Well, now that I got that out of my system I remeber part of what I wanted to post regarding the article above and the last few comments that were not R & R’s.
Baghdad also used to have a form of open democracy some five hundred to one thousand or so years ago. Town hall meetings were held once or twice a week. The local merchants who were not out on caravan would preside and anyone who came could ask them questions regarding the ways they had made their fortunes and other lesser questions...pretty much any thing on their mind.
Their is actually a small book called ‘The Merchants of Baghdad’ which relates various Q & A sessions from that era. A most informative book.
To bad that the guy they propped up in office after the coup a few years ago couldn’t do that. I’m not talking about Baghdad either.
As to my third point. If the Bohemian Grove/Tri-latereal Commission/Oil/Puppet Masters or whatever cartel was responsible for that last coup is still around does anyone out there believe they won’t do it again...and again...and again?
Thomas Jefferson once said something to the effect that if the people of this new Republic ever deem
their government has become corrupt then the people have the perfect right to over-throw that government.
What the hell are we waiting for? I want my country back.

I’ve been away from this site for almost a year. I just read this piece from Vidal and before posting a comment I always try to read the other comments. Goodness gracious, ya’ll, I felt like I was reading rants & raves on craig’s list!
Now I can’t remember what I wanted to post. LOL
Reminds me of what we call the L1011 syndrome. Remember the Jet-Blue L1011 that went down over the swamps outside Miami? The investigation determined that what caused the horrible crash started when a warning light came on in the cock-pit. The co-pilot couldn’t find the problem so the navigator began helping him as the pilot turned off the auto-pilot to manually control the plane. When the nav. & the co-pilot couldn’t find the problem the pilot joined in out of concern. In the ensuing panic he forgot that no one was flying the plane...the plane went down. The investigation also found that the only thing wrong with the plane was the damn light; the system it indicated was mal-functioning was perfectly all right!
Moral of the story: Don’t let the small stuff devert your attention from what is important...ya’ll.
[Jet Blue recovered from almost total financial failure due to that crash by changing their name.]

The initiative process in states like CA entail a form of direct democracy.  But with a corporate media which fails to perform the information dissemination function for which the Framers gave us the First Amendment and with the ability of corporations to conduct propaganda campaigns via expensive 30-second sound bite ads, the value of direct democracy as a means for public control of policy has been substantially diminished.

While it lasted, about 500 B. C. to its suppression by Macedonians in 322 B. C., Athens had the first direct democracy.  Participation was limited to males who had completed their military service and whose parents were both native Athenians, but without regard to economic or social class.  That limited it to about 30,000 of a population of at most 300,000, or roughly 10%.

Other instances of direct democracy were the town hall meetings characteristic of early colonial New England in America.  Participation included all “white men.”

FYI,

Not sure, someone asked if there was ever a true Democracy, my little bit historical knowledge seems to recall the City of Athens 500 BC was a direct democracy?

Lefeller,

I meant to respond to this yesterday..mostly because it was (as usual) an excellent post, but also because this part made me laugh out loud..

“...this reminds me of a friend of mine who used to call up the time lady and make obscene phone calls, which caused me question why he did so, I asked he answer was she does not know what she is talking about...”

All you can say to something like that is...OOOKKKK..whatever you say good buddie.

The time lady, eh? Yep...I’ve known a few to do the same thing. Many years ago, not long after I’d moved to Texas, I remember asking some people why they didn’t utilize their turn signals when changing lanes or making turns while driving. (usually at a minimum of 75 mph). I was a pet peeve for me, because I’m a conscientious driver, and so if I know somebody needs to get over into the lane that I’m in, or out of it, or whatever, then I’ll respond appropriately by giving them space, or whatever. Same with turning a corner right? Just some indication of what the other drivers are doing. Besides, ISN’T THAT WHAT PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO DO? I was sure that didn’t apply ONLY in California, because I’d seem normal people driving the same way in other places as well. Don’t ALL cars come with turn signals, no matter what state they’re purchased in?

Now this was an extra bad problem because of the speed that they all maintained. I mean, in bumper to bumper traffic, they did their best to maintain at least 70 mph, MINIMUM. So of course you wanna know where they’re gonna switch lanes and hop right in front of you. Or...cause a hair raising screech from behind.

Anyway, I asked this one old dude, and he told me that the reason he didn’t use any signals while driving, was because he didn’t want anybody ‘knowin’ his business’. OOOOKKK for him too. Then I asked a lady that I worked with (safety related stuff too, required driving airport equipment) why SHE didn’t use any turn signals while driving her own vehicle on public roads and highways. She said, “Oh, I always look around and make sure I have plenty of room before I change lanes.”

Now, maybe that’s not quite as bad as making obscene phone calls to the time lady, but still. And I guess you’re right. Social retardation, (and maybe a dose of mental retardation too) seems to be as good an answer as any I suppose.

But ya know what? Seems to me like there are a whole lot more mentally retarded people around now, then there used to be. And the end result is that the mental illness of some, can and do frequently terrorize everyone else.

Just look at Washington DC. How did it happen?

lol...cyrena, i’ll end this “obsession” that i have with u by not posting again at TD as long as you’re here.  and that’s a promise.  have a good life, girl

amon, i see your point. thanks. i deliberately left out that first sentence as irrelevant. i don’t like that stuff either. i hoped to make a larger point than an address to jg, so i probably shouldn’t have named her.

i too think i have gotten and given about as much i can on this commentary. it’s been very good, the comments have been for the most part thought provoking. thanks to everyone and i’ll see you on other topics around td. xoxox

moineau,

Always enjoy your comments.

