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Where Is the Outrage?

Posted on May 27, 2008
Guantanamo protest
AP photo / Mary Altaffer

Protesters dressed as inmates demonstrate against the Guantanamo Bay detentions in front of Manhattan Supreme Court in January 2007 in New York.

By Robert Scheer

Are we Americans truly savages or merely tone-deaf in matters of morality, and therefore more guilty of terminal indifference than venality? It’s a question demanding an answer in response to the publication of the detailed 370-page report on U.S. complicity in torture, issued last week by the Justice Department’s inspector general.

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Because the report was widely cited in the media and easily accessed as a pdf file on the Internet, it is fair to assume that those of our citizens who remain ignorant of the extent of their government’s commitment to torture as an official policy have made a choice not to be informed. A less appealing conclusion would be that they are aware of the heinous acts fully authorized by our president but conclude that such barbarism is not inconsistent with that American way of life that we celebrate.

But that troubling assessment of moral indifference is contradicted by the scores of law enforcement officers, mostly from the FBI, who were so appalled by what they observed as routine official practice in the treatment of prisoners by the United States in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo that they risked their careers to officially complain. A few brave souls from the FBI even compiled a “war crimes file,” suggesting the unthinkable—that we might come to be judged as guilty by the standard we have imposed on others. Superiors in the Justice Department soon put a stop to such FBI efforts to hold CIA agents and other U.S. officials accountable for the crimes they committed.

That this systematic torture was carried out not by a few conveniently described “bad apples” but rather represented official policy condoned at the highest level of government was captured in one of those rare media reports that remind us why the Founding Fathers signed off on the First Amendment.

“These were not random acts,” The New York Times editorialized. “It is clear from the inspector general’s report that this was organized behavior by both civilian and military interrogators following the specific orders of top officials. The report shows what happens when an American president, his secretary of defense, his Justice Department and other top officials corrupt American law to rationalize and authorize the abuse, humiliation and torture of prisoners.”


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One of those top officials, who stands revealed in the inspector general’s report as approving the torture policy, is Condoleezza Rice, who in her capacity as White House national security adviser turned away the concerns of then-Attorney General John D. Ashcroft as to the severe interrogation measures being employed. Rice, as ABC-TV reported in April, chaired the top-level meetings in 2002 in the White House Situation Room that signed off on the CIA treatment of prisoners—“whether they would be slapped, pushed, deprived of sleep or subjected to simulated drowning, called water boarding. ...” According to the report, the former academic provost of Stanford University came down on the side of simulated drowning.

As further proof that women are not necessarily more squeamish than men in condoning such practices, the report offers examples of sexual and religious denigration of the mostly Muslim prisoners by female interrogators carrying out an official policy of “invasion of space by a female.” In one recorded instance observed by startled FBI agents, a female interrogator was seen with a prisoner “bending his thumbs back and grabbing his genitals ... to cause him pain.” One of the agents testified that this was not “a case of a rogue interrogator acting on her own.” He said he witnessed a “pep rally” meeting conducted by a top Defense Department official “in which the interrogators were encouraged to get as close to the torture statute line as possible.”

That was evidently the norm, according to FBI agents who witnessed the interrogations. As The New York Times reported, “One bureau memorandum spoke of ‘torture techniques’ used by military interrogators. Agents described seeing things like inmates handcuffed in a fetal position for up to 24 hours, left to defecate on themselves, intimidated by dogs, made to wear women’s underwear and subjected to strobe lights and extreme heat and cold.”

In the end, what seems to have most outraged the hundreds of FBI agents interviewed for the report is that the interrogation tactics were counterproductive. Evidently the FBI’s long history in such matters had led to a protocol that stressed gaining the confidence of witnesses rather than terrorizing them into madness. But an insane prisoner is the one most likely to tell this president of the United States what he wants to hear: They hate us for our values.

Robert Scheer’s new book, “The Pornography of Power: How Defense Hawks Hijacked 9/11 and Weakened America,” will be released June 9 by Twelve.

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By Azia, April 27, 2011 at 5:52 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

YMMD with that aenswr! TX

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By AT, July 11, 2008 at 4:21 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Where’s The FBI in all this? Not one single comment. Are you afraid? After all, your money paid their salaries, expenses and retirement.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., June 26, 2008 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment

Mannstein, June 26

I have often identified the two extremes of totalitarianism. Though there are also excesses in the middle, the ends of Communism and Fascism are given as the excesses of the left and the right. Both are the ends of democracy gone awry. Stalin is the poster boy in my time. It was Marx and Lennin in another time. Fidel Castro is petty, but dangerous.

Hitler is the poster boy for Fascism, but Mussolini and Tojo come to mind. To the inattentive, they all look the same. To the groupers, the Vatican would be included along with seats of Muslim power and Israel. Religious totalitarianism reached its peak in times past. Ancient Egypt and other religious empires had their days.

America and Europe must fear the two of the 20th Century. Stalinism and Hitlerism had their days. Each appeals to human emotion to right wrongs detected in economics and government.

George W. Bush is experimenting with the totalitarianism of the middle ground. He raises democracy to iconic status without understanding that it is a process of cooperation and consensus, not a totalitarianism to be imposed by force upon the non-compliant. He must lean toward fascism to get the clout to impose his ‘democratic’ rule and toward communism to get the support of the clowns and fools needed to hold a democratic election in his support. Democrats could move us left with similar appeals. Republicans could move us all the way to fascism.

If Obama is elected and keeps us in the middle ground without the ‘democracy’ by force of an imperial presidency, we can move to the best the democracy has to offer. That is, human rights with justice and freedom of personal decision without harm to others. Freedom of religion falls into that category. One can believe in the Great Pumpkin without harm to anyone else so long as it is not imposed upon others by ‘democratic’ demons like George W. Bush and Dick Cheney.

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By Mannstein, June 26, 2008 at 11:59 am Link to this comment
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Everyone keeps screeching about Hitler and the Nazis. Not a word is heard about Stalin and the Communists. Does anyone even know what the situation in Germany was at the beginning of the 1930s? There was widespread malnutrition. Germans didn’t know where their next meal was comming from. Unemployment was rampant. As for the political scene one had two choices the Nazis or the Communists. Had I lived in Germany at the time I would have voted for Uncle Adolf.

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By cyrena, June 3, 2008 at 2:57 pm Link to this comment

I agree wholeheartedly Resada..this is indeed the case…(and ESPECIALLY in the Bible Belt).

Most just are not paying attention, and it doesn’t even help really, to try to BRING it to their attention!

But, therein lies the danger, because it means that they are the least prepared, for the survival modes that they will eventually need.

For that, I’m not so anxious to say ‘I told you so’ as much as I actually fear for them.

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By TAO Walker, June 3, 2008 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment

This old surviving primitive Savage will thank the at-least “....tone deaf….” Robert Scheer not to tar us free wild natural people with the brush that better befits the extremely civilized and institutionalized viciousness he seems here to be decrying.  Even a cursory reading of their bloody “history” shows that no one anywhere ever beats the domesticated peoples when it comes to the motives and methods of degenerate violence.

His own adored (but rapidly plunging into ignominious disrepute) generation of theamericanpeople, in their perennial criminal indifference to the brutal activities of their chosen “leaders,” are simply following along (deaf-dumb-and-blind, as usual) in the gory footprints of their “pioneer (derives from “peon”)” forebears.  So Mr. Scheer better watch who he’s callin’ “....savages.”


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By cyrena, June 3, 2008 at 9:25 am Link to this comment

Actually Frank, if you are registered with this site, and Carl Street is registered as well, you CAN reach each other through a Private Message system that this site has set up. (at least it used to) So, go to your control panal, and you should be able to arrange it.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., June 3, 2008 at 6:26 am Link to this comment


Thank you. This forum does not provide a link to your email address or to mine. It does not even offer an indirect for first contact. I would like to contact you. You would be unique to my collection of correspondents. In another forum, I had contact with a Jewish man living in Israel. I have lost him to the vagaries of the Internet and political bias. I would like to add you to my address book, at least temporarily, if you would not mind. If you have read many of my posts, you have encountered the fact that I support human rights and justice above all other considerations. That means that the Zionist cause that conflicts with human rights and justice are in my line of fire. It does not mean that I am anti-Semitic. It means that I do not hold Jews as any more special in the sight of God than any other people. I note that you follow a conservative Jewish custom of leaving out one third of G-d. I have never understood that. I don’t know if you are ashamed of G-d or J—s. I note also that you spell out your entire nom de Internet. You must not be ashamed of yourself, so I will post here an email address if you would make an initial contact with me. It is a blind alley for spammers, so you will get a reply with my regular email if you respond once. Please mention your register name for TruthDig. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) I am also in contact with a Holocaust survivor who is not Jewish. The Holocaust was not just for Jews. I believe that we may have common cause.

BTW Truth Dig captures the first several words of your entry for a title. Note your entry that started with “1. Hitler…” etc., when published. It was not always that way and is confusing if you do not know it.

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By Jack, June 3, 2008 at 12:00 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

we are witnessing an empire at the precipice of its fall - as portrayed in

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By Carl Street, June 2, 2008 at 9:23 pm Link to this comment

Thank you Mr. Goodman on two fronts:
1. Your remarks
2. For letting me know that I am NOT the oldest one on the site—I only have 6 decades and change to my life experience.

