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Gore Vidal on the Democratic Debate Debacle

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Posted on Dec 18, 2007
Democrats in Iowa
AP photo / Charlie Niebergall

Hmmm ... something’s missing.  What, or who, could it be?  Six Democratic presidential candidates, sans Dennis Kucinich, line up on Dec. 13 in Johnston, Iowa, for the last debate before that key state’s primary.

By Gore Vidal

I don’t know how many of you were as appalled as I was at the way that the presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich was totally erased from the last Democratic debate held in Iowa.  This was a decision that was made, I can tell, jointly by the one-time voice of AIPAC, Mr. Wolf Blitzer, and, at the same time, The Des Moines Register—or whatever it is called—a paper of no consequence for the United States of America.

Elements of right-wingism are keeping his voice from being heard, even though there are many millions of us (Kucinich is ahead of both Biden and Dodd in the national polls) out here who like to hear his voice.  He is in the great tradition of the original People’s Party of the 1880s; he is in the tradition of George Washington and of Thomas Jefferson, and to silence him with a bunch of political hacks who have made such a mess of our political system, pretending these were the only voices who could talk as presidential candidates ... is it because of their campaign budgets?

Now, I know, as all of you know, that people can come in with millions of dollars, like Romney and so on, and can buy time in Iowa and in the North Pole or wherever it is they are running.  They can buy it, but to get an honest member of Congress speaking out for the people of the country is a great and rare thing.

I have listened to many political debates in my lifetime, if I may pull rank because I have been around longer than anybody else, and here is a voice not only against the war but the entire course leading us to it.  I haven’t heard anybody who has ever listened to Kucinich who didn’t say, “Oh yes, yes, what he says is true, but nobody will ever take him seriously.”

Well, of course nobody will ever take him seriously, because they won’t let him on TV to stand side by side with the other candidates—some of them attractive candidates but whose roots are not as deep as his in what we may call “American life.”  Dennis Kucinich was brought up in poverty, something the other candidates talk about but he actually lived through.  He has known poverty in the richest country on Earth, a country that is constantly boasting, that seems to be out of control with self-love.  Well, I say let’s have less self-love and pay some attention to our serious critics—and he is one—and his is a voice that’s showing us how to get to the exit from the box that we are all in.

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It is so typical for CNN, a lousy network, and whatever that awful newspaper is called.  Do we want to listen to them at the close of a primary campaign in a key state?  They have nothing to say of any interest, and so they eliminate any voice that might say something intelligent.  I have never felt more ashamed being an American than when I saw how this debate was handled. 


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By John Hanks, January 5, 2010 at 9:12 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Except for the Bill of Rights, the Constitution is a major source of most of our problems.  It plunged us into a civil war within 50 years based on the foibles of a landed aristocracy in the senate backed up by an obscene supreme court.

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By John Hanks, December 27, 2007 at 9:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Kathleen.  Assuming you are right, how do we know what the bills really contained?  Almost every bill in Congress has other things buried along side.

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By kathleen Kain, December 27, 2007 at 3:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Antispin:

Why not vote for Edwards? He co-sponsored the resolution that gave Bush the greenlight to bomb Iraq, he co-wrote the Patriot Act, he voted for China trade knowing full well their record on abuse of human and worker rights, in 2004 he refused to commit to canceling NAFTA although he castigated Kerry for voting for NAFTA, and he invested millions in hedge funds while touting his concern for the poor. This guy is as much an opportunist as Clinton and should hide away for shame in his 30,000 sq. ft mansion instead of running for the White House.

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By John Hanks, December 25, 2007 at 7:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Sorry “weather”.  Anger is toxic because it makes people stupid.  Hatred is not because it helps people to be smart.  Google the word “hatred” and find out.  There are a number of good definitions.  Your typical Republican has a habitual anger against anything intelligent or sophisticated.  They do not have a habitual hatred because that would require powers of discrimination and it is not as emotionally satisfying as anger is.

The left sees everything in old fashioned Christian good versus evil terms.  That is why they don’t realize that it is always evil versus evil.  Think of all the propaganda that you have been forced to swallow about love, hate, etc.

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By weather, December 25, 2007 at 1:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Come on John Hanks, hate is toxic. Hate is fear’s only chance at being angry/resentful/revengeful and usually accompanied w/pride/ego and that grants justification and that can never be good.

I’d much rather be happy than right, cause my idea of what’s right can be flawed and ultimately it blocks me from being free.

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By antispin, December 25, 2007 at 1:25 pm Link to this comment

Vidal writes, “I have never felt more ashamed being an American than when I saw how this debate was handled.”  I’ve got to believe there’s a bit of hyperbole here, but I’m sure Vidal knows when to pepper his exhortation to action with exaggeration.  It trul ranks with some of the more awful moments in base politicking the U.S. has suffered.  Hillary and Barack both show symptoms of having been bought out.  With Hillary it’s a fore gone conclusion (shilling for Walmart, for example,) but for Barack: check out Krugman’s expose on 527’s.  http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/24/opinion/24krugman.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Given the vitriol “people” like O’Reilly sling at Edwards…and given that Kucinich seems to be totally ecclipsed in the media, is ther hope in getting begind an Edwards candidacy?  I’d prefer Kucinich, but I sense the spark of success in Edwards.

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By John Hanks, December 25, 2007 at 11:11 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I wear my “Stop the 911 Cover-up” pin every day.  I wish you could see my car.  I am known as the “Bush hater”, when I don’t get the usual “He’s crazy”. 

Most Americans are just lazy cowards.  They are scared witless and they are too lazy to find out where the threat is.  Look at the Spanish.  They suspect a rat in their subway attacks right away.  And they were lucky enough to vote the filthy bastard out right away.

We hated the Japanese.  We hated the Germans and Soviets.  Can’t we find enough room in our black hearts to hate the Republicans, Zionists and all the other 911 filth.  (By the way, black hatred breeds determination and guts, while anger breeds violence.)

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By Bill Blackolive, December 25, 2007 at 9:28 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

We may carry on and carry on more, but I wish we would never forget that Schizoid Nation keeps one achilles heel, the 9/11 coverup.  All of you fussing above ought to imagine what would be occuring were enough voices to eventually push this into corporate TV.  It would be worse distruction of personal US citizen identies than had OJ found exactly who killed his ex.  The hippies could rise again, no telling.  Pot could get legal, anything might happen.  Anyrate we would be rid of God-likes-the-US-best.  Ah, the world of puny man would be freer.

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By Douglas Chalmers, December 25, 2007 at 1:02 am Link to this comment

#122344 by Ice on 12/24 at 9:47 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

#122313 by nazilieskill.us on 12/24 at 4:45 pm
“This will sound weird. .....In my blank, unholy cloud of zerolumens, your cold black hatred is merely soothing emollient…”


MERRY CHRISTMAS, YOU TWO, UHH!!! http://www.truthdig.com/holiday/message/

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By Ice, December 24, 2007 at 10:47 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#122313 by nazilieskill.us on 12/24 at 4:45 pm
“This will sound weird.  It is almost always bad to experience fear and anger in regard to someone else.  That almost always leads to demoralization.  (The Republican filth know that instinctively.  That is why they are such bullies.) In my opinion it is far better to feel a cold black hatred.  That clears out the cobwebs.”

naz—-you say the republicans are filth. I say they are pinworms living in filth. You offer only cold, black hatred, whereas I apply the unrelenting, aching chaos of the maximum gravity well, where any hope of redeeming the foe is shredded before it can take form. In my blank, unholy cloud of zerolumens, your cold black hatred is merely soothing emollient.

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By nazilieskill.us, December 24, 2007 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

This will sound weird.  It is almost always bad to experience fear and anger in regard to someone else.  That almost always leads to demoralization.  (The Republican filth know that instinctively.  That is why they are such bullies.)  In my opinion it is far better to feel a cold black hatred.  That clears out the cobwebs.

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By John Hanks, December 24, 2007 at 12:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To bad we can’t vote directly against this latest crook enterprise.  It is impossible to bribe all of the people. We will pay and pay and pay for these buckets and buckets of filth.

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By Douglas Chalmers, December 24, 2007 at 12:21 pm Link to this comment

#122265 by Non Credo on 12/24: “...hate and blood lust towards any nation that challenges Israel’s regional dominance and nuclear monopoly. They hate Iran even more than they love Israel. They desire vengeance more than they desire peace or happiness or anything else….”

Good morning, Eye-ran! Merry Christmas, Iran!


From the Caucasus, so-called cradle of European civilization http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5PoedKBq-Y&feature=related

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By weather, December 24, 2007 at 7:37 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

D.Chalmer’s:you can thank the Federal Reserve Bank and its draconian master’s for this destracting smoke screen.

Oil, Israel and nuclear power plants are far less important then maintaining the status quo in support of the US dollar.

North Korea, Iran, Venezeula want to put their assests elswhere. America is broke and in a head on collision w/deflation and a populace of debt slaves. They can’t have that.
This is what killed Lincoln, probably Kennedy and keeps us stuck.

No incumbents in 08

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By Douglas Chalmers, December 24, 2007 at 4:29 am Link to this comment

#122159 by Invade Iran Now! on 12/24: “Beck is a hard-core Perle-Cheney Republican, nearly peeing his pants over the expected excitement of seeing Iran bombed and in ruins….”

Think of a state about three times the size and population of California - and then go bomb it instead! Just do it on US soil and see how people like it or would react, uhh. After all, the USA IS a rogue nuclear weapons state…...

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By Invade Iran Now!, December 24, 2007 at 1:11 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’ve been expecting the var networks to have Rep. Kucinich on for interviews but he seems to be getting locked out. I did see Rep.Paul on the “Glenn Beck Program” today, Sunday. Beck actually gave Mr. Paul a fair sounding board but I was amused to hear Beck claim credentials as a “libertarian.” Mr. Beck is a hard-core Perle-Cheney Republican, nearly peeing his pants over the expected excitement of seeing Iran bombed and in ruins. I think Ron Paul kept his vomit down out of sheer willpower.


troublesum-  if you’re there, I apologize for saying mean things to you a few weeks back.

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By cyrena, December 24, 2007 at 12:02 am Link to this comment

#122079 by Kooch

Kooch,

You’re preaching to the choir on all of the stuff that RP says he wants to do. The Patriot Act, the habeas corpus, (are you referencing the Military Commissions Act when you speak to habeas corpus – you didn’t call it by that).

In short, what you’ve told me here about Ron Paul, I’ve heard before, at least a dozen times, and for now, that’s all it is. Talk.

Tell me how he feels about Guantanamo, and how he feels about the latest terrorist prevention act. And, we’re only going back 5 or so years on all of this.

Then, please (just for yourself, since I already know) explain why he wants to force prayer in public schools, (and prevent the Supreme Court from taking that up) and why he’s attempted to overturn or otherwise nullify Brown v. Board of Education, (which is a BIG DEAL – it was when it was decided, and it is VERY relevant today). Then, help me understand why he will do anything he can to nullify Roe v. Wade, which would drastically limit (or eliminate) a woman’s right to choose.

These are only a few of the many things that will affect or otherwise DISENFRANCHISE a very substantial number of Americans. It will OBVIOUSLY disenfranchise people of color. Right off the bat. It will equally disenfranchise women. Right off the bat.

Then, please tell me how RP is going to provide for the elderly population, dependent on social security, which is obtained from income taxes paid into the system by the CURRENT working population, since that’s how it’s been set-up. Tell me how we’re going to pay to educate our population, and please don’t give me the home school crap, because that’s disastrous. Even if I could hire Albert Einstein, I would not want my kids or any other, learning at home, without a clue to how anybody else in the world lives and interacts with each other.

How will he handle the health care crises, besides making it possible for Pfizer to mfg and distribute cocaine? (I’m all for legalizing it, but does big Pharma have to make the profit?)

Bottom line, I KNOW that Ron Paul is a racist, and so if you don’t, that’s fine with me. We’ll agree to disagree. But, don’t claim something that you don’t know. I say he is. And, there is enough proof from his own mouth, and in his congressional record, to convince me of that. (I also lived in that godforsaken place for years).

The last line of your post puts us right back to where YOU started with this whole thing, suggesting one should not choose based on the WRONG reasons. (and that should be true for ANY candidate). But, that’s exactly what you do here:

•  I like the outsiders.  And I think you don’t get how much of an outsider Ron Paul is in the Republican party today.

I don’t care if you like outsiders, and while it works out that I frequently like ‘outsiders’ myself, I don’t get what that has to do with anything. Is that your reason for choosing him. Is that not really sort of …STUPID? Gee, I need an office mgr for my medical practice, so let me run down to the local KKK chapter, and see if I can find an ‘outsider’.

