Quite right, magouche, in my opinion as well, that death as is commonly perceived is not the necessary end, and everything that is material is unendingly recycled from form to another.  I do have a question though, as to whether thoughts get recycled in the same way as well?

Shenonymous:

Obviously I do not express myself as well as you do.  However, my post of March 7, 3:09 PM,  contained:  a.  my personal opinions,  b. rhetorical ruminations about possible alternatives to religious viewpoints with which I cannot agree, and c. what I thought was a slight redaction of a small part of your statement.  The latter in no way was meant as an improvement or as a criticism.  I was in agreement with your posts.  I presumed we were on the same page.

As to “all ending death”, I believe that death is not necessarily “the end”, based on what we see in nature and how everything that is, remains, in recycled form. 

So yes, people “have made up this story about God” as you said, and other stories too, before that, about “things that may rescue us when in the dark”  because of lack of knowledge and because of fear.  And fear of death and nothingness appears to be at the top of the list, in my view.

I would be honored to have some “black” blood in my heritage, however, I was not so lucky.  That being said, it is a paltry, pitiful comment made March 8 11:40 pm which is typical of that contemptible mind.  Do all the posters on TD have such a racist perspective?  I can’t see how swimming in such swill could have even a fraction of a second’s worth of such perverse amusement, but obviously there are such gargoyles. 

And since I have been goaded into making an abrogating comment on the topic of racism on this forum, I will also take the time to reply to magouche’s “agreement” March 7 with an earlier comment of mine and say that “all ending” and “death” are redundant terms and that not all of us fear death in the implied way you say.  Further, if “We do not know…”, then we cannot say anything coherent or true, whether it is about salvation, heaven, hell, or god.  Belief is one thing, knowledge is another.  Faith contains the element of doubt.  Equipped with knowledge is the best way to conduct “all our encounters with everyone and everything.”  And I see that I carelessly slipped an element of personal opinion in my statement so I will restate it as a rhetorical interrogative:  Haven’t we have made up this story about God because we cannot face the fact that our lives and our deaths are inconsequential?  Isn’t it our arrogance and hubris that have made up this story to placate our evolved insolence and petulance and ultimate denial of our own responsibility and morality?

“...come to believe in Him at some point during their lives…

How can they if She is Black???

Shenonymous wrote:

“We have made up this story about God because we cannot face the fact that our lives and our deaths are inconsequential.  It is our arrogance and hubris that have made up this story….. “

I agree but would amend the beginning of the second sentence as follows:

“it is our fear of an all ending death that (has) made up this story…”

And for those who have all the answers here is my two cents worth:

We do not know whether we will really be “saved” or will go to “heaven”, or worse,  “hell”,  because we really cannot fully know g-d and we should not even write or speak the name because a life force this strong is unknowable and cannot be named or qualified.  It would be blasphemous.

No one can say g-d exists, No one can say g-d does not exist.

I believe the evidence of the life force is all around us and in everything, including ourselves.  Wouldn’t it be better to believe this and respect this and let this “faith” carry over in all our encounters with every one and every thing?  Do we not “worship” best in that way?  And leave the rest to you-know-who?

I apologize for putting you on a perhaps warm seat, but let’s see Maani, since you proposed by implication that you knew the mind of God by saying that He allows (wants) us to make free choices, then you need to show where you get this idea.  Not me.  I just simply asked if you use the Bible for your gift of God-mind reading?

Perhaps need is the right word, why would I change my question?  It is not clear that the Abrahamic God does not “need” anything.  It might be clear to you, but it is not clear to everyone.

But for the sake of clarity, I will go along with your assumption that there is a God.

Unfortunately the churches are called Houses of “Worship” so if we appeal to tradition, and if we can say that churches are not wrong, then God desires to be worshipped.  For if that is not true, then what are all these millions upon millions of people doing?  Are they going against the desire of God? And if they are, why aren’t you telling them that?

Where in the Bible does it say that God desires to be loved?  Credited?  Acknowledged?  I truly would like to know.

