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|  The Middle East Never Tires of ThreatsPosted on Jun 16, 2008
By Robert Fisk Originally printed in The Independent. What is it about threats? What possesses half the Middle East to shout abuse all the time? First we have Ahmadinejad, one of the most crackpot presidents in the world, raving away about annihilating Israel. Then we have Shaul Mofaz, the deputy Israeli Prime Minister, telling the world that there would have to be attacks on Iran’s nuclear facilities. Mofaz was maybe trying to walk tall beside the increasingly powerless Ehud Olmert, or maybe he was just trying to make up for having been a spectacularly unsuccessful chief of staff in his previous incarnation. But why do we have to listen to all this? In fact, why must we take it seriously at all? “Israel warns” has become one of the great clichés of our journalism—along, of course, with “Arabs threaten”. But here we go again, Mofaz talks up war and up again goes the price of oil. It’s not that long ago—2006, to be precise—when we had another Israeli chief of staff, Dan Halutz, warning that he would destroy 10-story buildings in Beirut’s southern suburbs for every rocket fired at Haifa—quite a threat, except that Danny Boy’s lads had already destroyed all the 10-story buildings in the Beirut suburbs. And it was only 26 years ago, I recall, that Menachem Begin, then the Israeli prime minister, announced that he was going to “root out the evil weed of terror” from Lebanon. One night, sitting by the empty pool of the Commodore Hotel, I listened on my transistor—yes, those were the days, weren’t they—as a newsreader announced that Yasser Arafat was metaphorically promising to chop off Mr. Begin’s left arm. Within hours, Begin was rabbiting away about chopping off part of Mr. Arafat’s anatomy. I laughed so much I could have fallen into the empty pool. And where, pray, today is the “evil weed of terror”? Well, according to the Bush boys, it’s now all over south-west Asia, in Gaza, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Syria, in Lebanon. So much for the “evil weed”, which seems to have grown deeper roots than the late Mr. Begin thought. Besieging west Beirut in 1982, the Israelis warned that every civilian should leave the city if he or she valued the lives of their families. I’ve still got the little air-dropped threats which said this (admittedly in execrable Arabic). But most Beirutis just ignored it. Then the Israelis warned that journalists were going to be kidnapped during the siege if they did not leave west Beirut—another good try to cut down on our reporting. But we ignored the threats and stayed and were not kidnapped, but we were there to record the war crimes of Sabra and Chatila on 18 September 1982. The Arabs used to have quite a monopoly on threats. I remember one spring day in 1978 when a member of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine general command (itself a preposterous title) stormed up to me after an Israeli raid in southern Lebanon. He shook his hand at the sky. “We shall stand in the last ditch against the Zionist death wagon,” he roared. The what, I asked? The what? Well, I bet he had them shaking in their boots in Tel Aviv with that one. Anyway, back came the planes and the last I saw of this preposterous warrior, he was hurling himself into a very real ditch to avoid the death wagon. The problem about threats, of course, is that once you’ve made them, you’ve either got to carry them out or pretend you were misunderstood. I never believed George Bush would invade Iraq; not, that is, until I turned up at UN headquarters in New York and actually heard him ranting on about the powerlessness of the UN. And then he actually did invade Iraq. And I still have my notes of an interview with a certain Osama bin Laden, and his last words to me were: “I pray that God permits us to turn America into a shadow of itself.” And I wrote in the margin the one word “rhetoric?” September 11 cleared that one up. I fear very much that we indulge ourselves in threats. Newspapers love threats—or warnings—because they ramp up the fear factor. And governments love threats. Hence all those orange alerts and purple warnings and endless waffle from the Ministry of Fear about the “terrorist” threat lasting a lifetime, a generation or—this was Bush, I seem to remember—that the “war on terror” might have to go on for ever. For ever? Even the Thousand Year Reich wasn’t supposed to go on for that long. But there was one dark soul who did use threats to induce fear more frequently than anyone else. Yes, I am talking about Hitler, who would scream and rage at nations and empires and generals and—by and large, between 1933 and autumn 1939—he pretty much got what he wanted. That, I suspect, is why we all still fear threats so much. Because Hitler had a habit of carrying out his threats, and all across the dark continent, men shook with fear that he would smash them—and he did. The entire Gestapo was threat—which was why Churchill always pronounced it as “the Nazi Jest-a-po” in an attempt to take its fear quotient away, even as he was talking of Europe under the Germans’ “cruel heel”. And when Ahmadinejad talks of annihilating Israel, he cowers, of course, under the shadow of Hitler. And he intends, I think, to make us fear him—although no Iranian military force would let him get his hands on anything nuclear. “Annihilating” Israel—always supposing anyone would truly contemplate it—also means annihilating the West Bank and Gaza and much of Lebanon and Jordan and probably the whole Middle East. But Hitler is dead and we need to escape from the world of threats. Was it not King Lear who once shouted: “I shall do such things, what they are yet I know not—but they shall be the terrors of the earth.” Poor old Lear. Previous item: Fiat Chief on the Global Finance Crisis Next item: Obama and Family Elsewhere: . CommentsAre you a Truthdig member yet? Login now, or register with Truthdig. |
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By cyrena, June 24 at 3:31 pm #
mrmb and Jack. Thanks for the replies. This is continuing as planned, and yes...has me freaked out, even though I knew they would do this..
“..The Coming Catastrophe?
The finishing touches on several contingency plans for attacking Iran..”
By David DeBatto
URL of this article: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va& aid=9437
Global Research, June 23, 2008
Global Research Editor’s note
We bring to the attention of our readers David DeBatto’s scenario as to what might occur if one of the several contingency plans to attack Iran, with the participation of Israel and NATO, were to be carried out. While one may disagree with certain elements of detail of the author’s text, the thrust of this analysis must be taken seriously.
________________________________________
“Israel has said a strike on Iran will be “unavoidable” if the Islamic regime continues to press ahead with alleged plans for building an atom-bomb.” (London Daily Telegraph, 6/11/2008)
“Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany joined President Bush on Wednesday in calling for further sanctions against Iran if it does not suspend its uranium enrichment program.” Mr. Bush stressed again that “all options are on the table,” which would include military force. (New York Times, 6/11/2008)
We are fast approaching the final six months of the Bush administration. The quagmire in Iraq is in its sixth painful year with no real end in sight and the forgotten war in Afghanistan is well into its seventh year. The “dead enders” and other armed factions are still alive and well in Iraq and the Taliban in Afghanistan again controls most of that country. Gas prices have now reached an average of $4.00 a gallon nationally and several analysts predict the price will rise to $5.00-$6.00 dollars per gallon at the pump by Labor Day. This, despite assurances by some major supporters of the decision to invade Iraq that the Iraq war “will pay for itself” (Paul Wolfowitz) or that we will see “$20.00 per barrel” oil prices if we invade Iraq (Rupert Murdoch).
One thing the Pentagon routinely does (and does very well) is conduct war games. Top brass there are constantly developing strategies for conducting any number of theoretical missions based on real or perceived threats to our national security or vital interests. This was also done prior to the invasion of Iraq, but the Bush administration chose not to listen to the dire warnings about that mission given to him by Pentagon leaders, or for that matter, by his own senior intelligence officials. Nevertheless, war gaming is in full swing again right now with the bullseye just to the right of our current mess Iran.