While I was born in the USA and have not lived behind the Iron Curtain, my family fled German militarism in the past century (unfortunately not all of us) and tales of those who fled and personal research have made me a mine shaft canary to political poison gas.

My grandmother went to her grave in the early 1980s warning me that what she had seen first hand in Germany was now taking place in the USA.  Only now that I too see the horrors rearing their ugly heads in our nation do I REALLY begin to understand how gut wrenching it must have been for family members to leave all behind.  Moreover, I now REALLY understand how some waited until too late to flee and were caught up in Die Endlösung.

Regarding “good intentions”—I am sure that you too know that if good intentions yielded good results; we would live in paradise.  Much of the needless suffering of the human race stems far less from evil intentions; than the misguided egotistical efforts of those who beleive they “know” what is best for the rest of humanity.

Imagine my annoyance to find that my posting was not only mangled; but it was done by someone who obvioously lacked the wit, education, and experience to even understand my points.  If only G-D would grant us protection from idiots and little children of all ages!

BTW, I always enjoy your posts—I knew you were not a victim of American education and culture the moment I detected your ability to combine proper English with rational thought… smile

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By Conservative Yankee, June 2, 2008 at 6:16 pm Link to this comment
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“P.S. “golden rule”=do onto others as you would have others do onto you”

The NEW Golden rule:

“He who has the gold makes the rules”

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., June 2, 2008 at 6:10 pm Link to this comment


I have worried about the trend of United States of America for some time. It started for me about 1934, when I was six years old. My school teachers were tyrants. You should have seen what they did to a couple of black kids who wound up in our school by mistake one year. I was the only white kid who played with them on the playground. You should have seen what they did to me for doing that!

Do you see much difference between ‘der fuerer’ and ‘leader of the free world’? Do you see much difference between ethnic cleansing in the American continents and ethnic cleansing in Israel? Once the races are blended in America, will we be the master race to dominate New Israel? We are already talking about leaving the United Nations by forming another ‘guarantor of democracy’ separate from that internalional body.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., June 2, 2008 at 5:59 pm Link to this comment

Carl Street:

Thanks for this. I have made the same mistake. I sometimes did not log in before writing my comment. That assures close scrutiny of your post and possible mischief to its content by well intentioned social definers.

I fear that your moderate view and mine sometimes come across as strident. The highest ideals of American democracy come across as strident to the average American. This nation contains a collection of bigots intent upon foisting our own bigotry onto the rest by outspending in elections, out shouting the opposition in the caucus, out preaching the dissident in the church, and raising kids who are so bent on their own selfish interests that they grow up with the same attitude.

I know what I am talking about. I have been in every phase of the process in my 8 decades of life on this planet in the United States of America and in the world at large. I have lived for extensive time behind the Iron Curtain, in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, in war zones of Korea and Vietnam, and around my family table.

I have differences with my brothers, sisters, parents, neighbors, and friends. I am an old white guy married to a foreigner. I am not Christian, Jewish or atheist. I am politically independent and sometimes abstain from voting. I contribute money to my favorite candidate and advocate by word of mouth.

I would support the International Criminal Court to try political leaders who cannot be prosecuted anywhere else, and outlaw kangaroo courts worldwide. George W. Bush and Dick Cheney would be the next cases.

Thanks for your comment. It is a winner. Next time log in first. And dampen it down with some sweeteners and humor.

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By Resada, June 2, 2008 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment
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Most people I know simply arent paying that much attention. They watch a minimal amount of news on major networks[or none at all] and pretty much believe what the media tells them to believe.[if they think about it at all] Many only get information filtered through their pastors on Sunday morning[I live in the Bible belt]  Most are simply so involved with their own lives, they arent paying attention

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By Carl Street, June 2, 2008 at 9:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

My article was titled:


It was NOT titled: “Hitler and the Nazis”

Please fix this and stop rewriting.  If you do NOT like what I write, do NOT publish it.

BTW, I AM registered…

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By Carl Street, June 2, 2008 at 8:35 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

1. Hitler and the Nazis did not START with Auschwitz, Buchenwald, etc.—they ramped up to it.  History shows there is FAR MORE danger of a trend line of currently favorable or semi-favorable circumstances going bad; than there is in a trend line of bad circumstances going good.  Just because we are NOT currently at the gates of the train stations and ovens does NOT mean that we should take any refuge or comfort in the present circumstances.

2. One of the reasons the Nazis succeeded for as long as they did in operating their death camps is that they were able to conceal their existence largely because many who could have; SHOULD have known did NOT wish to know.  While the Geheim Stats Polezei (GeStaPo) did curtail their revelation in some cases; the sad fact is MOST of the time such direct action was unnecessary—anyone speaking of them was immediately shouted down by their neighbors as unpatriotic (conspiracy theorist?).  To quote one German WWII patriot, “there could NOT be any such camps; for if there were it would be reported in the news”.  My point is that You and I do NOT and CANNOT know WHAT is REALLY being done.  That, in fact, there could be pogroms, death camps, and Guantanamo COULD be an Auschwitz.

3. I wish to avoid any misunderstanding of my position—I am neither for nor against Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Baptists, Buddhists, etc. etc. I AM in favor or rational and just treatment of ALL members of the human race regardless of their race, particular beliefs (or lack of same); philosophies, etc.  Consequently, I abhor any and all injustice and do NOT believe in the popular misguided theory that injustice can be justified by circumstances.  To accept this latter false precept would mean that I am NOT opposed to injustice; rather, that only I perhaps place a higher price than average on its implementation. In short , it is hypocrisy and a LIE.

4. ONLY FOOLS believe that laws are passed to persecute others.  MANY Germans who cheered the persecution of the Jews early on ultimately wound up on the wrong end of Nazi tyranny themselves—discovering too late that they, in fact, had cut their own throats.  In order to ensure a safe world for myself, my family, my children, etc. I must therefore recognize at all times that ANY tyranny against ANY human being be they black, white, green, Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, Baptist, Buddhist, Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Communist, etc., etc., etc. ultimately THREATENS ME.  The mere fact that my particular skin color, religious beliefs, philosophy, etc. happens to be in vogue is an accident of history; and NOT some measure of its intrinsic value.  AND, it is ONLY a matter of time before one or more of those factors will become politically “unfashionable” and all that implies in terms of personal security.  Thus ethical justice for all is ultimately the MOST PRACTICAL means of survival; not just some kind of pontificating moral stance.

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By Mark, June 1, 2008 at 10:26 pm Link to this comment
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Along with the author, and some of the commentators I too am pessimistic of the future. The leadership of this country has committed such heinous crimes, and no revolution has happened. Absolutely nothing has changed. And all this started even long before GW. What will it take, what kind of monstrous scenario would have to come about before there was a real revolution?? Will they have to nuke another nation while instituting martial law here? I bet half the US population would even go for it if they did that…(Remember all those evangelicals who believe Bush was put here on earth to bring about the armageddon and the second coming???)

But I do wonder about one thing…So let’s assume that the US continues its policies of economic and military imperialism. One day, inevitably, the US will cease to be top dog and on that day the world will unite against us. I am as certain of that as I am that the sky is blue. Now Assuming that war doesn’t end in a nuclear holocaust for all, sooner or later I expect to be seeing foreign boots on our soil. And they WILL look for those responsible for all the wars, bombings, torture,the sponsors of all the coups, death squads,“color revolutions”, and terrorists, etc. And I’m sure their trials of our leaders will be just as “fair” as OUR trials and executions of THEIR leaders have been.

But what I’m really wondering is this.. Will they feel that we, the people, also share in this responsibility? I mean we are after all a “democracy”. And if the majority of voters did not support the crimes committed by our leaders then wouldn’t we have voted them all out? I feel that we are responsible.. Not all of us, but certainly more than 50%.

And so will they, the foreign troops, return all these things which we have been doing to others for decades, back onto us (the people) in order to teach us the “golden rule”? Will they hold us accountable for the actions of our government? Will the US of 2020 be the Germany of 1920?

P.S. “golden rule”=do onto others as you would have others do onto you

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By cyrena, June 1, 2008 at 7:47 am Link to this comment

“I haven’t heard any of the candidates state flatly that they will discontinue the practice of torture, and since it was created by executive fiat, it can be rescinded by executive fiat.  Are you planning on voting for a torturer?”


I heard Obama say this…(that torture is NEVER allowable, under ANY circumstances). So yes, he’s the one that has.

None of them however, (including him) have committed to ending the death penalty in this country, so he needs to be called on that.

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By Conservative Yankee, May 31, 2008 at 6:56 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

A Nazisque view If I ever heard one.  How many “Americans’ do you know? Are any of them Chilean? Mexican? Canadian? Are they the Children being shot in Brazil? Are they the mothers of the Disappeared in Argentina?  The poor Colombians hiking northward to find work?  We’re talking well over a Billion people here, do you know them all?

Maybe you were referring to the 300million plus people who live within the borders of the USA? Common mistake, everybody does it. but even here within the States there are people as diverse as the blueberry raker’s who keep all their worldly possessions in their car, and Steve Forbes who has no idea what he owns.

No lumping folks together not an appropriate academic exercise.

