You’re so right WriteronTheStorm.  And the most expedient means of getting rid of the Palestinian problem would have been gas, a clear favorite in 20th century methods of genocide.

Blackspeare writes:

“One of the problems with the current state of warfare is that we forgot how to win.”

One might conclude this, given that the last clear US victories, those over the axis powers, were achieved only after the enemy had been utterly demoralized through overwhelming destruction. But the firebombings of Tokyo and Dresden, which completely leveled those cities, represent a kind of damage that the public would probably not accept today. The number of collateral casualties in such a campaign would send shock waves throughout the hypermediatized world. And this is not even bringing Nagasaki and Hiroshima into the discussion.

Also, new military tactics, specifically asymmetrical warfare and terrorism, were not yet mainstream. Who knows how long German insurgents might have fought on if these were options back then. So your comment is more accurately applicable to the old nation state model of war.

However, there might be something to the idea that Israel should have acted with more brutality and undisguised imperial intent in the early stages of its settlement. By “breaking the Palestinian back” with a single blunt but decisive blow, the Israeli state might be more accepted today, and there might have been less overall suffering.

But this is the sort of intellectual argument that any moral person would have trouble with in the real world. I wouldn’t want to make the decision to sanction a Palestinian pogrom, even if I knew for certain that it would save lives in the long run, much less if I working on a theory.

“America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.”

--Oscar Wilde

One of the problems with the current state of warfare is that we forgot how to win.  You have to vanquish the enemy even insurgents.  Not since WW II have we vanquished an enemy when it counted.  Not in Korea, Not ‘Nam, and certainly not in Iraq.  The only military operations that met the criterion were Grenada, Panama, and Serbia----total victories one and all.

I believe that JMcC understands this and should he be elected he knows how to win.  He knows that victory in ‘Nam was in hand----perhaps 1-2 months away with continued carpet bombing of the north.  To understand the value of complete annihilation look at the occupation of Germany after the invasion-----just 31 US troops were killed during the occupation due to enemy fire.

If we had annihilated the Iraqi resistance early on then it would have been a cakewalk----and today the remaining Iraqi citizens that survived would be in much better shape economically and politically. In an occupation you don’t want to be liked or respected----you want to be feared!  Should it be necessary to take action against Iran, then JMcC is the man for the job.  And better yet, Iran knows this!  And so does Israel.  Israel missed a grand opportunity in 1967 when after the 6 day war, with the enemy was vanquished, the remaining Palestinians were packed and ready to flee to Jordan, Syria and Lebanon----all Israel had to do was prod a little and today the West Bank might well have been Israeli territory.  However, an Israeli general and avowed liberal socialist by the name of Dyan persuaded the Palestinian leaders to stay because he thought they could all live together in peace----pieces is more like it.

So the next ME war will be the big one and like I said one side or the other is going to be vanquished nuclear or not.

My main hope is that Mr. Obama has hung enough with the brothers to learn the basics of dealing of dealing with the Man. The main ones being that there is absolutely nothing to be gained by disagreement, and that therefor one survives by shucking and jiving. This would imply that we should not believe anything he says, which would be a great relief. Somehow I feel there is hope.

RE Dobbs-Head

It is no doubt true that Israelis come in every stripe, and I think that most of the commentators on TD are careful to distinguish between Israelis in general, and the Zionist policies of Israeli leaders.

But it’s interesting to point out some of the assertions and inferences in your post which illustrate what I call the David-and-Goliath syndrome. You write: “{Israelis} view conflict as necessary for their survival.  They will continue to use harsh measures as long as they feel their survival is threatened.”
and later:
“They are just a bunch of people who really want that land. I think it’s insane, but so is the Palestinian desire to try and take the land away from them.”

First of all, the Palestinians aren’t trying to take land from the Israelis, it’s the other way around. This seemingly innocent semantic gaff suggests a deeper delusion affecting the people of Israel as a whole.

