By Ben, June 3 at 2:09 pm: “Why sympathize with the victims of these ecclesiastic snubs!  Are they not familiar with their church’s position when they join?”

I don’t know what the situations are with Protestant denominations, but most Catholics are born to their religion, baptized as infants and indoctrinated in the dogma before they have a choice in the matter.  Those who convert by choice as adults are overwhelmingly outnumbered by those who had nothing to say about their entry and grow up being told that they’ll go to hell if they even think of leaving the church.

By the time they reach adulthood, decades of instilled guilt make withholding of the most frequently administered sacrament a rather effective form of spiritual blackmail.

As I understand it, only Jewish mothers are more effective guiltmongers than the Catholic clergy.

NROBI - This is in reply to your June 4 post. In my parish, I also see a gradual return to pre-Vatican II days.  At the same time I think it’s still a minority who are tyrannical about it - so far.

Religion - Catholic, Christian, Muslim, Jewish…doesn’t matter - becomes deadly when intolerance of anybody or anything that doesn’t agree with it becomes its primary business. (Intolerance is best defined by its antonyms - tolerant, liberal, open-minded.)

Unfortunately, religion is a convenient, almost natural, means by which the intolerant will act out their hatreds.  As of now, it seems to have become an illness, not only in this country but world-wide.

Felicity,  in the Catholic Church you and I are truly in the minority.  I, see more and more of the people in my parish cave into the prevailing winds of regression and longing for an easier time. A time, when everyone knew that the priest had all the answers, the Bishop was seen only by some, and G-d, spoke from Heaven through the Holy Father.  No longer, are the masses content with this style of faith, the demands of the world and our own growth, seek out through doubt whether we have all the answers and look to other faiths and ways of thinking, apart from the normative doctrines of the Church. As I noted, dissent will not be brooked in this “new, old,” Church.  What are we left with then? I have to know that my faith, is not dependent upon a person or the dictates of someone I have never met. And who for the life of me, I will probably never meet. This against a backdrop of continuing corruption and scandal, helps me to know that I cannot choose one faith over another.  When people ask me, what do you believe, I tell them this;  I am a CaBuSuJew.  My beliefs are drawn from the Catholic, Buddhist, Sufi and Jewish traditions. No longer will I lock myself into a single belief system that does not and cannot meet the demands of a growing spirituality. When will I see the results of my faith come to be? Only G-d can tell, and that will only happen when I rise to meet the maker of us all.
The lethal and explosive combination of politics and religion was proscribed by Paul, in his letters, saying that no man who becomes in politics should be involved in religion, and no man who serves G-d, should become involved in the political arena. This abomination of politics and religion, should and will be driven from the landscape of American life, but only when enough people stand up and say with loud voice, “Enough Already!” we the American people know the ideal set forth in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, that religion and religious litmus tests should play no part in the political arena. We demand that you, X candidate become a person of moral and ethical standards, but to trumpet your church-going on the stage will not be tolerated.  Should you continue to pander to a small, lackluster community, we will not vote for you neither will we give to your campaign, so that you can oppress us with your ideas. We are adults!

Village Elder, thanks as usual for this excellent post. (I’m SOOO grateful for the articulate wisdom that I gain from you and others here).

I almost missed it, as I was about to ‘unsubscribe’ from this particular thread. (I find irrationality depressing).

So, I’m glad I took a brief last cruise though. The posts are inspirational for me when I get stuck in my own work/writing. They provide me with a much needed prompt.

What a far far better world this would be if people owned up to and understood their personal spirituality.
But organinzed religion’s appearance on the scene has taken this away from the masses as it found a perfect exploitative characteristic in which to gain and maintain control of the masses. Why are there so many different religions for 1 supposed god? I would say holding to religious fervor that that is the classic example of ‘graven images’.
But I guess that because of human’s inherent weakness in the face of the future and the unknown, we have to break up into groups to drive this into the ground, meaninglessness.

