Leefeller, Mukasey adroitly evaded the core issues involving the definition of torture and the scope of presidential power.  There is no reason whatsoever to expect that he will not side with the president on issues of the so-called “Unitary Executive.”

Mukasey has been accepted to be our next AG, let’s hope he believes and supports the Constitution, but knowing our president, and how he selects generals may provide a clue,  yes men, so the shredding of the Constitution may continue.  Congress and the Senate must be held accountable, but again why would accountability all of a sudden become viable?

#112590 by rowman
•  Cyrena,
I smell some more B.S. You have interviewed how many exactly that have been tortured. Please do expound on this. I would love to see the proof of this. Are you a reporter, author or just a liar? Please see point above about your other lie – I never said it worked.

You “smell” rowman? Humm, georgie boy says the same thing. Maybe you’re ghost writing for him? (Lord knows he stays too drunk and otherwise wigged out to put pen to paper himself).

Sorry though, I’m not expounding on anything for your benefit. Besides, there’s too much stuff available on line, (and in bookstores or libraries if you really wanted to know, and I know you don’t)

So, bottom line rowman, I’m a busy lady, and you’re an asshole moron. So, you’re a waste of time. I’m not even gonna take the time to look up the number of the post where you claimed that “torture works”. But, it sounds like you have a lot of practice in it, so you should know that you’re lying when you claimed that “it works”. UNLESS, as we’ve pointed out before, you just get a really big thrill from the whole process. That’s what I’m inclined to think. I bet your favorite tools are the ‘shock lines’, and you probably just love attaching them to testicles and then pulling the switch. You’re a sick pervert rowman, and everybody sees through it.

And, what you’re smelling is your own shit. You probably love that as well. Crazos like you need only fear yourselves. Talk about a ticking bomb. Somebody needs to torture you, since there’s no telling what you might have rigged up. Then again, you’d probably enjoy that as well.

Rowman, I could give a bleep what you believe.  You are long on accusations and short on intelligence, facts and knowledge.  In your silly little mind, you cannot accept any “evidence” that does not square with your razor-thin world view, so any who convey facts that challenge the validity of the Party line you are daily fed by the conveyors of faux news at Fox must be lying or diplaying “hate” towards you.  It is the same perversion we see from demagogues like Dick Cheney, Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh mischaracterize as the “hate America crowd”  all who oppose corrupt U.S. imperialism abroad or who seek to defend our constitutional liberties against their endless, fascist assault here at home.  Except that, unlike you, Cheney, O’Reilly and Limbaugh know that the line they are spouting is complete B.S.  (I don’t know which is worse—wilful prevaricators like Cheney or fools like you who believe them.  I suppose the former.  People like you don’t know any better.)

Frankly, rowman, and I say this with no malice, you should realize that no one at Truthdig realized what that you were an ignorant fool until you began posting your mindless drivel.

owman,

Two sentences in your last statements seem over the top assumptions, so I address them.

“Is it that hard for you to understand that law enforcement is required to extract information from people that do not want to release it?” 

Your quote is more suited for Fascist Germany or Japan before WWII.  Our rights have already slowly been taken from us, but you have jumped a few steps ahead.  Your statement disregards and shows us you seem to ignore and not believe in individual’s rights, since you characterize people as guilty and required to release extracted information by law enforcement.  You skip due process, and move right on to extracting.  Hitler would love your logic

“I fear you more than I do any terrorist. The hatred you continue to demonstrate (not just to me but to others as well) communicates to the world that you are one step away from going postal. You are a ticking time bomb and unless you get some help and learn to deal with your hatred of others, I fear that you will harm someone.”

First, hatred seems to be all yours and I do not believe your fear is real.  Your twisting of other people’s comments into the realm of terrorist is the distraction tactic used to destroy our liberties and freedoms and shred the Constitution by aleged super patriots.  Hatred has only appeared in your arguments, designed and fabricated by you for your needs.  To accuse people of hatred , would have fit in nicely with Hitlers Germany.   

Rowman, the sad case of events, your lack of logic and reason is partly why our country is in such sad shape, your delusional caustic approach to fear.  Self-destruction should not be an option to protect our county from misguided fear.  A Chicken Little approach to life suits you, but no I. 

Impeachment is on the table, hope for the people, our families, communities and citizens may be around the corner.  I hope the real lies come to light, if the rule of law succeeds, action will be taken against those who worked so hard to impede justice and go to a war on lies.  The rule of law and justice may once again prevail, maybe to your disappointment.

Wow.  None of you have any shame. You are so willing to distort and create flat out lies. I do not see how you differ from the administration you love to hate. You have eyes but do not see, have ears but do not hear. Honestly, I fear you more than I do any terrorist. The hatred you continue to demonstrate (not just to me but to others as well) communicates to the world that you are one step away from going postal. You are a ticking time bomb and unless you get some help and learn to deal with your hatred of others, I fear that you will harm someone.

Is it that hard for you to understand that law enforcement is required to extract information from people that do not want to release it? That torture is not used in these situations. Nowhere did I ever say torture worked. That is a lie that you fabricated. Your demonstration puts you are par with the lies of those whom you accuse of falsely leading us to war. You are guilty of this as well. A lie is a lie.

Ernest,
Respond to your critique? That was no critique; it was your attempt at hate bashing. And on the subject of your other lie, there are other ways to prove it and you don’t need the internet to do so. You’re trying to dodge it and I don’t buy it. It seems that this would be your perfect opportunity to prove me wrong and produce some proof. But you can’t because it is a fabrication. That my friend is a psychological disorder. Why would you create such a lie? To gather sympathy from people? Why would you disenfranchise the real victims? What sick motivations do you have that would cause you to do this?