Comments from your consoler reminded me of my dad, when he was teaching me how to be a carpenter, he told me “there are no rules” of course he was referring to carpentry, but it could be a metaphor for life.

Hate has the support of blindness, making very easy to digest for those filled with it.

Today in Iraq they are trying to set up an election, and the comments from different people in Iraq was interesting.  People from all sides said, if the elections do not go as we feel they should, then we will not honor the election.  Sounds like someone is not going to be happy?

Yes, I feel that TD does provide an opportunity to express our opinions with different degrees of agreement or disagreement as posters wish. As you mentioned, I feel disagreement can be healthy for open discussion and developing enlightenment, how else can one evolve and use reason?

Amon Drool,

What’s up with you anyway? Can we try to figure this out? You claim that YOU do not have access to all of my or Jersey Girl, or anyone else’s posts, but as it so happens, I DO. I at least have access to my own. In fact, I keep copies of every single comment that I post on TD, AS WELL AS THOSE THAT ARE RELEVANT TO ME, regardless of whom has posted them.

Now what we (or at least you and I) know from these posts, is that you’ve spent the past several weeks ON MY CASE, bashing and bad mouthing me for really NO REASON that anyone can think of…including me. What you’ve written in this most recent post, is a literal repeat of things that you’ve written in the past, and they ALL amount to personal attacks against me.

After initially trying to ignore you, or basically just avoid getting involved in any details with you, by NOT TAKING YOUR BAIT, I eventually realized that I’d have to respond as respectfully as I could, but that hasn’t worked either.  You seem to have some sort of an obsession with me Amon, and at this point, it’s become noticeable to more than just me. That should be apparent to you from the comments you’ve received from other posters, as a result of your most recent bashings. This isn’t good Amon. It’s really very bad.

In short, these attacks against me are unwarranted. I’ve never insulted you, and while you claim to be ‘irritated’ by some things that I’ve posted here, none of it has been directed at you –personally- so why have YOU chosen to be ‘irritated’?

Amon, while I have numerous posts *from you* that would certainly categorize as *bigoted* both racist and misogynistic, I have NOT ever accused you of such. YOU have admitted to possibly harboring such feelings yourself, but I have never suggested it.

So, let’s work this out NOW, Amon, because you’ve long since crossed this line, and it’s time for you tell all of us, why you have this ‘problem’ with me personally, and what you think it’s going to take for you to get over it.

Please, let us ALL know that Amon. Until you can muster up the courage to deal with issues like the 60 year old man that you claim to be, please stop these typical tactics of sneaky, devious and underhanded perfidy that resemble that of mean spirited gossipy old hag. You claim that you take offense to my making a note of this stuff, but exactly what the hell do you expect? My comments are RESPONSES to you (and previously the beer doctor, which is what seemed to get you going on this, so maybe you and the beerdoc are one and the same?) I don’t know.

But, let’s get this worked out Amon, because I’m pretty tired of you bad mouthing me in each and every post that you make on this site, in the underhanded tacky way that you employ, instead of directing your complaints specifically to me.

I look forward to hearing from you...on this PUBLIC forum, since that’s where you’ve been showing your ass all along.

moineau...i’m feeling a bit foolish here.  i keep on saying i’m gonna take a break from posting at TD and then u post something which draws me in.
in this case, it’s your 2 part post to jersey girl.  i do agree with u in telling her that she probably won’t be finding nirvana on any blog out there.  i wouldn’t worry about her becoming a hardcore ideologue...she doesn’t seem like the SLA or squeaky fromm type to me. but i can see her reason for getting away from TD.  that reason being: why deal with cyrena if u don’t have to.

look at your 6/28-5:24pm post.  u quote a paragraph from cyrena with some wisdom in it.  at the end u approvingly nod in agreement saying “that’s the gist of it.” but look at the first sentence: “Another difference is that you have a visceral and very emotionally motivated hate for Obama.” HUH??  i don’t have access to all jg’s posts on this thread, but i feel most of us would agree that her case against obama stemmed from his falling far short of a kucinich/progressive point of view.  cyrena’s saying that it was basically visceral and emotional is irritating at best and personally insulting at worst.  now, u may think i’m making a mountain out of a molehill by inflating this one sentence.  i’ve been at TD for 5 mo’s and, believe me, this is standard procedure for cyrena.  when people make a case against obama, cyrena attempts to knockdown their argument(sometimes she does), but then she’ll go on to say that she sees thru them and that their REAL problem is either an emotional one or an ideological(racist) one.

so, if jg decides to leave...fine.  i like her passion and her i-don’t-need-this-shit attitude.

You’re beyond hope and change...which is why Obama is just fine by you.

No Max, he’s not ‘just fine’ by me, because that would mean that I blindly agree with every position he takes. I don’t.

He’s just the best HOPE Americans have had in a very long time.

