Geez, maybe the pope knows something. Maybe we ought to get off this materialistic, amoral, secular humanism kick and turn the US into a giant catholic cathedral, and start raping female children as a religious rite, to get them pregnant as soon as possible so our population would grow faster and better prepare us for the inevitable coming crusades and inquisitions against the hordes of heathen infidels out there.

And we’ll rape the male children to teach them to trust no one, to hate, and to gird their loins for the hardships they’ll endure as they manipulate the joysticks on the remote video crusade nuclear attack devices and destroy the civilizations of those who dare to doubt the supremacy of the ONE TRUE ‘GOD’, OUR LORD AND SAVIOR.

Ah, jaysus, jaysus, hallelujah jaysus, how we love thee, as you love us, oh holy prince of peace, amen.

If I can further dissect a quote Outraged brought up earlier in this thread. The quote from Dionne was: “He seemed determined to confess the church’s great sin in the sexual abuse scandal, and he asked again and again for forgiveness. He took the extra step Thursday of meeting with a group of victims of abuse.  It was a good and necessary act of penance.”

I for one can not imagine how mentally damaged this group of victims is following first the physical crimes but now what I’m sure was a forced and degrading meet and greet with the man who hid the truth of their injuries. Notice that Benny never confessed his own sin. That would mean the poop is fallible and merely human but we all knew that except perhaps for E.J.  Benny wasn’t the first to hide the sins of the Church but he was perhaps the first to be outed while still breathing. He should have been arrested as soon as his plane landed and received his forgiveness behind bars. Where is Gitmo when we need it?

E.J.,

You’ve been into the sacrificial wine again, haven’t you?

Hook, line and the “stinker” you’ve swallowed them all. I’m certain a priest has bent you over at some point in your life. Or did a nun crack you on the ass with a ruler? The Catholic Church is tumbling from any high ground it ever attained and being an insider myself, I now see it as the mole-hill it always was. The description “an increasingly secular and materialistic culture” is not inaccurate. It is truthful and we should wear it like a “flag pin”. Our secularism and materialism are the reason we’ve shared anything at all with the rest of the world. Religiosity keeps us cloistered like pedophile bishops praying that the world doesn’t find where we are holed up.

For instance, what should we give to the Iraqi people? Mosques? Temples? Churches? No, we should give them infrastructure. Schools, hospitals and power plants. Or at least that’s what we the people would agree to give them. Our government does more carpet bagging than giving. But the useful items the American people can offer the rest of the world are secular and materialistic in nature. The people of the world can choose their own tyrants and write their own fables and fairy tales.

What’s more secular and materialistic than an “old boys club” that hoards wealth, builds cathedrals to invisible friends and tells the employed peoples of the world how they should live? I think someone said it in a previous post, get a job Benny. Then you can experience the joy of giving to the poor from your own sweat. And the reason Benny paid off the victims and squirreled away the pedophiles is that those bastard bishops knew of greater sins the Church had committed and it all would have come out in court. And that’s why the creep didn’t give them up.

Put your catechism and your guilt away E.J., you’re wearing us out.

Oh TDoff, the shrub says that about everybody..it’s in his gut you know..or like when he looks them in the eye (Maliki, Putin) and pronounces them as stand-up kinda fellas.

In this case, he checked with god first, (which he does when he’s not using his gut) and decided that the Pope was ‘straightforward’. Straightforward my ass.

Anyway, the last part made me laugh out loud..side-by-side on the statin and ermine lounges pulling their putzes. Now THAT would be a sight.

(I bet it’s really silk trimmed in satin, with the ermine diamond studded).

Thank ‘god’ the babbling, blathering blitz by the nattering news nabobs on the visit of the pope is over, (except for a day or two of telling us what they told us during his visit).
And isn’t it interesting that our president holds the pope in high regard because ‘he’s so straightforward’.
I imagine this means that as a last Bush boondoggle, later this year, Bush will visit the Vatican so the two of them can compare notes, and admire each other.
If the press really wants to get some newsworthy coverage, they should sneak a camera into the Sacristy in the Vatican dungeon where the vast Catholic porn collection is stored, and film the pope and the president, side-by-side on the satin and ermine lounges, pulling their putzes as they review some ancient XXX tomes.

