#118439 by Davidovitch on 12/06: “...French still retains some currency in former French SE Asian colonies such as Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia).  Germany has never had a colonial presence in E/SE Asia...”

French is also a common language in North and Central Africa as they were avid and rapacious colonialists as much as the English.

There was a German presence in Asia as well the Pacific, Africa and China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_German_colonies

“The average Asian is very poor in English (China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Lao, and Cambodia (Kampuchea).  The Pinoy’s (Filipinos) aren’t too bad and better than most. “

Yeah, I did sort of find this when I was working in Manila, it’s just that in their daily communications I almost never heard English, not even a pidginized English-- it was all in Tagalog/Filipino, at least in Luzon.  I had to learn some basic Tagalog phrases just to use the buses!  And you’re definitely right about the other countries, in China and Japan where I’ve spent years, they really don’t know English at all. 

In fact if anything, the last couple times I was in Asia, seems there’s a switch already afoot, toward using Mandarin Chinese as a business language.  That was certainly the case in Korea (which I admit I’ve only been to once) as well as in Thailand to a degree.  And this is even before China has quite reached the status of a major economic power again, although they’re fast rising.

Actually, the most curious thing I found last year was the surprising prevalence of German in many Asian countries.  As far as Western languages go, English of course remains the one they most commonly learn (although French still retains some currency in former French SE Asian colonies such as Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia).  Germany has never had a colonial presence in E/SE Asia, but quite a few people esp. in China, Japan, Korea and even India could speak it.  I inquired about that a couple times and it seems this is a combination of 1. Germany rising to become the leader of an economically powerful European Union, with the EU perhaps soon exceeding the USA in economic size and trade ties, 2. a sort of general fascination with Germany in East Asia stemming from their awe at German classical music, German scientists and inventors and so forth and 3. the reason that surprised me most-- German is easier for many of them to learn than English, has something to do with the structure of German grammar having more similarities to many Asian languages than English does, plus German is *much* easier to spell and pronounce.

I think sometimes Americans err by claiming that English is “easy to learn,” when it *definitely* is not, at least as far as East Asians are concerned.  They have enormous difficulty learning English, and the inconsistent pronunciation of our language causes them tremendous difficulty, which is part of why many of them are gravitating toward German instead.

This was a great and useful article!  It’s long been well-known that “English Only” was a code word used by the white-supremacist groups as yet another racist attack, this time on brown people whose ethnicity is mainly Native American or African, with only SOME Caucasian thrown in.

That’s because they think descendants of Northern Europeans are still Numero Uno when in fact they are nothing but racist ignorant schmucks. These are people who see spaghetti, pizza, bagels, tacos and sushi as strange, awful “foreign” foods.

It’s refreshing to see that Hispanic immigrants are just like all the immigrants before them: You learn some English, your kids speak both English and the mama-loschen and the grand-kids speak English with a few old-country words.

In other words, the whole “problem” doesn’t exist, and never existed.  Historically, EVERY generation of Americans had a group that wanted to stop any more immigration.  Every time they’ve lost and America got a fresh injection of people believing the American Dream.  I have and have had colleagues from China, India, Viet Nam, Peru, Cuba, Laos, Afghanistan, Nigeria and Sri Lanka, who struggle with English as they work like donkeys to make it here.  And their kids speak English like they were native-born Americans.  Because they ARE!

Despite that, I’m struggling to learn Spanish (with Latin American pronuciation, not the Castillian lisp) because it’s the language of 300 or more millions of our neighbors. It’s also a beautiful language, and there are many, many nations I want to visit where that’s what they speak.

P.S.

P.S.
As a courtesy to the people of my chosen country I am learning their language.  It really gets me a lot of thumbs up and smiles.  It also helps my teaching when I can speak both languages to the students.  No Parrots in my classes.

#117884 by Tim Krause on 12/04 at 6:48 am
(Unregistered commenter)

When most of our immigramt relatives arrived 100-200 years ago, America was a land of unutilized resources.  Today, we are paying dearly for the limited remaining resources.  We do not need an increase to our population, today our resources are dwindling. 

WTF?  Are you serious?  Just what did the 20 - 30 million natives of this land use (before we killed most of them)?

