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Render Unto Darwin That Which Is Darwin’s

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Posted on May 11, 2008
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A stained-glass window at Yale University by Louis Comfort Tiffany imagines science and religion in harmony.

By Chris Hedges

The German chemist August Kekulé fell asleep in his study after a fruitless struggle to identify the chemical structure of benzene. He dreamed of a snake eating its own tail and awoke instantly. The dream gave him, through the ancient language of symbolism, the circular structure of the benzene ring that had eluded his conscious mind. The dream may have had its basis in Kekulé’s experiments, but it was the nonrational that brought him his discovery.

Many physicists see “string theory”—in which the structure of the universe is made up of resonating, one-dimensional submicroscopic strings—as plausible. Yet no scientist has ever seen a string. No direct experimentation has established a firm ground for strings. Cosmology routinely bases arguments on things that cannot be seen in order to explain things that can, as in the case of “dark matter,” whose effects can be seen. Quantum physics demolished the assumption that physical elements are governed by fixed laws. 

Science is often as inexact and intuitive as theology, philosophy and every other human endeavor. A mirror demonstrates the randomness of nature. A mirror reflects about 95 percent of light hitting it. The other 5 percent passes through the mirror. Photons, which are invisible, are either reflected or pass through the mirror’s surface. But there is no way of knowing which photons will be reflected and which will be absorbed. Electrons are also subject to these quantum effects. This led Werner Heisenberg to formulate his “uncertainty principle.” This principle states that we cannot know everything about a particle. If we can determine a particle’s position we cannot determine its momentum. We can measure momentum, but in this measurement we lose the particle’s exact position. We can know a particle’s momentum or its position. We cannot know both with definitive accuracy.

Science is not always directly empirical. Science is not governed by absolute, immutable laws. Science, and especially quantum mechanics, far from telling us we can know everything, tells us there will always be things we cannot know. No one ultimately understands. Science affirms the complexity and mystery of the universe. Science, like the religious impulse, opens us up to a world where we face mystery. There are forces in the universe that will always lie beyond the capacity of the human mind. 

The New Atheist writers from Richard Dawkins to E.O. Wilson to Sam Harris have become the high priests not of science but the cult of science. Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and Susan Blackmore, for example, call religious beliefs “memes.” Memes are defined as cultural artifacts—prototypical ideas—that invade and restructure minds in order to reproduce themselves. A meme replicates in human minds, they argue, the way genes replicate in human bodies. Memes include a word, belief, thought, religious ritual, dance, poem or any of the myriad of behaviors that are copied and reproduced in human societies. Although memes, unlike genes, are not identifiable physical structures, Dawkins uses the image of a virus to describe them. Religion, for Dawkins, is equated with a disease, and the religiously inclined are disease carriers. 

The attempt to equate patterns of human society with the behavior of genes, while it sounds plausible, and may even be instructive in some settings, is part of this cult of science. The genetic coding that permits the transfer of DNA-encoded units of information is fairly precise. But this model fails to work for the transfer of cultural, social, ethical and political behavior. Patterns of morality are easily reversed or erased, especially in ages of revolutionary fervor, war, anarchy, fear, social decline and despotism. Those who are schooled in identical religious texts, even within the same communities, have different views of morality and ethics. It is possible to transfer literal meaning. It is possible to transfer genetic information. It is possible to pass on heritable characteristics mediated by hard-and-fast rules of chemistry and physics. These rules, however, have no counterpart in the dissemination of ideas. Ideas do not replicate like genes. Ideas are snuffed out or forgotten, often for centuries. Ideas that prevail are often not the best ideas but more often ideas backed by power. The rise of Christianity owed more to the brutality of Constantine and the Holy Roman Empire than it did its particular theology. Those who advocate the theory of memes ignore the role of power, repression, persecution and force in human history, as well as the inherent chaos and irrationality of human thought. Human thought cannot be treated like an object in a laboratory. There is no scientific mechanism that explains cultural evolution.

Those who endorse the meme theory speak of memetic engineering. This memetic engineering would involve the conscious manipulation of intellectual evolution by disseminating good memes and curtailing bad ones. The question of who decides which memes are good and which bad is not raised. Dennett has argued that human evolution can be shaped and directed through memetic engineering. He advocates not science but indoctrination, an updated version of thought control. The theory of memes and memetic engineering, like the idea of the new man, is another form of magical thinking. It is not real. It has no more scientific validity than Intelligent Design. And, should it ever be adopted it would result in anti-intellectualism, a war on science and democratic freedom and a silencing of those who fail to conform. The world the high priests of memetic engineering propose is as repugnant as the fundamentalist utopia advocated by the radical Christian right.

Einstein’s quest for a unified field theory explaining subatomic structure or the Big Bang no more undermined religious contemplation than evolutionary biology. The questions of science are not the questions of religion. Science does not attempt to address, nor is it capable of addressing, the final mystery of existence, our moments of transcendence, the moral life, love, our search for meaning and our mortality. Science, limited to what can be proved and disproved, is a morally neutral discipline. It serves human needs and human ambitions. There are times when it protects and advances life. There are times when it empowers ambitions that are immoral and deadly. Science, like all human endeavors, comes with good and bad, possibilities of hope and possibilities of destruction. 

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By Hemi*, May 15 at 11:59 am #
(183 comments total)

From just a rudimentary internet

From just a rudimentary internet investigation on “Kekulé’s theory” I found the general belief is that the “snake eating its own tail” vision came after his work on the structure of benzene was completed and was not considered the catalyst for his findings.  My guess is that it added mystery and awe to his public persona and at the same time caused him some embarrassment among contemporary scientists.  There reportedly had been a lampoon version of his vision with “monkeys holding hands in a ring formation” circulating before the “snake” dream was made known.

