On NIE
+
On point 10
-----------
ZIONIST’S spying in and on AMERICA AND AMERICANS.

Fox News: Israeli Spyring
Filed under:
• USA
• Jewry, “Israel”, Zionism…

May 28, 2003 - 11:36

It turns out that Israel has had a potential wiretap on every phone in America for years, along with the ability to monitor and record who any person is calling, anywhere in America; information of great value even if one does not listen to the calls themselves. Amdocs, Inc., the company which subcontracts billing and directory services for phone companies around the world, including 90 percent of American phone companies, is owned by Israeli interests. Yet another company, Comverse Infosys, is suspected of having built a “back door” into the equipment permanently installed into the phone system that allows instant eavesdropping by law enforcement agencies on any phone in America. This includes yours.
Fox News, alone of all the media, actually ran the story as a four part broadcast, and put the story up on its web site. Then, without explanation, Fox News erased the story from their web site and have never mentioned it again._
Part 1 at YouTube
Part 2 at YouTube
Part 2 at YouTube
Part 4 at YouTube
BRIT HUME, HOST: It has been more than 16 years since a civilian working for the Navy was charged with passing secrets to Israel. Jonathan Pollard pled guilty to conspiracy to commit espionage and is serving a life sentence. At first, Israeli leaders claimed Pollard was part of a rogue operation, but later took responsibility for his work. 

CARL CAMERON, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Since September 11, more than 60 Israelis have been arrested or detained, either under the new patriot anti-terrorism law, or for immigration violations. A handful of active Israeli military were among those detained, according to investigators, who say some of the detainees also failed polygraph questions when asked about alleged surveillance activities against and in the United States.
There is no indication that the Israelis were involved in the 9-11 attacks, but investigators suspect that they Israelis may have gathered intelligence about the attacks in advance, and not shared it. A highly placed investigator said there are “tie-ins.” But when asked for details, he flatly refused to describe them, saying, “evidence linking these Israelis to 9-11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It’s classified information.”
Fox News has learned that one group of Israelis, spotted in North Carolina recently, is suspected of keeping an apartment in California to spy on a group of Arabs who the United States is also investigating for links to terrorism. Numerous classified documents obtained by Fox News indicate that even prior to September 11, as many as 140 other Israelis had been detained or arrested in a secretive and sprawling investigation into suspected espionage by Israelis in the United States.
Investigators from numerous government agencies are part of a working group that’s been compiling evidence since the mid ‘90s. These documents detail hundreds of incidents in cities and towns across the country that investigators say, “may well be an organized intelligence gathering activity.”
The first part of the investigation focuses on Israelis who say they are art students from the University of Jerusalem and Bazala Academy. They repeatedly made contact with U.S. government personnel, the report says, by saying they wanted to sell cheap art or handiwork.
Documents say they, “targeted and penetrated military bases.” The DEA, FBI and dozens of government facilities, and even secret offices and unlisted private homes of law enforcement and intelligence personnel. The majority of those questioned, “stated they served in military intelligence, electronic surveillance intercept and or explosive ordinance units.”

.........

As for the rest google it!

RE: #119119 by karim29007

Don’t know where you get your data but it must be out of the fiction section. I have a suspicion that you are related to 1dress5 as you both seem to cite the same unsubstantiated, fictitious lies invented by those seeking to skew the facts and distort reality. You do yourself a great disservice this way for by choosing to ignore the real history; you are doomed to repeat it.

Here is a better book for you:
http://www.amazon.com/Case-Israel-Alan-Dershowitz/dp/0 471679526/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=11973 12288&sr=8-1

Being that you are so willing to buy into any conspiracy theory, I have a bridge for sale as well…

RE:  posting by #119119 by karim29007 on 12/09 at 1:56 pm
(14 comments total)

On NIE,
Zionism
And the PROTOCOLS, ………

“Cure the cause, the cancerous cells of symptoms will disappear.”

=================================
=============================

Wow, have you got their number.  You left some things off of that list, too.  Dem rotten Zionists.

Those Zionists started 19 Crusades. the 19th was World War I.  Why? Only to build Israel.

The Arabs who were involved in 9/11 cooperated with the Zionists, actually.  It was a cooperation they gave them the perfect excuse to denounce all Arabs.

What’s the diff in adding on more fictional items. eh?

You can still buy the bridge I have for sale in Brooklyn, by the way.

Ernest Canning on 12/09 at 10:56 am
(1291 comments total)

Sort of underscores the absurdity of the Bush/Cheney rationalization offered to justify their intended regime-changing efforts, doesn’t it?

Yup.
According to them, they already have that right under the “Unitary Presidency” fascist dogma.  Now all they have to do is get us lemmings to buy into it.

Ref.: Jason on 12/09 at 2:40 pm

Thank you.

On NIE,
Zionism
And the PROTOCOLS, ………

“Cure the cause, the cancerous cells of symptoms will disappear.”

-------------------------
In the year 1844, Benjamin Disraeli, whose real name was Israel, and who was a “ damped,” or baptized ZIONIST, published his novel, Coningsy, in which occurs this ominous passage:

“The world is governed by very different personages from what
is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes”.

And he went on to show that these personages were all ZIONISTS.

Now that ALL THESE DOCUMENTS has brought to the light of day, those secret Protocols, all of us may clearly see the hidden personages specified by Disraeli at work “behind the scenes” of many regimes.

This revelation entails on all people the grave responsibility of examining and revising their attitude towards the Race and ENTITY which boasts of its survival over the rest of humanity.

