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Truthdigger of the Week:  Archbishop Desmond Tutu

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Posted on Nov 18, 2007
Desmond Tutu
AP photo / Nati Harnik

Tour de force: South African Archbishop Desmond Tutu has cut a wide swath through global social and political issues of late.  Here Tutu addresses reporters before delivering the keynote speech at an event for Girls Inc. in Omaha, Neb., on Oct. 22.

Truthdig tips its hat this week to South African Archbishop Desmond Tutu, who took the Anglican Church to task for what he called its “homophobic” attitude, declaring in a recent interview with BBC Radio 4 that, “If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn’t worship that God.” 

Archbishop Tutu zeroed in on church leadership in his critique, lamenting that the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams, has not promoted the idea of a “welcoming God” to all members.  Instead, Tutu charged, Williams and other top officials have unduly focused on the subject of gay priests, which cropped up again in the controversy over the openly gay bishop of New Hampshire, Gene Robinson, when much bigger considerations should be given priority.  “Our world is facing problems—poverty, HIV and AIDS—a devastating pandemic, and conflict,” the 76-year-old Nobel Peace Prize winner told the BBC.  “In the face of all of that, our church, especially the Anglican Church, at this time is almost obsessed with questions of human sexuality.” 

Tutu also seemed to have little patience with the question (usually posed as a thinly veiled judgment) of whether homosexuality is an individual choice, invoking racial parallels—and turning the terminology of perversion on its head—while offering his own take on the topic.  “It is a perversion if you say to me that a person chooses to be homosexual,” he said, adding that, “It’s like saying you choose to be black in a race-infected society.”  Although some might take issue with the particulars of Archbishop Tutu’s argument, his overall message pays tribute to the notion of an all-embracing God who truly delivers on the promise of grace for those who believe.  Amen, as they say, to that.

Additional links:

Click here for more about the (as yet) unresolved controversy over gender and sexuality in the “Anglican Communion.”

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Archbishop Tutu also held forth about America’s foreign policy last week in Cambridge, Mass., as the Harvard Crimson reports.

Not one, apparently, to shrink away from yet another challenging and timely topic, Tutu let his opinion be known about the death penalty in The Guardian on Nov. 13.


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By Dominick J., July 16, 2009 at 7:32 am Link to this comment

Nick God isn’t homophobic, Pleople who interpret the Bible for their own satisfaction are!  Let’s be really clear hear.  The Bible doesn’t say anything.
The Bible doesn’t mean anything.  The Bible, like all books sacred or secular, divinely-inspired or humanly-composed contain works; a body of text we read, study, ponder and ultimately interpret, giving the words of text meaning!  In and of itself the text doesn’t have meaning but gains it’s meaning through the process of interpretation.  ALL text is interpreted, none is “taken literally just as it says.”  How we as humans interpret and thus find particular meaning in Scripture is influenced by a number of factors; we come as empty vessels.  We’re socialized to find certain meaning in the Scritprues.  We have pre-existing ideas, convictions and prejudices.  No One reads the Bible and finds it’s meaning without bias.  We are influenced by our upbringing, by our political leanings, by our social location, race and ethnicity.

By the way it took you quite a while to respond eh?  I mean 2007??  Sheeeesh

And for the record—Tutu is Christian.  It’s just you’re interpretation to smear this good man of God.

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By Nick, July 14, 2009 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Desmond Tutu says, ““If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn’t worship that God.” 

I believe that, among other things, Tutu means by his statement that he could not worship a God who condemns the sexual expressions of homosexuality.  Tutu is showing that he is not willing to worship the God revealed in the Bible because the Bible is clear in many places that homosexuality is sin and not to be blessed and affirmed.  Whatever God Tutu worships, it is not the God of the Bible, and since it is not, then he is not a Christian, but a blind guide of the spiritually blind, and they will, in the language of Scripture, both fall into the pit.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 26, 2007 at 7:41 pm Link to this comment

I’m REPEATING the following earlier post which has been OBSCURED by A A Khokar and Dominick (I’m not a twink, uhh)J.‘s preoccupation with avoiding ” discussing the prose and cons” by administering morphine time and again. No wonder that Musharraf moved in to occupy “the vacuum” In Pakistan!

I hope that we will all now be able to get on with discussing these points of Tutu’s which have not yet been addressed….......

#115814 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/25:-

Quote: “Archbishop Tutu also held forth about America’s foreign policy last week in Cambridge, Mass., as the Harvard Crimson reports…... Not one, apparently, to shrink away from yet another challenging and timely topic, Tutu let his opinion be known about the death penalty ...”

By the way, as this topic is also about Tutu’s views on US foreign policy, there is this additional piece by the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury which relates to that:-

Archbishop’s assault on US foreign policy: “The Archbishop of Canterbury has launched a stinging attack on the United States, comparing it unfavourably with the British Empire at its peak….

Dr Rowan Williams criticised America for intervening overseas with a “quick burst of violent action” and claimed its foreign policy had created the “worst of all worlds”....

The wide-ranging interview with a British Muslim lifestyle magazine included the Anglican leader’s most outspoken criticisms to date of the US and the war in Iraq….

He also said that the modern Western definition of humanity was not working, and that there was something about Western modernity that “really does eat away at the soul”....

Dr Williams said the crisis in Iraq was caused by America’s misguided sense of its mission in the world and ridiculed the “chosen nation” myth in America and the idea that what happened there was God’s purpose….
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/25/nbishop225.xml

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By Dominick J., November 26, 2007 at 7:18 pm Link to this comment

A Khokar says: “When civility flees the arrogance moves in to occupy the vacuum.”

Dominick:  My apology to you, A Khokar, Charles and to others reading this forum, for falling into the trap of name calling.

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By A Khokar, November 26, 2007 at 6:53 pm Link to this comment

#116023 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/26 at 4:21 pm
Your various ‘deliberations’ addressed to Dominick J and A khokar.

Douglas: If people are trying to awake to the reality and discussing the prose and cons; let them please. Don’t try to administer morphine (time and again). Let the stream of truth flow freely to reach the lives of decent, humble and innocent people. We all learn from each other.
Let’s try to search our souls and look for some our inner calls:
*A man; may he be from any age, century, trail or creed!
When ever he has risen; he rose to the call of his inner self; his inner conscious.

My humble request would be. (I will repeat.) Please keep a good grip on civility. No names calling please. When civility flees the arrogance moves in to occupy the vacuum.
———————————————
Love for all, Hatred for none.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 26, 2007 at 5:21 pm Link to this comment

#116013 by Dominick J. on 11/26 at 3:46 pm: “DC As the sayng goes, with you as a friend…”

Its “who needs ENEMIES” , DJ, uhh….... and I should have said “.... mutual appreciation of EACH OTHERS’ sanctimonious hypocrisies...”, ha ha! Oh, did I mention Love?

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By Dominick J., November 26, 2007 at 4:46 pm Link to this comment

DC As the sayng goes, with you as a friend who needs enemys!

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 26, 2007 at 4:30 pm Link to this comment

#115998 by Dominick J. on 11/26: “Like all morons D(for douche Bag)...... Khokar has more class in his little finger than you do in your whole body…”

Actually, it was I who first defended you worthless homosexuals’ freedom of rights back at #114599 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/19…......

”...Terms like “Turn them out, your town, take pride in their purity, We saved him and We gave wisdom” are likewise both hypocritical and prejudicial and intended to do harm through vain self-righteousness. They do not have the welfare of all of the people in mind….

“You approach men with lust instead of women…” is an observation, not a reason for condemnation . It really means that there are indeed people who are sexually stimulated by their own sex. The reasons are hormonal and cannot be avoided….

The reality is that, since times immemorial, people have chosen to use any perceived differences in their group to marginalize and to denigrate individuals and minorities to their own advantage.  Prejudice is the real SIN!!!

Now that you and the very same prejudiced (oops, “progressive”)  A Khokar are so joyfully intertwined in mutual appreciation of your sanctimonious hypocrisies, I won’t bother to do so again, Dominick (“D for douche Bag”) J. “Like all morons” , you finally find the company you deserve.

Thank you so much for your kind gestures….. My motto remains peace, harmony and Love for all….... Pity you didn’t find time to read my whole post.

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By Dominick J., November 26, 2007 at 4:12 pm Link to this comment

desertdude Says: “Why is it that so many people like to tell the Church what to do, yet they don’t believe in God themselves? Rev. Tutu says “we have to many problems with hiv, poverty and aids than to worry about Homosexuality.” In case Rev. Tutu dosen’t know that Jesus never cared about hunger and diease. He cared about mens souls. The object of the church is to save souls, nothing else.”

