Kath,

•  “Regarding ‘the facts’, it has become almost impossible to discern them….The only info you can rely on in this election is the politicians’ voting records, IF you can access them.”

I agree. My own comments were actually broader than the election itself, in speaking to the facts in conjunction with the rule of law. (and it’s an ideological habit of mine I admit). So, I was thinking of ‘judgment’ more in terms of the larger jurisprudence landscape, as well as on the more personal levels, taking into account ALL things, and of course we know that doesn’t happen as it should, and it CERTAINLY isn’t happening in this election campaign.

Just a tiny example of what I mean on a much broader scale, is a conversation I was having with my mother last night. She suffers from Alzheimer’s but one wouldn’t necessarily know that, if they didn’t know her, and of course the times of ‘lucidity’ come and go. Among other things in this conversation, she was accusing the woman who recently cleaned their house, of stealing $53.00 dollars out of her dresser drawer. Now, if someone *either* didn’t know my mother, or knew her but wasn’t aware that she was now afflicted by this disease; they might believe this as a possibility, without knowing anything else. I was immediately certain that it probably was NOT true, (like 99.99% certain) and so I’m likely to blow it off as an unwarranted accusation; at least in my own personal assessment or ‘judgment’.

Now, someone exercising NO judgment, or maybe inclined not to like this woman ANYWAY, might immediately pronounce the woman ‘guilty’ of stealing this $53.00, and create multiple hassles for the woman. Meantime, at some point, the $53.00 is likely to show up somewhere else in the house, and then again, maybe it won’t, because my mother might have spent it herself long ago. Or, it may not have even been there in the first place. I wasn’t there, and I don’t even know the lady who cleaned the house, so my own ‘certainty’ (at least in this case) is because I DO know my mother, and we’ve had multiple occasions of this sort of thing, often with ME as the ‘thief; be it a hat, dish, music record, book, or photo. I don’t even WEAR hats, and I know damn well I haven’t *stolen* anything from her.

BUT..to avoid commotion, and because he has to live with her and hear this 24/7, my dad is possibly likely to ‘go along’ with the story. No, he wouldn’t go so far as to accuse the woman himself, (though his mind is getting a little muddy as well), but still…rather than get into some sort of totally illogical argument with her about it, he’d be likely to try to find a way to smooth it over.

Now I know this may seem like a stretch to ‘judging’ and an abuse of power, (actually, this doesn’t address the ‘abuse of power’ issue at all) but you see how it can create a bunch of shit in attempting to discern anything and/or prepare it for any sort of judgment. But, if there was far more at risk, or ‘on the line’ in such events or occasions, it would be IMPERATIVE to recognize the reality of the facts, (like my mother’s less than credible accusations) before condemning the cleaning lady.

As for the rest, you are so very, very, correct. This is an example of how difficult ‘the facts’ are to discern these days, and especially in reference to the election. For the same reason that some other person, (who already didn’t like the cleaning lady, or maybe wanted her job) might have been willing to jump on board in the accusations against her, so it is with this election.

Unfortunately, even checking their votes isn’t necessarily helpful, without ALSO reading the full context of the bill, and any comments that might be on the record. That’s because there are so many conditions attached to nearly ALL legislation, and we don’t always know what those are. Actually, we RARELY do.

But you’re right. We’re spiraling out of control.

Like i said, the bar is so low you can trip over it.

For you nimrod, I guess the bar really IS that low on evidence. You obviously don’t require ANY. You’ll just believe whatever anybody tells you.

So hey..I’ve got a few buildings in downtown Manhattan I’d like to sell you…real cheap. I’ll email you the paperwork, with instructions on where you can deposit the money, and I’ll be sure and send you the deed and all.

You’ll love the place. (if you can find it).

Kath, I always appreciate your posts, but especially this last one, so of course I have to add-on.
•  “In all cases I have no respect for abuse of power, as it deserves none. The antithesis of power-abuse is fairness. Love. That’s what i’m about. That’s my template for judging people (and myself), and i most certainly do judge. It’s a necessary evil.”

