Thank you Juan Moment for posting Kev Carmody’s words on Jesus Christ. They are really beautiful words with deep meanings and relevance. The Jesus Christ described in these words is the true Jesus Christ with which I can identify, without being formally a Christian. He was indeed one of the greatest humanitarian socialists and reformers, and I feel honored that I come from the same land he came from and that many times in my youth I walked over the same paths and places he walked. I am, like him, has been described by some nuts on these threads as a “radical agitator” and they would love to crucify me if they can have their way.

It the best proof that you want god to be happy!  Let’s hear it for Ho Tai!

Cannabis is the best proof I know that God wants us to be happy.

• “I didn’t read however, Fadel, that cyrena views Buddhism as a religion.”

Fadel, this is a correct ‘read’ or interpretation from Shenonymous, I (personally) DO NOT view Buddhism as a ‘religion’ but rather the philosophy that Shenonymous correctly identifies it to be at it’s origins. This is why, (my understanding) ‘pure’ Buddhists reject the notion of a God, or mono-deity.

At least that is my OWN understanding of it, and so there is a clear distinction in my own understanding between THEO-logy, and PHIL-osophy, even though I also understand that they frequently share characteristics. I think of Philosophy as Theology without the god component.

I should also say that I do appreciate the basis of the Buddhist Philosophy to the extent that I understand it.

That said, I ALSO appreciate your friendly advice Fadel. It is well accepted. But just so we’re clear, I don’t claim to consider Buddhism a ‘religion’ per se, at least at its origins, so I wouldn’t ‘pick’ it as such.

HOWEVER, there are those among us who are far less informed, and many of them have come to view Buddhism as a ‘religion’. That’s for another argument I suppose, but I am not among them, so it may have been a slip of the tongue, or I may have failed to properly articulate that in my own comments.

Also, thanks for the reference to the manipulation of the Buddhists in Tibet. This does NOT surprise me, (though of course it does infuriate me) because anything this corrupted gang of thugs does in the advance of their geo-political supremacy comes as no surprise at all.

In support of both of Fadel’s comments, unfortunately for humans, who have a habit of turning esoteria into religions, Buddhism as it is practiced by the many today was not originally a religion but rather is a philosophy.  When religion enters into the picture, dogma and doctrine force philosophical thought more often than not to be militant at its base.  As such, religions have a pre-disposition to have as one of its facets (using the image of a diamond as a metaphor), a mindless immorality of violence.  This is true of the ancient Greek Olympians as well as any existent religion of today, except perhaps the Amish and the Quaker denominations of Christianity that essentially are non-violent and pacifistic. Although there is even within those religions a scent of Evangelism with a capital E.  I didn’t read however, Fadel, that cyrena views Buddhism as a religion. 

cyrena, your assessment of Hillary has some validity.  A typical politician to be sure, but then I do not exempt Barack Obama from that class either.  While he has much to say that is exemplary, I suspect the heart of the politican is beating there as well.  It will be interesting to see how the candidacy for president pans out at the Democratic convention.  I feel sure most of us are watching these candidates with intensity as the election has ascended to be one of the most important in our history as a country.

As a follow up to my previous short message to Cyrena, please read this to note that the so-called peaceful Buddhists of Tibet have been manipulated to serve U.S. and Israeli political-military ends!
============================================
From The Tibet Card - By Soraya Sepahpour-Ulrich - West is punishing China for its reluctance to impose sanctions on Iran:-

China has always shown reluctance to impose sanctions on Iran. From an Israeli and American perspective, China became a veritable short-term liability (versus a long term power challenging the US) when Iran and China engaged in talks to allow for a military base for China in one of Iran’s Persian Gulf ports…

“I DO appreciate very much, the Buddhist philosophy, IF in fact it can be considered a ‘religion’. So, if I had to ‘pick’ that’s what it would be.”
=========================================
Be careful Cyrena with picking Buddhism for a “religion” for the Buddhists in the Tibetan capital have been attacking China’s dominant Han ethnic groups and Chinese Muslims known as Hui and burning down their mosques. They are not the peaceful guys you think they are! It’s better for you to stay agnostic or atheist. Just a friendly advice!

