Nice to have you on my side for a change! We really do agree on most everything - except on primary candidate and a few tangential issues therefrom. A lot of emotions seem to bubble from this campaign.

Of course, I don’t think I’ve been the least bit hysterical in any of my posts. I’m the very picture of calm and thoughtfulness. Really!

Well, I at least agree with you here tdbach.

How do you manage to be reasonable (like in this post) and reference the reality, and then come up with hysterical accusations like Iran threatening Israel or anybody else?

Very odd.

You miht be suprised to learn that I mostly agree with you on this, CofD.

Cheers,

“I may send you that email, but I’m not sure I have the time or inclination to get into a one-on-one argument. To be honest – and don’t take this as an insult; I’m sure you’re a nice guy – I’m really not very interested in what you have to say, because it’s an old, old song. So I’ll answer here.”

Thanks for your response below Tom.

- Cheers,
Christopher

I may send you that email, but I’m not sure I have the time or inclination to get into a one-on-one argument. To be honest – and don’t take this as an insult; I’m sure you’re a nice guy – I’m really not very interested in what you have to say, because it’s an old, old song. So I’ll answer here.

The phrasing of your response sparkles with loaded words, which you have conveniently put in quotes. Let’s pick these little adornments off and see what’s left.

Most people indeed are ordinary; it’s the very definition of the word. That isn’t to say alike, by any stretch; the gradations are virtually infinite. Nor is it to suggest that ordinary people are incapable of doing something extraordinary - they are just incapable of leading extraordinarily successful lives. That takes sustained extraordinary effort, focus, luck - ambition.

Dreaming big should be encouraged in every child, in everyone so inclined. How else can you really discover what you are capable of? Where the Left parts ways with the right is that we don’t mistake dreams for reality. I don’t think most thinking people on the Right are really as confused on this as they pretend to be either, if you push back a little. They know everyone can’t rise to CEO, but they endorse the dream because, well, because it puffs themselves up ("Look at me and what I’ve accomplished!") and conveniently blames the suffering of those whom the steam-engine of the marketplace has used up, run over, or shoved aside in its relentless quest for profit on the sufferers: they could have been riding in first class if they had only worked harder and believed in themselves!

And now, to fall happily into that old liberal trap, I agree that everyone is special, which is why society needs to treat all its members with dignity, and not insult them by suggesting that the only difference between an out-of-work auto assemblyman and George W. Bush is that Bush works harder and smarter. That really is a fairy tale.

Our system - really any system - simply cannot function with all chiefs and no Indians. An architect doesn’t build a house, a builder does. And a builder can’t build the house alone, either. He needs carpenters and plumbers and electricians. He also needs grunts to carry the lumber up to the roof and move gravel and dirt into place. And when his market dries up, or when he foolishly overestimates the market, he needs to lay off some grunts and maybe some of his tradesmen.

But if he’s a conservative, he doesn’t want to sustain his castaways with unemployment and food stamps until he or a smarter builder needs them. He doesn’t want to spend his hard-earned dollars on taxes to retrain them for work in more stable, prospering markets. That’s their tough luck. If only they had dreamed…

Tom

So—most people are “ordinary,” not really capable of extra-ordinary acts and actions. Is that your basic position?

Dreaming “Big” is really for children—if not outright fools—who are setting themselves up for disappointment.

Not everyone is “special.” Is that your position?  Everyone wants things, great things, but there’s only very few individuals that that can achieve these things. Most will fail. The right just spins this “fairytale” so they can place the blame for failure on the individual, not on the “system” or wider factors. Is that that your position?

I’m genuinely interested in what you think. If you want, please write me at christopher at thechartersofdreams dot com.

Thanks tdbach

This is one of those feel-good stories that true believers latch onto with the ardor of children clutching their favorite stuffed bunny. And with even a casual look you can see it’s made of cotton, not flesh and bones.

Sure, Bob Beamon came from nothing and made something of himself. So did Nikita Khrushchev. It’s not about a magical land of opportunity. It’s about some people just having something special inside them, a super-ambition that overcomes virtually every obstacle. They are the exception, not the rule, in all societies, rich or pore, free market or communist. Yes, our system provides many more opportunities than a closed, totalitarian system. And that’s a good thing. But to suggest that every one of us, if we just would get off our lazy asses can become an Olympic record-breaker -or even a McDonald’s franchise owner- is patently nonsense. It’s the wet dream of the right, the grand rationale for hording what they have earned (or inherited). It confuses equal opportunity for equal possibility, it ignores the reality that we are not created equal and equality of opportunity in LAW is not the same thing as actual equality of opportunity in LIFE. And what really irks me is when people like GWB and William Kristol (and you?) spout this BS, when in fact, if they were born in poverty and raised in the circumscribed world of the ‘hood, they would be one of the vast majority of those people who would never be able to escape. Because they don’t have that very rare something that Beamon had.