Cyrena,
I smell some more B.S. You have interviewed how many exactly that have been tortured. Please do expound on this. I would love to see the proof of this. Are you a reporter, author or just a liar? Please see point above about your other lie – I never said it worked.

Conservative Yankee,
Email is not sent by ip address. It is sent using the smtp protocol. Yes, people can hide behind proxy servers but that is easily verified.

Leefeller,
You’re a good lad. I admire that you are so engaged in political issues at such a young age. Don’t buy into everything you read and do always question and check the facts. I also highly recommend that you seek both sides of an issue and don’t get wrapped up in the slanted ideologies so prevalent in these comments. Ask yourself why these articles dictate positions rather than communicate both sides of an issue so that you can make a decision on your own.

Precisely what one would expect from a mindless true believer in an Orwellian ideology.  Unable to intellectually comprehend let alone respond to the content of my critique, the guy operating without both oars in the water resorts to a baseless accusation that I made up the story about my father from whole cloth.

While I certainly don’t feel the need to prove anything to a disingenuous moron and cannot point to a link because, and this may come to a shock to “rowman,” the internet did not exist in 1948, I do know that my father’s testimony was covered in depth by newspapers in Hong Kong at the time.  I still possess my father’s original, unpublished manuscript about his experience.  (I can’t produce testimony from either of my parents, who met one another in a Japanese internment camp during the war, as both have been deceased for quite some time.  Both would have verified every word in my post—and more.)

In the meantime, rowman, I’d suggest you either strive to gain a smattering of an education or crawl back under the rock from which you recently emerged.

rowman,

Please don’t flatter yourself, the focus is not on you, rather on your blatant inability to reason and with your help the destruction of our Constitution. Without the ability to reason, one oar in the water serves you well and dovetails with your, “it is not for you to decide” stance.

#112220 by rowman
The question that you posed on the ticking bomb scenario has already been thoroughly researched and analyzed by those with far more brain matter than you’ve displayed on this forum.

You claim that you’ve never ‘advocated’ torture, except that you’ve consistently claimed that it ‘works’. Who doesn’t understand the issues here?

The bottom line is that torture does NOT work, and inevitably complicates any of the pretended reasons for using it. And, it wouldn’t even ‘work’ on a real terrorist, IF in fact the purpose was actually to gain intelligence or information. So, if YOU actually understood the issues, you’d know that. You don’t, and it’s obvious.

Here’s how we have a different understanding on the ‘effectiveness’ of torture, (which you have publically stated – on the board- as ‘working”)
Others have already noted this. It “works” if you want to get somebody to say something…anything. Whatever you want to hear. So, you torture me, because you’re sure that I can tell you where a bomb is set to go off. And, I’ll be happy to give you the most detailed explanation of where, when and how, so that you’ll stop the torture. So, I tell you it’s in building X, in the middle of W block, on the 37 floor, in ofc #4228, and it’s gonna blast off in an hour. Now, if I’m a ‘real’ terrorist, and there really IS a bomb situated somewhere, it’s gonna be on the other side of town, (or maybe in a completely different city) and it’s gonna go off in 25 minutes, (not an hour).

If I were a ‘real’ terrorist, and if such a scenario ever existed, you would be running around looking for the bomb that I told you about, (the one going off in an hour) and you’d have no reason to know I was lying. Because, if you knew I was lying, it would mean that you already know where the presumed attack was to occur, and you wouldn’t be wasting time torturing me to find out.

That’s why your ‘ticking bomb scenario’ only works on TV or in the movie theater. And, that’s why your torture wouldn’t work, even if there was a bomb set to go off, and even if I knew the details. Any person, (and here again, this is common sense for anyone who’s studied it even a LITTLE bit) who is inclined to commit such a terrorist act, is already prepared to die themselves. It’s a given. So, your torture isn’t gonna phase that person in the least. If anything, they are already well prepared to take their own lives, if they happen to be ‘caught’. This is basic stuff, which makes me wonder what cave YOU’VE been in, because it’s not just ticking bomb terrorists that utilize this mentality. Look to ANY war of the past century, and you will find the blueprint of this planned technique, used by multiple armies.

Now of course if your REAL intention has nothing to do with gaining bona fide information, and all about just inflicting pain and terror and humiliation, and you sort of get a kick out of it at the same time, then yeah, I could see how you might think that ‘works’. You get a ‘confession’ even if it has nothing to do with anything, and contains not a single piece of useful information. And, it has the added advantage of making you feel like a big bad powerful dude, in ‘control’ of the powerless, so maybe you just get a super charge out of it all, as really sick people are likely to experience. So, then, you could say that it ‘works”. But, it’s not going to stop any such thing as a ticking bomb, except of course in your wet dreams.

So, if you really are the ‘fraidy-cat’ that lives cowering in fear and hiding under your bed worrying about the terrorist that might be lurking around the next corner, with intent to blow you up, it might be worth considering how you should PREVENT such an individual from being so inclined. Routine torture of any and everybody that you deem ‘suspicious’ isn’t likely to accomplish that.

#112194 by Ernest Canning

Ernest,

I just wanted to ditto my appreciation for the experience you shared with us about your father. And, I really do appreciate it. I’ve spent the past 3 years very intently studying this phenomena that we thought we’d never, ever have to deal with again, so that there would be no more victims like your father, or the thousands of others who have been so subjected. We always claimed to be a ‘civilized’ society.

