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The Evangelical Rebellion

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Posted on Dec 23, 2007
Huckabee
AP photo / Steve Mitchell

By Chris Hedges

The rise of Mike Huckabee as a presidential candidate represents a seismic shift in the tactics, ideology and direction of the radical Christian right. Huckabee may stumble and falter in later primaries, but his right-wing Christian populism is here to stay. Huckabee represents a new and potent force in American politics, and the neocons and corporate elite, who once viewed the yahoos of the Christian right as the useful idiots, are now confronted with the fact that they themselves are the ones who have been taken for a ride. Members of the Christian right, recruited into the Republican Party and manipulated to vote against their own interests around the issues of abortion and family values, are in rebellion. They are taking the party into new, uncharted territory. And they presage, especially with looming economic turmoil, the rise of a mass movement that could demolish what is left of American democracy and set the stage for a Christian fascism.

The corporate establishment, whose plundering of the country created fertile ground for a radical, right-wing backlash, is sounding the alarm bells. It is scrambling to bolster Mitt Romney, who, like Rudy Giuliani or Hillary Clinton, will continue to slash and burn on behalf of corporate profits. Columnist George Will called Huckabee’s populism “a comprehensive apostasy against core Republican beliefs.” He wrote that Huckabee’s candidacy “broadly repudiates core Republican policies such as free trade, low taxes, the essential legitimacy of America’s corporate entities and the market system allocating wealth and opportunity.” National Review’s Rich Lowry wrote that “like [Howard] Dean, his nomination would represent an act of suicide by his party.”

Huckabee spoke of this revolt on the “Today” show. “There’s a sense in which all these years the evangelicals have been treated very kindly by the Republican Party,” he said. “They wanted us to be a part of it. And then one day one of us actually runs and they say, ‘Oh, my gosh, now they’re serious.’ They [evangelicals] don’t want to just show up and vote, they actually would want to be a part of the discussion.”

George Bush is a happy stooge of his corporate handlers. He blithely enriches the oligarchy, defends a war that is the worst foreign policy blunder in American history and callously denies medical benefits to children. Huckabee is different. He has tapped into the rage and fury of the working class, dispossessed and abandoned by the mainstream Democrats and Republicans. And he refuses to make the ideology of the Christian right, with its dark contempt for democratic traditions and intolerance of nonbelievers, a handmaiden of the corporate establishment. This makes him a much more lethal and radical political force. 

The Christian right is the most potent and dangerous mass movement in American history. It has been controlled and led, until now, by those who submit to the demands of the corporate state. But the grass roots are tired of being taken for rubes. They are tired of candidates, like Bush or Bill Clinton, who roll out the same clichés about working men and women every four years and then spend their terms enriching their corporate backers. The majority of American citizens have spent the last two decades watching their government services and benefits vanish. They have seen their jobs go overseas and are watching as their communities crumble and their houses are foreclosed. It is their kids who are in Iraq and Afghanistan. The old guard in the Christian right, the Pat Robertsons, who used their pulpits to deliver the votes of naive followers to the corporatists, is a spent force. Huckabee’s Christian populism represents the maturation of the movement. It signals the rise of a truly radical, even revolutionary force in American politics, of which Huckabee may be one of the tamer and less frightening examples.

Hints of Huckabee’s bizarre worldview seep out now and then. Bob Vander Plaats, Huckabee’s Iowa campaign manager, for example, when asked about his candidate’s lack of foreign policy experience, told MSNBC: “Well, I think Gov. Huckabee has a lot of resources that he goes to on national security matters. Here’s a guy, a former pastor, who understands a theological nature of this war as we’re fighting a radical religion in Islam.”

Robert Novak noted that Huckabee held a fundraiser last week at the Houston home of Dr. Steven Hotze. As Novak wrote, Hotze is “a leader in the highly conservative Christian Reconstruction movement.”

Huckabee has close ties with the Christian Reconstructionist or Dominionist branch of the Christian right. The Dominionist movement, which seeks to cloak itself in the mantle of the Christian faith and American patriotism, is small in numbers but influential. It departs from traditional evangelicalism. It seeks to redefine traditional democratic and Christian terms and concepts to fit an ideology that calls on the radical church to take political power. It shares many prominent features with classical fascist movements, at least as such movements are defined by the scholar Robert O. Paxton, who sees fascism as “a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cultures of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.”

Dominionism, born out of Christian Reconstructionism, seeks to politicize faith. It has, like all fascist movements, a belief in magic along with leadership adoration and a strident call for moral and physical supremacy of a master race, in this case American Christians. It also has, like fascist movements, an ill-defined and shifting set of beliefs, some of which contradict each other. Paxton argues that the best way to understand authentic fascist movements, which he says exist in all societies, including democracies, is to focus not on what they say but on how they act, for, as he writes, some of the ideas that underlie fascist movements “remain unstated and implicit in fascist public language” and “many of them belong more to the realm of visceral feelings than to the realm of reasoned propositions.”

Dominionism teaches that American Christians have been mandated by God to make America a Christian state. A decades-long refusal by most American fundamentalists to engage in politics at all following the Scopes trial has been replaced by a call for Christian “dominion” over the nation and, eventually, over the Earth itself. Dominionism preaches that Jesus has called on Christians to actively build the kingdom of God on Earth. America becomes, in this militant Biblicism, an agent of God, and all political and intellectual opponents of America’s Christian leaders are viewed, quite simply, as agents of Satan. Under Christian dominion, America will no longer be a sinful and fallen nation but one in which the Ten Commandments form the basis of our legal system, in which creationism and “Christian values” form the basis of our educational system, and the media and the government proclaim the Good News to one and all. Labor unions, civil rights laws and public schools will be abolished. Women will be removed from the work force to stay at home, and all those deemed insufficiently Christian will be denied citizenship. 

Baptist minister Rick Scarborough, founder of Vision America and a self-described “Christocrat,” who attended the Texas fundraiser, has endorsed Huckabee. Scarborough, along with holding other bizarre stances, opposes the HPV (human papillomavirus) vaccine on grounds that it interferes with God’s punishment of sexual license. And Huckabee, who once advocated isolating AIDS patients from the general public and opposed increased federal funding in the search for a cure, comes out of this frightening mold. He justified his call to quarantine those with AIDS because they could “pose a dangerous public health risk.”

“If the federal government is truly serious about doing something with the AIDS virus, we need to take steps that would isolate the carriers of this plague,” Huckabee wrote. “It is difficult to understand the public policy towards AIDS. It is the first time in the history of civilization in which the carriers of a genuine plague have not been isolated from the general population, and in which this deadly disease for which there is no cure is being treated as a civil rights issue instead of the true health crisis it represents.”

Huckabee has publicly backed off from this extreme position, but he remains deeply hostile to gays. He has used wit and humor to deflect reporters from his radical views about marriage, abortion, damnation, biblical law, creationism and the holy war he believes we are fighting with Islam. But his stances represent a huge step, should they ever become policy, toward a theocratic state and the death of our open society. In the end, however, I do not blame Huckabee or the tens of millions of hapless Christians—40 percent of the Republican electorate—who hear his words and rejoice. I blame the corporate state, those who thought they could disempower and abuse the working class, rape the country, build a rapacious oligarchy and never pay a political price. 

