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Posted on Nov 27, 2007

By Amy Goodman

Every Saturday, the president of the United States gives a radio address to the nation. It is followed by the Democratic response, usually given by a senator or representative. This past Saturday the Democrats chose retired Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez to give their response, the same general accused in at least three lawsuits in the U.S. and Europe of authorizing torture and cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment of prisoners in Iraq. This, combined with the Democrats’ endorsement of Attorney General Michael Mukasey despite his unwillingness to label waterboarding as torture, indicates that the Democrats are increasingly aligned with President Bush’s torture policies.

  Sanchez headed the Army’s operations in Iraq from June 2003 to June 2004. In September 2003, Sanchez issued a memo authorizing numerous techniques, including “stress positions” and the use of “military working dogs” to exploit “Arab fear of dogs” during interrogations. He was in charge when the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison occurred.

  Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who headed Abu Ghraib at the time, worked under Gen. Sanchez. She was demoted to colonel, the only military officer to be punished. She told me about another illegal practice, holding prisoners as so-called ghost detainees: “We were directed on several occasions through Gen. [Barbara] Fast or Gen. Sanchez. The instructions were originating at the Pentagon from Secretary Rumsfeld, and we were instructed to hold prisoners without assigning a prisoner number or putting them on the database, and that is contrary to the Geneva Conventions. We all knew it was contrary to the Geneva Conventions.” In addition to keeping prisoners off the database there were other abuses, she said, like prison temperatures reaching 120 to 140 degrees, dehydration and the order from Gen. Geoffrey Miller to treat prisoners “like dogs.”

  And it’s not just about treatment of prisoners. In 2006, Karpinski testified at a mock trial, called the Bush Crimes Commission. She revealed that several female U.S. soldiers had died of dehydration by denying themselves water. They were afraid to go to the latrine at night to urinate, for fear of being raped by fellow soldiers: “Because the women, in fear of getting up in the hours of darkness to go out to the portolets or the latrines, were not drinking liquids after 3:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon. And in 120-degree heat or warmer, because there was no air conditioning at most of the facilities, they were dying from dehydration in their sleep. What [Sanchez’s deputy commanding general, Walter Wojdakowski] told the surgeon to do was, ‘Don’t brief those details anymore. And don’t say specifically that they’re women. You can provide that in a written report, but don’t brief it in the open anymore.’” Karpinski said Sanchez was at that briefing.

  Former military interrogator Tony Lagouranis, author of “Fear Up Harsh,” described the use of dogs: “We were using dogs in the Mosul detention facility, which was at the Mosul airport. We would put the prisoner in a shipping container. We would keep him up all night with music and strobe lights, stress positions, and then we would bring in dogs. The prisoner was blindfolded, so he didn’t really understand what was going on, but we had the dog controlled. The dog would be barking and jumping on the prisoner, and the prisoner wouldn’t really understand what was going on.”

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  Reed Brody of Human Rights Watch elaborated on Sanchez: “For those three months of mayhem that were occurring right under his nose, he never stepped in. And, also, he misled Congress about it. He was asked twice at a congressional hearing whether he ever approved the use of guard dogs. This was before the memo came out. And both times he said he never approved it. [W]e finally got the actual memo, in which he approves ‘exploiting Arab fear of dogs.’ ” Brody dismissed the military report clearing Sanchez of any wrongdoing: “It’s just not credible for the Army to keep investigating itself and keep finding itself innocent.”

  This is not about politics. This is about the moral compass of the nation. The Democrats may be celebrating a retired general who has turned on his commander in chief. But the public should take pause.

  The Democrats had a chance to draw a line in the sand, to absolutely require Mukasey to denounce waterboarding before his elevation to attorney general. Now they have chosen as their spokesman a discredited general, linked to the most egregious abuses in Iraq. The Bush administration passed Sanchez over for a promotion, worried about reliving the Abu Ghraib scandal during the 2006 election year. Now it’s the Democrats who have resuscitated him. Have they no shame?

  Amy Goodman is the host of “Democracy Now!,” a daily international TV/radio news hour airing on 500 stations in North America.

  © 2007 Amy Goodman

  Distributed by King Features Syndicate


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By Douglas Chalmers, December 4, 2007 at 11:07 am Link to this comment

#117911 by nahida on 12/04: “...I find it really outrageous and inconceivable to watch this fierce campaign rallying in “defence” of “our rights”, the rights of Muslim women….. What disturbs and frustrates me about this impious movement is the fact that those who are holding the banner of our “liberation” are precisely the ones whose hands are dripping with our blood…”

The one thing that Britain, the USA and Israel have in common is that they are all essentially “settler societies”, Nahida.

Some might find that surprising in regard to Britain, but it is so. They are the product of historical invasions and migrations from Europe for the past 2,000 years - and it shows in the genetic differences in their faces.

What is more, even Israel is basically European as most of its people have migrated there from centuries and generations of life and racial intermingling in Western Europe and since the Christian crusades.

But the USA is not only admittedly a “settler society” but, along with Israel, practices the worst atrocities of that mentality and mode of living. Prejudice, self-righteousness, arrogance and vanity, repression, you name it.

More recently, the British   experience was that the English majority forced their way upon the Irish (search “plantations of Ulster”) and the Scots (search “Highland clearances”). That was the methodology of the subsequent invasion of North America but it perhaps originated with the infamous crusades of 1,000 years past.

Ever since, Asia - and West Asia/North Africa in particular (the so-called “middle East”), have been the subject of their biased and jaundiced supremacist views. It is now endemic in “British” society, as you would most probably already know, but it has also been successfully exported to all nominally Anglo-Saxon countries.

As such, the “crusader” mentality is alive and thriving, and especially thanks to the Neocons and George Bush (“Crusader Rabbit” himself!). They are only now beginning to learn that not only do other people around the world not like it but that there are far-reaching economic disadvantages to their selfishly preferred attitudes.

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By nahida, December 4, 2007 at 10:29 am Link to this comment

“female U.S. soldiers had died of dehydration by denying themselves water. They were afraid to go to the latrine at night to urinate, for fear of being raped by fellow soldiers: “

And yet, some dare to talk about our oppression, the oppression of Muslim women!!

I find it really outrageous and inconceivable to watch this fierce campaign rallying in “defence” of “our rights”, the rights of Muslim women, such as the recent staging of the Islamo-fascist Awareness Week in USA sponsored by David Horowitz.

What disturbs and frustrates me about this impious movement is the fact that those who are holding the banner of our “liberation” are precisely the ones whose hands are dripping with our blood, the blood of Muslim women!

Wouldn’t it be a good idea if they stop killing us first (in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine with the imminent threat to Iran)?

I mean honestly, at least their hideous and bogus calls might gain some legitimacy and credibility then.

Wouldn’t it be a good idea if they could spare us their fake concern, and their crocodile tears weeping over our state of affairs and act honestly for once, by stopping their genocide against us, and by washing our blood off their hands?

This shrieking and fussing calling for our liberation from the “oppression” and

“dominance” of Islam; is not innocent, it’s rather sinister and disturbing dare I say.

These systematic attempts in the Western media to dehumanise one quarter of the world population, namely the Muslims are influenced and manipulated by the Zionists propaganda.
This recent study shows ‘demonisation’ of Muslims in the British media:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/nov/14/pressandpublishing.religion

The Zionists are discovering that their long concealed hideous crimes in Palestine have been exposed now, they are realizing that slowly but surely they are losing the world support, so they are trying to regain their grip and manipulate the world’s opinion by using new tactics…............

read article here:

http://poetryforpalestine.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!92AA638F9B6EA940!1409.entry

.

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By the cruel, but just, cyrena, December 3, 2007 at 5:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#117618 by cyrena
Cyrena, lovliest dungeon mistress of them all, what do you have against the humble Ron Paul supporter, such as myself? Can you give specifics on significant issues?  And in consonance with the content of this Goodman article, do you believe Congressman Paul would tolerate the torture of detainees or those who permitted such torture?

To deviate you further, you referred to the wry and inscrutable Paracelsus
awhile back as a crazed militiaman. What did he say to give you this salutary view of him. And if true, whom do you think it will be who will pull your very praiseworthy bacon out of the fire if the bad guys come for you in the middle of the night and haul you, mistakenly, to the ‘CLDUN’ Compound in which Hillary Clinton is being detained, claiming that you, also, are a crazy lesbian who doesn’t understand nuclear weapons? It will be Paracelsus cutting a hole in the floor to release you, right there from where you’re sitting under Hillary’s desk.

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By Conservative Yankee, December 3, 2007 at 5:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

117773 by driving bear on 12/03 at 3:14 pm

“That was the last time a major presidential candidate ran as a liberal.”

Mike Dukakis 1988 Democratic nominee.

Jerry Brown Democrat 1992 took 4 States in the Primaries.

BUT I agree with your thrust, liberals are going the way of the dodo!

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By driving bear, December 3, 2007 at 4:14 pm Link to this comment

The people on this forum thing the political leadership of this country changed in the 2000 election not so. The political leadership changed after the 1984 presidential election, and confirmed by the 1994 congressional election. In the 1984 election Walter Mondale ran as a traditional liberal and as we know from history he lost big. I think he only carried one state. That was the last time a major presidential candidate ran as a liberal. Fast forward to 1992 and Clinton ran as a “new Democrat” some would say Republican light and just got himself elected , If Perot had not ran I think Papa Bush would have been reelected. Then in 1994 and the republicans take control of congress. Then in 2006 if it had not been for the anti war bump the democrats would still be in the minority.
So the current democratic leadership has looked at this 22 years of history and in the words of Bernard Goldberg “lost its nerve” So John Lewis is not a bad man , but I think a man that lost his nerve.
Many democrats fall into that category now.

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By SaraB, December 3, 2007 at 11:27 am Link to this comment

cyrena you might trying checking into Something called ‘CoX2 Control’ Body Comfort by KAL. Primary active ingredient is called Japanese Knotwood. It won’t cure anything but I can testify that over time it helps to make pain and discomfort just a bit easier to manage and less intrusive.

There’s something to be said for roaring. I’ll think about that!

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By John Hanks, December 3, 2007 at 10:46 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

My Wyoming delegation is basically just a bunch of crooks.  Even so, I send them a general short message every day, just to let them know that I am informed, that I hate them, and I wish they would spend some time doing something else besides raising money and hanging out with other crooks.