I do not have to prove that it is not in the Bible that God does not want freethinkers, since it is you who are proposing these attributes, if, that is, you are using the Bible as evidence or basis for your preferences.

Why does gratitude come into the equation at all?  The equation being that God created humans and therefore humans owe something to God because they have a wonderful life?  Does that apply to all humans or only some?  Those with money or those without?  Those with leisure time or those that don’t?

Where in the Bible does it say that God would “like” appreciation for anything including sacrificing his progeny?  Huge request or not, as I think it is a huge request, where you do not. 

While it is true that I do not believe in the God you propose, it does not follow that my questions are moot.  I have legitimate questions.  Since most of the world is driven by beliefs in the God of Abraham: Christian, Jew, and Muslim, and the world is at the mercy of these religions, including most Americans, then we have a duty to question the premises and consequences of the beliefs of those who make statements on behalf of this God.  Because the consequences have been staggering!

It would seem that you might have some obligation to show how your comments have some reasonable basis.  While the scriptures are expected to be believed with out question, man, and you are a man, is not owed that same privilege. 

Simply and obviously He didn’t create man to believe in Him and we ought to ask why He didn’t if that is what He really wants?  Why go through all this mess of human supplication, sin and salvation.  What possible ultimate reason would a benevolent God have to do that?  Why the double dealing of giving free will when the outcome is to be what God apparently wishes anyway.  Why would we have the need to determine our own lives when in the end we are to fly to heaven whether we want to or not.  Now it would be moot to ask who would not want to?  We are here talking about ultimate choices.  Why it is all a ruse.  Why would God even want free thinkers or anything at all.  Isn’t the universe enough?  We have made up this story about God because we cannot face the fact that our lives and our deaths are inconsequential.  It is our arrogance and hubris that have made up this story to placate our evolved insolence and petulance and ultimate denial of our own responsibility and morality.  Feigning ignorance is not allowed.  If you don’t have all the theological answers, then it is incumbent on you, a minister of God, to find them!  I don’t know to which respected theologians and scholars you are referring.  But I shouldn’t have to go any farther than you.

Shenonymous:

Oops!  Forgive me!  I’m not sure why I misnamed you.  My bad.

Peace.

Thank you Maani, but this is not Louise, this is Shenonymous. We have met before and Nabih commends you very highly.  I do not know who Louise is, nor do I think she knows who I am.

I will now read your post

Louise:

I can only posit what God “wants” by observation of what “is.”  That is, if God had “wanted” automatons and “pre-determined faith adherents,” then every single human would believe in God from birth, or come to believe in Him at some point during their lives.  But, quite obviously, not all do.

Tell me what passages of the Bible suggest that God does NOT want “free thinkers.”

As for “Why would a deity need worshipped?  Why would a God need anything?,” I think “need” is the wrong word.  Clearly, God does not “need” anything. But if we proceed from the assumption that there is a God (which I am doing), then the question should be “Why would God want to be worshipped?”  (And even “worshipped” may be strong; I prefer “loved,” “credited,” “acknowledged,” even “appreciated”.)

That also is simple.  God created us (i.e., that is the premise from which we are working here). Thus, we “owe” God gratitude for having done so.  As well, in the Christian tradition, Jesus’ went to His (innocent) death in “payment” for the sins of every single person who has ever lived or ever will live. So God would “like” (but does not “need”) appreciation for having sacrificed His only progeny for all of us.  Not exactly a huge request, in my book, given the sacrifice made.

Of course, if you do not believe in God, and do not believe in the sacrifice of Christ, then all of this is moot.  But you are asking me why I, as a Christian and a minister, made the comments I did.

If God had “needed” every person who ever lived to believe in Him, then He simply would have created us that way.  But He did not.  He created us with the free will not ONLY to determine our own lives, but even to accept or reject His existence.  Thus, He de facto “wants” free thinkers and not automatons.

Finally, I do not pretend to have answers to every theological question that you could ask.  So queries like “What will souls experience in heaven” is not something that I (or, indeed, even most respected theologians and scholars) can answer.

Feel free to pick my brain (and spirit) if you like, and if I believe I can provide a supportable and useful answer, I will do so.