Its no secret that the U.S. is currently putting the finishing touches on several contingency plans for attacking Iranian nuclear and military facilities. With our ground forces stretched to the breaking point in Iraq and Afghanistan, none of the most likely scenarios involve a ground invasion. Not that this administration wouldnt prefer to march into the seat of Shiite Islam behind a solid, moving line of M1 Abrams tanks and proclaim the country for democracy. The fact is that even the President knows we cant pull that off any more so he and the neo-cons will have to settle for Shock and Awe Lite.
Read more at the link:
URL of this article: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va& aid=9437
Report thisBy mrmb, June 24 at 9:12 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Just a follow up to our previous threads, conspiracy, war crimes, zionism and etc....
Here are facts from our liberating policies (advocated by criminal imperialists / zionists) for the people of Iraq and ME. This is from a piece from antiwar.com:
Iraq
If there is one minor positive outcome of Bush’s Middle East policy, it has to be the removal of Saddam Hussein and his Ba’ath Party from power. But at what price?
1-Iraq has effectively been partitioned among the Shi’ites, Sunnis, and Kurds.
2-Iraq became a vast training ground for extremists from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan, and Kuwait.
3-Iraq’s infrastructure has been damaged greatly. It would take decades to put Iraq back to where it was before the war.
4-Much of Iraq’s cultural heritage was looted from museums.
5-Iraqi prisoners were tortured at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere.
6-Two million Iraqis have left their country. Clearly, they are the highly educated (at least 3,000 of them professors), professionals, and the affluent, and, therefore, their departure is a great brain drain. Proportionally, it would be equivalent to 24 million Americans leaving the U.S.
7-Close to 2.5 million Iraqis have been displaced within Iraq. Proportionally, it would be equivalent to 30 million American refugees within the U.S.
8-As many as 1.1 million Iraqis may have been killed. Proportionally, it would as if over 13 million Americans had been killed, a staggering number. Notable among the dead are at least 230 Iraqi professors, with another 60 missing, presumably dead.
9-At least 1 million Iraqi children have become orphans.
10-Seventy percent of Iraqi children suffer from mental stress disorder.
Joseph Stiglitz of Columbia University, the 2001 Nobel laureate in economics, and Linda Bilmes of Harvard University estimated that the eventual cost of the war may reach $2 trillion. If, for a period of 10 years, the funding for cancer research were doubled, every American with diabetes or heart disease were treated, and a global immunization campaign that could save millions of children were carried out, the total cost would be about $600 billion.
As if the price that the Iraqis have paid so far is not enough, the Bush-Cheney administration has demanded the following in secret “negotiations” with Iraq’s government :
1-Fifty-eight military bases.
2-Control of Iraq’s airspace below 32,000 ft.
3-The authority to kill or arrest, without Iraq’s permission, anyone deemed “hostile.”
4-The authority to stage a war against terrorists anywhere from Iraq without Iraq’s permission.
5-Full immunity from prosecution in Iraq for the U.S. military and civilian contractors.
6-The last one the U.S. also demanded of Iran in the early 1960s, which sparked the June 5, 1963, uprising in Iran, which eventually led to the Iranian Revolution of 1979. As Ayatollah Khomeini said at that time:
“Capitulation means if we kill the dogs that the Americans bring to Iran, we will be jailed, but if they kill us, our spouse, or our children, or destroy our homes, they will not be even prosecuted in Iran.”
Bush’s Iraq legacy? A destroyed country, only nominally unified, and probably a quasi-colony of the U.S. for the foreseeable future.
Report thisBy mrmb, June 24 at 8:05 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Cyrena,
We are all on the same page. Just a reminder; look at the big picture first and then try to figure out the details if need be.
There are things that will be revealed over time only, therefore patience is required and dont allow them to confuse you.
There are historical, social, economical, cultural, military, technological, ...... trends all around us. But the key is connecting them together and making sense out of these trends.
Use Sherlock Holmes as a guide!!
Report thisBy jack, June 23 at 11:48 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
RE: the NWO-trilateral-Bilderberg stuff
Answer to the question to which JBlack refused to respond: Warren Buffet was waiting to receive the POTUS, 09/11/01 at Offut (US Nuclear HQ), at the end of Air Force One’s dash across the the Gulf Coast, over an hour without fighter cover, after the “Angle is Next” threat was phoned into the Secret Service, accompanied by enough top secret code to convince them the threat was real and that the author of the message could very possibly bypass failsafe and articulate a launch - not a Ludlum novel, a real coup d’état - the rogue network spoke, the POTUS capitulated, launched the GWOT and put the entire US military fully at the service of the NWO.
http://www.amazon.com/9-11-Synthetic-Terror-Fourth/dp/ 0930852370
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2005/07/317436.pdf
The 9/11 coup is an open secret in corridors of power the world over - Congress will do nothing...it’s literally scared stiff - you’ll recall the Anthrax investigation died as soon as it revealed the stuff had originated in a US Gov. lab - “protection,” oldest game in the book.
Report thisBy cyrena, June 23 at 10:54 pm #
WAIT!! I AGREE with you both!. It must have been the conspiracy word..
..Youd accept that theyd settle for just spinning a few stories in the media or hiring a few lobbyists? You accept that Bush Co. lied about everything, except 9/11? Seriously?
No, No, No. Ive never believed anything theyve come up with on 9/11? EVER! Ive known THAT was the biggest lie since day one. There has never been a single bit of evidence that the official conspiracy could be anything other than a lie.
Same for you mrmb. I dont know how I allowed myself to be misread, but again it was probably the conspiracy word.
What I have trouble with is just the details of ONE of the conspiracies, (be it real or otherwise). Im not convinced on the NWO-trilateral-Bilderberg stuff, and I dont see Obama as some pre-chosen person way back when, to play the Manchurian candidate role. If theres a connection there specifically, I dont see it.
But for the rest, yes I see all of the conspiracies for what they are. Is there a plan? Like to lock us up? Yeah I think so. Will we get to the point of a military regime and an SS style operation marching through the streets? I doubt it, but I dont know. Id hope to see the most urgent signs of it soon enough to get the hell out of here.
So yes I DO see alleged think tanks like the PNAC as the basis of the totalitarian ideology that has high jacked us most recently, and yes, I know that its been in the making for decades. And, all totalitarian regimes have a global ideology. Now if thats what you guys mean by a new world order than fine. There is no doubt in my mind what those position papers mean, and I know all of the signatories, and they are all actively involved in this take over, and have been for a long time now. If thats what youre referencing, then yeah I do see that, and yeah that would be a conspiracy I guess. I mean, I see it as the reality, because thats what it is, so I dont really think of it in terms of a conspiracy.
Its this Bilderberg and Trilateral Commission connection that throws me. So far, Im not sure where the sinister connections come from. The TC has been around for a long time, and has always been pretty transparent. I mean, their stuff is all on the record. In other words, like I said, Ive still not seen anything that extends to some shadowy global group like an old Ludlum novel. The neocons from the PNAC arent shadowy so we know about them and the control at the World Bank and the IMF and all of that.