Israelis constantly plead that they are the poor little Davids in this situation, yet at every turn, they act like Goliath. In the media, they claim sole ownership to victimhood, yet as soon as the cameras stop rolling, the tanks start rolling.

The idea of tiny, defenseless Israel, beset by it’s more powerful neighbors may have began as a PR thing, a rhetorical bulldozer designed to flatten Israel’s detractors back in the summer of ‘68. Forty years on, many in Israel still identify with this false notion. It has now become a fixture in the national psyche. But the problem is that no one outside of Israel believes it anymore. The veil has lifted.

After years of behaving like a bellicose colonial behemoth, the rest of the world finds it reasonable to conclude that Israel IS a bellicose colonial behemoth.

Zionists continue to blackmail American leaders for support through their various political apparatuses, but the American people are beginning to open their eyes. The colonial era is past. The Zionist are too late. These sorts of bad manners are not acceptable at the grownup’s table anymore.

---------www.americahappens.com-----------

If there was no continued instigation of rockets and missles into Israel every single day, there would be no response by Israel.

The Israeli killed Thursday in a Palestinian mortar attack has been identified as Amnon Rosenberg, 51, of Kibbutz Nirim, who is survived by a wife, Tali, and three children - Dor, Eldar and Yarden. The mortar crashed into the Nirlat factory in Kibbutz Nir Oz, wounding four others. An Israeli airstrike targeted a gunman in the area from which the mortar attack was launched.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3552287,00.html

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/06/wall-street -bets-on-obama-for.html

here’s a really good like article over at opensecerts, now i know all you are going to tell that he has raised all this money for small donors, etc. I guess my question is who do you think he will consult when it comes to regulating wall street and the shadow banking system etc. I have a sneaking suspicion it won’t be all these small donors.

I believe we are beginning to see the change Obama was talking about. You guys just miss understood, by change he meant after he got the nomination he would change all of his positions back to pro Israeli hawk, pro corporate, pro military industrial complex, pro wall street bailout etc. So, get ready guys, he comes change you cannot only believe in but bet on.

Ed wonders (diplomatically)

“Perhaps this failure to attribute or link such a long post, consisting entirely of material copied from someone else’s work, was just an oversight on Howard’s part?”

Nope. It wasn’t an oversight Ed. Howard does this shit all the time. This is what got Nabih and a few others so riled up they stopped posting here.

Seems like nobody cares either. I didn’t even notice, because I never read anything posted under Howards name anymore.

I’m not even sure where this belongs on any thread here, other than that it has to be read. It references Afghanistan in the title, but gives a horrifying picture of what is continuing in Iraq as well.

Some of you will remember the death squad units from the very dirty wars of South America. They were all trained by the US and of course they continue to be. These though, are US pentagon units and US trained contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The situation in Iraq resembles the genocide of Rwanda, which the Pentagon also funded.

Dear Congress: “Pentagon Units in Afghanistan are Operating like South American Death Squads”
The Nation. Posted June 8, 2008.

In a letter to Congress, human rights leaders urge Harry Reid and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to stop funding torture in the so-called “war on terror.”

“~We call on our Congress to speak out and organize public hearings on the systemic human rights violations occurring with American funding and advisers in Iraq. While there continues to be considerable media and Congressional attention to torture in Guantánamo, there is comparatively little attention to the mounting evidence of human rights violations, including torture and targeted killings of civilians, in Iraq since the 2004 Abu Ghraib revelations, and virtually none at all devoted to Afghanistan.

We recall the powerful and effective public outcry against the Phoenix program during the Vietnam War and the death squads during the Central American wars. Yet the top counterinsurgency adviser to General Petraeus has called for a “global Phoenix program,” and the response in this country appears to be silent ignorance. The American diplomat charged with violating human rights in Central America became our ambassador to Baghdad, where militias, death squads and secret prisons were widespread. But few questions about human rights in Iraq were directed at Ambassador John Negroponte in Congressional hearings.”~

More at the link, and it should be read by all.