The word “ Agentur”, which means the whole body of agents and agencies has been made use of by the Elders over and over again in the PROTOCOLS.
Implying whether members of the ZIONIST’S ENTITY or their “Gentile tools”.

At this moment I have no intention of referring to the “BRONZE AGE” continuous documents discoveries with the ink not yet fully dried, and boring everyone.

Let’s have look at the today ‘s realities of implementation of the said PROTOCOLS and “Agentur” within our societies that seems surreal and unbelievable but regrettably true.

1- The consolidated ZIONIST’S CONSORTIUM with AIPAC as the CEO.
2- The 2% ethnic minority whom control every aspect of American’s way of life.
3- The strangulation of so called “foreign policy”. More than 90% of “high value and sensitive” official appointees are on the AIPAC approval list.
4- Total control of main stream media directly or indirectly by utilizing black-mail, coercion or straight forward check-book “journalism”.
5- Putting Americans in the harms way to do their dirty and immoral works, again and again, exactly according to the PROTOCOLS and hence the loss of thousands of American lives and more than a million of Iraqis’ , so far.
6- The daily genocide in Palestine. (During the last 3-weeks their water supply has been cut-off with the fuel and cooking oil deliveries being confiscated at the check points. The Nazis turn in their graves.)
7- The cantonisation and break-up of Iraq, once a sovereign nation and the region hence a perpetual conflict and bloodshed therefore easy manipulation and robbing their natural resources to the benefit of the Zionists.
8- Preparing the ground work to repeat and apply the same application to IRAN.(I guess we all aware of the recent NIE report, its back-ground and its future implication.( the Zionist entity’s defence minister Ehud Barks rejected the said NIE as fraud!)
9- The blatant lies and denial that the Zionist entity has no “nuclear weapon.” The pile-up of more than 300 nuclear war-heads in Tel-Aviv, and other places including their installations in the German-made Sub-marines’. well , may be they are be used just for the rainy days!
10- More than 80% of the Spies and Traitors against the U.S. has been ZIONISTS.
11- The non-stop aggression against the neighbouring countries. 
12- The implementation of – [Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations.] policy.
And the list seems to be non-ending perhaps as long as the Protocols.

No doubt the “gutter language and slurring” will be followed after this posting by those ”jog-heads” whom trying to avoid the truth and the serious consequences of their evil-doing deeds.

However just to remind them that illiteracy and ignorance is neither an option nor a blessing.

ITW, if a high school student was able to produce a paper on how to build a nuclear bomb, and then the Bush/Cheney standard for justifying a pre-emptive attack on another nation because they supposedly have the intent to obtain the knowledge necessary to build a bomb, would that mean that Bush and Cheney would have the right to bomb all U.S. high schools to prevent another student from coming forward with a “how to build a bomb” paper?

Sort of underscores the absurdity of the Bush/Cheney rationalization offered to justify their intended regime-changing efforts, doesn’t it?

Preident Bush is against anyone having knowledge on anything.Do not worry you dummies keep reading your Bible and I will talk to God and figure out what we should do.If I cannot figure out what to do I will ask God’s little helper my VP The angel Dick Cheyney.Iraq has the GNP of Sweeden.It is a minor nothing that is capitalizing on our stupidity in the middle east.I guess Iran should not be concerned when they have US troops poised on two borders and a President who calls you part of the axis of evil.We have to make it clear to people the only country who can effect the middle east with faulty intelligence is us.They almost got us into another war for oil if it were not for some real Americans in the intelligence agencies who told the President if the N.I.E. summary did not get out they would leak it and take the consequences for it.Iran is not my leading candidate for country of the year but all this rhetoric about a country that realizes they are next on our oil hit list and is trying to protect itself the best they can is ridiculous.Pull all our troops out of the middle east and show the region we are not there just to steal oil and I am not saying peace will break out tomorrow but we will have taken a huge step towards it.I now know the exact meaning of “The Big Lie” that the Nazi’s used so effectively in the lead up to ww2.

What I find ironic is that in th recent past (a month?), I’m not sure but i read a news article about an Israeli just released from prison after 18 years. His crime? Blowing the whistle on the Israeli Nuclear weapons development. By now I imagine Israel has at least a hundred such weapons.

The Iranians are hemmed in by countries on all sides that might go extremist at any time. Syria, Israel, Pakistan, Egypt and of course us. Now why would they feel the need to protect themselves given the history of Western involvment in their country for the last 40-50 years.

Never-the-less I think we have demonstrated to the world the total lack of respect given countries with such weaponry.

About 15 or 20 years ago a brilliant hish school student wrote a paper on how to build a nuclear device for something like $2000--but that didn’t include the plutonium you would need.

Several governments tried to contact him before the US military stepped in. He was de-briefed but had done nothing wrong.

My point? It’s not nearly as mysterious as everyone makes out to build a device.. you just need the fissionable material.

THAT should be far scarier than an Iranian, Pakistani or Korean bomb.

Marshall,

The NIE report has nothing for evidence other than “determined”...so what do you want to do with that word?  Make it jus ad bellum if someone is “determined”?

Marshall,

The NIE report has nothing for evidence other than “determined”...so what do you want to do with that word?  Make it jus ad bellum it someone is “determined”?

Why anyone would be surprosed by this development I can’t say. Remember that guy Saddam Hussein? The man who was holding onto harsh but secular governance in Iraq?

In a recent article in my home town paper Moan Charen an apparent “professional writer, submitted an article in which a she attacked Ron Paul and his followers as “Neo-fascists”.