But, in the past few years, it would seem that I’ve interviewed hundreds of those subjected to the torture of the Dick Bush regime,(though it hasn’t been quite that many, just feels like it) and listened to the John Yoo’s and the Alan Dershowitz’s talk about whatever they can create, to somehow make this ‘appear’ to be the opposite of what it is. The template of the 21st Century. So yes, it’s just as well, (better) that your Father doesn’t have to witness it’s re-emergence in all of it’s grotesque formulations.

Meantime, I see that Mukasey has indeed been confirmed, and that a couple of spineless dems have taken up the bureaucratic busy work of coming up with legislation that will ‘outlaw’ waterboarding. How many times, and how many laws do we need to prohibit torture? Are there not 6 or 7 that already cover this? What will Dick Bush and Addington do to make sure this isn’t ‘retroactive’, like all of the other legislation they used to cover their asses for all of the crimes committed? Or, is it just a bit of noise to for them to make for a few days, instead of the filibuster that they should have undertaken, to prevent Mukasey’s confirmation?

Ya know, average citizens these days will now walk by a park, or a slum, or a busy street in any given city, and see the homeless and the hopeless. And, they’ll say to themselves, how could a person ever allow him/herself to fall that low, to get to such animal like behavior as to seemingly not care about defecating in the street, or slumping themselves in doorways, or whatever else it is that desperate people do, when there is no more.

And then, we see that possibly they’ve figured out something that the rest of us are only just realizing…we’ve sunk far lower than they have, if we can in fact perpetrate the ultimate of all evils, and think not much about it, and in some cases, (like with rowman) actually endorse it. And we’ve SEEN what happened at Abu Ghraib, and we KNOW what’s been going on at Guantanamo, so we’re not talking in theory or ‘what if’s’ here. We’ve seen our country reduced to the lowest of the low. The moral depavity is something that I could never have imagined occuring on the institutional level. Yes, on the individual level we know it does exist, and so in the past, we’ve confined those individuals so that they cannot harm others.

Now, they hold the highest offices of the land. And, this isn’t even a nightmare. It’s real.

I appreciate the support Jon but as you see it does nothing but fuel these “left wing nut jobs “and their conspiracy theories.

Ernest, I need not resort to such tactics. But just to prove you wrong, have the admin compare the ip address of the source and post here for the entire world to see what a nut job you really are.  You clearly have an over active imagination so I tend to not really believe your little story either. Touching as you may have wanted it to be, its smelling a little bit fishy and a little to convenient.  Have any proof to back it up? Or the UFO eat it?

You approach my comments with such bias and intolerance you are unable to see it for what it is worth. No where do I advocate torture. “Ticking time bomb scenario” its real. Other situations where info is needed that is not time sensitive. Yeap, that is real too. Do you live in Disney Land?

Now did I day you needed to torture someone to get the information? No. I asked “what are the options”.

Now if you want to pretend there is not a need that is your prerogative. Visit your local law enforcement agency and ask them if they still interrogate suspects and criminals.

Jon is right. Some of you are horribly intolerant of others. Some of you are flat our racist full of the hate. You are so focused on others; you fail to see the log in your own eye….

A final point in response to the poster who hides behind the anonimity of “John Doe.”

It is not a matter of emotionalism, though the topic of torture should invoke emotions.  Rowman’s thoughtless regurgitation of the party line on the ticking bomb scenario does not rise beyond the type of mindless repetition which typifies what one would expect from a blinded follower of a totalitarian ideology—the same type of mindlessness depicted in Orwell’s “1984” when people would stand en masse shouting, “Long live Big Brother!”  And make no mistake, the hard-right movement which came to power as the result of massive electoral fraud and a judicial coup in 2000 is a totalitarian movement.

Sadly, I doubt that rowman is capable of comprehending the substantive content of my last post.  His posts reflect a profound ignorance.  Ignorance is never “thought provoking.”

Rowman,

At my elementary school today, we learned all about connotations,

I think, there may be a connotation between your one oar in the water and your name.

John Doe

Are you the same John doe who is always checking into my grandpas Kwike motel with different ladies, you seem to be there a lot.

I wonder whether our pal “rowman” didn’t go on line with a separate e-mail account, then post as the anonymous “John Doe,” the unregistered poster who tells us that “rowman’s” comments are “very thought provoking, valid and worth consideration.”  Doe suggests “rowman” is not “advocating torture but sharing a realistic view of the issue.”

Doe’s assertions are belied by the content of the rowman’s posts.  The topic of this article involved a nominee for Attorney General who claimed that he didn’t know whether “water boarding” amounted to torture.  In his initial post, rowman said, “It’s no big deal to me” and “What’s the alternative, ‘Please, Mr. Terrorist, Please tell me where you put the bomb.’”

Now I will grant that rowman’s use of the pronoun “it’s,” standing alone, would be ambiguous, but placed between an article on “water boarding” and a question about what alternatives do we have, there can be no doubt—rowman, parroting the Cheney/Addington talking point about “ticking time bombs” has “advocated” this barbaric technique as a means for acquiring actionable intelligence.

While any honest lawyer who is not a part of or committed to joining this fascist regime would readily identify “water boarding” as torture within the legal definitions of torture contained within the U.N. Conventions Against Torture and the U.S. War Crimes Act, let me add to my prior post as to what the Kempetai did to my father after he refused to sign a false confession that he was a British agent.

Several soldiers pinned him to a wooden platform.  One held a sponge over his mouth and nose as another soldier poured water onto the sponge.

I keep seeing these news accounts about “water boarding” being “simulated” drowning.  There is nothing simulated about this process of forced drowning.  My father could hold his breath only so long.  When he did breathe, water poured into his mouth, up his nostrils, down his throat, and into his lungs.  Between multiple lapses of consciousness over a span of hours there was exquisite pain that accompanied utter helplessness, exhaustion and terror.

