I agree with Gomer.  This nation has never treated it vets with the respect they deserve.  When I was in the Corps I heard about Smeley Butler, but never anything about his book “War is a Racket”.

As long as huge profits can be made by a few then we will have continual War.  The profiteers need to be held accountable for their crimes against humanity.  When I served my time only a few were put in harms way. 

We have far more awareness to our governments denial of any accountability for its crimes today.  We have a greater awareness of how PTSD affects the Vet for the rest of their lives.  Our government has a policy of denial hoping that our vets die.  Its cheaper that way.  The gatekeepers a paid by our government to minimize the costs, truth be damned.

It is a shameful truth especially as the profiteers have Billions that cannot account for on paper.  They just are payed way to well for their sinful job.

Mike:

“I am not Jesus, just a poor follower.” So are we all.  But that does not mean we should not aspire and emulate to greatest degree possible.

“In my understanding of His teachings we are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.”

You are also told: “Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”

This was not just some nicey-nice suggestion.  It was essentially a “command"(ment) from He whom you claim to follow.

“Why would I want anyone to elect a woman who is justifying her vote for an illicit war?”

As noted, you have every right NOT to vote for her.  But you do NOT have a right to judge her, or to withhold forgiveness.

“Have you never considered the harm that is done to all humanity with the onset of preemptive war?”

Yes, I have.  And war is wrong whether it is pre-emptive or not.

“On balance she has done more harm then good?  Are you shitting me?  WELL OVER ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND ARE DEAD.”

Jesus did not revile Caesar, who caused FAR MORE than one hundred thousands deaths, including many of Jesus’ friends.  Indeed, he told the people to “render to Caesar what is Caesar’s and render to God what is God’s.” Indeed, it was Jesus’ REFUSAL to revile, chastise and even “declare war” on Caesar that made Judas betray Him.

“I have a duty to my neighbors around the world not to elect this war mongering woman you forgive for killing hundreds of thousands of people, while you would set her lose on the world.”

If you feel it your duty not to vote for her, you have that right.  However, we must agree to disagree re “setting her loose on the world,” since I do not believe she is the “devil” you make her out to be.

“Christ said to read the signs of the times.  Would you elect this anti-christ who you apparently feel capable of overcoming the multitudes of dead and the ocean of blood spilt on her hands.”

Misusing words like “antichrist” simply shows me how little you understand of those words.  Hillary is a flawed human like all of us.  She has made both bad decisions and good.  She (among many, many others) made a particularly bad decision that led to the deaths of thousands of people, both soldiers and civilians.  However, to consider this one decision the “sum total” of what she has done or could do for the good is to deny that people can learn from their mistakes, and change.

“Full of grace are you that you’re willing to bet your soul on a warmonger?”

It is good thing that the disposition of my soul is not dependent on the decisions I make re the temporal world.  Your comment is further evidence of your lack of understanding as to how we are “saved” and what, if anything, can imperil that salvation.

Peace.

I thought this thread was about Vet’s Care. Seems to be more of a forum where the genius intelligentsia gets to call everybody else an idiot. This TruthDig site sucks.

#By jackpine savage, February 4: “You might not have noticed, but Mike is a Vet.  So your little speeches about war come off as pretty patronizing.  I am assuming that you are the Douglas Chalmers of the Columbia University faculty...”

There are more than 349,000 entries for “Douglas Chalmers” in a cursory Google search and I notice that you chose the first one, ha ha, jackpine savage. You are an idiot, uhh!

No I am NOT associated with Columbia University and after that creep Bollinger ranted and raved about Ahmadinejad, I am glad of that. It was proof that Americans have no concept of manners or proper conduct and no regard for anyone but themselves and their own far too precious viewpoints.

That, of course, also applies to the US military if not to all militaries around the world who all seek to justify their abominations with garbage about “service to their country”. It is a lie! The one thing that most of you guys enjoy is a good fire-fight and especially if you have the technology and the other side doesn’t.