In other words, it’s a ruse. And the tip-off is when they say things like “Bob Beamon offers people something the Left never has—he believes.” An inane and vacuous statement if ever there was one. And the proof is this gem: “The Bob Beamon’s of the world have done more good for more people than any radical leftest agenda.” Ok, let’s do the math, shall we, oh great educator? You’ve got one guy on Beamon’s done-good list. For the sake of argument, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt and say there are a hundred more – or let’s really go out on a limb and say a thousand. How many do you think benefited from Affirmative Action? Let’s start counting, beginning with Justice Thomas…

Mr Abdallah, please listen—and learn:

“Bob Beamon didn’t get a lot of encouragement as a child. Raised by his grandmother, his mother died of tuberculosis when he was 11 months old, and he never knew his father. He struggled with doubt, thinking he was unwanted, for many of his early years. In high school, a coach offered a glimmer of hope, saying he had the talent to go to the Olympics if he kept working hard. And he did.

It’s been 40 years since Beamon literally walked on air, obliterating world and Olympic records with a long jump of 29 feet 2½ inches at the Summer Olympics in Mexico City.

Eloquent and thought-provoking, Beamon has become a sought-after public speaker. “I have a few messages, but education is the main thing,” he says. “It’s to get kids to deal with reality. Many of them become involved in drugs or something else, and it’s a dirty world when they get into drugs.”

Beamon compares the situations of stuggling inner-city youths to those in Third World countries, hoping to awaken a sense of appreciativeness and esteem.

“You know, overseas in the little villages of Africa, for example, there is no hope,” he says. “The children are dying of diseases and hunger and they can’t get medicine. Our kids here are throwing away food. We are really blessed over here, and I tell them that. I tell them, ‘I don’t care what color your skin is, what nationality you are or what religion you preach, there is opportunity here.’ ”

A few years ago, at a Manhattan hotel where he was a guest, the hotel’s assistant manager approached him. “Remember me, Mr. Beamon?” the young man asked. Beamon smiled but shook his head. “One day you gave an incredible speech at our school,” the young man told him. “I just followed what you said and tried to make something of myself. I just wanted to thank you for it.”

For Beamon, those experiences are the payoff and motivator behind his success, and the success of those he inspires.”

The Lesson:

The Bob Beamon’s of world will do far far more good than your proposals ever will—because Bob Beamon life is a living testament to the hope and power and promise of America.  Perhaps, Mr. Abdallah, you see yourself and others as helpless victims, destined to be nothing in this world. If so, you do a profound disservice to yourself and those others.  The Bob Beamon’s of the world have done more good for more people than any radical leftest agenda:

‘I don’t care what color your skin is, what nationality you are or what religion you preach, there is opportunity here.’ ”

Bob Beamon is a living proof of the truth of that statement.  Bob Beamon offers people something the Left never has—he believes.

The liberal blogsphere has largely accused HRC of being a Neo-Con, but Neo-Cons generally believe that Iran cannot be rationally deterred and that leaves the U.S. and it’s allies no choice but to launch a pre-emptive war with the goal of regime change.

HRC, instead, is arguing for deterrence, probably because she understands that this neo-con position is the real incentive for Iran to build nuclear weapons.

For a fuller discussion, see

Deterrence Works you Silly Little Liberal Nimrods.

The irony of life:

Prior to the Jewish holocaust there was another caused by jews which directly relates to this nation, America.

http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Walter.White/Who.Br ought.the.Slaves.to.America.htm

Of course, Jeremiah Wright is three quarters white anyway. That does make it rather difficult for him.... and also for others like Carla Coco-Boutte, Disabled Airline worker - see video (scroll down) http://www.workingtv.com/rxexpress.html

I really don’t know how they reconcile this “black” thingy, uhh. Perhaps that’s why they are always complaining? If anyone ever really wakes up to them, its over. Carl is also a fanatical Code Pink volunteer.......

Sadly, though, the big problem now is that the white supremacists have gotten hold of all this and are ready to beat it up into something none of us want to see. It will be a testing time soon for Americans as to whether whites have really learned to assimilate themselves.

As with the Iraq-Iran-Afghanistan issue, the supremacists are also militarists and they love to use terms like “Haji” in a derogatory manner even though they might not know what it means. But then that was the same in Vietnam when “slopes and gooks” were their favorite terms.

Denigrating peopel before attacking them is their game and the psyops and propagandists use them as a tool. Scratch a white person and you’ll most likely find a Nazi. The problem today is that you all fear them as much as they use fear to manipulate others..... and you will not discuss any of it objectively.

Soon it will be too late. Here they are now using truth to their own advantage - “twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools”, uhh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LnE08gAL4c

Part 1 of 2 response to Fadel

This is a great plan Fadel. It has the same components of the Truth and Reconciliation Plans that have actually been successful in other nations devastated by fascism and ethnic struggles resulting in these various Holocausts. 

I’d like to have some hope that it could happen one day, but I don’t know. I’m convinced that the truth part of it..just the acknowledgement of what everyone already knows, would have to come first, if that could be managed at all.