This is my 1st ‘favorite’ part, because of course, being human, the favorite parts are obviously the ones I agree with.

But I wanted to say that I’ve figured something out, and maybe semi-recently, about this ‘judging’ thing.  I don’t think it’s necessarily an ‘evil’ like the psycho babblists tell us. In fact, we SHOULD judge, first ourselves, and then whatever the situation is, but ONLY after learning the facts. If we DON’T do this, then it’s the same as standing-by and doing nothing.

I came by this particular wisdom from yet another favorite professor, (who knows the same one that reminds me of you) during yet another course about Law and Conflict. Because, unless we DO educate ourselves about the nature of the conflict, and then actually make a judgment based on objectivity, and….THE RULE OF LAW, (because that’s why such laws have been carefully crafted) then the conflicts can never be resolved.

The “Laws of War’ were codified in honest assessment of the fact of human nature, that wars WOULD always happen. The point was to prevent as many as possible, and also to limit the disastrous effects, (particularly to civilians) when they became unavoidable. And, in all honesty, these laws, treaties, conventions, and all the rest, actually DO limit these damages, WHEN THEY ARE ACKNOWLEDGED, and the relevant parties to adhere to them. But, they also allow for JUDGMENT, because when all is said and done, that has to happen, based on objectivity and again…the agreements that are in place.

This ‘abuse of power’ that we both so abhor, is the reason why the plan doesn’t always work. And on that, we STILL have to ‘judge’ at some point in time. Otherwise…the abuse of power continues. That said, we have to always judge ourselves first. Some would say that objectivity cannot happen in such cases, but I beg to differ. It may not in many cases, but that doesn’t mean that it CANNOT. I actually DO pride myself on objectivity, even when it requires acknowledging things that I may not like about any given situation. I’m also careful to ‘figure in’ or otherwise ‘adjust for’ the standard biases that are likely to be present. It requires a whole bunch of ‘hard thinking’.

That said, I have to admit to being guilty of some extreme condemnations of Israel myself, but I’ve also tried to make it clear that just as the majority of the US population is not directly responsible for the acts of our administrators, I know that the people of Israel are not responsible (at least not a majority) of the acts of their own government.

What I suspect, is a situation not unlike the one that we have here. It would ‘appear’ that the majority of the US population is supportive of the crimes that have been done in our name, just by nature of the fact that a seeming majority elected the people perpetrating these crimes. (and have done nothing to remove them) But the reality is that there has never been a real majority responsible for the election of these people. And even those that DO support this regime, are obviously NOT aware of the real danger. We are a nation that has become either totally distanced from what is actually happening, (because we know NOTHING) or a because we’ve been totally misinformed by false propaganda. Probably both.

Israel of course is smaller, and I always believed had a better informed population. But..I could be wrong. I do know that they cannot all be blamed for the actions of their leaders.

I highly recommend Sandy Tolan’s book, The Lemon Tree, for a look at a relationship between the conflicting parties of that conflict.

More later of your take on 9/11.

“I don’t know who planned and perpetrated the attacks of 9/11 nimrod. I only know that it was organized with US State resources. So, that would include the CIA, and the Pentagon, (the DoD had 15 plus drills/exercises going that day, which is why there was ZERO response to those events for nearly 2 hours) and any other agency that Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld worked out for the operation.”

So, you don’t know who planned and perpetrated the attacks, but they you say it was the pentagon, the CIA, Cheney and Rumsfeld?

Do you realize that those to statements do not support each other?

No, i guess you don’t.

Like i said, the bar is so low you can trip over it.

Thanks for making my job easier.  Sure you aren’t a disinfo agent?  No one could actually be this poor at supporting their ideas.

”..You should see what she put forward as evidence the the jews were behind 9/11…”

Quit lying Nimrod. I’ve never said such a thing as the Jews being behind 9/11. That’s not to say that many have made such a claim, but there’s nothing to back it up.

So, stop lying Nilo. And definitely stop lying on ME.