The real message in her article was to sway any “soft” Republicans away from Paul back into the mainstream Republican party. To do so she stated that when Paul supporters used the phrase “Neo-Con” they were speaking in code. She said “Neo-con” was really code speak for “Jew”. She also spoke with disdain of Ron Paul referring to “Dark Forces” in our country.

She invited anyone who wanted to contact her, they could at http://www.creators.com . I went to that site and found it to be an agency representing many right-wing writers and entertainers. People like Robert Novack and Bill O’Reilly. I found her location to be ironic when considering the possibility of there being “Dark forces”

I would encourage everybody to go to the site mentioned and sound off to Mona Charen.

I would like to see Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul given as much monetary and voluntary support as possible. Lets get back to a time (did it ever exist?) when the government was representative of the people and not just hacks for the Military/Industrial complex, Multi-National corporations and big energy.

Well of course their ability to enrich Uraniun, and the knowledge gained from their civilian program put the Iranians closer to developing a bomb -if they so choose. The NIE does not gloss over this point, it just states that they have not been developing a bomb during the past four years.

So we still have problems. Problems that Iran, a country that we don’t trust, and who seeks to become the regional power in a part of the world we wish to dominate, could fairly quickly become a Nuclear weapons state. Problems that our very belligerant actions may well be the catalyst for Iran, or several other nuclear capable countries to choose to become nuclear weapons states. This is not a problem that can be solved by bombing, or sabre rattling. There are something like fifty countries who if they made the decision could quickly acquire Nweapons. Why are we so obsessed with this one?

So how dangerous would a nuclear armed Iran be? Would they be any more of a threat than China? Would they be a greater threat than Pakistan? We never tried to solve those problems by bombing. Why do we insist on keeping it on the table in the case of Iran? And don’t claim we are doing for Israels sake. The Israeli citizens at least do not favor such an attack. If there is any logic, beyond pure Iran is evil nonsense behind this obsession, it must have something to do with our desire to militarily control the worlds oil-heartland.

ON Monday the United States intelligence community issued what everyone agrees was blockbuster news: a report stating that in the autumn of 2003, Iran halted its nuclear weapons program. The National Intelligence Estimate has been heralded as a courageous act of independence by the intelligence agencies, and praised by both parties for showing a higher quality of spy work than earlier assessments.

In fact, the report contains the same sorts of flaws that we have learned to expect from our intelligence agency offerings. It, like the report in 2002 that set up the invasion of Iraq, is both misleading and dangerous.

During the past year, a period when Iran’s weapons program was supposedly halted, the government has been busy installing some 3,000 gas centrifuges at its plant at Natanz. These machines could, if operated continuously for about a year, create enough enriched uranium to provide fuel for a bomb. In addition, they have no plausible purpose in Iran’s civilian nuclear effort. All of Iran’s needs for enriched uranium for its energy programs are covered by a contract with Russia.

Iran is also building a heavy water reactor at its research center at Arak. This reactor is ideal for producing plutonium for nuclear bombs, but is of little use in an energy program like Iran’s, which does not use plutonium for reactor fuel. India, Israel and Pakistan have all built similar reactors — all with the purpose of fueling nuclear weapons. And why, by the way, does Iran even want a nuclear energy program, when it is sitting on an enormous pool of oil that is now skyrocketing in value? And why is Iran developing long-range Shahab missiles, which make no military sense without nuclear warheads to put on them?

For years these expensive projects have been viewed as evidence of Iran’s commitment to nuclear weapons. Why aren’t they still? The answer is that the new report defines “nuclear weapons program” in a ludicrously narrow way: it confines it to to enriching uranium at secret sites or working on a nuclear weapon design. But the halting of its secret enrichment and weapon design efforts in 2003 proves only that Iran made a tactical move. It suspended work that, if discovered, would unambiguously reveal intent to build a weapon. It has continued other work, crucial to the ability to make a bomb, that it can pass off as having civilian applications.

That work includes the centrifuges at Natanz, which bring Iran closer to a nuclear weapon every day — two to seven years away. To assert, as the report does, that these centrifuges are “civilian,” and not part of Iran’s weapons threat, is grossly misleading.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/06/opinion/06milhollin. html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Re:  Ravings by:

#118690 by lastdaywatchers on 12/07 at 10:34 am

Is this now a thread on religious insanity?

RE Post by
#118918 by karim29007 on 12/08 at 10:10 am
=============================
======================
The protocols are ‘ fiction ‘.  Like Santa, Cinderella, Bugs Bunny, etc.

Look up the definitin of fiction. I still think you’re under the age of 16 or 17 years of age.

But you got to get with it with it and stop promoting f-i-c-t-i-o-n.

Otherwise you will in time be buying that bridge in Brooklyn.

Protocols…
---------
ref.:Howard.

My previous post is above your head.

Seek some help from your chief rabbi as soon as possible, if not, read talmud!

Ignorance is no longer a bless.

America’s Dysfunctional Intelligence Agencies

The above headline is currently on the front page of TruthDig, another report that commentators there love to agree with.

Come over here and goodness gracious, the NIE is accepted as gospel.  Know what I mean.

Shows some people’s nefarious agendas are showing.

Good point Non Credo & Paolo, and let’s not forget that in directing the development of a new generations of U.S. nuclear weapons Bush, himself, is the one who is actually violating the NPT.

We live in a world of disinformation.  The old adage:  “Believe nothing of what you read or hear and only half of what you see” is as true today as ever.  Today, all we can rely on are the facts as we believe we know them.