And then there is this: “Evolutionary science, however, swiftly became for many a surrogate religion. It was used to promote racism and pseudo-science, such as eugenics, a theory of biological determinism invented by Francis Galton, Darwin’s cousin. It was turned like a club on religion and used to justify exploitation and neglect of the poor and disadvantaged.”

I ask you who are these “many”? Where is the historical account of this abrupt shift from theology to cosmology? Where are the “Galtonians”?  Galton was an important scientist and advanced a number of fields.  That he was incorrect on a few select and perhaps repugnant points has been corrected not by religion but by science.  Is it surprising that corruption can take hold in most human thoughts and endeavors?  Does that negate fact?  Did the earth stop orbiting the sun when Galileo was forced to recant heliocentrism?  Human exploitation existed prior to both religion and science. Human exploitation based on science is a crime. Human exploitation based on religion is the “stuff that dreams are made of”. Religion spawns religions in the great circle of tribal warfare. Sort of a “snake eating its own tail” or a “guy with his head shoved up his own ass”.

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By Shenonymous, May 15 at 8:51 am #
(896 comments total)

Site is working in a manner of speaking

Well here’s part 2 if it can get posted. This particular TD website is almost as crazy as Hedges…

Part 2
His attack on the theories of Dawkins, Dennett, et al, is grandstanding at its worst really; his arguments are weakly supported.  His accusation that they are proposing a “meme religion” is ridiculous at best.  If one were to actually read “The Selfish Gene,” chapter 11 to be exact, or Blackmore’s “The Meme Machine.” one with half a mind could see they are likening the transmission of “memeplexes” of religion as how cultural behaviors are exchanged.  It is no more a religion as Darwin’s theory of evolution.  There are no meme churches nor tithing plates to donate money to as do all the religions.  Uh, pardon me.  If it is wanted to call all scientists pastors of their theories then that is an insane stretch of defintion.

Religion has a definite connotation, as a belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers as regarded as creator and governor of the universe.  There is no worship of meme theory just as there is no worship of gene theory.  The fact that there is no worship at all among a growing number of the population must be the classic Shakespearean rub.

Seems like Hedges would like the Dark Ages to return and send science to the hell he invented.

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By evilive, May 15 at 7:58 am #
(66 comments total)

It seems that so many

It seems that so many people are so dedicated to their parents’ nonsense, and are quietly aware of their intellectual cowardice that they must insist that they have some extra-special understanding, above and beyond deep indoctrination into family tradition. Either that or they are so damned frightened that they must insist that the have a home in Glory Land.  Oh well.  If you’re going to be scared, you might as well be really, really, super-duper scared.

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By Shenonymous, May 15 at 7:48 am #
(896 comments total)

Re: Revisiting memes and Darwin

This site does not work right!  Hmmm.  Looks like my post got posted doubly and the second part didn’t.  Too bad.  Weird that I can’t get logged in for this forum but all the others are working just fine????  Haunted?  Naw, ain’t no such things as ghosts.  I posted a full comment on the Secular Fundamentalism site which seem to be a clear site to carry on the discussion from this forum.  See you there, maybe.

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By Shenonymous, May 15 at 5:42 am #
(896 comments total)

A Roman approach to appropriation

In his good book, The Selfish Gene, Richard Dawkins begins chapter 2, The Replicators, pg. 13 paperback, with the sentence, “In the beginning was simplicity.” It is the mantra of all good science whether we are talking about the nature of a benzene molecule, string theory, snakes eating their own tails, dark matter, a unified field theory, an uncertainty principle, Darwin’s theory of evolution, a theory of cultural transmission, or the notion of an abstract idea such as Truth.  It would be a good idea to apply it also to any notion of god, which is what actually happened when the change from polytheism to monotheism occurred to the mind of mankind (using the term mankind because it is from the mental devices of men that the idea of god sprang much in the same way that Athena sprang from the mind of Zeus, whole and ready to take on the world, except of course Athena was hidden there by her mother! and it took an ax to let her out of Zeus’s head).  You must pardon this amusing digression.

Christopher Hedges wants to offer his usual bargain basement philosophy with a shopping bag full of examples that cultural traditions are somehow transmitted through some non-rational means in opposition to Richard Dawkins’ completely rational idea of meme conveyance.  Except Hedges exaggerates with unholy exuberance in order to shine brighter than the actually dull thesis he offers.  Such as when he says dark matter can be seen!  See his 2nd paragraph.  He wants to make the case that science is as elusive in its knowledges as theology (we can let philosophy and. every other human endeavors go since we know he is really after exonerating theology).  He sort of takes the Berkeleyan view that if you don’t see it, you don’t know if it really exists.  The problem with Hedges’ comparison is that science knows its limitations and knows it works on inference and implication where as theology thinks is has a grasp of Truth.  Science always leave the door open to questions and evaluation, whereas religion demands faith its dogmas are true. 

Hedges says, with only derivative understanding “There are forces in the universe that will always lie beyond the capacity of the human mind.” The really big problem is to say that science is no always directly empirical is a fact is incorrect and Hedges’ edifice falls flat on its face.  Nothing is every directly empirical since nothing is ever experienced directly.  Not even oneself!  There is always a “time” delay in cognition of the sense of oneself and all reflections of oneself is thereby delayed.  We are always viewing even the thoughts in our own minds in a historical perspective.  Because it takes “time” for thoughts to travel around the synapes and come to rest in the region of contemplation or if you prefer, reflection.  We never experience the world or ourselves directly except as sensations immediately occur without thought about them.  We are constantly and helplessly inferring ourselves and the world.  We imagine ourselves and the world in which we find ourselves.  Hedges’ eccentricity for religion is to criticize science and scientists imperfectly.  Do with it what you will.