Sorry dude, guess you don’t read the Gospels.  Jesus cared about all souls not just mens and Jesus did care about hunger And disease, and love and loyalty OH did I mention Love?  HIS greatest commanment, from the Sermon on the Mt., had nothing to do with saving souls it had a lot to with saving mankind.  Me thinks you should read the Gospels before passing judgement on what Jesus was all about.. Also I don’t know what church you go to but it’s function is a lot more than saving souls, it’s doing all of Jesus work.  Maybe your one of those Religious Right folk?

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By Dominick J., November 26, 2007 at 4:03 pm Link to this comment

Like all morons D(for douche Bag)C—-you took my words out of context.  If you’re going to quote people do the whole thing.

Here’s the whole post:

“As a Gay man I want to say a BIG thank you to Desmond TuTu and I want to thank all of the churchs and religious organizations, especially UCC, for their outstanding stand against the Religious Right and their UN-Christian view of just about everything.”

I have many Muslim Progessive friends who don’t look down me or say the trash you do about anyone.  Get a life.  Oh and by the way I’m hardly a “twink.”
A Khokar has more class in his little finger than you do in your whole body.

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By A Khokar, November 26, 2007 at 1:53 pm Link to this comment

•  #115257 by Dominick J. on 11/23 at 8:07 am)
“Hi A Khokar, You are welcome here, Dear Friend.”

And:
#115829 by Dominick J. on 11/25 at 6:17 pm

I have read both articles, enjoyed their frankness and honesty, and posted them to my email list. I find their truth very refreshing.

A thought to A Khokar.  I love your NON fundamental view of the Quaran.

Thank you so much for your kind gestures and encouraging, soothing words. I remain obliged.My moto remains; peace, harmoney and…
Love for all, Hatred for none

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 25, 2007 at 7:58 pm Link to this comment

#115829 by Dominick J. on 11/25: “...A thought to A Khokar.  I love your NON fundamental view of the Quaran….”

Yes, I thought so, DJ, you’ve been intentionally pissing  on my posts, uhh. Not very clever for a gay twink - and especially given what A Khokar  has said about homosexuality and the Koran (I don’t care about the spelling) in this topic already!

As you are obviously too lackadaisical and whimsical to investigate for yourself, I have copied the detail for those who do wish to check up on your falsehoods.  “NON fundamental view”, indeed, bah:-

#114423 by A Khokar on 11/18: “A pleasant reward of Sex….. Nectar and fragrant delights are the divinely blessings, ordained by Almighty God to the bees….. but the prime aim remains; the conception of female to advance the human race, like pollination of flower carried out by bees on this planet earth. .....if we only aim at deriving pleasure as in homosexuality; we are not serving the prime purpose of mechanism of nature laid out in advancing the human race; we stand transgressors…”

#114537 by A Khokar on 11/19: “Sex itself may not be the ‘reward’ in self….. Homosexuality may also be drawing some pleasure; as in the process, the individuals do activate and manipulate the body G-spots to stimulate them selves…...  Invariably this activation does not serve the prime purpose of mechanism of nature laid out in advancing the human race. One is free to indulge in it but that will be considered as an abuse. This abuse as I understand is transgression which is a rebellion and a sin full act…... Where as all the old testimonies from Almighty God delivered by His messengers forbade us to indulge into this act of lust; the latest book of God Almighty; Koran also very explicitly describes this ‘committal’ by the people of Lot* in the lust and abomination, and that how they were punished for their rebellious, wicked behaviour:-

In Chapter 29 (Al-`Ankabut): Verse 29
‘And call to mind Lot when he said to his people, ‘You commit an abomination such as no one among mankind has ever committed before you’.

In Chapter 7 (Al-A`raf): Verse 82 ‘You approach men with lust instead of women. Nay, you are a people who exceed all bounds.’

(83)’And the only answer of his people was that they said, ‘Turn them out of your town, for they are men who take pride in their purity.’(84) ‘And We saved him (Lot) and his family except his wife; she was of those who stayed behind’.

85) ‘And We rained upon them a rain. Now see, what was the end of the sinners’. 

In Chapter 53 (Al-Najm): Verse 54 ‘And He overthrew the subverted cities of the people of Lot.’

In Chapter 21 (Al-Anbiya’): Verse 75 ‘And to Lot We gave wisdom and knowledge. And We saved him from the city which practised abominations. They were indeed a wicked and rebellious people.’...”

#114941 by Dominick J. on 11/21: “As a Gay man I want to say a BIG thank you…....”!!!!

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By Dominick J., November 25, 2007 at 7:17 pm Link to this comment

I have read both articles, enjoyed their frankness and honesty, and posted them to my email list. I find their truth very refreshing.
I am also against the death penalty.

A thought to A Khokar.  I love your NON fundamental view of the Quaran.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 25, 2007 at 6:01 pm Link to this comment

Quote: “Archbishop Tutu also held forth about America’s foreign policy  last week in Cambridge, Mass., as the Harvard Crimson reports…... Not one, apparently, to shrink away from yet another challenging and timely topic, Tutu let his opinion be known about the death penalty ...”

By the way, as this topic is also about Tutu’s views on US foreign policy, there is this additional piece by the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury which relates to that:-

Archbishop’s assault on US foreign policy: “The Archbishop of Canterbury has launched a stinging attack on the United States, comparing it unfavourably with the British Empire at its peak….

Dr Rowan Williams criticised America for intervening overseas with a “quick burst of violent action” and claimed its foreign policy had created the “worst of all worlds”....

The wide-ranging interview with a British Muslim lifestyle magazine included the Anglican leader’s most outspoken criticisms to date of the US and the war in Iraq….

He also said that the modern Western definition of humanity was not working, and that there was something about Western modernity that “really does eat away at the soul”....

Dr Williams said the crisis in Iraq was caused by America’s misguided sense of its mission in the world and ridiculed the “chosen nation” myth in America and the idea that what happened there was God’s purpose…. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/25/nbishop225.xml

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 25, 2007 at 5:38 pm Link to this comment

#115669 by A Khokar on 11/22…........


It is your rhetoric, A Khokar, that you tend to indulge in….. which can be found in all of your posts - “subjects of Almighty God” is NOT an excuse for ignorance or personal weakness, or its concomitant self-righteousness and forceful or repressive behaviour towards the ‘weaker’ sex.

You should also not get disturbed when you get a reply which requires you to respond - again in the “Saudis Defend Decision to Lash Rape Victims” topic where your deceitfulness is once again masquerading as custom and religion. Sexism will NOT be excused…....

Let’s hear how you play your “saxophone tunes to a buffalo” in that topic now, uhh, whilst you show us how your pathetic excuse for a god treats the sex whose bellies you and your lot were born out of - like the rest of us! “Uncovered meat” in the words of one of your mullahs!

Again, we see that indeed “the arrogance comes in and starts making its nests” when antiquated and regressive Moslem customs supersede the essence of Islam in fundamentalist countries. So, once again, kindly go “correct your oars” at http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/20071121_saudis_defend_lashing_rape_victims/

However, back to topic, even Desmond Tutu would question how you follow “Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful” yet espouse to condemn and to justify the attacks upon the Saudi ‘Qatif’ girl.

If “He” created man, then “He” must have also created woman. In your own Koran’s words, “You were without life and He gave you life” through the belly of a woman. How can you then turn upon Allah who made woman? Hypocrites, uhh!!!

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By A Khokar, November 25, 2007 at 2:38 am Link to this comment

115446 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/24 at 6:44 am

It is your rhetoric of “hypocrite …hypocrite” that you tend to indulge in…which can be found in all of your posts. Any how I appreciate your thought provoking contributions and say thank you for that.

You should also not get disturbed when you get a reply in some what equal coins. I had already requested earlier that we should not loose hand on civility other wise the arrogance comes in and takes over.

How ever back to topic: Kindly go through my latest submission on Saudi ‘Qatif’ girl issue. You may find that there were certainly bases of my claim to use the word ‘sex’ that she was allegedly having an affair with a person which was not tolerated in that particular society.
———————————————-
Love for all, Hatred for none

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 24, 2007 at 7:44 am Link to this comment

#115428 by A Khokar on 11/24 at 5:25 am (23 comments total): “...Godly affairs are not your cup of tea and any discussion pertaining to God and hereafter; amounts to ‘playing a saxophone tunes to a buffalo’....”