My father signed the confession even though he knew it wasn’t true and even though he believed he was signing his own death warrant.  But he was so weak that his wobbly signature was unrecognizable.  So the next day, the guards returned to his cell where he was given a choice between signing a newly typed confession or another round of “water boarding.”  He signed.

“Rowman’s” regurgitation of the ticking bomb scenario reflects a profound ignorance both of the efficacy of torture as a means for acquiring actionable intelligence and of the character of the individuals pulled into the extraordinary rendition dragnet. 

Torture doesn’t work.  People will tell you anything they think you want to hear just to make it stop, even going so far, as my father did, signing what he thought was his own death warrant.  Second, Rowman erroneously assumes that we only torture terrorists.  But, as in the case of Maher Arar, many who are tortured are guilty only of traveling while of Arabic decent.  A Seton Hall study of Guantanamo revealed a detainee population 55% of whom never commited a hostile act and only 8% of whom are connected to al-Qaeda.  The vast majority, 86%, were captured either by Pakistan or the Northern Alliance at a time when the US was offering huge bounties for “suspected” terrorists.

Addington and Alberto Gonzales were aware of this because they were told by JAG officers that most of the Guantanamo detainees didn’t belong there.  An administration lawyer quoted by Jane Mayer in the New Yorker explained, “Torture isn’t important to Addington as a scientific matter, good or bad, or whether it works or not.  It’s about his philosophy of Presidential power….if the Present wants torture he should get torture.”

rowman,

After school, I plan to stick some rocks in your hubcaps, to match the ones in your head, and if I get lucky rub a skunk on the one oar you have in the water.

I suppose that the recalcitrant Dems up on the hill, so squeemish on the possibility of being tarred by the far right as being soft on terror, join hands across the isle and support the initiative to declare a holiday in honour of Baron Von Landsburg, the inventor of the Rack.
I would propose this day be so named as Inquisition Day.. Local news outlets could do puff pieces on Torquemada while schoolage kids could sponsor Britney Spears music marathons…
Something along those lines.

Leefeller, everything you just wrote is a fabrication of the facts before you. Nowhere did I say that waterboarding was not torture and I clearly stated that some decisions are not mine to make. I have my own opinion as you do. I hope you learn a lesson in your adolescence that it is not ok to manipulate the facts to fit your position. It makes you look foolish.

There is clearly a need for persuasive techniques to be used. That is not an assumption but a fact. Attempting to claim that these techniques are not effective, as you have, well… that is an assumption. Do you see the difference?

I claim no wisdom; in fact, it was I who proposed the question. You see, the topic is complex and challenging. Where do we draw the line between what is torture and what is not. What is in, what is out. To whom and when. Under what circumstances. There are techniques that rely heavily on psychological pressures and / or drugs. Are they torture?

Impeachment is not on the table but even if it were, I’m not sure what it has to do with this because it makes no difference who is in office, the challenge is still the same.

Perhaps you should research the issue a bit more. Does your elementary school have trips to Washington DC?

CY, as a post script to my most recent post, and as a change of pace, I thought I’d provide a rare piece of good news—this just in from the Public Citizen press room. 

“Despite intense pressure and lobbying from some Democratic leaders, a massive corporate coalition and the White House, a majority of Democrats in the House…today opposed Bush’s Peru NAFTA expansion agreement, echoing the American public’s widespread discontent with the status quo trade policy.”

Thank you CY both for your kind words and for relaying the interesting story about your father.  I suspect your father would have been nearly as disappointed in the resurgence of McCarthyism as mine would have been in the failure of otherwise respectable members of the U.S. Senate to appreciate the irreparable harm to the rule of law that accompanies their voting to confirm as the next Attorney General of these United States a man who has turned a blind eye to torture and executive lawlessness.  Anyone who can’t or won’t see the moral depravity (and illegality) of “water boarding” is unfit to hold high office.

As to our resident ditto head, Rowman, I long ago determined that his mindless, neocon mumblings barely approach rote memorization of the regime’s message of the day propaganda—unworthy of serious rejoinder.  Our little Rowman doesn’t have both oars in the water.

rowman,

Yes the citizens of this nation should not get to decide on anything according to your lack of logic.
When you defer truth to lies, you have lost liberity.

rowman, I believe you are part of the problem, at least your inability to make a decision on your own is.

You believe in torture, I do not. For some simplistic reasion you do not believe waterboarding is torture, I do. You believe torture gets hidden information, I believe it gets confessions of any sort to quit the torture, but not information. 

Sort of like making up weapons of mass deception, which you must may also support, lies so we could attack Iraq. 

Since impeachment may be on the table, your torture promoting days may be numbered. 

Since you like to make assumptions, I have one for you, your wisdom is self promoted, just like the self proclaimed super patriot chicken hawks who love torture and promote war with hypocritical passion.

I defer to you addled mental condition, for I would not want to be accused of elder abuse.

Im sorry Leefeller, I thought you were an adult! I did not realize you were a child until you posted you latest school yard insult. It may be hard for you to understand my position. You are young and naive and the world is simple for you. Relax and enjoy it. You will have plenty of time to deal with big boy issues when you grow up.

Conservative Yankee,
Technically, it is not within your purview to render such a decision. You have surrendered this (for lack of a better term) to your elective representative. How you respond to their decisions is another matter.

rowman,

You state that it is not for you decide on what constitutes torture, but you seem to have made a clear decision and decided a need to extract information from people that do not want to release it. You also state Frankly, I don’t care what technique is used so long as it is lawful. 