So, if YOU ‘like’ him because he’s an outsider, knock yourself out. I don’t choose presidential candidates based on whether or not they’re ‘outsiders’ or ‘insiders’ in THEIR OWN PARTY, which DOESN’T happen to be MINE, and never has been. 

My opinion of RP is based on HIS record, and I sure didn’t make the record for him. He’s been a politician a long time. He could claim to be a democrat all of a sudden, and I STILL wouldn’t like him, because it wouldn’t change his record, or his ideology, which is a racist one. This is a problem Kooch. It’s a problem for a large portion of the US population.

Please let us NOT have this discussion again. I told you what I KNOW about the guy, and it’s NOT GOOD!! I can’t change what the record shows that he is; it’s HIS record - not MINE. But, if he floats your boat – GO for it!

Just don’t try to sell ME on a bad bill of goods. I’m not suicidal. I care about my fellow HB’s as well.

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By crack addicted skank, December 23, 2007 at 11:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

antispin quantized:
“This alien has clamped on to our collective head and thrust its reproductive organ down our collective throats.”

antispin,  I would date you but I’m afraid of those black helicopters over your car.

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By John Hanks, December 23, 2007 at 10:00 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Carstie:
Do you remember that Madagascar was the first choice for Hitler and the Zionists in the first place?  If the Israelis are our enemies then I would like to hold them close where I can see them.  I think that the Israelis would fit right in with everyone else in this country, especially if they are really just a bunch of crooks.  They’ve already snuggled up to the Republicans who are just a bunch of crooks as well.

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By Conservative Yankee, December 23, 2007 at 6:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

anti something

“Conservative Yankee writes, “The typical left-wing smear-jerkers” apparently in reference to my linking to wiki sites documenting some voting stats for the first three primaries’ states.”

Nope, you didn’t read what I wrote… You read what you wanted to react to.. Big difference.

Your smear was that you (appearently) agreed with Vilage Elder that the first three primary states were “hyper conservative”

They are not… hence the smear.

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By Carstie, December 23, 2007 at 5:59 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Yes folks, the existence of Israel, the Zionist state, in Palestine, is a major international pain in the pooper.  Granted, there are Jews who, because of a number of bad memories, feel they need a nation of their own.  And yes, the entire process of the creation of that state represented one of the most egregious of colonialist gambits.  But no, I would not like to see all Israelis migrate to the U.S.  We have enough problems already without the addition of a few million tribalists with aggressive attitudes.
  My solution?  Tasmania.  The island off Australia is lightly settled and those Europeans who did first settle the place committed acts of near total genocide against the indigenous population.  No, Tasmania should not be Given to those Jewish people who are not capable of getting along with others due to their racist Talmudist tenets.  It should be offered for sale by the people of Tasmania and the Australian govrnment.  At say a million bucks per diem such Tasmanians as would prefer not to convert to Judaism would have sufficient motivation to pull up stakes and locate elsewhere.
  There is no shortage of Jewish money, so that should be no problem.  The Tasman solution would solve fully half the problems in the Muddle East. With an island to themselves Zionist Jews could finally relax and not feel obliged to AIPAC America, Sarkozy sayanim France and otherwise disturb governmental equalibrium in various nations.  Even after all they have suffered from the Zionists, my feeling is that the Palestinian people would have no qualms about the right of non-Talmudist True Torah Jews to reside in Palestine as they have done since time immemorial.

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By John Hanks, December 23, 2007 at 5:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The most important rigging of elections is done by the crook media.  The media gets first and often the last cut in any election.  If you don’t pay tribute, you disappear like tinkerbell.  Ever hear of
Alaskan Senator Mike Gravel?(sp).  He is running as a “Democrat” and he wants to replace the Congress with direct voting.  Direct democracy to replace so-called “representative” government.  Preposterous!  Or at least the crook media will make it so.

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By antispin, December 23, 2007 at 3:16 pm Link to this comment

Conservative Yankee writes, “The typical left-wing smear-jerkers” apparently in reference to my linking to wiki sites documenting some voting stats for the first three primaries’ states. 

That’s clearly over the edge.  You ought to take a moment to reflect on what you might be saying about yourself when make such a callous, non-sensical allegation. 

I take it from your moniker that you regard yourself as some kind of conservative.  These labels are so out of date, why cast your lot with such an absurd, quasi-defined category?

Did you hear about the British lady who was concerned that the U.S. is claiming the right to kidnap citizens off the streets of London.  “I wouldn’t want to be snatched by a Yank,” she said.

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By troublesum, December 23, 2007 at 2:46 pm Link to this comment

A rethinking of policy towards Isreal is not going to happen anytime soon in Washington.  What could happen in the meantime is for Americans to have more compassion for both sides in the conflict.  Someone here suggested that all Isralis immigrate to the US.  I endorse that idea completely.  I have often thought that we should have given them the state of Florida after WW2. Floridians could have been moved to California which was sparsely populated at that time.

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By Conservative Yankee, December 23, 2007 at 2:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

122081 by antispin on 12/23 at 12:47 pm

“Let’s see.  If you believe the polling machines (a gigantic IF) then Iowa voted for Gore in 2000 while NH and SC voted for Bush.  NH being the only New England state to do so”

122028 by VillageElder on 12/23 at 7:20 am Said:

“All three of these states are hyper conservative.”

I responded that is not so.

You then posted stats about what the states WERE in the year 2000.

The typical left-wing smear-jerkers.

New Hampshire (much to my dismay) has a Democratic Governor. They have a State House and Senate Democratic majority, and in the last election for President voted for Kerry. ALSO if you are talking history, the 2000 election gave Bush the nod by fewer than 2000 votes 2600 votes went to Ralph Nader.

Iowa while somewhat more conservative than New Hampshire has one Democratic Senator, one Republican Senator, and the Republican (Charles Grassley) is not a “hyper Conservative” Iowa also has no death penalty and an EXTREMELY small population of prison inmates.  Hardly sounds like a right-wing gulag to me.

States which might be labeled “hyper conservative” are Idaho (hasn’t voted Democratic since LBJ)
Wyoming (Cheney’s home State and the most solidly Republican State in the Nation)
Mississippi, Utah, Alabama, and Oklahoma round out the states which MIGHT be labeled “most conservative.”

voting machines(which liberals never believe UNLESS they’re the ones in Chicago which gave the 1960 race to Kennedy)are not the best or finest indicator of what folks are thinking year round.

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By troublesum, December 23, 2007 at 2:23 pm Link to this comment

The leadership of Isreal still consists of people who remember the holocaust.  That is the root of the paranoia.  There may be some hope of a settlement when a new generation assumes power.
But of course the jihadists will never be satisfied with anything.

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By antispin, December 23, 2007 at 1:47 pm Link to this comment

#122047 by Conservative Yankee

Let’s see.  If you believe the polling machines (a gigantic IF) then Iowa voted for Gore in 2000 while NH and SC voted for Bush.  NH being the only New England state to do so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ElectoralCollege2000-Large-BushRed-GoreBlue.png

Apparently it took Iowa four years of unimitigated disaster to find Bush appealing, so they swapped places with NH in 04. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2004_US_elections_map_electoral_votes.png

There are idiots out walking around in all these states, but SC may take the cake: http://youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww

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By Kooch, December 23, 2007 at 1:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Cyrena—
So, yea…..now that you put it that way, I’ll remember to use that when I talk to Neoconned Republicans.  “Your party’s going down the tubes if it doesn’t get back to it’s basic principles like Ron Paul wants.  Do you want your party to LOSE for the next 20 years”?

Hah! 

My greatest fear is the Republicans get back in power with the neocons still in charge.  And it won’t be twenty years from now.  It’s just one terrorist attack away. 

But with this part I think you are just wrong:

“But the fact of it is that Ron Paul doesn’t have ALL Americans in his ‘vision’ of the American people. Nor does he see any of the non-white population included in that “liberty and justice for ALL’ part of the pledge. In that respect, he is VERY wedded to the original Constitution”.


I think you have mistaken the surface for the motivation.  Ron Paul has repeatedly stated his position that the Federal Government has a role in enforcing the constitution and the bill of rights.  That is always considered in relationship with individual rights.  Ron Paul is in no way a racist.  He believes in the goodness of his fellow man too much.  Yep—I totally agree.

But that is where the balance of power comes into play and is supposed to restrain the executive branch.  RP is ready to respect that.  What we have right now is upside down—Its fallen off the other side of that cliff.  The executive branch does whatever the hell it wants, from lying us into war, suspending habeas corpus, torturing and illegal dention, etc…..Not to mention they spy on us, won’t let me have a business with a smoking section, tell me what drugs I can or cannot take, buy media time and journalists to influence what we think,  etc.. etc. ad nauseum.  They want to control us from the top down.

It’s important to note that *this* is one of Ron Paul’s biggest things—He wants to repeal the Patriot Acts, bring back habeas corpus, and give up the over-reaching powers taken by the executive branch.  This is a big deal!

I like the outsiders.  And I think you don’t get how much of an outsider Ron Paul is in the Republican party today.

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By John Hanks, December 23, 2007 at 1:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Since we have been secretly afflicted with the Neocons (half Jewish - half felon) and AIPAC, I’ve subscribed to some Israel news sites.  Guess what, they are just as subject to protection rackets as we are.  So much for the popular belief that Jews have any more smarts than anyone else.

I think Israel was one of the last major post World War II colonial mistakes.  And so was Iraq.  The Jewish population of Israel should migrate here.

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By Conservative Yankee, December 23, 2007 at 10:39 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

122028 by VillageElder on 12/23 at 7:20 am

“All three of these states are hyper conservative”

No, they are not. 

Do some research before you plug in your prejudices.

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By weather, December 23, 2007 at 10:24 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Israel is a self-inflicted wound.

No friends, just resentments, acrimony, distrust and hate - and just think they have absolutely No one to blame but themselves.
But blame, complain, attack, distract, distort, deflect and deny they will.

Exhausting isn’t?

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By troublesum, December 23, 2007 at 8:59 am Link to this comment

#122012   I think Nader is the best non-candidate we have.  I don’t remember writing anything about Isreal here but I believe that nothing is going to be accomplished for Palestine as long as there is such hatred for Isreal.  The conflict between the UK and Northern Ireland could only be solved when both sides sat down as equals at the negotiating table.  UK had carried out some heinous crimes in Northern Ireland, but I don’t remember any vilification of the UK here in the US.  Throughout their long history as an empire, the British have done some unspeakable things to native populations, yet none of this has ever been held against them in the US.  People who are always raving about Isreal probably have a very positive view of the UK in spite of its history.  People here are so emotional about Isreal which is very counter productive in achieving a solution to the conflict.
I recently saw on video Shimon Peres being interviewed concerning the conflict and he was really quite paranoid about Isreal’s enemies being out to destroy it.  And this is the left in Isreal talking.  I believe that hatred for Isreal is only going to feed that paranoia and make a solution impossible.  I used to think that an imposed solution was the only way, but now Isreal has nuclear weapons so that is out of the question.  There are some people here who think that Isreal controls the world.  This is really quite crazy.

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By VillageElder, December 23, 2007 at 8:20 am Link to this comment

I have enjoyed this discussion.  Cyrena has discussed the fervor with which some want to reshape the repugs.  Kooch alluded to the dems not acting like democrats.  It has be said that the DLC is repugs-lite.

What occurred to me as the first primaries are upon is:  These states:  Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina do not represent this country.  There are over 300 million (300,000,000+) of us in these United States.  If there are record turn outs approximately 300,000 people will massively impact the decisions concerning either “partys’” candidate.  All three of these states are hyper conservative.

The Iowa and South Carolina issues revolve around religion hence an anti-abortion and anti-evolution stance is de rigeur for the repugs.  Social Conservatives wish to turn the clock back in very unpleasant ways.  New Hampshire is a no tax state.  “Government got plenty of money ....”

The fact is that on the issues facing our country, if left to the majority, would have a progressive answer. This will be little noted nor acted upon during these first frenzies.  By having these states as the early “bell weather” samples it insures the status quo will prevail.

That we have had Dennis Kucinch, Dodd, Biden, Gravel and Paul in the mix moved the debated further than it would have been without.  John Edwards in the “top tier” has moved health care and other populist issues forward in the conversation.

It appears that the contest will be waged by different teams of the same club.  We really need to have democracy.