“That Obama is so clearly of that legacy is “maddening” only when you are trying to change opposing forces. The only successful solution, is to walk away from it and take that energy and put it into the world you really want. That is where change begins and continues.”

can’t one do both?

cyrena,

You’re beyond hope and change...which is why Obama is just fine by you.

pt 2
a case in point: jews and arabs. for many among them, the hatred is so ripe and profound as to wish genocide upon each other. my hope for peace between israelis and palestinians is shattered every time i venture into reader comments on ha’aretz and now the jerusalem post. as long as there are so many willing to raise a gun, a sword or such wicked words, peace will be impossible. and that’s sad when so many in israel and palestine have realized that peace is what they really want and need. but i guess you have to hit bottom to get there.

so i say to jersey girl, stop! don’t go! don’t fall into the trap of the ideologue. stop talking with the words of the greenwald set and listen to (read) the diversity of ideas on sites like truthdig. it’s true that the content will be more moderate, that, in fact, some compromises may have to be made in order to have results we can all live with.

for example, perhaps a jewish family will have to leave the home they’ve made for twenty years. that home holds all the memories of the family, the children; pets are buried in the garden. and a palestinian family may not be able to return to the town where its ancestors lived and worked the land for centuries.

hard stuff. but if you think about it, we all have a choice right here and now. let’s not join the ideologues of history who shot themselves in their own foot, lived with arrogance, and ultimately condemned the other, raging all the way to war.

amon said at the end of his letter that he didn’t think the more radical progressives would condemn to death us more moderate progressives for voting for obama. well, i’m not so sure it was such a “stupid” way of ending; in a way it’s already happening over at the comments section of greenwald. it’s beginning to look a lot like ha’aretz. my fear is that it will end up looking like the jersalem post.

i had a counselor once who said to me that there is no “one way”. those words were some of the best counsel i have ever had. and it’s this “one way”, this cynical “one way” that ultimately leads to hatred and war. just as there is no “one way” there is no “one future” we can read in the tea leaves. we need to stay open to “possibility” and i sincerely hope we can approach the possible together.

pt 1
good post, leefeller, i couldn’t agree more.

i’ve been reading a blog that is new to me, glenn greenwald and reader comments that follow. i decided not to post and get into that fight; however… some thoughts.

it’s a lot nastier there than here because there is little to no balance from inclusion of other viewpoints. while i am all for filibustering the fisa legislation, there are other points that glenn and his bloggers make that i strongly take issue with, but if one dares post an argument there, he or she is sure to be viciously attacked. even among those that agree, the stress level is palpable. i’ve learned that negativity takes a lot of energy.

last night i was doing some searches and wound up on the jerusalem post. now, i’ve been to ha’aretz before and have been shocked by a hatred i didn’t even know could exist among human beings. perhaps they have forgotten how to be human beings but, i swear, those people are threatening to kill each other. and kill other people too. it’s disheartening.

however, the jerusalem post gets the prize for the most hatred ever expressed on a public website. the posters on those articles are in complete sync with one another and, if another view is expressed, that person is sure to be called every name in the book with an almost competitive attitude among the throng as to who can be the most cruel, violent or racist. and there are graphic threats of violence.

jersey girl says that she is through here and going to a “better” blog. i want to say, stop! that’s not a solution. but it’s actually worse than that. cyrena talked about cynicism, and i think that’s how cynicism starts, surrounding yourself with one viewpoint or ideology until you are convinced that there is a war on with us against them and you arm yourself with the professions of your fellow ideologues and raise the sword in the name of the one way, the one truth, the groupspeak, in the name of the righteous. in fact, you’ll go as far as hope for the worst to happen in order to see the official outcome and say, see? we knew it! that’s just how they are! (i use you generically here.)

We can debate that until the cows come home. There is no guarantee of anything. Did you know that G.W. Bush was going to invade Iraq and occupy both Afganistan and Iraq for most of his 2 terms? If so what in his first POTUS campaign would have led you to that conclusion?

Max,

You are correct in saying that there is no guarantee of anything. That is a no-brainer, and we don’t have debate that. Actually, we don’t have to debate much at all, because I’m fully aware of your ‘purpose’ here, and I’m sure you know that I am.

Your sensationalism and hyperbole is intentionally splattered in each and every one of your posts, to provide distractions and create impressions that have no connection to anything.

….A history of a blood bath in LATIN AMERICA that McSame and Obama will

*CLEARLY ADVANCE*??????????????????

You’re full of it Max. Many may be fooled, but am not. Your tricks are as old as dirt.

The only thing I did NOT know that Dick Bush would do, was the treasonous attack on 9/11. That took me completely by surprise. I DID know, that once they went into Afghanistan AND Iraq, that it would be forever. Yes. I *did* know that was there plan. I’ve already told you this. I lived under the Dick Bush regime in Texas. I knew very well what they were capable of. And, if anyone had paid any attention to the fact that Dick Cheney assigned himself to be the shrub’s VP, that would have been your indication that the never ending wars would be a cornerstone of the take-over. The only part of it that has surprised me, (and it now seems so very long ago) was the false flag attack on 9/11.

So, every time you drop in with more bullshit, I will probably take note of it. This issue with your so definitive statement that McSame and Obama will ‘clearly advance’ a history of blood bathing in Latin America is just one of them. And, I’ve also told you before, that this is how you give yourself away. You make RIDICULOUS claims, rather than staying within the boundaries of some measure of credibility, and you’re always all over the map. You jump from one ridiculous statement to another, and they never have any connection.

These are straw men Max. That’s it. You might get away with it for a certain amount of time, particularly as people come and go from this site. It just doesn’t happen to work with me.

