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Reports

The Clinton Backlash

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Posted on Mar 31, 2008

By E.J. Dionne

WASHINGTON—Chill out.

More specifically: “We’re going to win this election if we just chill out and let everybody have their say.”

Thus, Bill Clinton’s advice to Democrats who are gnashing their collective teeth over whether the extended struggle between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama will cause their party to lose an election it once seemed certain to win.

One person who took Clinton’s advice was Obama, who went out of his way last weekend to defend his opponent’s right to stay in the contest. That was a shrewd move since the Clinton campaign is gifted at turning any effort to push her out into (1) a form of sexism, (2) a fiendish plot against her by Washington “insiders” and (3) a way of raising lots of money online.

In any event, the argument about ending the race now is miscast. Even a miraculous intervention by Al Gore and John Edwards would do little to settle the matter. St. Al and St. John are powerless as long as Clinton and Obama want to keep their battle alive. Only one thing will end this brawl, and that is the self-interest of one of the candidates.

For now, Clinton has a strong argument for continuing. Obama leads in delegates but that advantage is not overwhelming. Clinton still has a chance—a pretty good one, according to an analysis posted by Michael Barone on U.S. News & World Report’s Web site—of emerging from the primaries with a lead in the popular vote, though it seems impossible for her to overtake Obama in the delegate count. Clinton’s campaign song has become “Don’t Stop Thinking About the Next Primary.”

For the long run, it is neither sexism nor insiderism to say that unless she sweeps the next contest in Pennsylvania and also primaries in other places such as Indiana and North Carolina, the decision to end the race by dropping out will fall upon Clinton.

But there is a more immediate decision for her to make: As long as she is in the race, how will Clinton choose to win? The Clinton campaign needs to examine not what this fight has done to Obama, but what it is doing to her.

For all Democrats, the worst thing that has happened since January is the tarnishing of the Clinton brand. Clinton haters: Don’t laugh. The truth is that when this whole thing began, the vast majority of Democrats—including Obama supporters—and a fair number of independents had largely positive views of Bill Clinton’s record and Hillary Clinton’s merits.

In light of today’s economic crisis, most Americans look back fondly on the rapid and widely shared growth of the 1990s. What neoconservatives see as a “holiday from history” in foreign policy, most Americans see as a time of peace when the United States was respected in the world, and even rather liked. 

And while Bill Clinton’s triangulation (and his scandal) did damage to the Democratic Party, Obama himself has acknowledged that President Clinton was right to pull the party back from “the excesses of the ’60s.” Bill Clinton, Obama told me in an interview last fall, “deserves some credit for breaking with some of those dogmas in the Democratic Party.”

As for Hillary Clinton, nobody doubts her intelligence. Those who know her reject the media-built image of Clinton as a cold, calculating machine. Such a person would not inspire the loyalty she has earned from her partisans. If Obama does win, he will draw on her policies, some of which are better crafted than his own.

Yet much of this has been lost. Bill Clinton’s approach to the South Carolina primary, the Clinton campaign’s effort to ignore everything it once said about the irrelevance of the Florida and Michigan primaries, Hillary Clinton’s willingness to say (or imply) that John McCain is more prepared to be president than Obama—all this and more has created a ferocious backlash against the Clintons. The result is that when the word Clinton crosses their lips, many Democrats sound like Ken Starr, Bob Barr and the late Henry Hyde.

“Chill out” is good advice. Hillary Clinton has every right to keep fighting. But her campaign has suffered from a ricochet effect. Attacks aimed at her opponent and efforts to exaggerate her experience have weakened rather than strengthened her claim to the nomination.

This is obviously a problem for Hillary Clinton herself, but it is also very bad for a Democratic Party that cannot afford to see the entire Clinton legacy discredited.

E.J. Dionne’s e-mail address is postchat(at)aol.com.

© 2008, Washington Post Writers Group

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By Conservative Yankee, April 6 at 4:37 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

caucusdebacle

“You have to go to the town clerk and verify that you are unable to attend—leaving out again the people who can’t go out. I am not aware that any other caucus state allows an absentee ballot procurable simply by mail.”

Nope, wrong again...Two things Going to the town clerk or having the town deliver the absentee is EXACTLY the way ballots are obtained for a general election here.  There is no longer a requirement in Maine that a “reason” must be given for the procurement of an absentee ballot.  All one must do is request one.

The campaigns of both Token, and the Business shill were on the phone all day offering to bring these ballots to the house. When the ballots are obtained by someone other than the voter, a notary or dedimus justice must authenticate signatures, but most campaign workers have these credentials BUT if you can not make it to the polls,Dedimus can be found at at: maine.gov/sos/cec/notary/dedimus.html OR by contacting your county commissioners. The person will come to the house for election documents FREE OF ANY CHARGE!!!

Voting is a serious business in northern New England.

....and over the line in New Hampshire where the business-shill won, the number of absentee ballots would not have changed the election one iota. The percentage of absentee ballots cast for the business shill, were (within the point spread) close enough to not have made a difference.  Since age is not recorded on the ballots, not collected by the election commission, no one is sure what of the age of the average absentee ballot user.

In my circle of friends (admittedly not a scientific sample) NO older woman expressed a preference for the business shill. Only one was voting for Token.. The great majority (Xtian and conservative) voted Republican!