That was one of the most important realizations to come out of the Aspen Institute Conference back in 1988. When “a group of academics, lawyers, clerics, and activists from countries as varied as Uganda, Argentina, South Korea, Chile, South Africa, Brazil, the Philippines, Guatemala and Haiti” gathered there, it was to ‘try to puzzle through one of the most complicated issues facing the polities all over the world, as they tried to move from dictatorial to democratic systems of government --- the question of what to do with the former tortures still in their midst”

Now you might say that’s not what you’re addressing here, but in reality, it’s pretty much the same. There was just what now seems like a brief moment in time, (like just before you joined us 30 years ago) when there was some hope of resolving what has been a history of social and economic injustice founded on racism. That came from those efforts of Martin Luther King, and the hundreds of thousands of people who assisted in that movement. But, it was short lived, and has been in a decline ever since. And what we have now are the equivalent of tortures still in our midst. In fact, they haven’t even been banished from the controlling regime yet, which at least was the case in these other societies that were finally attempting to move from the dictatorial system of government to a democratic system. (The dictators had been removed, but their security and military apparatuses still retained enormous power, and were not about to allow for any ‘settling of accounts’)

Such as it remains here, and overwhelmingly, the very ones (the Corptocracy) that HAVE all the money and power, aren’t about to give up a dime of it. Can you imagine of Murdoch, or any of the others ever even being willing to pay their own fair share of taxes, let alone any sort of reconciliation expenses that might balance things out in our system?

To be contd.

Part 2 of 2 response to Fadel

That’s not to say that it isn’t a wonderful idea, but I think we might have to first settle for just an awareness (by ALL) and the open and formal acknowledgement of what has been perpetrated against these groups for nearly 300 years. That is at least what came from that conference. After much deliberation, it was obvious that the GOALS involved an intertwined demand for Truth AND Justice. In the end, they realized that the truth (and it’s formal acknowledgement) was the more doable of the two, at least for starters.

So maybe that’s what we can and should make a short term goal. This reminds me of a question that came up in the first election debates..the question of reparations for African-Americans. Among all of the candidates, (all democrats) Dennis Kucinich was the only one who supported a system of such cash reparations for African-Americans. (over a century after being promised that 40 acres and a mule). Native Americans of course had agreements and treaties that were long ago violated, and they’ve yet to recover much of anything at all, though a handful of tribes are finally realizing SOME use of the .000000001 fraction land that they were able to salvage.

Obama’s response was probably more realistic, since it involved a matter of FINALLY funding schools and all of the other much needed infrastructure and bureaucracy required to make education and a everything else related to an upgraded standard of living available to those groups that have been historically oppressed, exploited and marginalized. Realistically speaking, that’s far more doable than getting the oppressors to part with enough money to hand out to those who can be so identified as belonging to those groups.

And Fadel, as for Chalmers, I have a feeling that when you say that you usually see eye-to-eye, you’ve missed a huge percentage of his posts. Chalmers is the essence of perfidy personified, and his inappropriate response to your post, (about wanting to run all white people out of America, and the fact that Farrakhan and Wright would love it) speaks directly to his mental dysfunction. Believe me, if you’d followed his stuff, you’d see the bi-polar/schizophrenic nature of it.

So, I wouldn’t expect much in terms of any reasonable response from him, and it would probably save you some grief to disregard him entirely. He’s fine with obliterating Iran anyway. If Hillary says it’s the thing to do, then Chalmers is all for it. If you don’t agree, he’ll accuse you of being racist toward white people.

(As if all white people are ever gonna leave the US. Right…as soon as the moon falls out of the Universe).

Would have to go to Ethiopia to find “semites” unless you want to accept all of the Arab Palestinians, Lebanese, etc etc etc as “Semites” too, bozhidar bob balkas.

But, even then, Ethiopia is only a Greek name and it is not what those people use to refer to themselves. They have their own major tribal groups..... and on and on it goes.

Perhaps that IS where Yahweh is - and maybe always was???

Uhh, Fadel Abdallah, again you have missed the point entirely - by focussing on yourself instead of what I said........

.......after all, what’s wrong with “get rid of white people from America”? Louis Fararkan and Jeremiah Wright would love it, ha ha!

Douglas Chalmers,

I am shocked at your interpreting my post as an “agenda to get rid of white people.” I am shocked because most of the time we see eye-to-eye and we write in support of justice, truth, the oppressed and disadvantaged people and against Zionism, neocons and the military-industrial complex.

I would really appreciate if you can explain to me how and why you read this into my post. Thank you in advance for your time and consideration.

Sounds like an agenda to get rid of white people from America, Fadel Abdallah. As I said, its a pity that the Chinese didn’t take the opportunity 500 or so years ago when Cheng Ho was sailing the Pacific......

My Alternative Plan to Hillary’s Obliterating Iran

First, a publicity campaign comparing the Jewish Holocaust that will never be forgotten with the Afro-American and Native Americans Holocausts that should not be forgotten either. Rev. J. Wright is the most qualified and most eloquent to lead this campaign; he has already started.

Second, a financial plan for reparations should be prepared, with every family of these two victimized groups receiving at least one million dollars, so they can be financially uplifted and they can build businesses and create dignified jobs.

Third, a similar economic uplifting plan for poor Americans, of all backgrounds should be devised and implemented.

Fourth, outlaw all racial and ethnic census and classifications. Just one nation of all nations.