Iran has spent vast sums of money on its uranium enrichment program----why?  If Iran wanted nuclear power for peaceful purposes it could have acquired the nuclear fuel much more quickly and economically.  Iran didn’t build a vast array of sites and install 3000 centrifuges for the Hell of it----it wants a nuclear weapon pure and simple----WAKE UP PEOPLE!

RE:  Post by #118879 by karim29007 on 12/08 at 6:11 am

What is so remarkable about those sayings that you put up since they are complete total fiction.?

Ah, that you believe in them is ok, nutty as they are.

But listen, I have a bridge that is for Sale.  Big bridge in Brooklyn.. Ok ? Not much down.. Great deal, though.

How about it?

U.S. Intelligence: Iran’s Nuclear Program Still a Threat

- Pam Benson

U.S. deputy intelligence chief Donald Kerr told a House intelligence subcommittee Thursday that the National Intelligence Estimate “did not in any way suggest that Iran was benign for the future.” He said Iranians continue work on what he called the “most important component” of any future program, a uranium enrichment plant. Kerr also said Iran continues to develop a medium-range ballistic missile, which could be used as the delivery system for nuclear weapons. (CNN)

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/06/iran.nie/

THE PROTOCOLS
-------------
The presumption is highly accurate and logical.
The Protocols have been issued, or reissued several times.

Stating at the First Zionist Congress held at Basle in 1897 under the presidency of the
Father of Modern Zionism, Theodore Herzl.

The present successor of Herzl, as leader of the Zionist movement, Dr. Weizmann, quoted one of these sayings at the send-off banquet given to Chief Rabbi Hertz on October 6, 1920.

The Chief Rabbi was on the point of leaving for his Empire tour of
H.R.H., the Prince of Wales.
And this is the “saying” of the Sages which Dr. Weizmann quoted: “A beneficent protection which God has instituted in the life of the ZIONIST is that He has dispersed him all over the world.” (Jewish Guardian, Oct. 8, 1920.)

Now compare this with the last clause of but one of Protocol XI.

“God has granted to us, His Chosen People, the gift of dispersion, and from this, which appears to all eyes to be our weakness, has come forth all our strength, which has now brought us to the threshold of sovereignty over all the world.”

The remarkable correspondence between these passages proves several things.
1- It proves that the Learned Elders exist.
2- It proves that Dr. Weizmann knows all about them.
3- It proves that the desire for a “National Home” in Palestine is only camouflage and an infinitesimal part of the ZIONIST’s real object.
4- It proves that the of the ZIONISTS have no intention of settling in Palestine or any separate country, and that their annual prayer that they may all meet “Next Year in Jerusalem” is merely a piece of their characteristic make believe.
5- It also demonstrates that the ZIONISTS are now a world menace, and that the ALL OTHER races will have to domicile them permanently out of Europe.

Once again the pathetic fallacy of these uneducated reactionaries whom “slurrism “ Is their only refuge without a fig leaf, makes one’s wonder who is their life support!!

The PROTOCOLS ARE ON COURSE AND ON AUTO-PILOT.

Bush may be crazy but he is not really stupid as some like to think--and I don’t know how anyone can be surprised he lied about Iran--he has pretty much lied about everything---my view of Bush--beginning with the 2000 election--if this man was speaking--it was at best wrong--or a worst a lie!!!

#118646 by Ernest Canning on 12/07 at 7:42 am

Interesting, Ernest - I’m curious just how you interpret his statement then.  Does it mean nukes were only against their religion after 2003?

#118619 by Goffredo on 12/07 at 5:33 am

I don’t know how to respond to your posts.  You claimed that the recent NIE showed no past evidence of an Iranian nuclear weapons program, and I quoted you from the section that determined that there was.  The word “determined” was nowhere in my post.  I’d ask you to clarify but I think you’re as confused as I am.

#118780 by karim29007 on 12/07 at 5:00 pm
(9 comments total)

THE PROTOCOLS

==================================

I know the Protocols have been discredit as false piece of goods long long time ago. Been revived in some Islamic countries and has been almost a top seller in those environs.

I would not think that in this century anyone would buy into them outside of that area.  But here in living technicolor is a dingbat named ‘ Karim ‘ who puts it up as something worthy.

Yet he’ll scream bloody “ God is great”, if a cartoon of Muhammed is printed or verbally assaulted in the media.

He oughta’ be embarrased to death to give belief to one of the world’s most vicious pieces of fiction.

He’s probably 13 or 14 years of age. But that’s a poor excuse. Of course it shows how some children are raised in these times.  Imagine.

THE PROTOCOL
-----------

These Protocols give the substance of addresses delivered to the
innermost circle of the Rulers of Zion. They reveal the converted plan of
action of the ZIONIST’S Nation developed through the ages and edited by the Elders themselves up to date.

Parts and summaries of the plan have been published from time to time during many years as the secrets of the Elders have leaked out.

The claim of the slurring zionists that the Protocols are forgeries is in itself an admission of their genuineness, for they never attempt to answer the facts corresponding to the threats which the Protocols contain, and, indeed,
the correspondence between prophecy and fulfillment is too glaring to be set aside or obscured.

This the REACTIONARY ZIONISTS ILLITERATES well know and therefore evade.

karim29007 on 12/07 at 5:00 pm
(9 comments total)

08-12-2007: ON AUTO-PILOT AND ON COURSE.

