i think you’ll find many here who share that sentiment.

Ender,

Very powerful truth, if one can only uses reason to look beyond knee jerk actions.

Goering seems to hit home when we look at what has happened to us when you read the following.

“All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.”[Hermann Goering]

Thank you, ender, for these selected quotations against war and militarism from distinguished personalities. I was in the process of collecting some of these, but your post saved me a lot of time, so thank you again!

RIGHT ON! My feelings exactly and I would have added but you beat me to it.

When we have made war the only measure of patriotism, perhaps we should consider the great leaders of the past:

“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.” [ Dwight Eisenhower ]

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.” [ Theodore Roosevelt ]

“History teaches that war begins when governments believe the price of aggression is cheap.” [ Ronald Reagan ]

“Naturally, the common people don’t want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.” [Hermann Goering]

Herein lies the problem with your thinking John..

“...blaming the soldiers for following lawful orders, while the lazy (liberal?) citizens take a free pass.”

These are NOT ‘lawful orders’ and when anyone of us take an oath to defend the Constitution, THAT’S what we should do, if we want to call ourselves patriots.

I’m not blaming all of our soldiers for NOT KNOWING what is ‘lawful’ or what the Constitution says. But to suggest that our soldiers were following ‘lawful’ orders in any of the last several wars, is simply not true.

Now there HAVE been some Patriots in this most recent act of unlawful agression perpetrated by the US, against Iraq specifically. I will give you Lt. Ehren Watada as the best example that all should be aware of. He made it a point to learn what protecting and defending the Constitution actually means, and then decided not to obey what were UNLAWFUL orders to do UNLAWFUL actions in an UNLAWFUL war of agression.

And yes, hypocritical so-called ‘patriots’ have put him through the ringer as a result.

You say if we don’t like war, we should replace the politicians. Well, we’ve tried, (those of us who don’t like war) but with little or no success. And should we not expect our politicians to be patriots as well? Should we not hope or expect our soldiers to KNOW what’s in the law and the Constitution, so they could understand that these are NOT ‘lawful orders’ and refuse to comply with unlawful orders?

No, this is not ‘thoughless LIBERALISM’ on my part at least. In fact, honoring and respecting and defending and protecting the Constitution, (and the committments to International Agreements that are EMEDDED in our Constitution) is not some ‘liberal’ mentality. It’s a pretty conservative one if you really wanna think beyond your superficial bullshit and categorizing of others as ‘liberals’.

No, we know that soldiers can’t pick their commander-in-chief. We know they can’t pick their wars. But don’t try to tell us that they’re following LAWFUL orders from ANYBODY, when the writing is clear enough, that if they were defending or protecting our Constitution, they wouldn’t be serving in direct defiance of that.

Your ‘soldier’ mentality says..do whatever the commander in chief tells you to do, because THAT makes it ‘lawful’? I think not.

Who’s really CONDESCENDING here StephenL? And how would you know the difference between the far left, or the far right, or the middle?

People like you are stuck on stupid.

The problem facing progressive patriotism is the same problem that was faced when progressives still called themselves liberals.  You can’t win the debate if you let the opponent define the terms, especially if you let them define the terms to your disadvantage.

The best example of that is that liberals now call themselves progressives because the Right made ‘liberal’ a dirty word…even as it co-opted the worst aspects of classical liberalism and neo-liberalism.

And with a “war” going on, patriotism is going to overlap with military issues.  It happened the last time a war divided this nation, and at least one example of it occurs on this thread: anti-war liberals blurring the line between the war makers and the warriors.

If progressives want to make real and propaganda improvements to their patriot credentials here is one suggestion:

When the Dem candidate goes begging for/accepting donations, they should suggest a percentage-match donation to veterans groups. 

This strategy presupposes that progressives are any more patriotic than their flag-pinned, “kill ‘em all” counterparts across the ideological divide.

Wow!

Now that was a piece of writing…from start to finish (particularly the finish).

“A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government”.

Edward Abbey

Good job IQ,

These old bones are getting tired, me old day rants are in hiding of late.

