Ron Paul anyone?

<<War means money. War in Iraq means oil.>>

Yeah, war means *spending* money.  The war has cost far more than we’ve made.  Iraq’s oil industry is state owned, not US owned, and they’re producing less than before the war.  So the main problem with your money/oil conspiracy theory is that the facts contradict its logic altogether.

Protecting the oil is of absolute necessity because it’s the engine that supports the Iraqi government, law enforcement, military, and rebuilding efforts.  They would, of course, be foolish not to protect it.

Maani, Thats your opinion.

This country needs fresh ideas and faces as the old ones such as Hillary promise more of the same old government with the same old lobbys in charge.

I agree.  If Rons name is on the ballot I’m there for him.

Felicity:

Hmmm...Isn’t Obama the one being compared with JFK? Can’t say as how your little history review here does him any favors…

Peace.

Re: By Louise, February 27 at 7:21 am #

The fact remains, the better choice is to see this through.  We *may* pull this off.  That’s as good a chance as we get, and it’s the best chance we have, so the choice is clear.

Don’t worry.  In spite of all the democratic rhetoric about ending the occupation whomever becomes president will, in no way, precipitously withdraw US troops from Iraq----the US will be there until a stable Iraqi government is established and proves itself capable of maintaining order.  McCain is right----the US will be in Iraq for a looooooooong time.  Ain’t presidential campaigns great-----why you could float several very large hot air balloons simultaneously!!!

In 1963 the Kennedy Administration backed a coup overthrowing Iraq’s existing government and replacing it with the Baath Party.  Armed to the teeth, courtesy of us, provided by the CIA with lists of thousands of suspected ‘lefties’ the Baathists (including Sadaam) carried out its bloodbath.

Iraq was again on our ‘page’ and American, UK and other interests, including Mobil, Bechtel, and BP were free to conduct business. Who says history doesn’t repeat itself.

There is no better choice. We’re damned if we do, and we’re damned if we don’t!

Maybe that’s what millions of people around the world who marched in protest against this war were trying to tell us ... before we proved we are indeed, the fools who rush in where angels fear to tread!

So here we are. Stuck between a bad choice and a possibly worse choice. And either choice can be described with either adjective.

Were we all as capable of removing ourselves from the immediacy of pain and sorrow as the politicians who debated then chose this war, we could comfortably continue on, comfortably choosing to decide not to decide. But we’re not.

Yet, in spite of everything, we still seem content to let the politicians who by their action, daily assure us they are grossly incompetent, continue on ... continuing on.

Come to think of it, there is one other choice. Mr. Bush and his friends knew full well when they created the marketing of this war, our military was unprepared to handle World War Three. But they and their corporate buddies already had a functioning plan in place to cover the gap. Their private Mercenaries, affectionately referred to as “The Private Contractors.”

Well here’s a thought. Since they love war, let them fight it. Bring our military home, to defend the homeland.

Oh, but there’s one catch. Who will pay them the ten to twenty times more than we pay our military? Well, who pays them now? WE DO! So it comes back to the same thing. We’re damned if we do, damned if we don’t.

Obviously there is only one solution. The private Mercenaries have to find “private” funding.

How long would the Greed and Oligarchy and Perversion that typifies our self-righteous, right-wing folks on the right side of the GOP stand for that? Not for one minute! They are in the business of making profit by looting the Treasury, not from raiding their own reserves!

So it really doesn’t matter, because we really have no choice in the matter.

This is one of those I want to scream but I cant moments!

Here’s a scenario for ya…

Shiite and Sunni forces clash and US not able to get between them.
Violence spreads out of control.
US forces fighting Shiite and Sunni militias to protect Green Zone.
Saudi and Iranian forces get involved to turn tide of battles.
US bombs inside Iran.
Russia involved in air battles with US Air Force.
Region erupts.
World War III.

Elect your way out of that!

PS: Here Here JimM72

True to form, the conspiracy theorists on this thread see their theories as logical explanations of events instead of the counterintuitive messes that they are.

If the administration could’ve calmed the fires in Iraq with as much alacrity as you seem to think they have now, it’s fair to say they’d have done it long ago.  There’s been nothing beneficial in allowing Iraq to descend into violence.

Your desire to twist events to fit your view of administration as evil incarnate is obvious and, well, lame.

If we stay, we may or may not avoid the conflagration.

If we leave, we guarantee it.

Which sounds like the better choice?

Well and truly said.

“In Dante’s Inferno the innermost Circle of Hell, the Ninth, where the punishments are most heinous, is reserved not for murderers and their ilk but for those who have betrayed a trust.”