I didn’t say that introducing impeachment resolutions was a “waste of time” Michael Shaw, only that they will go nowhere.  To the extent that they make the administration malfeasance a matter of public record, they serve a purpose.  However, the idea that they will result in the removal from office of either Dick or Bush is fantasy.  The prospect of a President Cheney upon removal of Bush is not remotely funny.  The reality that there would be someone of the radical conservative right in office until January, 2008, whether one or both of them are removed, makes all this an exercise in futility, as far as any practical outcome.

Do people actually believe that somehow both would simultaneously go, to be replaced by next-in-line Speaker Pelosi?  Poppycock!  All palaver notwithstanding, the best hope of “regime change” in the United States is an orderly November election and transfer of power come January.  No excuse should be given for Bush to declare a national emergency and suspend the November presidential elections.  Given his flaunting of the Constitution so far, that is not outside the realm of possibility, sadly.  The way McClone has been subsuming his fairly moderate and often reasonable positions to those of Bush and company lately, he would probably go along with it.

Michael Shaw,

While I think you are a thoughtful and committed progressive, I must disagree with view of the Democratic Party.

First, this Party has had moments, very brief as the oldest Party in US history, of progressivism. It was a proponent of slavery and has a history at the Presidential level of presiding over more wars and conflics than the other War Party. (This is by no means, as I’m sure you know by now an endorsement for the atrocious warmongering Repugs.)

But we need to be honest, or at least read some of the history before we can run with mythology as truth. The narrative of the Democratic Party is just as strongly (more so? perhaps) bluedog than Northeastern/West Coast Liberal). Remember George Wallace during the peak of “liberalism” in the Dem Party. He was an incredible racist/bigoted force as a Dem and Presidential candidate. And he’s no exception but nearly the rule.

I’m not denying that there are progressives who have found a kind of home in the Dem Party, but it is more of a blacksheep home of convenience.

You can not take back what has never been yours, is what I’m trying to say. There is no born-again FDR Party. JFK was not progressive. LBJ, while domestically progressive, was an at uber-warmonger, the Progressive (ex-Princton Pres) Woodrow Wilson not only marched this country into the malstrom of WWI but rounded up Germans, and progressives and put them in jail. German citizens were lynched on a regular basis, all pamphlets were confiscated by the Feds, all under his proclamation!

The endless war and destruction world-wide was done mostly under Dem regimes.

I think that the illusions you (I once had) and other have about a progressive Dem Party has been the illusions of many who have come before you. Just read the history of all the very progressive (when this country had a strong socialist and progressive populace with a surging labor union) attempts to change the course of this country through the duopoly that in the end is on another course.

That Obama is so clearly of that legacy is “maddening” only when you are trying to change opposing forces. The only successful solution, is to walk away from it and take that energy and put it into the world you really want. That is where change begins and continues.

cyrena,
“What continues to amaze me is your crystal ball that allows you to say that Obama and McCain will CLEARLY ADVANCE THAT.”

And what kind of crystal ball do you have that says otherwise?

We look at what’s in front of us and draw our conclusions. Your conclusion disavows or makes minor the very things that I see as indicative of the outcome I’m expecting for an Obama.

We can debate that until the cows come home. There is no guarantee of anything. Did you know that G.W. Bush was going to invade Iraq and occupy both Afganistan and Iraq for most of his 2 terms? If so what in his first POTUS campaign would have led you to that conclusion?

Not a whole lot is my answer from his “compassionate conservative”, “my administration won’t do nation building (ala Bill Clinton)"… The point is the duopoly (which does in fact exist - dominant two party system) is run by a foreign policy legacy which DOES NOT change (you remember Obama was all about real change?) with administrations or parties.

So, as I said, it’s not Obama or McCain (though they represent different sides - it’s still the same coin). Obama has not provided an inkling of change regarding his committment to the duopoly agenda however he may play the cards differently than McCain.

Mine is not a crystal ball, it is the same empirical data science uses - it’s called repeatability. Only a radical change from what we have would alter these events - and Obama certainly is not a radical change agent starting with the fact that he has played by DLC rules from the get-go.

• “No hyperbole, just a god awful blood drenched history of US imperialism in Latin America. Obama and McCain will clearly advance that.”

The first part of this is obviously true Max, since there is this god awful blood drenched history of US imperialism well documented, not just in Latin America, but pretty much around the globe.

What continues to amaze me is your crystal ball that allows you to say that Obama and McCain will CLEARLY ADVANCE THAT.

I would ask you how you ‘know’ that Max, but of course I’ve done that every time you make such outrageous statements, and of course you can never answer, because it’s all a bunch of shit.

Like Jersey Girl, you don’t KNOW anything of the sort.

Let’s face it Max, you’re the worst kind of troll, and you’ve been exposed as exactly that.

“…You, on the other hand, will defend anything he does.  Even when he intends to vote for a bill that gives bush the ok to spy on us now and retroactively, without consequence…”

Oh please JG. Stop with the histrionics. It’s all so boring and tiresome. You sound like my nephews when they were much younger, always (both of them) accusing their mother of ‘defending’ the other one. It was (thank god I guess) a ‘phase’ that they went through. They’ve long since grown-up, (early 20’s now) so I can only wonder when you might get around to that.