Excellent as usual Outraged, and I despise the cult tactics, and recognized them immediately here as you did:

•  “Only when their faith permeates every aspect of their lives do Christians become truly open to the transforming power of the Gospel.” AND that “Any tendency to treat religion as a private matter must be resisted,”.

But, the bottom line is that I’ve never seen ANY organized religion as anything other than a method of mass mind control. The Catholic Church is worse than some, and not quite as bad as others. But, this tells it all, and it’s disgusting.

Any tendency to treat religion as a private matter must be resisted? This from the same guy who demonized Islam? The hypocrisy is gagging.

Same with the ‘transforming power” of the Gospel. Unless something has drastically changed, it’s never been “The Gospel” that the Catholic Church has so promoted. Based on my memory, the only time the Catholic Church did all that much with the Bible was for Mass. They do two readings, (I forget from whom) and that’s it. But that is NOT the focus of the Catholic Doctrine..their own personal ‘Catechism’ is, and it has little if anything to do with the Gospel’s that most other Christian denominations use.

And…I too take offense to him coming here in such a tumultuous time. And why should anybody be appreciative of any ‘apologies’ for the DECADES OLD PATTERN of sexual abuse that has been practiced by the pervert priests of primarily the US, this long after the fact? They covered up and protected these abusers for DECADES, and when it was finally EXPOSED, they STILL didn’t acknowledge it, other than by paying off the families and some of the victims. I can only think of ONE of them that was actually prosecuted and sent to prison.

I found it interesting that while the Pope drew 57,000 people to Yankee Stadium for mass in NY The Dalai Lama drew 65,000 in Seattle to hear his message of spreading compassion.  Old world vs new/  authoritarianism vs egalitarianism

http://www.seedsofcompassion.org/

Based on observation of the pope and other world ‘religious’ ‘leaders’, being ‘steadfastly religious’ means basing your life on faith on fables and fantasy, and ignoring reality. And never passing an opportunity to:
1. Be hypocritical
2. Lie and deny
3. Consort with prostitutes
4. Partake of the ‘evil’ of drugs
5. Sexually assault the children in your care
6. Maximize your profit, no matter the means
7. Steal from the poor, it’s easier
8. Kiss ass of the wealthy and powerful, that ye may become one
9. Promote wars against the ‘Infidels’ (those of other religions)
10.Insist that your ‘god’ is the ‘one’ god,
that your ‘religion’ is the ‘one’ religion, that you have the ear of the ‘one’ ‘god’
11.Practice a look of piety, to avoid arrest

If you can stomach the above, and all other perversities of the various ‘churches’, you can become known as ‘steadfastly religious’, and a ‘godly’ person.

Based on observation of the pope and other world religious leaders, ‘steadfastly religious’ must mean:
1. Keep the faith, and base your life on fables and fantasies, not reality.
2. Let no opportunity pass to:
  a. Be hypocritical,
  b. Lie and deny, in ‘god’s’ name,
  c. Consort with prostitutes,
  d. Partake of the ‘evil’ of drugs,
  e. Have carnal knowledge of the children in your care,
  f. Maximize your profit, no matter the means,
  g. Promote and sponsor wars against the ‘infidels’ (those of different ‘religions’),
  h. Insist that there is only one ‘true’ god (yours), among the many,
  i. Kiss ass among the wealthy and powerful, so that ye may join them,
  j. Steal from the poor, for they have not the ability to resist,
  k. Practice the appearance of piety, to avoid arrest.

If you can learn to stomach all the above, ye shall be known as ‘steadfastly religious’, and ‘a godly person’.

Well, if you’re going to ‘cherry pick’ qualities, even I can find something nice to say about the pope.

For example, I’ve heard he has no sh*t streaks on his drawers, because Bernie Law, his ‘special assistant’ in the Vatican, the ex-Cardinal of Boston, best known for his strenuous, successful efforts to protect the myriad of pedophilic (read: child-raping) priests in his diocese, uses wet wipe on the pope’s ass after each defecation. And the pope defecates a LOT!

He’d say, “Kill them all, my father will sort them out.”

