I have a mutual and equal relationship with the women in my life.  When they call for help, or need to talk, I am there, I would not think twice about calling them for help, or talking to them about stuff that bothered me.

NO, I would not be thrilled if I learned that one of my friends, loved-ones, or family members was entering into a “pluralistic” marriage. NOR would I be pleased if one of these folks declared she was marrying her abuser.  We’d talk,

BUT you say “paternal” so I have to ask is it not “paternal” to deny a woman “free choice” even if that choice doesn’t look appropriate to surrounding males? 

If we are indeed equal, the principle participant MUST begin the battle for freedom, even with just a word. Then I will join in, because I have been asked.

and I have done these battles…

“saving adults” from themselves is not my thing.  No one will ever convince me I have a duty there!
\
My real name is Harry H. Snyder III

You said: “...it seems unAmerican to stick ones nose where it does not belong”. I think that is probably true of the American public, in general. Americans, in general, are good hearted people.

Unfortunately, our Government is not so benevolent. We have overthrown many governments of other countries, many of them duly elected by their people. You should read: “Overthrow: America’s Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq”  by Stephen Kinzer. It is a very recent book (2007).

I grew up believing that the U.S. simply was about freedom, and only went around the world looking for corrupt countries, to help free their peoples, and to help them appreciate democracy. Which meant, of course, that we were absolutely for free elections, everywhere, “so people could appreciate the fruits of freedom, just like we have here in the U.S.A.”

Well, they had free and open elections in many other countries, but the U.S. didn’t agree with their choices. And, guess what, it went beyond mere disagreements…

Well, one lives and learns, and hopefully, does some personal growth along the way. Sometimes, the truth hurts, but you end up feeling so much better in the long run, as personal growth always does.

The U.S. is in decline now, and perhaps it just a mark of the times that unpopular religions, or individuals, are now being labeled “the other” with greater ferocity.

I wondered how this episode of the FLDS being rounded up wholesale looked in other countries. Did it add to our perception around the world as bullies?

I’m not an expert on it, but I wonder what the history is of countries who are on the decline do in relation to the unpopular minorities within their borders. Is this a thread which runs through history?

the rationale for stretching the technical meaning of the term ‘paedophilia’, is this: the more appropriate phrase ‘systematic sexual abuse of women’ doesn’t seem to get enough people angry, in this age of ubiquitous misogynistic porn.
To say that using the term ‘paedophilia’ confuses the issue is to assume most lay people differentiate between pubescent children and non-pubescent children. Doubtful. To most people, the term ‘paedophilia’ refers to the sexual abuse of children generally, so in terms of the evolution of language, that IS the correct usage of the word.

I greatly appreciate the fact that you seem to have used your real name but i have to say that i can’t help vaguely disliking you for writing like a bloody academic ostrich, and deflecting the issue from social justice to semantics. I’m done.

Do you expect an apology for decrying the system of abuse of women (of any age) outlined below? Is there something wrong with you?

The most persecuted people in the USA are not Mormons, they are enormous swathes of the female population, in your country, as in mine, and across the world. Grow up and face this appalling social disease, a microcosm of fascist thinking that ultimately ends in pointless testosterone-fueled wars.

‘sure, you can argue the issue of polygamy between consenting ADULTS…..’

Can you? When the ‘consenting’ adults have been raised in a pernicious enviroment of extreme bigotry towards women, under claims of authority from God?
I don’t believe anyone can argue that and retain their decency.

Of course no one will apologize!  Mormons have long been the most persecuted religion in the US, and the tradition continues.

You know, what will two lost wars and economic disaster hitting the fan, people need scapegoats, and small, unpopular, religions are bound to suffer.

Now it turns out (according to the CNN website that these children man in fact be legal adults.  The State recorded the age of at lease one woman as 16 when she was actually 22.

If it turns out (after a trial) that there was in fact no pedophilia in this compound will FLDS get an appology from the State?  Will the posters on this board even say “oops” Or is polygamy between consenting adults enough to justify this venom.

Sorry I do not buy this (we have to protect adults from themselves) argument.  It is disgusting to me to so insert ones “opinion” into the lives of others. sort of like “idea rape” Our ideas are superior and we must inflict the on others.

Sure children must be protected, and adults who call for help should be assisted, but when no one is screaming, and when no child are damaged it seems unAmerican to stick ones nose where it does not belong.

This is not about individual behaviour, this is about a powerful patriarchal SYSTEM that leaves no room for female dissent or independence or choice, under threat of losing your loved ones forever:

From another case:

‘The reluctant bride and her two sisters described how she was forced into an arranged marriage with a 19-year-old cousin she did not like.

She said she protested that she was not ready for marriage, knew nothing about sex, and felt dirty, used and trapped after the marriage was consummated.