Peace.

Without any intention whatsoever Maani, to be disrespectful or flippant of your status as a man of the cloth, because I seriously want to know, because I assuredly have a great deal of respect for your comments and powers of logic, if I may ask, how exactly do you know what God wants or doesn’t want ?  What leads you to believe God wants free thinkers, and not the pre-determined faith adherents?  Have you not imposed your own logic on the wants and not wants of God?  Where do you get this esoteric information?  What book do you use to get your religious information?  The Bible?  Is the Bible to be believed literally or figuratively?  If literally, then there is much there that says God does not want free thinkers.  If figuratively, then any interpretation is just as good as any other and there is no religious truth.  God has rules and regulations and needs.  The God of the Bible needs to be worshipped.  Why would a deity need worshipped?  Why would a God need anything?  Why would a God want all these by comparison puny humans as what? God-fodder?  In a figurative way of putting it, sitting around Heaven all day gushing over His Greatness?  What exactly will souls experience in Heaven?  If there is any answer at all, then there is no freewill or freethinking.  What is wrong with a shopping mall shop to let one choose a religion?  People really do that without a shopping mall anyway.  Especially those in the Protestant forms of Christianity.  People are always changing from one denomination to another.  They are quite fickle. 
To: a human being – If anything is ever found, it is exactly that which was wanted.

Absolute peace, if it is at all possible.

Doug:

Still don’t agree with you re your interpretation of Obama’s comments on the Sermon on the Mount, but I do agree re the rest.

As an aside, I think Obama’s logo looks more like the AT&T;logo.  Could it be because Obama accepted campaign contributions from them?  [Full disclosure: Hillary also took campaign contributions from the telecomm industry, including AT&T;.]

But, of course, AT&T;is not a “special interest,” now, are they?.  LOL.

Peace.

Put another way, Maani, the result of choosing “free will” is the KARMA which the human race now faces….. global warming, nuclear war, etc etc…..

“I can do what I want” is what free will amounts to, Maani.

Freedom is becoming consciously connected with the Universal Mind of the Creator of the Universe - and REALIZING what you really are and all of your true potential.

The reason the human race exists is still something that people have no understanding of - and that includes ALL of your stupid religions, uhh.

the “laws of god” are the laws of Karma, ‘a human being’ - and nothing else.

Maani is correct about “free will” which is why the human race will most probably come to and end sometime soon….....

But does anyone understand the difference between “free will” and FREEDOM?

Theer is NO faith in religion, maani, and there cannot be any religion in true FAITH, uhh.

One is the laws of man (priests included, men or women) and the other is The Force!

Well, the followers of Barack Obama and The Ring cetrtainly are, Maani.

“Follow me… for I am the way” has morphed into “Yes you can”  and “change” which sounds like the usual permissive do-what-you-like with no goal for the future except to let BO use you as a doormant to his entry to the White House - which will then become the ‘black’ house, I guess…....

But don’t forget that BO also ridiculed Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount which he derided as “...a passage that is so radical that it is doubtful whether our own Defense Department would survive its application” !!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPUe6T8RVXs

rylly:

“In a way, I’m thankful for that because it set me against religion where I formerly tolerated it.”

Does this mean you are happy to be intolerant?

Peace.

You’re so right.  Religion has gotten too invasive and domineering, growing more preposterous each year.
In a way, I’m thankful for that because it set me against religion where I formerly tolerated it .
Faith is so far from what religion is pushing, their control and greed is near peak levels, bound to fall and that is good.

A recent study also states that believers are changing to non-believers in fair numbers now too.  The more outrageous the Intelligent Design ‘ers’ get in their attempts to deride science, the more their religion is exposed for its ignorance.  This is hardly improving their lot, but is changing public opinion handily.
Faith in the purity and goodness of mankind, that is being hampered and hogtied by brutal religious regimes, may grow into a revolution whose time has come.

Let’s not forget nihilism, remembering, of course,  the rejection of spirituality and morality doesn’t necessarily mean the rejection of ethics.

