I’m in the process of answering this question, thanks to yesterday’s ‘prompt’ from Marshall.
(who would have ever thought I could get something constructive from him, in reference to any serious analytical discussion the theories of “Just War” or the legalities of waging war).

Anyway, while I’ve only begun, and while I have to acknowledge that the analysis takes place in hindsight, (as do so many of these) I’ve come to the conclusion that even Afghanistan, was not a Just or even legal war.

Needless to say, many people have accepted the invasion of Afghanistan as justified in response to 9/11. However, even IF there were not serious discrepancies about the real perpetrators of 9/11, we DO know that Afghanistan, (as a sovereign nation state) was NOT responsible for it; not the people, and not the political ‘leaders’ of that nation.  Not even the Taliban can be blamed for perpetrating the events of 9/11. The best we can manage would be to blame them for sheltering or protecting the ‘named’ perpetrators, al-Qaeda. None of the ‘named’ participants were Afghanis, and while Osama bin Laden may be the ‘official’ head of this organization, and a known terrorist himself, neither he nor the group has any affiliation to any nation state.

If the US was interested in going after OBL or al-Qaeda, nearly any other nation state could be subjected to the same. Saudi Arabia, (home of OBL) Egypt, (home of al-Zawahiri – co-founder of al-Qaeda with bin Laden) Pakistan, (another major hang-out/hide for al-Qaeda and bin Laden), Yemen, or any of the other homes of the ‘named’ perpetrators.

So, why Afghanistan, aside from the fact that we’ve been fed the information that it was OBL’s hide-out at the time? And why Afghanistan, if the real culprit we were after was Osama bin Laden, when it appears the Bush Admin knew exactly where OBL was at the time?

“If the CBS report by Dan Rather is accurate and Osama had indeed been admitted to the Pakistani military hospital on September 10, 2001, courtesy of America’s ally, he was in all likelihood still in hospital in Rawalpindi on the 11th of September, when the attacks occurred.  In all probability, his whereabouts were known to US officials on the morning of September 12, when Secretary of State Colin Powell initiated negotiations with Pakistan, with a view to arresting and extraditing bin Laden.

A recent Reuters report (11/13/03; scroll down) quoting Labeviere’s book “Corridors of Terror” points to alleged “negotiations” between Osama bin Laden and the CIA, which took place two months prior to the September 11, 2001 attacks at the American Hospital in Dubai, UAE, while bin Laden was recovering from a kidney dialysis treatment
Enemy Number One in hospital recovering from dialysis treatment “negotiating with CIA”?

The meeting with the CIA head of station at the American Hospital in Dubai, UAE was confirmed by a report in the French daily newspaper Le Figaro, published in October 2001.” (See Alexandra Richard,
at
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/RIC111B.html

For a virtual tour of the hospital
http://www.ahdubai.com/site/tour_1.htm

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO311A.html

Based on that, how do we call the invasion and yes – OCCUPATION of Afghanistan a ‘Just War’? Yeah, so the Taliban were bad guys. That doesn’t follow that they were responsible for 9/11.

So, NOT a just war. I’m still working on it.

Few Big Lies: Not Handling Iraq Truth
By Nat Parry
March 26, 2008

With the Iraq War entering its sixth year and the U.S. death toll now surpassing 4,000, it has become fashionable – and rather convenient – to claim that no one prior to the invasion five years ago could have foreseen what a bloody disaster the war would turn out to be.

Typical is a recent article by Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter John Burns, published in the New York Times a few days before the fifth anniversary of the U.S. invasion.

“Back in 2003,” he wrote, “only the most prescient could have guessed that … the toll would include tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed, as well as nearly 4,000 American troops.”

Burns goes on to marvel over the fact that there are now “a million or more Iraqis living as refugees in neighboring Arab countries,” suggesting that this too, was utterly unpredictable.

But while it may now be conventional wisdom to claim that the war’s bloody and tragic toll was unforeseen, it is not, in fact, true.
In the months leading up to the invasion, independent journalists and international organizations tried to highlight the potential human costs, while tens of millions of ordinary people marched in cities across the world in a desperate attempt to stop the war before it started.

Central to the pleas for peace was the argument that any attack on Iraq would necessarily involve needless deaths of Iraqi civilians and that the Bush administration’s primary argument for invading – Iraq’s alleged possession of WMD – was unsubstantiated and possibly unfounded.

International organizations and well-respected NGOs also highlighted the likely human costs of a war, including its inevitable civilian casualties and the potential displacement of countless Iraqis.