That is typical of the attitudes of a hegemonic power and especially of a white WASP “settler society” whose sole aim, historically, is the elimination and anihilation of anyone who gets in their way. The US military have been degrading themselves like that since the days of infamy of the American “wild west”.

No, I did NOT serve in WW2 but some of my family and inlaws did. I’ve mentioned this before a couple of times and still you lot impudently come up with the selfish assumption that only you and your precious club of fools who are always willing to “fall into line” have any right to say anything.

Again, no I am not a veteran and I am glad not to be. Others went into the Vietnam war draft and I was left out. I was lucky and I think I learned more than enough from my relative and the families of friends to know that going to war is never a wise choice.

Too bad, though, that the militaries of the world have built their traditions upon such tragedies and travesties of human conduct. The real bravery is to do whatever is necessasy to stay off the battlefied and to stop any place from being turned into a battlefied.

As it is, none of you have been able to confront that except to whine impotently. What is worse, you expect people to have been to war as soldiers before they have any rights in your eyes. You still have no respect for the civilians who are caught up in your precious wars. You are the fools and you are true idiots of the first order.

MMC:

“What don’t you understand about the depth of evil that Hillary voted for Pastor Maani?”

Are you suggesting that Christ would not even have forgiven Hitler?  You seem to be missing what TRUE forgiveness is about.  It is not about “contriteness”: Jesus didn’t wait for people to ASK for forgiveness; He offered it to them even when they did NOT ask.  The adultress did not ask for forgiveness, yet Jesus forgave her.  I am not suggesting that adultery is equal to voting for a war that caused the deaths of thousands of people.  But your point here is wrong.

Even Gandhi understood this when he not only FORGAVE Jinnah for the Muslim-on-Hindu violence he instigated - which caused thousand of deaths - but offered to make Jinnah the first president of India, and to name an all-Muslim cabinet.

“What country would Jesus vote to start a preemptive war on Reverend Maani?”

Again, you are asking the wrong question.  The question should be “Who would Jesus NOT forgive, or for what action or decision would He not forgive them?” The ONLY people He withheld forgiveness from were the Temple Priests et al who had corrupted the spiritual teachings, and turned the temple into a marketplace.

“When exactly was it she asked for forgiveness?...No apologies, no real reason to forgive.”

Again, one does not need a “reason” to forgive; Jesus did not look for REASONS; He looked for OPPORTUNITIES.

“Isn’t that what the bible teaches us.  To forgive seven times seven if your brother/sister asks for forgiveness?”

Re what the Bible teaches, you have added language that is not there: “Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.” No mention of ASKING for forgivness; simply PROVIDING it with or without request.

You might want to keep the following phrases in mind: “Judge not, lest ye be judged in equal measure,” “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone,” and “Take the log out of your own eye before you take the splinter out of another’s.”

So…

“1.  I am angry with her for playing politics with war.” You have every right to be, and to choose not to vote for her for that reason.

“2.  She hasn’t asked for forgiveness.” She should not have to: your duty in trying to live a “Christ-like life” is to forgive her whether she asks for it or not.

“3.  Having had a hand in starting an immoral, unjustified war is a damnable thing.”

YOU do not decide what is “damnable” and what is not; ALL judgment is reserved to Christ.

“So not being facetious or combative either, why is it you want this woman to be the leader of our nation?  Why is it you now think she is worthy of being president?”

All people are fallible.  All people make bad - sometimes even harmful - decisions.  But I support Hillary because, on balance (in my opinion), she has done far more good than bad, and is likely to DO far more good than bad as president - indeed, I believe that, if elected, she will surprise even her most ferocious critics.

Peace.

These guys need assistance now. Until we can collectively get something going you might consider donating to any of the groups like the Wounded Warrior Project.

#By Mike Mid-City, February 3: “… I am outraged that the people who were wrong in the beginning and are now retroactively anti-war....”

