You obviously have limited thinking powers, Shhhh…

Facts are not knowledge.  After reading the Washington Post article, why do you suppose the Chinese police did not keep the peace?  Are they so inept?  Why is there ambiguity as to what exactly was going on?  Read the entire article and it is not entirely clear the Tibetans were not incited to riot.  Reading critically is only important if there is an objective interest.

Yes, next Olympics in Israel, then the world can take tour buses to the occupied area and look at the natives.

You obviously have limited thinking powers, Douglas. Calling me dumb was stupid on your part.  I was talking about American administrations not Cuban and the attitude toward Cuba from America.

And he doesn’t need us to verify that the Dalai Lama is a holy man, his people do that. 

I gave it a try to stay our acerbic acrimony but it didn’t last very long.  You insist on being pompous and patronizing. I am not interested in enmity.  What I said stands and you can bluster all you want.

Dumb, Shhh...., there has only been ONE “administration since Batista” - Castro!

Is the Dalai Lama really “a holy man”, though? By being a political man, he is actually more of a legalist and that tends to show in some of his interpretations of Buddhism to suit his own ends and “particularly when he is responsible for the welfare of his society and culture”.

In doing so as an exile, he has done more damage to his country by being associated with the USA and its CIA than if he had been wholly independent. That was something which evolved by design and he was complicit in it, not just meekly handed into the loving arms of the CIA.

If he had been truly independent and had genuinely walked the path of non-violence as a Buddhist should, he would already have been able to reconcile with the Chinese. In that, he has failed and that is where Tibet is today as a result instead of being a fully autonomous region.

Pity that you prefer “strawmen” to real ones, though, Shhh..... can’t handle having to show respect to a real man, eh? What kind of woman does that make you, then?

I’’m not quite as ancient nor arcane as you Mr. Chalmers.  And I think your analogy of the USA and Cuba does not compare with the history of China and Tibet. It is a strawman example.  What exactly do you mean history is relevant by comparison?  Again, you castigate the whole on the rotten few.  A common tactic by you to attempt when you present no facts.  There have been several different administrations since Batista.  It is interesting that the attitude toward Cuba has not changed much in that time regardless of the political flavor of the administration.  The fact that the Dalai Lama is a holy man does not preclude him as being a political man, particularly when he is responsible for the welfare of his society and culture.  What makes you think he isn’t entitled to both positions?  You do have a rather defective habit of patronization and a secular kind of pontification.  Trying to lump cyrena and I together does not strengthen your snipe.  Just the opposite.  It shows how weak your observations are.

“...the Tibetans and Chinese do not have as close a relationship as you make out.  They have completely different cultures and religions. Conflict is noted as far back as......”

Oh, Shh...., really. History is also relevant by comparison.

The USA invaded Cuba in 1898, again in 1961, threatened a nuclear war, maintains a prison colony and a military base there today along with continuing economic sanctions. What right did or does the USA have to such aggression?

Americans felt under duress? Exactly, uhh! And they don’t want an independent Cuba (Batista, 1933 and so on...) with foreign alliances with Russia, etc. Work it out for yourself if you were Chinese. Who are the main adversaries - Russia and India, uhh?

But the Dalai Lama has brought these issues upon himself by his long association with the US government and their CIA. As I have already shown, he has confused his role as a religious leader with his role as head of a government in exile. That is not being spiritual and has an arduous cost for his people still in Tibet and elsewhere in China.

And I don’t know why you are now whining about “respect” as I have not “attacked” you, Shhh.... Getting like cyrena in your old age, eh?

http://secrettibet.rsfblog.org/archive/2007/01/16/h istory-of-tibet-before-the-chinese-invasion-of-1949.html
History of Tibet before the Chinese Invasion of 1949 and attempted kidnapping of Dalai Lama in 1959.
Perhaps you are right Douglas Chalmers and my understanding not as vast as apparently yours is, but the Tibetans and Chinese do not have as close a relationship as you make out.  They have completely different cultures and religions.  Conflict is noted as far back as 4000 BC.  In addition to the site noted above, also found in Wikipedia references
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tibet
George Van Driem and Peter Bellwood, Peter & Colin Renfrew.  Also the Tibetans inhabited the plateau about a half a million years ago.  Peace treaties have been attempted several times apparently testifies to the enmity between the two countries. The “royal” marriage to which you refer was refused by the Tibetans and the Chinese forced themselves into the culture. 