Might want to read “Nobody loves a Drunken Indian”  by Clair Huffaker

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., May 31, 2008 at 6:38 am Link to this comment

No! Not ALL Americans. Not me! I have been pointing this out for several years. Find my comments in Truth Dig. America is not all perfection of democracy. The concept is good, but the practice is tainted by the same kind of people that put Hitler in power in Germany in the 30s. The Bush administration is a perfect example. Except for the minimal operation of the constitution Bush would appoint Dick Cheney as ‘Der Fuerer’. Check your history of the Weimar Republic and note that the President of Germany, Hindenberg, appointed Adolph Hitler to a position to override the constitution. It was all legal and legitimate. The German people shouted approval. Not all Germans, mind you, but enough to make it stick. In a democracy it only takes 50% plus one to have a majority. It takes only about 75% to override the decent 25% who would oppose it. In Germany the 25% were silenced in time to kill millions of people Hitler did not like. Republicans are running scared this election for good reason. This is the first time since Lincoln to change the way things are done in Washington. I am in the 25% today who oppose GWB, JMcL, and HRC to keep Washington Politics in power.

If it turns out that I am wrong again, I will continue ‘til I die to fight for our constitution and the promise of democracy in America. Join me today!

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By Luke R, May 31, 2008 at 2:20 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The United States of America is set on a self interested path in much the same way that Nazi Germany was. It also doesnt’ matter if you claim to be republican or democrat. In reality your all American, self centered, exposed to the same “values” that American culture upholds as important and thus all tarnished with Americanisms varying only by degrees. You will ALL be judged one day. Whether that occurs in 1 year, 10 years or 100 years, judgement is inevitable. I don’t wish you ALL luck. I simply look forward to the day. Have a good life republican, democrats and independants (Americans alike).

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By Marc, May 30, 2008 at 5:06 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)


Direct Democracy

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By Leefeller, May 30, 2008 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment

My dad said we should send the Bush and generals to the front lines and the war would stop very quickly. Maybe Bush and Chaney could spend some time in the Green zone instead of Texas, such a nice vacation spot for Vietnam war evaders don’t your think?

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By cyrena, May 30, 2008 at 2:48 pm Link to this comment

According to the email, Cindy isn’t running until the November election, and now of course, I don’t know which position she would be running for. (Actually, Cindy Sheehan probably doesn’t live in the 8th district, because she’s further north and inland).

When I get a minute, I’ll dig up the email again, and see if I can understand what Cindy will be doing in the November elections. I only remember that it was specifically addressed that she wouldn’t be running until November, and this is for a June 3 election that we have here. I’ve just sent in my own absentee ballot, and we are electing Congressional reps on Tuesday, as well as the California State Senate reps and other local positions.

So, it remains to be seen now I guess, which office Cindy is looking at. But you’re right, when she first planned to run for office, it was announced as Nancy Pelosi’s seat.

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By cyrena, May 30, 2008 at 2:40 pm Link to this comment

Nope, you’re not wrong Leefeller. I’ve noticed it myself. Too bad I failed to keep an most gawd-awful email from a woman who commented on the torture when it was first revealed, way back at the beginning of the captures that brought the detainees to Guantanamo.

This was a woman residing in and running an interior decorating business somewhere in Georgia. She claimed that anything done to those “Arabs” at Gitmo was perfectly acceptable, (never mind that the ones detainees being referenced were South Asian, and NOT Arab) considering how Saudi Arabia wouldn’t even allow Christians into their country.

I vomited upon reading it, and destroyed it immediately after regaining my composure.

I don’t know if she was a Hillary supporter or not, but I’ve never heard any Hillary supporters concern themselves with issues like war and torture.

So yeah…I noticed that as well.

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By velvel in decatur, May 30, 2008 at 12:04 pm Link to this comment
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Non credo:  And the US is responsible for all the sins of all the countries of the world?  I can imagine why I did not mention Israel, Lebanon, and the Palestinians—-none of them are members of the United States military.  None of them are brass hats in the Pentagon.  None of them have gone native in the State Department.
Ga:  Yes, friend, I have been in the service.  The war was as all wars seem to be:  planned on the basis of the last war by folks in white shirts with pocket protectors and paid for by the folks in uniform.
This one was (no surprise) bases on deception from the very beginning by folks who had little idea how to do anything well.  Reminds me of the illfated attempt during the Carter admin to get the release of hostages:  inadequate intel, inadequate planning, disregard for “what ifs” (like sandstorms, maybe).  And the folks who took it in the neck were those on the ground.
And whose fault?  Top down.  It is always
“We the unwilling, led by the ungrateful, are doing the impossible.
We’ve done so much, for so long, with so little,
that we are now qualified to do something with nothing.”

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By Leefeller, May 30, 2008 at 8:08 am Link to this comment

Never mind when you venture outside of your mind, you may be easily lost. Peeves and rants can be good for the soul, the being or whatever, but when you come back to reality, life is ongoing hopefully refreshed and anew.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., May 30, 2008 at 8:00 am Link to this comment

Have you urged repeal of the laws of nature? Fortunately, the genes that control homosexuality have little chance to perpetuate the species, Homo sexualis. You could try cloning, haplo-genetic males, or just use cuttings to propagate yourself. Pollination could be tried, but that has a record of success in the flowering plants. I note that some birds depost their eggs in another species of bird’s nest. You could deposit your sperm in a sperm bank and let some unsuspecting normal female yearning for a normal child get fertilized by you. She would probably join a cause to advance gay marriage when she discovers that her darling child is gay.

Gays and others with abnormal or counterproductive natures or tendencies fill a vital need. They are examples to us that everyone is not normal. That should raise a hint that I may not be normal myself. Certainly, I am not normal if the norm is to promote asexual sex between same sex partners. I might as well masturbate. But, I would rather dream of Jeanie with the light brown hair. That way Jeanie need not mother my ill begotten kids, or even know that I love her. I don’t even have to redirect some of my hard earned money to feed her while she watches soap operas for a living.

Thanks for you informative comment.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., May 30, 2008 at 7:44 am Link to this comment

The peeves are not pets. They followed me home. I refused to feed them, but they refuse to go away. They hang out at the back door of my mind and bark at the neighbors. They yelp every time I kick one of them out of my way to make room for some venture outside my mind. When I do go out of my own mind, one of those peeves bites me with a comment to my comments on TruthDig. Never mind that the commenter is gay, Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Catholic, or Unitarian.

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By Leefeller, May 30, 2008 at 7:03 am Link to this comment

Do you not see as I,  the absence of Hillary supporter posters when it comes to issues, like the war and torture, issues?

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By Leefeller, May 30, 2008 at 5:43 am Link to this comment

Frank Goodman, Sr.,

Nice list of pet peeves. No,  I am not mad yet, just bitter.  Your attack on gay families should have been followed with the Republican attack on illegals and I am surprised you did not finish with how god only supports Christians, the real true special Christians.

Something seems to be missing from your list, the war, but your sexual fetish seems to over power logic.

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By Conservative Yankee, May 30, 2008 at 5:19 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By Non Credo, May 29 at 11:39 am #
Re: Re: Securitarianism is the problem

“Well, that was stupid. “

You think?  Well then it sure belongs on this site!

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By cyrena, May 30, 2008 at 2:02 am Link to this comment

Ok ya’ll; here’s something you can do if you’re feeling down.

This just came through from The Pen. This is another crucial effort at the local level, that ultimately affects us all. Shirley Golub is running to replace Nancy Pelosi in California’s 8th District. Nancy has been ‘off the table’ when she’s needed to be ‘on the table’ and she’s still handing out war bucks, no matter what tribe she comes up with to spin it otherwise.

Now, you don’t have to be a California voter to help us get this message to everybody there, and fast. So…check out the link, and do whatever you can..

In her final TV ad challenging Nancy Pelosi for the Democratic primary congressional nomination in San Francisco, Shirley Golub defines the stakes for what they are. ONLY defeating Pelosi on June 3 will stop the House, the people’s House, from surrendering hundreds of billions more for the indefensible occupation of Iraq, which the Senate has already chickened out on. You can see this dynamic new ad on this page.

Stop The Occupation Motivational Video:

We need to do everything we can to inspire every possible voter to come out and vote on primary election day June 3 in California. And this is the ad to do it. It is dynamic, it is engaging, and it is a direct call to action for people to get out of their chairs, and off their couches, to actually save their OWN lives by getting out and voting.

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By William Lewis, May 29, 2008 at 11:10 pm Link to this comment

To Mr. Scheer,

I just read your article. The first thing that struck me was your use of “we.” All through the hell that has been taking place these past lethal almost eight years since bush has been in office, I have heard and read this very wrong generalization.
As if all Americans think the same.

Why did “we” go to war?

The American people, diverse as they are had as much to say about going to war as they would of if their government were a dictatorship.

Why are “we” so apathetic regarding torture?
Why are “we” not outraged?

I cannot speak for anyone aside from the people I come in contact with everyday. “We” are outraged, however outrage is only a word. The feeling that “we” have, with few exceptions, goes far beyond that single word.

My question to you Mr. Scheer is this: What would you have us do?

We have experienced the efficacy of out voting process.

We know the brutal power that the politician’s puppet military wields. And I have no doubt that if they were given orders to turn on us, they would, since killing, and torturing innocent people seems to be within a significant number of their capacities.

What’s the difference? Killing innocent people here or elsewhere, it is the same in my book. Since I do not believe that the Afghan people or the Iraqi people are any less human beings than we are.

What would you have us do, I’ll ask again?

Go beat on a missile silo?
Write a letter?
Write a book?
Go march in the street?

I think you should be more careful with your use of “we.”

You could say that you are writing about your friends and acquaintances, but please count me out of your generalizations.