How convenient then to blame it all on Hillary Clinton, Mike Mid-City. The real reason you are doing so is because she is a woman. Without that, you wouldn’t have a clear identifier from all the other Democrats who did the same. You haven’t mentioned any of them but you have accused and abused her a hundred times at least already. Basically, you are a sexist and misogynist, uhh.

A lot of people were wrong in the beginning and are now retroactively anti-war because they had doubts and were being misled and misinformed. They were also in shock and in fear. Actually, no-one had the amount of information we have easily available now. Even so, how long has it taken for most people to accept that the invasion of Iraq was wrong? I think you have forgotten that there is a progressive development and unfolding.......

#By Mike Mid-City, February 3: “Killing each other in war is not natural.  You have to twist your mind around it and then the chaplain says, “God Bless you son, go do your duty.”

So what is “duty” , then, Mike Mid-City, and who or what should it be to? Is this not the usurping of one’s inner self, one’s spiritual connection with the infinite Creator by either misleading people or by paralyzing their mental functioning enough to mislead them through fear or doubt?

Mankind was not put on this Earth to be unhappy. Nor is there any real reason for man to fear man. These are all artificial creations designed to herd and corrall people for the servitude of those who would be their masters. Now, you all have a fake version of democracy which is feeding off you, not sustaining you. Why???

As it is, you want relief from the anxieties and desperate frustrations that plague you. As such, you are easy prey for some new Pied Piper playing his tune of supposed “change” mixed in with the opposite but familiar-sounding “I don’t oppose all wars” version of “Support the troops!”. But can you imagine freedom???

MMC said, “Leefeller, why would a Hillary supporter talk about veterans?”

Let me give you at least three reasons why.

First, you may all have forgotten, but it was Hillary, as First Lady, who FIRST began the investigations into what became known as Gulf War Syndrome.  And she pushed tirelessly for - and won - legislation providing additional benefits for vets with GWS.  This was not simply politically unpopular, it was downright RADICAL, since NO ONE wanted to even DISCUSS this at the time, much less begin formal investigations.

Second, as Senator, Hillary fought successfully to prevent the military from denying vets the $50,000 bonus for “upping” for another year if they were wounded during that year.  This was the result of a young man who re-upped for a fourth tour, with the promise of a $50,000 bonus.  He lost both legs less than two months later and was sent home.  When he asked the military for his $50,000, they told him, “You didn’t complete your one-year contract.” Hillary made sure this would NEVER happen again.

Third, my roommate was in NH canvassing for Hillary for six days prior to the voting.  Among those canvassing with her was the VFW.  My roommate had many discussions with them - old and young, black and white, male and female - and asked them why they were supporting Hillary.  They told her that Hillary is “the only member of Congress who gives a s--- about veterans.” That she had done more for vets and their rights, benefits, etc. than anyone else in Congress.  When she asked about Obama, one of them sneered and said, “Obama?  F---er is on the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee, but has the worst attendance record and hasn’t done s--- for us.”

Note that these were not all NH vets, but that some of them had come in from other states to help canvass.

Peace.

Apathy of you post is very real, (great post by the way), most of those who are silent or for the war have never been in one.

Maybe the draft should be reinstated, then and only then will the people will turn their heads.

Hillary, and a lot of other “smart” people in politics voted for the war because of the “evidence” of a clear threat from Saddam.

Know what? I did not have access to that “intelligence” but knew from day one it was all bullshit! But that doesn’t make me special, my Senator felt the same way [bless her for her wisdom] as did a good many others in this country!

I didn’t have a vote. But I like to think my letters and phone calls may have played a small part in leading my Senator to vote against invading Iraq. Although I’m sure she acted based on her own smarts. Maybe folks in my area are a little smarter.

No. There were too many I encountered who were as dumb as Hillary.