Chris Hedges, who graduated from seminary at Harvard Divinity School, is the author of “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America.”

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By Shenonymous, May 16 at 7:19 am #
(896 comments total)

Re: Criticism, threefold Cont.

C) Is Vidal’s that sort of criticism needed (the rest of this item is shear nonsense about giving Christians a chance to reflect, almost sophomoric.  There is no moral or otherwise imperative for the world to do anything remotely close to give anyone a moment to reflect for improvement.  Self-realization is the obligation for self-improvement.)?  But let’s take it as just a theoretical need without all the Ozark baggage.  Are criticisms of this type needed?  It may be that what is considered destructive criticism is not needed.  But much in life that is not needed comes to us humans.  The thing is about this chance to reflect business. It gives everyone a chance to reflect, not just Christians.  One size fits all.  Arguments must be crafted to show the error of the destructive criticisms.  That takes hard thinking and believers are not too used to doing that, even self-reflection is difficult among that group.  Socrates once said, “The unexamined life is not worth living.” If that were a reality, we wouldn’t need a constitution, certainly not any amendments.  I happen to be a believer, in what Socrates said.  I examine my mind continuously. 

I sometimes feel like both Nabih and I are providing fodder for a dissertation.  Oh well, I don’t mind clarifying my mind.  I’ll take the cod liver oil.

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By Shenonymous, May 16 at 7:17 am #
(896 comments total)

Criticism, threefold

Michael you are so clever the way you frame your inquiries.  I am always impressed at your subtle abrasion.  Appearance is often confused for reality.  The challenge is to weed out the useless, however, before any cogent answer might even be attempted. I don’t know if I can do that but I will try.  I don’t need a whole lot of time.  Much as I often agree with Gore Vidal, I am not mindless and I do not think of him as having either the last word nor always offering the best analogies in his own search for truth.  All gods for me are fictions that serve man’s purposes.  But to give an answer from my perspective to your questions about the nature of speech since that is really what is at bottom of your ABC choices, I shall do my best as we are civilized colleagues searching for truth here.  I mean what really is going on here?  The value of free speech?  Here is my my vote.

A) Criticism of any kind, yes any kind, ‘should’ not be outlawed even the most heinous laden (like those who hate atheists and say so publicly and persecute them, nor any that disparage Christians or any other religious or any other group for that matter, i.e., corporations, political parties, etc.).  The word ‘should’ is evaluative and connotes opinion and judgment.  I only alluded to what is essentially ‘open-ended law’ in my earlier posts to show the absurdity of the Amendment since all ‘ought’ to be protected not only those specialty groups, that is, Christians, for whom the amendment is so obviously tailor made.  Where is the truth in that amendment? But that is not what the Christians want.  They don’t want to take what they perceive to be the awful tasting cod liver oil (atheists, or all non-Christians) along with their honey (only Christians) as they see it.  You do not address those questions!  For even honey could not let you swallow The Unvarnished Truth.  Yes that one, the universal one, the Ideal Truth.  Not your particular truth.  I suggest reading the constitution that guarantees free speech.  And here I agree with Nabih that the constitution is the only sacred document for the population of this country, the entire population. And it must not be tampered with lightly.

B) Acceptable to whom?  You would muffle Gore’s kind of criticism why?  Is it because you fear there might be even a grain of truth in it?  Elsewise it would not be so potent as to make you want to squash it.  That is the interesting part about the best kind of lies, and I qualify the use of the word best to mean epitome, not degree of merit.  The best lies are the ones that sound most closely to the truth.  They are easily slipped in for the truth almost without anyone noticing.  Therein exists the danger.  This is the skill of those who can convince whole populations that there is life after death, that women are less than human and ‘should’ be subservient to men, that there is reason to murder six million Jews, or bomb and kill millions in Iraq in the name of a god who whispers to a powerful man in charge.  Lies that lay right next to the truth should they be outlawed?  I, who would be vilified as atheist, say NO!  Even in the face of death (by the way I just got an email death threat, no kidding.  I’ve turned it over to the FBI.  It has certainly pissed me off!  Talk about civilized again please).  It isn’t a question of tolerating some intolerance.  It is a question of the value of free speech and being wise and strong enough to dispel and defuse the error and lies that show disrespect.  (Now disrespect while showing a lack of esteem or rudeness by comparison is not such a heinous crime, now is it?).  But if you strangle free speech at even this low level you will cease to have it all.  It is frivolous to say it is a necessary evil that we have to sustain some pain (tolerate in this case) when there is fanaticism, fascism (intolerance).  Again, please read the part of the constitution that guarantees free speech.

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By OzarkMichael, May 16 at 5:18 am #
(174 comments total)

[b]Intolerance, Truth, and Honesty: Which

Intolerance, Truth, and Honesty: Which Ingredients make for Civilized Discussion?

per Shenonymous: Civilized, to be or not to be is my question?  In the act of giving an account of something in a civilized arena, it seems as honest a telling without embellishment is an obligation.

I think we need to decide about this. Thank you for great posts all around. I will especially look for your responses to this post, since we are going to settle this between ourselves.

per Gore Vidal: Ultimately, totalitarianism is the only sort of politics that can truly serve the sky-god’s purpose. Any movement of a liberal nature endangers his authority and that of his delegates on earth. One God, one King, one Pope, one master in the factory, one father-leader in the family at home.

The terminology ‘sky god’ is an interesting tie in to Karen Armstrong. It is in Vidal’s case meant to offend Christians. Here is the decision point, I would like to know what everyone thinks.

Is Gore Vidal’s statement:

A) the sort of criticism that should be outlawed since it is intolerant? If we outlaw this type of speech it shows respect for Christians.

B) the sort of criticism that is acceptable even though it isnt true? Even if it is disrespectful and tinged with hate, it would be a much worse thing to outlaw this type of speech. We have to tolerate some intolerance.

C) The sort of criticism that is needed (even if it is offensive) because it gives the Christians a chance to reflect upon their actions and the possibility to improve themselves? This is actually a hidden respect for believers even if it appears intolerant. This type of speech is honest and there isnt enough of it. It is totalitarianism to try to outlaw it.

I look forward to your ‘votes’. feel free to expand upon your choices.

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By Shenonymous, May 16 at 12:22 am #
(896 comments total)

Early morning monologue

Civilized, to be or not to be is my question?  In the act of giving an account of something in a civilized arena, it seems as honest a telling without embellishment is an obligation.  Histrionics only add fuel to a fire that might have started.  Or interest, depending on one’s disposition.