So much for your fake “Love for all, Hatred for none” rhetoric, AK. Its only taken 23 posts by you here for us to find out what you are really like, uhh. That includes your maliciously sexist remark against the poor Saudi girl who is to be lashed for “being a victim”!

You had better reply to that in the appropriate topic, too -  http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/20071121_saudis_defend_lashing_rape_victims/

As for your playing your playing your “saxophone tunes to a buffalo”, when are you going to stop??? It sounds awful….... and nothing to do with any “god” I ever heard of. Hypocrite!

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By A Khokar, November 24, 2007 at 6:25 am Link to this comment

115255 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/23 at 7:21 am. “a mere “subject” of another (god or human) is as pathetic and impoverished a spiritual state as it is possible to assume. Regardless, you seen to aspire to that.”
Douglas: I understand now that Godly affairs are not your cup of tea and any discussion pertaining to God and hereafter; amounts to ‘playing a saxophone tunes to a buffalo’. (an Indian Idiom)
——————————————————-
Love for all, Hatred for none

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By Dominick J., November 23, 2007 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment

cyrena thanks for your post. 
We must remember to use “Report this comment” also.
When someone makes derogatory and disgusting remarks to or about someone, rather than being civil and discussing what the debate is about, it’s time they leave the forum.

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By cyrena, November 23, 2007 at 7:31 pm Link to this comment

•  #114678 by rowman on 11/20 at 5:15 am

Cyrena,
People are 500 X more rude on line.  Best to ignore, you never know when you have a genuine lunatic flaming you. See this recent article http://www.newscientist.com/blog/technology/2007/11/do nt-flame-me-bro.html

Rowman, there’s a paradox here, (though I’m in agreement that it’s generally better to ignore) because it was this very thing, (people 500 x more rude on line) that prompted the continuation of personal attacks and diatribes from the genuine lunatic that is Lee. I had called him a coward, (and the chicken shit part didn’t help) because of all of the insults that he was directing at me –specifically- here on line. I was certain then, (as I am now) that he wouldn’t be nearly so inflammatory in person, or in any situation when he could be held personally accountable for this behavior. So, you’re right, people are ruder when they can hide behind the anonymous cover of the internet. At least that is true of cowards, or those who would indulge in such attacks, as long as they can feel assured that there are no repercussions that might truly put them at any sort of risk aside from their own wounded pride at being called out.

And, it is THAT, (probably more than anything) which has caused him such anguish…that I would indeed speak to the truth, by exposing the myths, via factual information and a measure of common sense. No doubt he became even more incensed upon discovery of the fact that I wasn’t only a woman, (which he could probably ascertain from the name) but one of color as well. In his view, that’s a double strike against me, and so he threw in what he considered to be yet another, with his inference that I must ALSO be a homosexual. I’m not, (been quite happily heterosexual all of my life) but I don’t view or otherwise perceive one’s sexual orientation as any more a determining factor of character or integrity than gender, race, class or religion. As a matter of fact, I don’t see any place for such distinctions in the broader debate regarding the interests of HUMANkind. And, at the end of the day, (or any debate or discussion) that is still where my own advocacy begins and ends….what can we do…collectively and individually, to advance the interests of the human race at large, at the global level. This is why I have developed and maintained the admiration and respect that I have for Bishop Tutu and others like him. And, there have been others; Dr. King, Mahatma Gandhi, and others too numerous to mention here.

Now, I didn’t know about this Internet Harassment Law, so I’ll tuck this info aside in the event that I should need to be aware of it as a possible tool in defense or protection of others. For myself, it would probably be more of a bureaucratic nuisance than anything else. Suffice to say that like any other ‘public servant’, I have come to expect attacks from lunatics from time to time. That’s not new, and not exclusive to any one of us. MOST truth tellers come under attack at some point in time…some more than others. We exist now in an era where truth telling has become a particularly hazardous occupation, but somebody(ies) have to do it, so we manage..and certainly NOT without help. In the end, I think we accomplish the greater good, if only because there are more of US, than there are of THEM. (Lee would call them my ‘defenders’ but in reality, we’re all simply defending the same thing….the truth). Now THAT is something for which to be thankful.

Still, thanks for the warnings. wink

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By Dominick J., November 23, 2007 at 9:07 am Link to this comment

Hi A Khokar, You are welcome here, Dear Friend.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 23, 2007 at 8:21 am Link to this comment

#115237 by A Khokar on 11/23 at 3:46 am: “You have objected whether we all are God Almighty’s subject or otherwise…... And taught him plain speech. 
Chapter 2 (Al-Baqarah): Verse 29 How can you disbelieve in Allah? You were without life and He gave you life…”

Oh, really A Khokar, I am sorry to leave you in your misery, this Thanksgiving Day…....... so lets get to the “plain speech” and leave behind all the prejudical royalist “God’s subjects” and “He” as the unendearing male deity (absent a female one, to suit your further bigotry, of course).

In another topic, we are discussing the jailing and lashing of a young woman rape victim. You have studiously avoided that subject, I think. As you say, “the arrogance comes in and starts making its nests”. Why? Your precious fantasies and illusions of great esteem?

This is NOT a matter of whether you (or I) live in the USA or not. Truthdig welcomes us to post here in cyberspace. So, lets get on with it…... thus, “truth (should) be upheld and should always come as first” if you really want to see yourself as a “dear friend of ‘Truth’.

I think that even a crawling dog wishes to see itself as esteemed in its master’s eyes. Thus, wishing to be a mere “subject” of another (god or human) is as pathetic and impoverished a spiritual state as it is possible to assume. Regardless, you seen to aspire to that.

Thus, through your imagined fawning to earn undeserved esteem, you then imagine yourself as “far superior”. What a hypocrite - whether Christian or Jew or Moslem, uhh! I think that you have sadly failed in your duty to live up to your God-given “faculty of rational analysis”, AK.

You (and I) will indeed be “accountable for our preferences” and that is why, today, I am here to “correct YOUR oars” so that you stay on right course, ha ha. That is Karma! So give up this “special subjects” presumptiousness of yours and be ONE with your Creator as was intended for all men AND women.

Let the light of Inspiration and Intuition flow through you and do not ever color it again with such unworthy thoughts. It will take you to the Stars - but not by standing on others’ necks or even cringing like a dog to another as master. Many have to learn this….....

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By A Khokar, November 23, 2007 at 4:46 am Link to this comment

#115072 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/21 at 9:56 pm

You have objected whether we all are God Almighty’s subject or otherwise. Douglas; although we human being are one of his creation like all His other creations but we are different from others because we are made; far superior. All the other creations have a set design, a specific purpose to perform and no hereafter tie-ups. They don’t deviate from their instinctive imprints; where as our Gracious God created ‘man’ and taught him the ‘Word’ by the pen as well as a ‘plain speech to express’. Our God also gave us the faculty of rational analysis and power to weigh the options to respond. This makes us superior but also holds us accountable for our preferences at the end. Further more; to make it sure that we remain on right tracks; He keeps on sending His Messengers to correct our oars, so that we stay on right course.

That is why we are His special subjects?

About addressing all as ‘Dear Friends’; I suppose; on this Truthdig forum all the members strive very hard to dig the truth out during their course of discussions. The aim is that truth be upheld and should always come as first. Members contributing here may be called as friends or dear friends of ‘Truth’.

Your prescription; Yes I do agree that we all require bowl relieving agents at some stage or the other, but in describing the prescription one should be careful that the good feelings of civility are not forgotten; otherwise the arrogance comes in and starts making its nests.

Btw; I don’t live in USA.
——————————————-
Love for all, Hatred for none

References:-
The Koran(55-Al-Rahman v:1 to 5)
[55:1]In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful. 
[55:2] The Gracious God. 
[55:3] He taught the Qur’an. 
[55:4] He created man, 
[55:5] And taught him plain speech. 
Chapter 2 (Al-Baqarah): Verse 29
How can you disbelieve in Allah? You were without life and He gave you life, and then He will cause you to die, then restore you to life, and then to Him shall you be made to return.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 21, 2007 at 10:56 pm Link to this comment

#115056 by A Khokar on 11/21 at 8:35 pm: “...We better know that we all are here; as a subject of God Almighty. He made us live here on this planet Earth, as per rules of the game set by Him….”

AK, I don’t know how you can call people “dear friends” and then spew that awful stuff over them (us here). Then again, I don’t understand how you can use the term “Love for all, Hatred for none” and repetitively peddle such bigoted garbage either.

You really need to take something for that, AK, whatever it is, before it gets you down, uhh. Perhaps a good dose of laxatives would do…...