I am not sure what your defense of China is all about, and I would not mind being informed but I would appreciate more respect on your part as I am not attacking you in any way or your knowledge.

The ostensible fact that the Dalai Lama had an association with the CIA, could be credible in view of the alienation between Tibet and China and the USA and China.  You seem to imply that was a bad thing?  That China does not trust the Dalai Lama is also natural but it was brought on by their occupation of Tibet for that to have happened.  It a push-pull situation. 

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/world/jan-j une08/tibet_3-24.html

Protests Continue in Tibet segment of News Hour on March 25th. 
Donald Lopez –Univ. Michigan
Jeffrey Bader – Brookings Institution
Abraham Lustgarden - Fortune Mag.  China’s Great Train

Lopez.  Massive and economic inequalities.  Bader.  Anniversary of ignited but long term resentments about how Tibetans are ruled by Chinese. 

Lustgarden – Tibetan dominated the ethnic Tibetan.  Old historical buildings torn down, and outlying areas built up with modern Chinese building.  Promises from China of economic development but not materialized/

Lopez – Tibet and China have different language, different food, different religion, different social structure.  Tibetans never considered themselves to be Chinese, and Chinese never considered Tibetans to be Han.

Chinese wants stability and not a source of unrest.  But needs a serious dialogue with the Dalai Lama.  Chinese do not trust the Dalai Lama.  Needs a program to build the trust.  Otherwise no stability in Tibet. 

No doubt that a boycott of the Olympics by the world community will embarrass the Chinese and Tibetans will suffer as a result.  Chinese has to cease demonization of the Dalai Lama then progress may begin.

Quote: “ I do not think much can stop the reprobate China in utterly destroying Tibet.  There is no love lost between the two countries.  They have very little if anything in common...”

You are quite wrong there, Shhh… China doesn’t “destroy” its own and there has been a long history of close ties with Tibet. They have a lot in common and once their relationship was very close with royal family intermarriage, etc.

China has a right to refuse the Dalai Lama as they are as aware as anyone that he had a long association with the CIA to their detriment. You really have no understanding of their 1,000’s years history.....

This is absolutely correct, Patrick. It is actually people in the West projecting their guilt and shame upon china which is the real issues here......

I’ve been told, there are 3 types of people:

1.  People who make things happen.

2.  People who watch things happen.

3.  People who ask “what happened”.

China becomes more free every day and the U.S more oppressive.

The lone Chinese man’s standoff was a media triumph, if ever there was one.  The picture of that one human being was plastered the world over.  The Chinese knew they were being watched.  However, a similar stand was taken by a lone American girl in Israel standing up for Palestinians, and she was mowed down.  Killed.  No pictures taken.  No repercussions for Israel!  So sometimes knowledge can make a difference in a larger scope, if it gets glamorous photojournalistic help.  What will change the situation today in Tibet?  The Dalai Lama has offered to talk with the Chinese but they have refused him audience.  The fact that he is a holy man ought not to be a criterion, however, to stop the decimation and appropriation of a people.  The fact that he is a man, a hu-man ought to be enough.  I do not think much can stop the reprobate China in utterly destroying Tibet.  There is no love lost between the two countries.  They have very little if anything in common.

Since I signed the petition to allow more foreign reporters in to Lhasa I wonder if the public response had anything to do with opening up that entry as reported in the BBC news today?  Signing a petition is somewhat better than just “knowing” about something that is wrong than not doing anything at all.  Most of the world simply does not know what they can do about genocide or oppression.