HENRY FORD? HENRY FORD???? He was a BLATANT anti-semite who hated Jews from the day he was born.  He believed and published ANYTHING negative about Jews because he WANTED to believe it.

No historian in America, no legitimate historian in the world would cite or accept Henry Ford as a source.  He might have been a talented inventor but he sure as HELL was no scholar.

There never was such a conference, there never was such an organization. It was a crude forgery by the Tsarist Secret Police in Russia, to give justification to pogroms by Cossacks against the Jewish shtetls to divert the ignorant populace from who was REALLY raping them.

These days, only ignorant neo-nazis and badly-educated fanatics from the Islamic world are stupid enough to accept this piece of shit as authentic.  Henry Ford was just such a piece of shit, too.

Since you defend it, you too are a piece of shit.

Wow, Chancellor Bush using the Big Lie a second time about a Middle East Islamic state having weapons of mass destruction and this time, gets caught BEFORE he can start a war. This is really a shame since this was counted on by the majority of this site’s posters as fodder for their anti-Zionist tirades as much as it was for Herr W as his validation for starting WW III. It’s moments like this that I miss Godsend, who would find some way to blame this on a Jew.
The real issue is that the CIA is a cluster f..k. How many more times is this fascist despot of ours going to be given just the intel he wants, no matter how wrong, and either put us in an endless genocide or bring us to brink of a nuclear faceoff? This is the best information that the most modern black on black torture prisons in the world can come up with?
I have an idea: DUE PROCESS OF LAW. First, the information in the Wall Street Journal and foreign press is likely more accurate than the CIA’s classified documents. Second, we were getting more accurate information back in the old days when we weren’t snatching people off the street and throwing them into secret prisons, locking them away for years, and torturing them. Then destroying any evidence it happened. Call me old school, I just don’t think it’s worth nuking the world over a non-existent nuclear weapon program.

Look--I’m no great fan of Iran, but fair is fair.

Are they too theocratic--sure. (Although I’ve met and talked with people who went to Iran and said it really wasn’t that bad. Western women who visit Iran are requested [or required] to wear a hijab--a scarf covering their hair.)

Having said this, I say in Iran’s defense:

1) They have invaded no foreign nation in over 200 years. The USA cannot make such a claim, nor can Israel.

2) They have every right to enrich uranium under the NPT. The argument that they don’t “need” to enrich uranium is specious: they have the right, and they don’t have to answer to anyone except the IAEA, which has turned up exactly ZERO evidence of a nuclear weapons program in years of intrusive inspections.

3) Iran has been the victim of the most outrageous interference by the President’s private army, aka the CIA. Their democratically-elected, Time Magazine “Man of the Year” honoree, Mohammad Mossadegh, was forced out of office in a CIA-engineered coup in 1954. The President’s private army, aka the CIA, installed the bloody, brutal regime of “Shah-an-Shah (king of kings), Light of the Aryans,” aka Mohammed Reza Pahlavi. Pahlavi, with CIA guidance, established SAVAK, a brutal secret police known for particularly gruesome torture methods.

4) Iran was invaded by Iraq under Saddam, when Saddam was our favorite Satrap in the Middle East, in the 1980’s. A million human beings died in that senseless conflict. Thanks, CIA! (Incidentally, Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons in that conflict, weapons supplied by the President’s private army--the CIA.)

I conclude that, despite the fact I disagree with the Iranian theocracy, I completely understand their viewpoint. They have been truthful about their non-pursuit of nuclear weapons; the Bush Administration has been proved yet again to be world-class liars.

Actually, I am impressed with the forbearance shown by the Iranian leadership, given the nauseating degree of US interference in their affairs. Now, in practical terms, this is probably due to their knowledge that the USA, with a military a thousand times more powerful than their own, could crush them if they became too “uppity.”

Sheer is right: Ahmadi-Nejad has told the truth. George W. Bush has been shown, for the hundredth time, to be a bald-faced liar.

#118686 by ender

Very good post ender and very true.

I don’t blame Iran for wanting a nuclear weapon as a defensive option, against a provocative, overflying Israel, sort of a quid pro quo.  The U.S. should demand as a condition of receiving AID that Israel open up it’s nuclear stockpile and let the IAEA inspect the safety of Israels’ nuclear program.

THE PROTOCOL
------------

THE PROTOCOL is simply the minutes of the proceedings of the Meetings of the Learned Elders of Zion.

Mr. Henry Ford, in an interview published in the New York World, February
17th, 1921, put the case for Nilus tersely and convincingly:

“The only statement I care to make about the Protocols is that they fit in with what is going on. They are sixteen years old,and they have fitted the world situation up to this time.They fit it
now.”

08-12-2007: ON AUTO-PILOT AND ON COURSE.

Non credo, while the IAEA confirms the level of Iranian enrichment is only to the level required for domestic nuclear power plants, I have to question the wisdom of any nation seeking to develop such a dangerous method of power generation when the are so many green alterntive sources of energy.  But that is a question of ecology and not one that warrants the bellicosity of these neocons who are simply looking for an “excuse” to carry out their long-held goal of extending U.S. hegemony over the whole of the oil-rich middle east.

here are the link to the videos to my comments bellow

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2346853306620 58240&q=israel+secret+weapon&total=107&start=0& amp;num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1 Israel secret weapon program

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8187301869971 500776 Bush family wealth

RIRedinPA you say “lastdaywatchers - are you talking to yourself in the third person?”