The 9/11 official story is a lie. Nobody is ‘denying’ that 9/11 happened moron. We saw the buildings blown up by controlled demolition.

The problem is that there’s no evidence that any Islamist extremist terrorists happened to be the ones who set up the explosives in advance of that day. There’s no evidence that Islamic terrorists were anywhere around, or had anything to do with it. There’s no evidence that any commercial jetliners ever crashed into the Pentagon or in a field in Pennsylvania.

So, if you think the expectation for the bar of evidence is too low if one expects to see SOME evidence of SOME debris, (even a tail light) from FOUR commercial jetliners that were allegedly high jacked and crashed, then you’re good with the Bermuda Triangle stories as well.

I don’t know who planned and perpetrated the attacks of 9/11 nimrod. I only know that it was organized with US State resources. So, that would include the CIA, and the Pentagon, (the DoD had 15 plus drills/exercises going that day, which is why there was ZERO response to those events for nearly 2 hours) and any other agency that Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld worked out for the operation.

And, unless you think THEY are aliens, I’d say it probably wasn’t aliens that did it. No evidence says it was Jews either, although Rumsfeld may be one.

“Why couldn’t it be aliens? I think it’s aliens. Why has the government been so quiet about it? Governments are usually quiet about aliens. Aliens can fire invisible missiles that no one can see; this explains everything. The pieces of aircraft they discovered were planted by aliens who teleported into the pentagon, placed the pieces, and left. Disprove THAT.”

Cyrena probably now believes that.  She, like most 9/11 deniers, sets the bar for evidence so low that you could trip over it.  You should see what she put forward as evidence the the jews were behind 9/11.  It was some anonymous letter written by someone who worked for an unnamed news organization about an unnamed source who had some secret info that was passed along by unnamed sources from the mossad. 

But with cyerna, it doesn’t take much for her to blame anything on the jews, i guess at least this time it could be considered that she was at least trying to support her bigotry.

One thing that this post and the associated comments remind me of is that old saying:

“Bullshit makes the flowers grow, websites, blogs and posts can make them overflow!”

Ah…so Niloth is back. We can always count on Nilo to show up anywhere the actually truth might leak out about 9/11. And, we can hope to be rid of him as soon as it leaves the front page.

As for you guiche…you’ve pretty much made my argument really easy, (so Nilo won’t have to read so much….it’s difficult for him apparently)

You say this…

•  “…I suppose some people can’t be swayed by any amount of evidence…”

Maybe that’s true, but I’m not one of them. EVIDENCE to support FACTS is exactly what I look for in anything. It’s what I do. And, there is virtually NO EVIDENCE to support the ‘official conspiracy of 9/11”. But, there is plenty of evidence to indicate that the 9/11 Commission report is a LIE. Tons of it.

The biggest piece of the missing evidence that should be a no brainer for even the dumbest, would parts of airplanes and their contents. In short, what Nilo simply won’t accept, (and has consequently turned himself into a Bill O’Reilly clone to try to cover up) is that fact that there has never been a single solitary piece of physical evidence from ANY one of those 4 airplanes, to prove that they ever did what they did. NO sign of an airplane at the Pentagon, and NO sign of the supposed airplane that allegedly crashed in Pennsylvania, and no sign of the airplanes that allegedly hit the WTC.

So, 4 commercial airliners COMPLETELY DISAPPEAR, without leaving a single trace, and we’re expected to believe that? Sorry. The WTC was a controlled demolition, and there could be a million studies faked by whomever is paid to fake them, and it wouldn’t change the fact that those buildings were blown up by a controlled demolition.

Nilo claims I was unaware of the airport near the Pentagon. He’s lying as usual. I’ve flown in and out of the airport multiple times. ALL airports have emergency response teams that respond to air disasters, and yet…just a few yellow jacketed FEMA people were available after this 757 crashed into what obviously one of the most important buildings in the Nation. That’s it.

Does it not alarm you that such a thing could supposedly happen? That not even the PENTAGON can be protected from some alleged Islamists who don’t have a clue about how to fly airplanes in the US? Does it not alarm you that for a FULL hour and 45 minutes, there was NO Defense response to this unprecedented event? It should.

