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Alex Gibney in Conversation With Robert ScheerPosted on Feb 24, 2008
Truthdig Editor Robert Scheer interviews documentarian Alex Gibney about his 2008 Academy Award-winning documentary, “Taxi to the Dark Side,” a compelling examination of the circumstances that led Americans to commit torture. Also, be sure to check out LinkTV’s special “The Politics of War,” which includes extended interviews with Alex Gibney and “No End in Sight” director Charles Ferguson, along with clips from their films. Watch the interview:
Watch the trailer for “Taxi to the Dark Side”:
Transcript:Robert Scheer: Hi, it’s Robert Scheer, Editor of Truthdig. I’ve interviewed a lot of people, but I’m really excited to talk to Alex Gibney here, because I have enormous admiration for your work, and I’m not just blowing smoke here. I thought your film “Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room,” which was nominated for an Academy Award, was just about the best way to teach about the American economy. I use it in classes. It’s a great film. You worked as the producer, the executive producer, on “No End in Sight,” which is also this Sunday up for an Academy Award for documentary, competing against the film that you directed, “Taxi to the Dark Side,” which I think is the most compelling movie, certainly in the last 10 years, maybe one of the most compelling movies ever made, about the subject of torture. And I want to tell people you can see it up the road, maybe you can rent it, see it in some theaters. Alex Gibney: It’s in some theaters now. Scheer: It can win the Academy Award. Gibney: And then it will come back again, and soon, this fall, it will be on HBO. Scheer: And it will be on Link TV for those who get Link where they are. What I felt compelling about this movie—first I wasn’t going to see it. I only saw it because we were going to do a discussion after I watched and thought it was going to bum me out. Gibney: See the problem. Scheer: I know the problem. We all avoid seeing it, and I didn’t have any trouble watching it, because, I don’t want to use the word educational. ... I kept learning, I kept learning about human beings. And what’s compelling about this movie is you get inside the heads of people who did the torturing. Gibney: That’s right. Scheer: And some of them fall apart. Why don’t you talk about that? Gibney: Well, generally speaking, I’m more interested in perps than the victims. It was that way with Enron, too. I was interested in these traders who broke down the California grid. I was interested in actually what made Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling tick. And in the case of “Taxi to the Dark Side,” I was interested in these guys who brutally tortured and murdered this young Afghan taxicab driver. And some of them were interrogators, some of them were military police. They had felt scapegoated because the people who either condoned or ordered [them] to do what they did weren’t even investigated, much less convicted of anything. So I think that gave them a motivation—. Scheer: Right up to the president of—. Gibney: Right up to the president of the United States. So in talking about—. Scheer: So for people who haven’t seen the film, we should stress that. Some of these guys are kids. Gibney: They’re all kids. And they had exactly one day of guard training, these guards. And the interrogators sometimes had three-four hours of interrogation training before they performed their first interrogation. That gives you some sense of the kind of science of interrogation and detention that we were dealing with. There were kids thrown into a situation at a time when the Bush administration were saying the gloves were off, there are no rules anymore, forget the rules, throw out the rules. Just get the information however you can. And so these kids went into that situation and were being pushed harder and harder by their superior officers. One sergeant told one of these kids, “Take that prisoner out of his comfort zone ... ,” meaning, beat him up. And in retrospect, they’re deeply haunted by what they have seen and what they did. As one very big, burly guard said, “I wish I had done stuff according to my own morality instead of what was common.” Scheer: But these are kids who’ve never been out of the country before? Some may have found themselves—. Gibney: A lot of them were National Guard and suddenly they’re in a foreign country, where bullets are flying and your buddies are dying. ... Scheer: Now this taxi driver, he was totally innocent? Gibney: That’s one of the things of this story that have always haunted me. There are two things that will always haunt me. One is, this kid, he’s a 122-pound kid, he was 22 years old, I believe. He was driving home in his taxi and was picked up by Afghan militia, turned over to American forces. [The Americans were told] that he