Fifth, all this compensation for both groups should be borne by well-to-do Americans, not as charity, but as an overdue duty, especially the wealthy ones. And the cost of this reparation plan can be easily born by the government at less than one year cost of the Iraqi war. So, it’s doable.

Sixth, two huge memorials should be built to commemorate the victims of the Native Americans and the Afro-Americans.

Seventh, a formal apology by the U.S. Congress and Government should be issued to both these groups.

My sense of justice tells me that this is the minimum that can be done to heal the wounds of the past, and to start this nation on the path of healing and rebirth. Though I do not belong to one of these two victimized groups, nor I am a victimizer, being a recent immigrant myself (30 years), I am willing to accept a special tax to help finance this plan if necessary. However, I think the financial aspect of the project is the least problematic. The problem will remain with creating a noble political and social good will and sincerity to attempt to right great historical wrongs.

Finally, unless and until a plan of this nature will be enacted, with good faith and sincerity, America will continue its downward movement towards destruction; all the signs are already there!

How much of the OT is thus really Khazar history supplanted into the fake state of Israel and re-written? The Khazar fortress at Sarkel, the Ashina clan were considered to be the chosen… and the kaghan was the incarnation of… the sky-god....., etc etc, on and on, blah blah......

We are obviously never going to agree entirely. Zionists - at least a majority of Zionists - have no ambitions of occupying and controlling the greater Middle East. Their aim is a completely safe, stable Jewish homeland, and they will stop at nothing to ensure that. They are advocates of pre-emptive military incursions, and I would agree that the current administration has bought into that philosophy. The reason they have gone in and out of favor among Jews, both in Israel and abroad, is that most Jews agree with the Zionist aim, they just feel alternately appalled at (when they feel peace is attainable through negotiated settlement) and grateful for (when they are under siege from terrorists and explicitly threatened by neighboring states) their methods and resolve. For better or worse, since the formation of the modern Israel under UN/British force, we have committed ourselves to that same aim, of a safe Jewish homeland. What we have failed to do is be as strongly committed to a safe and prosperous Palestinian homeland. ( I personally see only one possible, lasting solution: a dual federacy of Palestinian and Jewish rule over the same territory, with representation based not on geographical entities but ethnic/religious alignment, with Jerusalem as the capital. )

As I’ve said, Palestinian freedom fighters and blowhards like Ahmadinejad do themselves no favor by threatening the very existence of Israel. They only strengthen the Zionists’ hand both internally in Israeli politics and among allies abroad. And to demonize Zionists as more powerful and evil than they really are, as you and many other here do, does the same thing. Zionists need to be made obsolete as a military and political force in the region and relegated to cult status, like the polygamist groups here. But, in my opinion, you are only delaying that prospect. Your mileage may vary.

I believe through their proxies in the media in the U.S. they are the ones enflaming the discourse by making mountains out of molehills via soundbites and the continuous rehashing of meaningless issues.

Douglas Chalmers is correct when he states it is the insanity of the ego. Jessie Carter’s comment about colonized people deluded into subservience is completely on the mark. In fact it is the fury of that delusion that is so perilous. The reason the Middle East’s continuous conflicts are never solved is because the very foundation was built on the rotten brick of robbery. Not only the catastrophe that befell the Palestinians from the formation of Israel, but even further back, when the western colonial powers carved out the land and resources to suit their needs: Great Britain, France, and finally the United States. Such cavalier treatment of other peoples and cultures created conflicts where none had existed before. After what the CIA did to Iran in over throwing their legitimate government back in the early 1950’s, it is not surprising their is animosity towards the United States. But also should be remembered that the hostage crisis of !979 ended with all of the embassy persons safely returned. Adding insult to injury, the United States assisted Saddam when Iraq started a war with Iran. At one point the propaganda was such that the United States attempted to blame Iran for Saddam’s use of poison gas. And no one seems to remember when the US Navy shot down an Iranian passenger airplane.

Hillary is a war-monger at heart. Her voting for the Iraq war is a clear proof of that; her false declared regrets about that not withstanding.

Obliterating a nation of 70 million for the sake of Israel should be reason enough to automatically disqualify her from running for the highest office in this sad country of ours.

But who cares any how?! For after 8 years of war-mongering by the neocons without being challenged in any serious way by the people, one can be justified to say that most Americans are either war-mongers at heart or are willing accomplices through their silence. And if you hope to get elected, then Hillary, the evil opportunist, has to play the winning card of war-mongering! Sad!

Frank, you don’t keep up on international news so much, do you?  The Iranian parliamentary elections happened not long ago, and most of the opposition candidates were disqualified before anyone could even vote for them.

Of course, the same thing happens here, just with more subtlety.  It works out well, our political system gets the end result it’s looking for AND our leaders/media can castigate other countries for their lack of democracy.

And what about Americans holding their leaders accountable...then or now?

Its quite simple, really. You just ahve to want to stop.

The real problem is that people want to continue....... its the insanity of the ego.

Whoopsy, this post was meant as a reply to one of tdbach’s posts below. grrr....