And please be aware that “we” the people of the US do not all think and act the same, and that yes, a significant part of “us” are truly outraged.
I’m not writing this to watch my words bounce off the wall. You have elevated yourself into a position where you actually have a forum for your words. Please tell all of us now, what you think we should do. I’m very curious; and please don’t ask us to write our congressman.

The hope that “we” have now for a glimmering of light for this humiliated country is Barack Obama, and by some miracle, he will live long enough to turn this avalanche of hopelessness around.

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By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, May 29, 2008 at 6:46 pm Link to this comment

I think many of us were disillusioned after the 2006 election.  I’m sure you’ve checked out   They keep trying.  I keep in touch with my reps in congress.  But, it just seems like impeachment is really off the table and won’t make it back on.

This is the one thing, IMHO, that will show the people’s involvement in gov. and it’s not happening.  One commenter said a while back about European govs. being afraid of the people vs. Americans being afraid of their gov. and I agree.  How can we ever change this, if it would be good to change it, if we impeach for lying about a sex act but not for failure to honor your oath of office?

But, let’s keep the faith and keep trying.

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By hippy pam, May 29, 2008 at 5:38 pm Link to this comment


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By cyrena, May 29, 2008 at 4:30 pm Link to this comment


Your point is extremely well taken. Scared silent is exactly what many Americans are. I’d never considered the Stockholm Syndrome as an appropriate term for it, but it works just fine.

And, having somehow developed an immunity to the ‘illness’ myself, (at great expense…a series of nearly life ending vaccinations) I can see that it is not an easy thing to ‘cure’ our fellow citizens. Unfortunately, they are avoiding the pain of the vaccination. This is understandable of course, (and definitely human nature) but it sure diminishes the chances of surviving the illness.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t still try to disburse the vaccinations, but I admit that it’s already too late for many.

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By Leefeller, May 29, 2008 at 2:16 pm Link to this comment

Nice song “Be Happy” and if only we could, except anything except that our unelected leaders will make sure it gets worse before that ever happens.  Yes, I know, cynic me. 

Hope you are correct Dr. Knowitall, Phd Phd, and I will happily accept being wrong.  Thinking of how happy I was after the 2006 election, only to get smacked down with “impeachment is off the table”.Fooled again. 

My opinion is they do what they want, and we pay for it in more ways than one. 

A change in the air does seem apparent, but how much change remains to be seen.  Usually my glass is half full, but it seems yours is instead. 

Death co sponsored by us, continues from those in power seems to still be going well for opportunists.  Boy, I am going to give up being negative it stinks?

Be happy.

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By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, May 29, 2008 at 1:35 pm Link to this comment

I sense things are changing.  Cyrena and I agree that the damage the Bush administration has done to this country has finally caught the attention of a very large # of Americans. There are signs. 

Bush is finding it increasingly more difficult to man/woman a military.  Young people are on to him.

Voters spoke in 2006.

Bush induced hard times are upon us. 

Local elections seem to indicate an assault on anything neocon.

The best the conservatives can come up with is John McSame, not good enough just an election or two ago.
And the republican party is in a shambles.

Bush is bringing change we can believe in through the back door but he doesn’t know that. 

The dems, if they know what’s good for them, should take a lesson from this.  The American people are waking up, if only slowly, but they are awakening just the same.  They’re being hit in the wallet and that’s the best NoDoze there is.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., May 29, 2008 at 12:37 pm Link to this comment

So long as we have our 50 inch plasma TV, our 19 inch flat screen LCD monitor for our multi gigabyte computer, our laptop, our cell phone, and our gas guzzler, we can be controlled. For that is the epitome of life for Americans.

Never mind that we are on our third marriage, with a family of brats, each with a different father or mother, or some foster kids. Never mind that many of the ‘families’ have no marriage certificate to support the legal obligations in the family courts of the land. Never mind that the most cogent debate is not about traditional families, but about gay or lesbian families of the same sex and their right to adopt some human pets for the non-traditional home. Monkeys are too expensive and dogs do not live long enough. Never mind that the human pets reach the age of 18 with a fiction of legal rights to commit crimes of their own against humanity.

Never mind that the institution of higher learning teaches basket weaving courses that constitute an education. Never mind that our great grandfathers failed ‘grade’ school because they could not do math or parse an English sentence. Never mind that we elect the ‘Leader of the Free World’ in a distorted poll designed to prevent the will of the people, if they had a will of their own. Never mind that we try to teach that beating kids is counter productive, but that denying them TV and ice cream will do the trick. Never mind that ten year olds are having their first experimentation in sex and reproduction techniques in uncontrolled bedrooms and play pens.

Never mind that education is job training, not study of western civilization and philosophy with a little logic and math thrown in. Never mind that teachers (Note Jay Walk on Jay Leno show) cannot recognize names and places in the world of their own lives, let alone long dead thinkers of the past, or obscure professors who lack tenure or recognition because their papers fail in peer review.

Never mind that Louis Pasture had no advanced standing in the scientific community of his time. Never mind that Charles Darwin had no Ph.D. degree. Or that Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle were not deans of philosophy in the Greek universities of the time.

Are you mad yet? Are you mad yet? Are you mad yet? Are you mad yet? Are you mad yet?

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By Fadel Abdallah, May 29, 2008 at 12:21 pm Link to this comment

Wendy & just joe:

As an addition to my response to your crude bigotry and racism, it is a well-established fact that Norway has the highest suicide rate in the world, why don’t you blame that on Somali immigrants too?!

To just joe: you came to the defense of Wendy and rudely volunteered to become her interpretor, and that makes you both a bigot racist, pretencious and a coward. I am in command of five languages and I have books published in these languages including English, so your imaging that I misunderstood her because of my English, tells how ignorant and backward you are. I have even taught English to stupid people like you!

Now you know why you are a racist and a bigot, but I need to explain to you why you’re a coward. If the Zionists are so much in control of the U.S.(which I partly agree with, but I am glad you didn’t say that Muslims do) then what have you done to liberate it?! Wining the way Wendy and you are doing and trying to find scapegoats tells me that you’re miserably frustrated and want to blame your problems on “orientals.” This is precisely what Hitler did.

I would recommend to both of you the comment of felicity to Wendy below. She rightly said that human civilization started in the Orient, and if it wasn’t for that, the so-called “Occidentals” would have remained the savages they were and continue to be in many respects! (Inquisition, Holocaust, Crusades, two World Wars, Colonialism; do I need to mention more about the inglorious Occidentals’ contributions to human civilization?!)

Both of you, go and get an education if you want to be counted among humans living in the 21st century!

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By mister_god, May 29, 2008 at 12:00 pm Link to this comment

Where is the outrage? Good question, and the answer is: nowhere—in some individual perhaps but not collectively. Americans are a dictator’s dream: We as a people are so gullible, so ignorant, so docile, so domesticated, and thus so governable. And i am not talking just about this torture issue, i am talking about ALL other issues that are supposed to make people mad as hell, but still they are not mad, and they allow themselves to be trampled upon like ants by the system. We must wonder WHY ???? And when rallies and protests happen, they are like sunday afternoon picnics: No shock to the system at all. Do we have the guts to disrupt life as usual, and have massive demonstrations on weekdays instead of weekends when thay have NO impact at all?
God have mercy on us and wake us up from this drugged coma.

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By felicity, May 29, 2008 at 10:56 am Link to this comment

Your post, which I really appreciate, reminds me of the ancient definition, perhaps justification for,  government: A body in place to protect us from each other and from ourselves. 

Whatever we choose to call it, whether the name of it ends in a ‘cy’ or a ‘ch,’  when it fails to live up to one or both of those mandates, it must go.  Its existence can no longer be justified.

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By A Khokar, May 29, 2008 at 9:51 am Link to this comment

You own the court; you give the judgement;

Pass the orders; they way you like!

But only remember this that you may not escape the absolute justice which rests with Him,…the Almighty God.

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By manonfyre, May 29, 2008 at 9:44 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Storm the White House?

Wexler and Conyers, et al (God love them), seem only to spin their wheels.

Recent testimony before Congress by Marjorie Cohn, David Luban, and Phillipe Sands (calling for continued hearings and MAYBE the assignment of an independent procecutor) was heartening, but . . .

This crew is inured to our temerity.

“The aide said that guys like me were ‘in what we call the reality-based community,’ which he defined as people who ‘believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.’ I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ‘That’s not the way the world really works anymore,’ he continued. ‘We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.’”

They are daring us to call their bluff. 

And I’m with Cohn.  Overshadowing their monstrous torture policy (google: homocides of detainees in US custody), Bush & Co. should be subject to the indictments of the Nuremberg Trials: CONSPIRACY to wage aggressive war; WAGING aggressive war . . . 

Saddam was a horrible creature.  And the international community should-have, could-have, would-have dealt with him.  But his real “threat” to US/British “vital interests?”  He wouldn’t do deals with Exxon and British Petroleum (and a few other Western oil giants).  He nationalized their their once-dominate holdings (those of the “Iraq Petroleum Company” consortium) in 1975, with compensation, and specifically excluded Exxon and BP from getting to play, any longer, in any Iraqi oil field games.  And as the revelations from Cheney’s pre-invasion Energy Task Force plainly spell out, Saddam was defiantly continuing to do deals with “foreign suitors”—selling “our” oil in one huge concession after the next!

Now, more than a million human lives have been extinguished; 4-5 millions more are “internally displaced” or have fled the country . . . 