I put the signs on my car because it is important to validate that huge number of Americans who are fed up with Bush, and the Republicans and who think 911 was an inside job.  Without validation, the general public believes it is isolated and alone.  The good people have to come out of the closet.

Letters to crooks and crook media are not enough.

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By Paracelsus, December 3, 2007 at 10:07 am Link to this comment

“You’re wasting your time demonizing one member of Congress, when none of this has been allowed to continue because of that ONE individual, but rather because of a huge collection of ignorant citizens, who I might add are either apathetic, corrupt, or just plain stupid, misinformed, with iodine deficient ideologies.”

No, it isn’t a waste of time! Call up your Representative’s office and scream at them! Now!!! I will demonize my Rep on my end, so I expect others to demonize theirs on their end. If you are not swearing and screaming at your Reps, then you are not trying hard enough. This tyranny is not something to get used. IF you need a cup of strong coffee or powerful liquor then I highly recommend it. If you need to smoke an unfiltered cigarette to get those neurons firing at full blast then do it!

This is not normal. Don’t get used it!!!! Roar!!!!

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By John Hanks, December 3, 2007 at 8:30 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I have a sign on the front windshield of my car that says, “Good Germans Loved Nazi Filth Too.”

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By cyrena, December 3, 2007 at 12:29 am Link to this comment

#117554 by Paracelsus on 12/02 at 2:05 pm
@ #117447 by John Hanks
•  Do you have any more background on Thom Hartman and Jay Marvin?
Paracelsus,

This is just another one of those things that I came across, and remembered that you’d asked. It’s an article (or book preview maybe) from Thom Hartman. So, I thought I’d post it for you.

I don’t know anything about Jay Marvin.

Whatever Happened to “We the People”?
  By Thom Hartmann
  Berrett-Koehler Publishing

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/112407F.shtml

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By cyrena, December 2, 2007 at 10:15 pm Link to this comment

#117604 by Paracelsus
•  I urge you to read Naomi Wolf’s book on fascism. She is very good about documenting how German liberals went weak kneed at the moments when German patriots needed them to stand tall.

Actually, Paracelsus, I HAVE read Naomi’s book, and I’ve recommended it for a course for the upcoming academic term. (The course is on Authoritarianism, and I’m relatively sure that it will be adopted. if not the entire book, than at least some of the most relevant chapters).

I’m also perfectly well aware of the liberal Germans who went weak kneed at the moments when they needed to speak out. Matter of fact, pretty much ANYBODY that has even an iota of knowledge of that time in history, is well aware of the fact that the ‘good Germans’ kept their heads down, and did nothing, thereby allowing the atrocities to take place.

So, that’s why I didn’t bother responding to all of your other stuff. It’s old news. We already KNOW it, and we already KNOW that the same thing is happening here in the US, and has been for at least 8 years. I did the VERY SAME ranting and raving in 2000, in the lead-up to the disaster that initiated the horrors of the Dick Bush regime, and I got the same responses that I now hear from the Ron Paulies – the cult of the ignorant. So, it would appear that little has changed. In short, your rage is understandable, but it is extremely late, and very misplaced. You’re wasting your time demonizing one member of Congress, when none of this has been allowed to continue because of that ONE individual, but rather because of a huge collection of ignorant citizens, who I might add are either apathetic, corrupt, or just plain stupid,  misinformed, with iodine deficient ideologies.

•  I am afraid you have a cultish devotion to those who rest on their laurels.

This would be a grossly incorrect assumption on your part, since I’m about as “anti-group think” as anyone that I know. So, your ignorance/arrogance is showing again, and the rhetoric is old and tired. “Those who rest on their laurels”? Please.

Now, I am really sorry about your chronic ailments, and I do in fact understand. I have been living with chronic pain as a result of an accident/injury and multiple surgeries for a number of years now. Since I’ve accepted the permanence of that, I manage my pain as best I can, and I agree that it isn’t easy. The meds are tempting, but in the end, they can (and generally do) add to the scope of the disability, since they disable the mind, without actually repairing the injuries to the body.

Now maybe in 20 or so years, I’ll be willing to part with my mind. But for now, I still need it, so I have to sort of just deal with the pain. But, those of course are individual choices. I’m sure Big Pharma is grateful for your business.

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By Paracelsus, December 2, 2007 at 9:06 pm Link to this comment

#117545 by Conservative Yankee

“Rage, being irrational, leaves this discussion moot.

“Who do you think is helped when one yells “fire” in a crowded building without using the phone next to him to call the fire department?”

You will be able to call the FBI on me when HR 1955 becomes law. How does angrily calling my Rep’s office equate to yelling fire in a crowded building to my desperate pleas and invective filled rants to my Congressman’s office?

Honestly would you be sympathetic to Congressman having me arrested?

Are you that accommodating to some sort of perceived wisdom in Lewis? You trust him that much while all around you a police state is being built.

CY, and Cyrena, let it be known that I, Paracelsus with hateful, malicious speech born of despair in the competency and virtue of a former civil rights leader who sits on his thumbs while all of America is destroyed by the coming police state, should be arrested under the kindly authority of Homeland Security. This former civil rights leader does nothing to stop Bush and company, and yet I Paracelsus am deserving of recrimination and scolding for “ignorance” for raging against a pompous ass, who bleats Christian principles of forgiveness in dealing with a criminal wrecking crew. I’m the bad guy; I’m the hateful filled Nazi. So… what that make you? Good? You’re not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie. Me, I don’t have that problem. Me, I always tell the truth. Even when I lie. So say good night to the bad guy! Come on. The last time you gonna see a bad guy like this again, let me tell you. Come on. Make way for the bad guy. There’s a bad guy comin’ through! Better get outta his way!

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By Paracelsus, December 2, 2007 at 8:44 pm Link to this comment

#117595 by cyrena

“Meantime Paracelsus, I thought you were gonna lay off the oxycodone? Didn’t you write a note to yourself about that? I guess you forgot.”

It is not a matter of forgetting. I have to deal with chronic pain resulting from an auto accident. But I see you will use any rhetorical weapon you find in the kitchen draw. I shall be less disclosing in the future as you have shown your character. But I do hope you can change that.

As to the spinelessness of John Lewis, that was from the article I posted. I notice that you had not mentioned my articles on the wonderful liberal folks of Wiemar Republic, who are footnotes of history for not doing anything to stop Hitler. The Reichstag had more Social Democrats and liberals than Nazis, and yet they voted for the “enabling act”. Lewis had voted for the HR 1955 Home Terrorism Act which criminalises free speech. Perhaps you think it is my speech that makes me a criminal for pointing out the cowardliness of Lewis in not submitting letters impeachment of the Bush Administration.

You want to impugn me for supposed ignorance for my opinion, when I know well his career; I live in his voting district. You want to create this hagiography of this man, thus this beatification makes any valid criticism of Lewis some sort of blasphemy. I hate the cowardice in the man, not the man himself. I pray he changes, but I fear all these rubber chicken dinner tributes to past milestones has corrupted him for our present battles.

I urge you to read Naomi Wolf’s book on fascism. She is very good about documenting how German liberals went weak kneed at the moments when German patriots needed them to stand tall. I am afraid you have a cultish devotion to those who rest on their laurels.

Feel free to scream out your rage at me. You know not what you do.

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By cyrena, December 2, 2007 at 7:33 pm Link to this comment

•  #117313 by Conservative Yankee on 12/01 at 5:45 am
The idea that John Lewis is “spineless” because he picks his battles using his vast knowledge of how the system works is a concept born from a lack of knowledge…….John Lewis “spineless?” WOW what unmitigated ignorance!!!


Well CY, you DEFINITELY called this one right. And, that’s really all that it is. IGNORANCE. But, in the case of this Paracelsus character, it’s aided and abetted by mean spirited and bitter hatred. So, while some ‘ignorance’ can in fact be cured, (we all have a level of it, and it can in fact be cured with morsels of knowledge here and there) that doesn’t help when this combination exists.

Meantime Paracelsus, I thought you were gonna lay off the oxycodone? Didn’t you write a note to yourself about that? I guess you forgot.

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By Douglas Chalmers, December 2, 2007 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment

#117524 by John Hanks on 12/02: “...crooks and their suckers run the world.  Lazy cowards always put up with it…. liberal Jews that have protected us from the Zionists, Neocons, and Israeli right.  They are the ones who have followed this filth, and therefore they report on them.  Most of the good reporting has come from leftists and Jews….. intelligent smart Jews don’t seem to be willing to take this scum on….. the same mistake that many Jews made as Hitler came to power…”

Ironic then that it was an American German Jew, Robert (I have no regrets) Oppenheimer and an insane Hungarian migrant Jew, Edward Teller who who developed the A-bomb and the H-bomb, the world’s first nuclear WMD’s and that the world has never been the same since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Teller and also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Oppenheimer

It all started back in pre-WW2 Nazi Germany once the information that the element uranium was a huge potential source of energy came to “light”. Immediately, the Nazis siezed on it and began research into using it as a weapon. Other countries soon followed suit. The USA got there first most probably because of being able to fund a larger team of scientists.

Later, the USA and Russia contended in a race to capture the surviving Nazi rocket scientists and their research information as Germany crumbled in 1944. None of that was in any way intended for peace. World domination was the only motivation for all sides as with the nuclear research from its beginnings.

Again, it has been Israel which has covertly developed its own nuclear weapons and has the only working nuclear reactor in the Middle East. We can thank the Jew, Mordechai Vanunu for exposing that to the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu  But how long before anyone reveals a way of ending the nuclear arms race????

Instead, Israel manipulates its allies (especially the USA) into promoting its expansionist “Its either them or us” mentality and racist and biased elitist policies. For the rest of the Nuclear Club, pride in being able to “beat” their neighbours “back to the stone age” is their greatest shortcoming - and the greatest danger to the human race. What “liberal Jew” will step forward now to help end this quest for total anihilation???

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By John Hanks, December 2, 2007 at 5:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hannah Arendt was a Jewish resistance member and Zionist who eventually gave up Zionism.  Her writings are very subtle and turgid.  She wrote a very good history of the Jews before World War II, in which she cited Jewish isolation and failure to form alliances as leading them vulnerable to being a patsy.  Thom Hartmann is a Progressive Jew who has had a remarkable career in almost every aspect of the progressive movement.  Jay Marvin is a wonderful artist and a radio talk show host out of Denver.  (You would be better off to do a google search of these people and then you would get much more info than I could supply.