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/87018/

Israel’s many mistakes. In its six decades of history, clouded by almost uninterrupted warfare against it, Israel has made many mistakes. Relinquishing the Sinai to Egypt, Southern Lebanon to Hezbollah, and Gaza to the Palestinians were the most outrageous. One lesson to be learned was that one cannot make peace with one’s enemies by giving away pieces of one’s country.

The greatest folly, of course, was the abandonment of Gaza. Virtually since the first day of Israel’s disengagement from the area, the Gazans have launched daily rocket attacks on the city of Sderot. So far “only” about twenty Israelis have been killed. Many more have been wounded.

But it is only a matter of time that one of these rockets is going to hit a school, a hospital or an apartment building, causing unacceptable casualties. Then Israel’s forbearance and patience are likely to snap.

These Qassam rockets, however, are only the beginning. Large quantities of explosives and more advanced weapons systems – presents from Syria and mostly from Iran – are supplied daily through sophisticated tunnels from the Sinai into the Gaza territory. That happens under the “watchful eyes” of the Egyptians, who have foolishly been allowed to be the guardians of the border between Egypt and Gaza.

There is no question what any other country would do if it found itself in a position similar to that of Israel. What would we do if bombs or rockets launched from Mexico landed in San Diego? Obviously, we would obliterate the source of such attack and inflict sufficient additional damage to totally discourage such behavior in the future. But what does Israel do? Does it use its powerful army or its superb air force to destroy the areas from which these rockets are launched? Surprisingly not. Guided by its own moral compass and always concerned about “world opinion,” Israel attempts to pinpoint the source of attacks, taking enormous care not to hurt “innocent civilians.” But the concept of “innocent civilians” is nonsense, of course. Anybody who allows his backyard to be used as a launching pad for rockets should expect his home to become a target for counterattack and for casualties to ensue

The main reason I think America backs Israel is a misplaced sense of guilt for the Holocaust. All we hear is “You can’t let it happen again!”. Well, we won’t, but I don’t think we should be doing everything in our power to keep Israel happy. The Israeli lobby loves reminding us of it. (Unlike some people, we believe it happened.)Politicians love money, and AIPAC (like the “religious” right) has a lot of it. ANY politician will whore themselves out for it! The fact is, Palestinians are people too, and Israel needs to accept it. Israelis are people too, and the Palestinians need to accept it. The politicians in all involved countries keep using religion as a tool to keep the violence going. Jews,muslims and christians all do it. No government wants to give up power, and a frightened populace lets them keep it. I’ve said it a million times: This would be Heaven on earth if not for religion. Until people get over their “faith” and fighting over “holy” territory, this violence WILL NOT stop. America loves to see fighting in the Middle East. We are having enough trouble out of the EU and China; we don’t NEED another group of competitors. Until EVERYONE in the world wants a change, it ain’t gonna happen. Obama sure as hell ain’t gonna change anything, neither will McSame. (Shame on you, Ron Paul!) People everywhere need to stop expecting anything worthwile out of their governments. I know this is a throwback, but what if they gave a war and nobody came? What would governments do if their peoples all said “We will not kill and die to keep you in power”. It won’t happen, but can you imagine? Asking ANY government to behave in a civilized manner is an exercise in trust, and if you trust ANY government I feel a bit bad for you. There really is more than one side to this story, it’s just a shame that not enough people want to listen to them. I hope you all have a good one!

Ed,

Thanks for posting the list again. I’ve saved it to a more appropriate spot this time, that I can put my hands on immediately.

And, I’m really looking forward to reading several of these. I just haven’t had time, because of other work, and of course it’s always a feast/famine thing. I mean, it’s taken years for most of this stuff to come to light, and now it’s all gushing out. BUT...I’m not complaining. And, I’m looking forward to being able to do a full catch-up. My own self-provided sabbatical.

Thanks again.

May I also suggest a Brilliant book by Susan Nathan the Other israel (refering to a small Arabic town where she lives , which does not exist on the map nor on the Airports screens everytime she travels ) it is an eye opener . she is jewish and Not self hating , she has plenty of jewish friends , she is a fair just compassionate jew .

also another one zionism ,The Real Enemy Of the Jews by Alan Hart .