Thanks more Shenon…

Sounds good enough to me. (agnostic uncertains). Actually, I might be even closer to the certainty that there is no god - PERIOD - but I’m willing to recognize SOMETHING as being far more powerful than any human could could conceive.

It’s interesting though, (the continuation of your earlier post) because I DO appreciate very much, the Buddhist philosophy, IF in fact it can be considered a ‘religion’. So, if I had to ‘pick’ that’s what it would be.

And, my understanding is that a bona fide Buddhist, DOES NOT believe in God. (with a big or little ‘g’). Now that’s what one of my religious scholar friends told me, and she concentrated her doctoral work on mostly the Asian religions. I actually took a few excellent courses in those areas.

So yep. That sounds good enough to me. I’m thinking I’m like ‘between sizes’ of the atheist and the agnostic. I firmly hold to your own opinion though, that “religion” )at least as it is conceived by most who practice it), is an attempt to explain what can’t be explained. (no doubt that’s a lazy paraphrase. My apologies)

And, very much like you, I have absolutely no troubles with those who do practice their religions, and I don’t care which one it happens to be. I just don’t want it ‘dripping in my face’, (I love that) and I DAMN sure don’t want it guiding the shared politics or policies that I have to live with. OH NO! That will not DO!!

The paradox is that those who DO use religion to formulate policy DON’T BELIEVE OR PRACTICE IT THEMSELVES!! It is a cruel and hideous paradox that will snuff the life out of everything.

Witness the Dick Bush gang of thugs. Need we say more?

And ya know, Hillary is really working my nerves as well. “She would have left the pastor/church"… my ass. She didn’t leave her husband, did she? Nope. And, I’m NOT “calling judgment” on her for staying. Not at all. I didn’t then, and I’m not now.

HOWEVER, she DOES need to STFU about what anybody else needs to do. So, I AM ‘calling judgment’ on THAT hypocrisy, and so many more.

It’s got nothing to do with god either.

Amen.

*cyrena- • “..This and that fantastical explanation divulges a mental aberration in an attempt to explain what is really unexplainable in any cogent way.”

So, I’m settling for the size that fits best, as described by Purple Girl..The Forces of Nature.
_____________________________________________________

We are composed of those very same forces we percieve, not exclusive, or above, as on the outside looking in. Fire can burn your hand as surely as cook your favorite recipe.

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope

Richard:

Let me offer alternative readings re Obama:

4 - “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” It is not “holy” to sit in a pew on the Sabbath day listening to a preacher “damn” America, or make some other very unholy statements.

5 - “Honor thy father and thy mother.” But it’s okay to throw grandma under the bus…

6 - “Thou shalt not kill.” Voting to fund the war that killed 4,000 soldiers and millions of Iraqis makes one complicit in the killing.

8 - “Thou shalt not steal.” I would say that includes elections, which is exactly what Obama did his very first time in the running.

10 - “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house...” But it is okay to purchase contiguous lots with thy neighbor, despite the fact that he is a slumlord from whom you have accepted over $250,000 in campaign contributions.

Peace.

cyrena, sounds like you are more comfortable in the class of agnostics who are uncertain and tends to believe in a god (force of nature, or The Force of Nature, with caps if it is preferred).  We, each of us, have to find our own way through this “mortal coil,” as the peerless William Shakespeare called it.  Life is tough, it is hard, and it is antipathetic.  I am quite existentialist about it.  Unless it drips in my face, I accept anyone’s life management system, regardless of whether it accepts religion as a way or not.  Aristotle once said the ‘way’ is wide and I believe it is.  We make it through as best we can.  I have some very insightful Christian friends, Muslim friends, Jewish friends, and eastern religious friends and of course, atheist friends, all of whom are brilliant and tolerant of other’s beliefs or non-beliefs.  I am completely comfortable in my absolute atheism chair.  However, when I intuit a pompous infringement on my or other’s beliefs or non-beliefs, I balk and sometimes make defining reactive statements, sometimes outrageously reactive statements, for I know these intolerants acutely and adversely affect my life and the lives of others by way of political agendas.

