sirota, sirota, I like and enjoy reading many of your musings but your comment: “many of these conspiracy theories are offensive and factually unsupported…” is totally wrong and irresponsible journalism!  If you had bothered to look into and spent less than an hour researching some of these theories, you would not be saying they were factually unsupported!  Get off your duff and look into it.  Just because your grant money grubber Masters require you to go along with the official 9/11 myth is no reason to add to the mass ignorance of the American public!  Is it any wonder people with any kind of independent thought or reason have quit reading and watching the MSM.  I’ll just add Truthdig to my list of corporate funded sell-out grant grubbers.

I read somewhere that some Soviet diplomats were leaving the U.S. to go back to Russia.  Someone asked them what impressed them most about the U.S.  They immediately replied, “The Propaganda”

They used to fill up their air time with cooperative farm reports.  We fill up our time with blood and celebrities.  We are the best in the world.  They have turned America into one big cult.  To blame the people is to blame the victims.  I probably get just as exasperated at their ignorance as you do though.

My starting premise is that Bush is clever and the public is stupid. Why?? Because the public gets it’s information from mainstream media which is controlled? For example how much media exposure do Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich get- nada. How much media attention is given to the North American Union and the Amero. Only one journalist covers it - Lou Dobbs. What about the impending collapse and loss of confidence in the dollar- very little unless you hunt for it. What about factory closings and oursourcing- a taboo subject in mainstream media. What about official government statistics. Do you really in your wildest dreams believe your personal inflation rate is the published number of 2-3%. Did the mainstream media accept the blame for all the hype they printed for WMD’s in Iraq which proved false. No the just stopped printing criticism and it all went away. What about secret programs and projects that become a catch-all excuse when the gov’t doesn’t want you to know. What about groups that control world governments and foreign policy- the CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg, Skull and Bones, Masonic orders whose symbolism is everywhere in govt. architecture. What about lobby groups that influence foreign policy ie. AIPAC. What about programs like “No Child left Behind” which is intended to make America dumber. Americans don’t want to be bored with facts, they want to be entertained. Does the government explain to the public that the Federal Reserve is privately owned and they create money and lend it to the government and we pay taxes to pay the interest. Bush is smart and Americans are stupid. Look at the evidence at the WTC. The press and experts are kept away until the site is sanitized and the evidence is shipped away at godspeed. The inquiry and report is politicized. Your constitution and bill of rights is being dismantled by Bush and Cheney through direct legislation and Executive Orders and you don’t realize it. Bush is smart and you are stupid.
  The election equipment that rigged election results has not been replaced by a failsafe mechanism. Americans wake up because the way you behave and act, you really don’t deserve to be free. Get back to the cartoon page in the newspaper or turn on the Simpsons.

I don’t think we should always worry about a strict interpretation of the Bill of Rights and the Founding Fatheads.  (I don’t think that most of the Founding Fatheads wanted the Bill of Rights by the way)

The right for an individual to keep and bear arms exists because so many people believe in guns enough to buy them.  The second amendment clearly applies to a sort of National Guard with flintlocks, but that is irrelevant now.  Trying to ban firearms would be like trying to ban lawn mowers.  I think that the best way to deal with guns is to go after the myths about guns.  They are not very valuable for defense.  They are actually like keeping a can of gasoline in the house, etc.  They are completely misrepresented in entertainment.

I would deal with pornography by socializing it.  If it is non-profit, then there is no reason to push it.  Otherwise it is just a masturbation/sex aid and nothing else.  Money and prohibition are always the road to disaster and rackets - just like the drug fiasco.

#122706 by cyrena on 12/27 at 12:43 am

“OTOH, I’m not sure that they were particularly interested in making it available to those without money either. At least not based on the context of those thinkers at the time. Even then, money was power, and the power was determined by who had the money.”

While I’m no “groupie” for the founding fathers (and mothers like Abagail and Dolly) I think you may be mistaken about free speech given the context of the time.  The FF saw the King of England imprison men for thought and expression, and they additionally saw those same men become martyred for that speech, they saw that while free and talking, these men did not have the power they gained when imprisoned and remembered. SO they envisioned free speech for ALL, even non-voting chattel, for they knew, whit their money and power they could “marginalize” unwanted thoughts (like socialism and communalism). I hear you, and agree that they were capitalist smugglers and that their “traditional values” were founded on Rum Tobacco and slaves, I just don’t buy that they were as stupid as King George III.

Obviously, the money has to go.  I would kick it out with extreme prejudice since it is just bribery that buys politicians and media alike.  Of course, the Supreme filth decided to make this obscenity look legal and it will be hard to get rid of it.  The 2000 court should be sent to prison, but I am not holding my breath.  Money is more powerful than the atom bomb because it puts the punch behind every possible form of crime.

That aside, the first sin was a lie, and the lie is the parent of every racket.  Every lie is theft.  The problem is that human beings are natural liars and if lying was dealt with at the felony level, we would all be behind bars.  I would like more than anything to see lies exposed and publicly retracted on the media.  Then I would like the liar to stand in a liars corner at a busy intersection with a sign.  No fines, no prison expenses, just humiliation.  I think both commercial and political lies should be dealt with this way, hopefully with little money changing hands.  I don’t have all the answers on this though.  For instance, how do you deal with the lies of omission which are really the worst.  I guess you just have to let the jury decide.