Mr Kmiec is a representative of a political party that is unapologetic in its romance with the jackboot. He regularly dispenses Neo-Conservative political platitudes, and bromides. So why should we be surprised at his religious choice: that of another brand of authoritarian “thought”, itself mired in “spiritual” platitudes and bromides. Mr. Kmiec is an obedient believer, but not quite obedient enough. Which came first his religion or his politics? A question that is, perhaps, unanswerable.
Mr. Nelson, the myth of the Eucharist was not fully realized until the middle ages, with the creation of the doctrine of transubstantiation, according to Charles Freeman’s “The Closing of the Western Mind”. Or is this a case, Mr. Nelson, of faith over reason, defended on this website, maladroitly, in the last few weeks? Or are the objective facts of History, of no interest, of no moment to the faithful?

The beliefs and opinions you cite are not facts.

On your first point—read some history texts written above the 4th grade level.

Priests/bishops/pope ... human.  So were and are the molested children and the tortured, maimed and murdered victims of the zealots.

Your description of “partial birth” abortion is another restating of fundamentalist lies told to the uninformed.  I always marvel at how religious types and self professed holy folks will tell any lie to promote their cause and fund raising.

Your argument that god created all things is unsupported belief not fact.  And are you referring the the abramic god of the holy bible or one of the antecedents to yahweh who are well documented in history.  Perhaps you are referring to the “supreme being” from another tradition with equally invalid claims at being the creator.  As far as supporting and protecting life - review the dark ages.

Life and viability of a complex organism surviving on its own are different issues.  Would you defend the right of yeast to survive and demonstrate you belief by not eating bread or drinking beer, wine or distilled spirits.  That yeasty is the same (actually more complex) as a newly fertilized egg.

Only true believers are not interested in facts.  Belief trumps fact for the believer.  Rationality, as we developed during the Age of Reason/Enlightenment, after the religious gave our species the last bout of the dark ages—in the west courtesy of the church, demands that facts be verifiable by all and beliefs recited as truth are statements of madness.

A quote from a pope:

“The death sentence is a necessary and efficacious means for the church to attain its ends when obstinate heretics disturb the ecclesiastical order.”

This wasn’t some medieval pontification (pun intended) - this is a quote from Leo XIII, reigned 1878 - 1903.  The Catholics aren’t alone in bullying their followers, but they have more practice than most.  This is one of the reasons I’m a member of one of the fastest-growing denominations in the world: former Catholics.

No deafening silence here Rick Nelson, and YOU are exactly the reason that so many Catholics who really have any measure of what faith is about, have long since bailed from this stupidity.

To suggest that the Roman Catholic Church has ‘prospered’ is myth number one, and if you think you can focus on terrorizing people with language such as baby killing, I’d like to know what language you’d use to describe the terror of pedophilia perpetrated against thousands of children over a period of at least 30 years while the priests and bishops (of which my late cousin was one) and cardinals, and popes (even John) turned a blind eye. I guess if you all just don’t ‘SEE’ the evil, that it doesn’t prevail, huh?

Oh no, I come from a long line of those steeped in the hypocrisies of the Catholic Church. Some are smart enough to recognize them for what they are, and continue to practice their faith based on what they know is the right thing. Like nrobi’s post below.

Other’s..like you, stay stuck in the hypocrisy and make excuses for the atrocities of the tyranny that such Theocratic Authoritarianism perpetrates.

And no, it’s not ONLY Catholics, so don’t flatter yourself by claiming that it’s a matter of “Catholic Bashing’. There are hypocrites like you in all of the organized religions.

I just happen to be more familiar with the Catholic Brand.

Why sympathize with the victims of these ecclesiastic snubs!  Are they not familiar with their church’s position when they join?  If they willingly choose dogmatic “knowledge” (an oxymoron if there ever was one) over empirical evidence, personal experience and common sense, then they deserve whatever injustice that their “moral authority” visits upon them.  And if more people had to live within the dogmatic constraints, contradictions and outright absurdities of their chosen religion, they’d more readily see the folly in adopting a world view based entirely on the fanciful superstitions of primitive sheep herders.

“Pro-Lifers” are simply anti-abortionists wearing a stolen dress.  For all the reasons cited here, the pro-lifers don’t deserve the title.  The public should always be reminded that they are not pro-life only anti-abortion with a pack of lies.