Anyone is free to believe or not believe in the big old white man with a white beard on a white cloud bunch of bull all they want but one thing is for sure, by the hands of the neocons this country will surely falter and go through very very bad times and no amount of chruch going or praying will stop it.

• “..This and that fantastical explanation divulges a mental aberration in an attempt to explain what is really unexplainable in any cogent way.”

Thanks Shenonymous!!

This is EXACTLY what I needed.

Meantime, I’ve carefully examined your explanations and categories, and I can’t find one that I fit in. (Damn! It’s the story of my life).

So, I’m settling for the size that fits best, as described by Purple Girl..The Forces of Nature.

There’s gotta be SOME explanation for why I can never fit into a category. So, it must be The Force of Nature.

How’s THAT for the mental aberration that attempts to explain what is really unexplainable in any cogent way?

Come on, admit it…it’s as good as any of the others.

Oh, there was a brief period of time many decades ago, when I ‘explained’ this by way of a suggestion that the wrong people had brought me home from the hospital..accidently or otherwise.

Back then, I was sure I’d actually been born into the Rockefeller family, but then I finally figured out that it didn’t really matter.

“I don’t want a president that doesn’t even protest when his pastor screams “God damn America” when we are attacked.  Of course, Obama wasn’t seeking the presidency then, so there would have been no reason for him to disagree with Wright’s tirades.”

You’ve just summed up the McCain election strategy. Who will most Americans vote for in November? The war hero or the coward who didn’t stand up for the war but merely gave one anti-war speech when there was no political downside? Vote for an All American or a guy who wants to negotiate with terrorist regimes? Vote for an experienced leader or a liberal elitist in an empty suit? You framed Obama perfectly and it will be the end of him in the fall.

Purple Girl…

You’ve said it far better than I ever could..

“...I consider myself an Atheist. Not so much because I do no tbelieve theri are forces greater than Us. But those forces do not Judge- only Act & respond to Waht we Do and don’t do.Call It A god or Just the Force of Nature...”

And, I’m with ya. I call it the ‘Indian Way’, but ‘The Force of Nature’ works just as well. (Maybe better now that I think of it). The meaning and the foundation are the same.

I can’t disagree with you CY.  FYI though:  My cat is an atheist cat!  I know this to be true because he never even says God Bless You when I sneeze.

I consider myself an Atheist. Not so much because I do no tbelieve theri are forces greater than Us. But those forces do not Judge- only Act & respond to Waht we Do and don’t do.Call It A god or Just the Force of Nature. Either way we are at it’s mercy and held Responsible. Regardless who or What Placed Us at the top of the Evolutionary Chain- We are the Top ‘Dogs’, and thus responsible for the “Pack” and the conditions by Which ALL survives. We are the Stewads. Judgement will not come from an omnipotent entity, but from those who are Our Charges now and those who Follow. blaming any Entity such as a God or nature is Failing to take Responsiblity- thus a Dereliction of Duty. WE have been given a ‘Gift’, Not just the Planet and all it sustains- but the Mental and physical ability to Understand it and manage it. Instead we have spent our history fightin g& bickering over the ‘gift’ intead of Sharing It- Mother may come and just take it away- thus WE All Lose. We have denied the graciousness of the ‘gift’ and our Own Capablities - A ‘sin ‘ against either a God or Nature and all that this gift encompasses and it’s future.

GB, I’ve already blogged often before in other topics about 9/11 - and I have agreed with what you said, duh....

Blackspeare: Today, things haven’t changed very much----it’s still the Christians against the Muslims with the Jews rooting for the Christians----how ‘bout that!  As Bush inadvertently said in the early days before the war----it’s a crusade against Islamic extremists.  I guess that things haven’t change very much in over 800 years!!!
****************************************************
You forgot to mention Christian progressives against Christian fundamentalists (Christians against Christians).  I do believe Bush said it was a crusade against the “axis of evil,” not realizing, being a Religious Right Zealot, he’s part of that “axiis”.