Patriots hold an Idea as to what we should be strivig for- not patting ourselves on the back for past ‘accomplishments’ and resting on those ‘laurel’s We are Cosntantly looking and evaluating..Is this the American WAY?does it reflect our ideolgy , our aspriations, our founding Principles? And we are allows ready to see things that Do Not match Up to our True Potential as the ‘Worlds Greatest Democracy’
That is why the last 35 yrs has been a disgrace- with the most grievous being the last 7 yrs. We had a Clear path towards Being the Land of th eFree and the Home of the Brave by rejecting old fears and hatreds, of dispelling all blocades to the guiding light of ‘WE the People’. But then we were usurped, gagged, bound and villified by the Ones who used Orwells ‘Double Speak’.Words and titles have ben used to represent exactly the opposite of their real intnetions..‘Moral Majority’ was not Moral Nor a Majority,(like ‘Federal Reserve’- Not a Federal institution Nor a Reserve -at least not for US.)‘Patriotism has been used to perpetuate Corp profiteering claiming ‘Free market’, Legislation has been passed to usurp our very basic Constitutional and Bill of rights- “Patriot Act” my ass. ‘Defense of Family’ is not interested in Families, only Religious dogma and Discrimination.
Orwell was a Prophet- of course he could see the writing on th ewall even then- Big Brither, Ministry of Truth, Ignorance is bliss…. all took a hold in 1984- Reagans 2nd term and the founding of the Blue arm of the Neo CONS,The DLC!See which Dems have Voted with admin- and their names on th eDLC membership roster. Granted there are those not listed -probably just waiting for their acceptance letter, or have gotten big money long before the DLC was formed. their are only a ahndful of Real Patriots left in both houses of congress ( some Red /some Blue) and only about 3 on the Supreme Court!
I was a ‘Clintonian’ - willing to meet half way for real solution s to our nations problems,BUT now I am considered , and gladly so, A Radical!How dare I beleive for Worker Rights, Human Rights, Peace and Stewardship of the Earth, even fro mthe Party I have loyally supported for 26yrs!My values have not changed, but the party’s has…Hillary is a Dead give away to the Neo CON stench that has infected The Democratic party!Anarchy refers ONLY to the idea that The Masses- Humankind- and it’s welfare are the top priority for any steward- If we fail Ourselves all that depends on Us All Fails too! as the great adage goes “ALL FOR ONE & ONE FOR ALL” If we allow one group of stewards to fall- then we all fall.We are the Great Experiment It is time to return to the Lab and attend to IT!

You’re obviously not above condescending attacks yourself. So here’s mine back at you — and only at you, you presumptuous, overgeneralizing pr!ck.

You go ahead and put your hand over your heart and prance around with the stars and stripes pinned to your chest while you ignore the corruption which has led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians and destroyed our economy to pay for it. Hang your flag from your porch and suck down hot-dogs and apple pie while the executive branch dismantles and ignores the Constitution. Pledge your allegiance to a piece of fabric in a mindless chant invoking the exclusionist ideal of a Christian God while your far-right warriors clamor to squelch the liberties of those who don’t share their beliefs. If you think these symbolic gestures are the things which make a patriot, you go ahead and pat yourself on the back.

But since you either didn’t read what EJ wrote, or — more likely — you didn’t understand it, i’ll sum it up for you: patriotism isn’t merely displaying a flag, patriotism is upholding the principles for which it stands.

You are right about one thing though, patriotism is not a dirty word, but patriotism isn’t blind nationalist symbolism either. So either get on board or get out of the way, because those of us who understand the responsibility of patriots have a lot of cleaning up to do. And if i don’t want to wear a flag pin while i’m helping clean up the mess made by a complacent nation of flag waving enablers — or even if i do — it’s not your f@ck!ng shirt, so step off.

Soldiers ought to obey the claims of the innocent instead of those politicians who command them to fight in unjustified wars.  This could be done by fleeing the country or simply going to prison for civil disobediance.  You say they do not have a choice in matters of war or peace.  But they do.  The choice isn’t easy, but who said doing the right thing was going to be easy?

Congress (as opposed to the immaginary “democratic congress”) does bare responsibility for many of Bush’s failures.  They voted for the patriot act and they voted to fund our corporate misadventure in Iraq (as opposed to the immaginary of an “Iraq war”).

I find the far left’s condescending attacks against patriotism and patriots to be offensive.

It’s a part of that condescending, “we know better than those bitter Christians” attitude.  “we know better than those ignorant, flag waving pin-heads and we look down upon them”.  That was the true meaning of Obama tossing away his flag pin (the pin he has recently found). 

It was a signal to the far left that he is not a moderate, not in the middle, but that he’s way over there on the far left belittling those “ignorant flag wavers” who have flags out on their decks, who get up an cover their hearts when they hear the national anthem.  But scratch their skin and left wing superiority is only skin deep.

Recently, it appears Obama found his flag pin again as he comes to realize that smearing and belittling those “clingy gun owning, boarder securing, flag waving Christians” can lead to defeat in the general election.  Just as Obama has discovered the joy of keeping the cuban embargo and his true support of the nation of Israel when talking to New York Jewish voters.

But that’s ok, he found his flag pin but you know he’s with you, right?  So whose he fooling?  Is this change or the just the tired, old, far-left, “progressive” agenda wrapped up in a new “change” wrapper?