I think direct voting could overcome the hurdles of electronic participation, but the real problem involves presentation of bills.  They would have to be clear, and they would have to be presented by a fair media with a reasonable schedule and timeline.  Like any democratic process, it would have to feel its own way, but it couldn’t be worse than huge confusing bills in congress now.  (Of course they are designed to be that way by the crooks in power.)

The chicken or the egg is not a Buridan’s ass situation.  Just pick the best or most likely one and go for it.  We are in a race between real education and totalitarianism.  (I blame the Nazi filth every time, because they have always controlled the board.)  It isn’t fair to blame the lazy cowards because they are living on a small part of the board.  They are like cows getting milked in a stall devised by the filth.

122591 by Maani on 12/26 at 9:42 am

“I think the issue should be brought up again, perhaps under different specifics, and money should be removed as ‘free speech.’”

I agree wholeheartedly HOWEVER the current maake-up of the SUPREMES does not lend itself to deciding against “money.”

For my money the interpretation of the free speech clause been inadequate for a long while.  I’m not sure that the founding fathers meant that pornography should be protected “free” speech while political speech is limited to those who can afford it.

(>;)#

John:

This is really a case of the chicken and the egg: which came first, an increasingly ignorant and/or ill-informed electorate, or politicans who use lies and “persuasion” to fool the electorate into voting for them?  Sadly, this is not such an easy question to answer.  It was probably more like a synergy of the two, with each “feeding” the other.

There is no question that the electorate has become less and less informed, and the politicans (in large part) more and more cyncical and manipulative.  But I agree with those who fault both: there is plenty of blame to go around.

CY:

I would not give in so quickly to the SC’s decision; i.e., I think the issue should be brought up again, perhaps under different specifics, and money should be removed as “free speech.”  That said, I love your idea of a “liar’s tribunal.”  However, lying need not be a “felony” in order for this to work: simply removing that politican from office and disqualifying him/her (or new candidate) from ever running again would suffice.

Peace.

122490 by John Hanks on 12/25 at 6:29 pm

“I don’t like to blame the people for this.  They are the suckers and lazy cowards who were persuaded by the filth to believe in them.  I’m not sure how it would work, but I favor direct voting.  That would make the American people like a board of trustees.  The crooks would propose, but the people would dispose.  I also favor a liars court of five jurors who could settle disputes about all the lies.  Since the lies are aimed at ordinary people, I think they should make the judgment. If people are called upon to act like they have smarts, they might actually develop some.”

Sounds good, but let’s go one step further.

How about raising the bar so that “lying by a candidate during a campaign” becomes a felony punishable by total disqualification from ever holding elective or appointed office?

The Supremes have ruled that money spent on campaigns is in effect “speech” so lets make it speak in language normal folks can understand so that contributions larger than $1000 must come with a history of how that money was raised/earned.

AND if money is indeed coupled to the first amendment, lets put a human face on it and make all campaign commercials (no matter if they support a candidate by name or not) list the names and occupations of those buying and financing said ads!

When The Clintoons ran in ‘92, & ‘96, they used bushels of Chinese money, and in return gave China MFN status (in spite their human-rights abuses which had been a dis qualifier) In 2000, and 2004 Bush got funds from the Middle East, and the off-shore banks in the Caymans. we know what he did to repay this gift.

Why is foreign money allowed to influence our elections? What are these people buying/selling?

Direct voting might help, but as Deep throat said of the Nixon cover-up…. “Follow the money.”

I don’t like to blame the people for this.  They are the suckers and lazy cowards who were persuaded by the filth to believe in them.  I’m not sure how it would work, but I favor direct voting.  That would make the American people like a board of trustees.  The crooks would propose, but the people would dispose.  I also favor a liars court of five jurors who could settle disputes about all the lies.  Since the lies are aimed at ordinary people, I think they should make the judgment. If people are called upon to act like they have smarts, they might actually develop some.

Regis and Kelly were playing dumb so that their audience would model themselves on it, related, and then tune in again.  Lazy cowards pander to lay cowards.

You don’t have to think that Democrats are clean in order to notice the Republican stench.  The worst thing about the Democrats is that they have always enabled this stuff.  They have never done anything about it, and they have even helped with coverups.  It is really a good crook - bad crook scam.  The Republicans do the robbing and killing while the Democrats drive the getaway car.

122242 by John Hanks on 12/24 at 8:50 am

“These events are not atypical of a certain kind of Republican corporate filth that we have had to endure since they first started making shoddy shoes during the civil war.”

“I can only assume that the Democrats have almost always been the enablers, since they helped to cover up or they looked the other way.”

Well, it is my humble opinion that you let the Democrats off lightly. 