My Brethern, try not to get too wiggethed out by this.  The Church ought to be able to meteth out Jesus’ blood in any way it seeth fit.

Who areth we to criticizeth?

Verily.

And remember, Jesus love you, this you know, even if at the altar they told you, no blood for you. 

Blood Nazis!!!!

Neuro-scientist Jill Taylor:
http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/229

Pinochet was a good Catholic and never missed Mass on Sunday.  Same for Franco.

You’re not alone - I’m one.  (I don’t think there is a tyranny of the religious majority, however,  I think we’re faced with the tyranny of the religious minority.)

It’s understood that the Founders were committed to freeing the government of religion, but what’s forgotten is that they were equally committed to liberating religion from government. The latter had pretty much been upheld until recently when a candidate for President was pressured, more like forced to leave his church, apparently as a qualification for the job he sought?

Now we have Mr. Kmeic being denied Communion UNLESS he changes his support to a anti-choice candidate?  What is that but a religion interfering with a citizen’s right to vote for whomever he pleases.

I don’t know when this lethal mix of religion and government started, but it’s predictable that if such continues unabated another of our freedoms will be on its way to the dust bin of our history.

Notice that nobody is ever denied communion for being a war monger or death penalty advocate.

Douglas Kmiec? Legal scholar? Conservative legal scholar? Numerous appearances on the Newshour? That Douglas Kmiec? Holy ‘wafer thins’ early in the morning mass, who’d a thunk it possible. Well there you go, Inquisition on and heat up the “irons!” Wow, is the ‘Pope’ responsible for this outrage? Nothing like a little enforced faith to bring out the “contrition” in true believers. Say, I wonder if the Catholics have brought back the old plenary indulgence. See, that way one can commit any number of venal/mortal sins and then cough up a bucket load of cash to the local priest and then the local priest can forward that bucket load of cash to the Pope and ALL is forgiven. G. Bush might want to consider that ploy. Even if old Bushy-bush-bush is Methodist or whatever. Long live the ‘Dark Ages’ and welcome back for a redo. Say, do you think that the unnamed “priest” got himself a consult with Antonin Scalia? You know, Tony ‘the reaper’ Scalia of the Supremes and Opus Dei. Hmmm, I wonder.

Well said Purple Girl. This ‘pro-life’ misnomer has been among the worst of so much of the BS language.

As nrobi has also pointed out, these same ‘pro-life’ people don’t extend their alleged ideology to the death penalty, (of which the US remains the only industrialized/so-called civilized nation that continues to practice it) and they surely don’t care about what happens to anyone AFTER birth!!

I have frequently cited -right here- the infant mortality rates in places like the rural South, and in the demographics where there are a majority of African-Americans, as being even higher than many of the so-called 3rd world countries.

Meantime, the pro-lifers don’t care a whit about those who manage to survive infancy in their highly privatized society where everyone is supposed to get by on their own, without education, without jobs, without even the basics of health care or a decent roof over their heads, and without even a modicum of respect for their humanity.

To use such a sacred instrument as the Eucharist, for political means, is an abomination and tyranny of the worst kind. I, am a Catholic, but wish that these men who have the charge of the Church, would get their acts together. Not only that but the bloviaters, such as Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity, would be the people they say they are, intellectually honest. Not only does the “culture of life,” say that abortion is wrong, but that state sponsored murder is wrong. That’s Right! The American Conference of Catholic Bishops, has a long-standing policy against the death penalty in all its forms.  This also includes euthanasia.  Should they wish, these men of “fair and balanced” viewpoints, need to change their stances on the death penalty as well. My church, the one that has in its history Vatican II, has been hijacked by a religious and wrong-headed group of men. They spout one thing and do another.  They preach forgiveness and then to deny a private citizen, the most essential part of their faith, the Eucharist, because of political ideology, has at its root, tyranny and oppression.  We, the laity of the Roman Catholic Church will not stand for the essentials of our faith being used for political or ideological gain.  There are more Catholics out there that think like myself, then will admit it for fear of being wronged such as this unfortunate person was. Mr. Kmiec, should stand his ground and look to the Lord for comfort not the institution of the Church. I, too am voting for Sen. Barack Obama, but I am voting for him in full conscience, knowing that he and I support a women’s right to choose and that all the rest of the nonsensical arguments, will not change the fact that it is not my place to impose my will on another human being with full conscience. It is a shame that this disagreement has now become such a political football, that a person who stands up for their conscience, can and will be refused the fellowship of their faith and the essentials of the faith.