Oh, one more thing.. There is no requirement (except handicapped access)in Maine that caucuses be held in any particular buildings. They are OFTEN held in senior centers, Legion Halls, and Nursing homes.

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By caucusdebacle, April 6 at 1:13 am #
(5 comments total)

update on The Will of (Only the Healthy)

The reason I know about the 15% of disappeared Hillary voters in Caucus States is that I made 2400 volunteer phone calls and this was the number of older women for Hillary whose dread of falling kept them at home instead of at a caucus. It’s not official polling but a pretty fair sample. I had no idea of the extent of this fear of falling until I now bring it up and everyone says ‘Oh yeah, my mother/grandmother never goes out in the winter.’

My percentage was ratified by Texas—Hillary’s voters were plus 4 in the primary and minus 12 in the caucus on the same day. A 16% swing! Suppose we had only seen the caucus results in Texas? Well, that’s what happened in Iowa etc. 

There were many other people disenfranchised by the appalling caucus system, but they seemed to be a push among the candidates.

Maine does allow an absentee ballot but according to David, a convener or chairman of a caucus in Maine, it is not the standard procedure you’d use to get an absentee ballot in a regular election. You have to go to the town clerk and verify that you are unable to attend—leaving out again the people who can’t go out. I am not aware that any other caucus state allows an absentee ballot procurable simply by mail.

As it happens, if the situation were reversed &, say, 15% of black voters for Mr. Obama were arbitrarily prevented from participating, I would be equally outraged at a system which pretended to be about “the will of the people.” The will of which people. The will of (healthy) people? “Just because I’m sick doesn’t mean I can’t think!”

Since JFK was murdered on my 19th birthday, one person one vote has been precious to me. I just think it’s wicked to pretend that the results of pledged delegates and popular vote from the caucus states aren’t hideously skewed. That’s exactly the kind of ghastly injustice the non-lemming superdelgatesare supposed to think about.

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By Conservative Yankee, April 5 at 5:50 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

By Joe in Maine, April 4 at 5:38 pm #

“"Re: Another vicious Clinton Lie

You are correct sir! Your 90-year old grandmother was allowed to vote absentee in the Maine caucaus. Did you stick around to watch, or did you drop and run? The caucus in our little neck of the pine forest waited until the end to count them. When Obama had a slight lead the Obama captain, acting as caucaus chairman, asked for a show of hands to decide if the absentee ballots should be counted. She was sure to remind everyone that people who vote absentee favor Hillary. The vote to open the absentee ballots was denied to my horror."”

No Joe, I always stay for the Caucus, AND if I had been present at your caucus I would have immediately contacted the Maine Ethics commission, <www.maine.gov/ethics> The Bangor Daily News,<www.letters@bangordailynews.net> The Portland Press Herald, and The both the Token,<my.barackobama.com> & Hill-the-business-shill campaigns <www.hillaryclinton.com> and the super delegates (John Baldacci, Mike Michaud, Tom Allen, John Knutson, Sam Spencer Marianne Stevens Sam Spencer and Jennifer DeChant.) all to be found at <www.maine.gov>

To fail to count ALL votes is a criminal offense, as well as being unethical. What was done with the sealed ballots?  It is illegal to dispose of active ballots in an improper manner. Who chaired your Caucus? Anyone who condones voter fraud is guilty of a class II Felony, and subject to a prison term.

IF you have your facts in order (better than your post which refers to my “Grandmother” who has been dead for 55 years, and therefore intelligible to vote...even in your town) Why not make them available to folks who can make a difference, instead of posting worthless criticisms here?

There you go, I’ve done the work for you.. all you have to do is write a letter copy it to all, and submit a list of witnesses. As you know a real Mainer isn’t afraid of a fight in defense of old people! You’re It… I’ll be watching the papers!!!

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By Lee, April 4 at 1:43 pm #
(118 comments total)

Cinton Bashing ...

Re: Lefeller

Hey Lefeller ...

I see you took some time away from your racism/obsession
... white racism that is ... to say that the
war has been placed on the back burner ... and, that
Hillary is a war monger!!! Well, genius, check out what
hit the news today:

Obama Adviser Suggests Up to 80,000 Troops Remain in Iraq By 2010

It seems your Hero is a war monger too!  tee hee ...

Reply to this | Hide 2 replies | Report this

By Conservative Yankee, April 6 at 5:12 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

(sic)Cinton Bashing ... and the death of the

By Lee, April 4 at 1:43 pm

“It seems your Hero is a war monger too!  tee hee ...”

Absolutely correct. They are both “warmongers” as is Bush, Bill Clinton, G.H.W. Bush, Reagan… etc. 

During my mother’s lifetime we fought:
1914-17—Mexico.
1915-34—Haiti
1916-24—Dominican Republic
1916—China
1917—China
1917-18: World War I
1917-22—Cuba
1918-19—Mexico
1918-20—Panama
1918-20—Soviet Union
1919—Dalmatia
1919—Turkey
1919—Honduras
1920—China
1920—Guatemala
1920-22—Russia (Siberia).
1921—Panama - Costa Rica
1922—Turkey
1922-23—China
1924—Honduras
1924—China
1925—China
1925—Honduras
1925—Panama
1926-33—Nicaragua
1926—China

To be continued

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By Leefeller, April 4 at 5:51 pm #
(1233 comments total)

Clinton the fuzzy cuddly truth

Of course the military complex made sure Gravel was out of the race.  So guess we can go back to racism, but you may have to attend you KKK meeting, so catch you next time.