People are not “subjects” of anyone or any god. That is something that monarchists fail to understand. If you prefer the delusion of someone else being in control, then you “better” go live in England or Saudi Arabia.

The same applies re dictating “rules” and you again had “better” speak to whoever “made (you) live here” as obviously nothing you do or think is of your own volition. No god ever made any rules, only people who want to control others…...

Maybe when you finally get your “new wheels” you’ll be able to grow up - or leave town!

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By A Khokar, November 21, 2007 at 9:35 pm Link to this comment

Dear friends,
We better know that we all are here; as a subject of God Almighty. He made us live here on this planet Earth, as per rules of the game set by Him.
He keeps on sending His prophets and messengers to guide us through. In our joy or sorrow we ought to turn to him. We better; abide by the rules and be at guard that this society is not derailed.

We don’t have to invent new wheels of our own…that too; just for the lust.
———————————————
Love for all, Hatred for none

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By Dominick J., November 21, 2007 at 8:45 am Link to this comment

As a Gay man I want to say a BIG thank you to Desmond TuTu and I want to thank all of the churchs and religious organizations, especially UCC, for their outstanding stand against the Religious Right and their UN-Christian view of just about everyting.

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By rowman, November 20, 2007 at 6:15 am Link to this comment

Cyrena,
People are 500 X more rude on line. Best to ignore, you never know when you have a genuine lunatic flaming you. See this recent article http://www.newscientist.com/blog/technology/2007/11/dont-flame-me-bro.html

Cyrena and I are at opposite ends of spectrum on most issues – a difference in opinion is certainly no reason to attack someone. It’s good to have dialog and debate but personal attacks is uncalled for. If all you really want to do is dialog with people that agree with you all the time, I think you are in the wrong place….. Or perhaps I am odd man out here wink

This Thanksgiving, you should be thankful that Cyrena did not drop the Internet Harassment law on you for being foolish.

Happy Thanksgiving to all. May He bless you and keep you, cause His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you, May he poor out his countenance upon you and give you peace.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 20, 2007 at 2:13 am Link to this comment

#114634 by cyrena on 11/20 at 12:28 am: “In the earlier hate filled one that was removed, he got you and Ernest Canning confused. He accused YOU of being a defender of me, for repeating something to Ernest, that had nothing to do with you….”

That’s all right, cyrena, I’ll still defend you….. but who could possibly ever confuse me with Ernesto, uhhh?!?! Must be crazy, ha ha….....

Thank you for your kind Thanksgiving greetings! Same to all…...

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By Verne Arnold, November 20, 2007 at 1:42 am Link to this comment

#114608 by Paracelsus on 11/19 at 8:49 pm
(129 comments total)

@ #114448 by Verne Arnold

I think he had the Israeli Firsters all angry at him. Hi Lee!

Boy, I don’t know…I stepped out of this when it went soooo farrrr off topic.

It seems too bad when people have to start name calling.  I have transgressed a time or three and always regret it.  There have been posters who remain on point and use intelligence and facts to support their position sans emotion.  The art of debate is dying; where are the great orators of yore.  The only one I can think of is Senator Robert Byrd, but he’s a voice in the wilderness unfortunately.

Anyway…I don’t think anybody has ever won a religious debate.

Desmond Tutu is not letting his Anglican Church affiliation get in the way of truth.  He is a true crusader for the everyday human and their human rights.  Good on him.

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By cyrena, November 20, 2007 at 1:28 am Link to this comment

Douglas,
With any luck, this guy is gonna finally run out of whatever drugs it is he’s taking, because at this point, he’s gonna either OD or finally just burn right out. Seriously, he’s like on a total binge of some sort, and it’s of little value to bother with him. Seriously.

It’s almost unfortunate that the most recent hate post was removed before I could link it up properly to his earlier posts, that show he is simply ‘all over the place’ and…in short…out of his mind. In the earlier hate filled one that was removed, he got you and Ernest Canning confused. He accused YOU of being a defender of me, for repeating something to Ernest, that had nothing to do with you. That’s just out totally blasted off off the charts he is. (and no, not in a ‘good way”)

Here’s what he said to Ernest, (that even I wasn’t involved in)

•  RE: #113613 by Ernest Canning on 11/14 at 3:48 pm
Hey, Ya know what Ernie ...
You come off as a left wing extremist ...
and whether or not I get your approval
means nothing to me ... oh, and by the
way you also come across as a pompous ass!
But, he doesn’t even remember WHO he said that to, (or probably where he even wrote it) because in a later comment from me…directed to Ernest, I repeated it. (that Ernest was a left-wing extremist and a pompous ass - just being facietious). So, he got pissed about me repeating to Ernest, what he himself had called him. (and only because he had called me the same, along with multiple other things). So, he’s still whining about a comment from me way back when, without of course indicating what may FINALLY have provoked it. (These whiny types never do).

Still, he’s been all over the place in these attacks on me personally, (and you’re right..it has been sustained, constant, UNPROVOKED from the beginning) and has become worse with every post, and nobody ever called him on any of it.

So now that somebody has finally caught it, he’s perturbed. Like I said, give ‘em enough rope and they will hang themselves. And, if anybody really wants to follow this stuff, (though I don’t recommend it) the link for most of it is here. Anyone can follow the chronology of his deeds, and just watch how he sinks into the frenzy that whatever drugs or natural genetics has wrought for him. What is more obvious than anything else, (for those who want to bother with going through his ‘history’) is the he’s the typical type that accuses everyone else, of EXACTLY the type of behavior and or disabled mentality that he himself has exhibited. The difference of course, is that he can’t stop himself. He’s like obsessed. He’s mental. Seriously mental. Since mentally ill people don’t KNOW that they’re mentally ill, they have no way to discern that others CAN figure it out. (which is why he keeps incriminating himself, and then blaming it on others).

http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/20071111_oil_is_king/

We’re talking about a really miserable person here, and while he’s not alone in that, (we know there are others) it’s fortunate for those who have been reading and posting here for as long as we have, to know that they are small in number. And like I said, at some point, he’s either gonna run out of whatever drugs he’s on, and have to take a break; Or, he will have so terrorized enough other people, (who actually ARE in his physical presence) that they’ll have to do something with him.

Meantime, just ignore him. I’m sure whomever the PTB are at truthdig have an eye on him now, (maybe the police too) and they’ll deal with it as they see fit. (everyone else has figured it out, and they can also figure out that all he’s done is copy from me or others, in order to make his most recent comments.) But, people like this are so out of it, that they just assume everyone else is as well. Never occurs to them to realize that they’ve left permanent footsteps of their own mental imbalance all over the place.

Thanksgiving greetings to you and all.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 19, 2007 at 11:48 pm Link to this comment

#114625 by cyrena on 11/19 at 10:29 pm: “And, the old adage applies nearly everytime….. give them enough rope, and they will hang themselves. (because they always reveal themselves so easily)...... for every biblical story, there is a different interpretation…”

Yes, this IS what happens with the “biblical stuff”, cyrena, but then people still just swallow it blindly - instead of stringing’em up with it, uhh! Such is the nature of ignorance…...

Quotes from Information Clearing House: “The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men” (Plato) and also “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross” (Sinclair Lewis). http://tinyurl.com/dy6yy

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By cyrena, November 19, 2007 at 11:29 pm Link to this comment

#114609 by Douglas Chalmers

•  It seems to have been made to disappear - and just as well, too!!!

Well, it seems like you’re right Douglas. Must be one of those ‘Ask and you shall receive’ moments? Then again, maybe Nabih has a magic touch.

Or, somebody. I don’t know what the deal is with The Reason, since I never heard of that person before. There is another poster that goes by just ‘reason’ though I’ve never read anything from him or her that would lead me to believe they are one and the same. Still, who knows. Lots of crazies out there.  My guess though, is that this one was added to the Lee posses….the same types that gang up together and decide to attack truth wherever they find it. And, the old adage applies nearly everytime…give them enough rope, and they will hang themselves. (because they always reveal themselves so easily).

Meantime, I’m staying out of the Biblical arguments, other than to say that IF I remember correctly, (and yep, it’s been a long time) Jesus the Christ did in fact seem to display some concern for the hungry and the diseased. Didn’t he cure some lepers, and turn some water into wine, and some loaves into fish? Or, was it the other way around? I just remember that he came up with some food when there wasn’t enough to go around, and I do remember about the lepers as well.

