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Reports

The YouSnooze Debate

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Posted on Nov 30, 2007

By E.J. Dionne

WASHINGTON—Mitt Romney and Rudy Giuliani did a fine job of achieving their objectives in Wednesday’s Republican presidential debate: Each thoroughly discredited the other.

    They also disgraced themselves as they pandered relentlessly to the growing anti-immigrant feeling in their party. 

    Mike Huckabee and John McCain were the only candidates willing to suggest what now seems unmentionable: Immigrants, even those here illegally, are human beings and shouldn’t be used as political playthings.

    At least Tom Tancredo, the Colorado congressman whose railing against immigration has become his mission in life, was consistent with his past. He had every right to say, with glee, that his rivals were “trying to out-Tancredo Tancredo.” It was a perfect description of the evening.

    The CNN/YouTube debate was a depressing spectacle. There was little inspiration for the future, no sense that Republicans are grappling with why their party has become so unpopular, and few departures from rigid adherence to the party line on taxes, guns, gay rights and a slew of other questions.

    Oh, yes, the candidates were all for big spending cuts—but only of the vague, across-the-board variety. When the brave foes of Washington’s largess were confronted with a question about eliminating farm subsidies, they morphed into big-government guys.

    Bold about slashing budgets earlier in the debate, Giuliani was judiciousness itself when it came to farmers. Farm spending cuts, he insisted, should not be done “simplistically.” No, no, “we’ve got to do this very carefully.”

    Romney, who kept coming back to the dangers of runaway government outlays, insisted that farm subsidies were different because “it’s important for us to make sure that our farmers are able to stay on the farm.” Romney helpfully explained all this opportunism by ticking off the list of states besides Iowa, home of the first presidential nominating caucus, where farmers loom large. He sounded as if he were merrily counting delegate votes in his head.

    But it was on immigration where Giuliani and Romney demonstrated for all to see that winning matters more to them than anything else.

    Giuliani in particular had been warmly inclined toward immigrants, including undocumented immigrants, when he was mayor of liberal and diverse New York City.

    Here’s Giuliani in 1996: “The anti-immigration issue that’s now sweeping the country in my view is no different than the movements that swept the country in the past,” he said. “You look back at the Chinese Exclusionary Act, or the Know-Nothing movement—these were movements that encouraged Americans to fear foreigners, to fear something that is different, and to stop immigration.” That’s an excellent description of the current moment.

    But on Wednesday, Giuliani played right into the feelings he once condemned and downplayed his past—even if he couldn’t fully deny it. After Romney assailed Giuliani for turning New York into a “sanctuary city,” the former mayor said that Romney had employed illegal immigrants to do work on his Massachusetts home, transforming it into a “sanctuary mansion.”

    Romney, in turn, asked Giuliani if he was saying that a person who hired a company for home improvement work should be expected to ask someone in the work crew who had “a funny accent” to prove he was here legally. The exchange made both men look very small.

    But there did come the heroic moments from Huckabee and McCain—moments that may have done them little good with the GOP’s primary voters.

    When Romney attacked Huckabee, a former Arkansas governor, for supporting a state program under which some children of illegal immigrants got help to attend college, Huckabee stuck to his guns. “In all due respect, we’re a better country than to punish children for what their parents did,” Huckabee said. I hope he’s right.

    Huckabee, the first male in his family to graduate from high school, got in a nice dig at Romney’s very privileged background by noting: “I worked my way through college.”

    As for McCain, he seemed disgusted by the odor of the nativist compost being spread around the stage. “This whole debate saddens me a little bit,” he said. Of immigrants, he dared to declare: “These are God’s children as well, and they need some protections under the law and they need some of our love and compassion.” I hope God blesses McCain for that.

    What happened on Wednesday night is actually scary. A legitimate concern over the failures of our national immigration policy is being transformed into an ugly attempt to turn immigrants into scapegoats for all our discontents. The real shame is that both Romney and Giuliani know better.   