Perhaps this forum is a microcosm of the world and the four of us represents four paradigm temperaments human have.  There are probably more than four, but four is what we are so I will make the analogy suit that number.  But don’t ask me what the four are!  Well, let’s see, I’ll give it a go.  I think we each of us lie somewhere in between the classic four temperaments:  OM is on the choleric side apollonian but promethean and quick to react, a bit hot tempered as he has shown us, but thoughtful, very thoughtful; Nabih is prickly, but that is not exactly a temperament, or is it? I think he is more hyperesthetic, apollonian and idealistic, ethical, there is a tinge of the melancholy that comes out now and then; dn is more slow-moving but artistically innovative as well, receptive and rational, given to the dialectical but drama of a sort emerges also; I am definitely hypomanic, sanguine of temperament, a dionysian artist f’sure, but I take my time as well to exploit my thoughts rationally and never exploit people, but I am given to light drama and the lofty.  It is somewhat of a veneer to paste such epithets but it was fun.  Poor Nabih has patiently to put up with both OM’s and my plucky amusements now and then.  Passion sometimes gets the better of all of us on this forum, dreadnaught.  You haven’t been with us quite long enough to see how our reactions rise and fall depending on the kind of weather that is happening.  Right now a small squall has formed, but we put on our metaphoric boots and squish around until we settle down.  We have stuck to being here because of the mental comfort from the tempest that is our world.  Now that is a dramatic image that I think is more calming than a boxing match.  Maybe not.  We, all of us, are seekers.  We seek more of Truth.  Because we own radically different views, we have some thunder and lightening, but, and now I am not imagining this, I think, we have such high tolerance for each other and respect really, even when it might look like we don’t .  We’ve come to a realization that there is some good learning we can glean from each other.  We have worked our way through a few storms.  We struggle.  Sometimes we go off to think things over.  We have formed a pseudo family.  We come back to learn some more.  I do believe this is our theater of tolerance.  One of my dearest friends likens life to being on a raft on the vast ocean. I think he has a fitting image.

Not infrequently I think about Martin Heidegger’s idea about caring, he called it Sorge.  For him Sorge signifies human existence and it is that what makes living meaningful.  He said that “to be-in-the-world in an authentic existential pretext is to be ‘care-ful,” full of care.  He concluded that “care” is the primordial state of what he called Being, or in this special case, Dasein, as the existential human that strives towards authenticity.  Sorge must be a ‘care for’ many things. These things include a concern for others, a care for the ready-at-hand, a care for the world, but in principle, Sorge is a caring for the presentness and obscurity of Being itself.  His idea of angst that stems from the realization of our death causes us to too easily fall into inauthenticity when we fall away from ourselves.  Angst brings us face to face with the terrible freedom of deciding whether to remain in inauthenticity or to try to reach self-possession.

How does this all relate to what we are discussing of late?  Maybe nothing.  Just waxing philosophical after such a long hiatus.  You will bear with me, I know.  Next time I’ll be much more serious, please say that last word in a low octave and slowly.  Thank you.

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By dreadnaught, May 15 at 3:41 pm #
(30 comments total)

Yippie!

The athiests attack the Christians, the religious attack the athiests, (which came first?) several religions clash, the atheiests call the religious intolerant, the Christians say with righteous indignance, “Who, me?” the athiests say, “Yes, you especially,” and the Christian’s reply has yet to be seen. Let’s watch, shall we?

I feel as if I am watching a microcosm of the world. Such great rebellion in tiny shades… not since Joe Louis vs Max Schmeling.

Would throw in the old two cents’ worth but I have a dinner-thing to dress up for. “Yippie,” as Abbie Hoffman was so fond of remarking.

Nabih: I’m only going to say this once, because I don’t like talking about myself. It has been brought to my attention by several sources that you think I am OzarkMichael. I am not him. I am not his son. I am in fact his grown daughter, who lives a few thousand miles off from him. I respect you both as intelligent men, but please stop treating me as if I am him. My mind is not his, and neither are my posts.

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By Shenonymous, May 15 at 10:04 am #
(896 comments total)

We should talk more about this...

OzarkMichael, how can you say in the same breath the words suppressed and free speech?  You have a knack of taking a different road than is offered.  Your new “law” would protect all believers, but you say nothing of my vested-interest question, what about all non-believers?  I’d just like to know that my butt is covered too.  That is reasonable isn’t it?

The act of self-deception often includes the desire to tell what one thinks is the truth.  Since in their minds, men seek the good else they would be truly miserable were they to seek the bad (even that which is tinged with hate would be bad (unhealthful) for one’s psyche), so they would think their hatred however laundered was a truth, their truth.  Untruths are a species of deceptions.  They are called lies where I come from.  When one lies to oneself, that is self-deception.  How are the law enforcers to suppress what one thinks is the truth that is really a lie?  Who will be the self-deception police?  How could The Other know it was a self-deception on the part of the slightly hating.  Thought police are as repugnant as the hate speeches. 

Where do you get the notion of anyone being occupied with correcting anyone’s opinion of himself, Christian or not?  Once it is out in the open, one’s opinions are up for judgment.  Who exactly is attacking whom?  You keep on dodging that question.  If you roam the TD articles you would see how Chris Hedges attacks the atheists almost on a daily basis.  And if you don’t know who John Hagee is then you have not been paying attention to John McCain.  Maybe you are not interested in the politics of the day? 

You are right that much would be gained by promoting peace between the religions and towards religion.  And it would far outweigh any downside if I could understand what upside and downside would mean in that context.  It is not clear.  In what way could opposing religious dogma be able to prevail over each other?  Are you asking that religions set aside their basic beliefs?  Are you asking for one Universal religion?  Are you asking Muslims to become Christians, Jews to become Christians, Hindus to become Christians, and so forth down the entire set of 101 religions and cults in the world?  I use Christians in this because I cannot see you giving up any of your doctrines, especially your fundamentalist doctrines to shake hands with any of the other religions.  There is the Universalist Church by the way and I think they have promoted the very thing you are speaking about to some degree.  And they have been in existence since the 18th century.  A major sect of that religion, Universalism, actually embraces humanism and secular liberalism.  I don’t know how they do it, but I guess it is a step in the right direction.  Interestingly enough, though, they haven’t made much of an impression on American or world populations.  Something must not be working.  what do you suppose it could be?

It would be nice if Nabih and dreadnaught would join back in.  But I don’t mind going toe to toe with you Michael.

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By Nabih Ammari, May 15 at 9:59 am #
(3 comments total)

OzarkMichael,I do not believe in

OzarkMichael,

I do not believe in amending the U.S.Constitution each time there is a disagreement in our social/political orders,ranging from pro-choice/pro-life to same sex marriages to pro-war/anti-war to calling each others fascist etc...These social/political disagreements can be solved if there is social and political good will & intention in each camp,without the lengthy and risky business of amending the Constitution.

In one of my very earliest posts I have made it clear that my bible is the Constitution of the U.S.

If the Evangelicals,regardless of their conviction their persuasions,are willing to amend their own Holy Bible,then and only then I will agree reluctantly to do the same-amending my own bible.I
repeat,I do not believe in amending the Constitution,let alone changing it.It is a great piece of document and should be protected by all parties.If not,then we are in worse shape than I have estimated.