Look, I have said it before our choices are selected for us by the elite, the wealthy people of power, they must protect their interests and increase them.  We live in a Plutocracy. It was planed that way by our founding fathers.

I prefer Obama to Hillary, only because I cannot stand seeing anymore of the Clinton’s,

Anyway, Le thanks for noticing, guess I will have to go back to Kucinich or do like George Carlin and stay home on election day.

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By Leefeller, April 4 at 5:07 am #
(1233 comments total)

Ignore the war, good for Clinton

Do not know about some of you, (actually I do) but I believe having the Clinton’s in the Whitehouse would make little difference from Bush, especially for the war, she seems quite the war monger to me.

Sadly the war has been placed on the back burner of politics, and seems to be staying there.

This classic blunder of imperialistic pomposity is what drives this bus, while we the people are forced to sit in the back seats with blinders on, the sad thing is it may seems to be by choice for some of the people, seems most people do not want to see, hear or speak of blunt truths.

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By cyrena, April 5 at 12:31 am #
(4172 comments total)

Re: Ignore the war, good for Clinton

Leefeller,

Leefeller,
On the ‘war on the backburner’ concept, I understand that it certainly seems that way. We are of course too manipulated by the mainstream media, and so what they fail to cover, seems to indicate that it’s been forgotten.
BUT…I came across an excellent piece from Zbig Brzezinski the other day. (and I’ve since posted it on a couple of threads. You may remember him as National Security Advisor to Jimmy Carter, and I’m more familiar with him as a scholar on foreign policy, and particularly as a realist and a pragmatist. He is ONE of the current foreign policy advisors to Barack Obama, and I’ve tried to follow his thinking in the past few months.
The article (and I’ve posted the beginning with a link to the rest below) is pretty much in keeping with what I’ve sort of ‘pondered’ for the past year or better, in reference to what Obama can or cannot do, in respect to bringing about the closure of this most horrific disaster that is the war on, and occupation of Iraq. What we DO know, is that he is obviously limited in what he can do NOW, as opposed to what he can do as the President. I think that’s already been considered. He has to get there first.
Having said that, and keeping with what Obama recognized and articulated long ago; “There are NO ‘good’ options for the Iraq debacle, only bad options and worse options”..I think the piece from Brzezinski holds some measure of a workable plan for ANY new administration willing to consider it.
I don’t personally believe that the Clinton administration WOULD consider such a plan, because it requires engaging with Iraq’s neighbors and the remaining geopolitical players in the ME and elsewhere.
I DO believe though, that Obama would, if only because it DOES follow with what he has generally held from the beginning of his campaign.

The Smart Way Out of a Foolish War
By Zbigniew Brzezinski
The Washington Post

Sunday 30 March 2008

Both Democratic presidential candidates agree that the United States should end its combat mission in Iraq within 12 to 16 months of their possible inauguration. The Republican candidate has spoken of continuing the war, even for a hundred years, until “victory.” The core issue of this campaign is thus a basic disagreement over the merits of the war and the benefits and costs of continuing it.

The case for U.S. disengagement from combat is compelling in its own right. But it must be matched by a comprehensive political and diplomatic effort to mitigate the destabilizing regional consequences of a war that the outgoing Bush administration started deliberately, justified demagogically and waged badly. (I write, of course, as a Democrat; while I prefer Sen. Barack Obama, I speak here for myself.)

The contrast between the Democratic argument for ending the war and the Republican argument for continuing is sharp and dramatic. The case for terminating the war is based on its prohibitive and tangible costs, while the case for “staying the course” draws heavily on shadowy fears of the unknown and relies on worst-case scenarios.

President Bush’s and Sen. John McCain’s forecasts of regional catastrophe are quite reminiscent of the predictions of “falling dominoes” that were used to justify continued U.S. involvement in Vietnam. Neither has provided any real evidence that ending the war would mean disaster, but their fear-mongering makes prolonging it easier.

Nonetheless, if the American people had been asked more than five years ago whether Bush’s obsession with the removal of Saddam Hussein was worth 4,000 American lives, almost 30,000 wounded Americans and several trillion dollars -…...”

Nor do the costs of this fiasco end there….In brief, the war has become a national tragedy, an economic catastrophe, a regional disaster and a global boomerang for the United States. Ending it is thus in the highest national interest.

More at the link

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/033008Z.shtml

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By Leefeller, April 5 at 7:16 pm #
(1233 comments total)

Thanks

Sometimes it is necessary to go back and check our posts for follow ups from others.  Almost missed this one, thanks cyerna. As a Vietnam vet I really oppose war, any war.

Report this

By bert, April 3 at 7:49 pm #
(686 comments total)

Another Reply to Joe in Maine

<<<<<<< I’m concerned about how disappointed people will be if and when the screen goes blank. >>>>>>>

Brilliant post and the line above is great.