    E.J. Dionne’s e-mail address is postchat(at)aol.com.   

    © 2007, Washington Post Writers Group

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By PaulMagillSmith, December 3, 2007 at 2:08 pm #

#117517 by GW=MCHammered on 12/02 at 9:26 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“Jezus. Can’t we just write-in a foreign government to take over?”
Quite a number of people are ignorant of the fact a foreign government has pretty much already taken over—-Isreal. We give them bilions in aid each year and what do we get in return? An almost constant state of war in the middle east, perpetual discord with their closest neighbor (Palestine), and a long history of deceptive ‘false flag’ operations designed to make their Arab neighbors look bad to the international community.

All this because one questionably Jewish family (the Rothschilds) seek world domination. See:

http://iamthewitness.com/doc/RothschildsTimeline-fi ler/frame.htm

Of course we will see someone post something slandering me as ‘anti-Semetic’, but this is expected since it’s a tactic used many times by Zionists to deflect criticism away from them, and of course their intent to control the world financially, politically, & militarily (using the US as their stooge).

Just take a look at who has the most influence over the US government (AIPAC) & who has control over the MSM ( http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/ ), and you can easily see why these debates are just window dressing to provide legitimacy for the upcoming elections. The winner was chosen long before the race even started.

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By americatheblind, December 3, 2007 at 12:27 pm #

From what I recall, the YouTube debates amounted to the usual:  Put the supposed “frontrunners” in the middle, ie. Giuliani, Thompson, Romney.  Give their puppets the best questions with the most time to answer; and the most t.v time overall to really engrave these “frontrunners” into the eyes of the unknowing American public.  Anderson Cooper did a horrible job mediating the event, especially the time, and consistantly let Romney and Giuliani spat back and forth like a bunch of school children.  The questions they allowed were a joke, as I expected they would be; and makes me wonder how many truly serious and meaningful questions were denied so that Giuliani could get the last question asked directly to him about why he (as a devout Yankees fan), rooted for the Red Sox in the World series.  Seriously people, are these the important pressing questions that
demand to be answered by the American people?  CMON!!!!!!

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By GW=MCHammered, December 2, 2007 at 9:26 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Jezus. Can’t we just write-in a foreign government to take over? I’m sick of these schizoid-cardboard two-party clones and the media that supports them.

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By JT_Lancer, December 2, 2007 at 8:24 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

It would be deliciously ironic if the Democrats choose a pro-war candidate (Hillary Clinton) as their nominee and the Repubs select an anti-war candidate (Ron Paul) as theirs.

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By Ken Hall, December 2, 2007 at 6:04 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

I agree with Joe Alverez. The GPO need to seriously ask themselves IF they want Hillary as President, or IF they want a republican. By that I mean a REAL republican.  Because Ron Paul is the only candidate that can pull enogh Democrats across to the GOP to beat Hillary. Rudy would have independents voting in droves for Hillary or Barak. Ron Paul is the ONLY republican that can beat Hillary Clinton, or Barak Obama.

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By Yelwrose, December 1, 2007 at 4:50 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

I only watched the first hour before I turned it off in disgust.  A few days later my father commented that he thought it was a travesty that no health care or war questions were asked.  Is this true?  Did CNN really completely ignore the two biggest issues in the country?

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By dale Headley, December 1, 2007 at 3:50 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Republicans can afford to be on the wrong (ultra-conservative) side of issues; they only have to win the votes necessary to gain the nomination.  Once nominated, the winner will be confident that the elections will be rigged more efficiently than in ‘06.

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By srelf, December 1, 2007 at 12:04 pm #

PaulMagillSmith,
JoeAlvarez:

Fully agree: CNN’s hand it making the debate the travesty it was, should be front and center.

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By Louise, December 1, 2007 at 8:10 am #

Is it just me, or are the republican candidates really, truly that completely ignorant of the problems their party has created in this country?

Are they really that stupid?