Wildness of my claims? Huh? Israel’s apartheid regime has long plotted the destruction of Iraq and Iran to eliminate obstacles to Israeli expansion. What you are seeing in Palestine is a small taste of what Israel has planned for the rest of the ME. Right now Israel and its powerful US lobby, including Christian Zionists, are howling for our current thug leaders to attack Iran. Big Oil and the MIC aren’t seeking to destroy Iran. Zionists are, and they’ve never denied it. The Zionists are much more dangerous to us than the Iranians. Stop deluding yourself and others.

Sorry Frank. but Ahmadinejad doesn’t quite fulfill your US boogie man test. Grant that he is a dumb misinformed Tehran local, but what you don’t seem to realize that he is not charge of his country. In a theocratic state, the grand council of clerics is in charge. So all of his rhetoric may make you feel it is justified to attack a nation that is not a threat to this country, but this is folly. As far as denying holocausts, I notice that the United States government has cordial relations with Turkey, a nation that has never admitted to the holocaust committed against the Armenian people in 1916.

HRC’s “obliteration” rhetoric could be disregarded as posturing intended to deter Iran from attacking Israel, but her comments seem more sinister in conjunction with her prior endorsements of war crimes against both Iraq and Iran. Why the need to deter Iran? The Iranians, including Ahmadinejad, have never threatened to attack anyone. In contrast, Israel has a large nuclear stockpile and advanced weapons delivery systems, plus every intention of attacking its neighbors, including Iran, in furtherance of its Zionist, expansionist agenda. So if HRC merely wanted to prevent war, she would have threatened to obliterate Israel if it attacked Iran. Her comments and voting record seem less designed to deter war than set the stage for the cold-blooded murder of millions of innocent Iranians.

Actually, Doug, i agree that it is too late for the shell games...which doesn’t mean that they won’t be played.

By the way, have you ever read the theory that The Prince was a satire?  If that is the case, the irony would be as sticky as honey: so much of our politics being based on a spoof.

I don’t defend what Zionists are doing in the occupied territories - or anywhere else in and around Israel. The are indeed racist and ruthless. Hamas has played right into their hands by firing rockets into Jewish communities and committing other acts of terror, creating a sense of fear and anxiety that Likud has used to stay in power.

But they exercise their racist program by encroaching on Palestinian territory and segregating and subjecting palestinians to humiliating limitations on freedom and mobility - all in the name of protecting Israel. It is South African-style aphartide which the added intensity of ongoing conflict. But it is a far cry from ethnic cleansing like they had in Rhuwanda or Bosnia - or even in Bagdad the past 4 years.

We’re closer to agreeing than you think. But I believe we do the Palestinian cause a disservice if we exaggerate the crimes of the ruling party in Israel. It only weakens what should be a strong case. It makes it easy for AIPAC to point to critics of Israel and say, “See how hysterical they are? See the lies they tell about us? We are not only under attack from Arab terrorists, we’re under seige from anti-Semites throughout the world! We need your help!”

I wasn’t saying your an anti-Semite. I’m saying it’s awfully easy to make the case that you are, just by the shear wildness of your claims.

Hey, if you don’t agree with me, Amigo, so be it. But that’s the cautionary tale I’m trying to tell.

“Neither the Japanese then nor the Iranian people now were in a position to hold their leaders accountable”

What a crock of ‘scheer’ BS.  It should read “Neither the Japanese then nor the Iranian people now had the will or courage to hold their leaders accountable”.

Iran has elections which reflect the complicity of the populace. Whether by ballot or by revolution, they could change the regime if they really wanted to.

What Hillary expressed so ineloquently was the US cold war doctrine of deterrence called Mutually Assured Destruction which prevented such a nuclear exchange from ever happening between the US and the USSR. Making it clear to Iran what the consequences of such an attack on Israel would be is just a reiteration of long standing doctrine on nuclear war.

Non-Credo, what Ahmadinejad has said about the holocaust and Israel:

“They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets.”

“We ask the West to remove what they created sixty years ago and if they do not listen to our recommendations, then the Palestinian nation and other nations will eventually do this for them.”

“The real Holocaust is what is happening in Palestine where the Zionists avail themselves of the fairy tale of Holocaust as blackmail and justification for killing children and women and making innocent people homeless.”

“The West claims that more than six million Jews were killed in World War II and to compensate for that they established and support Israel. If it is true that the Jews were killed in Europe, why should Israel be established in the East, in Palestine?”

“If you have burned the Jews, why don’t you give a piece of Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel. Our question is, if you have committed this huge crime, why should the innocent nation of Palestine pay for this crime”

“Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation’s fury.”

“Remove Israel before it is too late and save yourself from the fury of regional nations.”

“The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land. As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map.”

“If the West does not support Israel, this regime will be toppled. As it has lost its raison d’ tre, Israel will be annihilated.”

“Israel is a tyrannical regime that will one day will be destroyed.”

“Israel is a rotten, dried tree that will be annihilated in one storm.”

Not quite, savage jackpine, the point is that it is rather late to play the old game of distraction and deception.

People may “notice recession and food crises a little less if we go off and bomb Iran” but not for long as you we are all already being overtaken by those other imperatives.