And no greater trust can be betrayed than the trust given when one man puts his life in the hands of another. If there is a Hell, I suspect the line waiting to get into that innermost circle will be long and full of recognizable faces.

The pools of blood. The pounds of flesh. The drops of oil. The war profiteers and now the “bribe” money. All stand as silent testimony to the absolute betrayal of our sons and daughters sacrificed in this pointless evil war of greed. And almost worse. The betrayal of the million or more dead Iraqis who were told we were coming to liberate them. Perhaps that “liberation by death” is the only close to true reality in this fools war.

From the article:

“If the U.S. begins, as promised, to withdraw troops, it will be harder to keep these antagonistic factions apart. The cease-fire by the radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, extended a few days ago, could collapse. And if that happens, a civil war, unlike anything U.S. forces have experienced in Iraq, will begin. Such a conflagration, with the potential to draw in neighboring states and lead to the dismemberment of Iraq, would be the final chapter of the worst foreign policy blunder in American history.”

***

But if we stay, how likely is it anything will change? The reality is nothing will change except it will probably get worse. And in the final analysis, that conflagration Chris Hedges speaks of will still come. It’s just a matter of time. Remember, if our sons and daughters are still there when it does come, They will be the line mowed down in the middle.

There can be no forgiveness for those political leaders who put us in this situation. There puffed up egos and their empty heads deserve no more than a trial by law. There can be no excuse for those civilian supporters of this evil who cheer it on. Even joyfully send their children off to become human sacrifice in the name of democracy.

Bush and his administration and his congress and those dems who were equally enthusiastic about becoming aggressors in an immoral war deserve no excuse. There is none.

Accountability, long overdo, must be swift and certain! Remember that when you go to the polls!

What a strange dilemma. You stand so firm in defense of a man whose name you have used so many times in an effort to demean Obama. I am truly nonplussed.

“Meanwhile Clinton and sadly her so-called supporters continue on creating ‘boomerang issues’ and ‘negative mental images’ and ‘hearsay verbal bashing’ that can only hurt her in the end.”

“With supporters like these, she doesn’t need to worry about her opponent.”

What, no response to this?

Accountability ... then peace.

if and when people realize that people, no matter their stations in life, their bank accounts, their intellectual accomplishments are, finally, just like the rest of us - human.  Bush, Cheney and fellow thugs are merely covering their historical asses, going out of office with… benevolent leader(Africa), problem solver (Israel/Palestine), Iraq war (won)…

Until we quit bestowing on our presidents some super-human quality, we’ll continue to take it in the neck from the crap they leave us to deal with. Maybe we’ll then realize we have to stop their self-aggrandizing tendencies before the crap can happen.

Louise:

“I think it’s nothing short of sad that you seem quite unable to focus on the value of bringing someone with contemporary experience into the equasion.”

I suggested nothing of the sort.  I was responding SPECIFICALLY to the continued stubbornness of your claim re Power from a single source, despite all the evidence to the contrary from dozens of other equally credible sources.  It says alot about you that you have now changed the subject - which is a tacit (and thus cowardly) admission that you were wrong.

“Far more determined to prove, to yourself anyway, that you will go down swinging to defend an issue that is possibly the least important in the campaign.”

The relative positions of ZB and SP on Obama’s team is NOT unimportant, since his foreign policy will be shaped by one or another or both of them.  And foreign policy (despite the focus on the economy right now) is THE issue of our time.

“...other than the fact that Power is smart and informed and experienced and credentialed and current and contemporary.”

Until very recently, Power was primarily a journalist.  And although she is a “scholar” of foreign policy (according to her resume), those are her only “credentails.” She has DONE NOTHING.  Nor does she have BROAD knowledge and experience in foreign affairs - particularly not when compared with someone like ZB, who has DONE things (both good and bad) and has credentials up the wazoo.  Nor is foreign policy something you do in a vacuum; i.e., Power may or may not be a scholar of history, whereas Brzesinski IS himself “history” in the sense of having lived it.  This is of a piece with your claim of her having “contemporary experience.” She may have contemporary KNOWLEDGE, but she has LITTLE “experience,” contemporary or otherwise.

“I brought up the name of Samantha Power because I thought you might find it interesting.”

Trust me, I do my homework, and have known about Power LONG before you brought her up.  Which is why I know that, compared to ZB, she is not just a lightweight, but a flyweight.

“The fact that Obama has reached out to someone who is closer to the current situation. Has more first-hand experience with the real time issues we all face right now.”

Again, given her lightweight resume, her young age and her lack of any PRACTICAL experience, how can you possibly say this when compared with ZB?  What makes ZB “less close” to the current situation, or (you must be kidding!) have LESS “first-hand experience with the real time issues?”