On another note: As a teacher of English in Asia; I can say English is alive if not well.  As a living language, English is very difficult for most Asians to learn.  However, because English is the language of commerce, it is the world’s language of choice.  The average Asian is very poor in English (China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Lao, and Cambodia (Kampuchea).  The Pinoy’s (Filipinos) aren’t too bad and better than most.  I find it laughable anybody is worried about immigrants destroying “our” language; “we” are doing a far better job of destroying our own language than any foreigner could ever hope to do.  Even with increasing numbers of college and university graduates; corporate executives complain bitterly about the abysmal level of reading comprehension, communication ability and writing skills (lack of).  The “legality issue” seems, in some instances, to be an excuse for closeted racism…I don’t buy it.

PS, MS is 100% correct. I’ve just finished an absolutely excellent series/curriculm on these issues, and it all boils down to this. Which is why I’m reposting it. And, 1drees made the SAME excellent point. It’s very much about class/racism, and has been since the beginning of this nation’s history. And ALWAYS, in every single ‘stage’ of this, it’s generally the lowest of the Caucasean ‘class’ that is the most racist. Poor whites have ALWAYS hated the alleged immigrants more than the white ‘elites’.

On the other hand, lets please keep in mind that FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, this nation and it’s ‘settlers’ had ALWAYS been adamant that they wanted ONLY a WHITE society. Why do you think the Natives were so mercilessly wiped out?

#117910 by MS on 12/04 at 9:28 am

It seems, at times, that the immigration issue, whether illegal or not, is really all about racisim and an upper class loathing of the lower classes.  We are all immigrants with the exception of Native Americans and many Hispanic peoples were in this country long before a lot of the Caucasions in some parts of the country. 

Humans seem to need to feel superior to some group they deem less worthy, to feel good about themselves.  This has been a part of every society I’ve ever read about.  The early immigrant populations in this country were no different.  Those who had been here for a few years longer despised those who had recently come “over”.  It doesn’t say much for a society that continues to repeat the same mistakes throughout it’s history.  There doesn’t seem to be much hope.

We’re All Immigrants

Oh really?  Have you mentioned that to Tao Walker lately?

#117952 by voice of truth

• Today, we go out of our way to ensure that English does not even have to be learnt.  Whole classrooms are engaged in teaching children in a foreign language (Spanish in places like Florida, Portugese in areas of Massachussetts, etc).  Driver’s license exams in a foreign language (even though traffic signs are in English, figure that one), voting booths, packaging, etc.

VOT

No disrespect intended, but I think it is you who are off the mark, and I suspect that it’s probably not your fault, though this WAS in fact the point of the article. I remember that there was in fact a time when things like the Driver’s License exams were administered in languages other than English, and I had the same problem with it THEN, as you do. Why would they do that, when the signs are in English? Or, are they? The basics certainly are. Stop, Go, yield, etc, etc. HOWEVER, that was a LONGGGG time ago, at least in my state. That would be primarily California, (my home) and Texas, (where I lived for nearly 2 decades). And, for THOSE two states at least, they’ve LONG since dispensed with that. The exams are administered in ENGLISH! PERIOD!

That’s NOT to say that one must necessarily KNOW English these days, in order to drive. English is my only language, and yet I have driven throughout Europe on a number of occasions. I didn’t have a problem. Now here in most of the US, the signs are very universal, so that one need not have to know how to read ANY language. Most of them are accompanied by pictorial sorts of images, that we have (sometimes without even realizing it) incorporated into our understanding, over time. The same can be said of traffic signs, since they have individual shapes and colors. So, odd as it may seem, there’s really no need to give these exams in other languages any longer.

That’s one of the reasons why it amazes me that people become so unglued about the idea of providing immigrants, (legal or otherwise) with drivers’ licenses. Drivers’ licenses have NEVER been accepted as ‘proof of citizenship’ ANYWHERE. A DL is only a license to operate a vehicle. But NOW, it also serves the purpose of making sure that whomever possesses one, actually KNOWS how to drive, and knows the rules of the road, and is also required to maintain insurance, in order to maintain the license. Not to mention the fact that it subjects us ALL (including these alleged ‘undocumented’ people) to a GIGANTIC data base. So, all of the complaints about them having DL’s, are simply an hysterical response to a myth. If they really wanted to ‘keep track’ of them, they’d give ‘em the licenses.