And..we know that 9/11 was an inside job that probably involved the Saudis, the Pakistanis, Israels Mossad, and of course, as always our very own CIA. Thats what CIA is CONSPIRACY-IN-ACTION. They never stop, and they serve at the direct direction of the President. (or in this case..Dick Cheney).
So, if you mean that the now defunct PNAC and all of the transnationals that theyve been connected to, are some sort of NWO, (headquartered in Dubai) then Im likely to understand and accept that. But totalitarian type operators rarely create successors. Doesnt mean it NEVER happens, but not usually. And if these folks DO have one selected, it damn sure aint Barack Obama. He surprised everybody. So no, hes not in the NWO.
So: There are conspiracies, and then there are conspiracies. 9/11 is a conspiracy, because the official version of what took place is a lie and a conspiracy. The only connection I can see from 9/11 to a NWO, is that it provided the false flag attack to justify terrorizing the Middle East and controlling the entire region/its resources, for the benefit of the transnationals, who are presumably the NWO operatives.
Is that how youre figuring the connection?
I dont believe the NAFTA Superhighway stuff though, or the other related stuff.
Report thisBy jack, June 23 at 1:38 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
RE: I dont believe any of the NWO or trilateral commission stuff, and I dont know why anyone indulges in such far out conspiracies when there is enough real terror already.
The terror is so real it’ll kill ya and so it does far too many - and it works to terrorize and polarize - it works so well, it never goes away - GLADIO...look it up!
If you prefer to fight with your antagonists over why Christians hate Muslims hate Jews hate Hindus, et al, and who’s threats are real or phony or spun this way or that, or whatever, many will step up to take you on.
I for one, will not engage in this diversion, as it’s clear to me that the GWOT is an orchestrated GLADIO redux and ISLAMOFASCISM is the bogyman of MONOLITHIC COMMUNISM recast...to serve whom? Not the disenfranchised classes of Middle Eastern failed states, that’s for sure...if anything it makes them the target of even more oppression, terror, kidnappings, renditions, torture and worse.
Who among you seriously believes the global finance oligarchs are willing to let world events run their course without serious intervention from the shadows? You’d accept that they’d settle for just spinning a few stories in the media or hiring a few lobbyists? You accept that Bush Co. lied about everything, except 9/11? Seriously?
Again, 2 things to never forget:
1. “Deception is a state of mind and the mind of the state.” - James Jesus Angelton - Director of CIA Counter Intelligence (1954-74)
2. “The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media.” - William Colby - Director of the CIA (1973-76)
Report thisBy mrmb, June 23 at 1:07 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Cyrena,
I do beg to differ. As u know the invasion, wanton destruction of Iraq was pre-meditated and planned. Thats a conspiracy my lady.
The occupation of Palestine by zionists was a pre-meditated act and a conspiracy.
The occupation of American polity by zionists was a pre meditated act and therefore a conspiracy.
The instigation of Saddam to launch an invasion of Iran in 1980 was a pre-meditated act and thereofore a conspiracy.
I can list at least 20 more global conspiracies but the above will suffice for this thread.
All these pre-meditated acts of aggression and conpiracy have one significant common factor: “to hide the truth”.
In the case of Iraq the sheer arogance, ignorance, and incompetancy of those who conspired has exposed the lies and brought out the truth, if partial.
In the case of the occupation of Palestine and the destruction of the Palestinians livelihood, their subjugation and daily humiliation, historical denial of their existance as a people by the zionist leaders, and etc.... has been exposed due to resistance by generations of Palestinians to the detriment of the zionists and their conspiracies.
In the case of occupation of America’s polity they have been very successful and cunning but due to arogance, ignorance, delusional imperial tendencies, and the monumental failure in Iraq they have been exposed in this country and their exposure shall continue till the truth prevails.
In the case of instigating an act of aggression against Iran in 1980 where all imperial mouthpieces were adamant in their expectations and analysis that Iran would fall in 3 months or less and Saddam would be victorious, guess what that conspiracy was demolished by the sheer fact that the Iranians sacrificed themselves in thousands to save their country and their revolution and over the past 20 years since 1989 the truth has come out and those who conspired have been paying through the nose.
Amazing, isnt it??
My lady, dont underestimate those who have power and access to global resources and their continued effort to maintain and expand their criminal enterprise at any cost and eliminate their opponents at any cost.
Report thisThats a conspiracy too my dear!!!
By cyrena, June 23 at 12:25 pm #
Ok mrmb and zeitgeist, I’m taking your advice. (actually I’d already pretty much considered the same).
In the larger picture, JBlack and Rus7777 are insignificant. At the same time, one should never turn their backs to snake. I learned that the hard way. Sometimes just ignoring the danger leads to more.
But you’re right about pissing in the wind if I was actually trying to provide some knowledge and insight. I have a feeling though, that Russ knows very well what the deal is, and is just being a typical Cheney-O’Reilly and a troll. JBlack is crazy, so that’s definitely a waste there.
Arabian Thoroughbred, thanks for the acknowledgement. And yes, I have been following this for a long time now...(the plans for Iran). It’s very disheartening. But then, I guess that’s an understatement, eh?
I don’t believe any of the NWO or trilateral commission stuff, and I don’t know why anyone indulges in such far out conspiracies when there is enough real terror already.
Report thisBy amunaor, June 23 at 11:20 am #
RE: mrmb
Amen!
And, cyrena, stop pissing in the wind. You’ll only wet yourself.
Too some folks, ignorance truely is bliss.
Peace, Best Wishes and Hope
Report thisBy mrmb, June 23 at 10:29 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Cyrena,
I am sorry to say that you are wasting ur time with Russ and JBlack. Just look at their glorious leader in the white house and the neo crazies in the think tanks, that should clarify everything. If one is really confused then just take a look at little mad mccane.
These folks are delusional and drunk on power. They are so clueless!! Dont waste ur time.
Report thisBy cyrena, June 23 at 8:26 am #
Well, like I said Russ, I’ve already talked to a whole bunch of Iranians. And the ones I’ve talked to are all very fearful of what they know Dick Bush has in store for them. They are young people and they know the score.
In other words, it is not my ‘opinion’ that the attack on Iran was planned long ago, at the same time that the attack on Iraq was ‘scheduled’. That much was long ago documented in the Clean Break Papers and other policy adopted by the PNAC, and long BEFORE Ahmadinejad became president.
So, you really should try to catch-up. Seymour Hersh has written extensively on this, and Larry Wilkerson, former chief-of-staff to Colin Powell has been speaking and writing on this since leaving the organization in 2004.
Now you’ll have to do your own homework on that, but it’s not a difficult thing. Just check-in with your local library. There are all sorts of resources there.
Report thisBy Rus7355, June 23 at 1:32 am #
Cyrena,
Nice set of links. Useful.
Just try to talk to some Iranians. You’ll gain a more rounded understanding.
Report thisBy mrmb, June 22 at 9:49 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
http://www.honestmediatoday.com/who_brought_the_sla ves_to_america.htm
Report thisBy cyrena, June 22 at 9:10 pm #
You see, Cyrena, I am actually what you claim to be. That is how I know you are not.