The Tweeds actively stole everything in New York and the surrounding area that wasn’t nailed down. Part of my mother’s family owned the north end of Central park and had a dairy farm there. the Tweeds had “private security” burn their barn, shoot their son, and finally (when they could no longer sell milk) stole their property “for taxes” the taxes were the equivalent of $94 but the Sieberts spoke poor English, and when they tried to pay, the “clerk” told them “he didn’t understand”.  The next day they were forced to vacate, they all learned english and Voted Republican from then on. Fiorello La Guardia ran as a Republican against James J. Walker, and when he won he cleaned up the dirtiest political landscape in the country’s history (including the current mess)

Roosevelt appointed two segregationists to Supreme Court. South Carolina segregationist Democrat Jimmy Byrnes and former KKK member, Alabama Senator Hugo Black. Black had a long history of VERY ACTIVE participation in Klan events..

Then of course we have the Southern Democrat Governors who turned their backs on murder, rape and torture, occasionally participating in the acts. Lester Maddox, won the Georgia governor’s chair after handing out axe handles to his white customers at his fried chicken restaurant. he called the axe handles “nigger beaters” and encouraged customers to “whack any nigger” (who attempted to be served in his restaurant, under the brand new civil rights legislation)

Also strange how the left always points (correctly IMHO) to the Bush ties to Enron, but is silent about Clinton’s ties to Global Crossings.

Sleaze is not defined by the letter next to a politician’s name. Given the opportunity the Democrats can copy Nazi doctrine as well as Republicans. Our only choice (currently) is to never let either of these entities have more than 50% control of anything.  Next election the absolute best thing that could happen is a Republican President and an increased D majority in the Senate, but hopefully NOT veto proof!

Whoa!  Scary!  This is what our democracy, our society has devolved into.  The link is to an actual excerpt - not a parody - from the Regis & Kelly show recently.  As you watch, consider how many people tune in to them each morning (in the many, many millions) and how many people even KNOW who Amy Goodman is, much less watch Democracy Now.

Yikes!

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2007/12/20/regis_philbin_watches_democracy_now

Kissinger and Nixon conspired with South Vietnam to break up the 68 peace talks.  They did this because they wanted to leave Humphrey stuck with the war during the 68 election.  This led to the death of thousands of American soldiers and many more Vietnamese.  The final settlement in 73 was no different from 68.

The coup attempt in 1930 was led by Bush’s grandfather against Roosevelt.  General Butler blew the whistle and put an end to it. 

These events are not atypical of a certain kind of Republican corporate filth that we have had to endure since they first started making shoddy shoes during the civil war.  They have done more harm to the U.S. then the Germans, Japanese, and Soviets combined.

These are the abusers.  I can only assume that the Democrats have almost always been the enablers, since they helped to cover up or they looked the other way.

Stop with the intellectual cowardice MAR.  Look up any of those events I cited.  They are not taught in the schools, but they are common knowledge.  Try googling 1968 Peace Talks for a start.  Then try Major General Smedley Butler.

Stonefruit said: “The disavowal of conspiranoia has become an integral part of the conventional wisdom itself, a social technology of control that establishes the boundaries of “responsible discourse” by reflecting elite consensus on the fundamental nature of social reality, in accordance with the elite’s own class interests.  This makes for an incredibly effective means of establishing ruling class hegemony by controlling dissent, foreclosing alternatives, engineering support, and transmuting the interests of the ruling class into that of the nation (or “first world”) as a whole.”

This is brilliant!  It should be required reading for every open-minded, non-sheep person in the U.S.  I would only add my earlier comment that this also explains my “whisteblower” theory: i.e., that even if someone attempts to leak, much less break open, a government conspiracy, that person’s “dissent” is easily “controlled” via (i) ridiculing them in the media as a “kook” or “conspiracy nut,” (ii) finding out any and all dirt on them to discredit them, and/or (iii) if all else fails, threatening them or their families.

Hanks:

You ask for “something decisive.”  You might as well ask for “proof” of God’s existence.  LOL.  The whole point is that we will NEVER find “something decisive” about ANY successful conspiracy, including Pearl Harbor, JFK or 9/11 (though the latter may, possibly, hopefully become the exception to the rule).  In any case, one cannot read ONE single book and make a claim based thereon.  You need to read ALOT of stuff - on BOTH sides - and learn to “read between the lines” and “discern” where the truth (or most probable truth) is.

Cyrena:

You’re welcome.  Also, re hijackers, I do not doubt that they were involved, though (i) some or all were likely CIA-related (keep in mind that OBL and those who became Al Qaeda were the very mahujadeen rebels that the CIA backed with weapons and intelligence against the Russians in Afghanistan), and (ii) they were gotten onto the planes sub rosa, since none of their names appear on any of the passenger manifests.  Indeed, it stretches credibility to believe that on 9/10, the CIA, FBI et al had NO idea of who was involved, and then, less than 36 hours later, they had the names and photos of “all 19” hijackers.  Even setting aside that at least five (and possibly seven) of the hijackers materialized alive in the weeks and months following, the government cannot have it both ways: either they are incompetent (for not knowing about it) or they knew SOMETHING (since they came up with ALL the hijackers in record time).