How do you square the meaning of this statement, “But McCain wasn’t part of that, and his service deserves the praise it gets” with the overall meaning of the article?

John McCain was a soldier in an unjustified war.  If he “deserves the praise”, then progressive patriotism has yet to thrown off the traditional meaning of patriotism with its unblinking support of veterns who fought in unjustified wars.

If you want to go after Kerry on his war record than McCains is fair game.The idea of war is not to get caught by the enemy.What I truly resent is taking this POW and trying to make him Eisenhower.A real military expert because he spent 5 years in confinement.I guess everybody who has spent time in prison is expert on penal reform.Let us not forget that the huge number of this administration that got us into this war did not serve either.Yet McCain has no problem supporting them and this disastrous policy.Yes EJ because we are morons wearing the flag pin is probably a plus even though it connotes less than nothing.Remember EJ"the last refuge of the scoundrel is patriotism”.

How could anyone vote for this guy over Ron Paul.

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mccainfiles.htm

I thought I was the only one who failed to understand McCain as hero. Commendable post, AG.

If anyone on this site knows an ex-prisoner of war, or even better was one, does imprisonment by the ‘enemy’ make one a war hero?

McCain volunteered to be a jet-jockey - son of admirals sort of ordained it - and bombed the hell out of another country killing far more innocents than enemy combatants. Is that the act of a hero?

True war heroes seldom if ever speak of it.  McCain makes it a vanity, an unseemly hubris - which according to his religion is a sin, by the way.  And we’re as sick as he is when we don’t call him on it.

was not a hero as some state. He was a POW. Some of the POW’s Here in Phoenix say he wasn’t that much of a POW either. It is only a rumor, but it brings into question why he pulled out of South Carolina in 2000.

The main problem for Obama’s candidacy is not the measure of his patriotism but rather, it is the misunderstanding of his core message by progressives.

If the Bush administration has achieved anything in the last eight years then it is the relegation of democratic principles into the radical category. That Obama campaigns as the Washington outsider on the values of consensus, debate and transparency gives him the veneer of fighting against the status quo and by extension seen to be sympathetic to Democratic activists. The extension of inspirational rhetoric to
liberal policies is a dangerous one.

Just because he criticizes Bush and believes in a truly transparent government doesn’t necessarily mean he believes in gay marriage, a single-payer health system, a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants or is anti-war.

It would do many who support Barack Obama, including myself, to remind themselves every once in a while that while he doesn’t represent all my core values, he is guided by democratic principles and thus invites my opinion as he would others.

If this is not heeded then there could be huge disappointment for many first time voters come the end of his first term, should he get elected of course.

http://oddlyamerican.wordpress.com/

We have here a plutocracy,  not a democracy.  It was set up that way to protect the wealthy and elite.  You state ” It will be a long damn time before this country is anything like a true democracy”.  I would say never! 

The closest thing we can see down the road is true checks and balances between the powers in Washington and more people power.

...if there’s ever a hint of involuntary service to the “country” (actually, the State), Obama will lose the bloom off his rose very quickly. (For “involuntary service”, read military conscription, possibly with an option of serving in either the Peace Corps or AmeriCorps instead of shouldering a rifle and manning the Empire’s ever-shrinking ramparts.)

Sen. Barack Obama, what a man.  Asking us the people to set aside our differences and work together for the common good? Well, we can’t have any of that!  Why, the Far Christian Right would not dare or deign to associate with someone from the far left or any other religion.  Intolerance at its worst is displayed by the one’s who are supposed to be the most tolerant, the Christians.  In the history of the Roman Church and of those of the Protestant faith, we find among them the most intolerant and bigoted people, i.e., the KKK, and that is just for starters. Even among the most liberal of the denominations, there were during slavery and up to and including today, people who have not gotten over the fact that we as a nation are not founded upon the principle of liberty and justice for some. Sen. John McCain, is of course to be applauded for the service he rendered to this country and the horrors he experienced as a POW, but was the fight that he was engaged in a “just war?”  In hindsight of course not. Vietnam, was and is one country, according to all the treaties that were signed by the French and Americans, there was not a North and South Vietnam, this ignoble idea was a farce from the word go and a fairy tale written by the CIA and its minions. Of course, the president at the time, HST, played a large part in the foisting of this idea upon the American people, and it continued throughout the administrations of Dwight David Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Lyndon Baines Johnson, and of course Richard Milhouse (I am not a crook) Nixon.  Patriotism needs to be redefined, Fadel Abdallah in his commentary on this article has struck a chord, we need new ways of looking at old ideas, and this is the time to do this. We should not look to those whose idea of patriotism is chauvinistic and nationalistic. We need to include all of mankind, in our ideal patriotism. Someday, we may look back on these days and with sorrow, count this as the worst time in recorded history. An administration, which cared nothing for the people it was supposed to serve, a military dragged into an untenable and certainly not winnable conflict that will continue to rage on with or without us, and citizens balkanized by the political parties which have nothing more than their own interests at heart. Should we survive these perilous times, then we need to rethink our loyalty to one or another party. We need not have only two parties in the system that governs America, we need to hear other voices and other viewpoints. If this does not happen, then we will certainly descend into and anarchic and medieval system of governing, where only the strongest among us will govern for short periods, to be replaced by another strong man who will then repress and oppress us from his point of view.