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By jbart, December 23, 2007 at 7:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#121692 by Kooch on 12/21 at 8:10 am
#121420 by Carstie on 12/19 at 9:23 pm
#121600 by Joe on 12/20 at 7:11 pm
I’ve “picked” these blogs to respond to in ordr to “voice” my opinion(s) re:,in a specific way, and the broader issue(s) as well. I think, unlike most of the posters here,that I’m, at least, somewhat, different.I last voted in 2004. I was required, on election day, to be “on the road”, as business tends to dictate our lives. I voted through the traditional “paper/absentee ballot” in my town.
It was the FIRST time I “voted” for anything since 1972. Once this idiotic country thought enough of itself to, almost unanimously, re-elect “Tricky Dick” I gave up on the system. I saw/felt/understood the “danger” of the neocons (a.k.a. DUBYA)which, in turn, caused me to return to making my voice/vote heard. Judging from what has transpired since, I fear that it’s too late to make a difference through the voting process. What can a person who, really cares for his country (and for his child) do about bringing about the changes that are necessary to restore America to being the America I care about? Can any candidate that I can support do anything about our country sinking into the “worm hole” of the New World Order?  The ONLY one I see/hear of the potentials is Kucinich. I think the rest of them have ALL sold their souls to the “Capalistic Pigs”. Once again, this blog is just my 2 cents.

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By cyrena, December 23, 2007 at 1:44 am Link to this comment

#121965 by Kooch

Thanks Kooch,

I really DO understand, and appreciate your response. I’m with ya. It’s fair enough to expect them to at least behave in character, (or as you mentioned the first time, in principle).

However, I should clarify that what YOUR post basically provided for me, (the parts that I referenced) was a crystallization of some of the OTHER posters, that have recently gone so far off the deep end. I think I referenced one, if not by name, from a post several weeks ago, (on Ron Paul). The guy had seemed reasonable enough for months in his posts, until I came to pointing out some of these issues with Ron Paul, at which point, he went berserk, beginning with the plaintive cry of, WHAT’S THE ALTERNATIVE!! (Because, as I’m sure you’ll agree, there IS no alternative to the current mob currently running on the GOP ticket, aside from those who are considering Ron Paul). And, I don’t see him as an alternative. Anyway, the guy just kept getting nastier and nastier.

So, THAT’S when it sort of ‘dawned’ on me, that at least for this guy, (and several others since), there is simply NO considering anyone other than a repug. And of COURSE they’re desperately frantic over what the neoconners are doing, and have been doing, because…they probably ALL VOTED for them, (both times) and now they just feel so incredibly stupid and betrayed, which makes them all the more frantic, and all the nastier. That is especially the case because I have brought out things about Ron Paul (and from day one really) that make a comparison to how I felt back in 2000, when everybody was convinced of GW’s ‘sincerity’. (he was sincere all right, cheney even more so)

So, it was really to those types that I was speaking, (not you per se though you did provide the framework for the types I referenced). I’m sure the posters who wear the shoes were able to see themselves.

Now I speak from both living this experience, (including 2 decades in TX) and from extensive study as well. So, this isn’t just me sprouting my own political opinion without substance. Let’s just say I have an ‘inside view’, including the skeletons many thought were buried. That’s why I’m really NOT being overly harsh on Ron Paul. If it comes across that way, it’s because it is what it is. I WILL concede that in his own mind, and within his own ideology, RP may very well think of himself as a ‘good man’ as you’ve called him, and obviously even a ‘man of the people’. Just not ALL of the people.

HOWEVER, RP is wedded to the old patriarchal ideology, and accompanying racism, that he may accept it as standard, and see nothing wrong with it. I mean, we can’t ignore the historical context upon which this nation was founded. And, we haven’t gotten over it yet, regardless of any laws that may have since come to be on the books. Morality can’t be legislated, nor can any person be FORCED to accept the equality of another human being. And surely, they will never GIVE UP those inherent advantages.

So of course he can and will go through the motions to avoid just coming right out with it. (although he actually HAS, in decades past,  but it’s a political faux pas now.) Surely he’s smart enough not to make a Strom Thurmund type mistake.  Still, like any other politician, he plays to his base ideology. And, his base is suffering a-plenty from the actions of the neocons, which has deprived them of their privileged class status. When that happens, you see the issues that RP is addressing: The so called illegal immigrants, The so-called ‘quota’s’ that allow more of the minority to enter the mainstream, and on and on. Consequently, the minority population is NOT included in his ‘goodness’ or his visions. I think his record speaks to that, and you don’t even have to consider the Libertarian stuff, because that really IS a new

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By cyrena, December 23, 2007 at 1:13 am Link to this comment

#121965 by Kooch

Thanks Kooch,

I really DO understand, and appreciate your response. I’m with ya. It’s fair enough to expect them to at least behave in character, (or as you mentioned the first time, in principle).

However, I should clarify that what YOUR post basically provided for me, (the parts that I referenced) was a crystallization of some of the OTHER posters, that have recently gone so far off the deep end. I think I referenced one, if not by name, from a post several weeks ago, (on Ron Paul). The guy had seemed reasonable enough for months in his posts, until I came to pointing out some of these issues with Ron Paul, at which point, he went totally off the deep end, beginning with the plaintive cry of, WHAT’S THE ALTERNATIVE!! (Because, as I’m sure you’ll agree, there IS no alternative to the current mob currently running on the GOP ticket, aside from those who are considering Ron Paul).

So, THAT’S when it sort of ‘dawned’ on me, that at least for this guy, (and several others since), there is simply NO considering anyone other than a repug. And of COURSE they’re desperately frantic over what the neoconners are doing, and have been doing, because…they probably ALL voted for them, (both times) and now they just feel so incredibly stupid and betrayed, which makes them all the more frantic, and all the nastier. That is especially the case because I have brought out things about Ron Paul (and from day one really) that make a comparison to how I felt back in 2000, when everybody (including some of my own extended family) were talking about how ‘sincere’ they thought GW was. Now, this had been stated in response to my calling that duo, (even before their campaign and judicial selection) the ‘dangerous duo’. I specifically elaborated to say that The Shrub was dangerous because he was so STUPID, and Dickie Boy Cheney was equally dangerous because he was NOT! (stupid). Evil yes, but not stupid.

So, it was really to those types that I was speaking, (not you, since I’ve not read or heard from you before). But, you did provide the framework, for the type that will simply not stray from the party. And, in this case, it comes with the inherent racism that this particular poster displayed, as a result of my comments on RP.

Now I speak from both living this experience, (including 2 decades in TX) and from studying it extensively as well. So, this isn’t just me sprouting my own political opinion without substance. And, that’s why I’m really NOT being overly harsh on Ron Paul. If it comes across that way, it’s because it is what it is. Now I WILL concede that in his own mind, and within his own ideology, RP may very well think of himself as a ‘good man’ as you’ve called him, and obviously even a ‘man of the people’.

HOWEVER, RP is so wedded to the old patriarchal ideology, and accompanying racism, that he may accept it as standard, and see nothing wrong with it. I mean, we can’t ignore the historical context upon which this nation was founded. And, we haven’t gotten over it yet. True, the laws finally came around, so at least there’s something “on the books” that recognizes racial segregation as illegal and immoral, but morality can’t be legislated, nor can any person be FORCED to accept the equality of another human being. And surely, they will never GIVE UP those inherent advantages.

So of course he can and will go through the motions to avoid just coming right out with it. (He’s smarter and more polished than a Strom Thurmund). But the fact of it is that Ron Paul doesn’t have ALL Americans in his ‘vision’ of the American people. Nor does he see any of the non-white population included in that “liberty and justice for ALL’ part of the pledge. In that respect, he is VERY wedded to the original Constitution.

And, I would have to insist that a close look at his record, clearly shows that. He may not be advocating the re-enslavement of the minority population, but he’s not a damn bit about sharing any survival resources.

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By John Hanks, December 22, 2007 at 9:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I think we get to involved in these elections.  They are a distraction more than anything else, and they just lead to more evil. making us ineffective.  The crooks set the stage and one of the crooks is favored by a rotten media to win.  We should vote of course, but with a cold black hatred for the farce party system that makes real democracy impossible.  We have a lot of power actually.  By arguing and contesting the dominant voodoo, it is possible for more and more people to see through it all.

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By Kooch, December 22, 2007 at 8:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

cyrena—Thanks for the response, especially the first one.  I am aware of the good and bad that libertarian philosophy poses.  I am also aware of the problems progressive liberalism might bring.  I don’t personally stand with either.  And that’s where your miscalculation is—

I’m no *Republican*. —No way!  I’ve voted Dem more than Republican—by far.  But I’ve never been a member of any party.  What I want out of the stupid two-party system we’re presently stuck with is for them to act like conservatives and liberals instead of insiders and anything-to-get-elected empty suits.  I want Democrats who could never dream of NAFTA.  I want them to do more than pay lipservice to the middle and lower classes while taking bribes from union-busting companies.  I want Republicans that would never even dream of The Patriot Act; Republicans that would never dream of spending the nation into oblivion even worse than the Dems (but don’t forget Bill raided the SS trust funds).  And I want both parties to be led by *humans* who would never dream of lying the people into a bogus “pre-emptive” war. 

Things are out of hand.  Most Democrats don’t act like Democrats.  Most Republicans don’t act like Republicans.  We have more intelligent discussions about issues online than these robots and manequinns in office even attempt anymore. 

That is why I’ve donated to both Paul and Kucinich.  I just want some real human beings representing real viewpoints! 

Your view of Paul is just overly harsh, frankly.  He is a good, honest man who has been saying essentially the same things his whole career.  And no President (especially Kucinich or Paul—who both have a ....bit of respect for Congress), can do whatever the hell they want.  They have to get Congress to do things first in most cases (except for war, apparently—but both DK and RP would like to change that back).  That is why DK would never get Reparations.  And that is why RP would not be as dangerous as you think. 


And let’s see….I’ve owned a couple Buicks, a couple Hondas, a Toyota, a Pontiac, and a few more.  I usually buy the cheapest car that gets the job done.  Never cared where they were made.

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By Siamdave, December 22, 2007 at 8:45 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Gore speaks of getting out of the box - coincidentally enough, a recent book talks about this in some more detail - They’re Building a Box - and You’re In It - http://www.rudemacedon.ca/dlp/box/box-intro.html

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By antispin, December 22, 2007 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

This marionette dance of democratic pretense is so painful…perhaps we need to appeal to the plant world for help.  A complex system of alkaloids and may possibly interact with our own nerve endings to produce some ameliorative effect.  Politics is the opium of the narco-traffikers in the CIA. This alien has clamped on to our collective head and thrust its reproductive organ down our collective throats.

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By cyrena, December 22, 2007 at 6:46 pm Link to this comment

1o2 reply#121921 by VillageElder

VillageElder,

Thanks for your excellent submission. I’d like to quote you from time to time. It also ties up what I’ve finally realized in its full spectrum, just from past readings from the broad range across this forum, (including the tired arguments) and the more literate that can make sense of it. John Dean’s “Conservatives Without A Conscience” was very helpful, when I read it a couple of years ago.

What I picked up earlier, (or, maybe it all fell very much into place again) was from the piece posted by Kooch @#121692

This jumps out at me, because while it is stuck in the midst of a bunch of BS, I think it tells the story:

•  Supporting Ron Paul is about shaking up the current system. Its about attacking and attempting to reshape the Republican party while it is weak. The neocons are on the ropes.

That’s what it comes down to. It’s about SAVING the REPUGLITHAN PARTY, from the band that has so dissolved it. It first occurred to me some weeks ago, when a regular poster responded on another thread, to these very obvious issues with Ron Paul. The response had what I can only describe as a kind of desperate or plaintive note to it. It was…”But what are the ALTERNATIVES?”

Because, in his mind, there was no considering a NON-repuglithan. And so, among the choices available from THAT party, he just didn’t see any other hope. It never occurred to him, (and wouldn’t) to look at a different batch or selection. It HAS to be a repug and so…what do we do?

The same guy goes to purchase a new car. He’s always and ONLY driven a Ford. Anything other than a Ford, cannot be considered. So, while Ford may have produced nothing but really horrific cars over the past decade, becoming progressively worse year after year, he’ll still confine himself to looking for what appears to be the least worst of the lot.

NEVER, EVER, could he look at or consider a DIFFERENT make. (forced to choose a different model maybe, but NEVER a different MAKE). So, it HAS to be a repug, because that’s just what and who he is. The basic principles by which the repugs have stood for the past half century at least, is all that they can support, and that is the ‘individualism’, which really means, ME and MINE, and nobody else

They call it, “individualism’ and independence, (as you mentioned with Abraham Lincoln because he was indeed obsessive about that independence). Ironically enough, they don’t mean the same sort of ‘independence’ that we think of as independence, (or at least some of us) which is independence of thought and ideology, or new ways of accomplishing things in/on an undated terrain or varied conditions. Nor do they have a clue to how very DEPENDANT they actually are, on the very ones they are so anxious to exclude. (grow their own food, educate their own children, make their own clothes, ignore highways/byways/commercial transportation?)