Your blindness supersedes your ignorance, do you make decisions on your own or do you have to be told what to decide?

Oh Leefeller…. I am taken back by your intentional distortion. Thought you were supposed to be more intelligent and capable than that.

No it is not for me to decide what constitutes torture. Nor is it within your purview either. You may have your opinion, just as I, but neither of us plays a decision role in this. That is left to the lawmakers. Those that are responsible for making this decision do so with information and data that you and I have no access to and therefore, we are unable to make an informed decision based on facts and results.

Unlike yourself, I have an appreciation for the challenge they face and I am able to look at both sides of the issue with a realistic view. I can’t help the fact that you live in some fantasy world and are incapable of comprehending a need to extract information from people that do not want to release it. If you were correct in your position, it would not even be an issue for debate or discussion.

Frankly, I don’t care what technique is used so long as it is lawful. Hence, the question I proposed. What are the options? I see plenty of criticism here yet no alternatives to propose and if your option is reduced to asking please, I do not think that is very persuasive or effective.

If ‘please’ is all you do have to propose, then I think this issue is best left with those who truly understand the challenges and issues we as a country face.

On the cause and difference.

When someone goes off the deep end and looses it. [Hungry, tired, overworked, underpaid, a thousand pressures beyond their control] A whack across the face or the bottom may be uncalled for, may even help the whacker feel better for a minute. But then the normal person regrets their impulsive action and try’s to keep from losing control again. We don’t like to admit it, but most of us have been pushed to the edge. That doesn’t make us sadists, that makes us normal. When we learn from our bad behavior and rise above it, that’s called growing. That’s what the normal person try’s to do.

On the other hand ...

When someone plans, fantasizes, or designs a method of inflicting pain, then finds someone to try it out on. [A child, a spouse, a prisoner] Not for the purpose of having a learning, growing experience, but for the purpose of inflicting pain and determining how much pain can be inflicted before the victim passes out or dies, so they can “refine” their methods. That is abnormal.

Every human being who has or does plan in deliberate premeditation a means of causing physical pain to someone else. Then carries out that action, keeps records of the outcome and develops new methods based on the outcome, is a Sadist.
It is just that simple.

We have laws to prevent Sadists from carrying out their serial perversion, which is why Sadists will try to find a way to make their criminal behavior acceptable. Bush and Cheney, and their determination to have eternal war invite the Sadists into the parlor. Normal people are revolted by Sadism and not only would not invite them into the parlor, but would finger them to the cops.

Ergo: We do not have normal people in the White House.

We have Sadists.

The cause? Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of man? [The shadow knows] Sorry about that.

But that really is the answer. These people are so devoid of a sense of conscience there is no limit to the evil they can fantasize and carry out.

They don’t need a reason, just an excuse ...

And an opportunity. The Bush/Cheney administration requested their Justice Department find and define methods of torture acceptable to law, and finding none instructed them to re-write the law. That tells us all, the torture was the goal!

These are not normal people!
These are SADISTS ...
And, we had ample warning.

And those mindless sheep in congress who supported and continue to support this administration now OWN the Sadism. Leading us to recognize, they are either incredibly stupid, or people who also have no conscience, therefore no ethics, therefore no respect for law, the Constitution, or the people they pretend to serve.

And the same can be said for any candidate who supports a continuation of this policy.
And, we all know who they are!

Rowman stated,

“First, I am pretty sure Mukasey said he had not been briefed on waterboarding and was not in a position to provide his opinion on it. I never heard him say that it was legal nor was it ok. This is why it is no big deal to me.”

“Secondly, contrary to the sources cited above, there are also those who disagree with their assessment and do believe it is an affective technique. This article just fails to provide both sides of the issue and is nothing more than partisan propaganda.”

“It is not for me to decide if it is torture or not but what I do know is that we do encounter situations where we need to extract time sensitive information from people”

FYI.
“Daniel Levin, a former top official in Bush’s Justice Department, isn’t exactly a household name, but his story is worth considering. As the acting head of the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel in 2004, Levin recognized interrogation techniques approved by the Bush administration were pushing the legal envelope, and became so concerned about waterboarding that he experienced it personally so he could report on its application.

Not surprisingly, Levin concluded that waterboarding is torture, and sought to advise his superiors. He was rewarded for his efforts with a pink slip.”

Your ignorance oh,  so very convenient,  no do not decide for your self,  if waterboarding is torture, but you go on to say you need to extract time sensitive information , your hypocrisy must be on overtime.  Did you mean to say extract time sensitive confessions?  Not for you to decide, of course.

I listened to Schumer and Feinstein and Specter, give their rationales for voting for Mukasey and I noted the subtle but tell-tell signs of knowledge of deceit. Like looking into nothingness. Slight stuttering. Heavy sniffing. Strange tilt to the head.

Then I watched Camera pans over members of the committee. Most dems speaking to each other, animated, obviously distressed. Most repubs. Glassy eyed. Fixed stare and expression. Pressed together in safety. Shutting off the mind.

Have you ever had the dubious pleasure of watching over sheep?

Sheep need the flock. No matter what the circumstance, or whether or not there’s any grass left in the ground, if the flock is there, they are there. Unless a leader leads them away, they will stand there and starve to death.

If a sheep falls and rolls over on his/her back, they will simply lay there, four legs pointing to heaven. No effort made to roll back. No effort made to get up. No effort extended by any fellow member of the flock. That sheep will simply lay there and die.

Ever wonder why those Medieval paintings of Jesus tending the flocks show him carrying a sheep? Folks think it’s exemplary of caring for the needy. Un-uh. It’s because if you want the flock to follow, you have to bodily carry out the leader. I think there was a very good reason why Jesus used the analogy of being a good Shepard when he instructed his followers. Unfortunately, like everything else in the bible, most people don’t get it.