Her pleas to church leaders were ignored and Jeffs told her to submit “mind, body and soul” to her new husband, the young woman, now 21, told the jury.

Her sisters testified that most of the women in the family also opposed the marriage but were powerless to stop it.

Rebecca Musser, a sister who was a plural wife of the then sect leader, Rulon Jeffs, said her sister’s plea to Rulon Jeffs was ignored, and that Warren Jeffs pushed for the union.

The women would have faced dire social consequences, perhaps even banishment, if they spoke up, Musser said.

“We couldn’t stop this from happening,” she said. A heated exchange followed when defense attorney Walter Bugden suggested under cross-examination that the marriage could have been stopped.

“I couldn’t stop it,” she insisted. “If I was to call and to say I don’t agree with this, I could have been sent away from my family.”

She acknowledged during the exchange that she helped decorate her sister’s bedroom as a “honeymoon hideout,” placing chocolates, cookies and a congratulatory poster on the new queen-sized bed.

“You did not believe when you were decorating the room . . . that you were encouraging the rape of your sister?” Bugden asked.

“Not in those words, no,” she said.

All three sisters testified about their upbringing in the church, which emphasized that girls and women should “keep sweet” and submit to the wishes of their husbands and church leaders.

“To be sweet is to suffer silently regardless of what concerns you might have,” Musser explained. “It was extreme wickedness to resist in any way—even in the bedroom.”

Musser said she was married at age 19 to prophet Rulon Jeffs, who was in his 80s. Her sister’s marriage was arranged by Fred Jessop, the church’s bishop and third-ranking leader. He married the girls’ mother after their father was ex-communicated from the FLDS.

Jessop’s request was honored because of his standing in the church, she said

Jane Doe, as the reluctant bride is known in court, told the jury she avoided having sex with her new husband for weeks by hiding in her mother’s bedroom.’

Well, i guess by the standards of some of the people on this board, the little girl was just frigid and needed to be forced to grow up and have babies. After all, that’s what women are for, right?

Quite true.  Probably the biggest “sin” here is that the FLDS is not like everyone else.

Dear C, i’m sure the paedophiles who fantasize about pubescent children will be grateful for your words of support, and the world will be a better place because of your gentle wisdom.

You can debate and discuss and try to understand evil until there is nothing left to hate about it. Guess what you become then?

As I understand it, as a psychological term, pedophilia refers to the romantic and sexual attraction to pre-pubertal children. It has nothing to do with being attracted to 14 year olds, or 16 year olds.

It is a term which is bantered about much these days. For example, 18 year olds who are attracted to 16 year olds are labeled “pedophiles”, which is absurd, but there is more hysteria, than clarity, these days in the a patina of righteous panic over a group of young girls which may have been sexually active in that organization, the underlying purpose of which is to titillate. 

“Pedophilia”, these days, is a generic term which tells you everything and nothing. It is a quick-fix way of labelling somebody, who is attracted to a younger person, that displeases the observer.

Unfortunately, the term “pedophilia” is also being tossed about by people who rather prominent. For example, if a child is murdered, the person who perpetrated the horrible crime, these days, is no longer called what they are, a sociopath (sp), they are called a “pedophile”. You see that a lot these days of daytime talk shows. No objectivity, just emotionality.

As I understand it, as a psychological term, pedophilia refers to the romantic and sexual attraction to pre-pubertal children. It has nothing to do with being attracted to 14 year olds, or 16 year olds.

It’s a generic term which tells you everything and nothing. It is a quick-fix way of labelling somebody, who is attracted to a younger person, that displeases the observer.

Unfortunately, the term “pedophilia” is also being tossed about by people in the media, who are more expert in whipping up hysteria, than reason and clarity. For example, if a child is murdered, the person who perpetrated the horrible crime, these days, is no longer called what they are, a sociopath (sp), they’re called a “pedophile”. You won’t find that in the scientific literature, but you will see it bandied about with such terminology on daytime talk shows.

The “pedophile ring” label is good for whipping up hysteria, and ratings, such as in this case. The media people doing it are very often not interested in really understanding what they were really about. They are more interested in quick sound bytes and titillation.

I have no time for sects, religions or cultures (including mainstream Christianity) that takes away individual choice from women (or any other class of individual). Secluded religious communities are especially dangerous, since it is very difficult to make the choice of not complying with the social norms of such a community.

Nevertheless, calling this a paedophilia ring completely misses the point. The problem is not that fourteen-year-olds (who are for the most part sexually mature) are having sex with older men. The problem is that they have little or no choice in the matter. Paedophilia refers to sexual attraction to children (i.e. the sexually immature, not those below the legal age of consent). And paedophilia is in any event distinct from child sexual abuse (which refers to acting upon those paedophilic urges).