<<<<<<< I support Hillary because I know she’ll do whatever it takes to win! People think this is so distateful, but we’re not talking about running for president of the PTA. She can beat the snot out of McCain and she will. We need to win because another 8 years of Bush energy policy, blindness to global warming, conservative judges on the SCOTUS, and on and on, means we’ll all have no more hope. >>>>>>>>

I AGREE WHOLE HEARTEDLY !!!!!!!

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By Outraged, April 3 at 7:58 pm #
(869 comments total)

Re: Another Reply to Joe in Maine

And bert speaks the truth.  I wouldn’t of believed it unless I saw it with my own eyes.

bert’s quote:  “I support Hillary because I know she’ll do whatever it takes to win!”

Hey… at least we agree on something. Although it does make me wonder about bert....

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By bert, April 3 at 7:39 pm #
(686 comments total)

Reply to Joe in Maine

Joe in Maine, April 3 at 11:58 am #
(162 comments total)

<<<<<< You’re flat out wrong. She has admitted her war vote was a mistake given what we all know now.>>>>>>

Great post Joe in Maine. I am so glad you pointed out that Obama’s name was not even mentioned in the newspaper accounts of that anti-war rally. He did not make the TV News either.

Amazing how one can build a whole Presidential campaign on so little.

But there is more about that day. No one, and I mean NO ONE has been able to find an audio of that speech and evidently there is no video of that speech either. In one of Obama’s ads there is an audio clip of Obama delivering that speech. IT IS A RECREATION. I wonder, since he has no records of his time in the IL legislature, how he ever managed to keep a copy of that speech in order to be able to recreate it for a political ad. It gets curioser and curioser.

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By cyrena, April 3 at 9:44 pm #
(4172 comments total)

Re: Reply to Joe in Maine

What speech are you talking about bert. Are you talking about a speech made by Barack Obama during the global anti-war activities of February 15th, 2002?

Or, are you talking about his speech delivered at the Democratic Convention?

What speech are you talking about that nobody can find bert?

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By bert, April 3 at 10:04 pm #
(686 comments total)

Reply to Cyrena

Anti-war speech delivered on Wednesday, October 2, 2002 by Barack Obama, Illinois State Senator, at a Chicago anti-Iraq war rally (organized by Chicagoans Against War in Iraq) at noon in Federal Plaza in Chicago, Illinois.

This speech is the basis of his entire assertion that he was right from the beginning on Iraq.

Day after the Dem National Convention speech though he was already back peddling from his anti war speech. In fact, he began back pedlding when he ran for US Senate.

Boston Globe
“In July of 2004, the day after his speech at the Democratic convention catapulted him into the national spotlight, Barack Obama told a group of reporters in Boston that the United States had an “absolute obligation” to remain in Iraq long enough to make it a success.

more stories like this"The failure of the Iraqi state would be a disaster,” he said at a lunch sponsored by the Christian Science Monitor, according to an audiotape of the session. “It would dishonor the 900-plus men and women who have already died. . . . It would be a betrayal of the promise that we made to the Iraqi people, and it would be hugely destabilizing from a national security perspective.”

The statements are consistent with others Obama made at the time, emphasizing the need to stabilize Iraq despite his opposition to the US invasion. But they also represent perhaps his most forceful language in depicting withdrawal from crisis-ridden Iraq as a betrayal of the Iraqi people and a risk to national security.

Obama spoke out passionately against the war in 2002 as an Illinois state senator, while many in Congress were silent. But his thinking on how to resolve the crisis in Iraq evolved.

During his 2004 Senate race, he supported keeping troops in Iraq to stabilize the country. But starting in 2005, as violence engulfed the country, he grew increasingly disillusioned.

[.....]”

Report this

By cyrena, April 3 at 9:46 pm #
(4172 comments total)

Re: Re: Reply to Joe in Maine

Correction, my bad. The anti-war demonstrations of Feb. 15th, 2003. That was the day of the global turnout for millions against the Iraq war that hadn’t yet been launched.

I’m still trying to figure out which speech is it that bert can’t find.

Report this

By Outraged, April 3 at 7:54 pm #
(869 comments total)

Re: Reply to Joe in Maine

Sixpack,

Could you provide the link which shows Clinton’s apology?

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By Joe Sixpack, April 4 at 5:55 pm #
(258 comments total)

Re: Re: Reply to Joe in Maine

Here is the Meet The Press transcript that I quoted in my post.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17065119/page/5/

She didn’t appologize. Why the hell should she? She was fucking lied to!!!!

When was the last time you gave the I’m sorry speech to your signficant other when they lied to you?

Honey? Hey I know you told me that you were going out with Agnus last night but I happened to see your car at Arthur’s house and when I peeked inside I saw you two rolling on the floor in the throws of passion. I want to appologize to you for not taking you at your word. I sure am sorry that you lied to me, dear.

Is this what she should say?

Hillary: “I’m sorry I voted for the war. It was a mistake and I blew it. I took the best information I had at the time, Top Secret information that would have convinced anyone that the threats were real and that Saddam was in bed with Osama. I saw reams of classified documents that showed mobile chemical weapon labs, I saw nuclear materials and photos of the reprocessing reactor, I saw meetings took place between terrorists and Iraqi government officials and you know what? It was complete and total bullshit from the word go. I’m sorry alright! Sorry Nancy Pelosi sat on her ass and didn’t impeach W’s lyin’ ass...” (Storms off the stage)

The whole demand for a “I’m sorry” is totally without merit.