So, seems to me like he did have some concern about these issues. Now of course I realize that for every biblical story, there is a different interpretation, (which is why I figured I only needed to read it the one time). Still, I don’t think it’s NOT in keeping with at least SOME part of that book, to be at least aware of these issues of poverty and disease.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 19, 2007 at 11:24 pm Link to this comment

114618 by Lee on 11/19 at 10:11 pm: “On this website a few days ago ... cyrena called me “a chicken shit coward” ... and (along with you) other vulgar expletives. I responded by calling her…”

Well,  actually, I didn’t complain to Truthdig but I have this time since you ahve intentionally repeated your foul expression. That is a continued act of harassment as well as of malice against cyrena.

You know that - and I agree with her assessment of you, Lee. I don’t need to resort to “vulgar expletives” in the way you do. Truthdig’s attitude is “Thank you! We appreciate your assistance in keeping Truthdig tidy and civil….”

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By thomas billis, November 19, 2007 at 11:17 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Dear Yanni and Rowman unless they cut Leviticus out of your bible it certainly takes you people a long time to read.Let me help google it.Word of warning to both of you when you challenge non beleivers they are generally right about the Bible becuase they actually read it and then have to think about it before deciding it is nonsense.I gather by your non understanding of Leviticus you two are in the tell me and I will believe club.I am sure Mr Robertson appreciates your donations.

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By Lee, November 19, 2007 at 11:11 pm Link to this comment

RE: #114609 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/19 at 8:51 pm

On this website a few days ago ... cyrena called me “a chicken shit coward” ...
and (along with you) other vulgar expletives. I responded by calling her a hyena ... and you two acted so indignant that you got Truthdig to kick my posting off this site. Well, obviously you can both dish it out, but you can’t take it, so you and Truthdig resorted to censorship. I have read numerous postings which by comparison make my comments seem quite tame. Although I have not agreed with many of yours or Truthdig’s comments, at least I believed that this site offered a level playing field, which above all else guaranteed equal freedom of speech to everyone. However, it now appears that if someone gets their feathers ruffled, they can run crying to Truthdig and have their opponents posting removed.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 19, 2007 at 9:51 pm Link to this comment

#114511 by Nabih Ammari on 11/19 at 10:13 am:

#114489 by Lee
“CYRENA .......”    Why would you call me such names…?”

It seems to have been made to disappear - and just as well, too!!! To parahprahse #114438 by Howard:-

Why would you say something like that?  Uncalled for.  Have you no shame, Lee?

The same goes for #114506 by The Reason and other idiots who have so far survived here….....

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By Paracelsus, November 19, 2007 at 9:49 pm Link to this comment

@ #114448 by Verne Arnold

I think he had the Israeli Firsters all angry at him. Hi Lee!

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By cyrena, November 19, 2007 at 9:39 pm Link to this comment

#114397 by Nabih Ammari

Nabih,

Thanks so much for posting this. I appreciate it more than you probably know, having become a target for the psychopaths that abound. (which I’m sure you’ve noted).

So, I would appreciate it ANYWAY, but I especially appreciate it at this particular moment.

It’s very much a compliment to know that COMMON SENSE is recognizable by some. In the long run, that’s what makes the difference. It’s what I sincerely believe will be the salvation of us ALL, even the hate mongers.


Best to you, and thanks again.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 19, 2007 at 9:14 pm Link to this comment

#114558 by thomas billis on 11/19 at 4:55 pm: “You can bet if Jesus came back tomorrow the leader of the pack to run him out of town would be Pat Robertson et al….”

That’s exactly what happened the last time, thomas billis. Enlightened people not wanted here!!!

#114537 by A Khokar on 11/19 at 1:11 pm: ”

Yes, I understand what you are trying to say, AK, but “transgression, rebellion and sinful act” are interpretive terminologies - they are not fact. The one fact is, though, that the real God is not judgemental.

As ‘thomas billis’ mentioned about Leviticus (both Christian and Jewish), the book is concerned with legal rules and priestly ritual. These are solely human constructs - and are about control, not freedom.

But, as in a ‘modern’ theocracy, priests were the lawyers and magistrates. Thus, it was mans law and not God’s law which they propounded - but of their own making. There was no legislature and the ruler/king was the ultimate judge and his court was the ultimate court of appeal.

Why do people still want to inflict such shit upon themselves? No, they want to inflict it on each other!!!! Democracy is still a fantasy to them and they prefer their guilt and shame trips, especially if they can absolve themselves by pillorying others with it.

Interesting how they had it all mixed in with “love one’s neighbor as oneself” as a profane kind of usurpation of any possible concept of divinity or potential human spirituality.

And, by the way, the Koran is NOT “the latest book of God Almighty”, AK. It never ceases to amaze me how the ignorant can always give themselves the right to declare which is God’s and which is not. That applies to so-called holy writings, too.

TRUTH is to be found in many places and is written by many people. It is a never-ending work as the continuing Creation is (apparently) never-ending. Your Chapter 7 (Al-A`raf) is nothing more than human condemnation through lack of understanding.

It is obvious that, even in those days, the religion of the region was being manipulated to control people by those in authority. Words like subverted, abominations, sinners, righteousness, wicked and rebellious are both interpretative and prejudical.

Terms like “Turn them out, your town, take pride in their purity, We saved him and We gave wisdom” are likewise both hypocritical and prejudicial and intended to do harm through vain self-righteousness. They do not have the welfare of all of the people in mind.

“You approach men with lust instead of women…” is an observation, not a reason for condemnation. It really means that there are indeed people who are sexually stimulated by their own sex. The reasons are hormonal and cannot be avoided.

The reality is that, since times immemorial, people have chosen to use any perceived differences in their group to marginalize and to denigrate individuals and minorities to their own advantage. Prejudice is the real SIN!!!

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By Paracelsus, November 19, 2007 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment

Calling All Isaeli Firsters, and Wavers of the Bloody Shirt of The Shoa


“Tutu preached a message of forgiveness during a 1989 trip to Israel’s Yad Vashem museum, saying “Our Lord would say that in the end the positive thing that can come is the spirit of forgiving, not forgetting, but the spirit of saying: God, this happened to us. We pray for those who made it happen, help us to forgive them and help us so that we in our turn will not make others suffer.”[12] Some found this statement offensive, with Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wiesenthal Center calling it “a gratuitous insult to Jews and victims of Nazism everywhere.” [13] Tutu was subjected to racial slurs during this visit to Israel, with vandals writing “Black Nazi pig” on the walls of the St. George’s Cathedral in East Jerusalem, where he was staying.[14]

In 2002, when delivering a public lecture in support of divestment, Tutu said “My heart aches. I say why are our memories so short. Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective punishment, the home demolitions, in their own history so soon? Have they turned their backs on their profound and noble religious traditions? Have they forgotten that God cares deeply about the downtrodden?”[8] He argued that Israel could never live in security by oppressing another people, and continued, “People are scared in this country [the US], to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful - very powerful. Well, so what? For goodness sake, this is God’s world! We live in a moral universe. The apartheid government was very powerful, but today it no longer exists. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosevic, and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust.”[8] The latter statement was criticized by some Jewish groups, including the Anti-Defamation League.[15][16] When he edited and reprinted parts of his speech in 2005, Tutu replaced the phrase “Jewish lobby” with “pro-Israel lobby”.[17]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Tutu

I wanna hear you say it, “You nazi!”

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By thomas billis, November 19, 2007 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To my previous post It is Leviticus 20-9 and Leviticus 21-9.Matter of fact maybe you ought to read all of Leviticus instead of criricizing those who are familar with it.That is the problem with the beleivers they do not even know what it is in the Bible.Like I said originally Jesus Christ is the only impediment to todays Christianity.You can bet if Jesus came back tomorrow the leader of the pack to run him out of town would be Pat Robertson et al.

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By thomas billis, November 19, 2007 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To all you bible freaks read Leviticus 20 and Leviticus 21 it is the part of Leviticus that is called the Holy Code.I will be accepting your apologies right here.

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A Khokar's avatar

By A Khokar, November 19, 2007 at 2:11 pm Link to this comment

#114433 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/19 at 3:19 am

Sex itself may not be the ‘reward’ in self but the joys and pleasure that we derive out of the intimate communion (of male and female) are certainly a ‘pleasant reward’. Homosexuality may also be drawing some pleasure; as in the process, the individuals do activate and manipulate the body G-spots to stimulate them selves. Invariably this activation does not serve the prime purpose of mechanism of nature laid out in advancing the human race. One is free to indulge in it but that will be considered as an abuse. This abuse as I understand is transgression which is a rebellion and a sin full act.