Warnings Ignored

Continued at the link.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/Print/2008/032608b.html

If the intention of Bush & Co. from the outset was to occupy Afghanistan and not to leave as soon as the Taliban was gone and Bin Laden was in US custody, dead or alive, then it was an unjust war, Marshall. I feel Bush & Co. deliberately let the Taliban and Bin Laden off the hook, just to justify an open-ended war---much as the Iraq War was deliberately botched after “Mission Accomplished” in order to justify making that war an open-ended quagmire (which Bush & Co. stupidly think we’re bound to win because we’re Americans and we have some kind of special mission from God to democratize the world with fire and sword starting with the Middle East).

I’m sure some would say that Jefferson’s war vs. the Barbary pirates was analogous to the Afghan (or Iraq) War, but I say not. Once the stated, limited objective of the war was accomplished, we withdrew before we could wind up spending ourselves to death (both blood and treasure) in an open-ended occupation. Back in those days, Marshall, we knew how to win our wars and not drag them out foolishly.

As Sun Tzu said, “There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited.”

Okay, so was Afghanistan a Just War or not?

...is a realistic foreign policy, one that recognizes that the USA is not powerful enough to solve the world’s problems, and that it has more than enough on its plate to solve domestically (like the tanking economy, for instance).

“Pacifist”? I happen to be a gun owner who owns an “assault weapon” and believes strongly in self-defense. But I also believe in Just War, and I define Just War only two ways---(a) wars of national defense against a foreign invader, and (b) wars of national liberation against either a foreign occupier or a home-grown dictator.

I subscribe to the foreign-policy formula of Thomas Jefferson, from his 1st inaugural address: “Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none.” So please don’t refer to me as an “isolationist”, either. Isolationism is like Albania under Hoxha, or North Korea under the Kims, not like the neutrality the Founders wanted for this country.

^ mostly the “owned”.  Good post; yes Cheney was honest and “breathtakingly arrogant”.  That’s what I liked about what he said; flying “true colors”.  So what; we won’t do anything about it.  Sad..........

Thank you Eugene.

“At least Cheney was being candid, if breathtakingly arrogant. He and George W. Bush have never cared what the American people might think about this elective war. A little bamboozling was necessary at the beginning—overblown claims about weapons of mass destruction, mushroom clouds and being “greeted as liberators” by smiling Iraqi children. Once that hurdle was surmounted, and once Saddam Hussein’s government had been destroyed, there was essentially nothing anyone could do to force the Bush administration to bring the war to an end.”

And I did see you “revised” that.  Problem is… we’ll, or more accurately “they’ll” keep on revising it, until we take control of this country as a people, cut out the big corps, and begin to at least suppose to be a humane addition to the human race.

We need to stop slavery once and for all.  And the dirty little secret is, if you’re not one of the big owners---you’re one of the owned. Black, white or otherwise, those are the facts.

What do they say when your dealt a shitty hand in cards....read ‘em and weep...or play the hand you got.

It’s a Number
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Columnist
Excerpts from..

You can always hear the people who are willing to sacrifice somebody else’s life. They’re plenty loud and they talk all the time. You can find them in churches and schools and newspapers and legislatures and congress. That’s their business. They sound wonderful. Death before dishonor. This ground sanctified by blood. These men who died so gloriously. They shall not have died in vain. Our noble dead. Hmmmm. But what do the dead say?
- Dalton Trumbo, “Johnny Got His Gun”

White House press secretary Tony Snow, the third man to hold that post in the Bush administration since 2001, began the June 15, 2006, noon press briefing with a few prepared remarks before opening the floor to questions from the assembled crowd of reporters. The first to speak noted, “American deaths in Iraq have reached 2,500,” before asking, “Is there any response or reaction from the president on that?”

“It’s a number,” replied Snow, “and every time there’s one of these 500 benchmarks people want something.”

As of that June day in 2006, the number of American soldiers killed in Iraq had reached “one of these 500 benchmarks” for a fifth time since the 2003 invasion. Snow’s unabashed dismissal of the grim reality that number represented was as vile as it was predictable, a perfect illustration of the administration’s cold indifference and demented priorities. It’s a number. It’s a benchmark. People want something. Next question.

On Monday, that benchmark was reached for an eighth time. Four US soldiers were killed late Sunday when their vehicle was bombed in south Baghdad, bringing the total number of American troops lost in Iraq to 4,000. It’s a number. It’s a benchmark. People want something. Next question.

“The Surge” was going to lead us out of Iraq, at first, kinda, until “The Surge” became the main argument for why we had to stay in Iraq for now, until a date to be determined later, or maybe not for another hundred years, give or take, according to a war hero who survived unimaginable torture so he could become the GOP’s presidential standard-bearer and be for the torture of anyone, anywhere, under any circumstances and in the name of America, before he was against it, as far as anyone knows, or something.