It’s really quite pathetic to accuse me of ‘defending’ Obama, when I’ve done no such thing. I simply take him at face value, based on what he says, and what he does. And, I’ve voice legitimate criticisms when they seem appropriate. If you honestly think that *I* could provide some sort of *defense* for Barack Obama, you’re crazier than a betsy bug. He’d be in really serious trouble if he was depending on ME for any sort of *defense*. I mean, if Samantha Powers had to resign from her volunteer advisory work within his campaign, just for calling Hillary a ‘monster’, they’d be ready to lock my big mouth up. My occasions of diplomacy are very erratic, and there’s just no telling when I might let a big time truth rip, without the least bit of sugar coating. I use my ‘seniority’ as an excuse to get away with it. It also helps tremendously that I’m not currently dependent on any person or corporation or other organization for my survival. If I still was, then I’d probably be on far better behavior.

Here’s an example, (again) of where you consistently shoot yourself in the foot Jersey Girl…

• “…Even when he intends to vote for a bill that gives bush the ok to spy on us now and retroactively, without consequence.

I’ve pointed this out a few dozen times to you. YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT HE ‘INTENDS’ TO DO/VOTE FOR, because he HASN’T SAID! The pathetic part is that you even posted –yourself- what his remarks were, and his remarks included no mention of what he was ‘going to vote for’.

And, you repeated to this, over and over again. You repeated claim to be able to read Barack Obama’s mind, as to what he’s going to do with the military, and it Iraq, and with the Constitution, and on and on and on. YOU claim to know his ‘intentions’ that HE may not even know, because he won’t have a full compliment of information by which to make detailed decisions with, UNTIL he gets the job.

How many times does the difference between fact and speculation have to be drawn for you? Mr. Canning has done it, and I’ve pointed it out less diplomatically, but it’s still the essential truth. YOU DON’T KNOW. None of us can go on anything other than what he says, and what he actually does. He SAID that he didn’t like the retroactive immunity part of the House bill, and that he would work (obviously not alone) to remove that provision. And, while I haven’t had a chance to check in with the other news of the day, and Senator Feingold’s filibuster, it would APPEAR that these Senators actually are attempting to do exactly what was suggested by Barack Obama. You of course, in your extreme hate, have interpreted his words, (even after POSTING them yourself) to be something entirely different than what they actually are! In other words Jersey Girl, Barack Obama DID NOT say what YOU insinuate that he did. That’s how simple it is.

In the end, he may indeed do exactly what you have already accused him of ‘intending’. But, that hasn’t happened yet, and I don’t believe in manufacturing the ‘intents’ of others. I don’t even like broadcasting MY OWN.

I appreciate your promise not to post any other comments here, but I admit that I’ll probably not believe it until I see it. I’ve read such promises before.

Jersey Girl,

I’m still here. The next move is re-inventing where you’re at. I’m voting for Nader but the national discourse is so corrupt that the conversation might as well be taking place on another planet, except it’s not.

The harm of American Empire is deep and horrific. You might want to take a look at the Empire’s Workshop by Greg Grandin. No hyperbole, just a god awful blood drenched history of US imperialism in Latin America. Obama and McCain will clearly advance that.

The only good news on TD, in general, is that the Obama “madness” has faded. A bit of buyers remorse has set in. That’s healthy.

I don’t hate Obama (and if I can venture a fairly reasonable guess, neither does JG). The issue isn’t even Obama, it’s the people who demand we think he’s some think he has demonstrated through word and deed he is not.

cyrena, what you thought the Clintons were? That’s what you’ll soon be saying about Obama. It will take an election and you may not face it until (and if he gets in) out of office, but I suspect you’ll get it eventually.

Ernest and most of the “vote for Obama to ensure McCain doesn’t get in” are pretty much there. They’re thinking about mitigating the damage. Cyrena has that blind eye because she so wants to believe.

A little advice, don’t give your power away so easily.

Seems ongoing, that some people take their posts and go home. Been here at TD long enough to remember many bygone posters.  Some people get tired of the some o, same o.  Posters preaching to the choir and insulting them at the same time has never made sense to me, this reminds me of a friend of mine who used to call up the time lady and make obscene phone calls, which caused me question why he did so, I asked he answer was she does not know what she is talking about. 

My foremost pet peeve has always been bigots, during the Hillary confrontations, I did my share of calling people on their racism, of course racists never see themselves in the same light as they are heading out the door to the local KKK meeting.

Presenting ideas with cow chips on ones shoulder leads to nothing positive, social retardation may be the only reason for this kind of action. Why people try to base opinions with contention is beyond me? Is the intention to cause knee jerk reactions or responses?  I believe there is no option to discuss the issues with equal and fair intentions. 

My opinion is open to change by reason, but not by insult. Seems human nature to me.

Don’t be absurd, jg.  I covered that in an earlier post, which has dropped off, I guess.  I didn’t think I had to mention it again.  But, since you brought it up:  The Cheney impeachment resolution was killed in committee last year and is now totally irrelevant, except to demonstrate what will happen to the Bush impeachment resolution.  Kucinich was very clever to realize that it made sense to get rid of Cheney first.  However, the end result would have been that Bush would have appointed someone to replace him, assuming the impossible that an evenly divided Senate would vote the 2/3rds majority needed to convict.  So all the wishful thinking of Gore and others that either Bush or Cheney could actually be removed from office by impeachement is just a vehicle for fantasy.

The reality is that they will both be gone on a date certain in January, 2008, thanks to the Republicans pushing through the 22nd Amendment in reaction to Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s four terms.