was responsible for a rocket attack. It turned out that the people who turned him over were the ones who launched the rocket attack. The Americans didn’t know it. They tortured him so badly that, they beat him so badly that ultimately he died of his injuries after five days. On the third day, though, they discovered he was innocent and, for another two days, they tormented him until he died. They literally kicked his legs so often that they became pulpified. Scheer: Even though they knew he was innocent? Gibney: Even though they know he was innocent. And that was one of the things—. Scheer: It was that the inner barbarian had been released? Gibney: I think so. There is kind of a momentum to torture, as later on I discovered in the process of making this film. They have a term, it’s called “forced drift,” and so when you’re interrogating somebody, you’re trying to get information out of somebody and they don’t give you it, then you ramp it up. Particularly if there are no rules to guide you. And then you go more and more. And the next thing you know, you’re starting to brutalize somebody because they’re no longer a human being. And the military does understand this, and that’s why the military had rules in place, because you want a disciplined unit. You don’t want a mob, a lynch mob, in effect. But the Bush administration removed those guidelines. ... Scheer: And in your movie, you interviewed people who were higher up, but not the highest? Gibney: We go up the chain of command. Scheer: You go to Colin Powell’s chief of staff. Gibney: We go to Colin Powell’s chief of staff. And also Alberto Mora, who was a former general counselor for the Navy. We also talked to the commanding officer of Guantanamo. And the man inside the Bush administration who was responsible for manipulation of all the laws, or at least manipulating the interpretations of all the laws. So that we could imagine a policy of torture and so the people at the top of the administration could elude prosecution for war crimes. Elsewhere: . CommentsAre you a Truthdig member yet? Login now, or register with Truthdig.
By Bill Blackolive, March 22 at 10:09 am # wow, just back from wine at patriotsquestion9/11I may imagine fear which humanitarians like Robert Scheer and Amy Goodman and Scott Ritter and Michael Moorer who already naturally get death threats have to be feeling, and by now they are seen at patriotsquestion911....Here I can just muck off, do not have to fret starting my car or coming into my house. Still, there is such an expanding body of distinguished folks at patriots, there has got to be strength in these numbers. There are a few individuals on corporate TV nearly brave as Rosie, aren’t there? In this land where many do not vote or much read news, or look past corporate news, this patriots hats-in-ring information, of hundreds to a thousand plus of professors, celebrities, engineers, pilots, firemen witnesses, has got to get there right now.
By liberal white boy, March 16 at 4:12 am # Come on man we only tortured three people what is the big deal? Are America’s New Torture Practices Discriminatory? http://homo-sapien-underground.blogspot.com/2008/03/mo ssad-terrorists.html
By jackie T. Gabel, March 12 at 8:46 am # THE GLOBAL WAR OF TERROR is designed to terrorize everyone - make us all beg for protection - the point missed - yes the perpetrators are victims too, but not for the reason implied - THE GLOBAL WAR OF TERROR is the biggest lie ever foisted on humanity and that’s the point missed both by Gibney and Scheer - not that the mission has failed - the mission is far more successful than most can imagine - the 100-year GLOBAL WAR OF TERROR is almost certainly a fait accompli - your grandchildren will know and suffer it too - the New World Oligarchy is here to stay - we are at the end of the empire
By Steven Stauffer, March 1 at 7:36 am # OutrageI’m not so occupied for time today to read and watch. You’re doing a fine service, and I hope to send some money your way within the month. Thanks, Steven
By Daniel Barker, February 27 at 2:57 pm # what are you doing about this?Personally, I do not believe liberals care about the environment, the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, or President Bush. Americans continue to eat too much meat - clearly, if I have to tell liberals that feedlot beef takes forty times the fossil fuel to produce as soybeans there is a disconnect with reality that I do not understand. Americans continue to buy too big cars. If people really cared, SUVs would not be selling and you would see hybrids on the road. Look at how the Left exploited, then ignored, Cindy Sheehan. While I am not a Leftist I recognize that Mrs. Sheehan is responding to a family tragedy and does not have an ulterior motive. Do you support Mrs. Sheehan today, or have you forgotten her? If you oppose the wars, why is President Bush still in office?