“The Surge” was keeping American soldiers safe, sort of, except for those four American soldiers who died on Monday, except for those 600 American soldiers who died during “The Surge,"…

Leave off the fact that a married couple and their three sons died when either a rocket or a mortar hit their central Baghdad home, that two people died and seven were wounded by mortars in central Baghdad, that another person died in an attack in eastern Baghdad, that six dead bodies were discovered all across Baghdad, that four Iraqi soldiers were killed while on patrol near Kirkuk, that gunmen killed a police lieutenant and wounded two other police officers in central Baquba, that a suicide car bomber killed six or more people and wounded ten in northwestern Baghdad, that a suicide truck bomber attacked an Iraqi army base and killed 13 soldiers while wounding 42 others in Mosul, that a suicide car bomber killed one soldier and wounded eight others in Mosul, that gunmen killed seven people and wounded 16 others in southern Baghdad, that a roadside bomb wounded two people in central Baghdad, that a Katyusha rocket was fired into the Green Zone, killed five people and wounde d eight in eastern Baghdad, that gunmen murdered Colonel Akram Awad al-Omairi, commander of a rapid reaction unit outside his home in the town of Abu Saida, and that a suicide car bomb killed five people and wounded 11 north of Baghdad.

That was Sunday.

Entire piece here

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/032508A.shtml

By Paul_GA, March 25 at 12:03 pm #
(46 comments total)
Re: Re: To me, it’s obvious…

“Then sit back and watch the USA wear itself out in these futile foreign wars”

Honestly Paul, I don’t know what you’d have us do then.  The reality of our place in the world is that we are the target of terrorism, just as virtually every modern society has become.  Unless you’re advocating a Pacifist foreign policy, I can’t imagine how we could have responded differently to 9/11 than we did when we uprooted the Taliban in Afghanistan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ina2FBFZkNM

You just made me cry.

bozhidar bob balkas writes:

• “…war(s) r caused. r they studied anywhere? nowhere to my knowledge…”

Actually b. bob b…

There has been SO MUCH STUDY on this, that I suspect very few people have been able to read learn it all, or at least be aware of ALL the study that has been compiled, and over decades..even centuries, and that includes the causes.

Keep in mind that war is as old as mankind, and the reasons or causes are complex.
More importantly though, it HAS been studied enough to come up with a complex structure of laws and agreements that attempt to PREVENT it, as well as laws to be recognized in cases where it cannot be prevented.

Specifically after WWII, the Geneva Conventions allowed for the update to earlier philosophies regarding wars, such as the “Just War Doctrine” that dated back to much earlier times. The Geneva Conventions were a direct result of the horrors of WWII, and the desire to prevent such horrors ever again.

So, without a doubt, this has been studied, and one could actually invest a lifetime in doing exactly that. (many have).

The Iraq war has happened IN SPITE of those conventions/treaties/law/procedures that were established to PREVENT them, because the Dick Cheney and George Bush regime choose to violate those agreements, and wage an attack and then the occupation of Iraq. Iraq is NOT a ‘war’ in terms of what a war actually is. It is an occupation, not at all unlike the colonization of other lands and territories taken in previous wars. Actually, in prior centuries and decades, that has been a major CAUSE of war. It has been the determination on the part of one group, to acquire land or other resources possessed by another group. That is only one ‘cause’ or one component of a larger cause.

The war on, or occupation of Iraq is slightly less traditional in it’s ‘cause’ since most nations have gotten away from war for the purposes of acquiring land anyway. That has been one major change in the decades since the original establishment of the League of Nations. STILL, that hasn’t removed the desire to appropriate the RESOURCES of another nation or territory, and that is the case with Iraq. The agreed upon Laws of Nations, or the Geneva Conventions, or the Laws of War, ALL prohibit this action. However, laws are only effective if all parties agree to participate and there is no ‘incentive’ to violate the laws.

The use of military force IS ‘allowed’ but only in terms of self-defense, and the structure of the law is actually very specific in how that should be determined. Again, in the case of Iraq, all of those laws were violated by the US, and so far that has been allowed, because the US is now, and remains…(at least for the moment) the sole ‘superpower’ and wields enormous geopolitical power in terms of the global structure. In other words, contrary to the premise that ‘equals should be treated equally’ under the law, it boils down to..who has the most power, be it in terms of military or political might.

Still, my point was only to say that the CAUSES of war have indeed been extensively studied.

When the number went over 3000 I was affirmed in my estimate.  And I tied in the office pool with some dude who got all his news from the TV.  We got $200 each.  But many thought the surge would result in more US deaths, and wagered on the number going over 4000 in January or earlier.  I knew about Moqtada al-Sadr’s stand down, and guessed more correctly, knowing that it would take longer for our boys to achieve that number.  This time I picked up $500 on the pool.  The war’s been good to me.  I support the troops, and, like the vice-president, am happy that they are all volunteers, and hope to make money on their credulity. I’m voting for McCain or Hillary in the hopes of making close to a thousand dollars on the pool for the 5000 number.  Now that Moqtada is stirring that date should arrive far more quickly, and I hope to be pocketing some fabulous jing before the end of the year.  Go U.S.!  We’re number 1, and number 2, if you know what I mean.