You are truly confused, Louise.  Because while bringing new perspectives to things is certainly a good thing, “youth” is NOT always an asset, particularly where foreign policy is concerned.

Peace.

American foreign policy has always been about someone else doing the dirty work, then having those people our government paid turning on us. It must be a brain block that is causing the current administration to pay for men involved in sectarian conflict, to police themselves and those around them.  Proxies have been used by the government of the US for a very long time, must we now pay for more, so that they can turn on us the same way Osama bin Laden turned on America after the conflict between Afghanistan and the Soviet Union.
The maxim is, “those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” I seem to remember, that Bush 1, was instrumental in the process of accepting and recruiting both Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden. You would think that the current administration would gladly learn from those who have committed such blunders in the past. Yet, we know from results that the Shrub will not learn and will not concede any of the lessons of the past.
We must, as Americans, demand an accounting of the past almost 8 years and with the truth told, if need be prosecute and imprison those who by reason of those acts they have committed and the laws they have contravened, deserve the big house.

August West:

Thanks for that astute observation. Good food for thought.

Douglas Chalmers:

“That’s OK, Louise, but you can expect that BO is keeping up with Hillary’s monthly periods (even if she’s no longer having them, uhh)......”

***

That is so, oh I don’t know ... adolescent?
Certainly tacky ... even for you!

***

“Sorry honey, this kind of gamesmanship is NOT what the American people are looking for......”

***

Then quit doing it!
duh ...

Maani:

obtuse:
:Lacking quickness of perception or intellect. Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity:

:Slow to understand or perceive something:

Which may explain a level of stubbornness that can eventually cause discomfort or pain to the stubborn.
So having said that, I think it’s nothing short of sad that you seem quite unable to focus on the value of bringing someone with contemporary experience into the equasion. Far more determined to prove, to yourself anyway, that you will go down swinging to defend an issue that is possibly the least important in the campaign. Well other than the fact that Power is smart and informed and experienced and credentialed and current and contemporary.

And that I suppose could be viewed as a threat.

I brought up the name of Samantha Power because I thought you might find it interesting. The fact that Obama has reached out to someone who is closer to the current situation. Has more first-hand experience with the real time issues we all face right now. Could bring a perspective that would raise the level of discourse. I thought that was a good thing.

Raising the level of discourse. Something I emagined you would agree is a good thing.

Seems I was wrong ...

Meanwhile Clinton and sadly her so-called supporters continue on creating ‘boomerang issues’ and ‘negative mental images’ and ‘hearsay verbal bashing’ that can only hurt her in the end.

With supporters like these, she doesn’t need to worry about her opponent.

Accountability. Then peace.

By extending the Madhi Army’s cease-fire for an additional Friedman Unit (i.e., six months), Muqtada al-Sadr is now a power broker in the U.S. Presidential election.  Depending on how the effect of all hell breaking loose in Iraq just before our election might be viewed and which candidate might be more beneficial to the Shia majority, there might be major bloodshed this fall or the cease-fire may be extended for yet another Friedman Unit.  My money says it Iraq remain relatively quiet until after our election.

Louise:

I never realized just how willfully obtuse you really are.  Just because ONE person puts the word “senior” before the phrase “foreign policy advisor,” that makes it so?  That goes being willfully obtuse to hopelessly in denial.

Amy Goodman can say whatever she wants; it doesn’t make her right.  Indeed, how you can suggest the opinion of ONE source, however “credible” that source may be, negates DOZENS AND DOZENS of other equally credible sources (and no, not ALL of them are “mainstream") is truly bewildering.  Power may or may not be the “public face” of Obama’s foreign policy team, but she is NOT the most senior advisor.

Again, to suggest that a 30-something Harvard grad with little practical experience in foreign policy is going to be “senior” to a 70-something foreign policy LEGEND (and such he is, whether or not I am a “fan") with more than three DECADES of practical and APPLIED foreign policy experience flies in the face of logic, common sense and truth.

You need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Peace.

By Louise, February 25: “Cant hardly expect a Clinton supporter to be on top of everything in Obamas camp...”

That’s OK, Louise, but you can expect that BO is keeping up with Hillary’s monthly periods (even if she’s no longer having them, uhh)......

Obama: Clinton “periodically… attacks to boost appeal” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qNpeGPdhEw

Sorry honey, this kind of gamesmanship is NOT what the American people are looking for......

“He is senior to her in EVERY regard.” (?)

I had no idea you were such a fan of the guy!!!

http://www.democracynow.org/

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/2/25/barack_obamas_se nior_foreign_policy_adviser

I’ll take Amy’s sources over any and all mainstreammedia sources ... any day!

Accountability ... then peace!