The old Machiavellian ways are a path to failure. That has been conclusively so since Hurricane Katrina and the Indian Ocean tsunami. But people still haven’t woken up.......

Soon it could be too late and the next topic will not be about bombing Iran back to the stone age but how we are going to survive the stone age ourselves! The time to choose is NOW

yes...i think.

I think that the point is that people will notice recession and food crises a little less if we go off and bomb Iran.

I’m not sure if when you wrote “you” in your third paragraph if you were referring to me or to my country.  Hopefully it was the latter.  Unfortunately, i’m not one of those who can separate my country’s actions from my own.  I know full well that if the US bombs Iran, the guilt for that lays on my head as well.

You’re spot on about global co-operation, but we won’t see it with the US as the world leader...neither now nor after Jan 2009.  Global co-operation to the US means, “You do what we want you to do and we won’t threaten you militarily.”

And the quandary of the disappearing bees isn’t hardly over; this season could well be far worse than last (especially considering that beekeepers already borrowed millions to replace stock last year)

So we’re in agreement, Doug (i think)

jackpine savage, April 26: “If we wanted to rid the world of nuclear weapons, we might start by decommissioning ours....”

As long as people still think that aggressive posturing is clever and that building nuclear umbrellas or whatever is good for employment, it is impossible to achieve any real or lasting progress never mind peace.

But supporting the military-industrial complex is no kind of answer to the needed solutions for global warming and climate change. Here we are with the economic recession and the food crisis and the GREAT USA FUCKWIT wants to go off and bomb Iran!!!

The writing is on the wall that the wrong kinds of expenditures are leading to disaster. Now you want to add nuclear contamination and mass murder as well??? So too do the unthinking Neocons in France and even still in Britain.......

The quandary of the disappearing bees which left crops unpollinated in America recently will be nothing to what comnes next if this military madness is allowed to continue as the excuse for solutions which really need global CO-OPERATION!!!

No wonder Bill disdained intercourse with Hillary.

They’re both Democrats, and rubbing two dicks together in the dead of night is more a republican kind of thing to do.

Racist supremacist Zionists have had a free ride until now, but enough is enough when they inflame the entire ME with their persecution of Palestinians and drag us into unwinnable wars in Iraq and Iran. Sure, US evangelicals and garden-variety fascists are also to blame, but it’s foolhardy to underestimate the wealth and influence of the Israel lobby in the US Congress. Non Credo, your comment is spot-on because until now, all Zionists had to do to silence their critics was accuse them of being “anti-Semites” (Nazis) or “self-hating Jews.” Westerners’ collective guilt made the ad hominem smear tactics effective. Tdbach just tried it on me, but it won’t work anymore. Zionists are fanatical racist ideologues and should be treated accordingly, regardless of their baggage of Nazi persecution.

What are you lost in this time, Leefeller? Alice in Wonderland, Alice’s Restaurant - or A.L.I.C.E. (Artificial Linguistic Internet Computer Entity)???

The axis of evil IS the coalition of the willing (Neocons), uhh!

You can get anything you want, at Alice’s Restaurant
Excepting Alice
You can get anything you want, at Alice’s Restaurant
Walk right in it’s around the back
Just a half a mile from the railroad track
You can get anything you want, at Alice’s Restaurant

Peace the words of weak wimps, as the Queen of hearts says “off with their heads”

Iran is from what I can tell is a beautiful country with a rich history and a people of all kinds who want to live in peace.  Demonizing a country as Bush did when he listed Iran in his axis of evil speech set the mood for the morons, non thinking simple flag pin folks who would obliterate a county of evil only on the word of a fellow moron.  Like Iraq our country has been meddling in Iran for years, when puppets do not follow orders or direction take action.  Who the hell do these countries think they are dealing with? Wave the flag.  America always knows best.

Hillary voted to take action against Iraq on the made to order list of lies sponsored by one of the greatest hero’s in American History, George Bush.
Why would someone want to talk, talk to an axis of evil?  How naive and simplistic, Obama is, we should just blow them off the map. This country who dumped our appointed puppet government, so you cannot ever talk to them, like Casto, we must make them suffer for they must be under our control our thumb make them do as we want.  Let the axis of evil know who the boss is, in the new world order. 

Just like we did in Iraq, we need to go in and kick ass and take names.  Hillary is showing something I never knew she had, the insane madness of Bush or the great decision making abilities of the Queen of Hearts.  “Off with their heads”

Yes Roger Lafontaine you are correct. Peace is for the people. People could solve their differences without the interference of governments and their hidden agenda. Peace is a living action that is too important to be left in the hands of so-called leaders who still turn to militaristic violence as a solution, when clearly it is not.

Bert, one of the most important things in international affairs and diplomacy is to speak carefully.  Moreover, the field is full of code words.

Everything that Sen Clinton said is already well known.  The Carter Doctrine spelled it out concerning outside nations (aside from us) meddling in the ME.

“Massive Retaliation” is code for nuclear...or at least complete and wanton destruction of civilian targets.  Realistically, we’re fighting a nuclear war in Iraq right now.  Depleted Uranium munitions are nothing but dirty bombs, and we’ve discharged tons of them in Iraq.