Well gee Russ, Im only an insignificant scholar, and so my research is what scholars do to research. There has never, ever, ever, been ANY indication that you are a scholar, or a teacher, or that you do research. What kind of research do you do Russ?
I once had an uncle, (hes dead now) who researched horse races. He was a life long gambler.
Now you have suggested to me on multiple occasions, that I should talk to Iranians.
Heres the last time you suggested it
..I implore you to take the time to talk to Iranians. You cant do your research on the Internet.,,
Well first let me ask you this Russ .WHICH of the 70 million Iranians would you have me talk to, and HOW exactly, (unless they happen to be somewhere OTHER than in Iran) would you have me do that? Are YOU in Iran Russ? Is that how you know so much? Is that where you do your research Russ? Ooops probably not. I dont think theres much free access to the Internet over there Russ. But then, maybe Im wrong, since I actually DO manage to get a whole bunch of information on Iran, via the Internet. (Though that isnt my only source).
Still, since you keep telling me to talk to Iranians, (because of my western mentality what a joke you are telling somebody else about their western mentality) WHICH ONES Russ? The ones you wanna hold hands with? And, arent they HERE in the west Russ? Now if you really want me to talk to them, and interview them as part of my research, just line them up, and make them available. Otherwise, youre just talking your normal shit.
Meantime, Ill still look to my multiple sources, and the huge volumes of literature available from Iranian leaders like Shirin Ebadi and the many others Ive had an opportunity to meet and speak with, and whose work Ive closely followed.
http://www.parstimes.com/media/iran/
http://www.payvand.com/women/
http://www.merip.org/
http://www.farsinet.com/shirin_ebadi/
And no Russ, you are NOT what I am not even close.
I’ll wait for you to line up all of those Iranians that you want me to talk to, just so you aren’t one of them.
Report thisBy Arabian Thoroughbred, June 22 at 7:59 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Judging from the latest posts and exchanges between Cyrena, on the one hand, and JBlack & Rus 7355, on the other hand, Cyrena comes on the side of peace and commonsense, armed with knowledge, intellectual honesty and acumen, while her opponents come out as crude chauvinist warmongers, lacking in reason, knowledge and intellectual acumen!
Report thisBy jack, June 22 at 7:14 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
RE: ...so there is no doubt that Iran poses an extraordinary threat to Israel and Israel is always justified in making decisions that will provide for its security.
The voice of Zbigniew Brzezinski, Obama’s foreign affairs advisor and NWO agent, who handpicked Obama to sell their interests to the American Citizenry - watch very closely how this plays out, with ZB, Trilateral Commission Co-founder, handling Obama from the shadows ...
E.G. “The Trilateral Commission is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States. The Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power political, monetary, intellectual and ecclesiastical. What the Trilateral Commission intends is to create a worldwide economic power superior to the political governments of the nationstates involved. As managers and creators of the system, they will rule the future.” - U.S. Senator Barry Goldwater in his l979 book: With No Apologies.
Report thisBy mrmb, June 22 at 6:52 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
JBlack,
“"Barack Obama defends Israels concern about Irans extraordinary threat"”
Thats exactly my point!!! The entire political establishment of either party is bought and paid for by the zionists. Thats one of the main criticisms against Obama as a lot of people wrongly assumed that he will confront them or show independence from them. He proved he is no different from the rest.
Report thisBy JBlack, June 22 at 6:35 pm #
Barack Obama defends Israels concern about Iran’s “extraordinary threat”
June 21, 2008, 9:34 PM (GMT+02:00)
The US Democratic presidential contender made this comment about the reported Israeli air rehearsal for a possible attack on Iran: Without access to the actual detailed intelligence, I want to be careful about characterizing what was done and whether it was appropriate or not.” But, said Senator Barack Obama, the Jewish state was right to be concerned about the anti-Israel comments of the Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and about Tehrans support for Hizballah and Hamas. And so there is no doubt that Iran poses an extraordinary threat to Israel and Israel is always justified in making decisions that will provide for its security.
Report thisBy mrmb, June 22 at 2:13 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
International War Crimes Tribunal
United States War Crimes Against Iraq
Initial Complaint
Charging:
George Bush, J. Danforth Quayle, James Baker,
Richard Cheney, William Webster, Colin Powell,
Norman Schwarzkopf and Others to be named
With
Crimes Against Peace, War Crimes, Crimes Against
Humanity and Other Criminal Acts and High Crimes in Violation of the Charter of the United Nations,
International Law, the Constitution of the United States and Laws made in Pursuance Thereof.
http://deoxy.org/wc/warcrim2.htm
Report thisBy Double U, June 22 at 9:46 am #
Rus, your simpleton blather is headache-inducing.
Report thisBy Rus7355, June 22 at 7:09 am #
Cyrena,
“I know far, far, far more of the Iranian history, culture, customs, and politics than you can imagine”.
What you have proven is that you hold a very very very high opinion of yourself.
Report thisBy Rus7355, June 22 at 6:58 am #
Cyrena,
“WHY does Dick Bush wish to attack Iran, (other than that it was the plan all along for the PNAC) and why do you agree that this should happen, knowing that more millions of innocent civilians will be slaughtered, just as they have been in Iraq”?
I do not believe there is ample evidence to support the notion that President Bush or Vice President Cheney hold plans to invade Iran. That, Cyrena, is your opinion. There is quite a difference between evidence of a position and an opinion.
Your very fond of telling us how well researched you are. So why do you rely so heavily on your personal opinions? You present your opinions as if they are, in and of themselves, evidence of your positions. Is that how you do your research? Is that how you present your work for review? If I did that in my career I would quickly be dismissed as a professional.
I understand that what people say is rarely more important than why they say it.
People here on TruthDig may not fully understand how research, and the presentation of research, is actually conducted. I mean no disrespect to anyone in saying that. But unless one actually lives and works in that environment it would be difficult to appreciate how research is actually conducted and presented. That is how I know what you are and what you are not. You are not what you claim to be.
I do happen to know well how research is actually performed and presented in an unattached manner. I cannot present my opinion as evidence of anything.
You see, Cyrena, I am actually what you claim to be. That is how I know you are not.
Report thisBy cyrena, June 22 at 1:15 am #
..I implore you to take the time to talk to Iranians. You cant do your research on the Internet.,,
Well Russ, as Ive already explained to you, Ive talked to far, far, far more Iranians that you can possibly imagine, and I know far, far, far more of the Iranian history, culture, customs, and politics than you can imagine.
And, I dont much give a shit whether you believe me or not.
Now, you never did answer my question. WHY does your hero Dick Bush, wish to attack Iran and perpetrate MORE crimes against humanity than theyve already accomplished in Iraq>
Now I specifically don’t care for your intellectual and other dishonesty and perfidy. So please, this is a straight up question..WHY does Dick Bush wish to attack Iran, (other than that it was the plan all along for the PNAC) and why do you agree that this should happen, knowing that more millions of innocent civilians will be slaughtered, just as they have been in Iraq?
Now just a straight up answer will suffice. No need for the lies and the spin, since I don’t believe your bullshit anymore than you believe my credentials.
Report thisBy mrmb, June 21 at 11:59 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
elmysterio,
Great point about Fisk and I fully agree.