So, I bet you think you know where I’m going with this, right? Bet your wrong.

You think I’m going to compare the people in America to the stupid sheep right?

Actually I’m not thinking of the masses.
I’m thinking of the privileged flock.
The politicians in Washington DC.

Like dumb animals they huddle together in the corner of their pen. They bleat and they b-a-a-a, but still they huddle in the corner of their pen. So long without a leader, they’ll jump and fall all over each other trying to be first in line if a leader is pulled from their midst and taken to another corner of the pen. Key to the success of the choice of leader, he/she has to look like them, bleat like them, and run to the other corner like them.

Of course there are a few black sheep. The ones who disdain the flock. The ones who think and act. They aren’t really sheep. Because sheep cant think. And they cant act. They absolutely can not be trained! They can only huddle and bleat and b-a-a-a and follow the leader from one corner to the other.

So, having recognized where the real sheeple in our society are located. And recognizing their Shepard, the guy who pulls the leader out of the flock, means to use them only so long as they have value. Once they have been completely fleeced, it’s off to the slaughter pen. And yes, they will follow the selected leader there too. Because sheep are even dumber than people.

Now about the rest of us. When will we learn just because someone wants to be elected to something doesn’t mean they are smart! Or independent, Or unafraid to move across the pen, even at the risk of not being cuddled in the flock? In other words, when are we going to start electing more people and less bleating sheep?

Now think about that next time you have occasion to hear them expound.

Particularly the repubs and the neo-dems. Bleat, bleat ...
BAH!

Cyrena,
Spit your venom. Bottom line is you have no answers so all you can do is resort to attacks to try and mask such a fact. You fool no one and drawing an analogy to a cartoon causes me to think that you do not comprehend the issues. Calling the question stupid, well… confirms that you do not understand the issue.

First, I am pretty sure Mukasey said he had not been briefed on waterboarding and was not in a position to provide his opinion on it. I never heard him say that it was legal nor was it ok. This is why it is no big deal to me.

Secondly, contrary to the sources cited above, there are also those who disagree with their assessment and do believe it is an affective technique. This article just fails to provide both sides of the issue and is nothing more than partisan propaganda.

It is not for me to decide if it is torture or not but what I do know is that we do encounter situations where we need to extract time sensitive information from people and it is not to far of a stretch to assume such information is critical to life or limb. If waterboarding is off the table in these situations what are the options? Drugs? Game Theory application? Psychological pressures that could be applied? What? And is your option more humane and capable of returning accurate results.

If you were in charge, how would you direct the CIA to extract information from an individual that did not want to release it?

It is not realistic, in my opinion, to disregard such a scenario. If you disagree then you must expand the cognitive capabilities of your mind and ask the question “why is it even an issue”.  If you are still unsure… Well… your not really in a position to comment on something you do not understand, are you?

Ernest Canning

Reading about the Japanese and how they treated their prisoners with such brutality and indifference almost enjoyment.  Your dad was a special person to survive such atrocities, I too am glad he survived even though I did not know him.

Yes, we who do not buy the lies, are accused as traitors for simply refusing to buy wholesale deception, sponsered by self defined super patriots who would rather destroy this country and under cut liberty than allow the slightest bit of truth. 

I will never forget the Vice President Wallace quote, thanks.

re: rowman

It would be nice if we could take murders, rapists and terrorists out and torture the hell out of them until they die.

The problem is, innocent people have been mistaken for murders, rapists and terrorists.  That is the point.  How do YOU know or anybody else know who a real terrorist is?  The United States went to war over words from a tortured person who gave false information.

Suppose YOU are collared by someone in our government who starts to squeeze your testicles or slap you around.  Think about that!  What would YOU do under those circumstances?  What would YOU say to make them let go?

Even our worst criminals get their day in court to hopefully find the truth.  Barry Scheck and the innocence program has proven terrible travesties of justice with their DNA analysis.  Innocent people have been exonerated after serving many years on death row because of screw ups by those in the know.

The double talk of Feinstein and Schumer is sickening.  “Mukasey has EARNED my vote!”  Emphasis added. Quote from Feinstein.

To these ass holes, just don’t define torture or keep the definition classified and you can say torture is only when a person survives death by a miracle. THEN you can say “We don’t torture.”  AND if the person dies…..it isn’t torture it’s murder and don’t say a thing. 

It’s all double speak.  Remember when Bill Clinton said ...it depends upon what it means!?  And that was about a blow job in the room just off of the oval room.  And he was IMPEACHED for lying about sex with a young consenting adult.  Wow!  What a crime!!!!!! 

And these, these morons, lowlifes, lying creeps have the gall to ignore torture and lying about war.

How utterly disgusting!!!

#112128 by rowman

•  If this situation were real, what would you do? It is a real scenario to consider and if were to rule it out, I want to know the alternative you propose.
Rowman,
Why do you allow your ignorance to be on view to the world? It doesn’t serve you well, and of course it doesn’t serve any other interests either. (unless you’re on the torture rendition team, and you just ‘enjoy’ it, like Cheney).

In reality, what you’re talking about is a ‘ticking bomb scenario’ and…they don’t exist. The whole thing has been thoroughly discredited, because IF such a scheme could or would ever be concocted, torture wouldn’t help you get the information. And, there are a few hundred recent reports/studies/conferences/you name it, that have come to these conclusions.

Of course no one can provide an alternative, because what you propose is stupid. If there was an alternative, could we have used it for the perpetrators of 9/11? Could we have tortured them well in advance, to find out where they had planted those explosives in the WTC, so as to deactivate them?