OzarkMichael,the best part of your last two messages is really their tune.The tune sounds calmer,more subtle,less aggressive,less than holier than thou,and perfectly agreeable with my own temperament and approaches in discussing issues and exchanging views amongst civil and grown-up human beings.My faith in you as a potential “VOICE OF MODERATION” amongst your own Evangelicals has not dimmed at all.May your God bless you.Please notice I used the word “May”.I dare not ordering your God to bless you,as most public figures carelessly do when they say:God bless you or God Bless America.Question:
OzqrkMichael,please tell me who has the real respect to YOUR God,this honest Agnostic or your public officials and Evangelicals who want to amend the almost DIVINE Constitution of the U.S? Again,MAY YOUR GOD BLESS YOU,and I DO MEAN IT,Ozark. 
Sincerely,
Nabih Ammari
An Independent in Ohio.

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By OzarkMichael, May 15 at 8:29 am #
(174 comments total)

The Crew is Back

per Shenonymous: You brush off the rest as if they don’t count, yet every day their ugly mouths keep going with the filth that is disgusting.

my comment: I dont mean to. i dont know most of them. Who do they speak for? Do i have to answer for what they say? i didnt even hear of Hagee until I saw him named in Truthdig as John McCain’s ‘spiritual advisor’.

Another thing that i didnt make clear is that this law would protect all believers, not just Christians.

per Shenonymous: What exactly is the problem with telling the truth?  The truth sometimes lays bare a picture one doesn’t like of oneself.  And therein lies the biggest problem, self-deception.

my comment: I do see your point about desire to tell what you think is the truth. When that desire is tinged with hate, doesnt it become something else, and is better described as untruth? And shouldnt that be supressed? The expression and spread of direspectful speech is certainly a bad thing. This law would be a start towards a better use of free speech.

Your point about ‘self deception’ i dont understand. Is it anyone’s job to correct a Christian’s opinion of himself? Is it that vital a task that we must always strive and attack each other?

There is so much that would be gained by promoting peace between the religions, and towards religion. It would far outweigh any downside.

As always, thanks for being patient. I am reading what you say and thinking about it. I wonder if you guys are seeing this more clearly now? I hope Nabih or dreadnaught would comment also.

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By Shenonymous, May 14 at 1:54 pm #
(896 comments total)

The crew is back! No?

Yes indeed a cordial and genuine welcome back Michael of Ozark!  That agnomen sounds a little like a character that could be out of a story by one of our favorite Christians, C S Lewis.  Was there some inference of offence?  I see that you did not actually address my questions but answered your own. Nevertheless, it seems like Mr. Obama made a good assessment. When people are frustrated, in their unsettled state they do hold fast to what is most comforting to them or they become hostile to who they perceive as adversaries or oppose their views.  His description of those things that are comforting to Christians, their religion, and of the more aggressive people carry guns, or they persecute those “who aren’t like them...” seemed factual.  What exactly is the problem with telling the truth?  The truth sometimes lays bare a picture one doesn’t like of oneself.  And therein lies the biggest problem, self-deception.  The media made an excessively extraordinary thing out of a nothing because the media is extraordinarily arrogant and think they have the right to cause a blazing fire out of the puniest kindling. It is a travesty.  The amendment about the press maybe ought to be revamped to stop that kind of internal rot.  Then the Clintons chafed loudly because Obama lumped them together with the Bush Administration as failing to solve the jobs problem for 25 years ago beginning with the Reagan administration. Come on Michael, a whole amendment change of clothes?  Somewhat overreactive I’d say.  It is an obvious ploy of the powers that be to throw a railroad tie in the way of Obama’s momentum.  So if Safeguard is just a provisional name, what would be a better name?  Which direction is the stereotyping actually going?  There is always a force that is trying to vitiate the constitutional rights of the people.  It is a cause of great wonder.

I can see that Pat Robinson would support such an amendment.  Does that mean he is for tolerance?  How do you figure?  Isn’t he just protecting his own self-interests and derriere.  Would he protect the Muslim community?  What about exotic religions like Sufis, or how about the Taoists.  Oh, and how are the Jews to be handled?  Are they still the murderers of Jesus?  And what about the likes of John Hagee?  How are you going to stop his mouth?  Could we throw his butt in jail upon the immediate passage of the amendment?  Ha!  You brush off the rest as if they don’t count, yet every day their ugly mouths keep going with the filth that is disgusting.  So biblical, right?  What I want to see is the language include protection of non-religious folks as well as all non-Christians.  Then we will have tolerance.  No?  No, I do not think the Safeguard Amendment would be a “good” thing.  The law is strong as it is.  It simply needs enforced by the right Justice Department, period. 

What have we decided is fascism on this forum?  We haven’t actually done a thorough examination or evaluation of it to my recollection.  We have waltzed around it a bit but let’s do define it in the context of the amendment after we decide what it is.

Was this a long and leisurely enough post?  Was it contentious enough?  You sure disagreement is a good thing?  I wasn’t in a hurry.  I have the day off for a change.  I am also painting woodwork in a leisurely manner and listening to YoYo Ma’s exquisite cello.

P.S. I see our discussion forum is down to two pages!  They must have dumped the earlier pages.  Good thing somebody saved them somewhere else.  And Nabih looks like you made it into the registry!  I’ll be damned.

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By OzarkMichael, May 14 at 11:52 am #
(174 comments total)

Friends,

As always, disagreements between us makes for a better conversation. i am not in the least offended. I think this Amendment got started because of what Senator Obama said about Christians being ‘bitter’. The stereotyping really needs to stop. Safeguard Amendment is just a provisional name, it will get a better name when/if it gets written up and presented to the press. It is only in planning stage at the moment. I like to discuss what it means with other people besides just Christians.

Pat Robinson is actually supporting the amendment. Doesnt that mean that he is for tolerance? The other people Shen mentions might support it too, I dont know yet. Wouldnt that be a good thing?

You understand that preventing disrespect towards religion will result in less tension and lead to more peace? The idea is to increase tolerance here. An Amendment to the Free Speech clause seems like the way to go.

Nabih, thank you for the welcome. I hope you will speak your mind as always. I get the feeling you are against Safegaurd becoming the law of the land. Do not hesitate to say what you think. Also, take your time and spell out exactly why. I shouldnt single out Chris Hedges but he would be effected by this law. 

I have changed my mind about things before, so your patience and input is appreciated.

Shen, you mention fascism as if the people behind the amendment are providing cover for fascists. Is that what you mean? Its amazing how much you pack into a paragraph. I understand you are against the Safegaurd Law for now, but maybe as we talk you will see it in a different light. Take your time when replying. No hurry. A long leisurely post is called for.

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By Nabih Ammari, May 13 at 9:49 pm #
(3 comments total)

OzarkMichael,

I whole heartedly welcome you back to this thread,
whether I agree with what you post or not.This thread
did not look right without you.I probably post sparingly because of family obligations I have to attend to.But,I love to read the exchanges that would take place between you and our dear Shenonymous,just like the good old days.