Boycotting the Olympics will only exacerbate the problem for Tibet.  Thinking about it was just a fantasy on my part because of the frustration of the struggle the Tibetan’s have had. The plight of the Dalai Lama is about a half century old.  Killing monks and other Tibetans is unconscionable.  Somewhere between the 19 as reported by the Chinese and the 140 said by the Tibetans whatever is the truth is that many people too many.  That mankind resorts to killing one another is a vestige of our brute and uncivilized nature. How long does it take for humanity to learn to have absolute personal regard for one another?  Now that one is a rhetorical question.

Knowlege does make a difference.  When the world watched the lone Chinese man’s standoff with tanks in Tianaman Square, China was forced to back off some of it’s more restrictive policies.  It realized that the tactics of oppression may cause you to loose business partners and much needed markets.  With enough knowlege of the attrocities in Tibet that businesses and nations adjust their relations with China, change may happen before the Tibetan culture is utterly destroyed.

Peace to the World and Blessings to the Dalai Lama!  I’m opposed to most organized religion but a culture that can birth that holy man should not be wiped out by a monstrous machine like china.

The consequences of mere knowledge without action

Not really asking rhetorically, but what does just the mere knowledge about atrocities and genocide contribute in reality to inhibit, prevent, obstruct, interrupt, terminate such from happening?  While it is slightly more than interesting, and inasmuch as most sufficient bodies of persons who are able to make a difference do not become involved, but maintain an apathy, what kind of action does such knowledge encourage or propel enough individuals to make a difference?  In otherwords, does just knowing a thing, actually do anything?  And if not, what do you think can be done to change that dilemma?

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/04/23/google-china-a nd-gen.html

And so began the physical genocide. In 1950, the People’s Liberation Army “peacefully liberated” Tibet, something akin to saying that Adolf Hitler was a good friend of European Jewry. From 1950 to date, 1.2 million Tibetans have died as a result of mass slaughter, imprisonment, or starvation; 7.5 million Han Chinese have migrated into historic Tibet, now appended to Sichuan, Yunan, and Gansu provinces, and the more recently chartered province of Qinhai; over three thousand Buddhist monasteries have been razed and their cultural properties destroyed or plundered; and iconic religious leaders—the recognized figureheads of traditional Tibetan culture—have been forced into exile, imprisoned, executed, or kidnapped.

Oops, I should have said “concave” instead of convex mirrors. Getting as bad as Hillary here today, uhh......

They are easily manufactured and are installed at ground level in a field.

No, Shh..., as usual there is ANOTHER agenda at play here. The mining corporations are desperate to make as much as they can from their uranium resources before Nuclear Fission becomes redundant.

That is, Nuclear Fusion is expected to replace Fission in about the next 30-40 years. It is far safer and doesn’t use uranium in the process. Comparison http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/story/chapter13.html

Quote: “The EU has set itself the goal of constructing the first (nuclear) fusion power plant by 2035...” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDAZsPkTkMM and check link too.

In the meantime, Solar Thermal power stations are already being constructed as they become increasingly cost-efficient. The concept of digging it up or chopping it down is about to come to an ignominious end!

Solar Thermal is simple technology and the latest method is to use rows of water pipes heated by convex mirrors http://www.solargenix.com/company.cfm or try http://solarheatpower.veritel.com.au/mainmenu.html

Mr. Chalmers, what do you say are the implications of what you have brought to our attention?  I read both articles you provided about the partnership between Britain and France.  Do you think the “new generation power stations” will present a danger to “wreck the planet permanently?” Do you think there would be enough energy generated by the renewables, solar power and wind power, to provide the energy needed by the world?  I only ask because I have heard interviews on NPR (not exactly the final word, to be sure, but at least the topic is on the table) that says the new nuclear power stations are the best way to solve the global warming and energy problem.  I appreciate your post here as I think each and every person in the world has a stake in what happens to the world.

Just what does “disappeared” mean, ‘you are a liar’? Refugees, migrating workers within China, travel to Nepal or India?