Where as all the old testimonies from Almighty God delivered by His messengers forbade us to indulge into this act of lust; the latest book of God Almighty; Koran also very explicitly describes this ‘committal’ by the people of Lot* in the lust and abomination, and that how they were punished for their rebellious, wicked behaviour:-

In Chapter 29 (Al-`Ankabut): Verse 29
‘And call to mind Lot when he said to his people, ‘You commit an abomination such as no one among mankind has ever committed before you’.

In Chapter 7 (Al-A`raf): Verse 82 ‘You approach men with lust instead of women. Nay, you are a people who exceed all bounds.’ 
(83)’And the only answer of his people was that they said, ‘Turn them out of your town, for they are men who take pride in their purity.’(84) ‘And We saved him (Lot) and his family except his wife; she was of those who stayed behind’. (85) ‘And We rained upon them a rain. Now see, what was the end of the sinners’. 

In Chapter 53 (Al-Najm): Verse 54 ‘And He overthrew the subverted cities of the people of Lot.’ 

In Chapter 21 (Al-Anbiya’): Verse 75 ‘And to Lot We gave wisdom and knowledge. And We saved him from the city which practised abominations. They were indeed a wicked and rebellious people.’ 

It is matter of thinking and our choosing; all left to us that either we adopt the route of righteousness or wickedness.
————————————————
Love for all, Hatred for none.

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By rowman, November 19, 2007 at 1:31 pm Link to this comment

#114518 by thomas billis
You might want to read my previous post and get some education on the subject before you try to speak to it.  Your invention of events looks silly.

Do you even know what Leviticus is?

Yani is right to criticize you earlier on this. Funny thing is, you respond right back with more fiction! Nowhere in the law does it say “burn a prostitute”. Chapter 18 addresses Unlawful sexual relations. And punishment Chapter 20… “must be cut off from their people”... Does not say anything about burning anyone.

Putting children to death! What nonsense are you making up here?

Please cite your references.

Right now, you’re looking mighty foolish.

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By Yani, November 19, 2007 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: #114518 by thomas billis
You prove my point. You have no idea what you are talking about and make stuff up.

Show me one reference to a prostitute being burned to death.

The “insolent children”… are you referring to the Roman persecution of the Jewish children?

The rest of your post in just ignorant ramblings. You have no credibility on this subject and should stop spreading your lies.

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By thomas billis, November 19, 2007 at 11:37 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Dear Yani comment#113464you leave so much out of Levitticus.I guess you believe that insolent children should be put to death.Or I am sure your favorite burning prostitutes to death.I do not have to make much up the real stuff is crazy enough.By ythe way how come the true believers take what fits in their own conception of hatred and leave out the parts they do not agree with.If it is truly all the word of God then it all has equal importance.If you are one of those I feel for your kids and the women you are cheating with.

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By rowman, November 19, 2007 at 11:15 am Link to this comment

#114508 by Howard

Urrmm. Howard… It would be the same. Take a read.

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By Nabih Ammari, November 19, 2007 at 11:13 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#114489 by Lee
“CYRENA THE HYAENA”

Why would you call me such names?

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By Howard, November 19, 2007 at 11:03 am Link to this comment

RE:  #114497 by rowman on 11/19 at 9:10 am

Now go ahead and show ‘em the the site with the article: “How to Destroy the Christians”

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By The Reason, November 19, 2007 at 10:54 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#114489 by Lee

Lee is my new best friend! Tell it like is!

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By rowman, November 19, 2007 at 10:10 am Link to this comment

In particular, there is some very good info under Fruit http://www.ariel.org/ffruit.htm#top

For you anti semitics – there is even an article titled “How to Destroy the Jews”

Enjoy.

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By rowman, November 19, 2007 at 10:03 am Link to this comment

Sad to see so many here mis quote and represent the Christian/ Judeo texts. It is very evident that few, if any here, have ever studied it let alone read it.

There seems to be a whole lot of personal injection. How you think it should be or What you think it should mean. This is often done with no knowledge and a faulty hermeneutic. It is not just a problem here – it is systemic in our world. I encounter many churches, pastors and preachers who are just as guilty. They teach incorrect doctrine with no concept of a hermeneutic. People are left to pick up the pieces and struggle to reconcile critical aspects.

Referring to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob – is it not He that defines the rules?  Do you know what is actually said and do you understand it? Are you really in a position to comment on something you know little of?

Far better to be educated on the subject than to speak from ignorance.

To anyone seeking to learn and understand the texts (regardless of your position) – here is a resource that can assist you http://www.ariel.org

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By Lee, November 19, 2007 at 9:30 am Link to this comment

THE LAUGHABLE WORLD OF CYRENA THE HYAENA ... ha ha ha

A collection of myths for those of you who are just as gulible as she is ... ha ha ha

Cyrena the Hyaena sez: the world must disregard all information received from all major network and cable news feeds ... except for the one Cyrena takes as gospel ... Al Jezeera ... ha ha ha

Cyrena the Hyaena sez: if you hate right wing president George Bush so much, like she does, that entitles you to worship and promote his left wing polar counterparts, Amajinadad and Chavez (who are just as dispicable) Hey Cyrena, you’re no different than Carl Rove, with your condescending attitude, and equally hateful advice ... ha ha ha

Cyrena the Hyaena sez: even though you say it’s just the administration and policies you hate ... You can support opposing despots around the world who are committed to destroying America ... this will win you points with your fellow left-wing Truthdig commentators ... in fact they will always come to your aid with postings that trash anyone who disagrees with you ... of course you always have to come to their aid too ... that’s more important than stating the truth ... ha ha ha

Cyrena sez: Whenever possible, reinterpret history to support the left-wing agenda ...and, always reinterperate Truthdig as a place to bury the truth ... ha ha ha

Cyrena the Hyaena sez: “Oh, unlike you ... I’m of the people and for the people ... of course every time she gets a chance she’ll remind you how she descended from 8 generations of Americans, to establish her pseudo elitist standing on Trughdig ... ha ha ha

Cyrena the Neanderthal sez: It doesn’t matter that the borders of countries around the world have changed over and over again ... she sez: whoever was there first gets perpetual possession of the land ... therefore, the Geico cavemen shall inherit the earth ... ha ha ha

Cyrena the Hyaena sez: how dare you people with only a dozen postings challenge Cyrena, who has tallied up over 1580 postings. Like Cyrena, you can spend every waking moment posting criticisms about everything and anything ... or, you can get a life ... ha ha ha

Cyrena the Hyaena sez: I can call people a chicken shit coward ... as well as other vulgar expletives ... but if someone dares to accuse my soul mate, Douglas Chalmers of being a pompous ass (which he is) Both Dougie and I will enlist other crazies who agree with us, and accuse you of communicating in a childish manner ... ha ha ha

Cyrena the Hyaena sez: “I’ve inflicted my caustic opinions and criticisms on Truthdig readers over 1580 times, however, if anyone dares to criticize me ... I’m going to take it personal ... ha ha ha

... Oh, and Cyrena, regarding sex, maybe if you tried it just once (with another person, or the opposite sex that is) you might not be so angry all the time ... ha ha ha

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By Will, November 19, 2007 at 9:28 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#114452 by Non Credo
“I really despise your ideology, and I think it’s one of the key elements ruining my country. And because of your ideology, which you zealously defend as though it were the very core of your identity”

Very same may be said of you and your ideology Mr. Non Credo.  I have seen you over and over again, perpetuate a lie and regurgitate dis information.  You rely heavily on others and cite their work as fact where no facts exist. Conduct no research of your own to validate information nor do you seek truth – you only seek that which fits your twisted ideology. You follow these conspiracy theorists and their rhetoric like a lemming.

You and others have developed such a hatred for Bush and the Republican party that you will say and do anything to see them loose power. No matter the cost. You fail to see how trying to address a negative with another negative harms the American people as a whole. Constantly telling the world we are criminals, that we are evil, that we ….

You forgot the “WE” in the American people. That is the problem with this country!

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By DivaJean, November 19, 2007 at 8:21 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“How on earth am I to compare the gay movement to the black movement, when gays have not had the horrific misfortune of suffering through things such as apartheid or Segregation? They have not been discriminated against in such a manner as that they could not get jobs to support their families, and if this did happen, there would be much uproar. There is no comparison, I believe, with the gay movement and the black movement.”

The reason why is that gays and lesbians can hide. We can quietly suffer the indignations poured out on us as society in general debates as to whether we live a choice or our biology, as to whether we have suffered enough as a minority, and what rights and what to call them are “appropriate.” Many of us just give up fighting after a certain point. Its easier to shut up, take a morsel of what rights are granted you, and live your life.