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By Paracelsus, December 2, 2007 at 3:05 pm Link to this comment

@ #117447 by John Hanks

Do you have any more background on Thom Hartman and Jay Marvin?

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By Paracelsus, December 2, 2007 at 3:02 pm Link to this comment

@ #117524 by John Hanks


Do you have any clever quotes of Hannah Arendt?

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By Conservative Yankee, December 2, 2007 at 2:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Paracelsus

“I call him as often as my rage pushes me..”

Rage, being irrational, leaves this discussion moot.


Who do you think is helped when one yells “fire” in a crowded building without using the phone next to him to call the fire department?

pendulums swing this part of history will pass. there will not be Nazis or Romans running the Republic.

Passing phase better left to pass quickly.

Oh wow another point-of-view…

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By John Hanks, December 2, 2007 at 11:11 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The generalizations are based on the simple fact that crooks and their suckers run the world.  Lazy cowards always put up with it.

It is largely liberal Jews that have protected us from the Zionists, Neocons, and Israeli right.  They are the ones who have followed this filth, and therefore they report on them.  Most of the good reporting has come from leftists and Jews.  If we relied on Prots and Catholics, we would have been sunk long ago.

However, Judaism suffers from a lot of the same weaknesses as Fundamentalism and Nazism.  And, intelligent smart Jews don’t seem to be willing to take this scum on.  This is much the same mistake that many Jews made as Hitler came to power.  Hannah Arendt made that clear.

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By Paracelsus, December 2, 2007 at 9:36 am Link to this comment

#117456 by for the poor

Some of the best exposes of Zionism had been written by Jews. Freeman, Shahak, Fagan, and Schoenmann have all contributed invaluable knowledge on the NWO and Israel.
I do not like the generalizations made.

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By for the poor, December 2, 2007 at 12:12 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#117432 by Paracelsus
Paracelsus,  John Hanks was correct except for being far too lenient in his assessment of the bullying entity calling itself “Israel.”  Any person with compassion is able to see a clear pattern in the nearly sixty years of torment and humiliation the jewish occupiers of Palestine have inflicted mercilessly on that impoverished population. The homes, land and other properties stolen from the residents have never been given even token payment. It is hard to imagine a race of humans existing which holds such utter contempt for the well-being of its neighbors.

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By John Hanks, December 1, 2007 at 10:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

No I didn’t do any scientific research.  Sometimes you don’t have to.  I know two Jewish Air America radio personalities (Thom Hartman and Jay Marvin) who refuse to deal with Neocons, Zionists or any other form of Israeli/Jewish subversion. They don’t say they won’t deal with the issues because they are Jewish.  They just say the issues are trivial or they just treat them with dead air.  Jews cover up for crooked Jews.  Catholics cover up for crooked Catholics.  Italians cover up for crooked Mafiosi.  Republicans cover up for crooked Republicans.

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By Paracelsus, December 1, 2007 at 8:25 pm Link to this comment

@ #117313 by Conservative Yankee


Calling Lewis spineless is the equivalent of labeling Albert Einstein “stupid”. Einstein was clever. Leo Szilard was a genius.


http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/einstein.html

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By Paracelsus, December 1, 2007 at 8:14 pm Link to this comment

@ #117294 by cyrena

“At least it wouldn’t hurt. Knowledge rarely does.”

Kinda like this:

http://johnlewis.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=31

His Civil Rights bona fides have become a mort main of his career. This dead hand has given his path a dangerous inertia. Someone has to attend to the wheel house before we run aground on the shoals.
Recall please that German Reichstag in the early 30’s (before ‘33) was filled with well intentioned legislators who had given civil liberties to homosexuals. They were a liberal institution deadlocked between mainstream conservatives and mainstream liberals. How many of those enlightened beings of 1920’s and early 1930’s are still remembered for their high minded and liberal attitudes? I cannot recall any. John Lewis will be the same sort of footnote if he and like minded legislators take the “moderate path.”

I am reminded of Barry Goldwater, “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the face of tyranny is no virtue.”

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By Paracelsus, December 1, 2007 at 7:55 pm Link to this comment

@ #117412 by John Hanks

“What bothers me most about Jews in general is their seeming willingness to excuse or cover the criminal acts of Zionists.”

I suppose you asked each and every one them about the criminal acts of the Israeli government, and everyone of them to the last of them excused and covered for Israel. I am sure you used the most rigorous science to come up this recondite and unqualified conclusion?

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By John Hanks, December 1, 2007 at 4:49 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

What bothers me most about Jews in general is their seeming willingness to excuse or cover the criminal acts of Zionists.  Zionists are basically Israeli Nazis.  They are triumphalist, ruthless, and willing to commit any crime in order to support their cause.  Anyone who doesn’t agree with them is considered a sub-human animal.  All they care about is force and fraud.  Why do Jews allow this vicious movement to determine their priorities?  I would no more defend these monsters than I would defend the Ku Klux Klan.

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By Paracelsus, December 1, 2007 at 3:02 pm Link to this comment

#117313 by Conservative Yankee

GW Bush, and Dick Cheney represents tyranny and untold cruelty to millions of human beings. They represent an authoritarian and despotic trend. We will not have a humanitarian, constitutional republic.

I will continue to bother, to harass, to scream ‘No!’ to Lewis’s staff. I care not a whit for Lewis’s Civil Rights past as he supports tyranny and oppression, right now!! We are facing a burning house and Lewis is playing at elder statesman. This is a most sinful, evil and baleful vanity. He might as well have not been a Civil Rights leader for it will not matter. With the police brutality and suppression that he lets pass by without a thought to impeach and criminally prosecuting the Bush administration, it would have been best if it his mama just had a good douche. He will be made a dumb and moot note of history. No one will remember his past good deeds as he is convicted by his cowardly inaction now. Does any remember the past nobility of Hindenburg? Does anybody give a rat turd for Petain’s bravery in the Great War? Are the liberal moderates of the Menchovik Party remember? And yet weren’t there advocates saying do not impose upon such a noble soul. It would not be wise. For shame should you should say that about him given his earlier sacrifices in the Great Humanitarian Cause. There is nary a German liberal politician of Wiemar Germany that is fondly remembered. Some esoteric sort might comment upon Rathenau, the JFK of that generation. I could give a shit about Lewis’s great sacrifices as America heads into the a gulag police state. Remembering his past triumphs won’t make the Halliburton prison repast of thin soup and hard bread anymore savory. All his speechifying on this commemoration or that new building will not erase the present fact that he acts as a vainglorious idiot, and I call him as often as my rage pushes me to remind him of that fact.

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By Conservative Yankee, December 1, 2007 at 6:45 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The idea that John Lewis is “spineless” because he picks his battles using his vast knowledge of how the system works is a concept born from a lack of knowledge. 

Calling Lewis spineless is the equivalent of labeling Albert Einstein “stupid”

Lewis, and the people of his era and persuasion, stood up against the Klan, the phony law, and the US system of apartheid. They put themselves in harms way for the future of their children….see anyone of that stature today?

AND if you think the “danger” was illusionary or transitory, check to see where the following folks are today and how they got there:

Martin Luther King
Malcolm X
Viola Liuzzo
Medger Evers
Denise McNair
Cynthia Wesley
Carole Robertson
Addie Mae Collins
Mickey Schwerner
James Cheney
Andrew Goodman

....and hundreds of other “uppity” folks who didn’t warrant even an obituary in the Old South’s white-owned press.

John Lewis “spineless?”
  WOW what unmitigated ignorance!!!

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By cyrena, December 1, 2007 at 4:34 am Link to this comment

#116876 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/29 at 2:02 pm
• 
#116826 by Yani on 11/29 at 9:58 am: “There goes cyrena redefining the definition if “is” again. Your just flat wrong. Amy Goodman is a worthless wanker… your too ignorant to even frame things in the proper context. You have no idea what Zionism is…”

•  Actually, cyrnea’s comment you whined about but failed to address were from ‘lilmamzer’.

Douglas,
Thanks for pointing this out to Yani. (and me as well) I couldn’t figure out what the hell he was talking about.

Yani, please try to pay more attention, (other than to me). Here again, maybe I should be flattered, but I’m not. I can manage to bring on enough attacks from the crazies all by myself, so there’s no need to attribute anything to me, that actually comes from someone else. OK. Just try to keep up.

#116854 by Paracelsus

Paracelsus,

This is a link to something that I came across on one of the websites that I access daily, (for about the past 4 or so years I guess). This is not new information for me, just because I’ve been around a while, and so I’m familiar with John Lewis and his history in the Civil Rights Movement here in the USA.

I know how disgusted you are with his failure to kick Dick Bush out of the White House, and of course there’s that disgust that you also have because he’s failed to prosecute and deport all of these ‘illegal aliens’.

However, I guess he’s just only one dude after all, and his own history has pretty much ALWAYS been sealed in the concept of civil and human rights. It would appear that he’s still pretty much devoted to that. If you (or others) weren’t aware of that, this link might provide some insight.

Then, maybe in his NEXT life, he’ll be able to do all of that housecleaning at the white house, that you have lined up for him. But, if you don’t wanna wait that long, maybe you could just jump in and do it yourself, or even ask for help from a few others. I don’t think John Lewis is running a one-man operation, but it IS clear that he’s still very committed to his original concerns, and they ARE in fact STILL issues on the plate in YOUR state.

So, I’m really certain, (at least on this) that John Lewis is not ‘spineless’. If he didn’t lose his spine 30 years ago from the multiple beatings and other injuries that he suffered, he’s not likely to have lost it now.

And, if you’re NOT familiar with the history of the Civil Rights Movement in your adopted country, (and the ENOURMOUS part that John Lewis took in that) then this would be a good opportunity to learn a little bit about it.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/112807A.shtml

At least it wouldn’t hurt. Knowledge rarely does.

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By WSmart, November 30, 2007 at 3:41 pm Link to this comment

http://play.napster.com/track/10020405

  True.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 30, 2007 at 2:40 pm Link to this comment

#116932 by SaraB on 11/29 at 8:15 pm: “...I know what Zionism is. There was a time when the rest of the world called it terrorism. I know what anti semitism is. It’s horror….”

No, SaraB, “antisemitism”  was horror - its now an excuse to berate people who are opposed to the hypocrisies of Zionism and the expansionist policies of the Israeli state.