Now maybe you wouldn’t know any of this, because maybe you don’t know anything about the aviation industry. Like, maybe you’ve never even been on a commercial aircraft flight. It’s been at least 30 years, (maybe longer) since flight attendants were referred to as “stewardesses.”

Nope, I’ve never been a flight attendant. I’m a federally licensed aviator. The ID simply says ‘airman’ though I’d like them to eventually update that to include airwomen. We’ve been navigating the skies long enough now, to have that changed.

I really think you guys should try to get up to speed with the reality of the thing. It may come in handy one day. There may have been an excuse for your ignorance up through say, 2003 or even 2004. Once the “Official Lie” came out in the form of the 9/11 Commission Report though, you should have been able to figure it out.

BTW Nilo, I explained to you earlier, that your NTSB report was worthless, because you couldn’t produce the standard NTSB report. In short, the NTSB is always among the first responders to air disasters. (I also told you that…I’ve unfortunately been present at far too many..it was one of my jobs) The NTSB didn’t show up for any of these on 9/11, until way after the fact, and the stuff that was purported to be documented from the NTSB were obviously bad fakes. I mean come on. FORMS are pretty standard.

Find some real evidence guys…that we can all see, and maybe we’ll be ‘swayed’. You won’t be able to come up with any of course, but then…we already know that.

Sorry guichemot, i meant to let you know earlier.  Cyrena is insane.  I have debunked the things she brings up time and time again, but she is still at it.  She won’t read anything you try to link her to, and she will just recycle the same old BS time and time again.  And she types long rambling posts that make no sense.

She claims to work in aviation, but was surprised to fin d that there is an airport roughly 1 mile from the pentagon.  She has lied and misquoted people many times, and never admits it when i call her on it.  She claimed she would believe the NTSB reports on the planes that were involved in the 9/11 attacks, and said they didn’t exist.  When i found them for her, she just never admitted it, and still doubts that planes were used in the attacks. 

She is as dense and concrete and just as slow.  Don’t waste your time.

Glad to see another rationalist on this site though.  It is a nice change.  I really wish these 9/11 idiots would stop damaging the credibility of the progressives, but i fear it is an uphill fight.

Purple Girl, mostly your points are well taken. I’d quibble only with some details that may seem minor, but really are not. You write here.

•  “..They ahve allowed M.E. ‘Royals’ to use US as scapegoats to explain THEIR oppressive regimes. why is it we have not held the Saudi’s responsible for 9/11 when the majority of the attackers came from THEIR LOINS (Born & Raised)? Afghanistan was just a ‘College Campus’ it was not the ideological birth place.Let’s not forget who helped Binny during the Afghani/Russia War…”

Part of this is ‘true’ in that it can in fact be corroborated. For instance, the ‘help’ provided by the US to binny, (great name for OBL) back during the Afghani fight against the intended take over by the Soviets. We know this to be fact, and it’s been documented as such, in multiple places, and by multiple sources.

I think it’s also correct to put the IDEOLOGICAL birthplace of the ‘terrorists’ in Saudi Arabia, as well as Egypt. (Just a reminder that al-Qadea was formed by the old bin Laden group and the old Zawahiri group, using bin Laden’s money, and Zawahiri’s brain). We can actually follow the Egyptian connection back to Sayyed Qutb, and the Brits have an excellent film “The Power of Nightmares” that helps to explain this history. (torture was in the picture even then). Another really great book is The Looming Towers: The Road to 9/11.” (or something like that). I wanna say that the author is Lawrence Green, but sometimes this stuff runs together, and I don’t have it in front of me to check right now.

That said, we KNOW that this group did form, and does exist, and that at least one of its founders, (OBL) is a product of the House of Saud. HOWEVER, keep in mind that bin Laden is technically an ‘exile’ from his own homeland, BECAUSE he rejects the relationship between the Saudi Royals and the US Monarchy as it has mostly been represented by the Bush-Cheney regime, as well as the Carlyle Group and others. And I’ve said that to say that I’m not so sure that it’s been the “Royals” using US as much as it’s been the US Monarchy using the Royals, (or maybe them using each other). That’s worth a dissertation of its own.