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By Shenonymous, May 15 at 5:40 am #
(896 comments total)

A Roman approach of appropriation

In his good book, The Selfish Gene, Richard Dawkins begins chapter 2, The Replicators, pg. 13 paperback, with the sentence, “In the beginning was simplicity.” It is the mantra of all good science whether we are talking about the nature of a benzene molecule, string theory, snakes eating their own tails, dark matter, a unified field theory, an uncertainty principle, Darwin’s theory of evolution, a theory of cultural transmission, or the notion of an abstract idea such as Truth.  It would be a good idea to apply it also to any notion of god, which is what actually happened when the change from polytheism to monotheism occurred to the mind of mankind (using the term mankind because it is from the mental devices of men that the idea of god sprang much in the same way that Athena sprang from the mind of Zeus, whole and ready to take on the world, except of course Athena was hidden there by her mother! and it took an ax to let her out of Zeus’s head).  You must pardon this amusing digression.

Christopher Hedges wants to offer his usual bargain basement philosophy with a shopping bag full of examples that cultural traditions are somehow transmitted through some non-rational means in opposition to Richard Dawkins’ completely rational idea of meme conveyance.  Except Hedges exaggerates with unholy exuberance in order to shine brighter than the actually dull thesis he offers.  Such as when he says dark matter can be seen!  See his 2nd paragraph.  He wants to make the case that science is as elusive in its knowledges as theology (we can let philosophy and. every other human endeavors go since we know he is really after exonerating theology).  He sort of takes the Berkeleyan view that if you don’t see it, you don’t know if it really exists.  The problem with Hedges’ comparison is that science knows its limitations and knows it works on inference and implication where as theology thinks is has a grasp of Truth.  Science always leave the door open to questions and evaluation, whereas religion demands faith its dogmas are true. 

Hedges says, with only derivative understanding “There are forces in the universe that will always lie beyond the capacity of the human mind.” The really big problem is to say that science is no always directly empirical is a fact is incorrect and Hedges’ edifice falls flat on its face.  Nothing is every directly empirical since nothing is ever experienced directly.  Not even oneself!  There is always a “time” delay in cognition of the sense of oneself and all reflections of oneself is thereby delayed.  We are always viewing even the thoughts in our own minds in a historical perspective.  Because it takes “time” for thoughts to travel around the synapes and come to rest in the region of contemplation or if you prefer, reflection.  We never experience the world or ourselves directly except as sensations immediately occur without thought about them.  We are constantly and helplessly inferring ourselves and the world.  We imagine ourselves and the world in which we find ourselves.  Hedges’ eccentricity for religion is to criticize science and scientists imperfectly.  Do with it what you will.

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By Wink Magic, May 14 at 1:53 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Interesting article

I enjoyed the article.  Despite the derogatory comments I hope you will still continue to write in this vein.

Sun surely,
Brian

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By pitleaper, May 14 at 12:40 pm #
(7 comments total)

Thanks for the list.  There’re a few I haven’t read and would like to.  Hang in there.

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By Wilf Loree, May 14 at 10:41 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

A simple answer

With such complicated argument and rebutal, how is the “average” person to understand what life and living are all about? There must be, like the seaarch for a consice and comprehensive theory of existance, a simpler explanation. Perhaps we are so caught up and confused by knowledge and the confusing content of consciousness we cannot see what is simply true. And such truth, I suggest, is beyond words that can only otherwise be conveyed and passed on in behaviour. And only if that behaviour reflects a love for one another is there any chance for our civilization, so called, to survive.

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By Richard Hudson, May 14 at 8:37 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Hedges must devolve into beating the same old dead horse because all of the arguments that are pro-deity become categorically formulaic.  I have said for a long time that church attendance was listening to the oldest and most boring book report, and poor Chris has no other ammunition than this.  Hedges is a Christian moderate and rails against the evangelicals of his faith, calling them “fascists”.  Sam Harris, whose writings show only passing interest in meme theory, considers moderate Christians such as Hedges to be the war elephants on which the wild-eyed evangelicals ride.  I believe this is what rankles Hedges against Harris.  Uniquely, Hedges fails to mention Christopher Hitchens whose antipathy toward religion is, in my opinion, more inflammatory and every bit as cogent as the “group” that Hedges has chosen to do battle with.  Also, I believe, Hitchens’ is the only one who has taken Hedges personally to task and I can’t imagine why he chose to leave poor Christopher out of the group.  Was it, perhaps trepidation?  Alas, it’s true; a debate with Christopher Hitchens tends to leave God’s defenders more than a bit bloodied.  Hitchens will only go at it bare-knuckled.

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By demar, May 14 at 8:03 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

I love the way the truth manifests itself with such clarity. Your comments on Chris Hedges blarney make my day. Could anyone explain to me why the left is pushing back on writers such as Sam Harris? Tom Hartman of Air America had Sam on as a guest and proceeded to attack him from the get go. Hartman hadn’t even read his whole book so he misunderstood him completely. What is the origin of the term, radical atheist? Is Truthdig part of this push back?

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By Bruce, May 14 at 7:58 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

huh

I have seen Hedges talk and read his ramblings on truthdig, and always have the same reaction.
“why do they waste space with this guy”?
Harvard divinity, woopdeedo
unreadable. I try, really I do.
But, unreadable

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By woody, May 14 at 5:47 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Wisdom from a child-molester? Great.

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By Terry Sanders, May 14 at 5:19 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

In sum, you’ve become the defender of superstition. By criticizing the extreme far-right, you feel empowered to proclaim that primitive superstition is still ok as long as it doesn’t go Taliban wacko.

Science really doesn’t matter here. It is your insistence on denying common sense in the vain hope of validating your very expensive and pointless degree that appears to be your real agenda.

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By omprem, May 14 at 4:50 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

reply to lightiris May 12

What is your point? All you have done is to issue a series of ad hominems against Mr Hedges and restate what you claim to be his point of view to suit your own purposes. If you have something to say, say it.