Things are changing because you never heard discussions like this in the media.  There has been such a disinformation campaign in the msm that I only learned this year about the situation in Palestine as it existed from 1900-1949.  Prior to this I had heard about a dozen different stories about the origin of the state of Isreal - all of them favorable to Isreal and dismissive of the rights of Palestnians.

AIPAC’S power seems to come from a very motley crew of American pressure groups. The most obvious is the Jewish vote in New York, which is considered essential to winning that state.

Allied with AIPAC is the weird conglomeration of fundamentalist “Christian” [ironic quotes] pressure groups who actually WANT war in the Middle East, believing this will bring about the Second Coming and the “rapture” [ironic quotes--you have to do some pretty stretched interpretation of scripture to believe it says all good people will be swept up to heaven, leaving cars and airplanes unmanned].

The alleged “Christians” [ironic quotes] are considered essential to winning certain key “Bible Belt” regions: the Midwest and South.

Thus, AIPAC has sewed up political support from some of America’s most liberal pressure groups (New York Jewish voters) and some of America’s most “conservative” [ironic quotes] pressure groups: religious fundamentalists.

Thus, all American politicians must bow and scrape before AIPAC, or feel they must. Anyone--ANYONE--who refuses to bow and scrape is targetted for immediate character assassination by AIPAC’s powerful media connections. See Mearsheimer and Walt for more information on this.

American politicians feel they must give one hundred percent, unqualified support for anything Israel does. The Palestinians don’t even show up on the radar. So effective is the propaganda that, if a politician even suggests there might, just might, be another side to the story, he/she is immediately labelled an anti-semite or supporter of terrorism.

So invisible are the Palestinians that Israelis routinely mouth the “talking point” that there really IS NO SUCH THING AS A “PALESTINIAN” or even “Palestine.” Nope--never existed as a nation, therefore, “Palestinians” [who don’t exist] have no right to their own country. And American pundits nod their heads in consent, as though they’ve just heard something profound.

“In front of us this week was Blair with his increasingly maniacal eyes, poncing on about faith and God and religion, and I couldn’t help reflecting on an excellent article by a colleague a few weeks ago who pointed out that God never seemed to give Blair advice.”

It’s true. Nobody who claims to speak to god (and who gets answers) ever comes back and says that god told him it was a really bad idea to invade other people’s countries, steal their land and resources, and do it under the guise of religion, liberty and freedom. All that stuff is already there in all the “good” books of any religion. Humanists know this without recourse to any good book. Religious fanatics love war.

I think Tony Blair is losing his mind to guilt, is desperately looking for something to redeem him from the burden of hundreds of thousands of dead, injured, sick and displaced that his illegal wars caused.

Too late, Tony. Go home and shut up. Don’t mess things up any further.

And to Mr. Fisk - I’m sorry what has happened to your beautiful Lebanon and I hope the birds come back.

Troublesum asks:

• “Does anyone know how AIPAC acquired so much power and influence in Washington?”

Troublesum, I don’t. I can’t even point to any particular point in time when this influence began, but that’s because stuff like this almost never has a defined start point. It ‘evolves’ depending on the specific forces that guide and shape it. And, like any other of Frankenstein’s monsters, it can (and has) become exactly that. It didn’t necessarily even have to begin as such. It only needed to be taken over by a small group, just as the neo-cons first hijacked the US repuglican party, and the neo-libs highjacked the democratic party, and so it goes. The neo-cons could have very likely highjacked AIPAC before using it to hijack the repugs, to then highjack the entire government. That’s just one really loose and hypothetical trajectory.

BUT, if you (or anyone) has the time and/or interest, John Walt and Stephen Measheimer have already done a considerable amount of very excellent work on this. One piece is “The Tragedy of Great Power Politics” and then of course their more recent work on the Israel Lobby. I personally haven’t had time to read the entirety of their last work, though Truthdig did publish a lengthy portion of it several months back. You might check out the archives for that.