Finally, some interesting stuff about Atta and some of his men: (i) the two flying schools at which they trained in Florida were bought by Scandinavian nationals about a year before 9/11, and sold about six months after 9/11 - both of whom had worked for the CIA in Scandinavia; (ii) two of Atta’s men were living in a community built specifically for the fmailies of CIA members - one of them in the house of a CIA member’s family!; and (iii) Atta and his men were living high on the hog - drinking, smoking, cussing, doing cocaine, getting lap dances - ALL of which are punishable under shariah law (two by death).  Yet we were told (over and over) that these were hard-core, “fanatical Islamic fundamentalists.”  Hmmm…

Peace.

MAR:

We do not have a stupid conspiracy alone.  We have a stupid right-wing movement.  They tried a coup d’etat in 1933.  They have fomented numerous wars, especially in South America and even Vietnam.  Since they are a bunch of habitual crooks, they have committed treason many times including the cold blooded murder of many Americans.  (The 1968 peace talks are a prime example).  Political assassinations are almost a hobby.  They use the force of stolen money gained through crookerism.  And they use the fraud of crook media.  (Of course that was just handed over to them.)

Individual Americans are friendly, bemused and almost totally ignorant.  The real problem comes when the gather in criminal packs.  Canada is hardly a pillar or rectitude, but at least the elite there will just stick to stabbing you in the back without stabbing you front and back.

Maani:

You promised me facts about Roosevelt and Pearl Harbor.  You gave me some.  But, not enough.  If you read, “At Dawn We Slept” you will find out that there is a lot of confusion over military and diplomatic codes.  I have yet to be convinced that Roosevelt was a traitor.  I am used to thinking the worst of people, but I need to see something decisive.  The criminal record of the Republican party is obvious, so my bias is always against them.

purplewolf:

Re Marvin Bush, he was a director of Securacom, the company that had the security contract for the WTC complex at the time of the attacks.  Note that two weeks prior to the attack, WTC management and Securacom sent a notice around to the tenants that there would be a “power down” over the weekend, and to make sure all critical data was backed up on hard drives.  Power went down Sat AM and returned on Sun afternoon.  We can only imagine what chicanery occurred during that 36-hour period.  And yes, MB resigned from Securacom not long after 9/11.

Hanks:

Re Pearl Harbor, as one who has studied this stuff VERY deeply for a VERY long time, let me give you the facts.  The Japanese “Enigma” code was broken in March/April of 1941.  But since they did not know we had cracked the code, they continued sending info that way.  Note also that Roosevelt was looking for a way into the war - not specifically in the Atlantic (i.e., German) theater, but in ANY way at all.  And since the Germans and Japanese had a military pact, Roosevelt knew that he could justify fighting against Hitler even if Hitler did not directly provoke the U.S.

By early Fall 1941, Roosevelt knew that the Japanese were planning an attack on “a U.S. naval base.”  It is possible that Roosevelt assumed it would be Guam (since it was much closer to Japan).  If so, he most probably rationalized that the loss of personnel and material at Guam would be minimal, but would give him his excuse to go to war with the Japanese - and, by proxy, with their allies, the Germans.

Still, there are some historians who believe that Roosevelt knew it would be Pearl Harbor, but did not expect the ferocity of the attack.  They believe this because (i) in the week prior to 12/7, Roosevelt moved all the major vessels at Pearl Harbor (e.g., aircraft carriers) out, leaving only a few destroyers, mine ships, etc., (ii) by moving the large vessels out, he minimized personnel at the base, and (iii) the majority of personnel still at the base were on shore leave that day, so the majority (though obviously not all) were not at the base when the attack came.

In any event, on December 6th, popular DISapproval for going to war with Germany or Japan was over 85%.  On December 7th, after the attack, popular APPROVAL was 92%, and over 1 million men volunteered - the largest voluntary army ever created.

As for “representative voting,” what needs to happen is (i) eliminate the electoral college, (ii) make the U.S. a true “one man, one vote” democracy, and (iii) create a voting system that registers both a super-encrypted computerized vote and a paper “receipt vote.”  Sadly, it seems that this is WAY to logical for the powers that be.

Peace.

122044 by John Hanks on 12/23 at 9:13 am

“There is no solid evidence that Pearl Harbor was a false flag attack.  The right-wing Roosevelt haters have repeated this lie so many times that it has been accepted as gospel.”

I am NOT a Roosevelt hater, nor do I accept the notion that Pearl was a false flag event.

I DO believe that in taking a nation from an isolationist stand to a war involves some trickery.  There is no “Hard” evidence Nixon directed the plumbers to the Watergate Hotel, HOWEVER Nixon did do something, what that “something” was we will probably never know. There is no “HARD evidence” that Reagan knew what Oliver was doing in the basement of the old executive office building…. BUT he knew something was going on, and he earns my disrespect for never investigating. 

There is evidence that the Japs warned Washington 30 minutes before the bombs dropped at Pearl, and the story is some low level bureaucrat botched the pass.

Skip to 9/11 There is evidence that an FBI agent in Arizona warned the FBI head offices in Washington that the WTC was a target… the story is that some low-level bureaucrat dropped the ball.

What IS amazing to me is the defense of Roosevelt on issues similar to ones for which Bush is reviled.

Guesss this is known as “partisanship?