Welcome back,again,OzqrkMichael.

Sincerely,
Nabih Ammari
An Independent inOhio.

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By Shenonymous, May 13 at 6:57 pm #
(896 comments total)

OzarkMIchael, I know you mean well.  You have a good heart. But not so rhetorically speaking, why would you want to save the atheists?  Would the amendment go both ways?  Would it protect the non-Christians from slander and hatespeech that comes from the mongers that steadily spew their hatred?  Have you listened to them lately?  John Hagee is only one of the worst.  Irene Faulkes, John Perna, Pat Robertson, Roy Moore, David Duke, Ann Couler, Jerry Falwaell, just to name a few others.  Do you think for a minute these people, all of them, would ever be prosecuted no matter what law or constitutional amendment were installed?  I think this amendment is a pure ruse.  What a pearl of a word “Safeguard” to incite the credulous.  How to root out the germinated seeds of fascism from these kinds of vilifiers is the problem it seems to me.  I am sorry to see we are on such diametrically opposed and different shores.  I thought tolerance was on the agenda.

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By OzarkMichael, May 13 at 4:02 am #
(174 comments total)

A Kinder, Gentler Dominionism

Mike Huckabee is working on something called the Safeguard Amendment to the U.S. constitution. It is the cause he is going to bring to the Republican convention or possibly directly to congress this summer if he has the votes to pass it. There are private meetings going on, many involving Christians and local congressmen. Right now they are quietly figuring out what support we have.

The Safeguard Amendment is simply an amplification of current freedom. The freedom of religion clause(which allows us private freedom to worship) does not sufficiently protect Christians from public slander and hatespeech that is becoming more rampant every year.

So instead we introduce the Safeguard Amendment as a modification of the Free Speech clause in the U.S. Constition. The idea is to have all judges and even the Supreme Court become more mindful of the correct use of free speech. Congress would be authorized to employ a Special Task Force to moniter and even recommend enforcement against those who defame religion and engage in hatespeech against religious people.

The best news is that all religions will benefit from this, not just Christians. There is an ‘inherent dignity’ which ‘all believers’ have that calls for ‘public respect’.

I think it has a great potential to solve many problems between the religions, as well as between athiests and Christians. We will get past all the ‘fascist’ name calling that goes back and forth.

For example, it won’t hurt Chris Hedges to become a bit kinder in his choice of words. ‘Christian Fascism’ and other intolerant phrases would certainly get the attention of the Special Task Force. People will realize this so they will self-censor themselves and we figure very few cases would actually have to go to court.

Our congressman (a Democrat!) has privately pledged support for the Safeguard Amendment. 

What do you guys think of this expansion to the Free Speech clause? As always, I trust in your freely expressed opinions.

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By Nabih Ammari, May 11 at 9:02 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Subject:The three volumes covering the relationship
between the Byzantium Empire and the Arabs in the 5TH and 6TH centuries.

Shenonymous,

Please do not try to purchase the above subject.They are expensive and I would not recommend buying them except to the real specialist in the field.In calling
your attention to the three volumes has been to let
you know of their existence,in case you wish to
explore the relationship that existed between the
Eastern Roman Empire and the Arabs,before,during and
after the appearance of Islam.That means in the 5TH
and 6TH centuries.I believe that such a relationship
had a profound influence on Muhammad through his close relationship with a Christian monk whose name
was Buhira.

Please do not buy those three volumes.I suggest to check them out from your local library.If your local
library does not have them,then wait until you move
back to California and try your luck with the local
libraries there.The whole idea is to keep them in mind as good and well documented and scholarly written references.Nothing more.
Sincerely,
Nabih Ammari
An Independent in Ohio.

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By Shenonymous, May 11 at 2:00 am #
(896 comments total)

Nabih, I will certainly finish the reading as you suggest.  Your lastest post is again rich with additional information.  I will see if I can get copies of the three texts you noted.

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By Nabih Ammari, May 10 at 10:11 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

PART ONE
=========

Re:Response to Shenonymous’s Intrepid April 28.

Shenonymous,

Please accept my apology for taking so long to
provide you with some responses to your above Re.I just could not help it.

Although I have wanted to refrain from making any
comment with regards to the writings of Karen Armstrong because I am bias towards her ways of
tackling and exploring historical events,I have felt,
at the same time,you were,somehow,seeking my comments
Hence,I have felt all along obliged to provide you with some comments,hoping to just clarify,nothing more.

Therefore,I kindly request to take into your considerations the following points,in order to arrive to an objective assessment:

(1)Please consider any undocumented paragraph you may read in Karen Armstrong’s books as her own opinion
or view points.As one can do that,the relationship
between Armstrong and her readers becomes easier to translate into either accepting her opinions/view points or rejecting them.For example,she mentioned that the ancient Arabs of Arabia believed in the existence of jinnis:good jinnis and bad jinnis, surrounding people every where.They are invisible to
the human eye.She did mention this in the introduction without giving any references to that effect.Such knowledge is so well known to me,way
before I have ever heard of Karen Armstrong.Therefore I need no documented reference to prove that the ancient people of Arabia believed in the existence of
the invisible jinnis everywhere.I read all kinds of myths about them and all kind of Arab jokes about
them as well.At the same time,that does not mean,at all,that documented references are not needed or required for the critical eye of an academic like
yourself.It all depends on one’s background.I have
happened to be knowledgeable of both cultures of the West,particularly the American culture,and the
Cultures of the East,particularly the Arab culture as
I lived and worked there for more than two decades.
What may sound or appear unusual or strange to a
person who has never lived abroad and has never exposed to other cultures may sound normal and
appear to me as empirical,perhaps because I might
have lived it or seen it or heard it etc...All of such different backgrounds may help one to appreciate
the difficulties in pleasing different tastes or winning the approval of all,especially after after
Karen Armstrong wrote her book entitled “Jerusalem:
One City,Three Faiths”.I believe that book might have
created more resentment toward her writing from all
the international powers and religious forces which
each one of them want to control the old holy city, starting from the Israeli leadership to the Arab
world to the Palestinians to the Vatican,to the UN
and to the Christian Zionists who are pushing hard to
speed up the second coming of Christ through the great battle of Armageddon in which millions of people will perish and only the Christian Zionists
and their ilks will be raptured to heaven in spit of the Holocaust destroying the rest of us-Humanity!!! 

(2)Please remember what I had already mentioned on occasions,in past posts,that whatever I recomended
to you should be considered as only guidelines or rather an introduction of an extremely complex subject and hardly touched the tip of an iceberg-that
is Islam.Such guidelines/introduction may mean grat deal to those who are ambitious enough,serious enough
and above all disciplined enough to pursue further
exploration of Islam on their own,providing that they know very well as to how to navigate through hatred
and minefields full of an endless rubbish writings
and trashy websites and radio talk shows about Islam.

TO BE CONTINUED IN PART TWO....
================================

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By Nabih Ammari, May 10 at 7:38 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

PART TWO:
=========

Re:Response to Shenonymous’ Intrepid April 28 continues.