GC:

As a minister, I teach (and it is not original to me) that:  “Religion is about laws, regulations and behavior; Faith is about a relationship with God” (and, if one is Christian, with Christ).

There is certainly a place within faith for “religion.”  However, I believe that much, if not most, of the problem we see in the world today is that there is far too much “religion” and not nearly enough “faith.”  And, sadly, many of the leaders of the three Abrahamic faiths (and not just the extremists) are culpable here, teaching “religion” rather than faith.  That is, they are more focused on “laws and behavior” than on helping people discover their faith (which, indeed, is from the inside out) and nurture it.

Indeed, this seems to be one of (if not the major) reasons why so many people are “moving around” re faith and religion: the one they were raised in or were originally brought to was not satisfying their need for FAITH rather than religion; i.e. it left them feeling spiritually “empty,” but “put-upon” re laws and behavior.

Again, there IS a place in faith for “religion.”  But the former MUST precede the latter, and take precedence over it at all times.

Peace.

a human being:

Thank you for this.  It is lovely.

You mention “free will.”  I have always believed that the ultimate expression of free will is the right to accept or reject the very God that give it to us.  God does not want “automatons” who are “programmed” to believe in Him (for what would such pre-programmed belief be worth to Him?), but rather allows us to make the choice freely.  Thus, in an ironic twist, He wants “free thinkers” and not some kind of “pre-determined” faith.

Peace.

Jesse:

“I covered this topic the day it came out, and I’m surprised that more of the major news outlets didn’t feature the Pew Survey since it indicates some major changes in Americans’ attitudes toward religion.”

Actually, EVERY major news outlet - The NY Times, Boston Globe, L.A. Times, Chicago Tribune, Wall Street Journal, CNN et al - covered this story, and their websites all featured links to the Pew poll.

Peace.

It would seem to me that the predominate religion of this country is:  GLORIOUS REAGANITES EDIFYING EVERY DOLLAR (G.R.E.E.D.).

Gramma, your concepts are always spot on!

Spirituality is from the inside out..

What I’ve run into and have participated in, is in looking for the sources of one’s own spirituality “off” the path layed out for the mainstream religions of catholicism, jewishness or protestant. Reading of, and traveling to other areas of the world where other religions exist side by side with other religions not prevalent here in the states gives one an understanding that even though there are divisions amongst just about all, all are connected by the human thread of existence. It is our experience of the world, or “worlds”, which defines each of us and we try and make sense of those experiences against the backdrop of whatever is known by those around us. It is all about interpretation of those experiences to the self.
Instead of listening to others “tell” us what this experience means, or that experience means, we’re beginning to understand that many who profess to “know what God means” are just peeing in the wind. It is up to every person to find their meanings and it is also possible that some will not find this but maybe it is about the journey rather than a specific point.
I’m sure for some it may be in the community of “church” but others need to go their own way; and others need to recognize they have the same right as those which opt for “community” of “church” and a laid out path.
Those which profess to know “God’s will” and speak to intolerance and taking of life; this is more about this person’s path than for others to follow. A coward will convince others to kill while staying under their bed at home.

Are folks abandoning their faith, or their affiliation with a culturally skewed version of the original?

Yeah, thankfully we have been a more tolerant country, although the media would have you believe otherwise. This tolerance has allowed people to explore different life paths. Although, tolerance does not always equate fair treatment, and that point should be stressed.

As an adherent to different schools of philosophy and traditional cultural faiths, I feel it is now very viable to be multi-enamored with more than one idea of metaphysics and reality. In fact, I think that might be the more health approach these days. Dogma and strict following of rigid faith is pretty ridiculous to me.

A lot of people would probably feel connections with their genuine cultural faith if they were just to look into them. If nothing else, every religion’s mythology has some significance to the intellect. In particular, I’m partial to norse mythology and mithras, but the Greeks and Gauls have really interesting ideas as well.

If we could all be a little more connected to traditional thought with a modern skeptical philosophical core, the world would be a better place. Know your history, folks. It’s good for you.

All the different religions to choose from… same shit, different pot.