MAR.  I think you have to much gullibility to live in the States right now.  The best way to solve our problems is to get rid of representative government by having direct voting.  Ordinary people have more objectivity and it is impossible to bribe them all.
Conspiracies are the stuff of almost everything since Adam met Eve, so you are pretty gullible there too.  To every problem there is a simple solution - and it is wrong.

As to history:
There is no solid evidence that Pearl Harbor was a false flag attack.  The right-wing Roosevelt haters have repeated this lie so many times that it has been accepted as gospel.  F.D.R. was trying to create a pretext for war on the Atlantic side - not the Pacific.  Read “At Dawn We Slept”.  The Vietnam pretext was created by sending special forces to sabotage things in North Vietnam.  This may have led to the PT Boat “Attacks”.  911 was a deliberate and directly connected attack on the American people in order to create a pretext.  Bush got 50 “warnings”.  Arguably, Roosevelt might have gotten 1.

Response to: troublesum

I get that argument all the time that 911 couldn’t have been an inside job because so many people would have to know about it and it would be impossible to keep secret.  Lets challenge that.

More than 120,000 men and women worked on the Manhattan Project.  These people worked for, what? five years or so on making those bombs.  The project was so secret that vice president Truman, on becoming president, had to be told about the project because he knew nothing about it.  120,000 people spending billions of dollars making weapons that could be seen from hundreds of miles away (thanks New Mexico!)and no one knew a thing.  Funny.

Rigging a phony terrorist attack seems to me to be about a million times simpler especially when you control the press and you can ridicule anyone that dares question that 1 + 1 really doesn’t equal 3.

Am I wrong?

Is FCC chair Kevin Martin a familymember of Steven Martin, the Albert Einstein College of Medicine Associate Professor and program director of Jacobi.

John:

You’re welcome.  Glad I could be of service.  And you’re right; works for business (and crime) too…

Horatio (and all):

If you want to see the “genesis” of 9/11, take the time to read a document that is available on the Web, called “Rebuilding America’s Defenses.”  It was written by Project for the New American Century (a neocon think tank) in 2000 - a full year before 9/11.  Although ostensibly a rethinking of the country’s defense structure, it also goes into some specifics about dealing with various countries (including Iraq and Iran).

Most importantly, it makes the astounding statement that they realized that the American people would NEVER buy into their strategy “absent a catalzying, catastrophic event - like a new Pearl Harbor” (which is where David Ray Griffin got the title for his book).

It is not coincidence that within 18 months of writing this document, the neocons had exactly what they were looking for: a new Pearl Harbor; a “catalyzing, catastrophic event” that turned the American public around, allowing the neocons to begin controlling the masses through fear by (a) creating a never-ending “war on terror” and (b) creating an external scapegoat “other” (OBL, Al Qaeda, Islam), and (ii) provide an excuse to begin limiting or actually taking away freedoms, civil liberties and privacy in the name of “security.” The Patriot Act and the Department of Homeland Security were only the two most obvious outgrowths of this strategy.  Others have been noted in other posts.

Note also that the Patriot Act bill did not magically materialize less than a month after 9/11: one does not write a 200-page bill in 30 days. Rather, it was pre-written, sitting on a shelf until the moment came to present it to Congress.  As well, the way in which it was presented was highly suspect: (i) there were so few copies printed that they needed to be shared among the over 500 Congressional reps, (ii) it was presented on a Friday, with the expectation of a vote on Monday (i.e., 500 reps were expected to read a 200-bill over the weekend - when there weren’t even enough copies to go around!), and (iii) when it came up for vote on Monday, at least 25% of the bill had been changed (and not for the better…) by those who originally presented it.  This is why many otherwise “good” reps ended up voting FOR the bill; because most had not had a chance to read it, and those who did would have had to bring it up for debate based on the changes, they felt that they would look “soft on terrorism” if they voted against it or debated details.

The most important reason why many people have a hard time accepting the idea of direct government complicity in 9/11 - i.e., in planning and executing it - is because, even if people distrust Bush & Co., even if they don’t buy the “official story,” even if they believe (as you do) that the government is at least guilty of negligence and/or malfeasance, most people simply cannot wrap their minds around the idea that their government would wantonly murder 3,000 of its own citizens in order to advance a political agenda.

Yet if you look at the history of U.S. “false flag” operations, you will see not only the most obvious - Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin et al - but also many lesser ones (outside the U.S.) in which U.S. citizens (not just military, but civilians as well) WERE killed during operations in which their deaths were considered “collateral damage” in the cause of “the greater good.”  Yes, 3,000 is alot more than a few dozen or less, and U.S. soil is different from foreign.  But it is really just a matter of degree.

Peace.

The sad truth about humanity is that it is almost always a sucker for a protection racket or a war starter scheme.  So, yes, I think that you are right in expecting another phony stunt before Bush leaves.  The crooks almost have to do something to avoid ending up in prison or on the gallows.

After closely watching the neocons and their puppet, George W. Bush, I have concluded that they at least allowed the 9/11 attack, planning to capitalize on its opportunity for the Iraqi war, tax cuts for the rich, etc. In effect, it enabled a peaceful revolution, bringing swift change toward a tyrannical government. I would not assume that there are not plans for something else in the future to maintain this revolution.

Thank you Maani for your description of how a conspiracy works.  Very succinct and very useful.  The definition fits in business as well as in crime.