A nuclear umbrella is not a “peacekeeping plan”, because it is predicated on fear.  Moreover, it need not be stated because our stock piles (and the fact that we’re the only country to have used a nuclear device) make it self evident.

How many times in modern history has one ME nation invaded another?  Iraq invaded Kuwait, and they paid for it...dearly.  The ME country that is mostly likely to attack/invade another nation is Israel, yet Sen Clinton says that they need protection.

We are certainly worried about Iran’s role as a regional power; we long have been.  It was this situation that led us to support Saddam Hussein (partially) in the first place.  Then we went and removed the counterweight to Iran and now we’re worried that there is no counterweight to Iran.  Did any of these politicians who dreamed up/planned/supported the invasion of Iraq think that far ahead?

I’m sure that Iran would like to have a nuclear device too.  Look at the kid gloves we treat the DPRK with compared to how we treated Iraq.  There is a degree of safety from US bullying in owning a nuke or two.

The larger question becomes how we can reason that it is ok for us and Israel to have them, but not Iran.  Domestically, the argument may wash.  But internationally it does not look like anything other than the United States trying to keep an obscene advantage.

To accept the argument requires believing that the US doesn’t wrong, that it is benevolent.  But we aren’t.  And in the wider world, what gets sold as “peace” and “defense” domestically is known to be no such thing.  For example, the missile defense shield.  That is not a defensive weapon.  By virtue of design and operation, it would be hard pressed to intercept a single device.  It would also be unable to stop a full assault from the Russian arsenal.  But if we were to launch a first strike, it would be able to stop just about everything that came from a reduced, return volley. (assuming that it worked)

Others recognize these types of things while we don’t.  Years of hearing the Department of War called the Department of Defense have clouded our ability to decipher meanings correctly.  The DoD is not structured to protect the United States; it is structured to wage offensive war.  “Peace” is the same as US hegemony.

If we wanted to rid the world of nuclear weapons, we might start by decommissioning ours.

By the way, Obama would not simply meet Iranian leaders face to face.  That is never how diplomacy works.  The legwork is always done by lower levels first.  In some rare circumstances, like the Reykjavik Summit between Reagan and Gorbachev, things happen spontaneously.  The difference is that diplomacy first can result in dialog, while “diplomacy” under the shadow of unveiled threats is nothing more than coercion.

‘ignore’ & ‘nothing’ were poor word choices. In terms of engaging in any type of dialogue (formal or informal) or diplomacy he does nothing. His adminitration just engages in ratching ip the rhetoric.

I do not believe that Iran has nuclear weapons. But I think they want them. And they are doing something with nuclear ,aterilas wheather, as they say, energy, or not. Whether that is a ruse for weapons I am not sure. But the NIE has indicated that even if they had all the material they need it is still at least ten years away. But I do belive they want them.

What do you think a nuclear umbrella is? I did not hear nuclear umbrella. I heard that what Clinton wanted to do was include as many MS countries under the same umbrella as Israel. That is, if anyone attacks them, we would be there to help them. It is apeace keepong plan, not a war mongering plan.

You also write:  “As an aside, why is it ok for Israel to have nuclear weapons but Iran is not allowed?  And if Israel is our “ally”, what do we get from the relationship?”

Those are very hard questions to answer. And I need time to think and formulate answers. I am not a diplomat and have no ready answers for those, except for saying that I believe Israel has a right to exist.

Bush’s Iran policy is “ignore, nothing”?  Now, bert, you’re going way, way too far.  This is the man who’s administration has consistently (and publicly) accused Iran of killing US military personnel in Iraq.  The Kyl-Lieberman designation of a branch of the Iranian military as “terrorist” hardly counts as “nothing”.  Two carrier task forces patrolling around Iranian waters simultaneously is not “ignoring” (in fact, two carrier groups in the same place at the same time is highly unusual).  And we already declared economic war on Iran as of 3/20/08.

Of course, your premise stands well if you (like the Bush administration) ignore the NIE on Iran and it’s nuclear program...i.e. that they don’t really have one.  Gee, that sounds familiar, trumping up a threat that doesn’t exist to provoke a war.

You can’t spin this away, bert.  It was an irresponsible statement.  For one, it goes without saying that if Israel were attacked then we would retaliate with/for them.  Moreover, her statement was not just about Israel.  It clearly implied a nuclear umbrella over the whole region...a region that can be stretched as far East as Pakistan.

This is history repeating itself.  We relied on our nuclear arsenal during the Cold War because we knew that defeating the Soviet Union in a conventional war on their soil would be next to impossible.  Iraq has shown that we are not capable of invading/occupying a Mid-East nation...so we are left with threatening nuclear war.

Furthermore, it will be difficult to engage Iran when we have troops on two of its borders and carrier groups patrolling its waters while our politicians talk about “obliterating” the country.  There is no carrot there...only stick.

She parroted Bush leading up to Iraq, and she’s carrying his water in regards to Iran. 

As an aside, why is it ok for Israel to have nuclear weapons but Iran is not allowed?  And if Israel is our “ally”, what do we get from the relationship?