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By Robert Brwon, May 14 at 4:50 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Hedges ought to try actually reading Dawkins et

Hedges’ arguments are not even wrong, they’re just incomprehesible pseudoscientific giberish. It’s not even worth responding to so I’ll only say that if he has read any of the authors he criticises he obiously hasn’t understood a word they wrote and clearly he has no idea of what science is or isn’t.

robbrownsyd

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By Lena Herzog, May 13 at 6:27 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Science vs religion = wrong to even compare

The profound difference between science and religion is that a paradigm change and even slight readjustments are in the very nature of science. Belief never does that; it is a static system. Any credible adjustment of a faulty paradigm in any discipline of science brings about changes, small and big, sometimes so profound that they change the way we view the world. As religious institutions always sought a tight grip on our existential outlook they rightly saw science as a threat. But it is a psychological reaction and has a poor intellectual ground. Science and religion have nothing to do with each other. Chris Hedge’s resentment towards science as the usurper of truth is misplaced, science falters and makes mistakes and clings to myths (he rightly observes) as its authors are human, they are the same authors of god. But science is an usurper of a more dynamic method which at its best application brings out the best in us: ability to think critically and re-evaluate.

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By c, May 13 at 6:22 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

At no point do Dawkins and E.O. Wilson “insist we are moving toward a final good.”

You have misunderstood their viewpoints, possibly out of a lack of scientific knowledge, perhaps on purpose. They argue that our intelligence and reasoning capacity gives us the ability to, in Dawkins’ words, “rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators”—our genes. 

There is a simple proof for this: birth control. We use it, although our biological makeup is configured to compel us to reproduce far more often.

There. You lose. Seriously, look it up—that’s the kind of thing they’re talking about. Don’t just take my word for it.

As for the rest of the article—well, if it had some structure, I could maybe address a few of its points. But it’s all over the map, like a Burroughs novel. The point seems to be to pile on enough innuendo and strawman arguments that readers will just throw their hands up in surrender.

And the sentences are needlessly convoluted. You know, kind of like when a writer is trying to obscure the weak points of an argument.

Now stay the hell off of my turf.

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By troublesum, May 13 at 5:38 pm #
(312 comments total)

The new atheists are offended at the idea that there could be anything in the universe greater than themselves.  The atheistic scientists hold the rather naive belief that if God exists he can be found in the same way they discovered electrons.  We all tend to believe that apprehending God is easy and that we are all capable of it.  What Rilke wrote a hundred years ago rings even truer today: “...the whole so-called ‘spirit world’, death, all these things that are so closely related to us have through our daily defensiveness been so entirely pushed out of life that the senses with which we might have been able to grasp them have atrophied.  To say nothing of God.”
Rumi, the Islamic spiritual and literary genius, said, “the man who doesn’t worship God will worship an idol, and the idol of every man is his own ego.” Ours is the culture of idolatry.

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By evilive, May 15 at 7:27 am #
(66 comments total)

Re:

No, triplesum, yours is an ideology of suffering and death.

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By Manson, May 14 at 2:51 am #
(8 comments total)

Re: By troublesum

“The atheistic scientists hold the rather naive belief that if God exists he can be found in the same way they discovered electrons.”

It seems to me the naiveté is rather the opposite - just because those practicing the scientific method have not yet measured something in no way indicates that those practicing religion somehow can.

In fact, religion has yet to provide any testable, repeatable methods of knowing that aren’t readily available to those unbridled by religion.

Senses atrophied… boy, you can say that again.

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By Earnric, May 13 at 3:02 pm #
(3 comments total)

“Quantum physics demolished the assumption that physical elements are governed by fixed laws.

Science is often as inexact and intuitive as theology, philosophy and every other human endeavor.” ...

This statement is simply wrong and belies a person who doesn’t understand what science “is”.

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By mill, May 13 at 1:27 pm #
(23 comments total)

Mr. Hedges writes as though rampant anti-theist nonemperical humanism is controlling important things, like public policy, government spending, popular opinion.

If only - instead the opposite holds. 

imagine a world where reality, commonly defined, strongly shaped the opinions of those who are in real control, whether those controllers are theists or not, scientists or not, politicians or not

and then they acted like they cared about the rest of us as a result

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By Uncle Ernie, May 13 at 12:23 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Render Unto Darwin That Which Is Darwin’s

Son you better put that crack pipe down, it’s making you null and void. Harvard Divinity, why am I not surprised? Could you explain the talking snake theory, please?

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By DR, May 13 at 11:25 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Give it up, Hedges

How many times can you write the same post, but with different words? Mr Hedges is certainly attempting to establish the record here. Give it up, and go on to better pursuits; you have lost all credibility on this issue a while ago. Here’s what you’ve been going for the last year, Mr Hedges:

1. You claim without any sort of substantial argument, that Atheism is nothing but another religion.

2. You claims and whatever thin arguments are thoroughly rebutted, repeatedly.

3. You completely ignore the counter arguments, and simply go on and repeat the whole cycle all over again.

It’s like a dog chasing its tail: good for some entertainment at first, but after a while you start thinking he might need some kind of medical help…

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By Vermonter17032, May 13 at 9:49 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Hedges is a good man, but off base

I suspect the reason religious people get so agitated by a few atheists is that they realize that their altars are built on sand. Unlike too many religious people, no modern atheists call for wars against those with other views, despite what Hedges tries to imply. Science itself evolves. It admits mistakes and adapts. It grows and, while never perfect, always improves our understanding of the universe. Religion, on the other hand, has not substantially brought us any closer to understanding the universe than it did 3000 years ago. Every atheist I know is a moral person. That’s more than I can say about all the religious people I know—in case this last sentence is misunderstood, let me clarify: I know people who espouse religious beliefs who are immoral people. I do not know any atheists who are. There are religious people who support violence against those who do not share their views.