I am so Sick of this BS rhetoric. the so called ‘Pro Life’ movement has Proven it is nothing more than a ‘Pro Birth’ movement, after that you are F*cked!the don’t giv ea shit about health care ,education, poverty, or even the Atrocity of War - blood for Oil.
So who is really behind this ‘pro Life ‘Facade? The Corps, who used Religion to infiltrate the Faith based and CON them during every election. Not in hopes of passing their misguided Religous zeal agenda, bu tto put in Corp Whores who will throw them bones, bu totherwise pass laws to increase THEIR profit margins.
They have done the same thing with the Liberal Causes- Case In Point Hillary’s campaign. By using the ‘Gender War Cry’ they came very close to putting This Corp Horse (kind analogy) on the Nov Ballot- those securing the Only 2 horses in the Race-THEIRS. Her Obliterate Iran was a Wink and a Nod Not just to the War Profiteers but to the Religious heretics who have Highjacked religion for Millenia (sociopathic meglomaniacs who have proven they have NO regard for the Words or Teachings in any Holy Book). She has single handedly Undermined what little gains we have acheived over the last 35 yrs- Do Not pat yourself on the Back for a meager $0.02 raise in 35 yrs, Nor allowing Roe v Wade to be damn near overturned every year!‘The Proof is in the Pudding’ by demanding Special considerations, treatment and priviledges she has cut the legs out from under OUR Quest for ‘Equality’.these S.O.B’s are camoflagued in Red & Blue and don’t give a Rats ass about Anyone else but their Own profit margins and Power status.
the Catholic Church proved it’s allegience to some other force long ago, and the Evangelicals have taken up the same ‘Warrior’ Status. what is not so obvious is those who lurk among US in the liberal/Progressive Realm. We have also been infiltrated and are being CONNED by Traitors hiding among Us

Well, I admit it. I’m ALMOST as shocked as the rest of the flock. But then, it’s been over 40 years since I’ve been even a peripheral member of it. (The flock that is). And, this is the reason why!

But I know that Outraged is right in saying that in the REAL-est of senses, this is very old news, and so if I’m at all shocked, it’s because I haven’t been paying attention. (though NOT fooled by any ‘sacredness’ of it). And the only reason I haven’t been paying attention, is because I was shocked over 40 years ago, when this breathtaking hypocrisy first displayed itself to my young mind. I was having NONE of it. Nope. Nada. None!

At some point in our lives, -different points for different people- we come to the conclusion that religion represents the polar opposite of sanity, logic, and reason, at which point the ‘choice’ becomes a no-brainer. What works best…the sanity, the logic, and the reason? Or does the authoritarian terror, chaos, and insanity of religion work best?

Meantime, the Wahabbists of the al-Qaeda types ain’t got nothin’ on our priests here, eh? And the next time one of these bozos complains about Iran’s Theocracy, they should be burned at the stake.

Actually, that whole pedophile ring of priests should have been burned at the stake.

Outraged, good to hear from you.

And yeah, this isn’t confined to Catholics. I remember when the Democrats in a congregation down in Tx got kicked out of their Baptist church for being Democrats.

I choose sanity as my communion.

E.J.

I fear only YOU are surprised/shocked at this “development”.  Religion is a top down, “our way or the highway” organization.  It’s not just Catholics, it’s ALL religions.  If you know of one that isn’t, please…by all means “enlighten” me.

This is.. in a very REAL way, old news.  It’s just that some of us haven’t been paying attention or were fooled by the “sacredness” of it all.  Now, I don’t want to sound assinine because I myself have been a very sincere beliver.  Then one day.. and I don’t recall it really, I thought, I’m consistently admonished NOT to investigate RELIGION..why?  Well, the rest is history as they say…so… Hang Tough.  INVESTIGATE.

Think big.