BUT, what we DON’T REALLY KNOW, is that any of them had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks. On THAT, (the claim that many were Saudi born) we’re just taking the Liars word for it. They’ve never provided a single proof of evidence that those alleged 19 ‘highjackers’ were who they claim they were.

In fact, NONE of the Official story of 9/11 has ever been corroborated with any physical evidence. EVER.

Now I didn’t need to watch ‘loose change’ to know that the official story was a lie. I knew it as soon as I saw those buildings explode in Manhattan, because as a career professional in the commercial aviation industry, I knew that the airplanes did not, (and could not) cause that destruction. Knowing THAT, and realizing that not a single piece of physical evidence has EVER been made available from any of those 4 jet liners, makes the entire story suspect.
The ‘idea’ for the attack may well have occurred within the minds of OBL and his ‘team”. (OBL also once planned to attack Saddam’s Iraq, until someone explained that he was nuts, since at the time, Saddam had the 4th largest military on the globe, and OBL had –maybe- 300 ‘warriors;). So yeah, maybe he DID make such ‘threats’ against the US. But as you’ve mentioned, IF they were really going to go through with a ‘terrorist’ attack, they could have far more easily used the airplanes to target the nuclear facilities in Upstate New York, and caused a whole lot MORE terror.

That said, I don’t believe that al-Qaeda had anything to do with 9/11. I believe that the real terrorists ‘stole’ the idea, and did it themselves. Bin Laden made a good patsy, and the major moles were Cheney and Rumsfeld, and…as always…the CIA.

Ms. Cocco writes:
•  “…Indeed, the report of the 9/11 Commission—now four years old—is the closest we’ve ever come to assembling facts, rather than merely repeating political claims that so often turn out to be fantasy…”

I would disagree with this entirely. The 9/11 Commission Report, (the “official version”) is NOT the closest we’ve ever come to assembling facts. RATHER, that Commission report has only put forth an official ‘COVER UP” of the facts, and thereby continues to perpetrate the political claims that are in fact…FANTASY.

She summarizes with this:

•  “…The threat is real. So is the fear. What are these candidates going to do about it?..”

The ‘threat’ of terrorism may in fact be ‘real’, but the larger threat of it has so far been from within. In short, the threat of terrorism is from the regime in power in the US, and their work with their ‘allies’ in bringing it about.

That is not to say that ‘terrorism’ doesn’t exist anywhere else on the globe, or might be perpetrated by individual actors on the globe. It’s true that al-Qaeda DOES exist. (or at least they did). There has never been any positive or corroborated evidence that “al-Qaeda” was responsible for, (or even involved) in the 9/11 attacks on the US.

So, IF terrorism is a threat to Americans, we have to first find out who is actually terrorizing us, and WHY? In other words, it’s not enough just to say that the ‘threat is real’. We need concrete examples of WHY it is real. Once THAT has been resolved, then the ‘real’ fear will be resolved as well.

We already have a very good idea of why we’ve been subjected to other acts of terrorism over the years. The USS Cole, (docked illegally at Yemen), the Embassies in Africa, and other incidents that have occurred as well. (including the 1993 attacks on the WTC). We know, (because the ‘terrorists’ have told us this so many times) that it is a reaction to the forced hegemony that that the US has been engaged in, for decades. We know that it is because the US has used its military to in fact, ‘rule the world’ or at least attempt to.

We ALSO know, (because the likes of OBL and others have said so) that we are at risk because of the support that we have consistently lent to the Israeli terrorist regime, in their 60 year old crimes against humanity. Many Americans are already aware of this thing that has made up ripe for these attacks. Many others refuse to acknowledge it.