I currently am so priviledged as to be able to support my family of 6- two adults and 4 kids we have jointly adopted. My job does provide health insurance to my partner- but I have ZERO job mobility where I am and ZERO options to find other employment that will support us similarly. The company can decide to get rid of domestic benefits at any time. I end up in a higher tax bracket, with no additional income, and am taxed higher on the “implied benefit” of having my partner so covered. Would staight people put up with this? Think not. I would be out in the streets screaming and fighting for more, but in the meantime, I need to support my family.

And enough about the whole godless queers argument. It really sounds stupid considering how the fight is towards inclusion of the church. If queers are so godless, why would they want to be involved in the church?

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By bachu, November 19, 2007 at 6:42 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

there is no shortage of apostate preachers in the end times. What other proof do you need?

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By Verne Arnold, November 19, 2007 at 6:05 am Link to this comment

Chuckle…I haven’t seen Desmond Tutu’s name mentioned in many, many posts…why?  Surely his person is worthy of many comments with his name associated…he has after all, walked the talk and walked the long, long walk.  This is a man among men!

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By Howard, November 19, 2007 at 5:01 am Link to this comment

RE: #114418 by Non Credo on 11/18 at 10:47 pm
    Non Credo says :

  “Would you like an armored bulldozer with that, Howie? After you’re finished dining and shopping, you can level some Palestinian orchards and then call it a day.

================================================
===================================================

Why would you say something like that?  Uncalled for.  Have you no shame?

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 19, 2007 at 4:19 am Link to this comment

#114423 by A Khokar on 11/18 at 11:56 pm: “On the other hand, Locust or green fly or caterpillars squander and waste the flagrant flowers by eating up and destroying them. Their greed and act of rampage earns them only vexation and nectar turned into gall. These assailants always leave their bad smell behind….”

That is not science, A Khokar. Locusts and flies were created by the same “divine hand” as created bees which sting or your pleasantly amorous (to you) sexual partner.

This an old testament version of creation and was designed for teaching to naive children in primitive societies of 1,000’s of years ago. Please…....

Those who rape are still justified by your interpretation. Those who force their wives to give birth to a dozen or more children in almost as many years, as even Western socieities did in the recent past, are indeed transgressors.

For humans, sex is not “a reward”. Do you understand why???

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A Khokar's avatar

By A Khokar, November 19, 2007 at 12:56 am Link to this comment

A pleasant reward of Sex

Nectar and fragrant delights are the divinely blessings, ordained by Almighty God to the bees to receive a feast of regale and delicacy from the flowers. Bee gets this as a pleasant reward while serving the divinely mechanism of nature; of transferring the pollen of flowers to the stigma to pollinate the flowers. Bees may not be aware of it that God almighty, the creator has so well designed and equipped them to serve the purpose of productivity as a regnant of ecosystem on our adorable planet…the Earth. Bees enjoy the nectarous drink and ambrosial feed. They spend their pleasant time in the fragrant surroundings while performing the delicate job of eco in the nature. This is a guaranteed reward of nature as long the cause is served and bees do not destroy the synthesis, beauty, colour and sweet smells of flowers.

On the other hand, Locust or green fly or caterpillars squander and waste the flagrant flowers by eating up and destroying them. Their greed and act of rampage earns them only vexation and nectar turned into gall. These assailants always leave their bad smell behind. The pleasure, the sweetness and tastes of nectarous, ambrosial feast and basking in the perfumed surroundings is little known to them.

Like wise in the human specie nature has also vested an instinct of attraction of opposite sex. All of us, we do carry few G-spots with in our body. Manipulation of these G-spot by touching, caressing and copulation stimulate our hormones. The sensational pleasure that we derive and reap during the process of manipulation results into transferring the male sperms to the female. The Pleasure derived from the sex may be a pleasant reward but the prime aim remains; the conception of female to advance the human race, like pollination of flower carried out by bees on this planet earth.

Having known the knowledge of our G-spots and experience of deriving pleasure by manipulation and copulation; if we only aim at deriving pleasure as in homosexuality; we are not serving the prime purpose of mechanism of nature laid out in advancing the human race; we stand transgressors.

———————————-
Love for all, Hatred for none

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 18, 2007 at 11:43 pm Link to this comment

#114402 by Yani on 11/18 at 8:52 pm: “...what is detestable in Gods eyes…”

So sad that some here are still on about using such garbage to address decent human beings with. Assuming that their Creator is as vicious a human as they are….... they seek to justify their own warped attitudes and misunderstandings, uhh. Utter crap!

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 18, 2007 at 11:35 pm Link to this comment

#114412 by Non Credo on 11/18 at 10:21 pm: “...many Buddhist purists regard this as a kind of backsliding, reflecting the inability of less enlightened, more materialistic souls to do without some sort of god(s)...”

Can’t do without God, can’t do without woman (man), can’t do without man (woman)! What does this really mean, then?

If I said that we are tri-sexual beings, would that explain it? As we are all a male or a female sex polarity, we are also intrinsically linked to the opposite - and to a third (apparently unmanifest) innate quality known as Spirit.

Just about every religion except Christianity understands this - although the founder of Christianity most certainly knew it. It IS the Path to Enlightenment!

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 18, 2007 at 10:53 pm Link to this comment

114403 by Non Credo on 11/18 at 8:52 pm: “No, but you implied that I was endorsing materialism as the alternative, in stating that I do not believe in God….”

Ahh, please stop taking this personally, Non Credo. I didn’t actually accuse you - go back to #114306, if you will and you can see that I said:-

“...Oh, the things that Americans “could do” if they actually believed in anything at all, Non Credo…... Materialism is NOT an excuse for a belief system - it is merely a cargo cult!...”

That was simply intended to be an ‘aside’ from the main topic and was only indirectly related to anything you said. It was a general statement that I was making….....

But Buddhism is full of ‘deities’, too, actually. They are based on the traditional Hindu and Tibetan deities and their ancient mysticism has continued to color Buddhism as we see it today.


#114399 by Howard on 11/18 at 8:37 pm: “Yepper, you 2 guys take Jesus.  I’ll take God…”

Not a problem, Howard, but when it was said by Jesus that “you enter the ‘kingdom’ of ‘heaven’ through me”, it was really a description of the path one should follow to achieve Enlightenment.  He didn’t want followers (he was no Bhagwan!) and he wanted people to learn from his example and then to find their own way - to God! Understand?

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By Yani, November 18, 2007 at 9:52 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#114364 by thomas billis:

Where do you come up with this stuff? Do you lay awake at night making this up?

Jesus was a Jew. He was the Messiah, the “promised one”. A fulfillment of Jewish prophesies. The one who came to free the Jews from the Law, who will return again. It was the rejection of Messiah by His Chosen that he extended salvation to Gentile. Jews who believe Jesus was not the Messiah are sometime referred to as “incomplete Jews”.

You need to get your facts straight. Homosexuality was against Jewish Law as given to them by God and it was very clear:
“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination” (Leviticus 18:22). “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them” (Leviticus 20:13).

Did Jesus come and say this was OK now to do? No he did not but he also did not say that it is ok to murder now either. Draw your own conclusions of what is detestable in Gods eyes but make no mistake, it was not acceptable behavior prior to Jesus.

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By Howard, November 18, 2007 at 9:37 pm Link to this comment

RE:  #114396 by Douglas Chalmers on 11/18 at 8:20 pm
(1225 comments total)

” #114364 by thomas billis on 11/18 at 5:34 pm

The only thing that gets in the way of todays Christianity is Jesus….. Todays christians are old testament people.In fact they are Jews….. They would have to become good Jews before they could hope to be good Christians….”

So sad, so true, thomas billis…..... no wonder they still keep Jesus nailed to a cross - to shut him up!!! “
==============================
========================
====================

Yepper,  you 2 guys take Jesus.  I’ll take God !

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By Nabih Ammari, November 18, 2007 at 9:21 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

cyrena,
The more I read your posts,the more I realize that the
horizon of your vision and envision has a remarkable
capacity to digest,absorb and assimilate provocative
thoughts and ideas as long as they make sequential
logic or what is commonly called “COMMON SENSE”.
Your honest and straight forward comments are highly
appreciated because of what I post is the distillation of
mind and heart.Nothing more, nothing less.William
Shakespeare once said/wrote:
“No legacy as lasting as honesty”.
cynera,thank you for being what you are.
Sincerely,
Nabih

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 18, 2007 at 9:20 pm Link to this comment

#114340 by Non Credo on 11/18 at 1:44 pm: “...disbelief in God does not imply materialism. For example, Buddhism, in many of it forms…”

I don’t think that Americans have suddenly embraced Buddhism en masse, Non Credo. Nice if they did, though! I was making a point about materialistic lifestyles….... and its not exclusive to non-believers, either, uhh!