But, these ‘types’ will not ever consider looking at a Chrysler product, even though they know that the Fords are overall rotted out. Rather, they’ll pick the best make of the rotten lot, and they’ll put some lipstick on it, or maybe a few new wheels, (oblong instead of round) and call it something else, (Libertarian) and hope for the best, without ever considering the parts that don’t have any answers.

TBC

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By cyrena, December 22, 2007 at 6:45 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2 reply to 121921

Kooch goes on, (@121692) which reaffirms… that it’s all about ‘the party’.

•  Of course, no one can turn the Republican party into a lefty progressive party. And while the party may be currently weak, you can’t kill it. They will be in power again. Supporting Ron Paul is about reforming that party before they can regroup and whitewash their neo-con crimes again.  Its about forcing them back to their principles. The GOP is supposed to be about minimizing government and maximizing personal freedom. –Good principles if ya ask me, but ones they abandoned long ago.

So, there we have it again. It’s about the GOP, and allegedly minimizing government, and maximizing personal freedom. But, neither he nor any genuine repug, actually MEANS, personal freedom for ALL, nor do they want to be done with government entirely. They DO want government to protect their INDIVDUAL interests, when it means protecting their privileged status, and privileged access to the common resources. He admits the mentality here, in saying that the GOP can never be a ‘lefty’ (I really resent the term) or a PROGRESSIVE party. And, who could be more REgressive, than Ron Paul?

No, they will never be a progressive party, because it means becoming inclusive, and it means adjustment to the terrain of the 21st Century. They will reject that at all costs, even it if means shooting themselves in the foot, with a Ron Paul.

Instead, they’ll just hope, (or pray) that they fall into or remain in a ‘privileged’ state or demographic area, during their own INTERNAL ‘shake-up’. Once the dust settles (they figure) and Ron Paul has rid them of the neo-cons who have NOT protected their privileged status, and allowed them to fall to the same level as the ‘others’ – the ‘outcasts’, the ‘lefties’ or the ‘unequals’, then all will be well. And, like he said, they’ll be back in POWER again. (at least that’s the hope/prayer)

That’s what it’s all about.

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By it doesn't take a village, December 22, 2007 at 6:14 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

VillageElder,  Don’t mean to nag but the pivotal point I meant to make in my previous post was that you equate libertarians with Reagan-Bush. Here is what Reagan and B2 have offered up: massive debt, massive trade deficits, helping push our schoolkids to be the dumbest in the known fucking multiverse, perverting our military by way of demolishing weak, helpless populations in Central America and Middle East, ruining the US reputation worldwide, altering the integrity of both the Federal gov and judiciary (Clinton didn’t help any, either, by permitting the slaughter at Waco), taking a vigorous, professional Army and replacing it with tired, misused souls who will likely be denied their benefits, callous and stupid failure to encourage a safer world by way of going non-nuclear…I can go on till I run out of ink but you see what I’m saying…the monstrous embarrassments of big-spending Reagan and Bush2 are the polar opposite of that wanted for humanity by Ron Paul.

Sorry about the mental drool. Like Curly said to Moe, “I keep thinkin’...but nothin’s happening.”

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By it doesn't take a village, December 22, 2007 at 5:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

VillageElder wrote:
“Libertarian rhetoric aims at reducing the size of the central government, extol “states rights” and, suggest a image of life as espoused by Ayn Rand.  The invisible hand described by Adam Smith will solve all problems if we just let the market work its magic.”

“Libertarian rhetoric aims at reducing the size of the central government, extol “states rights” and, suggest a image of life as espoused by Ayn Rand.  The invisible hand described by Adam Smith will solve all problems if we just let the market work its magic.”

VillageElder,  Some of your points, though strained, are now approaching rationality. The only synapses still misfiring are the ones dealing with libertarian thought. You really, truly do not get it. I can’t emphasize this enough. Today’s failure of Federal rule is so profound that most usual election issues fade to meaninglessness. What’s left of the planet is about to be finished off due to rising ocean levels, dumb invasions and, in effect, a hatred of the poor—i.e. most of the world. These problems, which I assure you are more important than you or me, can be dealt with effectively but through different approaches. Where Al Gore or John Edwards or Congressman Kucinich might take a regulatory, int’l treaty and aggressive-spending approach to jumpstarting a fix, a libertarian Admin headed by Dr.Paul, holding similar priorities, would likely employ simpler, more-direct means. Example: a direct order from the President that all new vehicles purchased for Federal Agencies will meet a 35-45 miles-per gallon standard within one year (the hardware’s already there), corporations creating jobs and/or reducing energy consumption will be given strong preference when Federal contracts are negotiated. My point being that Ron Paul will use the direct incentive rather than longwinded regulation. The carrot-stick approach is not only highly effective (and cheap) but is entirely consistent with libertarian principles. Note that I’m not citing Congressman Paul’s policy specifics in any way. I’m trying to convey the senses of priority and problem-solving which are consistent with both his values and his insistence on seeing results.

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By VillageElder, December 22, 2007 at 2:41 pm Link to this comment

I see the same tired arguments about central government and implying interference with individual’s lives and choices.  This is the cant and verse of “conservative” dogma.  Interestingly enough the greatest interference has come about under the Regan Bush continuum.

Under the guise of restoring morality restrictive legislation has been pushed for and passed which restricts the right of privacy in appeasement of the anti-abortion cartel.  This of course had been agitated for by the religious right to whom Regan and Bush 1 & 2 owed their elections.  This imposed a minority position restricting the rights desired by the majority of the public.  Repuglicans are fascinated, in deed obsessive, about the bedroom behavior of others.

Libertarian rhetoric aims at reducing the size of the central government, extol “states rights” and, suggest a image of life as espoused by Ayn Rand.  The invisible hand described by Adam Smith will solve all problems if we just let the market work its magic.

Central government serves many purposes in keeping our country coherent and functional.  Uniform standard for education come to mind.  Repugs are always complaining about the federal involvement in education unless it is their involvement.  By having uniform standards for such things as roads, education, transportation and other items of modern life, e.g. electrification we create a society that in some ways minimizes the disadvantages imposed by geography.

Thomas Jefferson envisioned an America based on small agricultural operations owned and operated by a family.  He thought we should eschew the trappings of Europe such as large cities.  Americans should be independent and self sufficient.  A pastoral fantasy that was fading in the 18th century.  Today such a life style would be virtually impossible.  The majority of Americans live on the coasts and usually within two miles of an interstate.  Growing one’s veggies and chickens is a bit out the the question.

Under the guise of returning to a simpler life attacks are made on legislation supported by the majority.  Attempts to restrict or repeal Brown vs Board of Education are a continual theme under the guise of “state’s rights” or “local control.”  Constant whining about “quota systems” in an attempt to repeal the Equal Opportunity Act.  I would suggest you read it before writing about it.

The libertarian desire would take us to the future discussed by Jefferson.  The neocons want power and will do anything to get it, hold it and impose it.

Rue Paul does not distance himself from the neocon agenda sufficiently.  Looking at his stands and legislative record at best he might be neocon-lite. 

We are an interdependent society.  We have a social contract between ourselves and with our government.  This contract has grown through legislation, common practice, case law and treaty.  Attempts to turn the clock back to Dickens’ England economically and socially are delusional at best.

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By bob boldt, December 22, 2007 at 1:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Would factchecker please show me where Mr, Vidal made any reference to Fox.ea

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By John Hanks, December 22, 2007 at 10:52 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

If you belong to the NRA you have registered your name with the government.  They have the connection they need should they ever want your guns.  They know however that guns are a leading source of false hope.  They would rather you not know about S.1959.

If an American is forced to speak in whispers so that no one can hear him…?  If an American is forced to hear only the candidates that the crook media chooses…?

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By troublesum, December 22, 2007 at 9:02 am Link to this comment

Nader would be the best second party candidate.  It does seem unfair that the other party gets to run two candidates under different banners.  Too many people will not take Kucinich seriously because of the clown act he took on the road the last time around.  The MSM may have distorted things but he did not even take himself seriously last time and now he was other people to?  It’s too late.  There are some good takes on Nader at youtube.

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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, December 22, 2007 at 8:21 am Link to this comment

I hope Dennis Kucinich will soon get over this family loss and get back to campaigning. We all need him to engage fully in the Democrats debates and show the American people the differences in his platform versus the other candidates.

Ron Paul on Kucinich:

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/28289

Kucinich has made mention of being a running mate with Ron Paul.

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/119606963456620.xml&coll=2

And of course there are the concerned spin masters who would “dislike” this arrangement.

http://www.forward.com/blogs/campaign-confidential/njdc-not-thrilled-with-idea-of-kucinich-paul-ticke/

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By Conservative Yankee, December 22, 2007 at 7:21 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“So, my question is, why should it be such a major issue to require one to register their weapons, and do a simple background check on them, IN THE 21st CENTURY? I mean, that’s how it was in my state, way back when. (and still is, as far as I know). The privacy advocates might holler and scream, (and I do the same as a privacy advocate). But, I’m hollering and screaming about the fact that they ALREADY know everything there is to know about me, and they still keep spying. So, what’s the big deal if they check it out when I go to purchase a weapon?

I do wonder about folks sometimes. “


While you sound like a perfectly reasonable person, you have traveled further down the road to “no privacy, no rights” then I am willing to travel.

Currently, I have no driver’s license, because the State wants me to tender my social security number to obtain said license.

Now, I’m not a child, I know the government HAS access to my social security number, and if they want it, all they have to do is look at my last-year’s tax return, BUT I am unwilling to “give them my permission” to put this number on my license.

I am also unwilling to tell the government how many guns I have, where I keep them, and additionally give them permission to view documents (if any exist)which are by law confidential (Doctor patient confidentiality) in order to excersise my RIGHT to own a weapon.

The force of a discharged weapon is not the ultimate deterrent it once was, BUT folks having to guess if they are going up against a Glock or a 22 makes them decide if they can send in the local sherriff, or if (as you say) they need Blackwater.

I say, let ‘em guess.

Of course all my weapons were purchased under the old laws where one didn’t even need to identify one’s self.

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By cyrena, December 22, 2007 at 6:18 am Link to this comment

#121670 by Conservative Yankee

RE 121587 by Paracelsus

•  “I cannot vote for Kucinich precisely because he is anti Second Amendment. I do not want to be without a gun in the fake GWOT, police state. Kucinich should know this instinctively: you do not disarm the citizennry in the face of a dictatorial police state.”

Conservative Yankee,
Your response to the above was entirely appropriate, (ie, Dennis Kucinich is hardly planning to take away anybody’s guns, nor is he “anti-second amendment’). And, it’s not going to interfere with anybody’s legitimate rights.

But, put it in context to the poster, and even the post. He’s worried about ‘unarming the citizenry’ in the face of the phony GWOT, and the approaching police state. Well, that’s a good observation. The police state IS approaching, if not already here.
In reality, what are his one or two guns, (or however many he can shoot at one time) gonna do for him when blackwater descends on his ass, to drag him off to one of those detention centers? I mean REALLY!!! And he lives in Georgia? Oh yeah, they’ll be at his house first.

So, in reality, the guy probably can’t even vote. He just mostly talks a bunch of smack.
Meantime, I KNOW there’s no danger of DK messing with the 2nd amendment. I DO think he might have some thoughts on gun control though, and I don’t have a problem with that. I don’t have a problem with him having a permit to carry a concealed weapon, and I’m GLAD for the regulation that REQUIRES a permit to carry a concealed weapon.
Because, in the 21st Century, I have troubles with the fact that any psychotic being can get their hands on a gun and take out whomever they please.

Yep, I find that troubling.

But then, I’m a great fan of adjusting to the terrain and changing conditions, of…WHATEVER. So, if we ‘adjust’ the sails to the wind and other conditions, to navigate the vessel through the water, then I think we can and should ‘adjust’ the legislation to navigate through the times in the 21st Century.

So, my question is, why should it be such a major issue to require one to register their weapons, and do a simple background check on them, IN THE 21st CENTURY? I mean, that’s how it was in my state, way back when. (and still is, as far as I know). The privacy advocates might holler and scream, (and I do the same as a privacy advocate). But, I’m hollering and screaming about the fact that they ALREADY know everything there is to know about me, and they still keep spying. So, what’s the big deal if they check it out when I go to purchase a weapon?

I do wonder about folks sometimes.

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By cyrena, December 22, 2007 at 4:32 am Link to this comment

Part 1#121692 by Kooch

Kooch,
I very much appreciated your essay, and PARTICULARLY on ‘not liking’ a candidate for the wrong reasons. The SAME should be considered for supporting any particular candidate for the WRONG reasons. So, get your point. I wish more folks did the same sort of critical (and less emotional) thinking. They don’t.