The answer is NO I’m talking to the whole world, but to those of you on TruthDig I say this

“If you don’t want to believe God Word about the Iraq Invader”

Try some of these treads by men (I was lead to these video by Robert see below)

Ahmadinejad Thinks Iran Is Home Free

It always was implausible that a country without a single working nuclear-power reactor would spend so heavily on, and be so secretive about, uranium enrichment. The IAEA still wants to know more about unexplained traces of highly enriched uranium found by inspectors and a document Iran had for years showing how to shape uranium metal into hemispheres, a technique useful only for weapons. Inspectors also want Iran to account for drawings dated 2003 from a laptop provided to America by a defector in 2004 that show design work on a missile cone that could accommodate a nuclear warhead. (Economist-UK)

http://www.economist.com/world/africa/displaystory.cfm ?story_id=10253457

Non-Credo-

Enriched Uranium is not necessary for nuclear power plants.  CANDU reactors are able to use unenriched uranium because the heavy water they use as a moderator and coolant does not absorb neutrons like light water does. Next argument?

lastdaywatchers - are you talking to yourself in the third person?

Conveniently left out by Mr. Sheer:

“While U.S. intelligence agencies have “high confidence” that covert work on a bomb was suspended “for at least several years” after 2003, there is only “moderate confidence” that Tehran has not restarted the military program. Iran’s massive overt investment in uranium enrichment meanwhile proceeds in defiance of binding U.N. resolutions, even though Tehran has no legitimate use for enriched uranium. The U.S. estimate of when Iran might produce enough enriched uranium for a bomb—sometime between late 2009 and the middle of the next decade—hasn’t changed.”

Oh foolish generation you love to here yourself talk to one another but refuse to here the Word of God

Which says “Now Habakkuk gives the reason and the person that started this domino effect that bring about the rise of Babylon (Iraq)

Are you going to believe God Word?, or the “Good reports on Baghdad” you are being framed to believe?
”

For more of the truth of What God say instead of the vain inmaginations of men

Go to http://lastdaywatchers.blogspot.com/

That is why the only way Iran can avoid being the ‘cause of WWIII’ is to rejoin the Dollar base oil bourse.  Saddam refused and we saw his fake execution.  The Iranian people probably won’t be so lucky.
Israel is a convenient tool to maintain the unrest in the Mideast that keeps despots in power.  We can deal with despots.  Educated, thinking humans that attempt to exercise control over their own lives are much harder to deal with.  As long as they are busy hating and scratching out an existence in ignorance, the money and power just keep flowing up.

If you haven’t seen the first segment of God’s Warriors about Jewish Warriors you should. 60% of Israelis think they should return all of the occupied lands, and this is a most debated topic in that country, and a major theme to all national elections.
The rest, largely made up off the military faction that waged the first wars in ‘59, 67, etc. are strongly tied to America’s military machine, and as such are the ones that keep the flow of aid, in the tune of $20billion a year flowing into Israel. As clealy proven in Christine Amanpur’s documentary, most of this group are true Zionist, who never intended to maintain the borders the UN decreed for the state of Israel, and have used terrorism and started wars to further that agenda.
By settling occupied lands, Israel is in violation of international law. Israel is in violation of more than 200 UN resolutions, more than Saddam, but no sanctions have ever been assessed because the US as a seccouncil member has blocked every one.
Amanpur’s documentary uses interviews from participants and first hand historical accounts to show that the settlements in the West Bank have not been soley for defense, but she neglects to bring home that these settlements have allowed Israel to cut Palestine in half and prevent meaningful commerce, but have also served to cut off access to water and redirect it into Israel. There agricultural success comes largely on the backs of Palestinians, first removed from their ancestral homes without recompense, then denied access to any way to survive.
There condition has been exploited by neighboring Islamic states to keep the state of agitaion high with Israel, and Islamic hate for Israel far exceeds Islamic concern for Palestinians, but Israel has done nothing but agrivate the situration.
Our unconditional support for Israel’s illegal and often inhumane activities have made us militant Islam’s number 2 target. It may be an excuse for jealousy of our modernization, material extravagance, and hardwon secular freedoms, but it is a legitimate grievence, where the rest are just creations of their own cultural inferiority complex.
Yes, Israel is the father of modern state sponsored terrorism and has been the tool of the Zionist minority there to attempt to expand Israel into it’s biblical boundaries, beyond the secular boundaries created by the UN charter that created the modern state.
Our own fundamentalist Christian cults, that believe that Christ is coming in their lifetime, don’t think that can happen unless Israel’s biblical boundaries are restored, and the temple of Solomon replaces the Islamic Dome of the Rock.

This is a combined repost.  I apologize if you are tired of this particular rant, but I think it is valid and may shed light on the reason DickBush is determined to bomb the Shiite out of Iran before leaving office. I’m not extremely confident that Billary won’t do the same thing, but she/he is smarter than Shrub, and not as bloodthirsty as Darth Cheney, so she may find a different method to accomplish the same end.  This will stretch to two post.  It also addresses Israel’s place in this mess.