(3)I have in my personal library books I treasure as
references three volumes totaling approximately 1,400
pages recording and describing the relationship that
existed,in the 5TH and 6TH centuries,between the Arabs and the Eastern Roman Empire of Byzantium before,during and after the appearance of Islam.Being
an academic with critical eye on the the writings and
recording historical events,you probably would love
these three volumes since the author documents almost
every paragraph,and some of the documented references
are printed in Arabic to emphasize authenticity of
the source.It will take one’s whole life to go though such volumes and recheck the authenticity of each documented reference embodied in them only to understand one single point:the historical relationship between the Roman empire and the Arabs so that one may be able to understand why the Arabs and their new religion called Islam had prevailed against a well established and powerful empire called the Eastern Roman empire.
Because of the difficulties associated with these
three scholarly written volumes,I use them only as
references in case I need to.If you are interested to take a look at these three volumes,they are:

“Rome And The Arabs:A Prolegomenon To The Study Of
Byzantium And The Arabs” by Irfan Shahid of Georgetown University.

“Byzantium And The Arabs in The Fifth Century” by
Irfan Shahid of Georgetown University.

“Byzantium And The Arabs In The Sixth Century” by
Irfan Shahid of Georgetown University.

Due to the difficulties involved,I certainly shy away from recommending these three volumes to a new learner of Islam except when I am fully convinced that the new learner has the genuine will,disciplines needed and intelligence required for learning.I am fully convinced you do posses all these qualities.That is why I have mentioned them to you just to inspect and they do exist for your scholarly references.

(4)As I inspect Irfan Shahid’s three difficult volumes and compare them with the three and one half book I have already read of Karen Armstrong’s books,I cannot help but admire more the way she tackles such an intensely complex subject and makes it so easy to comprehend,at least to me. Moreover,as I read these days her book “A History of God”,I feel like reading a great novel very interesting to read and easy to follow.That is where her strength lies.Through her easy-to-read books,Karen Armstrong provides her readers with an excellent INTRODUCTION to those who are genuinely seeking to understand Islam as it should be understood without prior biases or prior negative judgment based on prior contamination of the
mind,heart,and soul through reading trashy writings by those who never could get rid of the residue remained in the West after the defeat of the Crusaders at the hands of the Muslim Arabs lead by the Kurdish Muslim called Salah El-Deen, known in the West as Saladin.It seems to me that that residue will remain with the haters of Islam forever.That is where the role of a formidable writer like Karen Armstrong becomes essentially crucial for the sake of overcoming such a residue or at least,for a peaceful coexistence.Therefore, one may not be able to find easier way,more sincerity and obvious honesty in tackling the subject at hand than Armstrong’s books.

(5)May I ask to hold a final judgment about her writings until you finish reading her books,or at least until finishing reading “A History of God”,
especially Chapters 5 and 6.

I must admit once more that I am bias for Karen Armstrong’s sincerity,honesty,eloquence,courage, and knowledge that seem so special to me in many ways.Therefore,I,hereby,disqualify myself from making any comment in defense of her wonderful writings,from this moment onwards.
Sincerely,
Nabih Ammari
An Independent in Ohio.

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By Nabih Ammari, May 6 at 6:37 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:Muhammad’s Achievements and Greatness continues…

The following quote comprises two parts,PART ONE:

Quote
======
Alphonse de Lamartine,Hitoire de la Turquie.

Never has a man set for himself,voluntarily or involuntarily a more subline aim,since this aim
superhuman to subvert superstitions which had been interposed between man and his creator,to render God unto man and man unto God,to restore the rational and sacred idea of divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured God of idolatry,then existing.Never has a man undertaken a work so far beyond human power with so feeble means,for he(Muhammad)had in the conception as well as in the execution of such a great design no other instrument
than himself,and no other aid,except a handful of men
living in a corner of the desert.Finally,never has a man accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world,because in less than two centuries after its appearance,Islam,in faith and in arms,
reigned over the whole of Arabia,and conquered,in God ‘s name,Persia,Khorasan,Transoxania,Western India,
Syria,Egypt,Abbassinia,all the known continent of
North Africa,numerous islands of the Mediterranean,
Spain,and a part of Gaul.

If greatness of purpose,small of means,and astounding
results are the true criteria of human genius,who
could dare to compare any great man in modern history
with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms,laws
and empires only.They founded,if anything at all,no more than material powers which often crumbled away
before their eyes.This man moved not only armies,
legislations,empires,peoples and dynasties,but millions of men in one-third of the inhabited world, and more than that,he moved the alters,the gods,the religions,the ideas,the beliefs and the soul.

To Be Continued in PART TWO.
=============================

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By Nabih Ammari, May 6 at 5:42 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:Muhammad’s Achievements and Greatness continues…

The following quote comprises two parts,PART TWO:

Quote
=====
Alphonse de Lamartine,Histoire de la Turquie

On the basis of a Book,every letter of which has become law,he created a spiritual nationality which blended together peoples of every tongue and every
race.He has left us as the indelible characteristic
of this Muslim nationality the hatred of false God
and the passion for the One and immaterial God.This
avenging patriotism against the profanation of heaven
formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad,the
conquest of one-third of the earth to his dogma was
his miracle,or rather it was not the miracle of a man
but that of reason.

The idea of the unity of God,proclaimed amidst the
exhaustion of fabulous theogonies,was in itself such
a miracle that its utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of idols and set on
fire one-third of the world.His life,his meditation,
his heroic reliving against the superstitions of his
country,and his boldness in defying the furies of idolatry,his firmness in ending them for fifteen years at Mecca,his acceptance of the role of public
scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow countrymen,all these and,finally,his flight,his incessant preaching,his was against odds,his faith in his success and his superhuman security in misfortune
his forbearance in victory,his ambition,which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire,his endless prayers,his mystic conversations with God,his death and his triumph after death,all these attest not to an imposture but
to affirm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma.This dogma was twofold,the unity of God and the immateriality of God;the former telling
what God is,the latter is telling what God is not,the
one overthrowing false Gods with the sword,the other
starting an idea with the words.

Philosopher,Orator,apostle,lagislator,warrior,conqueror
of ideas,restorer of rational dogmas of a cult without images,the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire,that is Muhammad.
As regards all standards by which human greatness may
be measured,we may well ask,is there any man greater
than he?-Paris 1845,Vol.ll.pp 276-277.

Unquote
=======
you may wish to add the above to your file on Islam.

Sincerely,
Nabih Ammari
An Independent in Ohio.

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By Shenonymous, May 4 at 7:11 pm #
(896 comments total)

Thank you Nabih.  I will add this last post of yours to the others.  I have the 1st chapter of The History of God finished.  It is slow going as I am squeezing my life into my life.  So it goes.  I hope I will soon be able to make some comments.

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By Nabih Ammari, May 4 at 4:51 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Subject:More on Muhammad’s Achievements and Greatness.