By bozhidar bob balkas, March 23: “...one could have expected that france also would condemn china for its ‘illegal’ and immoral invasion/annexation of tibet. however, the west led by us, nearly always condemns crimes of ....israel, us, uk, italy, canada, australia...”

Jealousy! Britain made it into Tibet (invaded 1904) but France didn’t, uhh. Oh, the frailties of “settler society” and their colonial dreams.........

Now the evil twins from NATO are going to use the excuse of “build(ing) power stations that do not rely on fossil fuels” to wreck the planet permanantly.......... UK and France ‘plan nuclear deal’ - http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5h97DFX3u6aPDBg uS31NkPqG21ArQ

Britain and France to take nuclear power to the world - Britain and France are to sign a deal to construct a new generation of nuclear power stations and export the technology around the world in an effort to combat climate change.

The pact is to be announced at the “Arsenal summit” next week when prime ministers Gordon Brown and Nicolas Sarkozy will meet at the Emirates stadium in north London.... http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/mar/22/nucl earpower.energy1?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

Shh.., how would you know whether I go off with a bang, uhh? Just think of that nuclear disarmament “peace symbol”.....

Why does everything have to have political ramifications?

Last time I checked the Olympics was a sporting event.

It is all hyperbole and we all know no body is going to stay at away from the Olympics, especially the Chinese, and you too.  Course if you go, you would be the nuclear WMD, I am sure.

You are living in the past, Shhh....... and still just looking for ways to excuse your possession and use of nuclear WMD’s .....as any ‘loyal’ American should, uhh.

I like your last idea!  Do you think those who can afford to go won’t?  Also even if a significant number of sport fans stay away in protest, don’ you think the Chinese wouldn’t just round up thousands of people from the population to fill those seats just for show to deceive the world again?

You are being fed BS by the Chinese gov’t. How does it taste?
China has committed genocide it Tibet at the level of Stalin’s pograms during his heyday.  More than 50% of the native Tibetan population has ?disappeared? in the last 25 yrs.  Tibet is no more.  The larger tourist destination temples are manned by ‘fake monks’ of han chinese decent.  The Chinese just can’t seem to get over the fact that TIBET ACTUALLY HAS A BETTER HISTORICAL CLAIM FOR RULING CHINA, THAN CHINA DOES FOR TIBET.

As another poster suggested, our athletes should attend the games but carry Tibetan flags.

Everyone else should stay home and let the Chinese eat thier new stadiums.

You don’t know much about Native Americans and their hard fought battles to operate a few casinos on their own sovereign land either.

Be careful of what you hear or read in the media.

Yes, politically motivated, Awam Khas, and timed exactly for the elections in Taiwan which could have been upset by news of riots in Tibet. As it turned out, “Its the economy, stupid!” was the main imperative and voters saw much more to be happy about with future cross-straits relationships with the PRC in mainland China.

The USA thus loses its offshore lapdog and any chance of ever militarily pressuring China again. It is ironic that the KMT was historically the ant-Communits force in China and Mao’s nemesis. In the end, it was their business people who have helped put China back on track..........

Opposition Kuomintang presidential candidate Ma Ying-jeou (馬英九) yesterday won a landslide victory over his ruling Democratic Progressive Party rival Frank Hsieh (謝長廷) in Taiwan’s presidential election, with a significant margin of more than 2.2 million votes, which won him the bid to become the next president of the nation. The victory wins back for the KMT the presidency it relinquished for 8 years....... http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php? id=627289&lang=eng_news&cate_img=logo_taiwan&ca te_rss=TAIWAN_eng

Beijing was likely to be pleased with Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) presidential candidate Ma Ying-jeou’s (馬英九) election as the nation’s next president yesterday, a victory China hopes will bring the sides closer to renewing bilateral talks, a leading Chinese academic said.