So, while I would agree that the ‘threat’ remains UNEXAMINED, (because it’s been covered up), any real examination requires the truth about 9/11, and the commitment to a foreign policy that requires a reversal of the Bush Doctrine and the PNAC global goals. In other words, we have to get the hell out of the Middle East, and everywhere else that we are not wanted. And, the world community is going to have to deal with Israel to stop their overwhelmingly despicable behavior as well. We cannot afford to associate ourselves with other criminals in perpetrating these crimes against humanity, and NOT expect to remain targets for retaliatory terrorism.

I’m not particularly hopeful that this will be resolved by any of the candidates. John McCain isn’t going to promote any examination of the ‘threat’ because he doesn’t want the 9/11 truth to come out. Obama at least APPEARS to believe the official story, so the only hope with him, is that he would not stand in the way of an investigation by ‘we the people’ to expose what there is to be exposed. The only other possible hope with Obama is that he at least recognizes the source and general location of the real ‘threat’ which is more in Southern Asia, (Afghanistan/Pakistan) than it is anywhere else..at least in it’s current form. That doesn’t eliminate the REAL threat of the terrorism that has been perpetrated from within though. (the terror of 9/11)

So, we’ll just have to see I guess.

Purplegirl,They did plan 9-11. Why else would Cheney have denied our fighter pilots to intercede the incoming missile(yes, not a plane)that was heading for the Pentagon? Cheney was the one who gave the orders to wait, even though we could have taken it out before it hit the Pentagon. Also, within 15 minutes of it hitting said building, there were pictures of the site and the surrounding area. Where was all the plane wreckage? There was none. That explains the missile theory, which our government still claims was a plane. Anyone who has seem a large plane crash knows wreckage is scattered around sometimes for miles, the area was clean. No wreckage at all and it would not have been cleaned up within 15 minutes either. The opening in the wall of the Pentagon was round-no marks for the wings of a plane and as for the explanation the wings disintegrated upon impact-where is the debris as there are in big plane crashes. Remember Lockerbee, Scotland, or any large plane crash, debris all over the area. So where did it go if it was it was really a plane and not a missile? Cheney/Bush and those criminals know the truth, why do you think they kept delaying the investigations into this event so long? This was a planned event.

9/11 was another attack on the Military industrial complex which has used US as campoflague and humna Shields for Decades.
In the ‘70’s we got a ‘shot over our Bow’ with the Oil Crisis, Hostage Crisis and Numerous highjackings. We have had a variety of other ‘attacks’ going on ever since.
You only have to think for a Second about what insitituions were targeted- financing, Pentagon, White House-THE MIC!! Not any ‘soft Targets’.
This Political Industrial Organizations has had a Business stratedgy/agenda for decades that has placed US in harms way.They have played a deadly game not only with our lives, but our economy and our future. They ahve allowed M.E. ‘Royals’ to use US as scapegoats to explain THEIR oppressive regimes. why is it we have not held the Saudi’s responsible for 9/11 when the majority of the attackers came from THEIR LOINS (Born & Raised)? Afghanistan was just a ‘College Campus’ it was not the ideological birth place.Let’s not forget who helped Binny during the Afghani/Russia War.
Mac’s henchmen Black revealed far more then he thought - that was not just a Political statement about an Attack ‘Benefiting Mac’s Campaign’ it was a confession of how 9/11 has been used to benefit the ‘New World Order’ indoctrinated Regime( HW Freudian Slip/confession).I’m not afraid of Islam, I ‘m afraid of those in our Gov’t and their accomplices.They MAY have not planned 9/11, but they Caused it and they took full advantage of it to usurp our rights and Freedoms. So who are the ‘They’ Georgie was talking about when he said ‘They hate US for Our Freedoms’, the Oil Cronies and their Insiders- Pinky and the Brain (W. & DICK)...‘So what we gonna do today,Brain?’ Invade Iran. I know exactly who are the Real terrorist to Humanity- they are sitting in the WH,Congress,SCOTUS,Boardrooms, OPEC and in the Pentagon. And every last one of them should be charged with High Crimes and Punished to the fullest extent of the law!