[I just remembered ... we’re running out of honey. Sorry if that sweet stuff offends you. Personally I love it]

Louise:

Are you DELIBERATELY being obtuse?  What is YOUR source?  How many sources can YOU cite for YOUR claim?  I would be willing to list over two dozen sources for mine, including the Harvard paper (Ms. Power is a Harvard grad, so one would think that, if she were the “top” advisor, it would be noted so), and at least four major foreign policy websites.

No, “honey,” it is not just about age.  He is senior to her in EVERY regard.

Peace..."honey"

Well, if you’re talking about age ... I agree Brzezinski wins!

So I repeat, sorry honey, you’re wrong.
But that’s OK. Cant hardly expect a Clinton supporter to be on top of everything in Obamas camp.

Maybe you need to check a dozen more sources.

Accountability ... then peace.

Louise:

According to every source I checked (over a dozen), Samanatha Power is “an” advisor, not “the top” advisor.  This includes articles that include interviews with Power, who never once refers to herself (nor do the articles refer to her) as his “top” foreign policy advisor.  Every single article and site at which I found both their names puts Brzezinski’s first.  After all, do you REALLY think that Zbigniew Brzezinski - given his history and “resume” - is going to be second-guessed by a 30-something Harvard grad?  Please.

Here is one such entry.  And all the others read similarly:

“Senator Barack Obama’s foreign policy advisers, who on average tend to be younger than those of the former first lady, include mainstream strategic analysts who have worked with previous Democratic administrations, such as former national security advisors Zbigniew Brzezinski and Anthony Lake, former assistant secretary of state Susan Rice, and former navy secretary Richard Danzig. They have also included some of the more enlightened and creative members of the Democratic Party establishment, such as Joseph Cirincione and Lawrence Korb of the Center for American Progress, and former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke. His team also includes the noted human rights scholar and international law advocate Samantha Power - author of a recent New Yorker article on U.S. manipulation of the UN in post-invasion Iraq - and other liberal academics. Some of his advisors, however, have particularly poor records on human rights and international law, such as retired General Merrill McPeak, a backer of Indonesia’s occupation of East Timor, and Dennis Ross, a supporter of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank.”

Nice try...honey.

Peace.

Sorry honey, you’re wrong.
But that’s OK. Cant hardly expect a Clinton supporter to be on top of everything in Obamas camp.

Tosh:

Yes, Zbig was Carter’s National Security Advisor.  But his service predates Carter.  You might find these photos interesting:

http://www.geocities.com/RepresentativePress/binLadenp hoto.html

Peace.

Louise:

Nope.  Brzezinski is the most senior advisor.

Peace.

Ancestry:

We have an interesting one. Native American, African, Indian, Roman, British, Scandinavian, Laplander, German, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Spanish and Lord knows what else. But not necessarily in that order, and who knows what we might find if we cared enough to follow every line!

Go back far enough and we all have the same root DNA. Unlike some, I celebrate that which makes me so typical of all Americans. The melting pot!

And I might celebrate my various [and I am sure there are many] religious backgrounds ... if I knew what they were!

Why do those with petty minds always focus on the petty? OK, dumb question.

This might be a good time to remind folks, since roughly 650 AD various versions of more or less the same three factions have been killing each other [in the name of God] in the splendid land we now call Iraq.

Now what on earth made any sane person believe a nincompoop like Bush could change the equation?

Actually that four letter name we all love to take in vain most likely knew that, pretty much guaranteeing the chaos his war(s) became. And lets not make the mistake of thinking just because the current version of those three factions seem to be willing to accept bribes, [which is how we have ALWAYS done business in the Middle East] the surge has, or is working.

That thing called The Surge was just a diversion to keep the dim-bulbs at home happy and the guys on the ground getting shot at and blown up believing they really were making a difference.

By the way Maani, Barack Obama’s Senior Foreign Policy Adviser is Samantha Power. You might want to check that out.

Maani

Kafka, Vonnegut and Heller could not have concocted a more bizarre war.

Good comment!!!

Fellini is producing and directing.

Give them guns, money for ammo and provide targets for them.

Pull the plug, bring everyone home and let them sort it out, they’ve done and redone it since before America was founded.  We would achieve a greater respect from the majority for doing so.....and we could use the money here at home.

Not only “ paying (and arming) insurgents” in Iraq but also paying Al Qaeda as well through their links with the Pakistani military. But the real truth is that Al Qaeda IS part of the Pakistani military, uhh.

Thta’s what Benazir Bhutto meant last December when she said they were being run from Karachi and the Taleban from Islamabad........

But Iraq is not Yugoslavia and Turkey will ‘clean up’ - and so too will Iran when they have the chance.