Dr. Michael H. Hart,author of “The 100:A Ranking of the
Most Influential Person in History”,writes:

Quote
=====
My choice of Muhammad to lead the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others,but he was the only man in
history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels

It may initially seem strange that Muhammad has been ranked higher than Jesus.There are two principal
reasons for that decision.First Muhammad played a far
important role to the development of Islam than Jesus
did in the development of Christianity.Although Jesus
was resposiblefor the main ethical and moral precepts
of Christianity(insofar as these different from Judaism) St.Paul was the main developer of Christian
theology,its principle proselytizer,and the author of
a large portion of the New Testament.

Muhammad,however,was responsible for both the theology of Islam and its main ethical and moral principles.In addition he played a kay role in proselytizing the new faith,and in establishing the
religious practices of Islam.Moreover,he is the author of the Muslim holy scriptures,the Koran{The
Qura’n,Muslims believe,is the revealed Word of God}.

Furthermore,Muhammad(unlike Jesus)was a secular leader as well as a religious leader.In fact,as the
driving force behind the Arab conquests,he may well
ranked as the most political leader of all time.{when
Muhammad died in 632,he was the effective leader of
all of southern Arabia.By 711,Arab armies had swept
completely North Africa to the Atlantic Ocean in a
scant century of fighting,the Bedouin tribesmen,
inspired by the word of the Prophet,had carved out an empire stretching from the borders of India to the
Atlantic Ocean-the largest empire that the world had
yet seen.}

The Arab conquests of the seventh century have continued to play an important role in human history,
down to the present day.It is this unparalleled
combination of secular and religious influence which
I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most
influential single figure in human history.

Unquote
=======

Perhaps,those who have already filed the 13 topics
series I posted about Islam may wish to file all of the above also.
Sincerely,
Nabih Ammari
An Independent in Ohio

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By Nabih Ammari, May 1 at 9:51 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:A new day begins a new week April 28

Shenonymous,

What you are doing in order to understand Islam is the right path to follow.Just keep doing what you are doing and you will be successful in understanding Islam since you are approaching the subject matter with such an obvious open mind;biased to none;only to come CLOSE to the TRUTH.

Yes,Shenon,there are apparent contradictions in the
Qura’n,but they will become marginal as one fathoms
circumstance for which a particular verse appeared in the Qura’n.The following example may explain what I
mean;and then you are able to take it from there as
a contradiction appears to you:

(1)In the series of 13 topics about Islam,I mentioned
that the nomadic Arabs and the settlers Arabs,before
even Islam appeared,they were well aware of Jewish
Arab tribes and Christian Arab tribes in Arabia,who
worshiped a God described in a book.Hence,they called
them the “People of The Book”.This title or rather description remained as such after Islam appeared in
Arabia,in the 6TH century.The “People of The Book”
were mentioned in the Qura’n several times.In most of
the instances mentioned,Muslims were/are instructed
to never harm them and always respect them and make
sure to cooperate with them.Why in most,not all of them? Valid question.The answer is in (2) below:

(2)Please recall with me in the 13 series about Islam
I mentioned that there were in the town of Medina,
formerly called Yathrib,several Jewish Arab tribes.
One of them was called the tribe of Qaynuqa’.All Jewish and other tribes of Medina called Al-Ansar(the
supporters) who signed an accord with Muhammad.The only accord Muhammad ever signed in his entire life.
The Jewish tribe of Qaynuqa’ breached the accord by
making secret contacts and dealings with the most
powerful tribe in all Arabia,the Qurayish tribe in
Meccaa;and who wanted to kill Muhammad and all of his followers’.As the Qaynuqa’ deadly game was discovered
the other Jewish Arab tribes sided with Muhammad and
asked the Qaynuqa’ and their followers/supporters to
leave Medina.After some arguments,Qaynuqa’ left the
town.During this time of heated argumentation a verse
had appeared in which Muslims were instructed to be
alert/careful of those kind of “People of The Book”.In other words,Muslims were instructed to be careful as they dealt with the ilks of Qaynuqa.It happened that Qaynuqa’ was one tribe that had belonged to the “People ofTheBook”.Regrettably,unless one is quite familiar with all of the above,one can conclude that there is a contradiction,since in other places of the Qura’n the instructions were/are benevolent.
Sincerely,
Nabih Ammari
An Independent in Ohio

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By Nabih Ammari, April 30 at 6:38 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:Accessing the forum April 29

Shenonymous,

Yes,I clicked “Jump to Comment” and it worked so far
for page (1),and I could get page (2) of this thread.
Forget about getting pages(4),(5) and (6) and possibly (7).

By clicking “Jump to Comment”,I have NO idea whether
I am getting all the posts or not.Based on my experience in the past,if I did not click on “Arrange
comments by date”,some posts would remain hidden,
especially the ones which were responses to other posts.

Well,at least,I know now that my posts will appear on this thread,although I think that this thread has become over saturated,ready to stop by itself.However
I will try to post some posts before it reaches the
point of no return.Shenon,many many thanks.
Sincerely,
Nabih Ammari
An independent in Ohio.

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By Shenonymous, April 30 at 3:12 am #
(896 comments total)

Accessing the forum

Nabih, your post has shown up.  Do not select Arrange comments by date.  Just select Jump to comments that appears precisely after the article by Chris Hedges.  See if that works.  Contact me again through gmail to let me know if that works.  If not we will try other avenues.

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By Nabih Ammari, April 29 at 5:11 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Subject:This thread might have been over-saturated!!!

This is to inform all of you that I can no longer get your posts on this thread.Each time I click “Arrange comments by date”,the screen of my computer turns into very black black.I had experienced exactly the same problem before at this very thread;and I believe either Senonymous or OzarkMichael or both had,somehow,fixed it with the site.I hope it can be done again this time.

I am not really sure whether or not you are going to get this message.I hope you will.
Sincerely
Nabih Ammari
An Independent in Ohio.

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By dreadnaught, April 28 at 3:36 pm #
(30 comments total)

notes in the margins

In chapter 1 of Armstrong’s “History of God” she writes that “when one religious idea ceases to work for them, it is simply replaced. These ideas disappear quietly, with no great fanfare, like the Sky God.”

1) I can’t help but notice, looking back through my history books, that most gods were “replaced” for these ancient civilizations by those who conquered them. Civilizations seldom stopped eating eachother or rising and falling long enough for Armstrong’s peaceful evolution. The Native Americans, for example, seemed perfectly happy with their own multitudinous gods before the conquistadores arrived. I’m not saying Armstrong’s simple replacement never happened! It just seems like she’s over… simplifying…

2) Which Sky God does she mean? At first this seems like an OCD Howard Hughes sort of question but it is very important. There were a multitude of Big Sky Gods and they did not all die quietly. Jupiter, the Native American Sky Father, Horus, Tian, Sheng Di, the list goes on. Perhaps she is talking about the overall Sky God of Engels and Bachofen? The pan-religious idea of the Big Daddy? I’d say that’s what she means. Reading further along she makes the case that all religions had little gods of places and things and draws other such parallels. So basically she is saying that it is all the same need/want and that religions around the world had to fill the same gaps for people in the same ways. Well, that makes a lot more sense and I can stop worrying about all these little ancient gods rising and falling so quickly. “Stop it, guys, you’re making me dizzy. It was an overall progression throughout the world.”