Report this

By bert, April 3 at 6:14 pm #
(686 comments total)

Reply to Outraged

Keep drinking the kool aid Outraged. If you knew how to read and understand polls your posts would be more intelligent. Why don’t you take a course in statistics, or poll creation, or poll analysis at your local college. Oh, I know. That would involve WORK. That would take MENTAL EXERTION. You on the other hand just prefer to HOPE and criticize and belittle others.  Joan Rivers used to have a great line – Oh grow up !!!!!

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By Outraged, April 3 at 7:46 pm #
(869 comments total)

Re: Reply to Outraged

bert,

You can trash talk all you want, but at least I don’t quote Joan Rivers as a measure of my intellectual capacity.

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By bert, April 3 at 10:12 pm #
(686 comments total)

Re: Re: Reply to Outraged

Oh grow up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Report this

By Outraged, April 3 at 5:16 pm #
(869 comments total)

Re: Sixpack

Maybe this link will give you a broader view of reality.

http://news.google.com/nwshp?tab=wn&ned=us&ncl =1148268362&hl=en&topic=el

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By Joe Sixpack, April 3 at 6:20 pm #
(258 comments total)

Re: You're making my point.

Thanks for the help. Your link is exactly what I meant.

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By bert, April 3 at 10:15 pm #
(686 comments total)

Re: Re: You're making my point.

That link is priceless, Joe in Maine!!!!!!!! I didn’t understand what you menat until I clicked on the link. Thanks for the laugh. I needed that today.

Report this

By Joe Sixpack, April 3 at 3:43 pm #
(258 comments total)

Media keeps the Obama Spin Machine-A-Rolling!

So on the day it’s announced that Obama only raised $40 million dollars last month the headline is this:

“Obama has second-best money raising month to date!”

It could easily have been:

Obama raises $17 million less than last month.”

I just wish that the media outlets would stop feeding us a thin veneer of objectivity and simply endorse Obama.

Instead they focus on Hillary’s “money troubles”. She also had the second best money raising month ever but this is what they reported on MSNBC this evening:

“Hillary has a new 3AM phone call add airing today in PA. I wonder if it’s a bill collector calling?”

Fair and balanced? You Obama-lovers better hope the media keeps loving you for the next nine years. It can get so ungly when they turn on you.

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By Leefeller, April 3 at 4:28 pm #
(1233 comments total)

Re: Media keeps the Obama Spin !

Since I do not and maybe some ohers of us do not get our information from the Mass Media, maybe you could keep us up on the good news about Obama?

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By Mikhail, April 3 at 12:58 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Obviously desperate for heroes..

Reading all these comments and replies to comments gives a good view into the base of the Democratic Party.  And, damn, what a view.  Most of you choose one or the other as your hero/heroine based on personality.  And I’ll admit there isn’t much more to base judgment on.

Some play up experience.  Screw experience, get some fresh blood in there.  That’s why all you folks that are so anti-war seem so silly arguing the pro’s and con’s of these two.  What is so painfully obvious is that you all are motivated by prejudice or you would have voted for the one true anti-war candidate regardless of party affiliation....and that was Dr. Ron Paul.

You that play up experience, he has it.  Those of you that play up judgment, he has that, too.  But instead, you as faithfull Democrats are blinded by your own prejudices and instead of voting for the true anti-war candidate, you choose to vote in accords with what makes you feel warm and cozy inside instead of making harsh decisions in a time of harsh reality.

So we come to the end of this pre-election campaign with three of the weakest people available to vote for for President of the United States.  No even a homeless person void of any type of media for years coulda dreamed up such an unrealistic scenario as this. Unfortuately America’s tendency to wear rose colored glasses to filter out reality is why we’ve been stuck with a president that dances like a puppet with the Saudi’s and a president that sucked on a cigar that smelled like a used Tampax while in the Oval Office.

Get a grip people.  Bad as I hate to say it, if we know much about any of these, that’s more than enough not to vote for them.  But you make your choices based on that warm fuzy feeling and not what is good for this country.  Had you all woke up to reality and voted for Dr. Paul, this country would be on the way to fiscal responsibility instead of saddling our grandchildren with insurmountable debt...which will come about more and more regardless of which one of these candidates you vote for.

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By cyrena, April 3 at 6:04 pm #
(4172 comments total)

Re: Obviously desperate for heroes..

You’re actually very wrong here about Dr. Ron Paul. However, I’d admit that had he been given more ‘exposure’ the truth would have come out, and then we’d be even more screwed than we are.

Because, while the war is at the top of the issues concerning Americans in this election, it is not the ONLY issue, and the economy, the loss of jobs, the effects of the free market, etc, etc, are very much on the minds of most Americans.

Dr. Paul has zero solutions for any of those other concerns. You talk about what ‘even homeless’ people might think, as if their homelessness should be an ‘accepted’ reality of our collective society. Ron Paul DOES think that way, but it’s clearly NOT the way most Americans feel.