What was happening in this cult constitutes a form of abuse for sure, and the abuse probably extends to older women as much as the “children”. But “paedophile ring” is completely the wrong term to describe it, and by whipping up emotions merely contributes to a failure to see things clearly.

I remember the Chicago 7 trial. The papers had them all “guilty” before a single juror was selected.

Didn’t turn out that way.

The most effective way to “marginalize” folks today in a world which is somewhat accepting of the old “bogeymen”  is to call them pedophiles. I will await the outcome of the trial before throwing stones.

The problem is….the underage GIRLS have no choice in the matter…their choice is stolen….they have no destiny other than that which is forced upon them…..sure, you can argue the issue of polygamy between consenting ADULTS…..but not CHILDREN… (they can’t vote, enter into legal contracts, etc)

THat’s the core issue here….not just the sexual abuse….AND IT IS SEXUAL ABUSE…AND….they have no choice….

You know, folks, just because some authority figure says the earth is flat doesn’t mean it is.  Likewise, just because some government officials and journalists say “Those people are PEDOPHILES!!!’ doesn’t mean the claims are true. 

You’d think that after 8 years of the Bush administration lying every time they open their mouths, Americans would be sceptical of wild claims, but apparently some people will believe anything.

Lester Ness

P’rasty is in part a matter of definition.  Most places in the world, for most of human history, 15 year olds were adults.  Most places in the world, for most of human history, adults of all ages socialize normally.  We are all descended from a lot 15 year old mothers.  Americans divide themselves into age grades, and never talk (let alone get romantic with) anyone 5 years older or younger.  But America is not the world or the yardstick for humanity.

Are we abusive to our children when we feed them GM veggies and grains?  Are we abusive to Iraqi children every day?  Are we abusive to our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren when we create unsustainable footprints?

Yes.  Does that mean it is any more or less abusive to raise girls to marry old men when they are still children?  No.

The number in the title is made up and no doubt grossly underestimated.

I cannot even begin to describe the abuse of children I see every week.

FLD are pedophiles. The children do not love their parents. The children are brain washed. Brain washing is torture. If my parents were from this cult I would rather get through through separation axiety to be able to enjoy life as normal people should enjoy life. Being raped by a nasty, icky 50 year old man is not spiritual marriage. FLD are criminals in pioneer clothing.

I wonder how many children perished in Iraq in the 24 hours to my posting this. No need to worry. You won’t hear about it in the American media, and you sure as hell won’t see their pictures.

Remember the 500,000 children that perished in Iraq, due to the sanctions the U.S. imposed on the country for over a decade? Really, how much was that discussed in the U.S. media? Over the years, barely.

Were any of you aware of the parental practice of the “honor killing” of one’s daughter, carried out by the more fundamentalist strains of Sunni and Shia, when, for example, the daughter has been raped? Both Sunni and Shia lived next door to each other, even intermarried, before the American invasion of their country. The invasion helped pit them against each other, and the raping of girls of the other sect was one form of aggression. The girls would face either total abandonment by their families, or, at worst, their being killed by their families due to the shame they “brought” on the family by being raped.

Think I’m exaggerating? This story appeared within the last 24 hours over at Salon.com. It’s the story of an “honor killing” of a 17 year old girl, who developed a crush on an American G.I., and did the most “horrible” in the world she could have done, according to her family: she talked to him. She was murdered by her father and her brothers. I’ve provided a link to the story, but I warn you ahead of time, it is very upsetting to read: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2008/05/15/rand_abdel_qader/index.html

Maybe this is why Americans are perceived as being asleep around the world. We’re not interested in any of the truly horrific goings-on I have just posted about. Actually, we’re protected from knowing about them by the mainstream media. The few specialized outlets being the exception. But most American really don’t want to pursue it…

We’re too busy being outraged by 15 year old Miley Cyrus’ picture in Vanity Fair. For all the outrage, all that was exposed in the picture was her bare back, the SAME amount of exposure you would see if she were wearing a one piece bathing suit at the beach. But, you know, kids might be “influenced” by it. They might “get” sexual. Dirty old men might look at it and get turned on. That’s right. There are no malls or beaches for them to go to and see young girls in the U.S. 

Americans, of course, want to “save the children”, but in an odd way, at least compared to much of the rest of the world. What’s interesting, for example, is how long it took the 9/11 Commission to get investigations and hearings going, along with an uncooperative President, after thousands of Americans had perished. Yet, let Janet Jackson’s breast be exposed on national television for less than a complete second, and within weeks, FCC hearings on media “filth” are going full speed ahead.

Americans want to pass judgment on FLDS sect, without knowing anything more than what the mainstream media has passed down to us.