Our problems are not really moral.  They are structural.

This attack on the World Trade Center and the administration just tells people to support the country just go out and spend, I don’t believe we can spend our way into making this country better, just remember what will happen when all the natural resources are used up.

The Wal-mart mentality will destroy this country, first of all we don’t need all the posessions that is put before us, for example needing the remote control for our television, I know that with the DOT com generation not watching television who needs all those channels saying a lot but saying nothing.

I just know that this administration just wants people to give up on government and then government will be in control, first bad government then bad leaders then we get an inside government, this country thought Russia was corrupt, we are heading in that direction.

People have to change the money changers in Washington, saying what is the sense of voting is giving up, what people should be saying is I want my vote to count, the founding fathers were learned men so they figured that this country had a lot unlearned people and we needed an Electoral College, that is no longer going to work in a country this large, the media does not need to know who will be president when he does not take office for another three months.  Get rid of the Electoral Collage then canidates have to go to all states not just the ones that will get them elected.

I know that since Congress is tied up why not try things up with Impeachment on Emperor George and Shotgun Chaney.

Troublesum:

Let me explain how a successful conspiracy works, and why it does not matter how many people may be involved vis-a-vis “keeping it a secret.”

A successful conspiracy is built like a pyramid.  Those on the bottom may not even know that the action they have been asked to take is part of a larger conspiracy; e.g., do YOU question every order your boss gives you, especially when they SEEM benign?  Thus, many of the (simpler) tasks may be performed without the person knowing they are contributing to a larger whole.

On the next levels are people who are told only what they “need to know”: and, again, while they may have some inkling that there is a larger “picture,” they may not know how their part contributes to it.  For example, if you are a CEO of a company, and a person from, say, Cheney’s office calls and asks you to do something “in the name of national security,” are you going to refuse?  More likely, you will feel “special” for having been asked and being brought into the “confidence” of the VP.

Finally, on the next-to-highest levels are people who may know MOST of the details, but not all.  In this case, they are either playing their part because they truly feel that they are doing right (i.e., rationlizing murder in the name of “the greater good”) or because they are given little or no choice.  For example, threats may be made that include that person and/or their family.  Would YOU say “no” under that circumstance?

Thus, everyone does their little part, with many people not even knowing they are part of a larger whole; many people on a “need to know” basis, but not in possession of enough details to really see the whole picture; some people acting out of a belief that what they are doing is right (again, even if that means doing something heinous in the name of “national security”); and some people acting out of fear or self-preservation.

Obviously, this structure is not COMPLETELY fool-proof, but it works very well in most cases.  There had to be at least a couple of dozen involved in the Reichstag fire, the attack on Pearl Harbor (though all of them would have been high-level military or political personnel), and the completely phonied-up Gulf of Tonkin incident; and, yes, at least hundreds involved in 9/11.

But the system “holds” because (i) the people at the bottom have “plausible deniability” because they simply do not know the whole picture, and (ii) the people at the top have plausible deniability by being directly connected only to those at the second level (who, as noted, may be under severe threat).

As for potential whistleblowers, they can easily be discouraged either by threats against them and/or their families; by being “disappeared” (77 of the 200 witnesses to the JFK killing were dead within two years); or, as Missy notes, via ridicule.  After all, let’s say you helped plant the CD explosives at the WTC, and you come out and say so.  Who is going to believe you?  Especially with the power of the government and media ridiculing you, and finding any and all “dirty laundry” in your past to discredit you?  After all, YOU don’t even believe there was a conspiracy at all!

Peace.

You would have to have the intelligence of a 6 year old to believe the Kennedy assassinations, the King assassination, the slaughter of well over three thousands innocent Americans on 9/11 was perpetrated the way the British controlled right wing media tells us. Anyone with an IQ over sixty should know all of these murders led up to our loss of this beloved country by the extreme right. At one time the Republicans (Aka Conservatives right wingers) had some decent people in the party. Using fear, intimidation, and black-listing the extreme right kicked out all of them. When I see video of young men and women jumping out of the World Trade Center I wonder how many of them voted for the right wing Republicans (Aka Conservatives right wingers) so they would feed on their phony tax cuts. These right wingers in my opinion have the capacity for evil that even the mythical devil doesn’t have.

Bu$hCo lies about their agenda because no forefather-respecting American would buy what their selling. Which leads me to my New Year’s Resolution. So long as Bu$hCo dictates, I’ll labor to continue:

using no credit
abstaining from nearly all insurance
dodging celebration by commercialism
spending no more that $20 per month on gasoline
circumventing paying bad doctors and greedy lawyers
paying less annual federal tax than most people earn in a week
working for chosen locals for even fewer dollars than illegal labor
volunteering my skill/labor to help neighbors avoid paying corporations
educating myself so I can do more for those who cannot do for themselves
banding with others to negotiate or create greatly reduced costs on common services

“How are you going to find that many people willing to kill thousands of their fellow citizens?”

Hummm

Civil (sic) war?