“Kill them all, let God sort them out.” was originally said by a Catholic bishop during the Albigensian Crusade in France. (against the Cathars, who were Christians) The Church forces were about to sack a town that was mixed, and the knights were somewhat leary of killing Catholics in the town.  The bishop soothed their conscience with that quote.  The actual, original quote was “Kill them all, God will know His own.”

Re: TheDebater

Your comment:  “Yet, I am not offended by the pope’s message to be steadfastly religious, not just when it is convenient.’

Since “steadfastly religious” is a generic term, I’m confused as to your meaning.  What do you consider or mean by, “steadfastly religious”?

While I understand that the pope’s words seem frightening to some religious people and downright deceptive to nonreligious people, his words simply reflect the idea that is contradictory to the concept of “cafeteria” catholic/christian. To be a christian “completely” and to follow all of the teachings and not pick and choose what’s right for you seems to be what he is advocating. I myself was raised by parents who were in every way (spiritually, politically, etc) Christian and I can’t say I have followed in their footsteps, but rather I have chosen to be “Christian” in some aspects and not in others. Yet, I am not offended by the pope’s message to be steadfastly religious, not just when it is convenient. In all honesty it is a message that many, including myself, would benefit from hearing.

There’s a far more dangerous kind of fundamentalism coming from the west - fundamentalist capitalism. As history has shown over and over, there’s absolutely nothing that we will allow to get in the way of profit.

There’s a far more dangerous kind of fundamental coming from the west - fundamentalists capitalism. As history has shown over and over, there’s nothing that we will allow to get in the way of commerce.

“Christian” School founder caught soliciting sex in exchange for the daughter’s enrollment fee to a parent in Houston.  Par for the course.

“His name is LaVern Jordan and he runs Parkway Christian School.”

>What a sleeze… check it out:
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/13_undercover&id=6085999

Before we frivolously enter another pre-emptive war, perhaps we should contact the pope to get his opinion on ‘Who Would Jesus Kill’?

^ you address.  I think we are witnessing a revival of fundamentalism in both Christianity and Islam.  Fundamentalist Christianity is far more dangerous because Christians control the most powerful military (can you say nuclear) weapons in the world.  This fanaticism is the very thing that can and may launch us into “World War the End”.  My feeling is that if this madness doesn’t stop with the next administration, we will blow ourselves back to the Stone Age; you know, on second thought, maybe that’s not a bad idea.  At least the planet could begin to heal itself.

^ that was the condition set out for my parents in order that they could be married in “the Church”.  But then; that was before I knew better.

The pope’s comments show the extent to which “THE CHURCH” will go to MAINTAIN POWER over individuals.  Cults use this tactic all the time.  I give special attention to the fact that he says, “Only when their faith permeates every aspect of their lives do Christians become truly open to the transforming power of the Gospel.” AND that “Any tendency to treat religion as a private matter must be resisted,”.

Let’s see where this would take a person.  “Their faith” here, is the Catholic religion not “belief in God”.  If it were the belief in God, obviously IT COULD be treated as a private matter.  So when the pope says “their faith” he is using the old bait and switch technique or a simple play on words.  The Catholic church is not alone in this tactic.

He states; only when “their faith” permeates EVERY ASPECT OF THEIR LIVES then it will be “transforming”.  Boy, I’ll bet.  The reality here is, according to the pope, only when “THE CATHOLIC RELIGION” permeates every aspect of YOUR life, it is ONLY THEN that “Christians” read Catholics, become TRULY OPEN to the transforming power of the “Gospel”.  (Gospel here ALSO means the Catholic religion and is another bait and switch tactic.)  You don’t think the pope is endorsing anything else do you?  All Christian religions endorse “the Gospel”.  And all religions claim to have a direct feed to God to acquire the accurate INTERPRETATION of “the Gospel”. But in this instance, it’s the Catholic religion.

The pope admonishes that, one cannot practice “their faith” in private, (remember, that “MUST BE” “resisted”)  so where would one go if “one’s faith” was the Catholic faith then.  Why, to “the church” of course.