By GW=MCHammered, February 25 at 8:58 am # Loose Cannon AdministrationGov.Kstreet Achilles’ heel is in dollar flow. Aberrate the flow and watch them dance. Hence Americans’ greatest power lies in doing nothing: Do this until the bent wheels of corporate government turn red-white-blue again. Begin with National Strike Day. Move to National Strike Week. End with National Strike Month if needed. Armies can’t make you go to work or buy-buy-buy until you’re senseless. Let Bush, his CEO lords, wall street bankers and in-their-pocket-congressmen explain to domestic and foreign investors why their forecasts, contracts and productivity figures are so off. Convince them this is a nation of We the People. Pick a day. Stay home. Write NSD (National Strike Day) on your bills and let them go into default that month. If pressures rise, advance to NSW (National Strike Week) and let them default another month. Hey, defaults happen everyday. Still don’t like their dance? Take to the streets with NSM (National Strike Month). Remind them why Nixon finally ended the Vietnam War. And if our system is too corrupt to hold this loose cannon administration to the Rule of Law, call for American Non-Governmental Organizations Coalition for the International Criminal Court to aid, involve the World Court.
By A human Being, February 25 at 6:01 am # As much as we are waking up, the hard times are yet to come. Who will be ready to stand up against such a beast and give their life for revolution...People that see US as “sheep” or “comsumers” will have no problem using their developed weapons on US when we take to the streets and demand change. I see it as their chance to enact marshall law. I would love to read some of your viewpoints on this my fellow men and women if you wish to respond. Thanks
By Me, March 5 at 5:08 am # Re: A human BeingMaybe have given their lives, i.e. their careers or their home country already - Craig Murray, Ilan Pappé or any other whistleblower - in exchange for their good conscience. And more will.
By rparker124, February 24 at 12:47 pm # I will try to be brief. Without absolving individuals of responsibility for their actions, situational forces exercise enormous pressure on people to conform even when they know it goes against their own moral and ethical beliefs. Experiments in social psychology have shown this to be true. I suggest interested people read “The Lucifer Effect: Understanding how good people turn evil” by Philip Zimbardo PhD, and visit his website about his landmark “Stanford Prison Experiment”: http://www.prisonexp.org/. Zimbardo’s basic premise in the Lucifer Effect is that it is not the “bad apple” as the government would want you to believe, but the “bad barrel” in which individuals are just a small part. The ultimate responsibilty lies high up the chain of command, yet they truly have gotten away with murder.
By Me, March 5 at 5:54 am # Re:This is true. Yet when you follow that line, take a look at the excellent documentary “S21: The Khmer Rouge Death Machine” (five Khmer Rouge leaders will be tried at the Hague sometime in the future). The torturers are almost the same guys. Take the next step, and you will feel sympathy for the Nazi Death Camp guards. You have to make a conscious, moral choice, not out of hate but out of understanding. We can all sink that low, yet we must not permit it.
By Bill Blackolive, February 24 at 8:57 am # Good having anything seen up the US chain of command anytime, but, it is not new for US natives to torture anyone. War always has some of this, US police forces have have often been caught in this. US citizens are the same people as people anywhere. The web and technology shrink the world, and it is traumatic for US citizens to be learning God has not liked them best. To peel more from the rotted onion we need to see the 9/11 coverup enter corporate television.
By Nadine, February 24 at 11:19 pm # Re: right on!Yes, it could be that Americans are not very nice people. But who will consider this possibility? We are Ignorant. Uneducated. Naive. We mean well. At least that’s been the excuses for a long time now.. The movie has also done wonder around the globe to keep the myth going… Add Your Comment |
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