Um, i don’t know if you’ve noticed, but the Saudis are pretty good friends with the Clintons too.  Bill has spent some of his free time doing consulting in the Gulf, etc.

They are not as close to the Clintons as they are to the Bushes, but Bill and H.W. have gotten to be pretty close over the last seven years.

It’s not that they don’t want Hillary in the Oval Office, it’s more that they’re not all that excited about us dropping nukes in their neighborhood and/or further destabilizing the area.  The Saudis would probably be happier with Clinton than Obama; if nothing else, she is a known quantity.

Not everything is about taking sides in US politics.  And i was never fooled by the talk about the Bush administration.  Your condescending statement belies the high road that you’ve proclaimed for yourself.

“First of all, AIPAC isn’t the richest lobby in the country - by a long shot.”

Actually, I said the Israel lobby, including AIPAC, was the richest. Reread my post. No, I don’t have the dollar figures because they depend on how you define the Israel lobby. It would have been safer if I had said, “one of the richest.” My bad. Humble apologies, etc, etc.

“Bin Laden’s grievance isn’t our support for ‘Zionist ethnic cleansing’ as you say. For one thing, that’s a gross misrepresentation of an already bad situation.”

If I understand you right, you’re saying that “Zionist ethnic cleansing” is a gross misrepresentation of what the Zionists are doing in Palestine. You cannot possibly be so naive, if that’s what you meant.

“[In reference to an Israeli attack on Iran] But if we do indeed give them the green light (and believe me, they won’t do more than a quick air strike without our assurance of backing them)...”

Exactly why should I believe you?

“While you may claim not to be an anti-Semite -hell, you may actually be a Jew- it’s awfully hard not to think anti-Semitism of some fashion is fueling such far-reaching flights of imagination.”

You just couldn’t resist, could you? From behind the thin veneer of rationality, out comes the vicious, de rigor smear when facts fail you. And what far-reaching flights of imagination do you mean, amigo? What the Israel lobby and Zionists are promoting and doing, in the West Bank and Gaza, at US taxpayer expense, is no flight of the imagination. Perhaps you think the Jewish Holocaust is merely a flight of the imagination? I defend the Palestinians in their struggle, just as I would have defended Jews against Nazi persecution. You want to play smear games? Zionists are subjecting the Palestinians to a murderous hell, similar to the Nazi ghettos of WWII. They’re committing war crimes and crimes against humanity, and those who help promote them, or defend them, by either word or deed, make themselves accomplices to those crimes.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

“Conspiratorial nonsense? Yeah, right. Tell that to the Palestinians, amigo. The Israel lobby, including AIPAC, is the richest and most powerful lobby in the country”

First of all, AIPAC isn’t the richest lobby in the country - by a long shot. Pharma, insurance dwarf it. Even the NRA is bigger. That said, it is very influential, primarily because it has so many voters attached to it (unlike corporate lobbies which just have a ton of cash) - or at least they’ve been pretty successful in convincing politician they have the Jewish vote at their beck and call. (They don’t, because a majority of Jews aren’t Zionist, and AIPAC is. But Politicians are a cautious bunch when it comes to risking votes.) Anyway, yes, the Palestinians have born the brunt of AIPAC’s influence, I won’t deny that. But that influence drops off dramatically the further you get from the West Bank.

Bin Laden’s grievance isn’t our support for “Zionist ethnic cleansing” as you say. For one thing, that’s a gross misrepresentation of an already bad situation. Apartheid fits, and that’s bad enough. Don’t oversell your view, it only undermines your credibility. For another, Bin Laden only uses the plight of Palestinians as a recruitment talking point. What did Russia have to do with supporting Israel? But there was Osama, fighting them in Afghanistan. No, his beef is part religious, part Arab nationalist (and part, like Bush, Freudian).

“And when Israel attacks Iran to draw America into another unwinnable war, it won’t be to steal Iran’s oil.” Well, that’s probably true. But if we do indeed give them the green light (and believe me, they won’t do more than a quick air strike without our assurance of backing them) with a wink and a nod, it most assuredly will be because of oil (not necessarily to “steal” it, but to protect our hegemony in that oil-rich region).

You have a grandiose, paranoid sense of AIPAC and Zionists. While you may claim not to be an anti-Semite -hell, you may actually be a Jew- it’s awfully hard not to think anti-Semitism of some fashion is fueling such far-reaching flights of imagination.

Perhaps one day it will be discovered that the homicidally insane Jewish Zionists also had an incurable disease as was postulated with Leefeller’s “the Hatfields vs the McCoys” feuding families - the baccillus itself, uhh (see above)? http://www.dogflu.ca/04062007/08/disease_may_explain_h atfields_vs_mccoy_feud

But it is the USA which is obsessed by fear - and once you take an aggressive posture, one must be forever watchful. That is an anathema to peaceful co-operation. It is the trap which empires always fall into as a result of their own unconscionable actions. They thus endlessly fear that others will then do the same to them!

America hasn’t had a problem with that since 1945. Demented Cold War warrior who wanted to bomb every city in China! http://www.geocities.com/lemaycurtis/