Then think about this: In the United States an avowed atheist would have no chance to be elected president. People would gladly tell pollsters, “No, I will not vote for someone who does not believe in God.” Yet, I would bet you will not find a single atheist who would not vote for someone simply for his or her religious beliefs.

And yet it is the religious who get their holy relics in a bunch because a few atheists have managed to get a word or two in edgewise in this debate. Says something to me about the strength of their beliefs.

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By Luigi, May 13 at 9:23 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Non-Existence of God

As Woody Allen once said, “No one can prove the non-existence of God.  It’s something that has to be accepted on faith.”

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By David Bryson, MD (Yale '63), May 13 at 6:28 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

physics first had its Newton, and then had its Einstein - evolution first had its Darwin, and has
been awaiting its Einstein - next year, 2009, is the 200th anniversary of Darwin’s birth and also 150 years since the publication of The Origin of Species - a global curriculum inspired by the Einstein of Evolution is in production, and welcomes
inquiries and assistance -
google Bryson + Cosmopolitics for relevant links

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By Hemi*, May 13 at 5:55 am #
(183 comments total)

Look, before you throw your take on “meme theory” at me, explain what the flyin’ f*ck is “Harvard Divinity School”? Does graduating from such an institution give you license to use a “divining rod”? If so, could said rod help you to find a clue?

I had no idea “Professor Irwin Corey” was alive and well. Enough of the “onward Christian soldiers apologist hysterical double-talk” please. There’s nothing left worth reporting is there TruthDig? You hired this guy and now don’t know what to do with him. You keep throwing him on stage hoping the audience will finally “get him”. It ain’t working, there’s nothing to “get”.

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By J. Smith, May 13 at 4:13 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Dear Chris Hedges,

The following are some concerns and critique I have with regard to your arguments.

“It certainly is not Darwinian science. Darwin wrote nothing to indicate...” This is inconsistent. Here you cite Darwin directly in support of one of your arguments, but in another section, you observe (accurately), that Darwin was not the final word on evolution and that we have learned a great deal more since Darwin’s time.

In the second, third and fourth paragraphs you seemingly attempt to undermine science in the mind of the reader through a disingenuous misrepresentation of the uncertainty principle (which has yeilded predictions and formulae that have proved to be anything but uncertain) and several other areas of research. Your comments about Dark Matter not being “seen”, and the not-so-subtle implication that therefore Science is faith-based is simply obfuscating the conversation without making any real contribution to it. This is also just grossly wrong, and I shouldn’t need to spell out to you the rock solid merits of implied scientific observations. The idea that only by having actual photons from an event strike your retina can you make any truly meaningful ‘observation’ is just absurd and flies in the face of many great scientific breakthroughs that were made in exactly this manner.

To say that the “questions of science are not the questions of religion” is to ignore the current reality faced by many concerned parents at the prospect of intelligent design being forced into American schools, and then there is the whole tiresome issue of stem-cell research. What you mean when you say “religion” seems to be your own idealistic benevolent definition of religion - or perhaps what you wish religion could become - and it is at variance the religion those of us out here in the real world are experiencing. This was also very apparent in your debate with Sam Harris I thought.

If you are advocating a contemporary, thoughtful, evolved version of religion, please make this clear. Attacking Harris and others for calling a spade a spade, when you are substituting his spade for a queen of diamonds benefits no-one.

I find this article contradictory and idealistic, and coming up short in furthering our discussion or understanding of this issue. You are preoccupied with attacking these “leaders of the cult” personally, rather than suggesting alternative ideas. Instead of offering contructive critique, you offer obfuscations.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with everything you’re saying. This debate is very important and I have been following your contributions. But please, please, let’s be honest about it. If you cannot make a point in a thoroughly truthful, genuine manner, don’t attempt to make it.

I look forward to hearing more from you.

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By ManoZezez, May 13 at 2:49 am #
(7 comments total)

These Harris quotes do not discuss “moral hierarchies among human beings” or “[using] these hierarchies to sanction violence”. Although Harris disagrees with Islamism, this isn’t the stated reason he’s advocating violence. He’s advocating violence in self-defence because he thinks Islamists pose a threat. I don’t happen to agree with what Harris says, but Hedges was criticising uncited atheists for holding genocidal attitudes, and that wouldn’t be the content of the criticism I’d level at Harris.

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By congressive, May 13 at 1:12 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

The Nash Equilibrium defines morality, particularly behaviors which best insure the success of proximate populations, much better than any delusions of religious madmen high on acacia bark.

No, religion will go the way of segregation.  They are both crowd control based on ignorance and ego.

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By evilive, May 12 at 9:47 pm #
(66 comments total)

Hedges the Bet

Reminds me of Pascal’s Wager.  Nice try.

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By Billy the Dik, May 12 at 9:29 pm #
(610 comments total)

Hey Manson...

It is so tiring to read your oblivious demands to obfuscate ‘atheist’ and ‘agnostic’ as if you are immune to mere rules of syntax, logic, and agreements of definitions, because you have a better idea of what they “might” mean in one of your self-indulgent moods.  Well, chase your tail until you turn blue.  Demand that you, unlike those uncool agnostics, are atheist, a real gone definer and decider.  Yes, I am effected by your immature foot-stomping bratactics.  I’m going to sleep.

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By niloroth, May 12 at 8:30 pm #
(213 comments total)

Once again

Hedges attributes ideas and positions to the “atheists” that he does not in any way shape or form support with evidence.

Hedges writes:
“The atheists, while they do not endorse the hierarchy of races or espouse the crude racist doctrines of earlier Social Darwinists, continue to argue that natural selection is social selection. They continue to create moral hierarchies among human beings and use these hierarchies to sanction violence. They do this because they insist we are moving toward a final good. This is not a position supported by human history, human nature or evolutionary biology.”

Notice the serious lack of citation, or reference, or in fact, even any idea who it is who holds these beliefs.  Other than of course to label the “atheists”. 