Thus the lilmamzers and yanis and Howards and so forth trade on it here. It makes them feel so righteous in their utter misinterpretations (if they actually have any) of religion/god/jehovah/whatever as well as their pathetic misunderstandings of politics and the ‘art of war’.

In effect, it has become a licence for covert hostility and prejudice towards all who would oppose them in their glorious undertaking of bringing about a third world war and thus the final solution to all of their anxieties and dishonest existence as ‘returned refugees’ (they are neither!).

Yes, there is/was prejudice against or hatred of Jews - known as antisemitism - but it has been cleverly manipulated by the survivors who wished to legitimise their actions as violent landgrabbers as #116937 by Paracelsus describes. Thus, the myth goes on but mainly in the minds of those who perceive some benefit from it.

Anyway, this topic was about Iraq and Arabs, not Israel or Jews. We can thank the agendas of some who wish to be vocal at the time of the Annapolis  summit that we are now being diverted into more and more precious garbage on the glories of Israel and the Jews in this and several other topics on Truthdig, uhh.

Apart from the idiot Texan Christian Zionists and the blind fools of Chrisitanity who insist on worshipping a Judeo version of Christianity, everybody hates them all the more for their lies and deceptions. That is not “antisemitism”, though, but the desire for TRUTH and FREEDOM.

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By Robert B. Elliott, November 29, 2007 at 10:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Who wants impeachment more than the Democrats? It’s the Republicans, stupid! They are waiting anxiously for the Democrats to get going, so that they can get on board. They can’t wait to get Bush, Cheney, et al out, because of the irreparable harm they have done to the party and to the country. Trent Lott and the other rats who are deserting the ship have seen what’s coming and they don’t want to be around when the dodo hits the fan and when the overwhelming facts demand a yes vote by a majority of their own party.
While the top Dems seem to think that votes should be counted before prosecuting criminals for war crimes, profiteering, violations of international laws and the US Constitution, the freight train is barrelling down the track and impeachment is inevitable. They will be forced to start backing the move when they recognize how many people on both sides of the fence want to see justice served.

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By Paracelsus, November 29, 2007 at 9:46 pm Link to this comment

@ #116895 by lilmamzer


“Zionism is the belief and movement in support of the restoration and now the preservation of the Jewish national homeland, which has adopted the name Israel. It is self-determination for the Jewish people, and it is one of the best things to have come out of the late 19th and 20th centuries.”

http://takingaimradio.com/hhz/ch02.htm

Please follow the above link. You will be given a truthful account of Zionism.

“Cecil B. de Mille’s Samson and Delilah was more than a Hollywood biblical romance about the perfidy of woman and the virtue of manly strength. It carried, as well, the authoritarian values of the novel from which it was adopted, Vladimir Jabotinsky’s Samson, which trumpeted the necessity of brute force if the Israelites were to conquer the Philistines.

  “Shall I give our people a message from you?” Samson thought for a while, and then said slowly: “The first word is iron. They must get iron. They must give everything they have for iron – their silver and wheat, oil and wine and flocks, even their wives and daughters. All for iron! There is nothing in the world more valuable than iron.” [28]

Jabotinsky, the siren of “an iron wall through which the local population can not break through” and of “the iron law of every colonizing movement ... armed force”, found his call echoed in major Zionist forays against victim peoples in the decades to come.

Israel’s current Minister of Defense, Yitzhak Rabin, launched the 1967 war as Chief of Staff with “Iron Will”. As Prime Minister in 1975 and 1976 he declared the policy of Hayad Barzel, the “Iron Hand”, in the West Bank. Over 300,000 Palestinians were to pass through Israeli prisons under conditions of sustained and institutionalized torture exposed by the Sunday Times of London and denounced by Amnesty International.”

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By SaraB, November 29, 2007 at 9:15 pm Link to this comment

I didn’t really believe there were people like lilmamzer and yani out there, or 1drees for that matter. What does Zionism or anit-semitism have to do with this disucssion? I know what Zionism is. There was a time when the rest of the world called it terrorism. I know what anti semitism is. It’s horror. My son is in the world only because his grandmother was rescued from the ‘final solution’ and raised in a British orphanage. If opposition to torture is a leftist agenda then the left is the best protector of any minority, jewish, muslim or anything else. (Though it would not be the best protector of Zionism or Jihad/terrorism either.) But I can’t see that it is a leftist agenda. It’s a human agenda - isn’t it?

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By lilmamzer, November 29, 2007 at 4:04 pm Link to this comment

#116826 by Yani on 11/29 at 9:58 am

And to you anti-Semites crying about Zionism, your too ignorant to even frame things in the proper context. You have no idea what Zionism is and you are just using this as a vehicle to support anti Semitism. Hate them all you want, they are Gods children and have survived and will continue to survive much worse than you leftist nazi lovers.

Well, Yani, if they know what Zionism is and continue to post such hateful rhetoric, they are willfully and deliberately ignorant as well as dishonest. If they don’t know what it is they are guilty of being intellectually lazy and recycling lame and malicious lies.

Zionism is the belief and movement in support of the restoration and now the preservation of the Jewish national homeland, which has adopted the name Israel. It is self-determination for the Jewish people, and it is one of the best things to have come out of the late 19th and 20th centuries.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 29, 2007 at 3:02 pm Link to this comment

#116826 by Yani on 11/29 at 9:58 am: “There goes cyrena redefining the definition if “is” again. Your just flat wrong. Amy Goodman is a worthless wanker…   your too ignorant to even frame things in the proper context. You have no idea what Zionism is…”

How do women “wank”, Yani? Maybe you are the “malaka”, eh?

“In modern Greek, the word malakas is used metaphorically in everyday speech to define the individual that uses absolutely no common sense, who instead repeats the same mistakes many times over, while maintaining an attitude of self-righteousness. The relation is probably derived by the common notion according to which excessive masturbation harms the brain…..” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malakas

Actually, cyrnea’s comment you whined about but failed to address were from ‘lilmamzer’.

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By Paracelsus, November 29, 2007 at 12:31 pm Link to this comment

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/28534


Congressman John Lewis Loses Spine
Submitted by davidswanson on Thu, 2007-11-08 18:28. Congress | Impeachment

Rep Lewis in the following note pushes the idea that impeachment is about anger and vengeance:

Thank you very much for writing me about the possible impeachment of
President Bush and Vice-President Cheney. I appreciate hearing from you
and having the benefit of your views.

It was in 2005 that I first voiced my willingness to explore the filing of
articles of impeachment against President Bush. His actions since then, as
well as those of Vice-President Cheney and others in his Administration,
have reinforced my position.

I have heard, read and felt your anger toward this Administration. Many of
their actions are inexcusable and stain the moral fabric of America. We
were drawn into an unjust conflict in Iraq on false pretenses-on lies. We
were told it would make us safer. We were told we had to attack them
before they attacked us. We know now that we are not safer. We know now
that there were no Weapons of Mass Destruction. We know now that they did
not have the military resources to attack us nor the inclination.

So, I understand why you are angry-I am angry too! But we must control our
anger, if only for the soldiers. We must bring them home now. An attempt
to impeach the President or Vice-President would waste valuable time and
cost precious lives. Every day we delay in bringing our soldiers home,
every day we spend quarreling about spending or procedure or even
impeachment, is a day wasted and more soldiers perish.

As we approach the eighth year of George W. Bush’s Presidency, we must
consider what is in the best interest of our nation. We have much work to
do, much to repair, much to fix. We must push vengeance from out hearts
and rebuild the American Presidency as an office that is once again
respected the world over. Most importantly, we must restore the American
Presidency to an office that is respected here at home.

I will never waiver in my efforts to preserve the honor and integrity of
the United States as well as the rights and privileges afforded every
American under the Constitution. Our time is too precious to work for
vengeance when we must now work to rebuild and bring our soldiers home.

Again, thank you for offering your opinion on this issue and I hope you
will continue to contact me on other issues of importance to you. Also,
please visit my website at http://www.house. gov/johnlewis/ for more
information.

Sincerely,

John Lewis
Member of Congress

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By Paracelsus, November 29, 2007 at 12:08 pm Link to this comment

@ #116775 by cyrena

You don’t call HR 1955 authoritarian. Did you read my last post carefully. Do you know what HR 1955 is?

http://critterology.blogspot.com/2007/10/declaration-of-war-vs-people.html

“Up until now the Government has primarily focused on people who were directly connected to terrorist organizations. Those investigated and accused ranged from foreign aide organizations to a university professor in South Florida. Although the majority of cases have ended in mistrial, some speculate the total number of ‘Black Listed’ Americans to be somewhere in the ballpark of 770,000. That was before the Government considered its own Citizens to be Terrorists.

Once this bill passes through the Senate and is signed into Law by the President, it will no longer be safe to speak out against the Government. Any word spoken across telephone lines, or written and recorded on the Internet, could potentially be scrutinized by the Department of Homeland Security, and lead more innocent victims to secret prisons to be subjected to violent acts of torture.”

As to illegal aliens, every time I travel into Atlanta I see dozens of homeless, unemployed black men in the streets. How about Lewis doing some work for the home team?

“Have you ever considered a less radical and more practical solution to your problems of illegal aliens? For instance, have you ever approached any of the many conservative red-necks in your state about the fact that they keep breaking the law by HIRING these alleged illegal people?”

The people who hire illegal aliens aren’t exactly rednecks. The rednecks you speak of I know to be unemployed in the construction trades. How about comprehensive enforcement? How you know that I haven’t asked Lewis to make more stringent laws against employers? You assume too much ignorance on my part. Why is that?

BTW, I am not from South Africa, “Stereotypes Are Us”.

“Then maybe chop off their fingers and toes before you deport them?”

Nope, I am not a DLC Democrat.

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By Yani, November 29, 2007 at 10:58 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Female genitalia are not mutilated AS A MATTER OF COURSE” by cyrena on 11/29 at 12:21 am

Not True.
There goes cyrena redefining the definition if “is” again. Your just flat wrong. Amy Goodman is a worthless wanker with a singular focus on Bush. He positions are overtly bias and lack any journalism credibility. If you agree with her, well you too are a worthless wanker who can do nothing more than argue the finer points of “is”.

An to you anti-Semites crying about Zionism, your too ignorant to even frame things in the proper context. You have no idea what Zionism is and you are just using this as a vehicle to support anti Semitism. Hate them all you want, they are Gods children and have survived and will continue to survive much worse than you leftist nazi lovers.