“Another difference is that you have a visceral and very emotionally motivated hate for Obama. I don’t ‘hate’ the Clintons. I voted for them twice, because I they were better than the alternatives, and because I didn’t know then, what I know now, (sound familiar?) and because they ‘fooled’ me. What can I say? I’ve never claimed to be sucker-proof, and we live and we learn. (or at least I think that’s supposed to be the case). And, what seemed to ‘work’ then, isn’t what we need to ‘work’ now. Since hindsight is always 20/20, we don’t even know for certain that it did in fact work then, or what will in fact work now.”

that’s the gist of it, live and learn. xoxox

i figured it would come to this.  oh well, time for me to take a break from commenting at TD, too.

cyrena: Amon Drool is at least honest with himself about why he’s voting for Obama.  You, on the other hand, will defend anything he does.  Even when he intends to vote for a bill that gives bush the ok to spy on us now and retroactively, without consequence.  And to top it off, in his defense of it, he sounds just like bush and his merry band of constitution shredders. It’s all because of the big bad terrorists that we have to take your civil liberties away.  Jesus, how can ANYONE defend that??

In not speaking out against such a move, you are no better than those who have defended bush for the past 8 years.  Shame on you.

I won’t be commenting here anymore.  I’m sure most of you will be very pleased about that.

Max:  Keep up the good fight.  I hope you will join “break the matrix”.  I think it’s your kind of website. If you’re a glenn greenwald fan, I’m sure you’ll appreciate what they are trying to do.

Take care,
Peace xo

Max:  This one’s for you.  The other’s wouldn’t appreciate it.

http://www.breakthematrix.com/

Re Jersey Girl #165604

“…The way you feel about Hillary is how I feel about Obama.  I think obama is a false choice. He’s been packaged and sold to us by the msm.

If Hillary were the nominee, feeling as you did, that she was equal to McCain in “evilness”.  Would you still have voted for her?

If so, why? “

###

JG, I doubt we have any substantive common ground, but I’m willing to answer your questions here.
First though, I believe you’re mistaken in your suggestion that I feel the same way about the Clinton’s as you do about Obama. That’s another backward sort of example, since if ANYONE has been bought, sold, and packaged for us, it’s been the Clinton’s. You’re incredibly obtuse if you don’t get that the Clinton’s are the representatives of the ‘machine’ (Max’s term) and what has long ago gone wrong with political representation in this thing that we call a democracy. The Clinton’s represent what has long ago become a MONARCHY, which is why the ‘new kid’ was able to win the nomination. In short, the old ‘not so silent’ majority now, has REJECTED the monarchy/oligarchy/whatever you wanna call that old machine that did not represent or work on behalf of the interests of the people.

Another difference is that you have a visceral and very emotionally motivated hate for Obama. I don’t ‘hate’ the Clintons. I voted for them twice, because I they were better than the alternatives, and because I didn’t know then, what I know now, (sound familiar?) and because they ‘fooled’ me. What can I say? I’ve never claimed to be sucker-proof, and we live and we learn. (or at least I think that’s supposed to be the case). And, what seemed to ‘work’ then, isn’t what we need to ‘work’ now. Since hindsight is always 20/20, we don’t even know for certain that it did in fact work then, or what will in fact work now.

But like you, I digress. To answer your ‘what if’ question though, (always a very tricky and loaded question for nearly any scholar of the humanities) I can say that IF Hillary had won the nomination, I would have voted for her.

I would have voted for her for the same reason that the Amon Drools of the world are going to hold their noses and vote for Obama. Because, stacked up against McCain, there is ONE difference that is ultimately and critically important. That is the likely appointment of the next Supreme Court justice. LIKE John McCain, I see Hillary as a hawk and committed to the militarism, interventionism, (she’s already proved this by the way) and the goal of US hegemonic control of the globe. Hillary at least, is a died-in-the-wool corporatist, and an ‘elitist’ since birth. (Slick Willie’s origins are slightly more humble, but he was smart enough to ‘marry into it.) I believe that Hillary is also fundamentally dishonest. (she’s proved that as well…lying when there’s been no need to lie).

ALL of that said, I do believe that there is a huge difference in who she would appoint or nominate to the Highest Court, and that would have been reason enough for me to vote, not so much FOR her, but AGAINST McCain.

That is entirely different from my reasons for SUPPORTING Barack Obama. I see him as an OUTSIDER who is willing to do the work, to help us help ourselves. So yes, I have some hope that ‘we the people’ can in fact re-take our country, and have a part in making it what most of us want it to be. I don’t ever expect ALL of the people, to be satisfied ALL of the time. That’s life.

As a side note, MSM didn’t sell Obama to me, since I don’t much interact (and never have) with MSM. I’m never satisfied with ‘one take’ or ‘one view’ on anything. It generally means I have to do my own research to find the other views.

So, maybe you think Obama was ‘packaged’ by the MSM for others. But, that didn’t happen with me, the renegade.

A truly worthy cause.  http://breakthematrix.com/strangebedfellows

If only I had an extra $100 laying around to send them ~sigh~

ernest:  You missed my post where I said I don’t believe Nader has a snowball’s chance in hell.

I’ve stated this before but let me make it clear one more time.  I’m not voting for Obama because I don’t like what I see in him.  Of course I like even less of what I see in McCain.  Having said that, I am voting my conscience.  Not lesser of two evils.  Sorry if that makes you all crazy that I’m exercising my constitutional right.

My state is blue so there is no chance McCain will take it. My entire family is voting for Obama. So, no worries. Obama will win unless there is another false flag attack and martial law is imposed or the election is stolen in favor of McCain.