I don’t think we are looking at a vast right-wing filth conspiracy.  We are really looking at something more like a vast right-wing filth movement.  Most of our national leadership proves the survival of the filthiest.  They have become an “enemy domestic”.  It is time to take their money and their rackets away.  We don’t need Socialism.  We need socialisms.  Instead of one big socialized media, we need many socialized medias.  Socialisms reduce big crooks into little crooks.

distroubledsum;take a deep breath, refrain and focus. You post a nice specious deflection. Looking for conspiracy w/a flashlight doesn’t motivate me at all.

In light of the copious amount of meaningful hard data. Look at the soft colateral side of why and how you contain the criminal mass murder on 9/11…...
...All you need to know about the WTC is to take a little inventory of the people who were Not there on a Tues.
You can start w/the CEO of Cantor Fitzgerald.

Merry Christmas

“Only small secrets need to be protected.  Big ones are kept by public incredubility” - Marshall McLuhan

Now, what about the conspiracy of silence ?

“A democratic civilization will save itself only if it makes the language of the image into a stimulus for critical reflection — not an invitation for hypnosis.”  - Umberto Eco

HOPE FOR THE BEST
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JLc5dqZCOU

Meanwhile…

« We are watching a poorly staged rendition of Wag the Dog, interpreted for the morbidly stupid and performed by the criminally insane. » - Jules Carlysle

for indeed…

« Politics is the entertainment branch of industry.» - Frank Zappa

HAVE A GREAT ONE ANYWAY

PEACE !

Generations of Americans have done nothing but sit in front of a TV set that tells them what they should think, wear, eat, buy, look like, feel like etc.,etc.
Nothing but constant 24/7 manipulation by Madison and Pennsylvania Avenues. 

Individualism and the questioning of anyone in authority has been discouraged and condemned. The first thing that perished was accountability at any level in government, Wall Street or the local car repair shop.

Nobody is to blame for anything that happens in this country. Just keep paying your taxes and don’t question anything - trust the suits and skirts who couldn’t give a damn about the people they’ve been elected to serve. 

Well, we the people are the only ones that can take this country back and until enough of us give a crap to take the action necessary to do it, just keep bending over and grabbing your ankles because the powers that be are not about to let up or give it up voluntarily.

The real conspiracy is how could several hundred million people become so disinterested in their own country and well being to allow it’s disintegration to happen without so much as a whimper of complaint.

Pathetic.

“But while many of these conspiracy theories are offensive and factually unsupported…”

Talk about dismissive!  Let’s not forget the old saw: “Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you.”

Let’s look at this for a moment.  The phrase “conspiracy theory” is comprised of two words: “conspiracy” (when two or more people plan and/or execute a particular, usually illegal, action) and “theory,” a belief supported by evidence.

In this regard, the government’s “official story” is no less a “conspiracy theory” than the alternative theories of 9/11.  The government claims there was a “conspiracy” (including OBL and Al Qaeda) to hijack commercial airliners and fly them into buildings.  The government’s “evidence” in support of this “theory” is the 9/11 Commission Report.

So far, so good?  Okay, without getting into detail about controlled demolitions, etc., let’s just look at the 9/11 Commission Report.

The Commission was comprised of an equal number of Democrats and Republicans - ALL of whom were either Bush pere, Clinton or W cronies.  As well, the number of conflicts of interest in this relatively small group were legion.  Several of them had Board or fiduciary positions with the two airlines involved (American and United) and/or with Boeing, the maker of the planes.  Three - including the Commission’s attorney - were members of law firms that were representing either corporations involved in 9/11 (airlines, property owners, etc.) or - even more perversely - individuals who were accused of aiding and abetting terrorism.  I kid you not.

As well, the Executive Director of the Commission - responsible for determining which lines of inquiry to follow, which evidence and witnesses to present to the Commission - was Philip Zelikow.  In case you don’t know, Zelikow was a member of the Aspen Strategy Group, a neocon think tank that included Cheney, Rice, Wolfowitz, Perle and others. He was on Bush pere’s National Security Council. He was a member of the Bush-Cheney transition team. And he wrote a book, and is close friends, with Condi Rice.  No conflicts of interest there!

And I haven’t even started to get to the actual Report yet!

Just as the Warren Commission Report was a sham, the 9/11 Commission Report was a whitewash of the highest order.

The “official story” is a “conspiracy theory” no less than alternative theories.  And there is as much (or more) legitimate, scientific, supporting evidence for various aspects of the alternative theories as there is for the “official story.”

Don’t be fooled.  Do your own research.  In this regard, it is worth re-printing Revere’s post:

“[I]f the…government was complicit in 9/11 then it is now succeeding in total subjugation of the people.  The next staged shock assault should…[affect] the conclusive crushing blow to human liberty.  Since 9/11 we have opened up torture as a legitimate subject of debate, lost habeas corpus, effectively thrown away the Posse Comitatus Act, thrown away fourth amendment privacy and are now undercutting freedom of speech with HR-1955 the Homegrown Terrorism Thought Crime Bill…[T]his is not about being disgruntled or having a loss of confidence in government, its about being on the verge of…serfdom.  This then would place us in a full-blown emergency.”

Peace.