Now, to take one of Hedges favorite boogymen, lets get a quote from Dawkins:
“Now, to the matter of Darwin. The first thing to say is that natural selection is a scientific theory about the way evolution works in fact. It is either true or it is not, and whether or not we like it politically or morally is irrelevant. Scientific theories are not prescriptions for how we should behave. I have many times written (for example in the first chapter of A Devil’s Chaplain) that I am a passionate Darwinian when it comes to the science of how life has actually evolved, but a passionate ANTI-Darwinian when it comes to the politics of how humans ought to behave. I have several times said that a society based on Darwinian principles would be a very unpleasant society in which to live. I have several times said, starting at the beginning of my very first book, The Selfish Gene, that we should learn to understand natural selection, so that we can oppose any tendency to apply it to human politics. Darwin himself said the same thing, in various different ways. So did his great friend and champion Thomas Henry Huxley.”

So once again, Hedges is tilting at windmills, creating straw men to knock down, and full on fabricating the positions of those he rails against.  Sadly, this seems to be typical of him when writing about anyone who does not ascribe to the same watered down, mealy mouthed, make believe version of theology that he does. 

Nice try again Hedges, but like all the other ones, you are quickly shown for your ignorance and bias.  How long till this one falls off the front page out of shame?

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By Joan, May 12 at 3:59 pm #
(22 comments total)

Hedges’ piece and the responses make an interesting illustration of some cases in point. Those whiny assaults on religion surely speak to Hedges’ position that there has been little evolution in humanity’s supposed journey to perfection, becoming intellectually superior masters of the universe that Dawkins predicts from what scientific evidence, I do not know. His contention is mystifying for sure. I would not accept some of that whiny anti- religious reasoning from a freshman philosophy student, never mind potential biologic geniuses we are purported by Dawkins to be evolving into.

Now onto memetics…there is no empirical evidence to support the existence of a meme much less the bizarre theory that Dawkins proceeds to build on this fantasy/entity. The only science, if it be science, on passing along societal mores and group think has been done by anthropologists. And Dawkins ridicules the idea of the virgin birth as fantasy! At least Christians honestly call this notion a miracle…Who are the realists here?

Lastly, certain atheists here make another of Hedges’ points beautifully. Hedges argues that the new atheism is just intellectual repression disguised as a new form of intellectual enlightenment …as Maani suggests, read a book or two on the topic that the potential masters of the universe are discussing in order to grasp first the nuances of the theological/scientific points before attempting to refute them. This way these points can be addressed intelligently and one would not have to resort to the “Neanderthal” tactics of bashing and browbeating those who disagree with you. So much for intellectual evolution and the new repression of diverse thought.

As far as I can see, Hedges is right on the money here.

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By Epicurus, May 12 at 2:52 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Science does something that religion never does, and never will do: science welcomes and incorporates facts as they are presented, whether they agree with the theory to which they apply, or not, and adjusts any discovery to incorporate the newly-discovered evidence – thus growing and improving the view we have of reality. Science is never “proven” – it offers a view that explains the world as we see it, a view that is subject to improvement, adjustment, or even reversal, if the facts require that to be done; science gets better by discrete steps, getting closer to the truth, with each step. Religion, on the other hand, is set, hardened, incorrigible, dogmatic, and incapable of changing its notions. It rules as a dictator, denying any and all facts that oppose its dogma. It does not grow.

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By truthreader13, May 12 at 2:34 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

This article is nothing but a piece of nonsense
defending blind faith in some fairy tales which are called religions.
Science is based on proven facts and scientists are
the first one to admit that they do not know the
secret or the truth of every thing in the universe but science is progressing and more facts and secrets are discovered each day.
It happens and happened sometimes that science make an error or some one try to use science for his base human motives like justifying using nuclear weapons
“a.k.a Harris” but that does not invalidate what
science has discovered and accomplished.
One fairy tale which Hedges is defending said
“GOD” created the universe in seven days and he
created the sun after creating the earth and the
first humans were expelled from “paradise” when they
listned to a snake and discovered sex.!! And all
that happened no more than six thousands years ago.
Pleee..ze give me a break.

,

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By Maani, May 12 at 2:31 pm #
(1271 comments total)

Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Leeuwenhoek, Pasteur, Curie, Washington Carver, Pascal, Brahe, Kelvin, Maxwell, Faraday, Darwin - deists or Christians all.  Some of them believed that the scientific truths they discovered only further revealed the “glory” of God; some did not.  But none of them saw any conflict between science and the scientific method on the one hand, and faith and religion on the other.

This puts the lie to accusations that somehow “believers” have not only contributed nothing to science, but that they stand in opposition to it.

As for string theory (which is actually NOT a theory, but only a hypothesis), multiple universes, much of quantum mechanics (including the hypotheses that a particle can spin in both directions at once or be in two places at the same time), etc., since none of these can EVER be tested, non-falsified or even properly subjected to the scientific method, they hold no more weight than a belief in God.

Indeed, I had a short debate with Victor Stenger recently on this topic.  In addressing how the universe began, if not by a Creator (since science accepts that “something” cannot be gotten from “nothing"), he spoke of a “pre-universe” that either collapsed and then “re-exploded” or a deSitter universe which essentially “leaked,” causing the “Big Bang.” I asked, “Since your hypothesis can NEVER be tested, non-falsified or subject to the scientific method, aren’t you essentially asking us all to take it ‘on faith’?”

Since this was at an informal meeting of a chapter of CSI (Center for Skeptical Inquiry) - and he assumed he would be speaking only to “the choir” - he stood in shocked silence for a moment, and then hemmed and hawed through an answer which basically simply repeated what he had said before.  I then asked, “But if we are asked to take this hypothesis ‘on faith,’ why is that any different from asking you to take God ‘on faith?’” His response, after a short pause, was, “Well, it seems unnecessary to suggest a theological explanation when there are perfectly good scientific explanations.”