Oh I know, conventional wisdom says they are distancing themselves from the Bush administration, but are they? Or are they simply incapable of understanding current so-called conservative values devalue everything of value? I mean, are they so out of touch with reality they simply do not understand real problems exist and real problems require real solutions?

And what about the folks at CNN and YouTube who guided this debate? Are they really that stupid? And what about the questions that got asked by the faithful? Are they really that stupid?

For a while it was funny, watching them get in a tizzy over silly stuff that doesn’t make a bit of difference in the price of gas, or the lack of health care, or food and shelter for some. Not to mention while these clowns are pretending to be credible, PEOPLE ARE DYING!

But, it isn’t funny anymore.

Like it or not, we have seen the high priest of indifferent, bored, detached, corrupt, and ‘not to bright’ mediocrity plunked down in the White House ... twice! Encouraged and supported [and the outcome tweaked] by people we previously thought of as intelligent and honest. And capable of thinking!

We know better now.
Sandra Day O’Conner springs to mind.
And Collin Powell.
And John McCain.
And so many others we use to hold in high esteem.

Now we are forced to face the very real possibility that there could actually be a republican president who is even LESS informed, LESS capable, LESS intelligent, and LESS honest than the grand poo-bah sitting there now!

A terrifying thought indeed!

And the best reason I can think of to hold your nose and vote democrat ... no matter what!

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By PaulMagillSmith, December 1, 2007 at 2:01 am #

WR Curley you are reading my mind and speaking my thoughts.

It goes much deeper than most would ever believe because the ones in the front lines, the ones who bear the brunt of the public blame, are themselves controlled by insidious forces who have planned this long ago. It’s a pyramid of puppets & the enslaved, run by some people & families that make Capone and the Mafia look like choirboys. The only chance the peons (us & immigrants alike) have is to upset the money flow, a difficult task at best, but if we don’t believe we can accompish it we might as well put more shackles on and surrender for good.

I flatly refuse to do so, and I sense the same determination in you and quite a number of others. The noose is continually tightening, though, and just as Hitler did it is being done though the sham of legality.

Our only bulwork against the impending continual tyranny is an informed motivated citizenry so keep speaking out whenever, and to whomever, you can.

They haven’t won yet.

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By Scott, November 30, 2007 at 7:14 pm #

But since when has compassion and respect figured into a capitalist transaction?

I sold a cord of firewood to a little old lady today. Then I packed it away into her woodshed. Usually I just dump it in people’s yards and drive off. As I said though she was little and old and I used to fish with her husband years ago before he passed away and the fishery died.

When I got back to the yard I promptly squashed my finger and now I have 10 stitches and a pouty lower lip.

I wonder how compassionate the bank will be when I tell them I may have to delay my payment for a week or so.

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By DennisD, November 30, 2007 at 7:14 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

It was just the GOP (Greed Over Principle) at it’s best - using as many words as possible to say nothing.

Ron Paul please run as an Independent.

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By WR Curley, November 30, 2007 at 5:16 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Illegal immigrants are an essential component in the relentless capitalist drive to maximize productivity. The issue is economic. Efforts to shift focus to race or ethnicity or to the sanctity of due process are propaganda.

The Bush/Cheney cartel has pressed hard for some sort of legal recognition for the status quo: To wit, there are about 13 million workers, with no documentation, living in the US under the radar. They do not question authority.  They do not have workman’s comp. They post no grievances. They take what they can get. They will underbid any job any time. They are the perfect workforce (English proficiency aside). They are better than slaves, really, because Massah does not need to provide housing, food, and medical. 

These people are a god-send for the owner/management class. They drive down wages and increase profit. They have no ownership stake, so all the gains trickle upward.

Any conservative with a minimal capacity for thought realizes that the flood of illegal immigration completes the cycle of globalization. As capitalists range the planet in search of the lowest labor costs, jobs flow from the first to the second to the third world. Inevitably the peoples impelled by desperate privation to enslave themselves for a pittance will be found in nations with tyrannical miltary/political machines. Or hapless and corruptible police/political/oligarchic machines.  For the ownership class, productivity and profit increase. For the working class, economic and political stability decrease.