Unfortunately though, I do see Ron Paul as a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He may indeed by an idealist, (as am I – with a huge dose of realism attached) so I suppose it’s just a matter of which ‘ideals’ we’re talking about, eh?

On this:

•  And if you don’t understand the difference between libertarian and neo-con philosophies you need to do more research.

I HAVE done the research, and I DO recognize the difference. So, let us not ‘assume’ what we aren’t sure of. There IS a real difference, and RP doesn’t represent it, On its face, the Libertarian ideology is not the worst that we might consider. So, it’s really NOT the Libertarian view that I have a problem with. It’s Ron Paul’s stated and UNSTATED interpretation of it.

In short, it’s about far more than centralized v non-centralized government. That alone, is not the real issue. It’s a diversion from the real issues. It IS (from what you’ve indicated yourself) far more about reforming and attempting to regain some leverage for the REPUBLICAN Party. IOW, it’s very much about the partisan politics. It’s about saving the REPUBLICAN party from the disaster that the neoconners have done to it.

So, for those people who are in fact so wedded to the repug party, and it’s fundamental ideals, (which stand on privatization and individual accomplishments/wealth –by any means necessary-) then he certainly represents himself, (especially within the current group) as the only available rescue tool. Realistically, I see this very clearly.

So no, my own very strong skepticism lies more with what Ron Paul clearly AVOIDS saying or intimating at this point, than it does with what he presents as a radical departure or ‘shake up’ of the repuglican party. Therein lays the key. And in that respect, he is not much different than many of the repugs that have come before him. (or at least before the neoconners). In reality, HE is not the radical. THEY have been the radicals. He is far more typical of the standard repug conservative than he is of a Libertanian vision, at least a 21st Century Libertarian vision. (he’s only ‘radical’ in his interpretation of the Constitution, minus the passage of over 200 years)

In reality, RP has NO problems with the grossly unequal distribution of wealth and resources. He’s very much into ‘individualism’ and ‘privatization’ which is why he speaks out against government subsidies for ANYTHING or ANYBODY (corporate or otherwise) He’s against regulation of any sort. In theory, that sounds just great. Everybody can just do whatever the hell they wanna do, regardless of who might be permanently disadvantaged as a result.

What that breaks down to, in reality, is a sort of Social Darwinism. Survival of whomever can amass the most wealth, (again, by whatever means necessary) and maintain it within their own individual families, cults, tribes, etc, etc. It’s absolutely NO different than how this country began. Money and power remained in certain hands, and was transferred accordingly. It was a closed society, with little opportunity for movement across classes. Eventually, that began to adjust itself, though certainly not without long term pain, and things began to be less drastic in their differences of economic access and other resources. At least more people had access.

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By cyrena, December 22, 2007 at 4:31 am Link to this comment

Part 2 reply to #121692 Kooch

The DIFFERENCE now, (which is why RP has gained his support) is that because of the neoconners of the past decade or better, that proletariat class, (the middle class) has lost it’s ‘status’, and has merged more and more into the lower/lowest class, at least economically speaking. They don’t have the same access to decent PUBLIC resources as have been available in years past, because those PUBLIC resources are no longer ‘decent’. (because the neoconners haven’t been funding them either, just like RP doesn’t want to do). It could only become a problem when the middle (and mostly white) class began to feel the pain.

Why do you think there’s all of a sudden this major outrage over ‘illegal immigrants” ONLY from the south? Do you think they just materialized over the past few years? Of course not. The corps, big business, and the aristocracy, (RP included) have been taking advantage of them for DECADES. All of a sudden, THEY become the reason for everybody’s economic woes. And so, RP hooks ‘em with that.

That’s where RP comes to the imaginary rescue. If the neoconners hadn’t spent trillions of our dollars on war, (specially the military industrial complex) and hadn’t outsourced our economy to put us into an unprecedented debt, than there would be no notice by those who used to be ‘comfortable’ in their repuglican middle-classness.
Here again, it should be noted that NOBODY is the least bit happy about this debt, regardless of their party or ideology, and so that too, has gained tremendous support for RP, by his attention to that.

Again, this is all what’s on the ‘face’ of things. In reality, when he talks the whole freedom and liberty thing, he does NOT mean that for ALL Americans. That too, is ‘code’ for that class of people that he is addressing. And, he’s as much for ‘privatization’ as the neoconners are, he’s just not talking about CORPORATE fascism. Let’s face it..one can only be as ‘liberated’ as one can ‘afford’ to be. If ya have to pay a toll to cross the bridge, and you don’t have any money, then you can’t fucking cross the bridge, now can you? And if the ‘opportunity’ happens to be on the other side of the bridge, and one is ‘stuck’ in a given geographical or ideological area that doesn’t provide any of that opportunity, than one isn’t exactly free or liberated.

So, spare me the ideology when it doesn’t translate to the same reality for all. I’ve seen the kind of set-up that RP advocates, and it’s no better than any other privatized system that maintains a grossly unequal access to wealth and resources.

I cannot speak for what you claim Dennis Kucinich has said about he and RP *liking* each other, and it’s actually sort of moot, (and even childish) in terms of political dialogue. In reality, RP was the -shoot down- of a long labored objective on the part of DK, to introduce legislation to impeach cheney.  So, spare me the political rhetoric as well. I DON’T believe they are the least bit alike in their ideologies, once those are broken down into practicalities.

Dennis K even supports reparations/compensations for African-Americans as a result of their slave labor in building the first economy of the nation, as well as literally building the nation. Even I know that is logistically impractical, but RP would have a holy fit at such a thought. (which might be sort of fun to witness) So, If they ‘get along’ in terms of being co-workers in doing the peoples’ business, than so be it. That’s what adults are supposed to do. I’m tired of the Paulies trying to hitch their wagon to DK. If Kucinich is too diplomatic to make the distinction, I will. They are NOTHING alike in ideology or backgrounds.

My further point is that RP has used his alleged ‘Libertarian’ view points/ideology to do everything in his power to maintain a separatist type society, which always, inevitably, DISFAVORS those who are already disfavored. And, THAT is the bottom line.

TBC

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By cyrena, December 22, 2007 at 4:30 am Link to this comment

Part 3 reply to #121692

Even a cursory look at his Congressional record would point that out. It isn’t enough to claim that he has addressed Halliburton’s ‘no bid contracts’, when Halliburton has built itself to what it is, right in his own backyard, and long before they started giving themselves no bid contracts via dick cheney. Of course he could speak out against any ‘subsidy’ of Big Oil - NOW –! How did he feel about it before? How does he feel about Big Pharma?(A rhetorical question, since I don’t know. other than that his rabid supporters suggest that Pfizer should be able to market/distribute cocaine). How about the NRA? Should there be an AK-47 in every American bedroom, and a hand gun in every lunch box? Or, should we have some measure of reasonable gun control? The NRA says no gun control, and so does RP. What about the Establishment Clause? Can we ever get back to a separation of Church and State? Well, if RP has his way, all states can be like Utah. Owned and operated by the Mormons. Or heaven forbid, Texas, with its stupid Blue Law. (though I think they finally gave that up).

Again, my point is that RP has been in Congress for 20 years, and never seemed to have these ‘issues’ before now, as a result of the radical Cabal that has taken over the country, as well as his own party.

He CLAIMS to support the Constitution and the rule of law, but he would like to overturn Roe v Wade, and he has also been instrumental in nullifying Brown v. Board of Education. He also has LONG time associations with organizations that are VERY MUCH tied to big business, in ways that keep them below the radar, with associations legalistically 3, 4, 5 times removed. IOW, they don’t ‘trace back’ to these individual connections so easily. Like, the Rev. Sun Moon.

One discovers this stuff by investigating other things. My own knowledge came, (at least in part) in my work investigating hate crimes and hate groups, many of which are listed ostensibly enough as CHURCHES. Amazingly, (at least it was for me), the sources of the funds for many of these organizations turned out to be wealthy INDIVIDUALS, who would of COURSE never put themselves in any direct association with such groups. And, there were many, many, layers to protect them. As an aside, (and again, IMO) it is from THESE sources that his recent riches have arrived. 

We live and we learn. For those doing socio-legal work, we know that these groups can only be neutralized by getting to the source of the money, ergo, the power. To do that requires a detailed search. It can take years. Inevitably, it traces back (at least in the case of hate groups and hate crimes) to an IDEOLOGICAL foundation. One say, like that of Ron Paul. Ergo, his support from organizations such as the JBS. Or, splinters of the KKK, who have taken on different names that are more socially ‘acceptable’ in the current climate, (or less revealing) but STILL maintain as their ideological mission, a class bias generally based on race and gender.

So, there you have it Kooch, and anyone else who might be interested. You’re right about Dr. Paul as an idealist. And yep, I believe Mr. Kucinich to be an idealist as well. Their ideals are NOT similar, which is what I KNOW makes RP a danger to our larger society. RP not only has a myopic view created from cherry picking parts of this and that, but he presents NO modern alternatives to any of these problems. It’s like I said before, you can do A RADICAL surgery, and cut out the cancer, but if you have to cut too much of it, it must be replaced with something. He has no plans for the replacement. His is an.. ‘if you survive’.. then fine. Otherwise, ‘oh well’. And, we already know where those odds are stacked.

So, my dislike of him (AS AN INDEPENDANT PROGRESSIVE)is for ALL of the RIGHT REASONS, at least based on my own ideology, which isn’t so different than what the majority of Americans want for themselves, individually, and as members of the larger society.

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By neogejo, December 21, 2007 at 9:52 pm Link to this comment
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I agree with Mr. Vidal.  It was a tragedy that Dennis Kucinich was denied to participate in the debate.
I feel that the other presidential hopefuls should have boycotted the debate.

Besides, the republicans let Alan Keys enter the debate.  How crazy was that?

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By 911truthdotorg, December 21, 2007 at 4:58 pm Link to this comment

Let’s hope for a Christmas miracle!

Turning online popularity into real world votes: how Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich can win

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_daniel_n_071221_turning_online_popul.htm

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By Conservative Yankee, December 21, 2007 at 4:49 pm Link to this comment
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121683 by Jean Hay Bright on 12/21 at 7:04 am

I voted for Snowe.

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By PatrickHenry, December 21, 2007 at 3:39 pm Link to this comment

#121692 by Kooch

That was one hell of a post, it made my day.

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By Gabir, December 21, 2007 at 10:00 am Link to this comment

Clarification from Gabir ,
      I chose the Iraqi name Gabir because the Iraqi meaning of the name Gabir is Truth . I am actually a Holy Ghost Catholic which means that I am in total disagreement with Vatican II . I do believe in the right to bear arms as stated in Article II of the Bill of Rights .
      There is a distinct difference between the right to bear arms as it is framed in Article II and the NRA INTERPRETATION AND EXPLOITATION OF ARTICLE II OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS . Let me make it perfectly clear that I am not an NRA member and view the NRA to be an illegitimate and irresponsible organization .
      I do not “have” a candidate for the Office of president of this nation because I do firmly believe that the office of Chief Executive should be history and not part of our future system of government . We do not solely need to elect a replacement for the outgoing despot , we need to change the system drastically and hopefully for everyone , peacefully .
        It is my firm belief that the most effective change would be to be to choose a prospective candidate from EACH state by choice of the Citizenry of each state , NOT BY POLITICAL PARTIES . These people could be from all walks of life , instead of the corporate puppets we have come to know and loathe . These candidates would be free to campaign , but each would receive equal funding from each , from a publicly held trust in each state . No more primaries . Debates could be held in the form of roundtable discussions held around the country in arenas where the public would ask the questions or voice concerns and then receive feedback .
    On the regular date of the Presidential election in November , a national run off election would be held with the top ten candidates in terms of votes received winning a four year seat on a ten member panel of leaders
.    This is only a basic idea of changes that could be made in our government . Change and Ideas are both desparately needed . If you as citizens of this country do not see ,hear ,or feel the urgency for sweeping changes in Washington , D.C. , may God , or whoever , or whatever you believe in—- HELP US ALL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      And no , I do not desire a clerical panel or or for that matter any further blurring of the separation of Church and State as we have seen under this Regime of Losers .

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By Kooch, December 21, 2007 at 9:10 am Link to this comment
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To all rabid Kucinich supporters who can’t stand Ron Paul, I say good for you!—If you don’t like him for the right reasons.  If you believe in a strong central government, welfare, and wealth redistribution, then so be it.  If you believe that the central government is supposed to shape and control all our local institutions, then so be it.  But don’t hate on Ron Paul for the wrong reasons. 

Paul HAS stood up against and railed against the big money thugs in Houston for years.  He has always advocated against subsidizing Big Oil.  He has said we are fighting in Iraq for oil interests—that this war is a remnant of old mercantilistic emperialism and is wrong.  He spoke out against Halliburton and their no-bid contracts. 