Beijing suspended talks in part because of Taipei’s refusal to recognize Beijing’s “one China policy” under which Taiwan is considered a part of China.... http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2008/0 3/23/2003406752

Full China Olympics coverage in English http://english.cri.cn/3126/2007/04/25/Zt45@220326.htm

Organizers of the Beijing Olympics said that the torch relay of this summer’s games will go ahead as planned despite concerns over security in Tibet following a recent riot in this region...... The Beijing Olympic torch will be lit by the sun’s rays in ancient Olympia, Greece, on March 24, according to the Beijing Organizing Committee for the Games of the XXIX Olympiad...

Tickets on the boycott bus? Not for me - Australia will not boycott Games: I KNOW it’s the politically correct bus to be jostling for a seat on at the moment, but I think it’s a bit rich to call on Australian athletes to boycott the Beijing Olympics in light of reports of escalated violence in the Tibetan capital Lhasa......

Ultimately, it is incredibly hypocritical to target our athletes and not big business or the interests of our state and federal governments. Where are the calls to stop our iron ore being shipped to China and turned into steel and shipped back here as fast as you can say “hey presto”? Where are the calls to stop Chinese ships bringing boatloads of trinkets, courtesy of the new deep-lane shipping channel being gauged into Port Phillip Bay (Melbourne)? http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/tracee-hutchison /2008/03/21/1205602653982.html?page=fullpage

No doubt the US government has these ‘imperialistic’ ways that you reference here. No denying that, though I know that most Americans do not approve.

As for China never bending in front of Western pressure, that’s fine as well. However, the pressure that concerns us has to do with the horrific history of human rights abuses, and that’s not a US thing. Actually, the US has it’s own overwhelming violations of the same.

So, as long as China continues the human rights abuses, there will be pressure from the International Community..not necessarily the US or the West in general.

It may also be true that China doesn’t ‘need’ the Olympics, but I have a feeling that China’s oppressive government feels differently.

There has been great effort from China in the past decade, to reclaim the long held global Empire status from earlier centuries, and that seems very likely. But, these contining atrocities of human rights violations are gonna put a whammy in those plans. NOT because of the US necessarily, but because of the combined pressure from the international community.

Best Revenge is no Revenge. All free loving countries athletes must go to the Olympics and show there solidarity with Tibetian people by showing Tibetian flag along with there country flag, during the Olympics “opening and closing cermonies,"along with Tibetian color arm bands. This is freedom of speech.

In the words of the VP Cheney, “So?” The leadership of the US are hypocrites and the quicker someone points that out the better.  Yes, we can boycott the Olympics.  And yes, we should exert pressure by not buying Chinese made products as much as is possible.

The U.S. can’t boycott the Olympics, the U.S. govt. owes China big bucks and the Chinese would be quick to point out what hypocrites the U.S. leadership is.

However, we and citizens of other countries can hurt China everytime we shop.  Be discerning.

For those barking mad about boycotting Olympics and hallucinating that they somehow have this wonderful leverage to pressurize us. I would like to inform you that your bubble just burst. Sorry!

National territorial integrity is more vital than being the center of the world’s attention for two weeks. China will be upset if the Olympics were watered down by a boycott of individual athletes. BUT WE WILL GET OVER IT. WE DO NOT NEED OLYMPICS TO VALIDATE US AS A COUNTRY. If Westerners think they could lead us by the nose because of Olympics, that just reveals how ignorant they are. The reason China has this thorny problem that is Taiwan is precisely because of US intervention.  WE WILL NEVER ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN AGAIN. China will NEVER bend in front of Western pressure. Never!

Quit your imperialistic ways! You have already earned an atrocious reputation for meddling in Iraq and the Middle East. Why do you want to attract more hatred towards you? Is it your nature to attract hatred?