As a counter aside, atheism is not a religion; it is the antithesis of religion.  You completely misunderstand the atheist position with respect to religion.  Not only that, and here is another aside:  there is a spectrum, a range as it were, from the position of non-believers to believers in a god.  I use the lower case of god on purpose out of respect really, as there are various religions that call their god by different names and have different conceptions.  The strongest atheists plain and simple say there is no evidence of an interacting supernatural being and they “know” this with the same degree of conviction as those who strongly believe there is a god.  Then you have atheists who say they cannot “know” for certain, but that there is a god is very improbable and they live their life on the assumption that there is none.  The next group could be called agnostic with a tendency towards atheism, that say they do not know whether a god exists but they tend to think not.  Then you have the 50 per centers (as per R. Dawkins), or the totally impartial agnostics, who say existence and non-existence of a god are exactly on the money equally probable.  There are those agnostics who are very uncertain, and tend to believe in a god.  Or, you have strong theists who hedges just a tad and holds the weak caveat that ‘they cannot know for certain’ but strongly believes and lives their lives as if there were.  Finally, you have the strongest theists who says they ‘know’ there is a god, somehow.  The burden of proof is always on those who claim the existence of something.  For those who are complete skeptics have nothing to prove by virtue of the concept of nothing, there is nothing there to prove. 

Everything else that is discussed is mumbo jumbo.  This and that fantastical explanation divulges a mental aberration in an attempt to explain what is really unexplainable in any cogent way.

What a bunch of satirical crock on this post!  Let me add some crock of my own.  It is well documented that religion and the belief in God has done much more harm than good!  The founders of the USA considered themselves Deists, which, in essence, is saying that a Supreme Being may have once existed, but no longer has any influence.  In a way it a cheap way of saying they were agnostics or atheists.  As an aside, Atheism can be considered a religion because it is a belief in the non-existence of a God which is something that can’t proven or unproven, which is the essence of a religion.  So to be a true atheist one must ascribe to being an agnostic----sorry!

All religions hate one another because of the obvious need to dominate or the religion falters.  The Jews took a backseat because they failed to proselytize and thwarted their chance to become dominant.  The Christians made no such mistake and that’s why they are where they are today!  The Muslims made their gains by force of arms and conquest in a world that needed organization----works just as well as proselytizing----convert or die!

Today, things haven’t changed very much----it’s still the Christians against the Muslims with the Jews rooting for the Christians----how ‘bout that!  As Bush inadvertently said in the early days before the war----it’s a crusade against Islamic extremists.  I guess that things haven’t change very much in over 800 years!!!

(my posts seem to be disappearing...here it goes again)

Shenonymous, I wonder if you haven’t buried your mind too deeply into the test-tubes of material science, whose ‘church’ has become equally bound by its own dogma of limited vision.

Anyway, good luck in your quest.

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope

Let all stoners rejoice and let all the psychotic murderers in the world get loaded and behave like decent people.

I wonder if you haven’t buried your mind too deeply into the test-tubes of material science, whose ‘church’ has become equally bound by its own dogma.

Anyway, good luck in your quest.

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope

zeitgeist, perhaps I am more kind to humans.  Self-serving interests are genetic.  However, a characteristic that conscious human beings evolved to have is the power to mediate that utter selfishness through understanding the benefit of altruistic intention.  I am atheistic seeing it superfluous and no need to sit on the fence of agnosticism.  This is a conscious choice, borne out of the human capacity to comprehend the human situation.  One cannot ‘naturally perceive’ what lies beyond the natural realm of the genes, it takes an unnatural consciousness to have such insight. 

I understand human history and our advancement from beast to minds capable of such cognition and abstract thought as exemplified by your very comments here.  It is irrelevant that irrational sacred concepts are placed in the hands of tyrants if there is only a solitary quest for whatever the Grail represents.  Seeing that organizations such as “the church” are dispensable for a happy and coexistent life would be the best path and I believe will eventually be the path taken. Humans make mistakes and I agree that the division between mind and body is the main problem arising out of ignorance that will be alleviated as the evolution of the human mind progresses. Sentience and consciousness take “time.” We are too anxious.

PR=Pat Robertson

Yeah, thanks.  He said any friend of mine is a friend of his too.  And if you’d like to meet him, we’d have to go in the back door, just give him a little notice so he can tie up his pit bull.