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By John Hanks, November 29, 2007 at 9:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

If you feel anxious or angry around someone, you can bet that they are toxic and usually Republican.  Your feelings are your radar.  They aren’t always liars and bullies.  They will often make impossible moral demands using stuff to cause useless guilt.  The whole point is to create demoralization.

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By cyrena, November 29, 2007 at 3:48 am Link to this comment

#116716 by Paracelsus

....“John Lewis did vote ‘aye’ on the Jane Harman “Prevention of Home Terrorism Act”. I think that ever since I pushed him hard to impeach Bush, he has turned authoritarian. There were issues on illegal aliens. He wanted to forgive them. I wanted them prosecuted and deported”...

No Paracelsus,

I don’t think that John Lewis has become the least bit ‘authoritarian’ and I suspect that you might not recognize a good thing when you see it. It would appear from the above comments, that you know little or nothing about John Lewis’ history, which would explain a bit more about why he might not be in any hurry to solve the immigration problem ‘YOUR” way.

Have you ever considered a less radical and more practical solution to your problems of illegal aliens? For instance, have you ever approached any of the many conservative red-necks in your state about the fact that they keep breaking the law by HIRING these alleged illegal people?

And, do you have any real understanding about the concept of ‘authoritarian’? DIdn’t you say you were from South Africa? Surely you would know the difference between a John Lewis, and an ‘authoritarian’ unless of course you don’t know anything about Mr. Lewis, and can’t recognize yourself as an ‘authoritarian’, with the full force of retribution and punitive ideology behind it. Gee, not enough to just deport them, eh? We should prosecute them all as well. Or, John Lewis should, since you told him to. And, he should work that in with the shurb’s impeachment as well, never mind that he’s only one of 535 peeps without that kind of single handed AUTHORITY. Would you like to be present at each and every one of these prosecutions? Then maybe chop off their fingers and toes before you deport them?

•  I am afraid that mainstream liberals have this crazed militia man phobia when we hit certain issues that are just bedrock values. Talk about a false paradigm.

No, I wouldn’t call it a false paradigm at all. Instead, I’d say that you come across as a crazed militia man, and I’m not given to phobias. I bet John Lewis is wondering how much it would cost to make you just go away.

Why did you leave South Africa anyway?  McVey Jr..

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By 1drees, November 29, 2007 at 3:44 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It is an age old ZIONIST tactic to attack any person that speaks the truth and provides good logics and points and they always keep the attack personal and the RAT called Lillmamzer is doing just tht, being a ZIONIST STOOGE it is merely fulfilling is duty by calling certain women WHORES coz they dont buy into the ZIONIST bullshit.
Now the Israeli Lobby wants Iran attacked and folowed by syria nd to get the AMERICAN SHEEPLE to get there they will of course resort to harrasment & abuse.
Lets admit it that Democrats did not do what they promised to do BECAUSE THEY BECAME ISRAELI/ZIONIST STOOGES TOO.
Now Lets Hope that the next PRESIDENT SELECTED does not succumb to the same ZIONIST disease. WATCH OUT FOR AIPAC & ITS LIKES AND TRY TO GET A NORMAL HUMAN INTO THE WHITE HOUSE.
BOYCOTT EVERYTHING ISRAELI!
BOYCOTT EVERYTHING ZIONIST FOR THE SAKE OF HUMANITY & TO GIVE HUMANITY A CHANCE TO LIVE.
BOYCOTT EVERYTHING ISRAELI! BOYCOTT EVERYTHING ZIONIST!

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By cyrena, November 29, 2007 at 1:21 am Link to this comment

#116638 by lilmamzer

•  Where is Amy Goodman and so-called “Democracy Now” when female genitalia are mutilated as a matter of course throughout the Arab and Muslim world?
WRONG lilmamzer. Female genitalia are not mutilated AS A MATTER OF COURSE, throughout the Arab and Muslim world, so stop making all of these broad generalities.

Yes, it DOES happen, there’s certainly no getting around that. And, addressing that, (among a multitude of other issues) is not an easy task for the Western arrogance of universalism to conquer. Can any westerner possibly find such practices allowable? Well of course not. OTOH, we also can’t tell other people in other cultures what to do, just because WE say so.

There are multitudes of NGO’s at work in countries near and far, including multiple countries in Africa and the Middle East. Some of them do good work. Others of course, do not. Clearly, YOU would not be among those who could have any sort of positive influence.

Over time, this particular practice IS diminishing, because there are in fact people who have been able to adapt a position that works, at least some of the time, in some of the places. So, since you aren’t a part of that effort, you should probably just shut up, and not worry about what Amy Goodman is or isn’t doing, unless you happen to be paying her salary or donating money to any one of her many efforts. Somehow, I don’t think that’s what you’re about.
Meantime, I just ran across a piece the other day, that explains in excellent detail, how Afghanistan is now under the near TOTAL control of the Taliban. So much for our military fixing THAT all up.

Remember how we supposedly had them all scurrying across the borders like fleeing rats 6 years ago?
Well, they’re BACK!! (or, maybe they never left).

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By cyrena, November 28, 2007 at 10:30 pm Link to this comment

#116731 by SaraB

•  I can see that my shoving in such irrelevancies as regretting the kind of society we’ll get if we use means like torture to get it or suggesting that ends don’t justify means (whereas means do predetermine the final outcome), must have been very annoying. So I apologize for the intrusion.
P.S. Can anyone tell me where I might find a discussion on the actual issue?

SaraB,

Hang in there girl. You just got an initiation from the hazardous and toxic elements of the blog here. Not a whole lot we can do about it, other than to just be aware that they exist, and that they DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT represent the overall thinking of this blog. So, now that you know, you can just blow them off. It’s the only way. Otherwise, you waste time and energy dealing with insanity, and you know how unproductive that is. We put up with it when we have to, (like with people we know and love, who can’t help their insanity) but on this blog…the crazies don’t get any passes. Ignore them. They’ll go away, and then come back, and then hopefully go away again. Lilmamzer is off her meds again or something.

Now, on the actual issue of torture, I could load you down with more than you want, but probably you’ve already been through that. We know that it’s the ultimate of absolute prohibitions, and there are dozens of laws in place to cement that. So, if there ever was an issue that CAN allow for absolute universalism, it’s torture. It’s NEVER OK, at ANY time, under ANY circumstances.

That said, I don’t honestly know what the alleged Democrat position is on it. I worried myself that Feinstein and Schumer were willing to confirm Mukasey, who apparently thinks it’s just fine to continue breaking the ultimate universal prohibition against torture. Barack Obama did state in his most recent address in Iowa, that torture was NEVER acceptable in any form. But, enough other Dem senators voted to comfirm Muckasy, so I don’t know what to think.

I’ll try to think of some other places where there is active discourse among sane people on this. Meantime, just keep reading Amy Goodman, and if you have time, you can try to sort through the obvious garbage here, and find some other sane voices as well. There are several, but I admit that you got caught by one of the demons, before anyone else had a chance to jump in and allow you to know that the whole thing is not so poisoned.

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By Paracelsus, November 28, 2007 at 10:14 pm Link to this comment

@ #116731 by SaraB

I do not find Amy credible not because she is left wing but because she is supported by foundation money, therefore she has been domesticated. As to the torture issue, I am eager to return to constitutional government. Imperial governments as a rule will violate any law, any humane custom, any time tried tradition to get whatever they want. In time the American system will be too bankrupted morally and financially to rule the world, then it will be China’s turn, and they have no qualms about torture and summary death sentences. I hope the the collapse does not give the elites a perfect setting for a year zero program of liquidating the American population as was done in Cambodia. At $200 a barrel oil, food will be a formidable weapon.

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By SaraB, November 28, 2007 at 9:50 pm Link to this comment

I thought that the question in hand was the issue of torture and whether or not the Democrats had aligned themselves with a ‘pro-torture’ agenda. I had assumed that in attacking the author of this article as ‘left wing’ and therefore not credible (and all who agreed with her, actually), some of the posts here were obliquely defending the necessity of torture. An argument that should be heard though I’m unlikely to agree with it. But I’m starting to see that I was badly mistaken. This isn’t a discussion about the issue of torture at all. It’s a chance to get the proverbial ‘rocks off’ along the lines of: “Right, (thanks for the excuse of the article)... so she’s a lefty, (boo hiss) if you agree with her you’re a lefty (boo hiss), I’m a righty… now let’s get down to it.”

But right and left wing governments and ideologies have been responsible for disgusting, inhuman depradations and I have no inclination to got to bat for either one. I can see that my shoving in such irrelevancies as regretting the kind of society we’ll get if we use means like torture to get it or suggesting that ends don’t justify means (whereas means do predetermine the final outcome), must have been very annoying. So I apologize for the intrusion.
P.S. Can anyone tell me where I might find a discussion on the actual issue?

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By Paracelsus, November 28, 2007 at 9:44 pm Link to this comment

BTW, lilmamzer is Yiddish for a small, but mean son of a bitch.

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By Paracelsus, November 28, 2007 at 9:43 pm Link to this comment

#116636 by lilmamzer

“...terror-appeasing mouthpieces like Amy Goodman another platform to spread agitprop and apologetics for the likes of Sudan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Hamas, Hezbollah, and so many others.”

The above sounds like you are describing the longterm agenda for the Council on Foreign Relations. It is frightening. That is a lot of fortresses, err embassies to build, all because they won’t accept the elitists’ vision of democracies.

I want my country to come back to building things and creating real value. I think progress in this country is a merchandise trade surplus. Ithink that is a symbol of excellent foreign relations. I have no interest in Thomas Barnett’s gap, sorry, not his anal cavity, but his way of roping in disobedient nations who will not adopt our economic system.

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By Paracelsus, November 28, 2007 at 9:31 pm Link to this comment

#116636 by lilmamzer

“The American feminist movement has not taken one stand to support the women of Iraq, the women of Afghanistan, the women of Iran,” she said. “It is the United States Marines who have been doing the feminist work by liberating women and children around the world.”

As some who is sympathetic to the Robert Taft school of diplomacy, I do not want to send in the Marines to do social engineering. I think we do our best when we act as a good example to the world.

As to Africa, I have read accounts of misrule after the colonizers have left. Typically imposed solutions by humanitarian gun boat missions are heavily resented by the locals. They typically do their evil deeds as soon as the boss man has turned his attention else where. I have no illusions for Africa or the Middle East. It is not our mission to impose morality, good governance or banking systems upon them. I would like improve myself as an American. All this has the odor of old Progressive church ladies wanting to impose temperance on the working classes for moral uplift. Commerce and trade is the best improver of culture.