Obama might spoil the whole thing since, being Wall Street’s boy, and since Wall Street is seeing the war now as bad for business (unless you’re an arms contractor or in the oil business) he might bring this fabulous revenue enhancer to a close.  Damn.

Suicides and attempted suicides in the thousands. 

She was Army specialist Alyssa Peterson, 27, a Flagstaff, Az., native serving with C Company, 311th Military Intelligence BN, 101st Airborne.  Alyssa was an Arabic-speaking translator.  A beautiful well educated all American girl.  She died September 15th, 2003 from what the lying-pig Bush administration called a “non hostile weapons discharge.”

A local reporter from Alyssa’s community, Kevin Elston, smelled something very rotten so he filed a FOIA request trying to get the facts.

As it came out the good soul of Alyssa was too good for Bush’s profoundly evil rules of warfare.  She objected to the methods used to interrogate the people.  In fact she, as we all have been, was horrified by the techniques the Neocon psychopaths in the Bush administration required.  She thought the service to her country was honorable and dignified reflecting the best of our values.  She didn’t know the scum that would take over control of the government at the time she signed up.

Army spokespersons for her unit (called “The Cage) have refused to describe the interrogation techniques Alyssa objected to. They say all records of those techniques have now been destroyed(isn’t it illegal to destroy such records?)

About one third of the 103,788 veterans returning from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, according to a Time mag article circa march 2007, seen at Veterans Affairs facilities between September 30, 2001 and September 30, 2005 were diagnosed with mental illness or a psycho-social disorder, such as homelessness and marital problems, including domestic violence. More than half of those diagnosed, 56%, were suffering from more than one disorder. The most common combination was post-traumatic stress disorder and depression.

In January 2008 the U.S. Army reported that the rate of suicide among soldiers in 2007 was the highest since the Army started counting in 1980. There were 121 suicides in 2007, a 20% jump over the prior year. Also, there were around 2100 attempted suicides and self-injuries in 2007.  Many suicides occur after returning home which go uncounted.

Then sit back and watch the USA wear itself out in these futile foreign wars, Marshall. No country can do it all, or do it all indefinitely. This empire will fall as all other empires fell. I’d just rather we let ourselves down gradually than “stay the course” all the way to the messy downfall.

Well Expat, I wasn’t going to say anything, being a veteran and all, also a conservative, also a supporter of the invasion, but to hear the sitting VP just so calmly throw out his so and his volunteered comment , I could say all kinds of crap about his lesbian daughter or make fun of his bad(if there is really one there)heart, but I wont because his comments will get enough said about him, that I most likely will agree with, so to all you liberals let him have it good, he deserves it. I wish his offspring had volunteered the prick deserves whatever happens to him now or in the afterlife, maybe he will come back as Usama Bin Laden’s man bitch.

Noninterventionist theory is predicated on a major fallacy: that interventionism is the cause of the world’s problems and that the U.S. would avoid being a target by not intervening.

The theory ignores the ideological aims of extremist groups whose actions aren’t related to our intervention so much as our existence.  We know this because, among other things, they’ve said so.

So while it may be obvious to you, it’s simply wrong to most of the rest of us.

...that the whole idea of American interventionist foreign policy must go the way of the dodo---no matter how “humanitarian” it may look to its advocates. This country is wearing itself to a frazzle in Iraq, and certainly, if McCain is the next president, he will reap Bush’s foul harvest: permanent decline for the USA as a major power.

^ in the last two days are Cheney’s comments: They say it all.  When told about how the majority of Americans feel about the war; his response was, “So”.  Further; when he was asked about the 4,000 dead (it’s way higher) he said, “They volunteered.” As far as I’m concerned that says everything we need to know about the state of affairs in America.  If I say any more it will be a string of the filthiest 4 letter words in the English language; over and out!

I must first commend you on your spots on Countdown. Thanks for all You say (Same for Racheal and most the others who contribute greatly to the show- Except the Newsweek guy, can’t seem to shake the ‘conventional wisedom’ at times -defending Hillary’s Lies? “Misspoke’ My Ass- LYING!)
But I have been Put off by MSNBC on numerous occasions- the ‘Democratic’ Debates- False Advertising! And Not even Keith is able to hold the Can’s feet to the Fire about undue Corp interests and the Demand for Criminal Charges to be levied, in varying Sectors of our Society. Honestly I’ve come to find most Media to be PUSSIES!
Frontline’s “Bush’s War” should be the entire Media’s War Cry- It is for most of US. Which way do you ride Horseman? The Masses Are Your Bread & Butter. Choose Carefully!
Cave Adsum, my friend!