Lust for Empire and a Dying God PsychoDrama

According to a United Nations report, 971 Palestinian and Israeli children were killed between September 2000 — the beginning of the second intifada — and July 2007. Of those destroyed children, 854 were Palestinian. The intifada and the dying continue.

It is these children’s lives that the evangelical political action committee, Christians United for Israel, is willing to sacrifice on the altar of its fundamentalist eschatology in the hope of bringing about Armageddon and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.......

Full Story:

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/27/7920/

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope

**By Shenonymous, March 27 at 6:18 pm
(Not sure to what you are referring zeitgeist, if you are commenting on my post.  My remark has to do with a critique of Israel and all religion in general and the kind of sloppy thinking that has gone on.

I took specific issue with the Abrahamic religions.  My estimation of Hebraism or Jewism, in terms of it being a form of Abrahamic religion along with its siblings Christianity and Islam are all equally irrational and that none are exempt. 
That being said, I have no care what people want to do. If they want to believe that some supernatural being deserves some devotion, it is entirely their choice and as long as there is no violence done to non-believers of their respective religions and politically they stay within the practices of their non-violent doctrines, then I have no further critical interest in them other than what I have already said.)

Shenonymous, the intent of my response to you was to pin-point, the crossroads into which a divisive wedge was driven, resulting in a people’s history being hijacked, for the sake of empire. Today, we continue to ride in the tumultuous wake of these forces of nature that were then perturbed.

As the adepts say, to allow such ‘irrational sacred concepts’ to be placed into the hands of an imperial religious, or secular tyrant, is like casting the pearls to the swine. As I have stated elsewhere, those who have studied this know how precisely how easily such abstractions can be ‘intentionally’ misconstrued by the divisive will of a mundane mind. The ancient abstract philosophy is intended strictly as a map for personal guidance, but as in Grail Quest stories, the door will only open to the heart of Maat. The church, blinded by its own worldly pursuit saw it as a ‘tool for power’. By misdirecting attention away from the true nature of the map, they instead caused an evil division between spirit and matter to manifest in its midst, fueling the fires of its own dogma and justifying its own bitterness and hatred, resulting in the carnage of war against anything that stood in its way, or questioned its authority.

I am neither agnostic nor atheist, but I do subscribe to a perspective that allows one to ‘naturally’ perceive that which lies beyond the rational realm of senses. It is, after all, from the irrational that the rational is manifest. As history has proven, this quest is best left up to the individual, and out of the perverse hands of base human nature, especially a blind self-serving soul on the seat of power.

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope

Well said Fadel!

Interesting? What happened to all of the comments here; they seem to have vanished?

Sorry for the typos; this is an edited Copy of a previous post!
=================================================
This is indeed a good piece by Robert Scheer, and the best part of it, as I see it, is his bringing up the hypocrisy, split vision and double standards when comparing what fanatic Robertson and Hagee have been saying, without much reaction or condemnation, to what Rev. Jeremiah Wright said, with the exaggerated overreaction to his words, which he only took from the Bible that Christians believe it’s the word of God.

As an aside, I am really surprised how a nation whose majority population are Christians, whether practicing or not, resent someone reminding them that a loving God (or nature) can also be a God (or nature) of retribution or consequences when major sins, like mass killing in wars, are committed.  This is all in the Old Testament, as well as is in all monotheistic religions.

In fact, the concept of a God of Retribution is even older than the history of monotheistic religions. It originated among the ancient Greeks to whom we owe our imperfect democracy. Thus the Greeks believed in NEMESIS, the goddess or retribution, who punishes human transgression of the natural, right order of things and the arrogance that causes it. This is why the secular enlightened writer Chalmers Johnson entitled his excellent book, “NEMISIS: THE LAST DAYS OF THE AMERICAN REPUBLIC;” one of the best books I read lately.