As the machinadoras migrate from Mexico to south-east Asia, jobs migrate with them. The freshly unemployed Mexican migrates to the US, to take the service and construction and production jobs bid suddenly down by the fact of the presence of the desperate Mexican. Who, because he will work complacently, accepting conditions offered, renders desperately precarious the economic and political stability that the indigenous working class fought for generations to guarantee.

So the tide lowers all boats (the yachts, mind you, ply their own pond).

Yes, sure, the undocumented are people too, and they deserve compassion and respect. But since when has compassion and respect figured into a capitalist transaction?

Pandering to the curious paradox of a Reagan Republican working class - a people sold on the genial smile, the crinkled eyes, the studio-wardrobe Stetson; a people sold down-river by Fox News and right-wing rant-radio - the putative conservative candidates must publically assail the illegals amongst us. But privately, trust me, they all know a thing or two about profit.

Romney made his bones as a management consultant, cutting the fat (jobs) from corporate muscle. Giuliani sparred endlessly with city unions when he was Mr Mayor. They both welcome anyone willing to do the work of the world for the least possible fiscal outlay.

Compassionate conservative is an oxymoron. Believe it.

So Dionne gets it wrong. Again. He’s lucid, though, and you have to admire the ambition (I suppose).

WR Curley
Elizabeth, Colorado

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By purplewolf, November 30, 2007 at 1:49 pm #

Yes they always get quiet when NAFTA is mentioned, how come Bush’s baby CAFTA that he forced thru a few years back is never heard of at all?

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By Politik, November 30, 2007 at 1:17 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

And why did everyone but Ron Paul get quiet when the North American Union Conspiracy was brought up? Because all those gangsters have had a hand in it. Ron Paul, although too extreme for lazy Joe American, is the only candidate worth listening to and voting for.

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By PaulMagillSmith, November 30, 2007 at 11:21 am #

What a bunch of crap this debate was. The serious issues weren’t delved into in a manner that should have been done, quite a number of BS questions were asked, and it did little to answer questions America wants answered. It was little more than a MSM Republican photo-op.

Of course Ron Paul was marginalized. Anyone who suggests doing away with IRS & the FED rock the very foundation of the means by which the uber-wealthy enslave the rest of the population. Paul might speak the truth on these issues, but too many other items on his libertarian agenda are a complete turnoff.

The YouTube idea is a good one ONLY if there is an independent panel of citizen selected people choosing the questions to be asked. Leaving it up to the corporate MSM, to select the questions, is throwing a fox in the henhouse. The media are looking at receiving about $1.5 billion from advertising revenues so why would you expect them to throw their weight behind anyone other than who has the most to spend? Add to this the influence of the reputedly most pwerful lobby in the US (AIPAC) & the fact most of the MSM is Jewish dominated/owned/controlled, anyone with half a brain can easily see the fix is in, with no thought for how most Americans feel on issues.

Although it’s a really tough nut to crack the only way we will get our country back is to get all this insane amount of money out of the political process. Has anyone ever considered a couple hundred thousand person protest of all the lobbying/bribery firms along ‘K’ Street? Why not?

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By Paracelsus, November 30, 2007 at 8:49 am #

Here’s Giuliani in 1996: “The anti-immigration issue that’s now sweeping the country in my view is no different than the movements that swept the country in the past,” he said. “You look back at the Chinese Exclusionary Act, or the Know-Nothing movement—these were movements that encouraged Americans to fear foreigners, to fear something that is different, and to stop immigration.”