In effect, the pope is saying let “THE CHURCH” permeate EVERY ASPECT your life because ONLY THEN you will be TRULY OPEN to what THE CHURCH wants to do with your life!  And you must RESIST having “your faith in God” in private. Come to us, because if you don’t, how will we be able to carry out OUR agenda?  Of course he rosy’d that up with all sorts of niceties such as; love, caring, and dare I say.. affection?  (Sure..that’s it, all child molesters “have affection for the child”)

I take exception to the pope coming at a time when America is in turmoil.  Cults use this same tactic as do unscrupulous “admirers”.  The ol’ catch them on the rebound trick.  Befriend them, make them think they can trust you.  Odds are.. right now they probably need a friend.  Someone who knows “what they should do”.  Someone to “direct them”.  The pandering is so blatant that “the church” who has COVERED UP THEIR CRIMES OF PEDOPHILIA FOR DECADES AND PROTECTED THE PERPETRATORS, is so hard up they figured they’d make “some sort” of apology!  A tad insincere, to state the obvious.

Your comment EJ: “He seemed determined to confess the church’s great sin in the sexual abuse scandal, and he asked again and again for forgiveness. He took the extra step Thursday of meeting with a group of victims of abuse.  It was a good and necessary act of penance.”

>Now you’re pandering EJ.  Your choice of words is so… how can I say it…. spiritually directed…?  “determined”, “confess”, “great sin”, “again and again for forgiveness”, “extra step”, “a good and necessary”, and of course the almighty…, “act of penance”.

Everyone of these is a trigger word meant to “touch the heart” of “believers” everywhere.  Disgusting. This is how you depict the organizational head of the group that committed these atrocities, who then protected the perpetrators and covered up the crimes for decades?! Who denied, lied and paid off the families of the victims. THESE WERE CRIMES AGAINST CHILDREN.  In some states here in America you can get the death sentence for them. Shameful. Blatant and Shameful.

“Great sin?”....“the church’s great sin?!”.... You make it sound just shy of angelic.  I can almost hear the angels singing. That’s sick.

Quote: “Any tendency to treat religion as a private matter must be resisted,” he told the country’s Catholic bishops Wednesday. “Only when their faith permeates every aspect of their lives…”

This is true - but does it apply to a religious and philosophical message - or to his already known Neocon agenda?

all of that was subversive, back in the day. those hippies mostly got haircuts, bought SUV’s and 6,000 square foot houses,started hedge funds. we used to call them sellouts. they ARE sellouts. they’re no more subversive now than your faithful roman catholic. they just may not go to church because that would be another demand on them. there’s a lawn to be cut. or a lake house that needs a new addition.

Let me ask you, Patsy6, are you ‘intolerant’ of willful ignorance? Stupidity? Criminality? Greed and avarice? Mendacity?
Those are the qualities of organized religions that makes rational folks shun them. That is not being ‘intolerant’, that is using the intelligence nature provided us.

The only discomforting aspect of the Pope is that some very undiscriminating people pay attention to him, at least enough to be discomforted.
Why?
He is a hypocrite, a pompous, pious, pusillanimous politician, whose whole life is based on a figment, a fable He also is CEO of an empire that has garnered extreme wealth by frightening poor, uneducated people all over the world, people who subsist of a few pesos, or zlotys, or whatever, each day, and demanding a 10% tax from them to ‘protect’ them from fantasy demons, and promise them a sugar-candy eternity, once they are finished with hell-on-earth.
His empire’s list of sponsored atrocities is much too long to list here, but he better hope and pray there is no just ‘god’, for if there is, he is doomed to a bubbling, boiling, excruciating eternity.

You’ve got two thousand years of Catholicism, year two being worse than year one, year two hundred worse than one hundred and two thousand worse than one thousand.

People are really bad.  You look at two thousand years of social deterioration in spite of two thousand years of moral and spiritual education by THE CHURCH and what does it tell you? 

John Paul’s dead, Benedict soon to follow.  They’ll never see the worst.  But they can both go to their graves thinking to themselves as the shadow of the lid crosses their eyes, at least I got to ride in the Popemobil. 

Let’s try something new, like put churches out of business and teach kids not to behave like their parents or their leaders.

I’m repeating myself but what the hell.  When Ratzinger was elevated to Pope my Catholic friends and I said well thank the heavens he’s old.  We also agreed that had he been living at the onset of the Renaissance, he would have been against it.