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By John Hanks, November 28, 2007 at 9:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Right-wingers use smears and insults because they are basically crooks or suckers for crooks.  Their so-called facts and ideas are totally shop worn and obsolete.  By the way, Communism espouses workers taking over their factories and running them.  Communism is not the phony baloney that right-wingers think it is.  Their idea of Communism is called state socialism - a system of totalitarianism that isn’t too different from what we have in the U.S. now.

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By Paracelsus, November 28, 2007 at 9:15 pm Link to this comment

@#116656 by lilmamzer is good

” i’m glad to see there is another Long Island Republican watching these unapologetic, uncircumcised Hitler-lovers.”

I am not sure what you mean by Hitler lovers, but this is one Jewish boy who wishes he was uncircumcised. I feel like I am viciously beating a woman’s woman with a small base ball bat that is crowned with pitifully small desert island of sensitivity. At one time a Jewish circumcised penis was likely a very, very, very dry martini with the tiniest hint vermouth as in just a little sliver of skin off the top just to make that that pervert Jehovah happy. Then Maimonides went all crazy on us. I think of him as the Wahabi of circumcisers. As to Hitler’s penile condition, he was a mono-orchid. Somehow I don’t think that speaks well of malformed penii. If you want to use the Hitler analogy in that context, be my guest.

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By Paracelsus, November 28, 2007 at 9:04 pm Link to this comment

@ #116710 by Robert Giacobbe

John Lewis did vote ‘aye’ on the Jane Harman “Prevention of Home Terrorism Act”. I think that ever since I pushed him hard to impeach Bush, he has turned authoritarian. There were issues on illegal aliens. He wanted to forgive them. I wanted them prosecuted and deported. He even changed his stance on FTA’s (Free Trade Agreements). He could be counte don to vote against FTA’s. His staff were annoyed with me already, so when I called to urge him to vote against the FTA on bilateral trade with Peru, he voted for it. I think he uses me as some sort of barometer of the fringe right, when all I want to be is a supporter of American industry, border enforcement and constitutional liberties. I am afraid I have made myself look like McVey on the border issues so like a ‘good liberal’ he vote yes on the Jane Harman “shut your mouth, you kook” bill, HR 1955. I am afraid that mainstream liberals have this crazed militia man phobia when we hit certain issues
that are just bedrock values. Talk about a false paradigm.

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By Paracelsus, November 28, 2007 at 8:52 pm Link to this comment

@ #116698 by Robert Giacobbe

“Anyone even remotely giving Chavez a pass looses all credibility for me.  She strikes me as a glassy-eyed, breathless zealot.”

@ #116616 by lilmamzer

“And I thought you were describing the brutality of the LEFT’S darlings: the incessant support on these pages and elsewhere of the brutal Iranian Islamist regime, the support of Hugo Chavez’s raping of Venezuelan civil rights, and of course the endless equivocating and pandering”

The one thing that bothers me about modern liberalism is the veneration of control freaks running Jacobite enterprises. Eleanor Roosevelt admired the work crews of the USSR looking all handsome in their military uniforms. David Rockefeller admired the efficiency of Maoist China. Such tyrannies have no use for a middle class. Of course there are always wealthy elites who are connected with government. There is never any freedom to take an idea and deploy into a profitable enterprise. With Chavez, I would consider him a patriot for Venezuela if he would just step down and let another government rule. I think the average Venezuelan might like to be encouraged to open up his own business. Not every Venezuelan can be an oil field worker. Definitely keep the infrastructure of a free school system, and all the rest. The problem is that there is not a common agreement among the elites and the levelers of the country to abide by a constitution. They want to cheat. They want a tyranny to impose their particular brand of an economic system.

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By Paracelsus, November 28, 2007 at 8:37 pm Link to this comment

On Cynthia McKinney’s Misdemeanors

@ #116698 by Robert Giacobbe

I lived in CM’s district until they moved it away from me. I now live in John Lewis’s district. No, I didn’t move.

I remember how her burly goon squad moved me away from her after I tried to engage her in debate on the illegal alien issue. She was a big supporter of shamnesty. This was the same day that I debated Isaac Hayes on the ethics of Scientology.

It seems that Cynthia was able to have Isaac Hayes flown to Decatur from Tennessee on petty cash.

Uppermost in Cynthia’s mind was improving the median income of blacks to at least parity with whites. Call me capricious and unfeeling, but being a white guy, I felt left out. The free trade regime of Third Way Democrats and internationalist Republicans made me feel left out. And perhaps I am a spoil sport, but I thought she was supposed to represent me as well.

Anyway I supported her because she was good about opening up 9-11 to investigation, and she was not an Israeli Firster. I think she could have been a fusion candidate for poor whites and poor blacks, but she is too much of a race politician for that.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 28, 2007 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

#116655 by lilmamzer on 11/28 at 3:04 pm: “...I don’t like whores (or anyone else) running interference for theocratic, despotic, misogynistic, war-mongering, terror-supporting and sponsoring regimes….”

Have you dun washed yo mouth out yet, lilmamzer?

So far, none of this garbage of yours has anything to do with what Amy Goodman is writing about…...

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Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 28, 2007 at 5:34 pm Link to this comment

Re #116665 by GHostrelm on 11/28 at 3:39 pm

“So, by your own contribution to the comments, doesnt that make you a crackpot as well?  you took the time to comment… lmao…”

About 15 seconds’ worth. Bye now.

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By purplewolf, November 28, 2007 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

#116638 lilmamzer:

Where were you when all of this was taking place?

Rather than try to put all the blame onto Amy Goodman and the so called “Democracy Now”, why don’t you ask yourself what you have done or not done lately to correct this. You are the type to complain and do nothing then criticize anything anyone else does when it is convenient to do so. It is a very small person who has to put someone else down to make themselves feel superior.

Oh and by the way, I always thought lilmamzer was of the male persuasion.

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By GHostrelm, November 28, 2007 at 4:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To Tony Wicher underneath… 

So, by your own contribution to the comments, doesnt that make you a crackpot as well?  you took the time to comment…  lmao…

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By John Hanks, November 28, 2007 at 4:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Amy Goodman is pretty good.  She sure gives right-wing filth a heart attack.

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By Don Minot, November 28, 2007 at 4:33 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Washington is run for the benefit those that run it… it isn’t about ideologies, it’s about “them” sustaining a cushy life style with all the fringes courtesy of the taxpayer. In public they talk the talk by “singing to their respective choirs” the Republican Party with it’s well-oiled media machine has been quite effective in getting the masses (asses?) to support them on purely emotional grounds… we the tax-paying electorate are merely commodities to be brokered by slick marketing specialists.. on Wall Street, at Wal mart, at the ballot box. The same marketing expertise that gets you to buy tampons and Tequila gets you to vote for their candidate. If the average person knew what I know, there would be a second revolution.  And for the same reasons that prevailed in 1776… reciting the same mantra:  No taxation without representation. Wake all you lemmings and stop being just “fodder” for the oligarchy’s economic well-being. Time to restore America to it’s former greatness. Won’t be easy.. need to abolish the electoral college first so all votes count equally vis-a-vis the popular vote. That one simple change will result in more fair elections and re-distribute the power locked up in the largest voting block the south which accounts for 35% of the electoral votes.  Thus a redneck vote is worth more than votes in other states. Thus propaganda assaults to win the “hearts and minds” in those states are very effective.  Thus, if Hitler were running.. he would win if he declared he had been born again, had “Jesus”  ate grits… liked country music and was a NASCAR fanatic. No other qualifications are required. In the “Bible Belt” noting else matters. That is why it is foolish for Democrats to put up non-redneck candidates. Only two Demorcats have won since JFK:  Carter and Clinton. Why? “Cuz they ou-ah boyz.”

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By SaraB, November 28, 2007 at 4:32 pm Link to this comment

Lilmamzer:
1. It is not you, but name calling in preference to answering specific points that I describe as intellectually impoverished. That is something which is universally recognized.
2. I have already told you that I abhor the Saudi regime not only because of the treatment of women but also because of the nightly executions in ‘chop-chop’ square and the barely disguised practice of human slavery. And I would hardly support NOW as a prolifer, would I? Is that clear enough for you?
3. You have simply reverted to excoriating the author of this piece because of her left wing sympathies in preference to presenting reasoned argument.

Do you have something say about the issue of torture? About whether the Democrats have sold out their own principles? About whether there is ever a case to be made for torture? Or is this forum merely a soap box for foam flecked polemics against the ‘left wing’. That’s a challenge, by the way. To have and hold and present a conviction because it is based on truth and not because it right wing or left wing. To hold it even when, horrible to think of, someone you cannot stand shares your viewpoint! The world is not a football game. America, the right or left wing is not a home team. What is true, what is right, what is human - these are all at stake in our world and the stakes are not served by replying to your opponent’s argument ‘whore’ (metaphorical or otherwise) and ‘bag lady’.

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By pseudon for #116653, November 28, 2007 at 4:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Lilmamzer has a forceful writing style which leads me to believe she is a man.”

Conservative-  How can my barbs be effective if no one understands them?  I’m feeling really bad about this.  whaaaaaaaaaa

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By Tony Wicher, November 28, 2007 at 4:17 pm Link to this comment

You guys are all a bunch of crackpots commenting on a stupid article. Get lives or jobs or something.

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By lilmamzer is good, November 28, 2007 at 4:09 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

lilmamzer-
thank you for setting straight all these soft,
Communist haters of America!

i’m glad to see there is another Long Island Republican watching these unapologetic, uncircumcised Hitler-lovers.

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By lilmamzer, November 28, 2007 at 4:04 pm Link to this comment

#116645 by pseudon on 11/28 at 1:32 pm

#116637 Douglas, I usually stick to policy comments but your response to the whore-hating Lilmamzer was good stuff.

I like whores just fine. But I don’t like whores (or anyone else) running interference for theocratic, despotic, misogynistic, war-mongering, terror-supporting and sponsoring regimes. And that is what Amy Goodman is.
============================================

Lilmamzer has a forceful writing style which leads me to believe she is a man.

LMFAO!!!!!!!! Chauvanist pig alert.

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By Conservative Yankee, November 28, 2007 at 3:51 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

116645 by pseudon on 11/28 at 1:32 pm

“Lilmamzer has a forceful writing style which leads me to believe she is a man.”