China has a long history of human Rights violations- Perhaps WE to should consider boycotting this Olympics. Let’s hit China where it hurts (like they have US, with their cheap crap products) in the pocket book. Why should we help their economy when they have undermined Ours ( thanks to some unethical Inc’s here). I would suggest a alternative Olympics be held for the sake of the atheletes who have trained for the last 4 yrs (or more). But by not giving China the Revenues they may begin to listen to the rest of the World that their actions towards Tibet is no longer tolerable. WE should be Barring All their Products from OUR shores/stores- but of course the ‘Financial Wizards’ have left use in no position since we are now major Debtors to the Cheinese -Economic Treason which should be investigated & prosectued.They have made US Indentured Slave for their Profit making ventures!

The only mistake the Chinese government made in this Tibetan incident is to bar journalists from Tibet. As this gives some Western journalists the chance to basically cook up sensational reports of what they think happened in this turmoil.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Chinese government cracked down on the “protesters”. But this apparently did not prevent biased Western journalists from reporting exactly that untruth. Plus, those Tibetan monks are not demonstrators or protesters. Who can tell me whether protesters have to take long knives with their hands in your country? Do protesters have to burn shops, markets and burn a girl alive? Who can tell me whether protesters have to rob banks and hit the head of innocent people with bricks in your countries? And these protesters get portrayed as repressed victims in BBC and CNN?

I know for a long time that main stream Western media harbours extreme hostility and bias towards China. But still, this took me quite by surprise.

Done!

Perhaps you did not know that all foreign journalists are being barred or expelled from Tibetan areas. Thousands of Chinese troops are inundating Tibet as China crushes the demonstrations going on in Tibet to make sure no outsiders can see.

You can speak up now to urge the Beijing 2008 Olympic Organizing Committee and the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs to obey their own laws and allow foreign journalists access to Tibet. Click here to add your name to those of us who are taking at least this action:
http://actionnetwork.org/campaign/media_freedom

Kicking out journalists reduces the information the rest of the world gets about what is really happening in Tibet, but it also removes independent witnesses, thereby giving a soldier or police officer one less reason not to use violence to suppress the protests. Tibetans know this, and are afraid: as one Tibetan in Lhasa told the BBC, “We are all very worried about the lack of western people and journalists in and around Lhasa.”

The obstruction of journalists also defies new regulations passed in 2006 that were supposed to give foreign journalists expanded freedoms in the run-up to and during the 2008 Olympics in Beijing.

Not “libre” but “liberte” - two different meanings, uhh........

Tibet & Gaza “libre”

“Today’s rally is to fight against the oppression of Tibetans by the Chinese,” said one Vietnamese demonstrator who preferred to remain anonymous.  “China cannot do anything they want in Tibet. They need the support of foreign governments,” she said, stressing that the violent clashes in Lhasa and neighboring provinces don’t just represent a problem for Tibetans; rather, “it’s a global issue.”

Agreed, China can’t just do anything it wants in Tibet. After all, the USA is already doing whatever it pleases in Iraq and Afghanistan. But it is ironic that people are ignoring what the Tibetans first did to the ordinary Chinese citizens living and working in Tibet. That is not being genuinely interested in human rights.

But the question of European + US interference is something that goes back to the 1800’s in China - as well as in Tibet, India and Vietnam. In the end, it was the cause of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor as their greedy manipulations of Asia backfired badly. China won’t tolerate that kind of interference ever again.

France’s Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner is a rank opportunist and, along with their president, Sarko the Neocon, they are only too willing to do whatever they can to tip things in their favor. Using unrest over the Tibet issue is only the most recent. They have already toured the Middle East selling nuclear reactors to friend and foe alike in the past few months, uhh.

A boycott of Olympics ceremony? France raises idea, then backs off - http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/19/asia/react.php - and also note the link to the article about the forthcoming elections in Taiwan.......

Ma is the front-runner, but his 20-point lead in opinion polls has dropped into single digits as opponent Frank Hsieh mounts a fierce final-stage rally. On Friday, Hsieh’s campaign unveiled a new TV ad showing Tibetan monks staging a candlelight vigil to protest the Chinese clampdown in their homeland...... “When China is cracking down on Tibet ... the Ma camp is drawing ever closer to China,” the ad says.