When we talk about Ron Paul, we are talking about exactly what Barack Obama declared of the current admin, “You’re on your own” folks, and let the survival of the fittest be the doctrine by which to live.

So, there you have it. In a Ron Paul rabbit hole world, we wouldn’t be ‘at war’ in Iraq, because we’d be ‘at war’ with each other right here at home, in the Hobbsean view of dog-eat-dog, and that’s just the way it is.

Had Ron Paul ever gained enough attention, all of this would have eventually come to light. He has no platform other than ending the war, and embracing isolationism, while still encouraging a free market in all sense of the literal term. “Club your neighbor as you would anybody else”….only the strong survive.

He also has no problem with maintaining the dictatorship that our government has become, since he was the only one to present a case AGAINST the resolution prepared by Dennis Kucinich, to impeach Dick Cheney.

It goes without saying that it has been the JOB of every single congressperson to do...EXACTLY THAT..IMPEACH, and Ron Paul has been among those most ferverently devoted to STOPPING any efforts to do exactly that.

That (and many other things) speaks volumes. He’s basically just another Authoritarian under the wrapping.

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By Joe Sixpack, April 3 at 3:07 pm #
(258 comments total)

Re: Obviously desperate for heroes..

Sorry Mikhail.

Dr. Paul has some interesting ideas but unfortunately he’s not taken seriously because those good ideas are all wrapped up in a wacky package. I tried to listen to what Paul had to say in the debates but he was so shrill and out of breath from trying to get 3 points into every answer I found him caustic and I like some of his ideas.

Too bad he doesn’t have a more polished personality. He’s too easy to dismiss with a chuckle.

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By lib in texas, April 3 at 6:55 am #
(293 comments total)

Obama's mentors/I am stunned

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill gods who do not belong to the black community
... Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.
I don’t know what to say Google and see for yourself.
James Cone, Kamau Kambon, Khalid Abdul Muhammad.  The last person Khalid is shadowy involved in getting Obama into Harvard.  This is just blowing me away the implications are enormous.

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By cyrena, April 3 at 9:52 pm #
(4172 comments total)

Re: Obama's mentors/I am stunned

“The last person Khalid is shadowy involved in getting Obama into Harvard.  This is just blowing me away the implications are enormous.”

Holy CRAP Lib in TX.

There you go again. Promises, promises, promises.

Obviously, You have NOT been ‘BLOWN AWAY’ or we wouldn’t all still be subjected to this stupid shit that you keep posting.

Where did you learn about Black Liberation Theology anyway? Was it in the Tuesday, Wedenesday, or Thursday night bible study sessions?

Blown away my ass. If only…

Now THAT would be some serious black liberation theology..YOU blown away!

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By Lee, April 3 at 7:11 am #
(118 comments total)

Re: Obama's mentors/I am stunned

Dear lib in texas ...

Could you please post the url which explains how
Khalid Abdul Muyhammad (who was a member of the
Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers) assisted
in getting Obama into Harvard? The implications
are enormous ... and, if true, should be brought
to light, big time.

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By caucusdebacle, April 2 at 7:33 pm #
(5 comments total)

The Math is Not the Math -- Cheated

15% of Hillary’s older women voters are cheated of their rightful share of the pledged delegates & popular vote because Caucus States forbid them an Absentee Ballot. “If I can’t be there in my body, I don’t count.” These disappeared folks have a terrible fear of falling.  No ride can help them.  It’s the will of only the (healthy) people? Can we really accept that in a democracy?

This Caucus Skew travesty of democracy is the kind of shameful injustice that the non-lemming superdelegates were designed to account for in their thinking.

When the extent of the Caucus Debacle finally get reported fully, people’s notion of what’s actually fair will change. “Oh, no, honey, I don’t dare go to caucus. I’m off-balance.” (In Texas, Hillary was +4 in the primary & -12 in the caucus on the same day! Suppose we had only seen the caucus results? That’s what we saw in Iowa etc. Hillary didn’t ‘gain back women’ in New Hampshire because she teared up in a diner. Nonsense. She never lost them. They just got cheated in Iowa & had Absentee Ballots in New Hampshire.) Unlikely that the Obama-besotted Media will report on this shameful Caucus Skew, but like Diogenes, I hold out hope for one honest reporter.

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By Outraged, April 3 at 6:59 am #
(869 comments total)

Re: The Math is Not the Math --

How do you know that this 15% of older women voters would have voted for Clinton?  You are “claiming” them as Clinton’s yet I do not see any data to prove that nor any links.

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By Joe Sixpack, April 3 at 6:16 pm #
(258 comments total)

Re: Re: The Math is Not the Math

Better take another look at those precious polls of your ‘raged.

More people think Obama is too inexperienced to be President than think Clinton is untruthful or hold McCain responsible for his stance on the war, for that matter.

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By Outraged, April 3 at 5:11 pm #
(869 comments total)

Re: Re: The Math is Not the Math

Re: bert

You never learn do you?  As people read through these posts sixpack and yourself consistently show your negativity and overarching BS.  It’s too bad that you are always wrong, lying or otherwise spewing fictitious garbage.  Somehow in your demented logic you think you are changing public opinion in your favor.