Laura,

I just wanted to take some time to say how very much I appreciate your heartfelt post/comments. (#165642) In other words, the wearing of your heart on your sleeve. It don’t see that as a bad thing. Not at all. It speaks of honesty, and that is something we’ve had such a short supply of.

I also believe, (in my own and this time humble opinion) that you speak for millions of us. Yes, the past 8 years have had millions of us questioning our sanity, and others losing it outright. I’ve mentioned this dozens of times..that we’ve all been traumatized to one degree or another, whether we realize it or not. So, I sincerely thank you for your courage in putting that out there.

I slightly disagree with your assessment of your own cynicism. I fear that we use that work too casually, even though I do the same thing. I think what WE have, (because I share nearly all of your concerns) is a healthy SKEPTICISM. And, there’s a real difference there. It is understandable and admirable to be skeptical. I once admitted that there were many who would call me ‘paranoid’ even though I don’t think I have any ‘excessive’ amount of it. A response from another poster, (Louise..she’s a delight if you’ve not yet read some of her pearls of wisdom) was this: “If you’re NOT paranoid, it means you’re not paying attention.”

Now maybe that’s pretty broad, but that’s OK. I prefer the broad to the very narrow in most contexts. (not always, but most of the time). So, that means that we can extend that healthy skepticism to include caution, THOUGTFULNESS, pragmatism, realism, and balance. It is GOOD to question, and it reality, that’s all ‘skepticism’ is. It doesn’t mean that we’re necessarily doubting of everything, but just that we DO think out the pros, cons, and interconnected realities of anything. (or we should). But that is not the same as cynicism. Cynicism is what we’ve seen from the Thugs in DC for nearly a decade. (or even longer, if we really wanted to break it down). Cynicism is the sheer mockery that they’ve made of what was once a democracy. Cynicism is the hubris of ‘damn the consequences”, or as Cheney said when asked about the statistic that 80% of Americans were highly critical of the War on Iraq. He said: “So?” THAT’S cynicism. With many more in DC, it’s closer to Hannah Arendt’s explanation of “The Banality of Evil.”

But, I deter. Mostly I just wanted to thank you for your honesty, and to say that I’m glad you’ve posted here. Over time, you’ll come to know more of who is what, as well as what they are NOT. And, I’m convinced that you’ll figure that out on your own, as you already have displayed that.

It’s funny about Amon Drool claiming that I like to ‘irritate’. In reality, that clearly is NOT my intent in posting here. But, I DO play devil’s advocate from time to time, just to get people (honest ones) actually thinking (for themselves) about what they actually hold as their own positions. And more importantly…WHY?

So, I guess that CAN be ‘irritating’ to some folks. But other’s welcome it. So, as gramma concept would say, we have to just keep on taking care of each other. I personally believe that as an administrator and leader, Obama can certainly provide a far greater collection of tools for us to manage that. But in the end, that’s still very much what it boils down to. We have to rebuild the kind of society that we want to have. It’s been badly damaged, but unlike Max and a few others, I don’t believe that we have to ‘start from scratch’. I don’t see the wisdom in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Rather, I think we need to repair what has become broken, and that we have to do it efficiently.

Meantime, thanks again.

JG.  With all due respect, your post confuse speculation and conjecture with probability and the reality of choice.  The poll numbers I posted reflect clearly that the next POTUS will either be John McCain or Barack Obama.  Therefore, our choice is, at this point in our nation’s history, to select one of these two candidates.

There is no empirical evidence whatsoever to even remotely suggest that what you have proposed--to convince all the Dems we know to vote for Nader--has “any” prospect of success, especially since it does not appear that any posting on line at Truthdig, individually or collectively, have a major corporate network at their disposal with which to do the convincing. 

You are right, false hope is never a good thing, and the false hope you have pinned on the prospect of a Nader victory lies well beyond mere speculation and crosses way over the border into fantasy and delusion.  That hardly seems an auspicious strategy.

I have demonstrated repeatedly the fundamental difference between Obama and McCain on the federal judiciary--an issue which is of such vital importance that a McCain presidency and ensuing Federalist Society appointment portends to the end of constitutional democracy and the rule of law as we know it.

That you come back time and again with “there is no difference” between McCain and Obama merely suggests that you have a blind spot that is so pronounced it prevents you from seeing that which is right in front of you.  How sad!

anyone check out “an unexamined threat” on truthdig? marie coco’s style reminded me of cyrena’s. it’s an excellent article. did anyone else notice the similarity of thought and expression?

that farr letter is so great, michael, the author himself! very heartening!

i received a similar letter from david wu, our rep in the house. wish i could share it, but i accidently erased it from my hard drive, dammit!

david wu is someone i have tremendous respect for.  check out his voting record sometime: no on war funding, no on fisa, etc etc. there are some great dems out there, and thus are we still fortunate. ~laura

my turn for “whoops”: http://www.petitiononline.com/ORAIPAC/petition.html

wow, terrific action in oregon against a regional warmongering aipac. check out this petition for oregonians to the democrats who attended a cozy night of war talk and carter bashing in portland recently. hip-hip… and PLEASE pass it along to any oregonians you know. thanks.

thanks for your sentiments, amon, very kind of you. i agree with you about where we are and where we could. your ideas are interesting regarding the senate and the court. perhaps if you have some time, you can flesh more of that out for us. and thanks for taking the age survey.