There are many reasons for Progressives to not like Ron Paul.  But to say he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing, or to say he is putting on a show to gain support is just wrong.  Ron Paul is a real idealist.  Some of his ideals are at odds with Progressive politics.  But that doesn’t make him evil.

It is worth noting that both Paul and Kucinich have said in interviews that they not only respect each other, but call themselves “friends”.  They *like* each other.  If Paul was an evil Republican insider, Kucinich woud distance himself from him.  But Paul is not, so Dennis does not.

Supporting Ron Paul is about shaking up the current system. Its about attacking and attempting to reshape the Republican party while it is weak. The neocons are on the ropes. It is time for a KO.  And if you don’t understand the difference between libertarian and neo-con philosophies you need to do more research.  Sure, a libertarian will vote against taxes and spending every time.  They will seem harsh and idealistic.  Neo-cons are about oppression and control.  They are corporate fascists.  They use libertarian slogans to disguise their true intentions.  “Privitization” is code for insider dealings and government largess.  “Free Trade” is code for controlled trade that favors the international banking cartel and the corporations that profit from the current system.  Paul opposes fake privitization, insider deals, Nafta, Cafta, the WTO, the IMF…......... 

Of course, no one can turn the Republican party into a lefty progressive party. And while the party may be currently weak, you can’t kill it. They will be in power again. Supporting Ron Paul is about reforming that party before they can regroup and whitewash their neo-con crimes again.  Its about forcing them back to their principles. The GOP is supposed to be about minimizing government and maximizing personal freedom. –Good principles if ya ask me, but ones they abandoned long ago. 

I will support any principled candidate. Between the Republicans and Democrats we have Kucinich, Gravel, and Paul (and sort of Chris Dodd). Kucinich is the real deal on the Dem side, and I hope he wins—and I will vote for him in my state’s open primary if Paul is out and Dennis is rising by the time it gets here.  But in the case of Ron Paul, I see a principled candidate who has a shot at really changing one of the two monster parties that rule our politics. Supporting Ron Paul is about bucking the status quo, it is about subversion from within.  Kucinich knows that.

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By aeskylos, December 21, 2007 at 8:29 am Link to this comment
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Don’t blame Wolf Blitzer. He is just being loyal to one of his countries- Israel. That particular place does not like anti-war peacemongers like Kucinich.

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By Jean Hay Bright, December 21, 2007 at 8:04 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

What I find amazing—and disheartening—in this long discussion is that no one has mentioned the obvious come-back for the deliberate marginalization and exclusion of Dennis Kucinich from the debates and campaign coverage. And that is VOTE FOR KUCINICH IN YOUR STATE’S CAUCUS OR PRIMARY! Show the MSM that they can’t limit your choices, or dictate your vote.

In Iowa and other caucus states, that means standing for Kucinich or for Uncommitted (thereby electing a Kucinich delegate or one who will go to the state convention able to vote for anyone, even Kucinich), and not being persuaded to give up your caucus vote to another, lesser candidate. 

In primary states, where people vote by secret ballot, register your protest—and your hopes—by voting for Kucinich IN THE PRIMARY. It’s not enough to let the DLC Democrats make the choice in the primaries, which you will then have to agonize over in November.  Make yourself heard NOW, in the next few months, whenever your state is part of the process.  Use the power of your vote. 

Make all those online polls where Kucinich comes in FIRST (The Nation magazine, Progressive Democrats of America, Democracy for America, the most recent being IndependentPrimary.com, all of which the Mainstream Media ignores) a reality within the confides of our political system. Just do it!

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By John Hanks, December 21, 2007 at 7:55 am Link to this comment
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I see that Captain Peachfuzz has taken the bait.  I’d love to double my small business and stock market investments.  I’m afraid he is just doing the usual right-wing flopping around.

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By Conservative Yankee, December 21, 2007 at 7:12 am Link to this comment
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121587 by Paracelsus on 12/20 at 5:21 pm

@ #121583 by Gabir

“I cannot vote for Kucinich precisely because he is anti Second Amendment. I do not want to be without a gun in the fake GWOT, police state. Kucinich should know this instinctively: you do not disarm the citizennry in the face of a dictatorial police state.”

As an NRA member and a gun owner, I do not fear Kucinich on this issue. He must (like all candidates) pander to his base, BUT when he was a city counselor, and later as a congressman he has a concealed wepons permit, and was reported to carry a gun.

That is all I need to feel my RIGHT under the Second Ammendment is assured in a Kucinich presidency.

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By cyrena, December 21, 2007 at 5:08 am Link to this comment

#121592 jbart

Jbart,

Thanks for the acknowledgment. I take heart (and limited hope) that there are still those among us who can exercise critical thinking and intuitive judgment. But, as you see, we are more and more under siege by the Trojan Horses, who have already tasted the kool-aid.

One of MANY examples is Joe’s response to you @#121600.

He says that Libertarians have NOTHING ‘in common’ with the neocon repugs. Gee, that would seem odd. How is it that Ron Paul has been a repug from TX for 10 terms, equaling 20 years, and voted with them 99.9% of the time, with nary a mention of the ‘Libertarian’ stuff until very recently? How odd. Did he not have an opportunity to run as an Independent on a Libertarian platform, if he was so ‘unlike’ the repug party that he has been in for over 3 decades?

No, the Libertarian part of the hoax is simply the newest flavor, for the crowd too impatient or greedy to actually look at the whole.

I had my own experience in that Ron Paul type environment, which is actually very typical for the majority of TX. (not ALL of it, but certainly MOST of it). His district adjoins that of the now disgraced Tom Delay, the home of the biggest crooks of the corporate oligarchy. (Houston) Are we to assume that Ron Paul has been adamantly opposed to all of these neocon thugs, IN HIS OWN BACK YARD, and just never got around to mentioning it these past 20 years? I think not.

Still, despite my own personal knowledge of this crowd and its tricks, (or maybe BECAUSE of it, since I wanted to equip myself with some balance and fact to back up my gut) I’ve spent a considerable amount of time lately, pouring over his history, as well as his congressional record. It actually proved even WORSE than what I already knew.

Now of course since the bottom has fallen out of that crowd, and things have spiraled so rapidly down, RP has taken on the new persona of one who has always been at odds with the Tom Delay’s and the Dick Cheney’s and the Bush Dynasty, etc, etc. Indeed, it’s all a new costume, one he’s apparently willing to wear for as long as it takes, to fool as many as he can. And, it seems to be working.

I vaguely remember some wording from an article (I believe one of Chris Hedges on the Decline of the American Empire) that not ONLY would ‘the masses’ succomb to it, they would actually DEMAND it! In other words, GIVE US THE POISON!! Maybe even fight with each other to get their “dose”, least they be left out. The grotesque irony of course is that those of us who know what it is, DAMN sure don’t want a drop. We know the results, not only for the mindless morons, but for all of us.

So we are a dying breed I fear, among those without an appreciation for history, and this horrible cultural/historical amnesia that seems to afflict so much of the population. If a majority of us had any sense of that, we would not have been stuck with the likes of the Cabal in Power, for the past 7 years. For anyone to actually suggest that RP has ‘nothing in common’ with them is the proof. And, I’ve heard the same BS before. Nothing in common, eh? Right.

So, we might have to form our own ‘survival’ club, if RP is able to dissolve this once UNITED States of America experiment. He’s actually MORE dangerous than the plague, which is far more recognizable as such.

We’ve still got rougher times ahead.

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By Captain Peachfuzz, December 20, 2007 at 11:41 pm Link to this comment

Parable of the Talents

A master summoned his four servants and to each gave $380.31.

The first used the $380.31 to start a business and he soon doubled the amount.

The second used the $380.31 to invest in stocks and he too doubled the amount.

The third one dug a hole and buried the $380.31 and a goat ate some of it.

The fourth and shortest of the servants, let’s call him Dennis, used his $380.31 to run for President.

When the master returned he inquired from each about the money he had gave them.

With the first two he was well pleased and later he would share with them some fine cigars and dirty jokes.

He could hardly believe that number three had buried the money.  “Buried it?!”  Why I ought to kick your… well, let me see about number four, I’ll get back to you”

“Number four?”

“My name is Dennis, sir, and I used the $380.31 in a run for President and I got .5% of the vote in the primaries.”

“In the primaries!!  You loathsome ass, you make number three look like J. Paul Getty” (numbers one and two laugh hard at this.)

And the message of this parable is self-evident.

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By John Hanks, December 20, 2007 at 10:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tje rich filth have finished their detention camps.  That have plenty of interlocking secret police organizations, and they have now passed a bill outlawing dissent as terrorism.  Do you really want to live forever in Naziland?

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By Joe, December 20, 2007 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment
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#121592 by jbart on 12/20 at 6:02 pm
“This is just the latest “flavor” of the Repugs attempting to “appear” to care about America and its citizens..”

JB—??libertarians have nothing in common with neocon Republicans. Where did you get this impression? Today’s Republican Party has thrown us into massive debt, weakened our military, trashed our civil liberties, damaged the quality of K12 education and thrown thousands of veterans out onto the streets. You are really missing out on a chance for renewed democracy.

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By PatrickHenry, December 20, 2007 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment

#121481 by Non Credo

Actually, but for the article I’ve never visited that site, I found It on Rense one day and noticed that most if not all of the heads of newspapers, major media outlets and the film industry were jews.  It also gave a bio on every one which was even more interesting given the interconnectedness of it all.  While I don’t adhere to that sites claim of “White” media, I do believe other ethnicities and religions should involve themselves in the news media as the recent clear channel deal with the Mormons holding company demonstrates. Create more competition and critique, we will get better news.

As it stands right now an ethnic and religious minority in this country is in a position to exert considerable pressure over what is reported or not reported as news in this country, especially if involves negative criticism of Israel.

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By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, December 20, 2007 at 8:10 pm Link to this comment

How do you suppose the 2nd amendment might read if the constitution had been written before the invention of gunpowder?  How do you think it would read if the authors had any inkling that a couple hundred years down the road, we’d be talking mass annihilation?  We need to come into the 21st century.  JUST WHAT THE HELL IS A “WELL-REGULATED MILITIA???”  Those guys were neither infallable nor sages.

I agree.  Delete the office of the president but don’t replace it with anything religious. It’s already bad enough.

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By cyrena, December 20, 2007 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

Part 1
#121566 observer
•    interesting to note that even though Paul and Kucinich are both sidelined by their respective parties, it is Ron Paul has refused to fade into oblivion. His supporters, though sometimes they sound like fundamentalists, are trying really hard to get Paul’s message out. The money bombs are testimony to this fact. I do not see a similar effort by the Kucinich supporters.
I can see only two possible explanations for this.
1. There are more supporters of Paul than Kucinich
2. The supporters of Kucinich are not enterprising enough or motivated enough to help his campaign
3. People sick and tired of the Federal Govt.
that some liberals and advocates of a strong Federal Govt. have started having second thoughts.
You have to keep in mind that Paul’s supporters consist of both liberal and conservative people, which is not true for Kucinich.

Observer,
You actually noted 3 explanations;I think they’re all wrong. A far better explanation is provided by CharliePatton @#121558. His is an excellent post that gets to the heart of things, so you should check it out. His words seem harsh, (as he admits) but they unfortunately reflect the truth of the mentality of this nation as a collective. In part:

•  What people are failing to take into account is that our problem is not the American government - it’s the American people. Bush and the so-called “Mainstream media” are only an epitome of them: foolish, ignorant, arrogant, and morally bankrupt. ….It’s too late for Dennis Kucinich—or any other candidate who would legislate in the interest of America’s fading middle class.

I would suggest that Kuncinich is the only candidate that would legislate in the interest of America’s fading middle class, (which actually includes those ignorant, arrogant, foolish, and morally bankrupts) and that’s why he’s doesn’t have the same ‘money bombs’ that RP is managing to gather, from the most desperate among them, who still HAVE some money to provide.

While both have been sidelined by the MSM and their respective parties, that’s where the similarity ends, and it is no doubt for different reasons (political power plays). Charlie Patton continues:

•  America is a cruel country populated by a jaded, self-indulgent, consumptive and self-centered people. So, Americans are well represented by a cruel, arrogant, ignorant, inarticulate, sociopath who masquerades as a “cowboy” for a president. These are harsh words, but let me try to justify them.
Indeed his words are harsh, but sadly true. The reality is that RP represents the interests of this very same mentality, masquerading in a different form. More crudely put, same shit, different smell.
So, he’s the country Doc, except that he can’t possibly have practiced medicine much, since he’s been in Congress for 20 years, being the same radically right conservative repug as the others, coming only now, to the ‘rescue’ as a phony maverick, that would gain back the rights of this class that believes they have a specialty status.
Mr. Patton continues:

•  Bush is an epitome of American dysfunction, not an anomaly. Decent people would have strung Bush up by now. Americans, considered collectively are just like Bush: anti-intellectual, superstitious, winner take all, ends justify the means, sense of privilege and entitlement, sense of superiority of culture and belief that the world envies us, quick to violence and heavily armed, the list is endless. America the collective, like Bush, is a sociopath.
This describes RP, and the collective America that he would represent. Another Bush, more articulate, and in different clothing; promising to maintain that sense of privilege and entitlement, which is what the mentality of this nation was founded upon. The landed and aristocratic, paternalistic gentry class, that would enslave the masses, or simply starve us off, not unlike the Indigenous population was wiped out by disease, starvation, and removal to the periphery.