“Withdraw?”  “Re-deploy?”  “Coalition forces” should be expelled from Iraq in abject shame and ignomy, and our “leaders” put on trial for crimes against peace and humanity.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., May 29, 2008 at 9:42 am Link to this comment

The constitution of the United States was designed to control the beasts among us. We are no different than the human beasts before us and will not improve soon enough to escape the inevitable. Sooner or later we will go through the process of purification in an uprising of a leader of the better qualities.

The pre-revolutionary American thinkers who came up with the Declaration of Independence and the constitution were a quantum leap in Western Civilization. The American State Papers contain the rational and the reason for our constitution and form of government. But, they do not identify a better spirit or a better human being in our people.

In every nation of people on Earth, there exist individuals, both with and without leadership qualities who could commit themselves to help carry out a Holocaust, a Nakba, or to support a Count Dracula regime. Democracy does not protect us from that. Germany put Hitler into power under provisions of the constitution of the Weimar Republic. Weimar Republic was a child of Western Civilization after World War I, as a device in democracy to prevent the rise of a German belligerency that brought on that war. It failed and a repetition of history was needed to teach the lesson failed.

Our need is for protection from our own terrorists in government rather than protection from those who would perpetrate terror upon us from foreign sources. There is a mindset of all government employees from the janitor in the Pentagon to the presiding officer in the Oval Office, that they are somehow in place to correct the rest of us.

The constitution allows us to elect and to lead our political servants, not to raise them to be our masters and directors. A nation that could officialize slavery, ethnic cleansing to rid us of the ‘savages’ that were here before us to make room for the European ‘savages’ who replaced them, and could drop two nuclear devices that destroyed two Japanese cities, needs more than a piece of paper to control us.

Democracy can put a Hitler into place, a George W. Bush, or a Hamas, Hezbolah, or a GOP. Who elected the first king of England? Who elevated that band of butchers to power? The only legitimate power in democracy is the power of human rights, justice, with freedom and privacy. Government should protect minorities from majorities. Every citizen of America is a minority of ONE.

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By felicity, May 29, 2008 at 9:35 am Link to this comment

There is something to be said for proximity. 

Dead American bodies from Afghanistan and Iraq are delivered to Dover in the proverbial dead-of-night.  Our of sight and therefore out of mind.

The Gulf War and this so-called War in Iraq are ‘modern’ wars - that is they consist of surgical strikes the nature of which numb us to the agony of war. (I still remember the light-show staged on CNN when we bombed during the Gulf War.)

Notice that our torture facilities are off-shore.  Were they just down the street, could we be so complacent.

I continue to think that the primary ‘horror’ of 9/11 was its proximity to us and ours.

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By Conservative Yankee, May 29, 2008 at 9:33 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Good thing Mrs O’Leary’s cow wasn’t Jewish, or the Jews would be blamed for EVERYTHING!

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By Leefeller, May 29, 2008 at 9:08 am Link to this comment

Just as Hillary has indicated she will do something at the DNC. Bush and company may promote something to take the heat off their incompetence and outright lies before they leave office.

Ruthless, heatless and disdain for the people of this nation and the world.  Opportunism and power is all they seek, get out of their way, we see it in the White House and we see it in Hillary.  She would fill the void with more void, otherwise the differences would be subtle as not to be noticed.

Even if Obama becomes president, we may not see any difference at all, except the fact our President would be able to speak in the English language. I have hope for Obama’s sincerity,  but it may only be a pipe dream.
Lies promoting the war should be our main concern but are not. Torture is only one tool of distraction and atrocity used by our great leaders, to confuse the ignorant.  Demonizing the people of the mideast is always done to create an enemy and enable acceptance of torture.  The list goes on to avoid cover ups and real issues. 

Once in a while a poster on TD lists all the grievances of our special interest government, a refreshing reminder of atrocities forgotten, especially as the list lengthens.

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By Tuff Love, May 29, 2008 at 8:52 am Link to this comment

In Scheer’s “Even the FBI is Outraged….” he suggests two possibilities for any American who is unaware of U.S. torture policy and the ensuing controversy: 1. that they “have made a choice not to be informed” or that they “conclude that such barbarism is not inconsistent with that American way of life that we celebrate.”
I suggest another possibility for what seems like apathy or a lack of outrage by the Average Joe/Jane and our Congressional leaders; that a successful campaign has been carried out over the last 40- 50 years that has created an American citizenry that is not “fat, dumb and happy” but is fat, ignorant and afraid. We are suffering a nationwide epidemic of the “Stockholm Syndrome.” Our terrifying captors control many who hold office and now control the media and the information we receive. Unless our fellow citizens can be “cured” by those who are immune or have overcome the “illness” there is little hope of stopping the evil purposes of our “captors”.

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By RyanHartman, May 29, 2008 at 7:48 am Link to this comment

Those of us who are informed and disgusted need to keep doing everything in our power to A- make sure everyone else knows and cannot escape what is going on and B- end all the crimes that are being committed in our names.

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By Jane, May 29, 2008 at 7:15 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

is the FBI part of the government?. just like John Ashcroft who, after a story in the news that the FBI’s computer system was outdated, gave the FBI 700 millions extra (tax to you and I) to updated its computer system or used them to illegally engaged on spying on the American people instead of protecting them.

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By Gonnuts, May 29, 2008 at 6:56 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Everyone is waiting for “the election” to save us - let me clue you in to the fact that this administration has no intention of handing over power to anyone that will remotely threaten them. There are still 6 months in which they can do untold damage, even to the point of suspending elections, or manipulating them once again to assure their safety and allow for their continued carnage.

And don’t think for a moment that even if Obama should become POTUS that he wouldn’t give a blanket pardon to these cretins in the name of “healing” and “moving forward”.

We CAN’T wait - if action is to be taken TAKE IT NOW! Call your so-called representatives, not once - but EVERYDAY, and bug everyone you know to do the same. Talk to people, family, friends, strangers, while your waiting in line, with your date, at a bar, at parties, get them to make promises to call, write or e-mail their reps.

Actives, it’s time to take it to the next level. Peaceful civil disobedience needs to be intensified. We need to tell them where they can stick their “free speech zones”. Peaceful disruption of public events should become common.

Those of you who are shy - give money to those that will carry your outrage for you into harms way.

Those of you “in the system” - stop! Think of becoming Whistle-blowers, you are under no obligation to follow orders that are immoral.

One thing is for certain, it is long OVER-DUE that WE THE PEOPLE quit counting on someone else to see that things get done. And we sure as hell can’t wait another 6 months.

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By leequinn, May 29, 2008 at 6:26 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Check out what the next President thinks about torture:

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By Gonnuts, May 29, 2008 at 6:26 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Unless of course bush attacks Iran, which I give a 99% chance he will, and if we don’t stop him, it won’t be just suspected “terraust-sst” that will be tortured, it will be us. 

It’s time we ALL did something meaningful, and not just once, but everyday, to stop this madness.

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By hippy pam, May 29, 2008 at 5:39 am Link to this comment


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By Conservative Yankee, May 29, 2008 at 5:07 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Harry Truman promised to Bomb North Korea and China, IF
Barry Goldwater promised to Bomb Vietnam “...back into the stone age.” Richard Nixon promised to bomb “any country which interferes with our objectives in South East Asia. Ronald Reagan promised to turn Iran into “A large lake” (I just assumed he meant with a large bomb) Bill Clinton Promised to Bomb Iraq, IF, and bomb Somalia IF…

I have to ask SteveL,; exactly what year did you begin learning about history, 1995?

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By cyrena, May 29, 2008 at 3:09 am Link to this comment

SteveL…have you been in a coma for the past 8 years?

No, NOT the first time in history. Now many they haven’t all made these PROMISES in such explict language, such as ‘we’ll just obliterate them’ but rest assured, the bombs have been flying for a long time now, and GW has given the 70 million population of Iran and others, many, many, ‘warnings’ beginning with his long ago SOU that designated them as part of the Axis of Evil.

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By Noah Juan Juneau, May 29, 2008 at 12:08 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Capitalism Murdered Democracy in a drive-by shooting!

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By banjobailey close91, May 28, 2008 at 11:51 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

As many posters have already noted, this country IS outraged.  People everywhere have done everything they can think of to protest this administration.
  Because the Republican control is SO overwhelming, everyone gets nowhere.
Our only real remedy is the election.  And when November comes, we will see a massive turnout of outraged, fed up, Americans and we will turn out these criminals.

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By cyrena, May 28, 2008 at 10:48 pm Link to this comment

Thanks SlimTim. You make very excellent points. One of the reasons that the Civil Rights Movement lost it’s own steam, was for reasons that you cite here. Too many ‘unique outcries’ with varied ‘sub-interests’ that developed from the main.

As for hte chaos and confustion, that is all very, very intentional, coming from the very, very top. Chaos prevents any sort of stability, and that’s the only way that a Fascist regime can gain control.

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By Fadel Abdallah, May 28, 2008 at 9:05 pm Link to this comment

Towards an “Outrage Revolution”!

Most of the people posting here are already outraged or have been outraged for at least eight years, like myself. Some are hopeful that their own outrage is an indication that change will come. Those are obviously the optimistic ones.

Robert Scheer, however, is lamenting the lack of enough outrage at the atrocities and travesties of justice done by our own government. This lamentation implies that there aren’t enough outraged citizens to effect a change for the positive. This also means that he is pessimistic, and I happen to agree with him.