As a lifelong Roman Catholic and as an American, I find a lot things about Benedict XVI discomforting, as I did about his predecessor, John Paul II. That having been said, I agree with him on many things, including his stand against the Iraq war and occupation, his opposition to the death penalty, and his belief that evolution is not conflict with church teaching.  I guess I’m what you might call a “cafeteria” Catholic. Expat, if you have ever had any serious discussions with Catholics about their beliefs, which I doubt due to your obviously intense hatred of the Catholic church and, indeed, all Christian faiths, you would see that the modern day Catholic church is not a cult. Cult members never question their leaders. I would venture to say that 99% of today’s practicing Catholics often question their leaders and certain aspects of church teaching.  We stay because our belief in the core teachings of our church are strong, i.e. our belief that the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ. 

I would venture to say that most of Truthdig’s readers consider ourselves to be tolerant people.  Yet I know a lot of liberals (and I’m proud to call myself a liberal) who are extremely intolerant of organized religion in general, and the Catholic church in particular, yet they will be first ones to accuse Christians of being intolerant.  Physicians, heal thyselves.

Expat,

Your excellent comment reviews the church’s beginnings as an expressly political force.

Although catholicism’s power is in decline at the moment, one cannot deny it’s nearly unbridled success spanning more than a millennium. Although I sympathize with your remarks, those very criticisms may validate the Darwinian advantage of the church, and religion in general. I have suspected for some time that Richard Dawkins may be wrong in his assertion that religion has little evolutionary value. Considered primitive and fanatical by Roman society, the christians nonetheless eventually prevailed because persecution only increased their sense of group identity and tribal cohesion. Historically, one could make a loose comparison between early christianity’s relationship to the then-dominant Roman culture, and Islam to our current one. If Dawkins is wrong and religion turns out to be a primary social evolutionary force, we should all be very concerned about a new dark age…

For some reason what an EX Nazi who tried to cover up the pedophile scandal in the US.Who gave Cardinal Law a prestigeious job in the Vatican is somehow given some credence in anything he says.He is only here because in Europe when he speaks people change the channel.EJ you are not in grade school anymore and I promise you if you say something critical of the Pope the Nuns will not beat you on the knuckles.The Pope is as relevant as the head of any other organized crime ring.Yes EJ pedophilia is a crime and was condoned from the top down for over fifty years.What you put great credence in is NAMBLA in a dress.

Seems as if you’re one of those wayward American Catholics who thinks for himself, E.J. Tsk, tsk.

Personally, though I’m sure he’s a lovely man, I think Benedict is irrelevant. He made his position clear long ago that only the Catholic religion is the One True Faith, and while I’ve not followed his U.S. visit very closely I hear him saying that America would do better as a Catholic theocracy than as the bold democratic and, yes, secular, experiment it is now. In my understanding of “secular” there is nothing that leaves out a healthy spiritual component. It just wouldn’t be an organized, top-down religious catechism prepared for me by a cabal of celibate pretenders to an invisible God.

I do agree with Benedict, however, that we are in a kind of spiritual crisis, mostly because of run-away laissez-faire capitalism and shrunken spiritual values among most people, Christian or othewise, but I don’t think the answer, for me at any rate, is in the Holy Roman Empire, however reconstituted, and certainly not under a pontiff whose exclusionism is well documented under his former name of Rat-zinger.

Am I missing something?

^ hahahahahahahaha!  Like minds think likewise.  Thanks for your kind and relevant words.

Best post on this thread.

Great comments from each and every one of you…(so far) You all make me proud, and grateful to be among you.

For YOU are the ‘enlightened’ ones.

I say this as a twin to purple girl…a long time recovered Catholic. John Paul was for the most part, OK with me. I think he pretty much had it right.

Still, the larger picture of history (that Jackpine Savage reminds us) has no reason to endear me to the Catholic or any other organized religion, since they all have, (at least for the most part) accomplished far more harm than good.

...I’m glad I’m a Protestant—-and a non-denominational Protestant at that.

I want to say, “Amen”, but that seems like the wrong word choice here.  None-the-less, yours is an excellent analysis of early church history and its profound effect on the world which we live in, Expat.