However we do have imperialist / zionist apologists and propagandists here like JBlack and Rus that like to rap themselves in the flag, and since they and their neo crazy leaders did such a great job of lying to themselves and to the rest of the country to get us in a war they just wanna make sure the rest of us ignorant people who r not patriotic and dont understand the great cause and obviously have treasonous tendencies are given a last chance to convert and see the light!!!
These people oppose all form of dissent and consider it treason and they got smoke coming out of their ears and nostrils and fire from their eyes and wish they could fully resurrect the gulag which they already have all over the planet (stalin would be proud) and send us all there for re-education and indoctrination.
If all else fails I think a rendition is in order for people like us!!! To where I dont know but as long as there is a dark cell and a few neo crazies or evangelists zionists run the place it will work.
Report thisBy elmysterio, June 21 at 11:23 pm #
Ummm… I thought this site was called “TRUTH dig”? If it’s about truth, what the heck is an article by Robert Fisk doing here? He’s repeating the lies right off the bat with “Iran threatening to destroy Israel"… That’s not true.
Report thisBy cyrena, June 21 at 9:53 pm #
Well waddaya know..speaking of the devil(s) and the creators of war and all of the destruction that automatically goes with it the war mongers are now trying to re-write the history of the thing that everyone knew was criminally barbaric before it happened.
Seems to fit right in here.
The Return of the Neocons
Thursday 19 June 2008
by: James Risen, The Washington Independent
Bush hawks aggressively working to rewrite accepted Iraq war history.
~ Ever since the Rumsfeld era at the Pentagon ended abruptly in the aftermath of the Democratic victory in the 2006 mid-term elections, the civilian hawks who ruled the Defense Dept. during the early years of the Iraq war have remained largely silent. They have not engaged publicly even as their culpability for the Iraq war’s myriad failures has congealed into accepted wisdom.
But for the Pentagon troika most identified with Iraq - former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz and former Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith - silence has not equaled happiness. It certainly has not meant acceptance of their fate at the hands of the many journalists, former generals and assorted ex-members of the Bush administration who have taken to the cable talk fests and the nation’s media outlets to reject and denounce them. Nor does it mean they walk the aisles at Barnes & Noble with equanimity while scanning shelves filled with books that lay the fault for George W. Bush’s failed presidency at their doorstep.
This anti-Pentagon historical narrative is straightforward and seems well established: Wolfowitz and Feith ran a neoconservative frat house while an arrogant, fiddling Rumsfeld roared against anyone who dared try to bring him the truth.
Read the rest at the link
http://www.truthout.org/article/the-return-neocons
At some point in the near future, these thugs are gonna be running for their lives. (if they dont manage a fatal destruction of the rest of us before that). Time is running out. They are running scared, because they know they can EXPECT to be called to account for their crimes, as soon as they lose access to the executive branch, and no longer have their own mafia protection solidified by control of our government. Just over 6 months left for them to scramble for whatever they think might save their asses from the tribunals that will surely be conducted, and the possible death penalty that might be a result.
So, rather than just get the hell out of dodge, (which is their only possible escape and even then, we could still catch em) theyre trying to rewrite the history of their own crimes. Just like Karl Rove always said..Theyre an Empire now, and so they make their OWN reality.
Mrmb..
Thanks much for your post #164627.
Your insight is excellent.
Report thisBy Rus7355, June 21 at 7:25 pm #
Ed Harges,
Who suggested Iranians wish us to liberate them by means of violent assault upon their country?
Report thisBy Ed Harges, June 21 at 7:04 pm #
Oh please. Rus7355 is not to be fathomed. Nobody denies the existence of liberal young Iranians. What is ludicrous is the neoconservative fantasy that liberal Iranians wish us to liberate them by means of violent assault upon their country.
Report thisBy mrmb, June 21 at 6:59 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Rus,
I think u realy miss the point.
Internal, domestic Iranian politics is none of our business. Actually we should stay the fuck away from everyones domestic politics.
No foreign entanglements, including the israeli version.
Actually Rus, I dont want a penny of my taxes going to israel, period!!!
Who the hell are we to tell everyone else what to do and how to behave and how to govern themselves.
The Iranians been around for well over 4000 years and they dont need advice from our bankrupt elite and political leaders. Let alone people like you.
We have a mess on our hands right here at home and I dont need to worry about a country 12000 miles away from me that has never done anything to us except to fight for their right of self determination and how they wanna live.
If they have internal problems (just like everyone else) I’m sure without our meddling and interference they will find their way in time. Thats called social, political, economic evolution, if we actually allow it to happen.
This quasi imperialistic attitude and notion that we decide that the shah was good for Iran and therefore we keep him there by torturing everyone who opposes him, and we decide that the revolution was bad for Iran and therefore we will do anything (immoral and illegal) to overthrow it is so absurd and dangerous that it has corrupted us.
Thats a criminal mindset and our elite are infected by it, time for surgery and clean up.
If the Iranians in diaspora are so unhappy then let them re-connect with people back home and find a solution to their problems. Else they can stay here and enjoy life.
So, quit acting like a soar looser because the revolutionaries threw us out of Iran and have formed an independent system of governance that displeases us. Good for them.
We dont own the ME and its resources, we dont belong there in an imperial manner either. And as long as we think this way and formulate policies accordingly we will be in trouble and the only thing thats a sure bet is that our problems are gonna multiply by a magnitude of 100 and more once another one or two ME countries go the way of Iran and free themselves from our domination.
If we were smart we would rely on soft power; diplomacy, trade, cultural exchanges, scientific exchanges, and etc.....
You will be amazed how well it works instead of going around invading countries, overthrowing their governments, supporting repressive regimes, shoving colonial agreements down their throats and when they oppose it then we send in the jackals to assassinate them. Enough is enough.
We are notorious for this type of policies all over the third world, and then when they get brave and put up a fight we get all bent out of shape and cry foul. We call them names and threaten them and etc.... We all know the scenario and the script!!!
God forbid, no-one has the right to oppose us. How dare they put up a fight. They should just roll over and die.
It aint happening man. Get it??? I take it the answer is a resounding NO!!!
Report thisBy Rus7355, June 21 at 6:47 pm #
Cyrena,
I simply do not trust or believe what you say. I am sorry, I simply don’t. You so clearly have a narrow and Western view of Iran. Your self proclaimed bona fide appear hollow to me. It’s not a pissing match. I just don’t care for your kind of intellectual dishonesty.
I implore you to take the time to talk to Iranians. You can’t do your “research” on the Internet.
Report thisBy cyrena, June 21 at 6:29 pm #
Russ7355,
I was doing my very best to be cordial and simply make a suggestion that I thought you might have overlooked. But you feel the need to indulge in petty pissing contests.
For the record russ, I dont get my information from the media as you suggest, in terms of what I think you mean the media to be. I dont watch television, if thats what youre suggesting, and havent in years. Im an academic Russ, a member of the UC system here in my own community, and the colleague I mentioned was one of many scholars here in that same community. She just happens to be Persian, and from Iran. This is a fortunate thing for us, as well as for her, since the restrictions for Iranian scholars studying here in the US are pretty onerous. Shes one of only a few.