Additionally, Ed Harges recently posted a list of several helpful books as well. I saved it, since some were new to me. Now I’ll have to find where I put it. Or, maybe he can post that again.

The thing I believe that any really serious inquirers should realize, is that these take-overs don’t require any HUGE number of knowing informed participants, and so contrary to what we often assume in terms of ‘group think’ is that organizations like AIPAC don’t necessarily represent the interests of ordinary American Jews, or even ordinary Israelis. Israel, small as it is, actually has MORE human rights organizations (made up of ordinary Israeli citizens) devoted to the Palestinian cause than we have here in the US. Most folks aren’t aware of that. And, they are up against the same thing with the Israeli government as we are with our own. It’s a never ending battle against those with the power, because they use BRUTE FORCE as the instrument for enforcing the power.

Anyway, those are some resources to check out, but I admit that it won’t be an easy task. This kind of investigation or research always keeps leading to more and more, before one can ever get all of the dots connected. Seems worth the effort though, for anyone who has the time.

Does anyone know how AIPAC acquired so much power and influence in Washington?  I remember that when senator Fulbright of Arkansas left office in the late 70’s he said the the senate of the US was owned by AIPAC or whatever it was called back then.  It was a speech like Eisenhower’s famous farewell speech.  Fulbright warned that this would have disasterous consequenes for the nation if it continued.  I still don’t understand how they acquired so much power.  Is it simply a matter of campaign contributions?

Is Our ‘big Brother ‘ role going to continue in the same fashion in Iraq. Granted We broke It so we should fix it- but when the pieces Refuse to come together, it’s time to give it up.
I think we all realize it is Not the People of these countries that are the real problem, It’s the leaders. As Americans we have finaaly gotten a taste of what it’s like to live in a Non Democratic country.Of course we haven’t really in decades- but this admin has been brazen to the point of High crimes in it’s Abuse of Power. Hezzbolah, Hamas, AQ et al are not the most dangerous of extremeists- it is those who have been ‘working in the shadows’ holding High political offices and welding Great power over the masses.They have only gotten stronger over the last decade, thus provoking the Backlash response by the ‘Radical ‘Fringes. We are Far less Secure Now then before 9/11. Those attacks were on the MIC, Our inability to control our Gov’t and it’s sponsoring Incs Now places US in danger of direct attacks on Truely Soft targets.
We must demand Prosecution of the Ring leaders in this country of this REckless endangerment and corrupt Foreign policy.Those who have actively persaude the agenda and those who allowed it to Highjack our country.We Must once again be the Leaders in a Gov’t ‘For the People and By the People’. I consider Cheney’s ‘So’ and confession of Treason which has lead to War crimes and was motivated by Crimes against Humanity ( Blood for Oil). Only When We Stand Up will we be able to lend a hand to the rest of mankind against the Tyranny that has Oppressed and Killed. 64% of Isrealis’ Want Talks with Hamas to finally end the terror - I have No doubt an equal # of Palistinians feel the same. And Surely if this Corrupt regime i staken out of the Picture in Iraq- They too will be able to come to some agreement. It is Not US standing in the Way to peace- it is those who claim to represent US, thier Motto- ‘Divide & Conquer’ ‘Through Chaos comes Order’.WE Lop the head of Our Beast and much o fth eviolence aroud the world today will be squelched. If not from ending their direct involvement then from the Realization of those accomplices and tyrannts that they Too are in danger of being ‘dethroned’ the same way. If WE Can Not be Free then No others have a fighting chance.
Prosecution for High Crimes Here Will bring About World Peace.

I used to have hope in Mr Obama and used to sit and listen to him , (comparing any speaker to the chimpo sounds good ) but after the AIPAc speech i was disappointed , there wont be any change israel will control the whitehouse again . i was hoping to see real change , justice and fair politicies (heard from Mr ron Paul ) shame .