Gawd, That was a riot!!!  I’m still laughing. 

Gurls can’t be “forceful” or wear blue jeans!


You have nothing to worry about Lilmamzer there is no left left!

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By david, November 28, 2007 at 2:51 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

In answer to your question, no, the Democrats, just like the Republicans, have no shame.  These two parties are two sides of the same coin.  The coin of power.  Both parties have vested interests in keeping the occupation going and all the BS from Dems is just a smoke screen so that they too can steal from the taxpayer.  The Dems are vile creatures of the night who while giving lip service to the rule of law, actively work to destroy it.  I’m heading to Canada before the election is cancelled and Blackwater is directed to enforce the martial law that follows.  I advise you to do the same.  The Dems won’t help you, no one will help you.

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By pseudon, November 28, 2007 at 2:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#116637   Douglas, I usually stick to policy comments but your response to the whore-hating Lilmamzer was good stuff. Thanks for your response on the Japan nuking thing in other column. I will remain anon for this but have to point out that I have always liked whores, having spent many years in Asia. My only complaint is that they will always order a big chicken dinner, then only have a few bites and leave the rest for me to take home. Why can’t they just order a wing and a nice cold glass of mingo juice?

Lilmamzer has a forceful writing style which leads me to believe she is a man.

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By lilmamzer, November 28, 2007 at 2:16 pm Link to this comment

#116637 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/28 at 1:07 pm


This article doesn’t seem to be about any such thing, lilmamzer. You are just making this all up to suit your own deranged agenda, uhh.

Not to you, Chalmers. Your mind isn’t agile enough, apparently, to understand that an article’s merit is inseparably tied to the credibility of its author.

And what does “uhh” mean? You write that all the time. Stop that. It’s annoying.
=========================

Now, just pretent that I’m your grandmother and answer politely…..... you are starting to sound like a dried-up old whore!?!?

How quickly you drop your arguments and run away. Now you like dropping the w-word??? Do you have a spine, Chalmers?

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By lilmamzer, November 28, 2007 at 2:09 pm Link to this comment

...continuing from the previous post -

Where was Amy Goodman and so-called “Democracy Now” when the Taliban were beating women in the streets and refusing to allow any females at any age to learn to read and write, let alone train for any profession?

Where is Amy Goodman and so-called “Democracy Now” when female genitalia are mutilated as a matter of course throughout the Arab and Muslim world?

Where is Amy Goodman and so-called “Democracy Now” when your hero Hugo Chavez cozies up to Ahmadinejad of Iran, whose regime represses its women and funds the most brutal acts of terror around the world?

Where is Amy Goodman and so-called “Democracy Now” when the dictator of Syria keeps assasinating freely-elected Lebanese leaders such as Rafiq Hariri?

Where is Amy Goodman and and so-called “Democracy Now” when the illegitimate regimes of the entire Arab and Muslim world (with the lone exception of Turkey) routinely publish bigotry and hate-filled exhortations to violence in state-owned media?

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 28, 2007 at 2:07 pm Link to this comment

#116636 by lilmamzer on 11/28: “...terror-appeasing mouthpieces like Amy Goodman another platform to spread agitprop and apologetics for the likes of Sudan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Hamas, Hezbollah, and so many others….”

This article doesn’t seem to be about any such thing, lilmamzer. You are just making this all up to suit your own deranged agenda, uhh.

Now, just pretent that I’m your grandmother and answer politely…..... you are starting to sound like a dried-up old whore!?!?

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By lilmamzer, November 28, 2007 at 2:01 pm Link to this comment

SaraB - here’s an item fresh off the wire, which highlights the left’s appalling hypocrisy and willfull blindness towards human rights abuses by their chosen champions.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313426,00.html

In Sudan today, a British teacher was arrested and will likely be beaten for naming a student’s teddy bear “Muhammad” at the child’s suggestion.

Here in the US, former National Organization of Woman (NOW) LA Chapter president Tammy Bruce criticized the organization thusly:

“We have a duty to make a difference for women around the world,” Bruce said. “The supposed feminist establishment is refusing to take a position in this regard because they have no sensibility of what is right anymore. They’re afraid of offending people. They are bound by political correctness.”

“The American feminist movement has not taken one stand to support the women of Iraq, the women of Afghanistan, the women of Iran,” she said. “It is the United States Marines who have been doing the feminist work by liberating women and children around the world.”

And she is right. NOW is emblematic of the hypocrisy and willfill blindness of the left to the worst human rights abusers in the world. And this website is published specifically to give terror-appeasing mouthpieces like Amy Goodman another platform to spread agitprop and apologetics for the likes of Sudan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Hamas, Hezbollah, and so many others.

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By lilmamzer, November 28, 2007 at 1:40 pm Link to this comment

#116633 by SaraB on 11/28 at 12:30 pm

But my ‘label’ if there were one, is utterly irrelevant. truth and lies, humanity and inhumanity do not change because you can find a convenient epithet for the person describing them.

Unless, of course, you are the one looking to use a convenient epithet. To wit:

Any labels applied to YOU are irrelevant, so you say, but then you go on and excoriate me as “intellectually impoverished”.

Such typical leftist hypocrisy.

Welcome to Truth<strike>Dig</strike> Crap. You fit right in.

Oh, by the way, that Venezuelan dictator you confessed to liking makes common cause with the mullahs of Iran. And we all know how they treat their women. When they’re not stoning them to death for beings the victims of rape, what else do you think they do? Care to do any research? Or will that upset your carefully crafted little ideological apple cart?

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By SaraB, November 28, 2007 at 1:30 pm Link to this comment

Ah, but I do protest the Saudi dictatorship, especially the promotion of human slavery. I do object to the treatment of the Palestinians as well as the tactics of Hezbollah. I’m afraid I do not fit neatly into any acceptable or unacceptable grouping being as much pro-life as I am pro everything else that acknowledges our humanity, freedom, empowerment, freedom from rape, torture, illegal wars etc. But my ‘label’ if there were one, is utterly irrelevant. truth and lies, humanity and inhumanity do not change because you can find a convenient epithet for the person describing them. Your problem, if I can call it that, is that you cannot distinguish between persons and the ‘irresistable’, if intellectually impoverished, personal response of name calling and issues and arguments.

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By el mexi, November 28, 2007 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

the “democrats” ?
what “democrats” ?
I don’t see any of that sort.
They’re all neo-con republocrats owned by the Zionist terrorists.

If there were any moral and integrity left over in the USA, they would restore some dignity to the word “patriots” by decapitating the USA, from White House to Congress, they all should be behind bars in orange jump-suits, together with all their lobbyists, in a prison called “green zone” in Baghdad, guarded by the Iraqi population.

Who can do it? Those whom constitutional duty it is to do it: the US military.

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By lilmamzer, November 28, 2007 at 12:49 pm Link to this comment

#116626 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/28 at 11:44 am

Having a problem with your mouth again, lilmamzer? You should go wash it out with soap!!!

What are you, anyway, a prissy dried-up old woman? Amy Goodman’s grandmother?

The “w” word ruffles your feathers, but the Arab world’s support of the genocide in Darfur by Arab terror militias isn’t even worthy of mention? What is wrong with you, Chalmers?

Amy Goodman makes a career out of whitewashing the crimes of darlings of the left.

She has blood on her hands.

That makes her a whore. A left-wing hack media whore.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 28, 2007 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment

#116625 by lilmamzer on 11/28: “Goodman is a whore….. She is a shill and a mouthpiece ....she’s not just a regular old whore. That makes her a whore among whores…. she looks like a bag lady, too…”

Having a problem with your mouth again, lilmamzer? You should go wash it out with soap!!!

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By lilmamzer, November 28, 2007 at 12:29 pm Link to this comment

#116622 by SaraB on 11/28 at 11:02 am

Gosh, I hadn’t realized that the support of those powerless to do anything whatever (just liking Chavez’s ambition for instance!) could be equated with the power of those who can give, and have given, the orders that killed thousands of civilians and soldiers, violated and removed constitutional rights and rewarded mind boggling greed, pillage and the enjoyment of cruelty.

Go ahead, admire Chavez’s “ambition” all you want. That’s a weak euphemism for dictatorial usurpation of power, by the way. And it makes you look naive and ideologically blindered. If killing of civilians and denial of rights is what bothers you, why aren’t you campaigning against the Saudi terror-theocrats? And the Iranian mullahs? And the Palestinian Arab terror gangs supported by both the Saudis and the Iranians? And why aren’t you protesting against Hezbollah for the same crimes? And why aren’t you railing against the abuses of Vladimir Putin and those of the dictator of Belarus? The darlings of the Left are making you look very, very bad.
==================================

And I wonder if, in the light of your descriptives of “whore” and “bag lady” you might want to examine your own reasoned arguments and see whether, in fact, your visceral reactions are the result of what you would like to believe being challenged by what your own basic humanity is telling you?

Goodman is a whore, metaphorically speaking. She is a shill and a mouthpiece for the terror-appeasing far-left. So she’s not just a regular old whore. That makes her a whore among whores.

And she looks like a bag lady, too, but I don’t hold that against her nearly as much as I do her immoral career choices.

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By SaraB, November 28, 2007 at 12:02 pm Link to this comment

Gosh, I hadn’t realized that the support of those powerless to do anything whatever (just liking Chavez’s ambition for instance!) could be equated with the power of those who can give, and have given, the orders that killed thousands of civilians and soldiers, violated and removed constitutional rights and rewarded mind boggling greed, pillage and the enjoyment of cruelty. And I wonder if, in the light of your descriptives of “whore” and “bag lady” you might want to examine your own reasoned arguments and see whether, in fact, your visceral reactions are the result of what you would like to believe being challenged by what your own basic humanity is telling you?

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By lilmamzer, November 28, 2007 at 11:37 am Link to this comment

#116590 by oregoncharles on 11/28 at 9:09 am

At this point, the likeliest is Cynthia McKinney, the former Georgia congresswoman.  She’s running hard for the nomination, with a promise to be on all 51 state ballots.  Her history of heroic integrity is second to none.

Cynthia McKinney will bury the Greens if she runs for them on the ballots. McKinney is an unprincipled hack and a political whore.

I’m so glad she’s out of Congress. Her appearance as a Green candidate only signifies her descent into complete irrelevance.

Good riddance.