According to the latest census, we are 300 million
unequal and sadly divided Americans. The question then is, “How many out of this number we need to reach a reasonable quota to bring about an “outrage revolution”?! Is two million enough? Can we muster 5, 6, 7 or 10 millions? This is in my opinion the minimum number you need to bring about a revolutionary change by marching on the White House. If we don’t have any of these numbers, then we should shut up and accept our fate with our “democratic monkey tyrants”, while hoping and praying that the merciful God will send us some beautiful Houris to liberate us!

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By SteveL, May 28, 2008 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment

This is the first time in history that major parts candidates are promising to bomb another country.  Unreal!

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By Bobay 4, May 28, 2008 at 8:31 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

As an American, it saddens me to think that our govt. would condone and allow torture in any form. It flys in the face of progress and diminishes the human spirit. However reading the comments posted here gives me hope for a better future for everybody here in America and in the world.

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By cyrena, May 28, 2008 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment

Paolo…there’s an old fashioned term for this…so old that we miss it…

“..As a libertarian, my view is that we all have to stop giving our blind allegiance to the state, whether it is run by D’s or R’s…”

That blind allegiance doesn’t happen by accident…it’s called NATIONALISM. Every single Authoritarian regime who has ever developed an Authoritarian regime, FIRST INSTILLS THIS…Nationalism. The individual is marginalized, the ‘classes’ are converted to ‘masses’ and OBEDIENCE to the state through blind allegiance is instilled. Dissent is punished immediately, (to let everybody else know what will become of them if they try the same).

So, this ‘cult’ is no different than any other Fascist or other regimes that have come along in our history. The most OPEN/Democratic societies are the easiest to take over in this manner, because we are the ones who least expect it, and don’t even see it when it happens.

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By cyrena, May 28, 2008 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment

Indeed Non Credo, it WAS a bomb that had gone off. Several of them.

Meantime, I know a person who actually admitted that she slept right through the whole thing. (in NYC, on 9/11/2001)

Now, as much as I hate to say it, (though others have pointed it out here) that ‘sleeping right through it’ has been the case for millions of Americans, for the past 7 years. Not all, since we are here. But yeah…a whole bunch of us have slept right through the overthrow of our government, and are not at all unlike the good Germans of the 1930’s, who simply turned their heads the other way.
What of those who actually HELPED. They were just ‘following orders’.

Then we’ve got those who regularly appear on this site, sprouting how it’s ‘all good’ and pre-emption is just fine, (Marshall) since we’re supposed to be defending our ‘national interests’ no matter where on the globe that may be, or how many people need to be destroyed to accomplish that.

Anyway, I’m sure glad you survived that event.

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By Notorious, May 28, 2008 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Nice post Nahida, I feel your pain. It’s sad that the only way we can get our message across is to psychologically bitch-slap some reality into people with the TRUTHS of what really goes on when the LIES are put into place to cover up the terrorist acts.

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By SlimTim, May 28, 2008 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Outrage is there, howerver slow due to many other items of wrong-doing that don’t make mainstream conciousness. It’s just that when you have too much information outflow as you see now, a sense of local and national solidarity for one motive gets skewed. Nobody knows what anyone is doing. Anarchist, Progressives…all to proud spewing your own unique outcries and not humble enough to see others views.

Interestingly, I just read an article on MSN regarding Scott Mclellan’s book whereby the media has already started to paint Mclellan as someone of troubled character much as they did with Clarke when he rightfuly turned his back on the administration. Anyway, if you take the quiz related to the article, around 80% believed the Bush White House misled the public into war. In my opinion, this is a good indicator of a strong outrage yet to come.

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By cyrena, May 28, 2008 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

“We should file a class action lawsuit specifically naming the responsible people and parties and seek appropriate damages for the willful disregard for the law resulting in emotional distress and defamation of our perceived character by the global community.” …Is this even possible? Any lawyers or judges out there who know the answer to my question?”

i.Q…It’s possible, though I don’t think we would necessarily call it a class action law suit. And, SOME of what you’ve suggested has already been in the works for a while. You mentioned our individual efforts from long ago…like the massive numbers of people who gathered to demonstrate against the wars (even before they were launched) and all of the petitions, and all of the demonstrations that have continued. I don’t know how many folks here are aware of the massive demonstration that took place at the 2004 Repug convention in NYC, where close to 2,000 mostly peaceful demonstrators were arrested and jailed, but..we have that as well, and more.
We also have had multiple (and successful) efforts on the part of many others in dealing with Gitmo. There are those from Amnesty Int’l, Human Rights Watch, and even our own government that actually DOES have some decent people in it, who refused to settle for the constant resistance that the thugs put up, to keep the public away from the thousands of men who have been captured via rendition and other unlawful means, and then detained unlawfully, and without charges or right to habeas corpus, for years. I mean, it took over two years for us to even get them to release names of those held, and even longer to finally get attorneys to be allowed to talk to them. Even at that, most Americans are unaware of that, OR the new fascist laws that allow for the thugs to do THE SAME THING TO US!
So, that’s one of the primary places to begin. You’ve been reading and posting here long enough to know that there are many folks who still ‘don’t get’ that. They still don’t have a clue to the 157 ‘signing statements’ that GW has put his poison signature on, and apparently not enough of us knew about the resolution offered by Dennis Kucinich to get the impeachment of Cheney in the works. We’ve had impeachment committees going on for years now, but admittedly, we haven’t gotten as far as we should on that, because of the do-nothing Congress.
As for law suits of the class action type, there is a bit of good news on that horizon. As far as I know, the law suits against the telecoms that went along with GW’s illegal spying have been grouped together and allowed by a judge to go forward. Now of course GW has fought against that quite effectively as well, and I’m honestly not sure where it stands now.

That said, these are all things in motion, and the best thing that I think the rest of us can do, (or anyone who hasn’t been involved up to this point) is to first and foremost make it a point to vote in a way that will create the kind of Congress that isn’t going to continue rolling over to the Dick Bush regime. We expect a lot of a change in the white house, and surely that will help. But unless ‘we the people’ start paying more attention to who we send to the capitol to represent us, (for instance, here in my state, we’re planning to replace Nancy Pelosi) then there’s only so much a new president/VP can do.
Dick Bush would never have been able to force us into this totalitarian existence if the Congress hadn’t let them, and our representatives are supposed to do what we tell them to do. If they aren’t they need to hear from us, and/or be replaced with others who will. THAT is something that EVERY citizen can do.

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By nahida, May 28, 2008 at 6:39 pm Link to this comment

Thank you

So, let me get this straight:

You tear my veil to free me

You jail me to rid me of my terror

You kill my beloved to liberate me

You shoot my baby to erase my misery

You starve me to show me how to vote

You threaten me to bring me to my senses

You wage war on me to help me find peace

You slay my people to teach me compassion

You humiliate me to aid me live with dignity

You insult me to illustrate freedom of speech

You crush my bones to save me from my evil

You demolish my home to elevate my morality

You uproot my tree to raise my ethical standard

You steal my resources to bring me social justice

You assassinate my leaders to bring me democracy

You destroy my history to educate me about progress

You dehumanise me to coach me into humanity

You bomb my town to train me into security

You wipe me out to push me to civilisation

You scorn my faith to bring me salvation

Thank you sir

How can I -ever- pay you back?


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nahida's avatar

By nahida, May 28, 2008 at 6:39 pm Link to this comment

Thank you

So, let me get this straight:

You tear my veil to free me

You jail me to rid me of my terror

You kill my beloved to liberate me

You shoot my baby to erase my misery

You starve me to show me how to vote

You threaten me to bring me to my senses

You wage war on me to help me find peace

You slay my people to teach me compassion

You humiliate me to aid me live with dignity

You insult me to illustrate freedom of speech

You crush my bones to save me from my evil

You demolish my home to elevate my morality

You uproot my tree to raise my ethical standard

You steal my resources to bring me social justice

You assassinate my leaders to bring me democracy

You destroy my history to educate me about progress

You dehumanise me to coach me into humanity

You bomb my town to train me into security

You wipe me out to push me to civilisation

You scorn my faith to bring me salvation

Thank you sir

How can I -ever- pay you back?


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By Notorious, May 28, 2008 at 4:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hello All,

    It’s a common sense expression: “What goes around, comes around”. Whatever the USA does here, and abroad is constantly under the scope of God’s Chosen. Our crippled government, due to most of its incompetent members, act as if most of the people around the World aren’t picking up on the fact that Americans are 2-faced, and do whatever necessary to achieve their objectives, even if they have to lie about it in public at home, or abroad. The World isn’t ignorant to all this be-friending going on, allowing bases in their countries, allowing American corporations to move to their countries to exploit their people, and trying to downplay what it’s really trying to do. The rest of the World sees every little thing going on…it’s all an attempt to colonize/control other countries, and ultimately being able to launch a global attack on others if necessary. The World should be weiry, and should start pushing the US’s military out of their countries before they become subject to occupation by force. Americans are ultimately going to pay for what this country’s leadersheep, and military is doing, whether it be here at home, or abroad. These terrorists are their own worst enemies, and don’t know when to quit…it will take the masses to bring humility to their doorsteps. A new revolution is brewing…

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By STORMY7, May 28, 2008 at 4:44 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)


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By i,Q, May 28, 2008 at 4:40 pm Link to this comment

i haven’t read all the comments yet, but of the several i have gotten through so far there seem to be two themes emerging:

1. Collectively we as America’s citizenry share the burden of responsibility.

2. Individually, it is incorrect to say there is no outrage.

As i recall, the largest demonstrations in history were organized to protest the Administration’s hijacking of the Constitution, assault on individual liberties, and it’s going to war in Iraq. There continue to be petitions circulated condemning any number of actions by this White House. Keith Olbermann daily recites 3 at a time of the “50 running scandals” of the Bush administration (the list keeps growing). There was plenty of outrage when the reprehensible photos of treatment of prisoners at Abu Graib were circulated. i could go on, but i would exceed the maximum character limit and everyone would weep. Now this — yet another — report concluding that mistakes were made. Big mistakes.