But you are not, as evidenced by the fact the Obama just passed Clinton by 2 pts in the polls today in Pennsylvania. Remember, the ones you said that didn’t matter but then the next day said they did matter since Clinton was ahead.  So what is it today...? I’m guessing that in your opinion they don’t matter again.

No, this 15% of older women will not support Clinton.  A portion possibly.  But most people don’t endorse viciousness and lying.  So the majority will not, most people are much nicer and smarter than you give them credit for.

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By bert, April 3 at 7:05 am #
(686 comments total)

Reply to Outraged

OMG - that fact is all over the place and very well known. In fact, ageism is alive and well here in TD. Haven’t you seen posts where the usual suspects (cyrena and her gang if ignornat bullies) call this large denographic groups old ladies and grandmas. And those are the nice terms.

Yes, consistently Clinton is winning older white and black women and Obama is not.

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By Leefeller, April 3 at 5:48 am #
(1233 comments total)

Re: The Math is Not the Math --

FYI

We do not live in a Democracy, how about the electoral college for starters?

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By bert, April 5 at 6:52 pm #
(686 comments total)

Reply to CY

democracy : A system of government in which the citizens hold the legislative, judicial, and executive power, based on majority rule.

democratic republic : A political system in which a country is ruled by law, has representative government, and is democratic in nature.

From:  Regents Prep: Global History & Geography:
Vocabulary

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By Conservative Yankee, April 4 at 7:34 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Re: The Math is Not the Math

Bert says “the founding fathers created a “democratic republic”???  What please tell, is that?

A democracy is one man (or woman) one vote. We are representative Republic (See Franklin). This means instead of voting on issues we hire representatives to do our governmental work.

The USA has never been any type of democracy.

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By bert, April 3 at 7:08 am #
(686 comments total)

Reply to Leefeller

True - the Ameriac’s founding fathers created a democratic republic.

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By Conservative Yankee, April 3 at 5:12 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Another vicious Clinton Lie

Maine allows absentee ballots for caucus participants.  My 90-year-old mother cast her absentee ballot, and I know this is true, because I trotted it down to the Caucus myself… She voted for Kucinich, and has given me permission to divulge this fact. two myths blown to hell!

I know… maybe people can cast absentee ballots for other candidates, but not for the business shill?

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By Joe Sixpack, April 4 at 5:38 pm #
(258 comments total)

Re: Another vicious Clinton Lie

You are correct sir! Your 90-year old grandmother was allowed to vote absentee in the Maine caucaus. Did you stick around to watch, or did you drop and run? The caucus in our little neck of the pine forest waited until the end to count them. When Obama had a slight lead the Obama captain, acting as caucaus chairman, asked for a show of hands to decide if the absentee ballots should be counted. She was sure to remind everyone that people who vote absentee favor Hillary. The vote to open the absentee ballots was denied to my horror.

So don’t tell me about any vicious lies. I saw it with my own two eyes.

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By bert, April 2 at 10:10 pm #
(686 comments total)

Reply to caucusdebacle

Thanks for your comments. I never realized until this election how bad the caucus system really is. Almost anyone can show up and vote. In several states ther were busloads of people who showed up wuth no ID and just said we are college students. From videos of some caucuses there was a lot of chaos and little accountabilyu. It lloked like what I would imagine would happen in a third world country. There are a lot of stories out there and many folks are gathering evidence of the shenanigans that went on this year.

Again, thanks for posting and sharing your story. No one should be denied the opportunity to vote on a primary or general election in the United States of America.

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By Joe Sixpack, April 3 at 12:50 pm #
(258 comments total)

Re: Reply to caucusdebacle

I hope the fact that Obama’s “caucaus advantage” was nothing more than a mugging in a lot of places. That should make you feel really proud of your fellow Obamabots. In Maine overzealous caucaus captains took over polling places with weak democrat leaders and dismissed absentee ballots by a show of hands after explaining that most of them were “just Hillary votes anyway”. I hope that reminds you a little of Gore getting screwed in Florida and Kerry in Ohio four years later.

Imagine. Some people only think Rethuglicans do stuff like that. Funny thing is that in November the real pros will be out at the polls with much dirtier tricks and this time people actually have to vote, so no more caucaus advantage. Sorry Obamabots.

Somehow, I feel if you were feeling like you were going to win against McCain your answer would be quite different. But that is just me.

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By Leefeller, April 3 at 5:42 am #
(1233 comments total)

Re: Reply to caucusdebacle

Somehow, I feel if you were feeling like your were winning your comments would be quite different. But that is just me.

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By Leefeller, April 2 at 4:12 pm #
(1233 comments total)

Clinton lovers and haters

Yes, we know there is only two ways to look at Hillary, you either love her or you hate her.  You are with us or you are against us, the mentality seems to be similar to something I heard from the enlightened mind of a moron, guess who?

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By wordsonfire, April 2 at 5:26 pm #
(21 comments total)

I wish we fully

apprehended . . . that there is no “them,” and there is only “us,” doing the very best we can . . .