#114353 by desertdude on 11/18 at 4:18 pm: “Jesus never cared about hunger and diease. He cared about mens souls….”

He cared about womens’ souls too, desertdude. That’s more than many males are capable of…....!?!?


#114364 by thomas billis on 11/18 at 5:34 pm
The only thing that gets in the way of todays Christianity is Jesus….. Todays christians are old testament people.In fact they are Jews….. They would have to become good Jews before they could hope to be good Christians….”

So sad, so true, thomas billis…..... no wonder they still keep Jesus nailed to a cross - to shut him up!!!

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 18, 2007 at 9:08 pm Link to this comment

#114342 by Reg Stocking on 11/18 at 1:56 pm: “Henry VIII didn’t ditch his wives before they became pregnant.  His overriding concern was having a healthy son to continue the dynasty.  Catherine of Aragon, his first wife, had a series of miscarriages, and his later wives were no more fruitful.  The best-educated guess is that he had a sperm problem.  It wasn’t a simple case of hot pants at all….”

Oh, there are still Henry VIII supporters around, eh, Reg? I guess they must have had strange problems with those tight pants the men used to wear in those days…....??? No wonder the English had to import a “royal family” from Germany in the end, ha ha!

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By thomas billis, November 18, 2007 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The only thing that gets in the way of todays Christianity is Jesus.Every once in a while a Religious leader recognizes that Jesus was about love.The fact that Jesus never said a word about homosexuality does not stop these homophobes from finding obscure passages in the old testament to condone their own homophobia.Todays christians are old testament people.In fact they are Jews.They use Old Testament lingo to legitimize homophobia and a whole host of other insanities and do not listen to the people who the old testament is their only bible.To use an Ann Coulter analogy these are imperfect Jews.They would have to become good Jews before they could hope to be good Christians.

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By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, November 18, 2007 at 5:22 pm Link to this comment

#114353 DesertDude “The object of the church is to save souls, nothing else.”

I wish they’d stick to their objective.

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By desertdude, November 18, 2007 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment

Why is it that so many people like to tell the Church what to do, yet they don’t believe in God themselves? Rev. Tutu says “we have to many problems with hiv, poverty and aids than to worry about Homosexuality.” In case Rev. Tutu dosen’t know that Jesus never cared about hunger and diease. He cared about mens souls. The object of the church is to save souls, nothing else.

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By Reg Stocking, November 18, 2007 at 2:56 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Douglas Chalmers has it all wrong.  Henry VIII didn’t ditch his wives before they became pregnant.  His overriding concern was having a healthy son to continue the dynasty.  Catherine of Aragon, his first wife, had a series of miscarriages, and his later wives were no more fruitful.  The best-educated guess is that he had a sperm problem.  It wasn’t a simple case of hot pants at all.

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By Political Insurgent, November 18, 2007 at 2:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I have no qualms with the homosexuals and I believe everyone should be allowed to live in whatever fashion they wish—this IS supposedly a free society. What I DO have a problem with, HOWEVER, is how some liken the gay movement with the struggles that black people faced in oppressive, white societies. They are, in my opinion, nothing alike.

Homosexuals can come from any background, have any kind of education, come from any country and have any race. This fact is possibly why homosexuality is confused with being a choice. Homosexuals are, after all, not a race. You will find black OR white OR asian homosexuals of a certain social standing, living within a certain income bracket. Black people of a certain time did NOT have the luxury of having that kind of social diversity. How on earth am I to compare the gay movement to the black movement, when gays have not had the horrific misfortune of suffering through things such as apartheid or Segregation? They have not been discriminated against in such a manner as that they could not get jobs to support their families, and if this did happen, there would be much uproar. There is no comparison, I believe, with the gay movement and the black movement.

The plight of the homosexuals has been that some people are unwilling to accept how some people have chosen to live their lives, and what sexual leaning they have taken. The plight of Black people, however, is that they are STILL recovering from being ENSLAVED, USED, condemned as being HALF-HUMAN, compared to LIVESTOCK, persecuted because of their mere COLOR, SUBJUGATED under absurd laws that kept them BACK from gaining proper EDUCATION, from making a salary they could LIVE on, from living as functioning human beings in SOCIETY. As far as I can see, homosexuals are doing fantastically well, considering the era we now live in.

Once again, I am not trying to get jumped on as a homophobe. I am simply stating my opinion that as a black person, I see no resemblance between what the homosexual community has gone through and what Black people have gone through. The Black struggle was the struggle of a RACE. That, in my opinion, far outweighs the struggle of being allowed to live a certain lifestyle.

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By Douglas Chalmers, November 18, 2007 at 10:17 am Link to this comment

#114279 by Non Credo on 11/18 at 5:59 am: “...If I believed in God, I’d ask Him or Her to bless Desmond Tutu….”

Oh, the things that Americans “could do” if they actually believed in anything at all, Non Credo…... Materialism is NOT an excuse for a belief system - it is merely a cargo cult!

Actually, I believe Tutu was on about “Anglicans” rather than homosexuals, though. Interesting that the BBC article mentioned Nigeria. Getting away from English Anglicans is a great idea!

But it is fanciful that the article referred to “the mother Church of England” given that it was (a) instituted by a king, not a priest, and (b) that he used it as his excuse to get rid of his “wives” before they became mothers, uhh.

Still, joining a a Nigerian mission simply because they welcome “conservative” sexist homophobics is hardly a step forward for either the Americans or the Nigerians. Anyway, the “unchangeable truth of the scriptures” is only unchangeable because those people are too “conservative” to ever accept change.

As lack of ability to change renders progress impossible, then these people are effectively regressing. In other words, people have to step past them in order to go forwards. I wonder if they now deny climate change as well as AIDS???

It would hardly matter if there is homosexual activity or if it is a “satanic attack” on their church. The root cause of their problem is in embracing a semi-fake ideology which supports their opinions and bigotries (as usual!).

Using an imaginary “satan” to penalise gay and lesbian activity with jail terms is a step back into a more primitive era. That is disappointing since African people have so much worthwhile energy to give to their churches. Thus, Archbishop Akinola is just another witch-doctor!

I was impressed recently when I visited a church meeting run by a Zimbabwe refugee group. But trance is their main forte and it hardly seemed to matter whether they shouted “Jesus” or the name of some traditional tribal god in order to reach that state or, at least, to have a damn good time.

Why, then, should they be misled by mischevious preachers who have an agenda all of their own - political and materialistic and egotistical?!?! The sin is more in the grandeur of the church, wherever it is, and it is thus always open to the very temptations it preaches against.

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By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, November 18, 2007 at 7:54 am Link to this comment

What little value superstition and myth may have been to people is continually being eroded by churchs’ stupidity and ignorance.  Why is it that, when you have a good thing going (like the USA a couple hundred years ago) does it seem inevitable that you’ll eventually self-destruct?

Churches and economys highly benefited from people’s willingness to be duped for a couple thousand years.  Now they’re screwing themselves, which is perfectly alright by me.

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By Verne Arnold, November 18, 2007 at 4:51 am Link to this comment

Wow, “Truthdigger of the Week”, he should be TD’er of the century.  It’s interesting how he and ex-pres. Carter (both Nobel Prize winners) have been vilified for their correct views of the Palestinian issues.  What a pickle the world is in today.  Everything including values are upside down. 

As “Pogo” said so many years ago, “We have identified the enemy; they is us!”

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By cyrena, November 18, 2007 at 4:47 am Link to this comment

“Our world is facing problems—poverty, HIV and AIDS—a devastating pandemic, and conflict,” the 76-year-old Cape Town clergyman told the BBC.  “In the face of all of that, our Church, especially the Anglican Church, at this time is almost obsessed with questions of human sexuality.”

So true, so true.

And, NOT just the “Anglican Church” but pretty much every other church that I’m aware of. Yep…especially right here in the good ol US of A, and specifically in…you guessed it…the Conservative Christian Red Neck areas, where the ‘morality police’ are always in force, and in droves.

So, what’s up with that peeps? Why the obsession with human sexuality? Can’t find anything else to be obsessed about? Is this why VIAGRA was the fastest drug ever to be approved in the history of the FDA, while we still struggle along looking for cures for cancer and various other debilitating ailments?

I’m just really curious about all of this focus on human sexuality, to the exclusion of whether or not the majority of the populace lives or dies.

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