3) Then we come to the crux of the matter, which is that monotheism, according to Armstrong, was the next step in this progression. The One God crowds all the little gods out. The ancient Chinese god Shang Di, literally “The Lord Above,” became the Christian God when missionaries arrived in China. This seems logical but that isn’t exactly everybody progressing as much as it is one culture meddling with another, much the same as what happened to the Native Americans. If this really is a spiritual pandemic, a universal need, shouldn’t we all be progressing toward the same thing at pretty much the same pace as we evolve? Again I’m not saying she’s wrong, I’m just wondering. Maybe I just can’t see it? I mean… you could sort of say that Buddhism was Indo-China’s own Next Step… except that it is more like polytheism, with its multitudes of small gods, spirits, and Bodhisattvas.

4) I do not know whether Karen Armstrong was right or wrong about this whole thing, I’m puzzling her words out for myself as I go along, but any thoughts anybody wants to throw my way are certainly appreciated.

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By Shenonymous, April 28 at 2:41 pm #
(896 comments total)

Indubitably

With high expectations. 

A wise old Chinese saying:  Once a door is opened, life changes.

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By dreadnaught, April 28 at 2:34 pm #
(30 comments total)

while keeping a straight face

Thank you for agreeing to read my little story when it gets done, Shenonymous. If you are as “tough but fair” with me as you’ve been with Ms Armstrong, my writership will grow by leaps & bounds.

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By Shenonymous, April 28 at 10:19 am #
(896 comments total)

Intrepid

Another example that the content does not seem to follow within the sentences of a paragraph can be found on page xix of the paperback 1993 edition, in the paragraph that starts, “Yet my study of the history of religion has revealed that human beings are spiritual animals...” Here she is theorizing that humans “created religions” almost at once upon evolving into contemplative human form.  This is a claim, but no evidence provided. It is not that I think she is wrong. She probably right. I just think a reference is needed.  She is also saying that these religions were not created “simply because they wanted to propitiate powerful forces; these faiths expressed the wonder and mystery that seem always to have been an essential component of the human experience of this beautiful yet terrifying world. Like art, religion has been an attempt to find meaning and value in life, despite the suffering that flesh is heir to. Like any other human activity, religion can be abused, but it seems to have been something that we have always done.  It was not tacked on to a primordially secular nature by manipulative kings and priests but was natural to humanity.” There is a contradiction lurking within these sentences. She says on the one hand that religion was not merely an invention to appease or conciliate some supernatural entity, but that the awesomeness of what these humans were experiencing is at the basis of religion. We must guess here she means the world as it was encountered, and here is where it gets semantically dicey. She says, “that was always to have been an essential component of the human experience...” but no evidence is given for this “always” status, no footnote of reference. No anthropological or archaeological evidence. She leaves it up to the novice of learning to find the source of this claim. So I, a meticulous historian of the ancient classic world, question the veracity of that conclusion.  I do not think I am being too picky, although being picky is exactly the function of a good historian.  We often must read between not only the lines but to guess the meaning of words! On the other hand, to finish my comparison, when she says “this beautiful yet terrifying world,” she is essentially saying that it was primarily to appease the supernatural. To my knowledge, wonder is not a strong enough emotion to instigate a coherent religion, nor is the perplexity of the mysterious.  To make an overt behavior such as a religion evolve, primitive as it might be, would take the element of fear of the unknown. Or at least I could make that claim based on the same lack of evidence as Armstrong makes a case for the opposite.

Again, in making my case, she goes on to say, “...our current secularism is an entirely new experiment, unprecedented in human history....” But this is not true. There are many incidences of societies that evolved secular beliefs not in a supernatural being but rather believed in a philosophical system or way of life that emphasizes reason, ethics and justice and specifically rejects the supernatural. Secularism can be found in ancient Babylonian societies as well as in the culture of the ancient Greeks who were the first to question the validity of myth. The western mind gradually progressed away from superstitious religions with the greatest advance found in the humanism of the Renaissance.

I have given a few examples but nevertheless will continue on my quest through the mind of Karen Armstrong even though I have found these inconsistencies.  I realize she offers a great deal of valuable historical information. I can do this because I am a trained historian, but I would caution the uninitiates working in historical research to check out all references even those not specifically given as referential because often a writer is not aware of what they have given themselves. I could only lead to more information, not necessarily discrediting Karen Armstrong. That is not my intention at all.

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By Shenonymous, April 28 at 10:18 am #
(896 comments total)

In defiance of the Italics Monster

Most of my time is being spent immersed in a plethora of literature on and thinking about Islam.  Mind-boggling as that is and given that situation, I find I have questions and will take some time here to seek illumination.  Since you recommended a protocol, Nabih, I have been reading Armstrong’s The History of God and as a history researcher myself I am running into some problems reading her style of writing.  I do not doubt she has a wealth of knowledge on the topic we are discussing, and others as well I have discovered.  That is not in question.  It is how she presents her information in a kind of jumbled up way.  I am presently working my way just through her Introduction as I have been taught that a strong foundation provides the correct basis for all other conclusions.  As a scholar of Plato and many other great thinkers for more than 30 years, I have learned that writing must be meticulous if you want your ideas to hold up under scrutiny.  Plato was the most economic writer in my experience who extolled the virtue of efficiency in writing and Aristotle said that good speeches are efficient communications.  In works of art, and I am not saying that Armstrong is involved in making art, but nevertheless she is making artful propositions, nothing is accidental or extraneous.  And a deliberate and concise path of exposition is required for a favorable critique.  This is so the observer does not have to find their way through a labyrinth of thought.  Words themselves are abstractions enough let alone trying to gain insight into another’s thought.  So all this being said, I am asking for some help to get through Armstrong’s writings since you seem to have plumbed the depth of her thinking.  I am finding within paragraphs she has written they are much too full of different ideas to string together cogently and at least in the section where I am, she does not give references.  Questions are implicit and left hanging unresolved.  I am convinced that she has a vast treasury of knowledge, it, however, looks to me that her ideas are not as clearly presented as they could be.  As a teacher of critical thinking I have the credentials to say that.  For instance, as an example, in the last sentence of the first paragraph of her Introduction to the text, I quote, “Since writing this book, however, I have come to believe that it is also incorrect.” What is unclear is exactly what it is “that is also incorrect?” Is it her statement that her own juvenile definition of God as “singularly arid, pompous and arrogant,” is incorrect, or, the catechismic description of “God as a Supreme Spirit who alone exists of Himself and is infinite in all perfections,” is incorrect?  It is not definitely clear and that is the kind of glossing of many of her paragraphs.  It is a lumpy way of getting through her exposition.  I will make this intellectual journey, but I will need help for clarity sake.  I feel I am an intelligent individual and well able to make se