TBC

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By cyrena, December 20, 2007 at 8:05 pm Link to this comment

Part 2 #121566 observer

It is from THEM that the money bombs materialize, since they are convinced he is their last chance to restore their privilege and sense of entitlement; too ignorant to know that this will not save the majority of them, but rather only those in the ‘alliance’ that promises to restore the dominant (white power) authority to them. It is their greed that will not only finish them off, but the rest of us as well.

So, that’s why you see this phenomena of RP as you say..refusing to back down, despite ‘appearing’ to be marginalized by the MSM and his own party. I think it is appearances only, pretending to offer something different than what has been offered by the other thugs of his party, which is what provides his appeal.

Again, same shit, packaged differently to sell to the same basically ignorant and immoral crowd of the collectively dysfunctional America.
So, that’s why RP has refused to ‘fade away’ into the oblivion (as you call it) or the scum of the swamps (as I call it) from which he has been operating, mostly under the radar, until recently.
I won’t argue that he appeals to both liberals and conservatives, but only the collectively dysfunctional of both, who are really not liberal at all. They are only ‘liberal’ in the sense that they want what they want for themselves, by whatever means justify those ends, and if that’s what RP ‘appears’ to promise, then that’s what they’ll go for.

So, the real explanation is contained in CharliePatton’s post, not yours. You should check it out. As he says so well, DECENT PEOPLE would have strung Bush et al up by now. Ron Paul has not been among them, but rather has bided his time (and helped to PREVENT that very thing, as displayed by his recent move to block the resolution of Dennis Kucinich, that would allow for the impeachment of the chief thug, Dick Cheney) and waited until now to present himself as the alternative to what in reality, he has always represented.

And, he will continue to fool the ignorant and the greedy, and the self-centered who feel that his promise of a privileged class, (though he doesn’t word it as such – but rather it is an advocacy for privatization that goes even further beyond what has come from the Corporate Oligarchy) will include them.

It won’t of course, and regardless of whether or not one is a true conservative or a true liberal, (most don’t know the difference, and so I would argue that you’re also wrong in your statement that the supporters of Dennis Kucinich do not include both) one should clearly research and examine more of RP’s history, as well as his congressional record, and without a doubt, the ‘associations’ that have provided the bulk of the money bombs that you claim as testimony.

It is dangerous to underestimate the fundamentalist mentality, which is actually nothing more than a return to a strict separation of the aristocracy from an ever decreasing proletariat class, melding into the masses that will be left to CONTINUE fighting amongst ourselves for the scraps that might be remaining, until we’re right back to where we were 300 years ago. NOT GOOD.

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By John Hanks, December 20, 2007 at 7:13 pm Link to this comment
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I wish people would quit romanticizing the power of firearms.  All you have to do is look at Iraq to see how bogus they are.  Nobody is going to take anyone’s guns away. 

In fact, dictators like Saddam handed AK-47s out so people would have a false sense of security.  The American public has always been easy to enslave, because it always has false hope, and it has Nazi triumphalist values.

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By jbart, December 20, 2007 at 7:02 pm Link to this comment
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121487 by cyrena on 12/20 at 7:14 am
Your distrust and skepticism of Ron Paul,as well as of those “bloggers” that are in agreement of same, is totally justified.This is just the latest “flavor” of the Repugs attempting to “appear” to care about America and its citizens(and,of course,our welfare). As the Trojan Horse mythology lesson teaches us,“beware of strangers bearing gifts”, this is just another attempt to create “caring for America & its citizens” perceptions where there is no justice intended. Like “Billy-boy” Clinton professing to be a Demo/Liberal.  Same game, different name. Avoid this complicit SOB like the plague, folks. He’s a, veritable, “wolf” in “sheep’s clothing” if I ever saw one.

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By troublesum, December 20, 2007 at 7:00 pm Link to this comment

Watch Conyers being questioned by Amy Goodman about impeachment of Bush and Cheney.  Pathetic.
http://www.democracynow.org

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By Paracelsus, December 20, 2007 at 6:21 pm Link to this comment

@ #121583 by Gabir

I cannot vote for Kucinich precisely because he is anti Second Amendment. I do not want to be without a gun in the fake GWOT, police state. Kucinich should know this instinctively: you do not disarm the citizennry in the face of a dictatorial police state.

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By Gabir, December 20, 2007 at 5:44 pm Link to this comment

Constitution of the United States of America Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    Sorry to all you folks who seem to think I am of the John Wayne mentality or seek civil war . All I see in this political process is insanity . With each successive President elected , we are served with more corruption , more lies , more incompetence , more power grabbing , more cronyism , more scandal , more military spending and execution of military intervention around the globe , more jobs exported , more money borrowed from foreign countries (CHINA) , a balooning national debt , more people below the poverty line , more children without health care , a national infrastructure on the verge of collapse , a slow but steady erosion of personal and civil rights , bribery AKA Lobbying , etc.,etc. etc. . If you really are invested in the political circus of today , then you are perfectly matched with Albert Einstein’s definition of insanity .
    Oh my - fighting for freedom and dignity on our own turf !!!!! No , as long as it is somewhere else and we do not see the caskets come home , and also the devastation we have wreaked on the populations in the Middle East - then you cowards say - “oh , yeah I thought I saw something about that on TV last night , but I was kind of busy and didn’t catch much of it” .
    Another poster asked who my candidate is and my response is that in my opinion the office of president should be eliminated and replaced by a panel of Muslim Clerics .

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By John Hanks, December 20, 2007 at 5:14 pm Link to this comment
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Have you rioted against the Republican crooks today?  Have you stood up to a Republican bully?  Has a bully scared or angered you today? (Not good).  Did you put a sign in the window of your car today?  Did you put a sign in the window of your house or apartment today.  Did you walk out when a discussion turned into an argument today?  Are all these questions rhetorical today?  Learn black hatred.  It will carry you a lot farther in fighting against the filth.

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By weather, December 20, 2007 at 4:47 pm Link to this comment
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I question iQ’s I.Q.?

Mollify as you might, but there maybe no country on Earth that goes through the utter contortions of Israel to cut, paste and create a truth. It’s a petri-dish of mis and disinformation - its very construct is synthetic.
Why do I believe this, because Hollywood and MSM told me so. They did and do what they do best, create myths. They turned TelAviv into Frank Capra’s Bedford Falls and I fell over the falls. I used to think Israel was a refuge, a place of solace, today its a Global disgrace.
And as long as Israel prevericates and motivates distrust amongst themselves it will translate universally and they’ll have absolutely No one to blame but themselves.
For a country that ‘justs wants to left alone’ why is the Israeli Lobby’s Aircraft Carrier parked in our living rooms?

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By karim29007, December 20, 2007 at 4:05 pm Link to this comment

On Kucinich, media,.....
—————————

As expected, Rupert Murdoch, cnn and other media moguls got that present from FCC chairman Kevin Martin, with the full support of AIPAC, just in time for Christmas!.

He redrew “cross-ownership” rules.

The FCC has approved new rules that will unleash a flood of media consolidation across America.
The new rules will further consolidate local media markets—taking away independent voices in cities already woefully short on local news and investigative journalism.
It seems we are heading full speed towards complete check-book journalism and media- blackmail ,papaRatsism and total opinion-embargo !

Contact your local congress-person urging them to stop the FCC and stand with the public interest.

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By SamIam, December 20, 2007 at 3:38 pm Link to this comment
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Recently rereading Arnold Toynbee’s ideas on the breakdown and disintegration of civilization I have to agree with Vidal’s point of view.  Yet there will not be meaningful change until the middle class is undermined as in the 1930’s.  Then we had a strong socialist movement, local currencies etc.  As the economy slowly falls, and it will take awhile, remember Egypt took 2500 years, (but things happen faster in cyberspace), the middle class will be destroyed.  Just like children, those of privilege are far more dangerous to themselves and others when they have their privilege taken away, especially when they see those privileges as their god given right.  Unlike people who have always been slaves, the slave just wants freedom, the disenfranchised American wants so much more.  As Aldous Huxley said, “Rights are not given, they are taken.”  But rights are taken by those ready to take the responsibility that comes with them, good or bad.  People who feel they no longer have any choice, will step up and take responsibilities.  Until that time, a time when there is not much of a middle class anymore, don’t expect to hear common sense being spoken by public leaders like Dennis Kucinich.

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By i,Q, December 20, 2007 at 3:33 pm Link to this comment

Yes, yes Gabir, since nothing can be done, i suppose we should all either lay down and die or go out like Butch and Sundance with guns blazing (as Conservative Yanker suggests).

Violent revolution is a last resort, and should not be seriously considered until we have exhausted all other means of change. Surely it would be difficult for Kucinich to be a one man wave of positive change, he would need the support of an enlightened Congress, but there are more than two check boxes on the ballot last time i checked.

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By observer, December 20, 2007 at 3:17 pm Link to this comment
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It’s interesting to note that even though Paul and Kucinich are both sidelined by their respective parties, it is Ron Paul who has refused to fade away into oblivion. His supporters, though sometimes they sound like fundamentalists, are trying really hard to get Paul’s message out. The money bombs are testimony to this fact. I do not see a similar effort by the Kucinich supporters.

I can see only two possible explanations for this.

1. There are more supporters of Paul than Kucinich

2. The supporters of Kucinich are not enterprising enough or motivated enough to help his campaign

3. People are so sick and tired of the Federal Govt.
that some liberals and advocates of a strong Federal Govt. have started having second thoughts.

You have to keep in mind that Paul’s supporters consist of both liberal and conservative people, which is not true for Kucinich.

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By mythbreaker, December 20, 2007 at 2:55 pm Link to this comment
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non credo. I was responding to Conservative Yankee, that was a cheap shot on their part. Its easy to avoid authentic criticism by throwing the anti-semetic shroud around. It just doesn’t work anymore.

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By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, December 20, 2007 at 2:50 pm Link to this comment

#121521 Gabir

    “One person can not turn back the clock on so many years of domestic and foreign policy executed in the name of corporate interests here and around the globe starting with LBJ and culminating with Bush/Cheney.”

Remember the “one person” presidential veto?

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By Joe, December 20, 2007 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#121521 by Gabir on 12/20 at 10:07 am
Gabir-  You make some practical points but what else can one do when a clear-thinking planner like Mr. Kucinich is cut out of the process? We have to try, at least. Gore Vidal is using his best asset: his ability to energetically bring important issues to the attention of readers. Can’t give in to fatalism, even if a bad outcome seems likely. “Bearing arms” is fine in a civil war but I doubt you’re wishing that on us. Who is your candidate?

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By i,Q, December 20, 2007 at 2:20 pm Link to this comment

Actually Non-Credo, suffering through life with constant paranoia and delusions of grand conspiracies is symptomatic of both bi-polar disorder and schizophrenia, both of which are highly treatable in the modern age.

It is plain to see, even from a quick jaunt through the site so generously shared by PatrickHenry that the media is not controlled by a Jewish cabal, but rather by a bunch of rich white guys, a small minority of whom are also Jewish. For those who can’t stomach the neo-nazi triangulations in the text, all you have to do is look at the photos.

It also seems to me, that were it not for the anti-semitic lunacy of Hitler and the Nazi party’s persecution and slaughter of Jews in Germany and Nazi controlled Europe, Israel might never have been (re)created, and would therefore not remain a pet project of its creators (the US and Great Britain). So it turns out that the white power whiners are the victims of their own disgusting ancestors. But, i’m sure i’m simply brainwashed by all that inconvenient Holocaust propaganda eschewed by the pro-Israel lobby.

i’ll save you the trouble of posting your infantile response: “Well, that’s exactly what they want you to think.”

i might agree with you that the US should stop favoring Israel in its foreign policy and treat it as it would any other country, but i will never accept a world view that is so myopic as to attribute so much of the world’s ills to so singular a catalyst. Wake up, the world’s a big place and chock-full of people preying on weak minds trying to make a profit promoting their agenda.