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By wordsonfire, April 2 at 1:52 pm #
(21 comments total)

Here's the Pushback III

5.  “As far as I know” disgusting . . .
I don’t care how many times she had to say NO . . . “as far as I know” should have never been said . . . even if she had to say it 1 billion times.  Again . . . you called her “brilliant.” Someone who is “brilliant” and “engaged” knew exactly what that would mean or do in the public sphere . . . Actually, she shouldn’t even have been talking about him not being Muslim . . . she should have pushed back and challenged the inherent bigotry of the question . . . Or, stood up for herself and said “I’ve answered that question numerous times, do you have any questions of substance and interest to the American people.” My perception of that AS FAR AS I KNOW was that it was totally calculated to generate just the negative buzz about Obama that it did . . .but, she didn’t count that it would also generate negative buzz about Hillary too.  As an attorney who has participated in depositions, etc., it would have been easier and more straightforward to say “I have answered that question numerous times.” She’s a skilled leader/negotiator and she can’t handle that exchange and deflect that question without doing damage to a fellow democrat who is being maligned?
Her comment that she and McCain are ready . . . pretty much explicitly telling her supporters that McCain is better than Obama . . .when issues like the Supreme Court are up for grabs . . . I consider that well beyond the pale . . . when my children have lost the supreme court for at least a generation . . . I will look back at that one moment . . . “McCain is ready, I’m ready and Barack has a speech he made in 2002” (BTW . . .that speech was his principled and prescient opposition speech to the Iraq War).

Clearly, we have very different perspectives and values.

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By Joe Sixpack, April 3 at 3:01 pm #
(258 comments total)

Re: Here's the Pushback III

“You said you’d take Senator Obama at his word that he’s not...a Muslim. You don’t believe that he’s...,” Kroft said.

(Your proposed Hillary Answer:

Hillary - “Steve, I have to ask, what’s wrong about being a Muslim? In my state of NY I represent one of the largest Muslim populations in the United States. I think to some people when they hear Muslim they think radical fundimentalist. Nobody believes Barak Obama is any type of radical. So I reject your question and remind you that Muslim Americans are being unfairly singled out.”

Obama supporters would LOSE THEIR MINDS!

There would have been a far bigger and nastier response to “Not that there is anything wrong with that.” than a little, “as far as I know”.

The media would have forced her to withdraw in a single newscycle.

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By cyrena, April 2 at 6:08 pm #
(4172 comments total)

Re: Here's the Pushback III

Wordsonfire,

Thanks (again) for your excellent post. Your perception of these various remarks and other incidents referencing Hillary’s “Kitchen Sink” campaign, from the Muslim comment, to the endorsement of McCain over her own party’s candidate, to the whole damn kit and kaboodle.

Reasonable people have reached the same conclusions over these past many weeks, and your own ‘perceptions’ and values and principles, (at least as displayed in your posts) seem to me at least, to be in line with the thinking of the average Americans who read and comment on these threads.

In other words, not so different from what I guess I would call the mainstream, though admittedly the term is relative these days.

That said, your mainstream opinion seem to have attracted the wrath of Lib in Texas. It would appear that you have replaced me, (and a few others) at least temporarily, as a “RADICAL” who HATES Hillary Clinton.

Now of course I’m not a ‘radical’ and I don’t ‘hate’ Hillary Clinton. It probably goes without saying that I don’t LIKE her, and would NOT want her as the president of this country that has always been my home, and the home of my ancestors, and theirs before that.

I’ve not always felt this particular dislike for Hillary Clinton, because we simply have not (or I have not) been privy to ALL of her former dealings, which have begun to surface in the consciousness of the public. Even more than that however, are simply HER OWN ACTIONS including some of the votes and legislation that she’s sponsored in the Senate.  Her vote for the illegal and immoral aggressive war on Iraq IS NOT A SMALL THING, for anyone we might consider for the highest office in the land.  Her support of the Kyle-Lieberman bill is equally egregious, and proves her lack of judgment in most matters of foreign policy.

And, that was all BEFORE she started the most negative mud slinging campaign that I’ve even witnessed, with the exception of a long ago TX Governor’s race. (But, that was TX, so that’s SOP there---ankle-biters and all of that).

So, just to reiterate, reasonable people make reasonable decisions based on rational judgment and logic. Reason intertwined with values and principles are what I believe the majority of us use for our basic decision-making exercises.

There will always be those who operate from raw emotion that is totally divorced from reason, (ie, Lib in TX and others) and so we accept that as well. Ignoring the ignorance doesn’t always work, but it seems to be the best of bad options.
March 31, 2008
Watergate-Era Judiciary Chief of Staff: Hillary Clinton Fired For Lies, Unethical Behavior

As Hillary Clinton came under increasing scrutiny for her story about facing sniper fire in Bosnia, one question that arose was whether she has engaged in a pattern of lying.

The now-retired general counsel and chief of staff of the House Judiciary Committee, who supervised Hillary when she worked on the Watergate investigation, says Hillary’s history of lies and unethical behavior goes back farther – and goes much deeper – than anyone realizes

http://www.northstarwriters.com/dc163.htm

There’s no other way to put it. The woman who would be President inflated her resume, lied outright about being “under fire” in an attempt to bolster her national security credentials, plotted to overturn the will of pledged delegates at the Democratic National Convention in August and lobbied to change the rules after she signed a pledge to honor her party’s decision on voting in Michigan and Florida.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/cat_politicselection scorruption.html#081846

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