Even some of the atheists in the room saw through that one, and were clearly unsatisfied with that response.

Peace.

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By PatrickHenry, May 12 at 1:48 pm #
(1109 comments total)

Political Darwinism

Republicans evolving into progressive democrats then into constitutionalists.

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By Inquisitor, May 12 at 1:22 pm #
(19 comments total)

Reply to ManoZezez Part 1

This is in reply to ManoZezez (May 12, 5:30ish am), and to some extent to tdbach (at 6:30am) and Billy the Dik (at 7am)

First, I want to congratulate ManoZezez on being a true inquirer: actually caring what the truth is, rather than finding new and creative ways to denigrate and morally/intellectually condemn people who believe differently.

I feel sorry that no one has addressed your points in the systematic way that you presented them, though I note that no one flamed you either--it would appear the more pro-religious posters in the Truthdig comment crew are less inclined to reactive invective; in fact it seems that it was two relatively pro-religious--or at least not anti-religious--posters (tdbach and billy the dik) who were most impressed by your arguments.

I believe you honored Chris Hedges by quoting him accurately and offering well-argued refutations.  You deserve the same honor.

---
1. In your discussion of Kekulé’s dream, you mistakenly equate having an idea with having a discovery. A scientific discovery doesn’t just require generating a hypothesis, but also testing it.
---

This is a fair point; I would add that while the non-rational can be a good source of hypotheses, it is best to activate the rational when seeking to test them.  It is no small point that the non-rational is a good source of hypotheses, however.  To the extent our social norms and the structure of our educational system seeks to demonize and marginalize irrational and arational thinking, they will also marginalize creativity and imagination, and thus potentially restrict the range of scientific pursuit.  In a society where irrational and arational imagination is taboo, our rational skills may find themselves increasingly directed to solving technical problems for business, industry and the military.

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2. String theory is still untested and it’s misleading to suggest that physicists have already accepted it. The interest in it stems from the possibility that it could unify a lot of phenomena.
---

I’m not sure that Hedges implied this; again his main point was the value of the non-rational in generating such a potentially fecund and important theory (even if it remains to be satisfactorily tested enough to bring about near unanimity among scientists)

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By ManoZezez, May 13 at 1:57 am #
(7 comments total)

Re: Reply to ManoZezez Part 1

(...continued from previous comment)

b) Belief in the absence of irrefutable evidence
Some physicists may consider string theory “plausible” despite there being very little empirical evidence in support of it, but considering something plausible is a far cry from believing in it. These same physicists might also regard opposing theories as equally plausible, but remain open minded about which is correct. It’s misleading to equate this with what happens in religion, where doctrine is not merely regarded as plausible, but embraced via leaps of faith that are encouraged as virtuous.
The more general strategy of attempting to present atheism as simply another kind of faith relies on conflating faith with uncertainty. All scientific knowledge is provisional and subject to refinement on the basis of further evidence. In that sense, scientists are never completely certain they’ve found ultimate answers, but what they are doing is siding with whatever the available evidence tells us is the best account available at the present time. In this way, science progresses towards theories that make increasingly accurate predictions. For instance, while Newtonian mechanics predicted observations very well, Einstein’s Relativity superseded it because it predicts them even more accurately.
People like Dawkins and Dennett have repeatedly made it clear that they are technically agnostic in the sense that they don’t believe it’s possible to prove with absolute certainty that there is no god (just as it is impossible to prove anything with absolutely certainty), but they note that this technical agnosticism applies to the existence of all conceivable gods, including ones like Zeus that people have historically believed in and others like the Flying Spaghetti Monster which as yet has no known adherents, but the existence of which is also something we cannot rule out. And the same line of reasoning prohibits us from ruling out with absolute certainty that there’s a teapot orbiting the Sun between the Earth and Mars. We also cannot say for sure that I don’t have a second head that is immaterial and invisible, but which likes to sing songs from the musical Annie (though inaudibly). And on it goes… It’s technically true that we can’t rule out the existence of such things in absolute terms, but this fact is profoundly uninteresting. We all but rule out such possibilities by arguing from the best explanation, which is very different from adopting a position on faith. Historically, there is of course a strong tradition in theology of doing the same thing. Paley’s design argument was an argument of this type. Prior to Darwin, an atheistic account of the apparent design found in living things was incapable of providing what the biblical account of creation provided.

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By ManoZezez, May 13 at 1:57 am #
(7 comments total)

Re: Reply to ManoZezez Part 1

The point about the non-rational source of scientific ideas was made in connection with Kekulé’s dream, but the discussion of string theory centred around the “many physicists” who he says think the theory is “plausible” despite “no scientist [having] ever seen a string.” In both discussions, it’s clear that Hedges was inviting the reader to draw a comparison between beliefs that apparently have some scientific prestige on the one hand and religious beliefs on the other, the basis of the comparison being that they both lack the support of rationality and/or evidence. The strategy, which he uses throughout the article, is to attempt to paint atheists as hypocritically embracing many of the very features they criticise in religion. For instance, Hedges labels the new atheists as “the high priests not of science but the cult of science.” If they are literally ‘priests’ of a ‘cult’, the criticisms they level at (other) religions would have to apply equally to themselves.

So let’s look at whether these comparisons are justified:

a) Belief in the absence of rationality
Scientists engage in non-rational processes all the time, but ‘non-rational’ shouldn’t be confused with ‘irrational.’ Non-rational processes are those that are neither rational nor irrational because they don’t involve drawing conclusions. Some non-rational processes include physical activities like walking that don’t involve thinking at all, but there are also non-rational thought processes like remembering and the creative process of coming up with ideas. Thought processes that involve drawing conclusions will fit into the categories of either ‘rational’ or ‘irrational’ rather than ‘non-rational.’
The important point is that atheism isn’t hostile towards everyday non-rational behavior, but towards irrational behavior (drawing conclusions in an illogical way), which they argue is a property of all religions. Non-rationality and irrationality are easily confused, and doing so would make the argument of an atheist look hypocritical, so although Hedges was careful to use the word ‘non-rational,’ he was inviting a misunderstanding that would work in his favor.