Towards a New Definition of Patriotism!

Traditional patriotism to one’s particular country has built within it many elements of crude chauvinism. Therefore, I believe that true patriotism should have a universal aspect to it; so here’s some of my definitions of a universal patriot:

1. When the power of love for your fellow humans exceeds your love for your personal power, ego and material well-being, you’re a universal patriot.

2. When the meaning of service extends beyond you locality, party, race, color or sex, then you’re a universal patriot.

3. When you wish for all human beings the same good you wish for yourself, you’re a universal patriot.

4. When you see wrong, or injustice done any place in the world and try to right it either with you hand, tongue or heart, then you’re a universal patriot. That’s why Rachel Corrie, in my sight, is the ultimate universal patriot; and if you don’t know who Rachel Corrie is, then you’re no patriot at all, even if you wrap yourself up in a hundred flags or wear a hundred pins!

5. If you refuse to serve in an unjust war, half way around the world, based on lies and deception, then you’re a true universal patriot.

6. If you like to treat all other human beings as you want them to treat you, then you’re a universal patriot.

7. If satisfying your needs does not leave you with more desire for any wants, then you’re a truly happy universal patriot.

•  “Moreover, John McCain’s sacrifice for his country will be a central theme of the Republican campaign. And why not? Yes, many Republicans refused to honor John Kerry’s service during the campaign four years ago. But McCain wasn’t part of that, and his service deserves the praise it gets.”

Unless I’m really confused, EJ is saying here, that while many Repugs thoroughly torched John Kerry’s patriotic service during the 2004 campaign, (I think we called it the “Swiftboat Operation”) which caused him to lose that election, (we knew it would happen the moment it started) these SAME REPUGS will surely make John McCain’s service a cornerstone of his campaign. Does the fact that McCain wasn’t part of that, (and don’t believe he was, since the repugs did similar things to him as well) somehow make his service more ‘praise-worthy’ than the service by John Kerry that was totally trashed?

I guess EJ is saying that McCain wasn’t in on the Swiftboating, and since John Kerry’s service to the country was ignored because he was a Democrat, all the repugs will now go back to saluting military heroes as the ultimate indication of what patriotism is all about. Yep, that sounds like a typical repug operation. So, I guess that service=patriotism only applies to repugs.

I’m not suggesting that McCain’s service does NOT deserve the praise that it gets; at least I didn’t used to. Now I’m starting to wonder how or why he could possibly go along with the continued torture that his fellow repugs have illegally engaged in, considering that he spent the majority of his military service as a POW, and we have always believed that he was tortured during that time. SURELY he must KNOW, (because it seems like I’ve even heard him argue this obvious point) that by continuing to engage in torture, (as the current administration has done) and even if he or nobody else cares about the huge violation of so many laws and treaties here, it DOES set our own troops up for the very same fate.

But now, Sen. McCain seems to have basically reneged on that commitment.
That would APPEAR to call a bit of this patriotism into question. Then again, not with the repugs, so what am I even going on about?

Meantime, I wasn’t aware of Obama’s plan for the Peace Corps and the AmeriCorps, and that IS a great plan. Very impressive. At this point, we need the Peace Corps more than we’ve ever needed them before, though the job of restoring credibility to this nations service will be a huge one. Just the thought of any American appearing anywhere in the Middle East in a uniform seems like it would make them an automatic target. How do we convey, after 6 years of on-going slaughter, that we’re actually there to help regain some measure of peace and restoration?

A HUGE undertaking. But, I think if anybody can manage it, Obama can. He’s not gonna send them anywhere before he’s done a bit of paving the way first, on the diplomatic end of it. And, lucky for us, most of these countries understand perfectly well that the American people are not responsible for the actions of their fascist administration. It sounds like a pathetic cop-out, because we’re SUPPOSED to be responsible for what they do. Still, these nations that have been victimized seem to be far more aware of how we’ve been hijacked than even many Americans are.

Meantime, there’s a sad irony at this point in our history, that a flag lapel pin could be such a huge determination of “Patriotism” when we are still sneaking our dead troops home under cover of darkness, and out of public view.