It is hard to sustain outrage while being crushed by a mountain of boulders.

Plenty of us have expressed our protest, demanded that our representatives represent. No one seems to be listening to us and our voices have grown hoarse and inaudible despite our continued efforts to cry out. i am reluctant to quote Lou Dobbs, but our government is broken, so here’s what i suggest:

We should file a class action lawsuit specifically naming the responsible people and parties and seek appropriate damages for the willful disregard for the law resulting in emotional distress and defamation of our perceived character by the global community.

Is this even possible? Any lawyers or judges out there who know the answer to my question?

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By Serge, May 28, 2008 at 4:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“. . . the purpose of the military is to break things and kill people.”

For some reason, I’ve always thought that the purpose of the military is to protect the country and its population from the foreign invasion. Erare humanum est.

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By Debbie S, May 28, 2008 at 4:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There has been over 153 individual cities with people paticipating, that have signed for the impeachment of Bush and Cheney.Dennis Kuchnith and Robert Wexler have given signatures by people in this country wanting impeachment.I have signed for impeachment as a citizen living in this country.John Conyers is stating thst if Bush and the military start bombing Iran he will proceed with impeachment.Congress has refused to give any further funding for the illegal Iraq War.Please call members of the Senate so this will be the end of further funding.I understand what Mr. Scheer is saying.This should be handled by courts of law, here in this country.Corporate media is such a controlled function for the power structures that are taking part in all of this,the investigation and reporting of this should be relentless until action is taken.Call and write letters to media and congress and senate and judicial commitees.

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By i,Q, May 28, 2008 at 4:11 pm Link to this comment

Don’t forget that many of the seats the Democrats won in 2006 in Congress were attained on platforms of “immigration reform.” It is not surprising then that the legislative branch is unwilling to do its job when the “new majority” is achieved by the election of Democrats who share what are traditionally Republican values.

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By Ga, May 28, 2008 at 3:50 pm Link to this comment

“The Abu Ghraib guards were undertrained and understaffed and undersupervised.”

Have you been in the service? When and how can any serviceman be not supervised, not doing what is instructed, off on their own doing whatever they wanted? Other than when on leave and during bunk time, when are soldiers allowed to act on their own?

It is total bullshit to say—to believe—that the “guards” were doing what they were doing undersupervised. They—as all soldiers are—were doing as they were told.

Even if what you state is true, think of what that would mean.

Undertrained? Whose fault would that be? Their commanders? The chain-of-command? The system as a whole?

Understaffed? Whose fault would that be? Their commanders? The chain-of-command? The system as a whole?

Undersupervised? Whose fault would that be? Their commanders? The chain-of-command? The system as a whole?

No matter how you look at it, “undertrained, understaffed and undersupervised” is a gross cop-out and, frankly, a made-up excuse to “save face” which, as we have seen, simply protects those who really are responsible: Those in Charge.

Besides, what happened was, clearly, a base hatred of the Iraqis that many Americans have due to ignorance and fear.

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By TheRealFish, May 28, 2008 at 3:35 pm Link to this comment

I very clearly remember the development of the Watergate scandal (and crimes). However much I felt either curious or shocked, living in the center of the country, none of it *seemed* to touch me.

If it had not been for the pit-bull-dogged pursuing of this unfolding story by the Woodwards’ and Benstiens’ most Americans would have gone “ho hum” and off we go to the daily stuff that fills our lives.

It was not that it wasn’t important, that it didn’t threaten our Constitution, that there weren’t real crimes being perpetrated, but it took an active 4th estate being “outraged” on our behalf.

Today’s news outlets, it seems, do navel-gazing practices of looking to polls to decide what is news. Sales are down, viewers and readers are going elsewhere (here?), so sales are more important than helping to interpret crap as crap.

I hate to say that the mass of the population aren’t good citizens, but our jobs are to keep making, to keep building, to keep serving, to keep buying and keep driving (it seems).

The 4th estate’s job is to help us know when our government is taking us for a ride, is dumping crap on us and calling it good policy, and the silence you hear is not the fault of the American public. That is why there are special protections for the 4th estate in constitution and common law.

That the government is already 3/4 outsourced and the news media are controlled by too few corporate heads and are being downsized, that is all the answer needed to know where the outrage went.

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By Ga, May 28, 2008 at 3:31 pm Link to this comment

How ironic that many Americans (and Christians) justify the destruction—genocide—of the indigenous people of the Americas because they were “savages” and unworthy of basic decency if they failed to convert to Christianity.

“But they are terrorists,” is how many people justify the Bush Administration’s rampant foreign policy and blatant disregard of the U.S. Constitution, the Geneva Conventions and many International Treaties as well as common decency. Just as we heard and still hear, “But they were savages,” to justify how the U.S. (and the many European conquerers) treated Native Americans.

Read the right-wing blogs, read news outlets like The Washington Times and The Weekly Standard, watch Fox News, read, listen to O’Rielly, Limbaugh, Savage, etc.—and read/listen to their listeners/readers for a constant barrage of vitriol and hatred of almost everything non-American.

They don’t even support Democracy as shown by this country’s treatment of many elections around the world where the results were simply not “liked.”

Remember the U.S. Senator who was “Outraged over the outrage about the exposure of U.S.‘s ill-treatment of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib?

Many Americans think that it is totally OKAY to torture and kill “terrorists” of any kind, no matter the consequences, no matter the collateral damage. No matter that almost all of these “terrorists” are—or were—nothing of the sort.

Many Americans simply DO NOT CARE that over 600,000 Iraqis hacve died BY OUR HANDS and that MILLIONS have been displaced and made refugees.

One half of Americans are sick, ignorant, fucks. Face it.

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By San Fernando Curt, May 28, 2008 at 3:27 pm Link to this comment

Oh… the outrage is there. What you mean is: Where is the public outrage. Well, we’re not a public people, by and large. Americans work to have a life and provide one for their families; we are free, after all, only to the extent that we can customize the personal, and edit the general.

The left is very public. Too public. Up until recently, any squeaky-wheel cause drew very deliberate outrage and marches… and, finally, disinterest. No one wants to march against the war because the march will be organized by the left. And nobody wants to march in those because they’re against the war - not capitalism. They don’t want to free Mumia or save the split-tail button willow or open the borders. They just want the war to end.

You must mean why there’s no outrage in the media. Well… the media is… ambiguous about the war. Mostly, the media is in favor of it. Since poll after poll tell us Americans are dead set against the war, the media can’t just come out and spill the beans about this support. That may cost them viewers, audiences… readers. So they do it stealthily. They allow Pentagon-vetted “experts” to define the parameters of the coverage; they launch whisper campaigns against candidates who’ve stood against the war machine.

But make no mistake: The outrage IS there. Simmering. Turning to plain old… rage.

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By velvel in decatur, May 28, 2008 at 2:52 pm Link to this comment

Mr Scheer, we learned long ago, a bit in jest but mostly seriously, that the purpose of the military is to break things and kill people.  And that was our training.  While there are civil administration teams and units to train others, the primary purpose is to engage in what seem to be uncivilized activities like shooting people and blowing things up.  Military intelligence is intended to get information to be used in both strategic (longer term and broader based) and tactical (here and now) actions.

The Abu Ghraib guards were undertrained and understaffed and undersupervised.  No wonder to anyone who thinks about it that things went awry.  And the privates and corporals and buck sergeants got punished and locked away. 

But while you are writing about torture at Gitmo and maltreatment (perhaps more so than mistreatment) of detainees (what we mean are “captured folks?”) where is the outrage over rape by “humanitarian aid” workers from the UN and other organizations whose livelihood is paid out of US taxpayer money?  Or murder in Darfur or Haiti or Burma?  Or sham treatment of Tibet?
Where is the outrage over honor killings?
Where is the outrage by women against lashings and stonings by religious courts in Iran and Saudi Arabia?
What is the purpose of all these things? 
Compare and contrast that with waterboarding and humiliation of persons captured after shooting at US troopers and even US (and even BBC and Reuters clowns) who are working press?
Where is the outrage?
It is fair that we are held—-that we hold ourselves—-to higher standards because we see ourselves (expect for the fiskies and kos folks) as a little bit more civilized than others.  But I have to wonder if by sitting in an airconditioned office in NYC or DeeCee or SanFrancisco pontificating some of us miss the point.
Our troopers are not machines.  And they were not trained to be guards or interrogators.
Our troopers are not machines.  And they volunteered for something they did not understand (and who understands war?)
Our troopers are not machines.  Maybe everyone needs to reread Crane’s “Red Badge of Courage?”
Our “friends” in Congress on both sides of the aisle have tried to do this all on the cheap for years and have not had the guts to tell the Pentagon Brass Hats and the State Department “gone native” bureaucrats to act professionally.

Hell, even Danica Patrick gets angry when some pissant sideswipes her.