But, just like these myths about them ‘not wanting to learn English” go, such is the myth about that. And, it’s a myth about the welfare as well. Living most of my life in states with larger than average Hispanic populations, I get tired of hearing about all of these services that they get. If they’re not legal, they don’t get the stuff. Maybe there was a time when they did, but not now.

I won’t deny that many MORE undocumented workers are here now, then there were in my youth. But, there are many reasons for that, and the blame ultimately falls on the US. They would not be here, if we weren’t THERE. It’s that simple. Nor would they be here, if the corps weren’t hiring them. Meantime, I think this is much closer to the real issue:

• What’s different today, Alba says, is that bilingualism among adult Hispanics—the ability to speak both languages, with Spanish sometimes spoken at home—seems to be more prevalent than it was among the descendants of European immigrants.

That’s really what annoys people. Most of them speak English, and speak it just fine. Yet, they’ve been wise enough to maintain their own language, which most Euros didn’t do, because they felt it would make them less ‘American’. And, who asked for all of those menus in Spanish anyway? The CORPS.

Sure wish I had learned a 2nd or 3rd language, or at least kept my own dialect.

#118384 by Davidovitch on 12/05: “English is a minor language-- Hindi predominates....  but try using your English in Spain, Italy, even France-- and you’ll encounter blank stares...”

Oh, yes, there are some arrogant French, etc etc. Especially if you are in their country, they will turn their nose up at you and pretend they don’t understand - but its a pretence. If you are from the USA or England, they most probably won’t like you very much anyway.....

I’m not saying that English is a preferred language elsewhere, though. Why should it be? People will always tend to use their first language, even if it is a local dialect and not their national language.

“I personally have no problem with Spanish becoming this country’s de jure second language”

I agree, esp. because of our nation’s history.  Latinos have a special place in US history that makes them more like the native and African-Americans than Ellis Island immigrants- the USA went to war and seized half of Mexico’s Territory in the Mexico-USA War in 1848. Similar w/ Florida and the Spanish-American War- Latinos founded the cities and Spanish flourished as an official language.

In fact, Spanish precedes English in USA-- both St. Augustine and Santa Fe precede Jamestown. The laws and agreements after the Mexican War gave Spanish equality to English in Southwestern states like Arizona and California, as well as in Florida.  Just as Hawaiian is co-official with English in Hawaii. So in fact, all of us in a place like Arizona or California, actually must speak Spanish.

So Marie, while I agree on your general point here (that Latinos should not be feared), I disagree with the implication that somehow, any loss of Spanish over the generations would be a good thing. It wouldn’t. Latinos are very different from immigrants who streamed in from e.g. Italy or Armenia, and came as guests- the Latinos preceded the Anglos here and they, and the Spanish language, have every right to co-exist with Anglo culture and the English language in the public sphere.

Besides, the tendency now is for Spanish to be maintained among 3rd and 4th generation Latinos and *even* for higher-generation Latinos who may have lost it, to relearn it.  Part of the reason Latinos lost Spanish before (i.e., this group of 3rd-generation Latinos) is that speaking Spanish was scorned in 1960’s and 1970’s-- thus, today’s group of 3rd-generation Latinos, descended from those who came much earlier, were not encouraged to speak it. 

Now, it’s the opposite-- Latinos have a powerful incentive not only for cultural heritage but also economic advancement, due to changed demographics and business climate of the Southwest especially, to maintain Spanish at a high level.  As they should.

“Most educated Chinese now speak English as well as their own national language… Its the same with India and Pakistan.”

Umm, no they don’t.  I’ve worked for years in 2 of those countries and in China, the vast majority of the educated people do not speak English well, if at all. Even in the hotels, I had to carry a Chinese phrasebook. Same in India-- despite the British colonial history there in the 1800’s, only about 3% of the population speaks English with actual proficiency, there are about a dozen languages with more speakers than English. Hindi in the north, and Tamil in the south totally dominate over English. Even in the realm of newspapers, magazines, books and computer resources (which tend to be used by educated elites), English is a minor language-- Hindi predominates.