This is not a real scenario. This isn’t an old Popeye cartoon where he has to run and save Olive Oyl from the train tracks as the train rushes to within an inch of her. This isn’t the Fox ‘24’ series either. In real life, you use real intelligence to avoid this sort of thing. In real life, our ‘leaders’ would have heeded all of the warnings to 9/11. In real life, it is TORTURE that has created the enemies that would develop extremist ideologies and do us harm. (refer to Sayyid Qutb, The Power of Nightmares, The Looming Towers).
There is a reason rowman the moron, why many intelligent people and lawmakers throughout the globe, have created laws that prohibit the use of torture. It’s because it doesn’t work, and because it can and does create a backlash far worse than anything your pea brain could possibly imagine.

I would list these laws for you rowman, but it’s clear to all of us by now, that you wouldn’t bother to check or review them, more than likely because of your dysfunctional intellectual capacity.

Now just go waterboard yourself, we don’t care what you ‘know’ we just want you to end your own misery.

In 1942 my father was arrested by the Japanese Kempetai (secret police) in Shanghai and taken to Bridge House, an infamous torture chamber where he was kept in a tiny cell for several months—too small within which to either lie down or stand.  Then he was interrogated; asked to sign a confession that he was a British agent.  He refused for two reasons: 1) It wasn’t true & 2) He believed that such a “confession” would be tantamount to signing his own death warrant.  That is when his torture started.  The method?  You guessed it if you said “water boarding.”  After several hours of this exquisitely painful process and multiple lapses of consciousness he signed.  (Tells you something about both the brutality of this method of torture and how worthless it is in terms of securing any useful information—given that an individual will go so far as to sign what they believed to be their own death warrant to make it stop).

Fortunately, after extracting their confession, they didn’t kill him.  Otherwise I would not be here to tell this story.  He was later transferred to another camp where they were keeping “enemy national” civilians; met my mother.  After the war, in 1948, his testimony at the War Crimes trials in Hong Kong helped to convict a Japanese general.

The point of this is that back in 1948 there had been no doubt whatsoever that this horrific technique was torture and a war crime.  How can a retired judge, seeking to hold the chief law enforcement office in these United States—attorney general—be at a loss for words when asked whether “water boarding” is torture and illegal?

The sophistries offered by Senator Schumer in the New York Times in order to justify his vote to confirm Judge Mukasey gave me pause.  Elsewhere on Truthdig, during the debate with Robert Scheer, Ralph Nader bemoaned the Hobson’s choice Americans have been given over several general elections of selecting the lesser of two evils—precisely the reasoning behind the Schumer/Feinstein betrayals—if we don’t select Mukasey then Bush either leaves in place someone who has not come before the committee or brings before the committee someone who is even worse.  And we call that “leadership”?

What we see in the Schumer/Feinstein betrayal is but the latest episode in the placement of political expediency above morality and the rule of law.  It was political expediency that led Democrats to authorize the war in Iraq as they rushed out of Congress for the 2002 mid-terms, only to be swift-boated and lose their majority in the Senate.  It was political expediency, the desire to erase any daylight between the two parties over national security issues in the 2006 mid-terms, that led to passage of the Military Commissions Act which granted an immunity for all crimes committed in service of the so-called “war on terror” retroactive to 9/11/01.  It is that same political expediency which led Nancy Pelosi to declare impeachment off the table even before the start of the present Congress.  With the current crop of Democrats, it is all about getting the corporate dollars needed to win the next election; never about fulfilling their solemn oath to support and defend the Constitution—to see that the rule of law applies to all.

What a sad state of affairs.  I am grateful my father did not live to see them.

Jim Rohrig,

Negativity is cognizant of being lied to by our fearless leaders, the freelance opportunists and special interest in DC.  The waterboarding comment is very important, you may want to check out the MSNBC post by Obermann, it quite clearly paints the negative picture, you so seem to want to ignore.

Be advised, Senator Feinstein, I am a resident of California and I am an active Democrat and I will not vote for you ever again.

RdV

The shame is on your bigoted self, in fact, in your case,  I may make an exception on when to use waterboarding, must admit one way to get back on topic.

P.T. Freelance opportunists, is a polite way to describe all politicians. 

If Hillary and Obama showed what they were made of we, could be in for a big disappointment.

Throw the Bums Out!

Schumer and Feinstein voted with their ‘tribe’.
Man, the Democrats are so unbelievably spineless and enablers for the Neocon agenda. They make it so easy for Bush and Cheney to shred American democratic (small d) institutions. Where is the hope?

Ever notice that the “Jews are not the Israelis” shuts down the argument?
  Who are they? certainly not the Methodists…Israel is a racist state—for Jews only. The Israelis are Jews and-most American Jews—even progressive Jews support Israel unquestioning because they have been so well indoctrinated that they must protect the Jewish homeland as the only place that Jews can be safe- fearing another holocaust. Ahhh, the justification for imposing the holocaust on another—as long as it isn’t us on the wrong side of the ghetto wall. All the pandering of politicians is to Zionist Israel, all Jewish politicians sign off on unqualified support of Israel—If American Jews in any way, held conflicting views, they are silent. Their silence is either complicity or tacit approval. I do not see the star of David at peace demonstrations.

  For shame.

Rowan

Of course it is not a big deal to you, having your head were the sun doesn’t shine has a lot to do with it.  The question is, is waterbording torture, not whether you think it is a big deal.

Aside from the fact you most likely discount, torture even though it can induce innocent people to admit to anything whether they did it or not, of course innocent people would never be tortured, everyone is guilty in your simple mind.