To the extent that my information comes from the Internet, it is to access all of the digital libraries that are available though my academic access. So, youre assumptions are..as usual, incorrect. Meantime, I have traveled extensively in the Middle East and elsewhere, though it is correct to say that I have never been to Iran. (most of the surrounding nation states..yes, but not Iran).
My point in saying that Ahmadinejad was only ONE person, was to make it clear to you that Ahmadinejad does NOT speak for the entire political regime or the government of Iran. I know this Russ, because I have studied their legal and political structure..IN DEPTH. I have studied THEIR media, and I have studied THEIR cultural, and I have studied THEIR system of jurisprudence. Its what I do in my own studies, which are inclusive of comparative law, in the larger field of Law & Society. Ive explained this before, so I wont go into it again.
THAT was my point Russ, and I HAVE spoken to many, many, many, Iranian citizens, and I am well aware that 70% of Irans population is under the age of 30. Im also very well aware that they are far more terrified by the threats from our own crackpot president here in the US, than they are of the president that they elected themselves.
Contrary to your inference, anti-corruption was not the only thing that got Ahmadinejad elected. In reality, the Iranians feel that they have every right, (and they do) to modern technology, including a nuclear energy program. So, even those who did NOT vote for Ahmadinejad are supportive of his efforts in defying the US bully who is determined to prevent them from exercising the rights that they have as a sovereign nation state, and under the terms and agreements of the NPT.
Holding hands in public may indeed be something that some of the young people may want to do. That really is not at all what the US threats to Iran are about, nor is it the reason behind Ahmadinejads response. Even YOU cant possibly believe that! Then again, I guess it sounds really good to distract from the real issues, and that would be the determination of the current US regime to wipe Iran off the map!
Now why do you suppose that is Russ? Surely it doesnt have anything to do with holding hands in public, thought that might be difficult anyway, if Dick Bush bombs them all.
Report thisBy Rus7355, June 21 at 5:41 pm #
Cyrena,
I’m sorry but it’s just so obvious that you gather your information from the media and the Internet. You have no real experience. And you’re not talking to Iranians. You’re not trying to know Iranian domestic politics. You’re following a very Western, extremely narrow, imagine.
If you talk to 20 Iranians you’ll find that Ahmadinejad was elected on a platform of anti corruption. He was not campaigning in any context of being a foil to the United States. It’s simply incorrect to suggest that to be the case. I’m referring to the parts you call “understandable”. In fact outside of his Mayoral constituency most Iranians were unaware of his staunch global views. Most nationally knew him as a crime fighter.
I urge you to take the time to talk to Iranians. You’ll get a solid picture of how unpopular the Supreme Leader and, yes, Ahmadinejad truly are. The vast majority of Iranians do not like Ahmadinejad ‘s provocative speeches toward Israel or the West. I wish you could stop believing their is some great popular support for the Government in Iran.
Please ask your Iranian colleague to discuss the tens of millions of liberal social Iranians under the age of 20 (the bulk of the population) who mostly desire the ability to openly hold hands in public, listen to their own music, gain and education and have no allegiance to the “Revolution, OR a battle with Israel and/or the West.
Yes Ahmadinejad, one man, is the government sanctioned pubic face and voice of Iran. So what, you ask?
Report thisBy Rus7355, June 21 at 4:40 pm #
Cyrena,
Lincoln, Gandhi, Churchill, Marx, Mussolini, Iraq’s Hussein, Tutu, and Kim Jung Il and Hitler were all and are a singular person. And the number “one person” most used here on TruthDig as evidence of Bush’s failure, Osama bin Laden is but one individual.
Over 2/3 of the people who planned the 9/11 attacks are dead or have been captured. You have repeatedly dismissed that statistic as meaningless and have made bin Laden, one man, significant to completing many of your arguments.
If George Washington had not returned to his farm after a second term (refusing the offer of President for life) the United States would be a much different place today. One man.
But even in that you miss the point of your own argument. The Supreme Leader in Iran allows the elected President his pulpit. If Ahmadinejad’s oratory were found to be terribly disagreeable he would likely be made to scale it back or cease. Somehow I suspect you already know that but will not say it openly as it would “wipe your argument off the map”. I’m sorry. I meant to say your argument would “calapse”.
I understand you will continue to defend the words and actions of all others at the expense of the United States. You will condemn the American President his tough words but will continue defending said same from Iran. You make no apologies regarding your bias against the United States. You’ll go so far as to ignore eight years of warnings from President Bill Clinton (before Ahmadinejad) in order to focus on one U.S. President, ("one man") George Bush.
Anyhow you missed the point. What I wrote last was not a threat assessment. It was more of an literary critique of the elected President of the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Report thisBy cyrena, June 21 at 2:05 pm #
Russ7355 a question in response to your comment here:
You may find yourself hard pressed to believe that Ahmadinejad means Israel no harm.
Russ, for the sake of argument, lets assume that Ahmadinejads RHETORIC, (I agree that he is a colorful figure) actually meant something. To something like this, Im inclined to ask, So what?
Because, in REALITY Russ, Ahmadinejad has NO POWER to make ANY DECISIONS that would or could mean harm to Israel. Or, I can answer very simply and diplomatically by repeating, verbatim, what one of my Iranian colleagues (and Farsi instructor) says to the very subject of Ahmadinejad:
He is ONE person.
That point seems to be missed in all the discussion of the rhetoric, and its various translations. That point is this: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is the democratically elected President of Iran. What that means is that more Iranians voted for him than those who did not, or voted for someone else. One explanation for the Iranian citizen sentiments in voting for such a hardliner and conservative, is that groups of peoples of sovereign states have a tendency to lean toward the hardline/conservative ideologies when they feel threatened, for whatever the reasons.
If you remember correctly, Ahmadinejad was NOT elected until 2005, nearly 5 years after The Coup that put Dick Bush in charge of the US, and long after GW had initiated his OWN rhetoric against Iran. This included speeches, and lectures (from GWB) to the Iranian population, that basically insulted and threatened them on a continuing basis. Stuff like calling them part of an Axis of Evil was already a habit for GW, long before they voted for Ahmadinejad. So, does that give you an idea of how or why the Iranian people may have decided upon him? I only mention it because this is exactly what was suggested for consideration by a prominent expert in Middle Eastern Studies, here at my own academic institution. In short, the Iranians voted for a counter to the threats of the US. Considering the Iranian history, and the well known and long term US intervention into Iranian politics, this is not an unusual response from the Iranian people.
Be that as it may. He is STILL only one person-!
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (Persian: محمود احمدینژا 583;, Mahmud Ahmadineâd mæhˈmuːd æhmædiːneˈʒɒːd (helpinfo); born October 28, 1956)[1][2] is the sixth and current President of the Islamic Republic of Iran. He became president on August 6, 2005 after winning the 2005 presidential election by popular vote.[3] Prior to becoming president, Ahmadinejad served as mayor of Tehran, a governor of Kurdistan, Ardabil, and served in the Iran-Iraq War, as a member of Army of the Guardians of the Islamic Revolution. He is the highest directly elected official in the country; however, according to Article 113[4] of Constitution of Iran, he has much less power than the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who is the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of Iran and has the final word in all aspects of foreign and domestic policies.[4][5][6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad
So, what difference does it make WHAT he supposedly intends in respect to Israel?