Like the dedicated poet who was publishing his “patriotic” poems calling for love and obedience to the leaders of this great nation. I found him fascinating as he almost came to tears explaining the personal conviction he had that he needed to do what he could to help the American people rally round the president in this time of crisis. I was touched. So touched I asked him which division of the military he had served in. Oh, he responded, I never was in the military.

While on the other side of this thorny issue, members of the military in my family, and my veterans felt the same way I did. A growing sense of alarm at the obvious lies. A growing sense of awareness that sanity would not prevail.

As time went on it became clear those who most passionately supported invading Iraq had never been in the military. Had no family member in the military. And those veterans who passionately supported invading Iraq were the veterans who had all their limbs. A chest-full of medals and a few good “stories” to tell.

On the other hand, those veterans who walked, or not, in pain, and had seen buddies die and civilians harmed were most passionate in opposing it.

Bottom line: I think the problem was, is, we have too many civilians and not enough veterans. Too many civilians and not enough troops. Too many civilians who haven’t suffered so much as a good case of hiccups from this war, or any war we have gone plunging into.

People with small minds have tried to compare this war with WWII. The real warriors from WWII are few and usually silent. There is NO comparison. Except we are still fighting Fascism, but this time we don’t know it. This time we don’t see the real enemy. This time there will be no certain victory. Just a lot of death and destruction.

American Veterans in Crisis is a symptom of the American civilization in crisis. There will be no hope of an end to this horror until we gather up our respective gonads and let Hillary, and the other politicians who waffle around the evil they have unleashed, we wont take it any more!

That should make it pretty easy to decide who you will vote for! And even easier to decide who you WONT vote for!

From our great nations ability to shove integrity into a closet full of skeletons, we add the Christian resolve to talk of love and care, while acting without compassion.

Why are not the churches of such greatness not screaming the horrors of war?

Your assumption makes sense, (assume, makes an ass out of you and me) Thanks for assuming to everyone that I voted for Bush, why would you say that? What can I expect from somone like you, my vote was one that did not get counted in 2004. I held my nose hen and voted for the Ketchup king. My preference not to have to vote for Hillary this time around, may have me pissing in the wind again.

Having the candidates field modified by several small states, manipulated by the media and and imbeciles like yourself bending to special interests seems to have the upper hand.  Hillary may win supported by war lovers like your self, special interests, the good old boys in the military complex may have another one tucked in the shorts, good job Douglas.

Vote for war, vote for Hillary, Yea team.

Old men send the young to war, so be it.

Where are the Hillary supporters - #By Leefeller, February 2: “Notice not one of the Hillary supporters has made a comment on this post as of yet...”

Whilst you are maliciously attacking any criticism of your favorite new war president in other topics, Leefeller, what have you said of any true value here? And didn’t you vote twice for Bush as president???

While we are at it, lets also look at Hillary Clinton’s past record - her 2002 speech which was given under the duress of the circumstances of the time. She was far more averse to starting another war in Iraq and in “hunting down” the illusory Al Qaeda and already-deceased Osama Bin Laden than your darling Barack Obama and his glee at white people spilling each others’ blood over “freeing” a few black slaves.

*Quote Hillary Clinton:  “Some people favor attacking Saddam Hussein now, with any allies we can muster, in the belief that one more round of weapons inspections would not produce the required disarmament, and that deposing Saddam would be a positive good for the Iraqi people and would create the possibility of a secular democratic state in the Middle East, one which could perhaps move the entire region toward democratic reform. This view has appeal to some........

This is a very difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make—any vote that may lead to war should be hard—but I cast it with conviction....... My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose—all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world...” http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html

And, while you are at it, don’t forget that Barack Obama was the one who so irresponsibly repudiated the PEACE-INSPIRING Christian teachings of Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount which he derided as “...a passage that is so radical that it is doubtful whether our own Defense Department would survive its application” !!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPUe6T8RVXs The hell with you, then, Leefeller, uhh.