It’s not a big deal to me. We want terrorist to consider the options before they commit a heinous act so I say keep the uncertainty.

What is the alternative? “Please Mr. Terriorist, Please tell me where you put the bomb. We will not hurt you. We just want to know so you don’t blow up 1k people. Please, pretty please”.

If this situation were real, what would you do? It is a real scenario to consider and if were to rule it out, I want to know the alternative you propose.

And don’t say prison. In this country we know that is not a deterrent. Full medical benefits, three daily balanced meals, gym membership, cable tv – all free. And we wonder why prisons are overcrowded…..

What is your option? Do tell.

It’s got to be in the water!  These guys can’t seriously think Americans are OK with this thinking.  Can Schumer and Feinstein think they sold this line of crap to the public.  Once we clear out the right wing nuts, it’s time to target these morons.  I do believe there is going to be a “recall” for any elected politician who has not supported the Constitution and the American Voter.  It seems the only thing we can do is hope this guy feels an obligation to follow the rule of law, because we don’t seem to have any other way to get this done.  Any Democrat who thinks he/she is safe may just be out of a job next election, right along with the thugs…..

In a healthy citizenry of a truly “democratic” country, we should be seeing an outrage, a seething undercurrent of revulsion, a call to action if not revolution. 

But where is it?  It’s not there….no evidence of disagreement, or disgust, or revulsion, or indignation…just shrinking cowardice, fear, and subservience…we deserve whatever we get from this despicable behavior…we don’t deserve “freedom” because we don’t even know what it is; we have forgotten the meaning of the word, if we ever truly knew it.  Tao Walker says we never knew what true freedom was….he is correct!  We’re all captives of our ignorance, our collective dumbing down, and finally our fear.  I am scolding every one including myself for allowing this collective shit to bury us!  Free wild humans….what the hell are they?

Schumer and Feinstein are prime examples of what is wrong with the Democratic Party. We often lament that the Republican Party has been gutted by Christofacists and Neo-Con Thugs. We should also point out, on every available opportunity that the Democratic Party has also been gutted. We have cowards and Blue Dog Democrats and the folks like Schumer and Feinstein that go along to get along. Time to put the fear of re-election into the Democrats that think they can get a large majority and keep the one they have because we loathe the Republicans so very much. They don’t seem to understand that we loathe them too. This whole disgusting debacle with Mukasey is just one more sad example of what is wrong with the Democratic Party. That they can say he is a man of integrity and a good man is outrageous. He’s neither. But then how would they know?

Only really, really stupid idiots don’t know that waterboarding is torture. Only really, really, stupid idiots would want a really, really, stupid idiot to be attorney general.

Take a deep breath, stand back and take a good look.  This is Amerika today. 
Yes, we support and engage in torture.  We allow warrentless wire and e-mail taps.  We allow domestic spying of our lives.  We have allowed the constitution to be desecrated in the name of…….what….safety?  Ha!!!!  I say!!!!  We have all allowed this.
We have allowed our messianic in chief to lead us to this point…WE…it must be we, or we’re cooked.  Really cooked….can you see it; can you really see it.  This fear you should be feeling; it should be so far and above anything this administration of fascists, traitors, and torturers has created, so as to be off the charts…and the action should be to send them to the prisons they should be in.  Cellmates of the likes of, Manson, Eichmann, Goering, etc., etc., etc.! 
At least look at the video of Keith Olbermann on “Countdown”.  This guy called Bush a liar on national TV, he is a brave guy and correct.

Our elected representatives are a bunch of the most bought, spineless, corrupt, self serving, greedy, lying, fascist, hypocritical son’s of bitches in the short and not wonderful history of Amerika. 

Thank god for Amy Goodman…but she cannot do anything without “US”.

“....Republican Sen. Arlen Specter, who voted for Mukasey’s confirmation, said Congress should pass a law forbidding waterboarding, having received assurances from Mukasey that he would uphold such a law…”

Congress should PASS A LAW FORBIDDING WATERBOARDING??

Because…“Mukasey has assured him that he would uphold such a law”.

Is he out of his mind? Amy and Ted Kennedy have just mentioned 5 or 6 such laws. What doesn’t Specter get? If Mukasey won’t even admit that waterboarding IS torture, how the hell is anybody supposed to believe that he would ‘uphold’ such a law? He won’t ‘uphold’ the 5 or 6 laws that are already in place, including the Constitution.

I guess Feinstein and Schumer were ready to retire anyway, eh?

Meantime, this is a good opportunity for Obama and Clinton to show what they’re made of. I would suggest they both get their filibuster shoes on.

Sometimes when I think of how this country has changed under George Bush I’m shocked.

What was unthinkable 7 years ago, has now become a fact of daily life.

That Democrats cower and spinelessly do George Bush’s bidding, when he has less support than President Nixon did, fortells the end of the Democratic party. It exists in Name only. Because it no longer stands for anything.

The Democratic party is a disgrace to this country, while George w. Bush is America’s shame.

PBS show on “Extraordinary Rendition”:

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/rendition701 /?campaign=pbshomefeatures_1_frontlineworldbrextraordinaryr endition_2007-11-06

9/11 was an inside job - bush’s first act of terror

Google videos: 9/11 Press for Truth, Loose Change 2nd Edition, 9/11 Mysteries, Terror Storm, America: Freedom to Fascism

The Democratic Party isn’t so much a political party as it is a collection of cynical, freelance opportunists.  That is why Congress’s approval rating is even lower than Bush’s.

A vote for Muskasey means a vote for CRIMES ! Those who voted for him aren’t human beings !