Report thisBy Rus7355, June 21 at 1:33 pm #
Mrmb,
If I could get you to look deeper than Counterpunch you’ll find that the translations of Ahmadinejad’s speeches are grealty in dispute. There are a great many Farsi translators who disagree with your interpretation. In fact many Farsi scholars disagree strenuously. Even scholars like Cole, quoted from Counterpunch, states that Ahmadinejad Oct. 05 speech should be translated as:
“The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).”
According to Cole, “Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to ‘wipe Israel off the map’ because no such idiom exists in Persian”. Instead, “He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse”.
Collapse means an end. No matter how we turn it around and look at it.
In a June 11, 2006 analysis of the translation controversy, New York Times deputy foreign editor Ethan Bronner stated that Ahmadinejad had said that Israel was to be wiped off the map. After noting the objections of critics such as Cole and Steele, Bronner said: “But translators in Tehran who work for the president’s office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad’s statement, including a description of it on his website, refer to wiping Israel away.’ .......’it is hard to argue that, from Israel’s point of view, Mr. Ahmadinejad poses no threat. Still, it is true that he has never specifically threatened war against Israel. So did Iran’s president call for Israel to be ‘wiped off the map’? It certainly seems so. Did that amount to a call for war? That remains an open question.”
Mrmb,
Why not take a copy of the October 26, 2005 speech to your nearest university? But also bring with you five or six of the most incendiary speeches by Ahmadinejad toward, not only Israel, but the West as a whole. See if you can have his words read to you so that you can hear them yourself? You may find yourself hard pressed to believe that Ahmadinejad means Israel no harm.
Report thisBy JBlack, June 21 at 12:04 pm #
mrmb, Speak as an adult. Carry yourself as an adult. Be an adult.
Report thisBy jack, June 21 at 1:39 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
By JBlack, June 20 at 3:10 pm #
...The truth pierces like an arrow.
...and so it does...forget “Blame America” as in Joe Six Pack et al...we’re all cannon fodder and you know it - let’s focus on the New World Oligarchy, the real criminals who set the punters at each other’s throats, faction by faction (or so it appears) - the progeny of Abraham who may not see eye to eye on everything, but don’t really want to fight and die like the NWO wants them to do.
Notice how whenever peace begins to break out in Palestine, a suicide bomber shows up, or there’s a few rockets here, a kidnapping there - right on cue, the suicide bomber is always identified, almost immediately and the parents are often shocked, not the kid they raised...poor kid, sat in the wrong seat on the bus (the one with a charge planted under it).
Here’s a factoid that rarely comes up: Israel has funded Hamas - well, so what you might say, the CIA has funded Al Queda, primarily through their ISI toadies; and all those Madrassas, mythically preaching hatred for the West...best patsie schools money can buy...ginning up legends on demand.
If anyone doubts the GWOT is not GLADIO redux and Islamofascism is not Monolithic Communism recast, on the subject, please read Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed - http://nafeez.mediamonitors.net/
Here’s a question for you, JBlack, after Air Force One left Sarrasota, flying for over an hour without fighter coverage and while receiving a serious threat, in a code-encrusted phone call to the Secret Service, which of the NWO elites was waiting to receive GW Bush at Offut (US Nuclear HQ) on 9/11?
Report thisBy mrmb, June 21 at 1:17 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Since Ahmadinejad’s supposedly verbal attack on the zionist state of israel has been mis-quoted I think its not a bad idea to check an excellent article on how Ahmadinejad’s words have been mis-translated and twisted by US (imperialist / zionist) politicians and media:
http://counterpunch.org/tilley08282006.html
Report thisBy mrmb, June 21 at 12:14 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
JBlack,
I know I wasted my time explaining things to you in the last two threads.
The last thing I am gonna say to folks like u is that when the republican party gets demolished (war mongers and criminals) this coming election year and we the people also get rid of similar type of jack asses in the democratic party the next two or 3 elections and open up the political space for mentally stable men and women then its people like you and Rus that need to be thrown out of the DOD, State, CIA, media and other places so we can actually have a chance at saving this country and by extension the planet.
You should go and enjoy bill o’reilly, christian zionists and their like, more your type!!!
Report thisBy JBlack, June 20 at 3:20 pm #
mrmb, Speak as an adult. Carry yourself as an adult. Be an adult.
You people amaze me with this stuff. Just pick up a few history books. We’ll discuss this in a few months.
Report thisBy JBlack, June 20 at 3:10 pm #
Ed, The truth pierces like an arrow. It will often hurt.
And still you can’t bring yourself to openly talk about the dead and tortured Americans at the hands of the Iranian government.
And to be very clear here. I never once advocated war with Iran. You alone kept seeing the word “war” in what I write. You made it into a zero sum game all on your own. Inhere lies the true danger. Not from anything I write or advocate.
I advocated a much larger picture over what you myopically attempt to claim is history. You presented one side of a multi-faceted history of relations between Iran and the U.S… A history that has Iran the hapless victim and the U.S. nothing but greedy and evil. You don’t know history, Ed. You have a belief system.
So I say to those who display the same behavior; Blame....America....First...and....Always.
Report thisBy mrmb, June 20 at 2:10 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I am simplifying this for the morons like JBlack and Russ and ......
Acts or actions taken by US and Iran. These are proven historical acts not allegations and I will only name the obvious so these conservative morons dont get confused:
1- US overthrow of Mossadegh government.
2- 25 years of US and israeli support of repression (Shah) and taking an entire country hostage and plundering it.
3- Creation of SAVAK and support, and training of torturers in Iran and beyond.
4- Support of military crackdown during the 1978 uprisings that lead to thousands of death.
I am not mentioning other uprisings in the 60’s that was brutally put down with full American support.
5- Instigating internal strife and civil war after the revolution in order to overthrow the revolution.
6- Assassination and bombing campaigns all over Iran from 1979-1981 in order to overthrow the revolution.
7- Instigating Saddam’s attack and war of aggression against Iran in order to overthrow the revolution.
8- Supplying chemical, biological and nuclear technology to Iraq and supporting Saddam’s use of chemical weapons against Iran and Iraqi civilians.
Above is just a few war crimes conducted by US government going back to 1950’s with full israeli participation.
Here is a list of American allegations against Iran:
1- Take over of the American embassy for 444 days.
2- Supporting the Lebanese when they were invaded in 1982 by the israelis with full American support and blessing.
3- American allegations that Iran was behind the marine barracks bombings.
4- American allegations that Iran was behind the embassy bombings in Lebanon.
5- American allegations that Iran was behind the khobar tower bombings in Saudi Arabia.
There are other imperialist / zionist allegations against Iran, all of which are not proven yet they persist in our corporate owned media which is dominated by imperialist / zionist mouthpieces.
When you compare the acts and actions listed above I think it becomes very clear who the guilty party is.
I rest my case.
I am sure neo cons, neo liberlas, fools and imperial delusionists of all type like JBlack and Russ will continue with their blind hatred of Iran and neglect to look at our governments actions. Dont expect anything less!!!