Felicity/Greg Bacon, you guys pretty much state the cause and effect. Lovely isn’t it?

re: #121732 by Greg Bacon

Amen! Amen! Amen!
And every time I hear Bush has left the country, I smell a dirty bomb fuse burning.

all corporations are involved in conspiricy of some sort or they are on the verge of it, or they go bankrupt, so we elect all these ceo’s and ceo wannabee’s, why do we complain? we asked for it, and got it, so what we give the national treasure away with the country, and all of those young men and women, just murdered for some money for haliburton,et al. there is no bigger disgrace, these guys are the worse traitors ever!

louie

We don’t need elections, we need guillotines.

121705 by FilthyCherry on 12/21 at 9:16 am

“I guess JFK was the biggest conspiracy theorist of them all judging from the speech he gave warning about a secret shadow government.”

Eisenhower was the first president to direct public attention to the “shadow government” which he later labeled the Military-industrial complex.” He was very worried that paid vendors would get control of the reigns of government and as non-elected people take us to a place where “free citizens” should not go.

Eisenhower(you will remember)had reason to be familiar with the military!

Ben Franklin once opined; “The republic will fail when the people find they can vote themselves money.”

I suppose someone (not me) could call that statement a “conspiricy theory”

David Sirota

I don’t know how Mr Sirota’s age, however he seems to thing this “conspiricy thing” is relatively new, or a product of “a crisis that is a predictable reaction to a government that now all but admits it breaks laws, hides information and disregards the public.”

Bad news; depending how one defines “conspiricy theories” they have been with us for a very long while.  Right after the Maine exploded in Havana Harbor in February of 1898 there were “theories”. The government used one of these to start the Spanish American war.

Did Roosevelt know about Pearl Harbor and let it happen to get a resistant isolationist population aroused enough to fight the Japanese and Germans? The tongues were wagging before the Arizona sank.

As to the Kennedy assassination, the New York Times reported in 1977 that fully 55% of the people alive on the day of Kennedy’s death did not believe the findings of the Warren Commission.

The Amsterdam news reported in 1984, that New York’s African American population “deeply distrusted” the Idea that James Earl Ray acted alone in the murder of Dr. Martin Luther King. Then in 1998, The King family alleged that Loyd Jowers, owner of Jim’s cafe which overlooked the Lorraine Motel, admitted in a television interview in 1993 and again in conversations with Dexter King and civil rights leader, former congressman and U.N. Ambassador Andrew Young, that he paid $100,000 to have an assassin,named Raoul murder the civil rights leader.

James Earl Ray, the only person ever tried in the case, contended for years that a man named Raoul had framed him for King’s murder. 

So “conspiricy theory” or not, sometimes the government (for whatever reason) lies… It is the duty of citizens to be ever vigilant in seeking the truth. Those seeking truth should never be dismissed as “tin-foil hat” nuts.

SO THIS IS WHAT A DECADE OF REPUBLICAN PARTINSHIP HAS SHOWN US.

The apathetic public probably can’t afford to shop or drive anywhere anyway.  It isn’t apathy, it’s mental fungus.  The MSM can’t seem to focus on anything but gonads & their implications in our future democracy.  Are the gonads real or nipped/tucked?  Are they legal/moral?  Christian/Muslim/Jewish/Secular Progressive?  How many other gonads have they “known”?  How old are they?  Are they cancerous or obese?  Are they attached to a Presidential candidate?  One with wrinkles and debatable cleavage like Fred & Rudy?

Although we can’t afford health care, everything we eat, drink, smoke or bag groceries in causes cancer after it contributes to high-cholesterol and exorbitant pharma profits.

The FCC is part of this MSM conspiracy, financed by the CEO’s.  Ain’t it great in the USA?

The main problem, the short-sighted administration is missing, is that once lost, trust is almost impossible to gain back, and without it…

Think back to 911. The EPA, with absolutely no scientific basis for it, proclaimed that all the gases and dust from the collapse was “safe”.
They didn’t do their job AT ALL. They claim they wanted to prevent panic.

Even if you take them at their word (which I do not), that is only going to work once. The NEXT big event, nobody is going to believe them. EVEN if it is true that time. They have sown the seeds of panic.

Government agencies in charge of public safety have only their reputations as truth-tellers as their real power. When they outright lie, or state things with no real knowledge, they lose their credibility and make themselves ineffective.

But since this administration doesn’t “believe” in government (except when a state tries to mandate fuel standards, suddenly they are NOT pro-states rights, and in fact want huge government control) they discredit it at every turn.

I don’t know what to think about Bilderburg, but I DO know for sure that the bunch of crooks in power (both sides of the aisle too) are not serving us, they think we are their servants, children, and fodder. We, the people, are abstract “problems” or fodder for them.

And there is nothing anyone is going to do about it.

When bad has been choreographed to a near perfection of appearing good and good is packaged as bad you’re near the tipping point.

Its been said.“The 9/11 Coup d’Etat was an intelligence failure. It was a spectacular intelligence success.”

All you need to know about the WTC is now very clear, simply take an inventory of all the people who were Not there on Tues. 9/11.
Suddenly this dark, cruel Twilight Zone we’re in begins to transform the denial and disbelief to anger.
They had us looking up from a distance seeing only the outside - when this criminal mass murder was commited in broad daylight from the inside.