(to be continued...)

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By Inquisitor, May 12 at 1:21 pm #
(19 comments total)

---
3. “Quantum physics demolished the assumption that physical elements are governed by fixed laws.” This is completely untrue.
---

Yes, it’s untrue in that quantum physics continues to expect physical elements to be governed by fixed laws, but the laws fixed by quantum physics are very unsettling ones for those used to fixed laws governing physical elements in the normal way. Quantum laws fixed clouds of probability about where an electron would be, what direction it would be spinning in, etc.  The electron itself could no longer be fixed in space or orientation (though as I recall, David Bohm found a way to do this at the cost of introducing radical non-locality; a heavy intuitive price to pay).  Quantum physics even messed with Einstein’s sense of existential security.

Hedges’ central point about quantum physics is to illustrate that science, while we might employ it with the goal of gaining greater certainty--more reliable prediction and control that is--often points us back to uncertainty, even a deeper sense of uncertainty than we had before we embarked on scientific investigation.

Hedges is not making an argument against science, but rather offering an illustration of how science tends to return us to imagination-stoking mysteries from which some certainty-craving scientists are seeking to escape.  The non-rational will reassert itself, and becoming rigorous empiricists will not offer us refuge from it.

Though Hedges doesn’t mention this, Quantum physics is also an illustration of the potential folly of the memetic model, a folly growing from a religious impulse that Camus called “the nostalgia for unity”.  The nostalgia for unity is a central motivational principle in both religion and theoretical science. Before quantum physics, scientists seeking to unify quantum reality with astronomic reality were motivated to understand the atom as a miniature solar system.  While this perspective was an important intermediate step to a fuller understanding the quantum world, it is one that ultimately had to be discarded.  Memetic theory is likewise a manifestation of the nostalgia for unity--an attempt to understand cultural evolution as closely analogous to biological evolution, so analogous as to be dependent on the idea of selection taking place among faithfully self-replicating units. I suspect this admittedly imagination-stimulating idea of the meme will also need to ultimately be discarded like the solar system model of the atom.  Hopefully it is discarded before it becomes an article of faith among scary fundamentalist personalities who can tell that believing in God is no longer respectable and middle class and so are looking for moral and existential guidance from the post 9-11 atheist movement.  It is these fundamentalist personalities creeping into the atheist camp (and giving it its increasingly monolithic reputation) who are most likely to take memetic ideas and use them to nightmarish purposes like mind control.

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By ManoZezez, May 13 at 2:10 am #
(7 comments total)

Re:

The theory of memes only consists of the claims that ideas can recognisably be transmitted from person to person and that this transmission is imperfect. From that it follows logically that natural selection will occur. As I said earlier, these claims should be completely uncontroversial to anyone who has ever learnt anything from anyone or indeed communicated anything whatsoever. But if you think these claims are untrue, then you shouldn’t be afraid that atheists will “take memetic ideas and use them to nightmarish purposes like mind control.”

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By Inquisitor, May 12 at 1:20 pm #
(19 comments total)

Reply to ManoZezez Part 3

---
4. “Science is often as inexact and intuitive as theology”. The uncertainty principle says that there are physical limits to how accurate measurements can be, but it’s misleading to suggest that something that isn’t perfectly accurate is no better than anything else that isn’t perfectly accurate. Also, coming up with scientific theories is a creative process, but testing them isn’t. The difference between science and faith is about the role of evidence. Like most of us, a scientist believes we’re more likely to find answers when there is some evidence available rather than none.
---

I don’t argue with this point.  I’m not sure Hedges would either.  You might be attacking a straw man.

---
5. “There are forces in the universe that will always lie beyond the capacity of the human mind.” It’s misleading to imply that since we cannot learn everything on the basis of evidence that we might be able to learn just as much or more with none (i.e., by relying on faith).
---

I’m pretty sure Hedges is not arguing that we should all rely on faith, though I imagine he would agree that keeping a space open for faith is not inimical to good science.  If anything, Hedges is arguing that when a kind of fundamentalist spirit sneaks into the community of scientists (which it sometimes does) it has the potential to wreck as much havoc as that spirit does in communities of non-scientists--perhaps even more havoc, since scientists seem to be so much better than non-scientists at making things go boom.

---
6. “The genetic coding ... is fairly precise. But [the memetic] model fails to work...” No one is arguing that memetic replication has to be as precise as genetic replication, only that ideas can be transmitted in a recognisable form from one person to another culturally just as genes can be passed from one generation to the next. If you’ve ever learnt anything from anyone, you have to consider this completely uncontroversial.
---

Watered down to that level it’s uncontroversial, but then you are no longer talking about faithful self-replicating units of mimesis that travel from mind to mind and successfully replicate or dissipate like coils of DNA.  And if you are no longer talking about that, then you are no longer talking about the meme but about more general processes of cultural evolution (e.g. Boyd & Richardson, 1985).  The meme is a very specific idea, and considerably more superorganic and even Durkheimian than other models of cultural evolution that treat the panhuman ecological and psychological landscape as highly determining, less subject to subversion by an independent self-replicating unit.

---
7. “Ideas that prevail are often not the best ideas but more often ideas backed by power… Those who advocate the theory of memes ignore the role of power...” Dawkins doesn’t argue that the ideas that prevail are ‘best’ in any sense other than that they are better at getting themselves copied. Indeed, he argues that the memes that replicate most prolifically don’t necessarily represent true ideas and are not necessarily beneficial to the peopl