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By CharliePatton, December 20, 2007 at 2:20 pm Link to this comment
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Gore Vidal states, “I have never felt more ashamed being an American than when I saw how this debate was handled.”

I agree.

What people are failing to take into account is that our problem is not the American government - it’s the American people. Bush and the so-called “Mainstream media” are only an epitome of them: foolish, ignorant, arrogant, and morally bankrupt.

It’s too late for Dennis Kucinich—or any other candidate who would legislate in the interest of America’s fading middle class.

And you’re not going to impeach “them”? The average American is dead weight. This country is doomed to failure and a continual march to self-destruction and irrelevancy no matter how hard we handful of despised progressives shout about it.

Moreover, democratic processes are ineffective now. Forget voting, campaigning, demonstrating, letter writing and the like. If you can’t prevail by force (and you can’t), you have no more say except whether you accept or leave this infected blister of a nation.

Those who are willing to protest—a shrinking number—are recognizing that we’re well beyond the stage where protest can be effective. It requires a democracy.

Face it. We had three [3] consecutive tainted elections already in 2000, 2002, and 2004, all with losers assuming office. Many believe that the last honest national election was in the mid-twentieth century.

In 2006, the voters sent Congress and the president a mandate to begin ending their war. They laughed. They double-crossed those who voted for them with abandon. Congress took impeachment off of the table and approved Bush’s war budget without benchmarks, goals or time-lines. With the Democrats tacit approval Bush escalated the war.

I believe that it’s too late for activism.

America is a cruel country populated by a jaded, self-indulgent, consumptive and self-centered people. So, Americans are well represented by a cruel, arrogant, ignorant, inarticulate, sociopath who masquerades as a “cowboy” for a president. These are harsh words, but let me try to justify them.

Those ugly qualities are not the ones for which America gives Bush a low approval rating. All of those things were known by 2004, when Bush garnered close to half of the votes legitimately.

What America objects to is that Bush isn’t kicking Iraq’s ass hard enough.

Despite the extremely long laundry list of Bush’s failures and deficiencies, the only reason, in my opinion, that America has given up on him is the same reason that George Steinbrenner turned on Joe Torre: he’s not kicking enough ass.

Bush is an epitome of American dysfunction, not an anomaly. Decent people would have strung Bush up by now. Americans, considered collectively are just like Bush: anti-intellectual, superstitious, winner take all, ends justify the means, sense of privilege and entitlement, sense of superiority of culture and belief that the world envies us, quick to violence and heavily armed, the list is endless. America the collective, like Bush, is a sociopath.

Bush is not the anomaly; it’s American culture that is so deformed, of which Bush is just an epitome. In fact, I would argue that America is, collectively, a sociopath. My people shame me, not just the federal government.

I find this out-of-control corporate/fascist culture indefensible in every sense of the word and dangerous to be near.

America is shit—that’s right, SHIT—and the never-ending 27-year shift of the American political spectrum to the extreme right is solely to blame.

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By from.. it doesn't take a village, December 20, 2007 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

for #121498 by cyrena on 12/20 at 8:00 am
Cyrena responded to my post (“it doesn’t take a village” #121412 on 12/19 at 8:51 pm)

Cyrena’s comments, in part, included:
“It doesn’t take a village, (or whatever shit you’re trying to pull)”

“YOU are the one who is a fake in any real eyes. In short, you’re a troll, attempting the same perfidy and other nasty tricks of your ilk. You are so immediately noticeable, as a Paulie snake, that we see though you right away.

SO, GO the HELL AWAY…and stop trying to defame people…”

Here is what I had written to VillageElder in response to her inaccurate attack on Dr. Ron Paul:

• “VillageElder, The intent, spirit, honesty and humility of Ron Paul’s dignified presentations have all been distorted by you for whatever reason. I am a harsh critic of most of the two-Party candidates but base my argument on fact, quote, intent, clarity of planning. When you distort the candidate’s views, you diminish yourself.”

I truly do not understand Cyrena’s charges against me and also her anger. Whom did I defame? Why am I a snake? I am an advocate for honest government. My man is Dr. Ron Paul. I would also vigorously support Dennis Kucinich, were he able to win the nomination. What some don’t seem to understand is that the policy content and such differences between the candidates, in this particular election, are far less important than whether or not the candidate has overall integrity and the goal of a safer world at heart. Kucinich, Senator Gravel, John Edwards and my candidate, Dr. Ron Paul, all possess the needed vision and strength to move us in the direction of a non-nuclear world in which the impoverished overseas are at least offered physical safety from US attack and are able to access teaching and technical tools to bring their populations a stable, decent base from which to work. The candidates I mentioned all, I believe, have the strength of character to move us in the right direction.

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By mythbreaker, December 20, 2007 at 11:50 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

antisemitisim:Is a cloaking device of deflection, it says in no uncertain terms;Please don’t make me confront the truth about myself - Im above criticism and consequence for my part, so let me shift the onus back on to you.

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By John Hanks, December 20, 2007 at 11:47 am Link to this comment
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Did any of the other candidates back up Kucinnich’s right to be there.  No?  I thought so.

Fear and anger produce demoralization.  Is anyone full of a habitual black hatred yet?

It is not liberal versus conservative, nor is it Democratic versus Republican.  It is wage slave versus rich filth.

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By Gabir, December 20, 2007 at 11:07 am Link to this comment

Dear Bore Vidal ,
    Why was this type of treatment OK for Ralph Nader , and yet soooooooooooo unjust for poor , mild mannered Dennis (The Next Messiah) Kucinich . So what if you feel that he is in the tradition of Washington and Jefferson . Do you (with all your brains and your Iconic stature ) actually believe that if Mr. Kucinich were elected to the Presidency of this nation we would experience any effective change in Washington or our corporate designed foreign policy ? One person can not turn back the clock on so many years of domestic and foreign policy executed in the name of corporate interests here and around the globe starting with LBJ and culminating with Bush/Cheney .
      Experience should have taught us that our political system has become a snowballing failure and history reveals that the office of the president is more about corporate puppetry rather than effective leadership . The American people deserve better , and one person is not capable of delivering the massive number of changes needed to navigate us into a more promising future .
      Not only do we need to repair our domestic damage , but also the gross damages we inflicted on foreign countries . Anyone who believes that we can just yank out our tent stakes in Afganistan and Iraq and leave is not mentally competent . We need to repair what we have damaged there or face World War III . We are on the brink of that now . Russia will not tolerate any further military escalation by the US in the Middle East and yet Bush/Cheney could take us into Iran while our impotent/corrupt elected representatives in both houses just sit on their thumbs and count their corporate booty for going along .
    The only people who can change the course of this “Titanic” Nation are it’s citizens and the action required has nothing to do with voting and everything to do with the “True” Right to Bear Arms .

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By Conservative Yankee, December 20, 2007 at 9:28 am Link to this comment
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121487 by cyrena on 12/20 at 7:14 am

“We’re all in this together”

No, we’re not, unless you have some group of which you refer which does not include all the folks who post here. 

I’m NOT “in this” with the despicable anti semites who have posted here. I’m not in this with the open borders advocates, the globalists, the religious evangelicals, nor the folks who would sell us out (yet again) to people with the purpose of off-shoring our manufacturing sector, and importing dangerous products from the same countries we gave a segment of our economy. 

WE are definitely NOT in this together. make no mistakes When this becomes a shooting war (which if their are any balls left it surely will) I strongly suggest a duck&cover;position as opposed to standing in the open asking “can’t we all just get along”

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By cyrena, December 20, 2007 at 9:00 am Link to this comment

#121412 by it doesn’t take a village

•  VillageElder, The intent, spirit, honesty and humility of Ron Paul’s dignified presentations have all been distorted by you for whatever reason. I am a harsh critic of most of the two-Party candidates but base my argument on fact, quote, intent, clarity of planning. When you distort the candidate’s views, you diminish yourself.

It doesn’t take a village, (or whatever shit you’re trying to pull)

YOU are the one who is a fake in any real eyes. In short, you’re a troll, attempting the same perfidy and other nasty tricks of your ilk. You are so immediately noticeable, as a Paulie snake, that we see though you right away.

SO, GO the HELL AWAY…and stop trying to defame people of honesty and integrity. We’re not stupid, and we see your evil. Take Ron Paul with you, or at least give him the message. We are not fooled.

And, based on what we’ve heard from Ron Paul and his disciples like YOU, it’s hard to imagine that I could ever point to a person even lower than cheney on the poll of pure scum, but Ron Paul has proven me wrong. (or at least you, his disciples have)

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By cyrena, December 20, 2007 at 8:14 am Link to this comment

#121452 by troublesum on 12/20 at 3:18 am

Troublesum, THANK YOU as well!! Forgive me for reposting your words…verbatim. I just want to make sure that EVERYBODY stops to think and realize this!!

“....How breathtakngly naive Ron Paul’s supporters are.  They keep talking about some sort of partership between Kucinich and Paul who are at opposite ends of the political spectrum.  It’s that lack of attention to the political process that’s gotten us where we are now.  “Flip a coin” to decide who gets what after they win?  Will they be wearing their tinfoil hats?...”

In SHORT…Dennis Kucinich and RP ARE polar opposites in ideology. RP has managed to fool a whole bunch of folks, and tie his wagon to the genuine integrity of Dennis Kucinich, which I think is DESPICABLE. But, unless we (and in you all) keep that in focus, many Americans will continue to be fooled.

That’s just the way it is, and it’s also why we’ve had 7 years of total destruction. RP is a repug for a REASON. He could have switched up at ANY point, in the past 20 years. He votes with them, and he supports them in action, 99.9% of the time, INCLUDING his blockage of Dennis Kucinich’s most recent courageous move to impeach dick the snake cheney.

OPEN YOUR EYES folks. Do a little reseach. We’re all in this together, so we’re all counting on each other to be wise.

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By cyrena, December 20, 2007 at 8:01 am Link to this comment

#121481 by Non Credo

•  re: #121457 by PatrickHenry on 12/20 at 4:08 am:
Pat, the site you sent us to is run by the “National Alliance”, whose “National Vanguard” magazine promotes “a way of life by which we hope to secure a future for White people around the world.”
That, to me, is just as icky as Israel’s racist designation to itself as the nation of “the Jewish people,” instead of the nation of its citizens. Do you really think it’s healthy for any arbitrarily designated racial/ethnic category of people — whether “the White people”, or “the Jewish people”, or “the Serbs”, or the “Aryans” — to obsess about securing its “way of life”?
Ah, Non Credo,

THANK YOU SO MUCH for ‘noticing’ this. It’s pretty much what I’ve been saying all along, (based on some experience and study) but it was looking like I was getting absolutely NO WHERE.

The thing with establishing a ‘way of life’ for white people, is HARDLY new. It was the founding mentality, for anyone who really might be interested in the history of this place we all call home.

Still, I gave up on PH realizing this long ago, even though I suspect this is EXACTLY what makes Ron Paul so appealing to him.

Thanks again, for pointing this out. When it comes from me, we blame the message on the messenger. (he’s already called me a racist of color, which couldn’t be further from the truth, since my own background is about as diverse as they come)

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By Douglas Chalmers, December 20, 2007 at 7:36 am Link to this comment

#121463 by Douglas Chalmers on 12/20…....

Somebody said that here before??? There- I’ve done it again, uhh!

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By Douglas Chalmers, December 20, 2007 at 6:07 am Link to this comment

#121174 by Non Credo on 12/19: “...on Fox News, Rep. Paul was asked about that not-so-subtle white cross in the Huckabee ad….. Ron Paul said:-
“It reminds me of what Sinclair Lewis once said, he says that when fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. .... You wonder about using a cross like he is the only Christian, or implying that subtlely…”

The real test is that anyone who believes in “Thou shalt NOT kill” and “Do unto others….”, etc etc still actually wants to be commander-in-chief of the largest armed forces in the world…....

Oh, it was the KKK ‘burning cross’, was it? - well that’s OK then - especially in Texas, uhh!

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By Conservative Yankee, December 20, 2007 at 6:06 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

121378 by Captain Peachfuzz on 12/19 at 6:26 pm

“Kucinich used his ‘04 campaign to find himself a wife.  It’s true, google it!  So why should anyone take him seriously?  God help us should he do to the whole country what he did to Cleveland!”

Shades of Edward Everett Horton, wasn’t Peachfuzz’s nick name “Wrong-way”

If thiswas a joke I get it.

The “Mistake-by-the-lake” (which predated Kucinich) looks successful when compared to the disaster on the Potomac!

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By PatrickHenry, December 20, 2007 at 5:08 am Link to this comment

#121454 by i,Q

It is definitely something the media and the zionists would rather us not know, regardless of where the news article came from, it connects the dots and is true and very relevant to why Kucinich and Paul are being marginalized.

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