I do have good news and that is Ramsey Clark has initiated or is about to initiate war crimes charges against little george and little dick in Hauge.
God bless Ramsey Clark!!!
Report thisBy Ed Harges, June 20 at 12:32 pm #
By JBlack, June 20 at 12:24 pm:
Your mechanical repetition of the little canned phrase “Blame....America....First!” is asinine. Do you imagine it’s some sort of witty signoff? Your childishly automatic resort to this in each and every post only shows that you are incapable of real discourse.
Report thisBy JBlack, June 20 at 12:24 pm #
Cyrena, “Moreover, I have NEVER claimed that such threats exist”. <-- That is precisely my point, Cyrena. How you keep missing the very point I do not know. You can’t think of a single example of Iran being a threat to anyone. How in the world can you claim to be paying attention?
Ed, Where have you seen me imply that we should go to war with Iran? You keep claiming it comes from me but, yet, it never does. You see what you want to see. You see?
Neither of you could even imagine mentioning the 241 Marines killed in Lebanon. Or the Khobar Towers. And not one mention of U.S. hostages held in Iran for 444 days. There’s more. Much more. Can you fill in the remaining seven blanks? Clearly you can’t even bring yourselves to think that Iran is anything but a victim. Incredible!
Each of your next replies are predictable. A. Iran was not involved in those things. B. Iran has every right to kill and/or hold Americans hostage. C. You’ll both find some rationale to blame Israel or the U.S. for Iran’s actions.
You two are incredible. You can’t stand the U.S.. It colours your every thought and emotion.
Blame....America....First....and....Always!
Report thisBy Ed Harges, June 20 at 12:06 pm #
Cyrena: Also: could it be that JBlack counts as a “threat” to “The West” the fact that the Iranians have stated, with wholly justified anger, that if Israel or the US initiates war against Iran, Iran will retaliate?
I guess that’s technically a “threat”, right? How dare they!
Report thisBy Ed Harges, June 20 at 11:50 am #
By cyrena, June 20 at 11:14 am:
Perhaps JBlack thinks we can’t distinguish between expressions of hostility and actual threats? I mean, no one here is denying that “I’m-a-dinner-jacket” doesn’t LIKE the Israeli regime, for example.
But is Israel, really, “the West”?
And anyway, are we supposed to go to war anytime someone expresses animosity towards “The West” as JBlack defines it?
And does he have any comcept of the axiomatic principle that when you claim the existence of something, it’s up to YOU to provide the evidence?
Report thisBy cyrena, June 20 at 11:14 am #
Ok Russ, and JBlack, lets break this down step by step, to see if you all can even try to get this.
Russ writes this:
As you yourself were witness to both Cyrena and Ed put words in your post that did not exist.
But, that did not happen. So, lets go back to the original question that JBlack posted.
Ed, Cyrena and mrmb: can each of you give us 10 examples of real Iranian threats toward the West? Because if you cannot then you all have no idea what it is you each speak of .
And then he goes on and on with more insults and all of the rest. But, that seems to be the question. Read it again. He does in fact repeat this again and again. Any sane person reading this, would read it as him asking for examples (10 of them) or real Iranian threats toward the West.
The responses from Ed and myself have been the same. In speaking for myself, I have unequivocally stated that such threats DO NOT EXIST.
Moreover, I have NEVER claimed that such threats exist. I have never read a post from Ed Harges that claims such threats exist. In other words, JBlack has set up a straw man argument, for the purposes of..well, we dont know. I mean, we could try to guess but thats like trying to interpret the illogic of insanity, and I dont pretend to be able to do that.
But, the bottom line is. Iran has NEVER threatened the West, nor have we suggested anywhere on any of these threads that Iran has EVER threatened the West.
Let me repeat that. Neither Ed Harges or I have EVER claimed that Iran has ever directed ANY threats, (real or otherwise) to the West. (meaning the US and/or Europe). Since we have NEVER suggested anything like that, WHY would JBlack ask us to give examples of such a thing? Why does JBlack want us to gives examples of claims that WE HAVE NEVER MADE, about a non-reality?
Let us repeat this again. Iran has never threatened the West.
Iran has never threatened the west.
Neither Ed Harges, mrmb, or I, have ever SAID that Iran has threatened the west.
Ergo, JBlack is on crack, if he expects us to give examples of something that doesnt exist, and we have never claimed existed.
Now the question for JBlack and Rus777 is this:
WHY IS THE US PREPARING TO ATTACK IRAN, when Iran has NEVER THREATENED THE WEST, OR ANYBODY ELSE?
Thats your assignment for the rest of the summer. Tell us why the US has been planning (for over a decade) to attack Iran, (as they have Iraq), when there have NEVER been any threats from Iran toward the West?
Report thisBy JBlack, June 20 at 9:33 am #
Ed, can you or not answer a simple question?
Give us 10 real threats from Iran that we can all see and verify. Show us you can think past Blaming....America....First.
Report thisBy JBlack, June 20 at 9:31 am #
What’s truly amazing, Ed, is that you can’t seem to back up your opinions.
You’re great at spouting. But you fall apart at the simplest of questioning.
Yes. Amazing is the right word. Truly is another good word. Truly amazing.
Report thisBy Ed Harges, June 20 at 9:01 am #
By JBlack, June 20 at 5:44 am:
Totally without substance. Amazing.
Report thisBy jack, June 20 at 9:00 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
TO: Rus7355 & JBlack - America is not to blame - we’re all cannon fodder to the New World Oligarchy - you too - you pay as we all do for a war machine that serves them - we pay with everything from money to blood - we are nothing to them - nothing
Report thisBy Rus7355, June 20 at 8:21 am #
JBlack,
These people you are trying to reason with will not answer your questions. They quite literally don’t know how. As you can see they are perplexed by the very questions you pose. They have no idea how to examine the actual questions. In fact if you read back over their posts it’s clear that it’s not your words they are seeing. It’s only the characterizations of you they see. Frustrating, I know.
These people actually believe in the mythical and evil “neo-cons” in the White House. Cheney is a “new conservative” although he’s always been conservative. The same goes for Rumsfeld and Dr. Rice and others. These people they point at are not “neo” (new) conservatives at all. But here on TruthDig it’s only the characterizations that matter. And today Neo now mean evil in their minds. So now everyone who agrees with anything from the Bush administrations is labeled a “neo-con”. It’s quiet rediculous.
As you yourself were witness to both Cyrena and Ed put words in your post that did not exist. That is how they see you. They do the very same to me. It’s not my words they are reading. It’s some characterization they hold in their minds about what they believe I am attempting to convey. It’s the same with how they see the world. To these people it’s the United States at fault for the worlds ills. And every tyrant and despot, every real threat to the United States, draws their collective praise and pity.
And you are absolutely correct. In these people’s minds it’s about finding ways to blame America first. In every current world event they look toward one singular idea. How is America at fault? How can an argument be made to place the blame away from any other nations actions? The United States is the cause every time.
You see, Jblack, the questions you ask are not questions they have ever asked themselves. You’ll not get what you’ve asked for in prior postings here. That is, reasonable answers or a reasonable and respectful conve