And since I am at it, let me play the advocate of a god of retribution for the evils we did in the Iraqi ongoing 5-years old war. In Iraq, we met a presumed enemy, but it turned out to be that the enemy is us, with our so-called Commander-in-Chief, sitting cowardly in the artificial security of the White House, while sending young Americans and spending precious American treasury, to kill and destroy and to be killed and destroyed. And only a naive person would think that all this can happen without consequences. If we need to speak about the worsening economic situation in our country, we must by necessity connect it to the war in Iraq; otherwise we all will be hypocrites, with split vision, and like the ostriches which bury their heads in the sand!

Thank you Rev. J. Wright for reminding us about some very important, yet inconvenient truths!

This is indeed a good piece by Robert Scheer, and the best part of it, as I see it, is his bringing up the hypocricy, split vision and double standards when comparing what fanatic Robertson and Hagee have been saying, without much reaction or condemnation, to what Rev. Jeremiah Wright said, with the exaggerated overreaction to his words, which he only took from the Bible that Christians believe it’s the word of God.

As an aside, I am really surprised how a nation whose majority population are Christians, whether practicing or not, resent someone reminding them that a loving God (or nature) can also be a God (or nature) of ritribution or consequences when major sins, like mass killing in wars, are committed.  This is all in the Old Testamant, as well as is in all monotheistic religions.

In fact, the concept of a God of Ritribution is even older than the history of monotheistic religions. It originated among the ancient Greeks to whom we owe our imperfect democracy. Thus the Greeks believed in NEMESIS, the goddess or ritribution, who punishes human transgression of the natural, right order of things and the arrogance that causes it. This is why the secular enlightened writer Chalmers Johnson entitled his excellent book, “NEMISIS:THE LAST DAYS OF THE AMERICAN REPUBLIC;” one of the best books I read lately.

And since I am at it, let me play the advocate of a god of ritribution for the evils we did in the Iraqi ongoing 5-years old war. In Iraq, we met a presumed enemy, but it turned out to be that the enemy is us, with our so-called Commander-in-Chief, sitting cowardly in the artificial security of the White House, while sending young Americans and spending precious American treasury, to kill and destroy and to be killed and destroyed. And only a naive person would think that all this can happen without consequences. If we need to speak about the worsening economic situation in our country, we must by necessitty connect it to the war in Iraq, otherwise we all will be hypocrites, with split vision, and like the ostriches which bury their heads in the sand!

Thank you Rev. Jeremiah Wright for reminding us about some very important, though inconvenient truths!

Not sure to what you are referring zeitgeist, if you are commenting on my post.  My remark has to do with a critique of Israel and all religion in general and the kind of sloppy thinking that has gone on. 

I took specific issue with the Abrahamic religions.  My estimation of Hebrewism or Jewism, in terms of it being a form of Abrahamic religion along with its siblings Christianity and Islam are all equally irrational and that none are exempt. 

That being said, I have no care what people want to do.  If they want to believe that some supernatural being deserves some devotion, it is entirely their choice and as long as there is no violence done to non-believers of their respective religions and politically they stay within the practices of their non-violent doctrines, then I have no further critical interest in them other than what I have already said.

I beg to differ with you in the sense that, according to some researchers, from Tuthmoses III and Sahra (Abraham’s wife) issued Isaac.
This is why Abraham wished to slay Isaac, it wasn’t his, but Abraham’s hand was stayed with certain promises bestowed by Pharaoh Tuthmoses III, the father.

Ismael was Abraham’s true son through Hagor, the Eqyptian handmaiden given to Abraham to take care of Isaac once he was born.

Christianity, rather Paulianity, is a self-serving Roman fabrication, based on an Egyptian mythos.

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope

Israel is no better, nor worse, than any of the world’s religions but particularly their co-generic Abrahamic religions of Christianity and Islam. Any militant religion is barbaric and uncivilized.  Religions who are about the business of their own should be able to do whatever they want as long as no one is hurt in any way.  Religions who use their dramatic stage to play a deadly game of politics is on the threshold of absurdity.

I agree with most of what you say, although I don’t see why you are so hard on Scheer. I imagine he agrees with what you say about Wright.

I think it is true that Obama’s supporters are getting frustrated as Obama tries to build a coalition so broad that it contains some pretty incompatible elements. It is difficult to unite them behind some common