“In the Philippines, [they speak] English along with Tagalog and their local dialects.”

No, Douglas-- I’ve worked in Manila as well, they *do not* speak English there. They study it in school and there are some who know it, but it’s not widely spoken. Especially on Luzon, almost every conversation is in Filipino.

“And not forgetting that Europe has also embraced English thanks not to the British but to the USA after WW2”

Sort of. You’ll encounter many English-speakers in the Netherlands or Norway, but try using your English in Spain, Italy, even France-- and you’ll encounter blank stares. Germans are better at it but even there, it’s not a working language and you’ll have to learn German to function. Even in the Netherlands, they almost never use English with each other, they use Dutch-- and if you want to actually stay there, you’ll have to learn Dutch, they won’t let you get by with English.  A friend of mine from Canada found this out to his dismay, needless to say he signed up for Dutch crash courses awfully quick!

I don’t doubt that English will remain an important language, Mr. Chalmers; the British and American empires spread it worldwide, whether they meant to or not. But the world changes, and so do countries. Better to view change as simple change and not as encroachment, wouldn’t you think, sir?

#118097 by Paul_GA on 12/05: “...I personally have no problem with Spanish becoming this country’s de jure second language, as French is in Canada; the Canadians get along just fine as a bilingual nation...”

Its interesting to note just how many nations do have English as a second or third language instead of just viewing this as an encroachment upon English.

Most educated Chinese now speak English as well as their own national language and a local dialect. Its the same with India and Pakistan. They have taken advantage of trade and cultural ties (and past invasions, uhh) to make the most of English.

In the Philippines, Spanish was once the language of the invaders but was supplanted and replaced by English which they now speak along with Tagalog and their local dialects. And not forgetting that Europe has also embraced English thanks not to the British but to the USA after WW2.......

I personally have no problem with Spanish becoming this country’s de jure second language, as French is in Canada; the Canadians get along just fine as a bilingual nation, so why not the USA?

Two things already said which I fully agree with: Ms. Cocco says we have more serious challenges to contend with than America’s national language (such as ending America’s debilitating imperialism---the drive towards national exhaustion due to imperial overstretch), and Mr. Chalmers says that by century’s end, Mandarin Chinese may well be the most important language on earth, not English (whether British or American).

Tell you what you can do, in order to “save” English---become as fluent in English as you can. In particular, write it as skillfully as you can. Read extensively, and apply what you read to what you write.

This whole essay is off the mark.  My grandparents were the same as Maria’s parents (same age as well).  They came from Italy, spoke Italian at home as children, learned English in school, and did not pass on the Italian to their children.

The difference today is that, outside of their small neighborhood, my grandparents had not choice but to speak English.  Today, we go out of our way to ensure that English does not even have to be learnt.  Whole classrooms are engaged in teaching children in a foreign language (Spanish in places like Florida, Portugese in areas of Massachussetts, etc).  Driver’s license exams in a foreign language (even though traffic signs are in English, figure that one), voting booths, packaging, etc.

Many immigrant groups have given words from their native tongues to the English language.  In fact, that is what diversity is about, and how America became great through the assimilation of its people.

What they have not done, and what diversity is not about, is about the absolute lack of assimilation happening in the Hispanic community today.

The difference now is that where Americans once thought that only English - or “American” - only existed, they will soon begin to assume that there is only English and Spanish, uhh. They will still be as ignorant as before, only bi-lingually so.

But that is not exactly a “war on English” which is actually being waged by English-speakers against themselves the world over. The English language is not merely changing but is degrading in some respects.

Use of the word “that” instead of “which” or “who” has become endemic as a kind of intellectual laziness. “That” was never intended to be used as a substitute and especially for the personal “who” but that is exactly what is happening.

In doing so, it is strangely de-humanizing. Perhaps English is on its way to becoming a failed language, uhh? By the end of this century, it will be Mandarin, not Spanish, which will be the dominant language, anyway. And, in 2100+, take your pick from Hindi and Tamil..........

More fears of a dwindling caucasion majority.