i’ve felt my heart race a few times on this commentary but ultimately realize that we are all in this together. our hearts are definitely in the right place even if our rhetoric gets ahead of us sometimes. plus, i’ve had a stress illness for over 10 years now; i’ve learned to breathe through the pain lol.

actually, i think that’s why i’m here… here on the end of an article about impeachment: i have hope in the future. and why? because many young people are engaged and they are engaged intelligently. they are angry about what is being done in their names. yes! my 30-yr-old son, just out of 10 yrs in the navy, with wife and baby, is totally engaged in/absorbed by the political process. and even though he is 30, he keeps me hopeful about obama. in our weekly telephone discussion, i’m usually griping about his latest pander, yet, my son always brings me back to reality. things like, “you want him to win, don’t you?” my son and russ feingold. i just hope we don’t meet with some unforeseen curve ball, like a successful swift boating or a false flag attack.

these last eight years almost destroyed my mind. i’ve often asked how americans can do anything at all anymore when people are suffering so much; when this administration and its henchmen are engaged in blatant torture and crimes against humanity; when our children are coming home broken physically and mentally; when the “war on terror” seemed to mean perpetual spin and perpetual war.

and then there came obama in stark contrast to bush, cheney, rumsfeld, rice, and mccain. in stark contrast to the clintons. (i didn’t know what i would have done if it had been clinton...) takin’ the high road most of the time. struggling with his heart en face a father figure whose ego seriously let him down. (i’ve been there and i pity them both; there were no good answers.) taking endless heat from the media. and he just kept rising in the polls. of course i’m skeptical but ya also got to have some hope in this! there is a buzz in the air right now, lots of americans have acutally seen some light! i’ve felt hopeless so long. i may get on and off the obama bandwagon, megaphone in hand or not, but i still have hope. i thinnk this whole process is changing me for the better.

and if i’m disappointed? it won’t be the first time lol. but this is serious stuff. enough blood has spilt; enough treasure has been stolen. and i’m living for the day when these criminals are made low. i hope i see that justice.

must rest now. wow, pardon my long spiel.

jg, you say the elite has scared us to death and i say they have scared you guys to death… you have all glommed on to worst case scenario à la bush. obama does not = bush or mccain and if you say he is, then you haven’t been listening.

moineau...i was gonna take a vacation from blogging after the bullshit i encountered with scott a couple days ago.  but your comment about age and the lesser-evilism/principled progressivism divide brings me back for a post.

first of all, i’ll say...what a breath of fresh air you’ve been as a TD commenter!  u combine intelligence with humility and u have a way of wearing your heart on your sleeve without a trace of the maudlin.  and from what i’ve seen, no one has handled cyrena as well as u.  cyrena likes to irritate and u handle it all with cool...not taking the bait on small stuff.

i’m 60 yrs old.  and yes, i’ve become less prone to be a believer in radical (hard to define) change… altho, it can’t be ruled out completely.  how one achieves a more socially just society when balancing out the reality of economic determinism and the need for personal autonomy is a task that our species will face as long as we exist.  having been of the working class all my life, i have no sense of anyone thinking a proleterian take-over would be for the better.  one turns to politics.  john dewey wrote about making democratic experimentalism a way of life.  i think the american people feel they have a democracy just because they have a constitution that “guarantees” them one. democracy, like everything else, should be thought of as an evolving and experimental entity.  and i believe max is right in saying that the dem/repub duopoly has quashed democratic experimentalism.  i’m all in favor of proportional representation, IRV, lessening the power of the senate (why in the world should wyoming have as much power as NY and CA), lessening the power of the supreme court.  hopefully, all these changes would lead to a multi-party system that would be more representative of the american people.

back to the age thing.  max and jerseygirl are probably a little younger than us and that may account for their more hot-blooded principled progressivism.  they both have said that we all have to vote our own indvidual conscience and i don’t think the’d ever slaughter us pragmatic obama voters if they(principled progressives) ever came to power....ha, that’s a stoopid way to end this, but i couldn’t think of anything else

moineau:  False hope is never a good thing.  You’re in for huge disappointment if ur pinning your hopes on Obama..Obama’s core support comes from the bankers and the financial elite — Goldman Sachs, UBS AG, Lehman Brothers, JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup, Morgan Stanley and Credit Suisse) healthcare industry and the nuclear power industry.  He hasn’t fought the FISA bill instead he is all for the compromise !(what else will he compromise as far as our freedoms?) He’s backed away from quick withdrawal from Iraq and has no problem with attacking iran for israel (at least that’s how it sounds in his speech) His healthcare plan doesn’t benefit we the poeple but the insurance companies.

The elite sure has you guys scared to death just hte way they like it.  What you don’t realize is, both candidates ARE the same.

So vote for him, but no, don’t get your hopes up.

jersey girl, there are no guarantees in this life. so what is wrong with a bit of hope? i thought i was the ultimate cynic but i think i’ve met my match. with obama there’s a chance at drawing down this war. i’m beginning to see cyrena’s point: there is a lot hypersupposition here. perhaps we can thank the last eight years for making us all too fearful.

and max, i’m not so sure that obama uses the term “re-engagement” with latin america the way you interpret it. you don’t have any proof because he has not yet re-engaged “obama-style”.

if anyone wants an alternative, nader is there. (seems lots of republicans do.) as for me, i’ll take my chances with the dems who can beat mccain. this election is too important for a roll of the dice. and even if it weren’t, nader would not be my man. i like his letters,