• The public faces of gov’t are not the true power brokers in the US.  Most are not on the ‘list of wealthiest people’ either.  Bill Gates has more influence on our national policy than you or I, but not significantly more.  Bush, Cheney, and Rummy may have been an “Axis of Evil” but neither they and the think tank kids like Rove and Libby are just tools of the old money families where money is in private businesses and trust with unclear ownership and control.
The elite most likely look at the monkeys in the White House as dumb kids just having a little fun. 
If they start WWIII, so what?  The small group of families that wield true power are so international and own enough of all of the channels of wealth, that any calamity only funnels more wealth upward.  They can’t lose.  And I suspect they get a secret pleasure in a time such as this when we are shown we are sheep with no real control of our national policy or direction.
If you think the Democrats are any different you are sadly mistaken.  They work for the same people and that ain’t you or me.
The American economy is vaporware.  We produce very little, while even food production, one of our most prolific resources, is now only part of a global supply chain that can be turned off overnight if we misbehave.  They don’t need us anymore, hence the open borders, free trade, offshoring and H-1B workers widen the gap and keep us invested in the survival of conspicuous consumerism as our national religion.
The only real threat to that elite in recent years has been Iraq engaging in oil trade in Euros vs the Dollar, and Iran threatening to do so. The Federal Reserve issues money on an imaginary value that actually is tied to the world’s largest commodity market, Oil.  If the dollar becomes unhinged from the oil market, any intrinsic value is lost, and the emperor’s new close aren’t there anymore.

Nope, Marshall--the statement you quote lacks the specificity you assert.  But don’t be troubled with the facts my friend.  Being a neocon is a faith-based world view, so you fit right in.

dihey:  I’m not certain what poll you relied upon for your statement that 80% of Israeli citizens are opposed to an attack on Iran, but you seem to be forgetting that there can often be a monumental difference between the desires of a nation’s citizens and the policies of its leaders, be those leaders sociopathic neocons like Dick Cheney or Zionists like those in Israel whose racism prevents them from recognizing the basic humanity of the Palestinians they oppress.  I suspect you could not find even 20% of the American populace who would support an attack on Iran, but don’t think for a moment that this would prevent Cheney from doing just that if he thinks he can get away with it.

Goffredo

I get that a lot, no need for apologies. I should change it but I’ve had it forever and use it on several sites.

I don’t disagree with you on the Bushies tattoing the drums of war here and I think the President does owe the nation an explanation of why he was so flagrant with his comments, such as “World War III” when he had that information on hand. I also would like to though know I’ll never receive, an answer as to why engagement is off the table. Israel? Neocons? Teenage rebellion against Dad? Engagement does not mean explicit trust but the better the communication the less a chance of misunderstandings. One would think he would see his own dealings with North Korea as an example here.

But the Iranians have a long way to go (as do we) to establish a level of trust with us. They have a long history of funding directly and indirectly terrorists organizations which have caused death and harm to Americans and America’s interest. A little background on me, on my 18th birthday I was learning to rappel off the training tower at Fort Jackson, SC in BASIC training and when the Marine barracks were blown up in Beirut I had just made my first parachute jump down at Ft. Benning. I knew one Marine, from my high school, who was in the building, he fortunately lived.

I also don’t want to imply because we suspect something that that is an excuse to do a little “shock and awe” in downtown Tehran. My thoughts on this are there is what the Bushies are saying, there is what the Iranians are saying and somewhere in the middle lies the truth. The route to the end of this is still through the negotiating table.

>>It wouldn’t go in a court of law in a county courthouse in Wyoming<<

LOL, pick another state, I am sure in Wyoming it is accepted legal practice, especially if Mssgr Cheney was the county judge…

The rest of the world need fear us for only 13 more months, well, unless we dummy up, again, and put Rudi or Mitt in the WH.

Do the FACTS of this administrations LIES really SURPRISE ANYONE????????His Imperial Higha**-Emperor BUSH*T-has allowed “his Friends” to RUIN THE AMERICAN ECONOMY-He allows “documents” to be destroyed so his “regime” does NOT LOOK as “corrupt”.
He ALLOWS “his friends” to “get rich” off of “THE PEOPLE HE IS EMPLOYED BY"-THEN HE “BLAMES” EVERY ONE ELSE FOR THE FAILURES HAPPENING ON “HIS WATCH"-I WILL REMEMBER “THE BUSH*T ERA” as one of the worst economical disasters as well as one of the most corrupt and spendthrift times of AMERICAS’HISTORY......And the most IMPORTANT thing to ROMNEY is “BANNING CARROTS” from the GOVERNORS MANSION???And GUILIANI has a [possible] pedophile as an ADVISOR???Is this truly what was in mind when they stole this country from it’s rightful owners???
ALL AMERICANS NEED TO REBEL...LIKE THE “BOSTON TEA PARTY”...AND “STAND TO ARMS” in order to “WREST” our country back from “THE TERRIORISTS” in power NOW…

Red,

I assumed that from your name, apologies, sincerely.

This does go back to the same tune that was played for Iraq.  You simply cannot go around the world “spreading democracy” with bombs, operating under that premise (just because we don’t have proof doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist).  That is fatally flawed.  It wouldn’t go in a court of law in a county courthouse in Wyoming, why should it be acceptable on the world stage?

If I had to bet whether they desire a nuclear weapon or not, I’m going with my gut: they probably do.  But we were the only country back in 2001 to back out of the 25 + year long-range missile treaty.  If anyone should be scared, it’s the rest of the world....OF US!

I read your entire post, compliments.  I understand your position much better.

Red,

I assumed that from your name, apologies, sincerely.

This does go back to the same tune that was played for Iraq.  You simply cannot go around the war “spreading democracy” with bombs, operating under that premise (just because we don’t have proof doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist).  That is fatally flawed.  It wouldn’t go in a court of law in a county courthouse in Wyoming, why should it be acceptable on the world stage?

If I had to bet whether they desire a nuclear weapon or not, I’m going with my gut: they probably do.  But we were the only country back in 2001 to back out of the 25 + year long-range missile treaty.  If anyone should be scared, it’s the rest of the world....OF US!