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By lilmamzer, November 28, 2007 at 11:34 am Link to this comment

#116596 by SaraB on 11/28 at 9:33 am

Those leftist hacks just don’t get, do they? If you want freedom, democracy and civilized society you have to take away people’s freedoms, power, right to information, privacy to get it. And you sometimes have to use brutal uncivilized behavior (illegal wars, blatant propaganda/lies, petty revenge even when it amounts to treason,

And I thought you were describing the brutality of the LEFT’S darlings: the incessant support on these pages and elsewhere of the brutal Iranian Islamist regime, the support of Hugo Chavez’s raping of Venezuelan civil rights, and of course the endless equivocating and pandering…......

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By Bill Blackolive, November 28, 2007 at 11:20 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Indeed, Amy, you have a lever to pull, in 9/11.  Please take a look at patriotsquestion9/11 and see the hundreds of authority knowing 9/11 is inside work, including witnesses, firemen etc.  Look, you have politicians, some running for president, admitting there is coverup.  You cannot lose by now, in mention of a coverup of 9/ll. There is a coverup, why is there coverup.  Good grief.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 28, 2007 at 11:02 am Link to this comment

#116590 by oregoncharles on 11/28: “And of course the Democrats have no shame:  they sold that to the Republicans a long time ago…..  Australia’s preference voting, which we could have here, is one reason.  But next year, sheer disgust with the major parties…...”

Thank you for your kind words, oregoncharles. I mentioned that because the US Democrats are on a path to self-destruction. But then, so too are the Republicans. As both are major parties though, they will both survive as they represent the fantasies and illusions of the mainstream of voters.

But much will change, even if slowly, and its not waiting for the election in a year’s time. It is happening now! Australia now accepting Kyoto and climate change imperatives as well as a more independent non-Neocon relationship with Asia will add pressure to the Bush regime for change.

As with the Australian Democrats, selling out to an opposing party in power for some mere priveleges or for one’s perceived political survival ultimately brings disaster and utter failure. As this is a presidential election only, many Democrats in congress and in the senate will eventually pay the price later.

Again, as with the Australian Labor party now just elected, the US Democrats have had to go find someone credible as a leader in order to have any chance next year. Setting Hillary and Obama against each other is hardly clever but at least they have these people now who both have the potential to win.

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By David Seager, November 28, 2007 at 10:48 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It’s time to acknowledge that the Democratic Party is not an opposition party.  Its task is to siphon votes back into the system in a politically “safe” direction. We need an independent working-class party that will stand by its principles and be a truly oppositional force.

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By David Seager, November 28, 2007 at 10:35 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It’s time to acknowledge that the Democratic Party is not an opposition party.  Its task is to siphon votes back into the system in a politically safe direction. We need an independent working-class party that will stand by its principles and be a truly oppositional force.

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By SaraB, November 28, 2007 at 10:33 am Link to this comment

Those leftist hacks just don’t get, do they? If you want freedom, democracy and civilized society you have to take away people’s freedoms, power, right to information, privacy to get it. And you sometimes have to use brutal uncivilized behavior (illegal wars, blatant propaganda/lies, petty revenge even when it amounts to treason, like outing a CIA operative, detention without trial and torture) to get it. Only then can you ensure you have a society that is… oh, dear. Well, at least you did all that for the right reasons, eh? When will we learn that the means do not justify the ends. They only predetermine them.

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By oregoncharles, November 28, 2007 at 10:09 am Link to this comment

Akira, #116548:  “I have no choice but to vote one in and hope they don’t let this continue.”

A very sad comment.  I promise you, you will have a choice.  The Greens will run someone you can vote FOR, without that overwhelming hopelessness.  At this point, the likeliest is Cynthia McKinney, the former Georgia congresswoman.  She’s running hard for the nomination, with a promise to be on all 51 state ballots.  Her history of heroic integrity is second to none.

And Douglas Chalmers:  thanks for reminding us about the result for the Greens in the Australian election.  They increased handsomely - at the expense of the Democrats!  Australia’s preference voting, which we could have here, is one reason.  But next year, sheer disgust with the major parties will do the same thing.

And of course the Democrats have no shame:  they sold that to the Republicans a long time ago.

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By lilmamzer, November 28, 2007 at 9:16 am Link to this comment

Amy Goodman is the Bag Lady of Leftist hacks.

No thinking person takes her sideshow seriously.

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By John Hanks, November 28, 2007 at 9:04 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

People in general have no shame because it interferes with the process of being a liar and a bully.  Shame is also contrary to the cheap sense of moral superiority (the liberal stock in trade).  Mankind will forever be nothing but a bunch of crooks, suckers, and lazy cowards.  There are NO moral actors.

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G.Anderson's avatar

By G.Anderson, November 28, 2007 at 8:41 am Link to this comment

Guess not, if they did they couldn’t go out in public. That’s why no one believes them, they have no moral high ground to speak from when they criticise Bush. Because not only did they let it happen, they helped it happen.

That’s what happens when you deal with the devil, your bound to become soaked in lies.

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By mary, November 28, 2007 at 8:08 am Link to this comment

And where was the news media!  I know I keep harping on this, but the best way to inform and outrage citizens is thru indepth investigations by an unbiased press.  When will we see more of this type of reporting.  The Democratic Party is so afraid of losing power they can’t see how much support they could have
just by doing the right thing.  Instead we get bullcrap everytime one of them speaks to the press.  Last week I heard John King defend Robert Novak on CNN, how can I ever take him seriously again, I can’t!  There was a time when journalists like Amy and Michael Ware would be front and center on every evening news report.  There would be no tolorance for those who defended the actions of those in power.  Am I waking from a nightmare or was that when we were a great nation.  I can’t tell anymore….....

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By j, November 28, 2007 at 7:50 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There are only two parties allowed to run by the British and European rabble in this country. (All others have no chance what so ever). If the Democratic Party ran a true American with one hundred percent favoring towards the American people, the rabble would forbid this American from ever reaching the status as president. As it is now the American people don’t vote for a president unless the Electoral College OKs it. The rabble has set up the game so that only the Republicans (Aka Conservatives right wingers one hundred for the rabble) and Democrats (Seventy five percent for the American people) can win the elections. In order for the Democrats to win the presidency they must be no more than twenty five percent for the American people. (The Democrats know this).  Even this twenty five percent pisses them off, but they will allow it. PS the are you human is the most ludicrous thing I have ever come across. Not only does it look like the letters and numbers are drunk, but the i an 1 are difficult to discern.

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By Akira_Maritias, November 28, 2007 at 7:45 am Link to this comment

...And we’re supposed to be the good guys….damn, man, evil better watch out! We’ll out-evil evil any day…I imagine that the terrorists ran out of paper to take notes on when they saw what we could do.

Disgusted the world over…and no way in hell for me to feel anything but utter uselessness. No way that I could crawl into the white house, no way that I could change this pure hell we live in…every side is for this horror, and I have no choice but to vote one in and hope they don’t let this continue.

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By Paracelsus, November 28, 2007 at 7:33 am Link to this comment

Amy, you have one powerful lever that you have failed to pull. 9-11.

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By Expat, November 28, 2007 at 4:50 am Link to this comment

Amy Goodman,
May the gods and goddesses smile on you for your courage; in the past, now, and in the future.  You are one very special person!

Have They No Shame?  Nope, never had, never will.  The Dems ceased to function independently after Carter.  Clinton was considered a Republicrat after all.  If “we” and it must be “we”, cannot get a viable third party going, “we” are doomed to the same circumstances we see going on in Gitmo and the “renditions by us”, throughout the rest of the world.  We will see this “WITHIN” our very own country!  No “Habeas Corpus”, leaves us, figuratively speaking (maybe literally), naked before the powers that be.  That may well prove to be the single most appalling thing “we” have done to ourselves as a nation; from this is flowing a host of evils.  Shame?  One must have a conscious to feel shame: The dems in their lust for power have forgone all semblance of etiquette or conscious, which is a prerequisite for shame.  No shame no guilt, no guilt; then, all things become possible for better or worse and worse is the proven course of a history with no guilt (Justice).

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By writeon, November 28, 2007 at 4:36 am Link to this comment
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Sadly, I believe we are almost inexorably moving out of the “democratic era” into something else. It’s a new age. Some may call it “fascism” others prefer “barbarism”, or maybe it doesn’t have a name yet? Could we being going backwards in time, to the kind of world that existed in the Middle Ages before the breakthrough will call the “Enlightenment”?

A thread that runs through so much of the changes we see around us, is the attack on civilized values, and the questioning of science and rationality itself. A return to the world of faith and belief triumphing over reason and observation. The rise of superstition and a preference for myth over reality. We create our own reality!

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By Outraged, November 27, 2007 at 11:51 pm Link to this comment

To add to my original post, I think Amy says it well when she said:

“This is not about politics. This is about the moral compass of the nation.”

Thank you Amy.  Not the first time you’ve been in harms way though, is it.  Hang tough.

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By Craig, November 27, 2007 at 11:43 pm Link to this comment
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“We become our enemies.”

In the four years since Bush stole the last election, we have done nothing to change our system and everything to destroy our values.

All in the name of victory.

The DLC has become a corporation seeking profits for it’s share holders. We are being governed by our fears of the past, not our vision of the future.

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By Outraged, November 27, 2007 at 11:42 pm Link to this comment

Many great comments, some well…so, so.  Great piece Amy.  What has bothered me so much is that Mukasey made it through.  That’s not right.  It just isn’t.  Logic says he shouldn’t have, but the FACTS are he did.  I say the fight is NOW, everything else was prelude.  Don’t get me wrong, it’s not that everyone was asleep, or “not working hard enough” because I know those that did, were.  However, Mukasey shouldn’t be there.  This should be a huge RED FLAG.  The time is now.  The push is now.

Write, protest, email congress, because this is Custer’s last stand, and they’re going to fight.  Stand up America, because this is it.  Mukasey shouldn’t be there, don’t you see?  The neocons got him in, then suddenly we’re awash in petty antics (while I agree that they’re amusing)  something’s up.  Best to find out what….

A footnote from Wikipedia: “Mukasey’s stepson, Marc L. Mukasey (formerly surnamed Saroff)[16], leads the white-collar criminal defense practice in the New York office of Bracewell & Giuliani.[17] The Mukaseys have a professional relationship with Rudy Giuliani; Mukasey and son are also justice advisers to Rudy Giuliani’s presidential campaign.[18] Mukasey swore in Mayor-elect Giuliani in 1994 and 1998.[18]”

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