LARRY SHAPIRO SAID :
the president of Iran has expressed the desire to wipe Israel off the map

He never did . those who mistranslated did . im not sure who did the first translation , Probably Memri but he never used the word map . he was talking about regime change within israel

check out this so you can understand what he really said . in the meantime Israeli did wipe out palestine of the world map and continue to threaten iran like bullies without the UN saying a word of condemnation .

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jun/14/post155

I posted a link to Mr. Fisk’s brilliant article as soon as I came across it. Funny thing about Obama’s Aipac speech is that every time I attempted to post a link, both the NPR transcript and the one on his campaign web site, it claims it can not be found! Nevertheless it can be located by simply entering on Google, barack obama’s aipac speech. Reading the transcript will reveal why Robert Fisk is so disgusted with all of this political lying.

Thank you Robert Fisk,

I think you are the only commentator to break through the superficially historic chatter and self-congratulation (i.e. we are moral enough to vote for a black man), of Obama’s nomination and underline that his peech to AIPAC was as good as anything Cheney or Rumsfeld could have delivered. Not only did send out the perennial message to the world of American arrogance but it defied everything that Obama has campaigned on.

I campaigned for Obama for monnths, but in front of AIPAC he undid all the hope I had for a new leadership.

It was pandering and saber-rattling at its very worst.

This world is just ate up with all kinds of good news. Now we don’t have to worry about those ugly nasty critters the caribbean monk seal any more because they are gone, extinct, non-existant and the beauty of it is they are the fist species of seals the have gone the way of the dodo because of human design. I say design because these critters surely had something of import to cause humans to hunt them down to extinction. Good riddance. Now on to the next species.
A big heart felt round of appreciation to obama’s putting to rest the fears of israelis being shut out of american processes. Damn we just couldn’t operate as a just and humane country with out those beautiful israelis guiding us by the hand as how to conduct ourselves in the world. Great job obama, I am at the least going to get me 50 or so verifiable identities so I can vote for you as many times as I can though I guess it wouldn’t matter if I went ahead and voted for old johnny. That would be the dream ticket. Either one get elected and then choose the loser to be VP. Sounds great to me.
I was most disappointed to see where there are over 11,000 earmarks(pork) in the lastest spending bill going through congress. I think that is a too low number that should be at least tripled. Surely there are many more grafters in need of money from the american people because no one cares and besides, these spending bills are way too low, one trillion dollars needs to be the minimum for these poor people that need this money so bad. The only place I have seen this information has been on msnbc so it naturally will not get much more play. And it may not be finished in congress so those entitled to more earmarks can contract their congress person or senator for a ‘piece of the pie’.
And as long as pelosi and reid are in charge things should just go a long just fine for ameraelis. No two better people can be counted on to do so much good for the strong stout american people. So be sure and vote them back in as they are way too important for this country.
A last note, DO YOUR PART FOR THE WORLD, GO OUT AND START SHOOTING POISONING AND KILLING AS MANY WILD ANIMALS SO AS TO GET RID OF THEM. Think of what can be down with the habitats that don’t have to support some dumb stupid animal anymore. I love the look and smell of asphalt and concrete, makes me teary eyed thinking about the strength of humans while walking down a paved side walk or road.

Our constant pandering to the right wing AIPAC lobby by all the presidential candidates is testimony to how Israel is the tail wagging the dog.  Israel has more sway in our elections than any other nation. They are also the biggest beneficiaries of our foreign aid largesse. No wonder the Middle East continues to view us with suspicion. They know the U.S. will never be an honest broker in any peace settlements, until we stop treating Israel like the 51st state. What we don’t seem to realize is that AIPAC does not even represent all of Israel, only the right wing elements.  We are being held hostage in the U.S. by groups like AIPAC, and also similar groups that perpetrate our similar failed policies with regard to Cuba. This country could really use a real liberal in office next January, somebody who really will represent real change, especially in our foreign policy.

Regarding groveling before AIPAC, to be an American politician requires that one have no self-respect.

Regarding international law, the U.S. and Israel will remain rogue states no matter which of the two men is elected U.S. president.