I read your entire post, compliments.  I understand your position much better.

Marshall,

You’re right, I guess.  Being “determined” constitutes guilt in the neocon world.  Sorry, I forgot. 

There is still no evidence of a nuclear weapon or a nuclear weapons program; only speculation based on “intentions” and “determination” - both of which are entirely subjective.

And please don’t give me that tired, beaten rhetorical line..."we can’t wait for the proof to come in the form of a mushroom cloud.”

ZZZZzzzzz....

But, as Joseph Goebbels once said, “If you tell a big enough lie and you keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.”

Goffredo:

>>That’s how I felt about the 2000 presidential election here.<<

I couldn’t agree with you more. As well as 2004. I was , with my use of quotes, attempting (weakly I’ll admit) to point out that though Ahmadinejad is elected he does not hold much power in his country, that is reserved to the Supreme Leader, which is currently Ayatollah Khamenei, a man that Ahmadinejad has been loyal to his entire career. The Supreme Leader has final say on all foreign and domestic issues. I make the presumption, that for the most part, when you hear Ahmadinejad speak, your really hearing Khamenei’s words.

I understand your point about how you cannot discontinue a program that you cannot prove exists. Interesting that you chose that phrase instead of the something more definitive, like “a program that doesn’t exist”. Certainly, you will concede that just because we can’t prove something doesn’t exists does not mean it does not exist.

I’m not contesting the NIE report here. Despite the failings of our intelligence community in the past on other large issues (the economic power of the Soviet Union, the staying power of Castro, Iraq’s WMDs) I am willing to take the report at face value and agree that Iran has had no nuclear weapon development program since 2003. However, I am not willing to make the leap of faith that you are that they have never had one a program or ambitions for one. Several factors which cloud up the issue prevent me from doing so:

Their continued expansion of their ballistic missile program, the duel use technology they are researching in their civilian nuclear energy program and certain minor issues, like in May, when trace amounts of material were found in some military installations which though not weapon’s grade where way higher than needed for energy creation.

I have no desire for war with Iran, it will lead to nothing but tragedy and force Iran’s hand to switch from peaceful nuclear research to military applications of that research. I want engagement, twenty-five years is long enough for us not to sit at the table with the largest player in the ME. Hell, we returned to the table with Vietnam in less.

But that does not mean I also trust the Iranians explicitly. Their track record is as tainted as ours in using nefarious means to further their geopolitical and regional aims. The NIE says they are not researching nuclear weapons, then I accept that. But to say they have never had those ambitions, well, I’ll reserve judgment before I agree to that.

As for your other comments:

>>“Expectation” = resentment under construction<<

I like that and will probably borrow it from you.

>>Don’t you just hate liberals...always dealing in facts and data.<<

Since there is no way any of us could be dealing with all the facts and data in any given situation I’ll let you feel good about thinking you have the monopoly here.

As for the implication that I am, for lack of any other word, a “conservative” not sure what you’re basing that on - my disagreement with your assessment? My screen name? (For a clue to that look up Rhode Island Red (RIRed). I’m a transplant living outside Philadelphia.

I actually consider myself a moderate, left leaning on social issues.

I am not a supporter nor a friend of Israel’s policies and actions on the so-called West Bank. However, I am disturbed that Israel is assessed so violently here in a discussion about Iran’s “nuclear intentions”. About eighty percent of Israel’s people are reported to be opposed to an attack on Iran. That may not totally deter Israel’s government but it is a fact that also needs to be aired.
To me Iran’s objectives are fairly transparent. The country may be awash in oil and gas today, but every oil-geologist knows that this is bound to stop some day. Then what? Is it unreasonable that Iran does not want to wait a few additional decades to just before running out of oil and gas before developing alternative energy production? The French have demonstrated that going nuclear is possible and Iran has many more potential sites than France for storing its nuclear waste.
With regards to the pre-2003 “nuclear activities” in Iran, I do not know what these were but I have a hunch that they consisted of testing one ultracentrifuge in a single shabby laboratory room by a handful of scientists and engineers and not more. Were there some persons in Iran then who advocated the development of nuclear weapons? I do not know the answer of course but I would not be surprise that a few existed. One will find such advocates in every country of the Earth. They succeeded in India and Pakistan. However, advocates do not necessarily a policy make.

#118572 by Ernest Canning on 12/06 at 9:19 pm

From Ahmadinejad’s UN General Assembly speech in 2005: “1. The Islamic Republic of Iran reiterates its previously and repeatedly declared position that in accordance with our religious principles, pursuit of nuclear weapons is prohibited.”

I think that would appear to cover 2003 and before, don’t you?

And if you mistrust NIEs as you’ve stated, then why would you be critical of Bush for making policy that you believe to be inconsistent with the NIE findings?

#118565 by Goffredo on 12/06 at 8:23 pm

<<Marshall, Before we begin, please read more about the NIE report.  Iran never possessed a weapons program. >>

Goffredo, this is from the NIE:  “We assess with high confidence that until fall 2003, Iranian military entities were working under government direction to develop nuclear weapons.”

Here’s the link to the NIE itself so you can familiarize yourself with it:

http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20071203_release.pdf

I found this article interesting and thought you might too.  Looks like Bush’s buddy Bandar doesn’t feel he’ll have a “place” in America anymore.

http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20071206/NEWS/71205044

Wow that’s rich!  Our long absent neocon, Marshall, acuses progressives of “cherry picking” the intelligen