I would note that Paul was an upper-crust Roman who saw something worth selling to the bitter masses of the Empire who needed something to cling to.  Dispute between Jesus’s family/fellow sect members and Paul were immediate and bitter.  Constantine welded the power of the Church to the power of the State for personal gain (hence his infatuation with the true cross as a talisman of power).

All other strains, outside of the Nicean Creed, of Christianity have been thoroughly repressed by the Church.  It is true of Eastern and Western Christendom, though the East retained some traits of earlier Christian thought.  For example, the concept of “Sophia” (Wisdom, and a feminine noun in Greek), who was above “God” (the male rule giver).

...Catholicism has been enriched by its encounter with enlightenment thought…

Yes, but only after it slaughtered the Cathars of Southern France and ended the first enlightenment outright.  Only after it burned the library of Alexandria and destroyed the texts of ancient enlightenment.  And only after being dragged, kicking and screaming into some form of modernity.  But it did not take enlightenment thought to heart in any way, shape, or form.  Rather it removed the magical, mysterious aspect of Catholicism (its strongest positive) in hopes of looking more modern and enlightened.

Religion functions on two planes, the spiritual and the temporal.  The spiritual is basically a personal matter.  The temporal is about power.  Throughout history, from its founding day, the Catholic Church (and most every other Church) has focused on building temporal power.  This is why priests (the temporal) communicate with lay practitioners, and monks (the spiritual)get locked up in monasteries.  If lay Christians acted like monks, they wouldn’t need the Church.  They would develop their own link to spirituality rather than needing the Church’s religiosity as a go between to “God”.

^ discomforting.
And so the cult of Catholicism retains its air of legitimacy still:  At least in the view of the Pope.  I say cult because until recently Catholics were discouraged from reading the Bible; the Catholic Church had it’s own Ecumenical’s which were the official doctrine to be followed by it’s followers.  In other words the church rewrote the bible to further their own doctrine for their own agenda. 
Politically (and sometimes physically) battled out at the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E.; Arius was a proponent of monotheism, while the prevailing view was that of polytheism because it was more attractive to the “pagans” of the time, who believed in polytheism: Conversions would thus be so much easier.  Arius lost and Christians were forever doomed to follow meaningless politics and dogma.  Just read the Nicene Creed for the most obtuse, obfuscatory I have ever read and it’s the justification of the Trinity.  Thus Monotheism died at the hands of the Trinitarians. 
Why should non-Christians care?  All humans should care because 99% of Christian religions are not “inspired of god” but the creation of politically motivated charlatans looking for power and riches.  And then there is history; the Catholics should be especially proud.  The destruction of knowledge by “The Church”, by some estimates, has put us back 400 years from where we could have been.  Remember “the world is flat”; a Greek knew the world was round in 800B.C. and he knew it’s circumference correctly!  Religion is ruling all of us in the most diabolical ways and guiding decisions about war and economics and foreign policy as we speak.  As this article regards the Pope, I’ll limit it to that.  From the least to the most; religion is all about power:  And so it goes and goes and goes and………..

I liked John Paul- though still held the views of this Hierarchial (Heretical) Organization I first realized at 9. No I was not one of their victims of Abuse- but even then questioned the valididty of a religion that attempted to subjegate it’s followers. The Older I got , the more education into History- the more I realized my young impression was correct.
I could only manage of few minutes of his Speech (sermon?Please) And heard him ask the masses to “love your priests”, and Heard no ‘asking for forgiveness’ to who the vile men who abused the children - or th eOrganization that Hide It throughout History? How can I consider a religion ‘Divine’ with the history such as this one and it’s continued message of Inequality and Judgement regarding ‘Creations’ by it’s Own Proclaimed ‘creator’?
Benny like all the rest is only concerned about the Vatican and the power (validity) it has through the following of the masses.
This Pope is reconfirming my long held belief they are nothing more that the Original Horseman to the Apocalypse of Mankind- The Right Hand of the Beast!

So he says he’s for academic freedom as long as it doesn’t undermine, contradict church doctrine. So much for critical thinking in an age when we need all the critical thinking we can muster to deal with the issues we have to solve if we are to have any possibility of survival let alone a positive legacy.