor do I doubt that the price of oil would increase, or that the U.S. would suffer casualties.

But the ideologically driven Iranian leadership is not constrained by the secular logic of self-preservation under which a policy of Assured Destruction can prevail.  Nor would it hesitate to arm those who would use nuclear weapons against its ideological foes.

Ritter must consider the horrifying possibility that Iran is intent on building nuclear weapons and face up to the choices that will have to be made if diplomacy fails.  In an ideal world, it wouldn’t - but I think we’re all aware that we don’t live in Utopia.

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By samosamo, July 15, 2008 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

By Ali Mostofi, July 15 at 3:25 pm

Hot DAMN! Ali, YOU WIN THE LOLLIPOP! You finally comprehended and I am thinking without knowing it, What I was trying to drag out of madison ford and you then jumped in feet first without checking what was the intent of my comment. Unfortunately I could only take it as your talking down to me like I was pullin a bush trick on you.
Some where when I have the time, I will research this for my own gratification and knowledge.

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By JohnnyDoe, July 15, 2008 at 5:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

``The whole world knows that every arab country in the world (and not a few non-arab, islamist countries), wants to see Israel destroyed and it’s citizens killed.’‘

This is what the kosher US media tells us, but the reality on the ground reads like this:

``The whole world know that ISRAEL wants to see every Arab/Muslim country destroyed and is using its US Proxy to do so. It is doing a damn good job.’’

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By Ali Mostofi, July 15, 2008 at 4:25 pm Link to this comment

samosamo, July 15 at 2:53 pm #

said this

“Just to satisfy your incomprehensible minds I don’t care what religion was there first, it was a group of people who were there first and neither you or madison ford can go back far enough to say who it was that got their sorry asses kicked off of it.”

Well you are wrong again.  We have a history that is 15000 years old, and it is written in our sacred book the Zend-Avesta.

Your style of writing and your statements do not change facts about our ancient civilization.  You need to learn a bit more, before carry on the way you are.

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By cyrena, July 15, 2008 at 4:11 pm Link to this comment

Lefty, do you even READ the actual articles, (Howard doesn’t) here’s what you wrote:

“…By Lefty, July 15 at 12:12 pm #
Cyrena,
“I’ll be measured and simply say that your characterization of Israel as paranoid is cheap rhetoric! “
So, allow me to be just as measured, and AGAIN paste from the article, and again IN QUOTES and with a bullet mark, so that you’ll figure out where the ‘characterization of Israel as paranoid came from..
•  “…Israeli paranoia—derived not so much from any genuine Iranian threat but rather an affront to Israeli nuclear hegemony in the Middle East—must in turn be subdued.

NOT MY CHARACTERIZATION lefty! This is an article written by Scott Ritter. I very much happen to AGREE with this characterization, but it has been offered by the author of the piece. NOT ME! So if you think it’s cheap rhetoric, tell Scott Ritter. Like I said, I happen to think it’s an excellent piece, and I don’t appreciate the paranoia of Israel, (regardless of what drives it) bringing Armageddon to the rest of the world.

I wish you ideologues would actually READ stuff before you go off half cocked. Delusional people are dangerous to societies at large, REGARDLESS of what the particular delusion happens to be.

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By samosamo, July 15, 2008 at 3:53 pm Link to this comment

By Ali Mostofi, July 15 at 12:40 pm #

Damn I hate having to explain myself. I am not sure if you are refering to me or to madison ford, I am simple stating that the peoples of the middle east, for argument’s sake, were all over that area on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean sea for how long, any body? Well before Islam was invented and I bet long before Judism was invented. So Judism comes 1st, right? Well, maybe it was the cannanites(sp) but even before that. Just to satisfy your incomprehensible minds I don’t care what religion was there first, it was a group of people who were there first and neither you or madison ford can go back far enough to say who it was that got their sorry asses kicked off of it. I don’t know or I would have told to to save a stupid comment such as this one to get any of you to give a short history of the people of the region. So go stuff yourselves because in the end nobody owns anything, not even yourselves, mind and body.
This really re-enforces my idea that anybody any group especially if they invoke the blessing of their god really proves that organized religion is one of the worse things ever to happen on this planet next to money.
I would like to come back in about a million years just to see all that gold all them jewels just stacked around looking pretty and every body that coveted it all… DEAD AND GONE! What an epitat to a dead civilization.

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By Ali Mostofi, July 15, 2008 at 3:20 pm Link to this comment

robertsgt40

Not quite, it is all related to oil.  Wait and see major warmongerings now that crude has dropped big time today.

The US neocons and Seyyeds are in this together.

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By robertsgt40, July 15, 2008 at 2:25 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hats off to Iran. It appears the only thing we understand is force. Deplomacy is out the window.  Titter is on target. One option not mention is false flag by Israel. Soon our congress and Bushco will have to decide whether to cut Israel loose or go down with the ship.

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By felicity, July 15, 2008 at 2:11 pm Link to this comment

Madison - my ‘digression’ was merely an addendum to your digression that there never was a ‘nation Palestine.’ 

By your reasoning, the desecration and pillaging of the sacred Indian burial sites in America by us is comparable to the infringement of Muslims in Jerusalem, the sacred site of Jews.  In the former case, we destroyed them.  In the latter case, Muslims are not destroying the holy-of-Jewish-holies, they are merely asking to worship Allah along side.

If a person truly worships God, why would he deny God the worship of others.

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By Ali Mostofi, July 15, 2008 at 1:40 pm Link to this comment

your comments

“samosamo, before muslims came on the scene circa 800 - 1200 A.D., they were spread over much of the same areas they are now—modern Turkey, Iran (formerly Persia), Jordan.

The argument is over whether Islam has a claim to Jerusalem as a holy city. And Israel says, No, Jerusalem was holy to Judaism thousands of years before Islam was even a though.”

is totally incorrect.  You need to study Persian history.  Cyrus the Great gave the Jews their land in 559 BC.

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By Tony, July 15, 2008 at 1:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Some of you posters are truly pathetic.

Keep repeating the “wipe off the map” lie.

The Iranian President never, I repeat, NEVER said that.

The fact is, a zionist propaganda machine called Memri deliberately mis-translated Mr Almadinjad quote to spread zionist lies and propaganda through the pro Israel kosher US media.

He quoted the Imam as saying “the regime that occupies Jerusalem will one day be like the communist and vanish from the pages of time”. This has been widely published and the zionist lies exposed but of course the kosher media never publishes these reports.

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