And, of course, Americans have such a wonderful mainstream media in this country, don’t we?

Without knowing anything, really, about the full story, we’ve already handed down sentences, and are acting judge, jury, and in one case, self-appointed castrator.

And not a single one of the children at FLDS died…

Myself, I humbly think all the children who have died, and continue to die, in Iraq, are a far greater concern.

But so many Americans seem to be more outraged by Miley Cyrus…

In time, I suspect we’ll find the bust was carried out at the behest of some Southern Baptist politician preparing for his next election, where he will boast about tough on crime and cults he is.  At least, no one was killed, unlike the Branch Davidian fiasco.

Lester

This is just another example of how disagreements, these days, particularly when they’re heated ones, so often, can’t be accomplished without the usual personal invective and name-calling.

I won’t respond in kind.

It doesn’t hurt me personally, but it is kind of sad to see the continuing and ongoing debasement of discussion and debate.

As I recall pedophilia was the excuse for attacking the Branch Davidians as well.

When parents or surrogates abuse children the society acts, but when the “system” abuses children there is collective silence.

40% of foster care clients report having been sexually molested.
Fully 1/3 of foster children graduate to homeless shelters, the street, or adult prisons.
Only 50% of foster care clients graduate from high school. less than 9% continue on to college (ever in their lives) 62% of all foster care clients become recipients of State aid as adults, and the saddest statistic of all, half of foster care clients contribute at least one child to the foster care system.

How can ANYTHING, including death, be worse?

I dusted off my textbooks from Religions West and Religions East; undergraduate courses I took at a public college in Oklahoma.  They distinctly mention Joseph Smith and the Latter Day Saints as an indigenous religion of the United States of America; invented here in the early 19th Century.  This church isn’t some hippie cult like the Manson Family.  If this church is not entitled to federal protection under the first amendment, I cannot imagine what religion would be.  It is a uniquely American religion.  If you think about it, the federal government should actually force Texas to restore this community to the way it was before the raid.

I ask you, exactly what area of human experience CAN religion address in the United States?  It appears that if one were to invent a new religion in the USA, it would necessarily have to be indistinguishable from Roman Christianity and it’s descendants in many respects.

Apparently, and according to this essayist, any new religion cannot address rites of passage (when someone becomes an adult), family structure, reproduction or any other truly important question addressed by religions around the world throughout history.  The FLDS church isn’t practicing human sacrifice or slavery.  Mental health workers in Texas have stated the children and adults in this group were in good health and well adjusted.  If this were a “rape camp” the mental health consequences would be immediately apparent.  If this were a rape camp the ranch would consist of aluminum buildings filled with cots; not carefully crafted homes, gardens, schools and a temple.

To characterize the FLDS church as a sexual criminal organization is similar to characterizing the southern baptists church as a “water boarding cult” because they practice baptismal immersion.  The notion of “celestial marriages” is only a small point in the constellation of this religion’s beliefs.  Get your mind out of the gutter essayist.

I ask you, what does contemporary American culture have to teach anyone about how to grow up, find a spouse or raise a child?

As for the so-called “lost boys”...  My mother threw all my clothes on the front porch and I was booted out of the house when I was barely 17.  My parents were Baptist and Presbyterian.  The essayist would seem to suggest all the children in my parent’s churches should be seized by the state because I didn’t want to follow house rules.

Although I am a man of science and reason; I don’t want the government to start plowing down churches; and I sure as hell don’t want to see paramilitary forces violently seizing children in mass.

These argumnents were once used to justify slavery last century.

What is the material difference between treating a person as property because of their race, and treating a person as property because of their sex?

Are you saying that the enslavement of African Americans would still be okay these days, under the all-forgiving idea of cultural relativism? After all, a lot of slaves were well-cared for, and didn’t know anything else.

You’re misogyny is truly incredible to behold. Why don’t you sign your full name, Chris? I guarantee that if i knew it, i wouldn’t let you near any young girl i cared about. I wouldn’t let you get within ten miles of her. 

I think you are scum.

Ellen Goodman may be shocked by these people and their practices, but the entering into marriage by people at a young age has a long history in the U.S. Mostly, of course, it was in the south. It was common for girls to marry at 13 and 14, and was an entirely acceptable part of southern culture for many generations.

It seems to be the way that we now approach people/ideas, which are different, in this country, to simply blow things up and ask questions later. Considering the large number of people involved, and without really having any genuine sense of the individual families and circumstances (other than how we’ve chosen to view them), has anyone considered that maybe far more damage is being done to many people with this sudden, and brutal, interruption of the life they had all known, to this point?

The American sledgehammer approach, whether to groups of people, or foreign countries, seems to be fully ensconced.