There was no fear needing to be created. There were torrents of immigrants with loyalty to the Catholic Church, which was also a nation with land in Central Italy. A stone block had been contributed by Pope Pius the 9th for the Washington Monument. This was the same Pope that forcibly adopted a Jewish boy because he was christened by an ignorant peasant girl into the Catholic Church by mistake(?) and the Jewish family after recovering the boy would not raise him as a Catholic, so the Pope in his version of CPS took possession of the boy and raised him as a Catholic. The Revolutions of 1848 had been intervened into by the Pope.

The peasants of Ireland were very unsophisticated, backward and and rude sorts. When they came over to the States there was a culture shock. The native citizens of that time had been more of a middle class mind set. You are talking about millions of Irish Catholics who knew nothing but serfdom, and had the manners of peasants.

The politicians of that time were doing nothing at that time to deal with the blow to wage scales and living standards.

So a bunch of secret societies formed to do something and unfortunately large numbers of people were harmed in street actions because of it. That is what happens when government does not listen to its citizens. You have amateurs carrying out local actions.

I am glad to see some local governments and states acting on the lack of immigration enforcement now.

I would suggest that before an open borders advocate tries to use the term “Know-Nothing” in a pseudo-academic air of superiority that they do some research on the term.

To do this day in the newspapers and circulars of Massachusetts the benefactors(Catholic Cardinals and Priests)of the immigration deluge of the 1840’s and 1850’s deign to dictate the votes of their parishioners on issues of birth control under the threat of ex-communication and eternal damnation of the soul.

I recall that there was a Baptist minister in the 1960’s who said that it was not part of the Baptist tradition for their reverends to pronounce upon politics. The name of that minister was Jerry Falwell.

For the record I do have some Irish ancestry.

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By QuyTran, November 30, 2007 at 8:28 am #

Oh yes. They’re doing good jobs by throwing dirtiest stuffs at their faces.

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By anonymous, November 30, 2007 at 7:54 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

don’t take issue with anything but when Mr. Dionne said they know better i wondered how he knew that

i bet we have no idea how either feels since they’ve never taken a position that would lose votes

let’s just stick to rudy’s criminal behavior and mitt’s magic underwear—in other words, the facts

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By thomas billis, November 30, 2007 at 2:57 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

What else are they going to run on?Pres Bush’s record.When in doubt go into the Republican playbook and come out with fear or hate.People seem to have realized that having a gay live next you is no reason to sell the house.So Mexican immigrants you are the lucky recipients of Republican vitriol this cycle.At least they are giving the gays and lesbians a cycle off.Do not worry they have that issue warming up in the bullpen.Of course there is always tax cuts to be compensated for by spending cuts but after 7 years of George Bush that will not gain traction.So all that is left is fear and hate and they are the masters.Some Christians.

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By Justin Case, November 30, 2007 at 2:35 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

What a crappy article, I mean really Truthdig, where did you get this garbage?

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By Margaret from Portland Oregon, November 30, 2007 at 1:30 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

I am sorry but I know that Giulani can not become president nor get the nomination of his part.

A lot of independent voters who lean Republician would rather have McCain.

But John Edwards (if he is sincere) talks for most Americans.

Lobbyist government has to be contained, people leave the sinking Bush ship and what are their plans to become part of a Lobbiest firm, this is what Trent Lott says he wants to do, replace the discredited with the dicredited.

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By Joe Alvarez, November 30, 2007 at 12:45 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Anyone else notice that CNN is still marginalizing Ron Paul? Tancredo who is dead, dead, dead in this campaign is getting mention while Ron Paul—who just finished raising more in one day than any other member of the GOP—is getting squat. CNN chose the questions and they have once again put the “front runners” front and center and moved Paul off to the side because he’s too much of a threat to Hillary. Yes, he is! He’s more anti-war than Hillary and not owned by any lobby or PAC. He’s not afraid to tell us that our country is making mistakes and that our economy is going down the tubes. And as in the War on Terror, the media is more than happy to toe the Bush line and marginalize anyone who threatens it. The only 3 candidates who are seriously against the war have been marginalized—Paul, Kucinich and Gravel. Coincidence?

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