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By KYJurisDoctor, May 28, 2008 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

What’s sad about this revelation is that our enemies will feel FREE to torture us, too!

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By midrat, May 28, 2008 at 2:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists.  That is why they invented Hell.” - Bertrand Russell

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By cyrena, May 28, 2008 at 1:19 pm Link to this comment

Robert Scheer isn’t as lonely a voice as it might seem. As Non Credo said, we’re plenty embarrassed, and have been for a long while. We’re working as hard as we can, to expose all that these criminals have done, and bring them to justice in the international arena.

Doesn’t matter if they haven’t been willing to sign on to the ICC, because the rest of the international community can still bring them to account for their crimes. So, let’s get to work, since we’re ALL citizens of this planet.

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By liberal white boy, May 28, 2008 at 1:17 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Are Americas New Torture Practices Discriminatory? I think so.

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By Chris Herz, May 28, 2008 at 12:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Torture is actually an improvement over US practice in some of our other colonial struggles.  People are being taken prisoner, not just offed on sight by deathsquads.

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By Sol, May 28, 2008 at 11:50 am Link to this comment

I am not an American and to be honest to you all reading these comments, I would be terribly embarrassed of being one. Now I understand the reluctance of the US in accepting an International Court! As a citizen of this planet I will do all in my power to have this administration charged of war crimes as soon as it is humanely possible. George Bush is a war criminal like the one he killed and should be charged. Robert Sheer is a very lonely voice in the middle of a country that has lost its way and is run by debrained people that need to be taken out as soon as possible. This is not new for the US that has commited terrible crimes around the world since the end of the second world war, but this is pretty close to insanity. The US should be a beacon of democracy and hope and not of barbarism and criminal activities.

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By msgmi, May 28, 2008 at 11:39 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Orwell ROCKS!!!!

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By Ksenia, May 28, 2008 at 11:38 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Believe it or not, the majority does not care. I see it in my office, among people I know. Am I going to be arrested? No. So why should I outcry for a handful of those ‘bad guys’ in orange? Plus, many (my cousin’s husband for instance) do believe that if there is some danger even remote to some precious americans the not-so-precious non-americans can be tortured so they confess where is this danger coming from!

The vast majority is NOT AFFECTED, therefore… does not care.
Humanity on march.

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By jackpine savage, May 28, 2008 at 9:40 am Link to this comment

Curtis Mayfield once said, “I’ve met many people over the years, and i’ve learned that people are the same everywhere: we have similar fears, shed the same tears, and die in so many years.”

Perhaps one of our collective problems is that we believe that there is such a thing as having completed the task of growing up.  Life is education and education is life.  If you stop growing/learning, then you’re already dead.

It is the same situation with our governance of ourselves.  Rather than continuing to perfect the union, we decided ourselves “grown up”...completed…perfect (as in finished).

And so here we are: ignorant, but in the active sense of the word.  We are not like a child who does not yet know; we are adults, thinking ourselves grown up, actively ignoring.  It is this that makes me incapable of feeling sympathy for us.  The bed we will lie in is of our own making…and that’s the saddest part of all.

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By Louise, May 28, 2008 at 9:33 am Link to this comment

Heinrich Himmler would be proud. Named after a Bavarian Royal, he no doubt felt a “divine” right in all his wrongs. Kinda reminds me of another man named after a sorta “royal” who also seems to be guided by a conviction of divine right in all his wrongs.

Strange how the more things change, the more they stay the same. Like the lack of outrage.

Back in the day when Himmler was destroying people and lives in the name of National security, everyone who was comfortable in their own home looked the other way. In fact they all looked so HARD the other way, when the unleashed evil came crashing down on their heads, they were surprised!


They were surprised.

They didn’t know.

They had no idea.


What will be our excuse?

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By Conservative yankee, May 28, 2008 at 9:23 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The answer to your question Non Credo

“Does a policeman who witnesses a murder not arrest the murderer, if for some reason he doubts whether the person will be convicted in court? “

Absolutely!!  to do otherwise would invite a law suit for false arrest, and if that suit was successful, probably the lose of the policeman’s job as well.

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By don nash, May 28, 2008 at 8:56 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The outrage is there and has been there since Nov. 2000. Problem is, one can’t get a word in edgewise with mainstream media. Not one word. Congress creepers won’t listen and the White House, yeah, they haven’t been listening since ever. The ‘where’s the outrage’ tag has been raised over and over and over since, well, since Nov. 2000. So what we have here is, failure. Failure by the “establishment” to listen to the cries for justice. So when the freaking revolution breaks out and all manner of violent insanity is running rampant through the streets of Amerika, the punditry won’t be able to say “why is there outrage now?” The outrage is here and it’s simmering and brooding and just about ready to boil over. Let’s see if Nancy Pelosi keeps impeachment off the table after all hell breaks loose.

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By Bill Blackolive, May 28, 2008 at 8:54 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Yes, now, Mr. Sheer, we need to gang up at Patriotsquestion9/11. See a thousand screams,a hundred old pilots (4 hundred engineers) saying nobody could with that weight and that speed hit skyscrapers twice, and forget the Pentagon God Save Us All. That these carriers were drones.  Get this physical universe into blathering corporate TV and all is changed, to reality.

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By Bushfatigue, May 28, 2008 at 8:49 am Link to this comment

Our society’s indifference to the Bush Administration’s multiple outrages makes it easier to understand how the Germans stood by as Hitler took their society down a horrible path.  Makes one wonder at the future of universal suffrage, when the great mass of voters are so appallingly indifferent and uninformed.

On Condi, who knows what to make of that strange creature.  She now says that the laws were “different,” in 2001-2003, and that the torture protected the U.S.  She offers up such stupid excuses, and our interviewers/reporters seem so dense and uninformed themselves that no one reminds her that the Geneva Conventions were, um, actually on the books in 2001.  Under the Constitution, as duly ratified treaties, they are binding law.  She will surely go down as the worst National Security Advisor in history, and she’s in the running for that title as Secretary of State as well.

Rice, Yoo, Feith, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Libby, Cheney, Bush, etc., etc., what a strange convergence of history, that such a hateful, inept and cynical group,  with delusions of world control, a vision of the the war on terror as a ticket to the re-election of Bush, or a messianic obsession with Israel,  would be in charge of our country when 9/11 struck.  Without doing more, the perpetrators have brought our country to an historic low.

Gary Rose
Los Gatos, CA

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By Political Insurgent, May 28, 2008 at 8:22 am Link to this comment

I have been outraged since Bush stole the office of president, but I am powerless to do anything about it.

Nobody is powerless. Thousands of voice are more powerful than a minority of oppressive voices. We as independent citizens of what is allegedly the freest country in the world are simply too afraid to stand up to that power that we wield. Like these FBI agents, and everyone else who has looked upon this violence against humanity with even a shred of horror and disgust, our voices are caught in our throats, fearing subconsciously that if we dared show our dissent, it will be us in the orange jumper and black hood.

The fact is, there are more of us than them. They might have guns and cattleprods and dogs, but we have numbers, we have technology and we have justice on our side. C’mon! We can take ‘em!

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By Paolo, May 28, 2008 at 7:54 am Link to this comment

Read an interesting opinion piece by Wilton Alston on this morning, in which he identifies the US government as a form of cult or crime family. I think this applies vis-a-vis the US history of torture.

As a libertarian, my view is that we all have to stop giving our blind allegiance to the state, whether it is run by D’s or R’s. As individuals, we are all united by normal, human morals: we see it is wrong to inflict pain, to kill, to steal, and to lie. But when we get in the mode of state-worship, we are willing to do all these things.

Most human beings would never consent to torture another human being if (for example) their neighbor or best friend told them to do it. Yet, a large number of otherwise normal human beings will torture when ordered to do so by their government.

The main difference between the US government and a Mafia Don is that the Mafia Don charges less.

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By Expat, May 28, 2008 at 7:32 am Link to this comment

^ As a 63 year old whose not yet a grown up; I have to say I would like to see a reckoning.  Without that, I see no hope for this country or it’s citizens to heal from this great catastrophe visited on us by our lack of diligence; by our irrational fear, and by a concerted effort by evil men.  We’re a young country and maturity escapes us; and maybe our diversity makes it impossible for us to unite behind our constitution as imperfect as it is.  We as a country have never valued an education: I don’t mean book learning; I mean the broader view, the dreams, the possibilities, and the overview of us and the rest of the world as a community.  The teaching of commonalities and not the emphasis of differences.  Indeed we are lost and there is no turning back: The evidence is in the everyday news via MSM. 
Any one who has experienced other cultures knows we are so alike; across this wonderful world.  I am crushed by the ignorance of the American people.

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By SamSnedegar, May 28, 2008 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

Robert Scheer USED to be a voice of truth standing tall among the pygmies, but unless and until he returns to being critical of the USA for coveting (Iraq’s oil), lying (us into a war for oil), murdering (countless innocent people who never meant us harm), and stealing (Iraq’s oil), then Mr. Scheer has no credibility with respect to ANY subject dealing with the crooked government run by the Bushitter gang of thugs.

Oh, I understand that Mr. Scheer’s INCOME depended on people who didn’t like his talking about oil, and he changed his ways to suit his publishers, but his new-found SELECTIVITY anent the myriad sins of the Bushitter gang of thugs, a selectivity which keeps the money rolling in by the way, just makes Mr. Scheer look foolish.

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