Yes, NABNYC—

The illegal workers aren’t a part of the immigration problem.  They aren’t true immigrants but migrant workers lured here after losing their livlihoods due to Nafta.

Immigration is one thing—the illegal workers are recruits, workers for Bush’s NAU society, and the best way to certify them is through the immigration system. 

It’s sneaky and it’s scary.  It’s underhanded, just like the underhanded invasion of Iraq and possibly Iran.

I think that most of us would do as the illegals do—if in their position. 12 million relatively unskilled, poor, just surviving on the margins until: CRASH—the rapid development of agribusiness in southern Mexico—because of NAFTA. Twelve million people is a huge displacement of people. The well being of the displaced was not a consideration of the planners of that disaster—or it wouldn’t have happened.

I favor economic development at a reasonable pace if that is what the locals want. But pace of development is seldom fast under freedom. The activities of the elites of the U.S., Mexico, and Canada amount to predatory capitalism. It is tearing apart the lives of the subsistence farmers. For displaced farmers in Mexico there is only unemployment. That could be me. They are like us.

If I were one of the displaced and had no way to support my family, I too would swim the river, climb the wall, or whatever, to earn enough Yankee dollars to send back to the family for necessities. I would do whatever was necessary.

Some of you might think that you would stay behind in Mexico rather than be illegal. That is an honorable value—to follow your principles. I would solute you if you did. But then again, talk is cheap.

One more point.  What Bush has proposed and Hillary supports is privatization of immigration into the U.S.  In other words, the business world will make all the decisions about who comes in and under what conditions. What does Hillary mean when she says we need comprehensive immigration reform?  She means amnesty and privatization, the same thing that Bush is promoting.

The so-called security at the borders will be turned over to Blackwater, which they will conduct from their shiny new facility they are building in San Diego, and which they will do for a fee 10 times what taxpayers pay now.  The detention of those caught will be handled in new facilities being build by Halliburton.  Bush just changed to law to say that anyone apprehended will be imprisoned instead of returned to Mexico.  Presumably in a Halliburton facility maintained by the very Republican members of the prison guard union.

But the ultimate decision about who comes in will be turned over completely to the businesses.  There will be no consideration about what is best for the country.  The only question is what do the businesses want.

Chertoff is going to issue a new “interpretation” of the H2A agricultural worker visas.  I anticipate certain U.S. contractors will be authorized to hire and haul to the fields unlimited slave labor from Mexico.  When the crops are in, they will be dumped at the edge of town and become someone else’s problem. 

They also are planning to greatly expand the H-1B visa which allows businesses to import all their technical help.  Again, U.S. contractors bring over nurses by the boatload who are licensed to work for 1/3 what an American would be paid.  The same is true for engineers. 

At the same time, our schools are allowed to deteriorate because there is no need to educate our population when business can just haul in educated people by the boatload at a fraction of the cost.  In fact, the H-1B visa “restrictions” of about 65,000 have already been expanded to exclude any worker who gets a Masters’ degree while here. American engineers are out of work or their wages have been radically slashed, while businesses hire only engineers from India and Pakistan.

The neocons and many Democrats are using immigration to crush the American working people.  We need to stop all immigration until we can get a legitimate evaluation of what effect it is having on the American working people, and after that we should only allow immigration which does not result in throwing Americans out of work.

Nabnyc is absolutely right.  Granting an illegal resident a driver’s license will not make our roads safer or accidents better managed.  Is the assumption that once licensed the illegal resident will get car insurance?  And how about the illegals who don’t speak English (are they tested in Spanish?) The trucking industry has been pushing to get more hispanics driving so that they can lower their cost of labor.  Of course, once the pay is lowered this will become another job that Americans don’t want to do. 

Mexico has some of the toughest immigration laws around, so I find it hypocritical for Fox to criticize our laws.  Foreign expatriates living in Mexico are strictly regulated and the idea of sneaking into that country and setting up housekeeping is absurd.  And most of the south american countries require proof of funds to ensure that you will not be a burden on the country.

My biggest concern with illegal flow is with the huge numbers.  Our cities are too crowded to enjoy life, our schools bursting at the seams and trying to meet the needs of too many students…and failing.  This congestion is pressuring people as well as the environment.  Add a million people to the highways annually and commute times increase by leaps and bounds.  A 20 minute commute stretches into hours. 

It’s not who they are, it’s how many!

The real reason for giving licenses to illegal immigrants has nothing to do with safety.  It instead is designed to allow businesses to turn all their trucking over to illegal immigrants who will work for $50/day.  Without the license, a business would lose its insurance if it hired unlicensed drivers.  This whole thing is a pro-business effort to put more Americans out of work, to destroy yet another union, and to further drive down wages of American truckers.

The safety issue is absurd.  There is no evidence that someone will drive more safely if they have a license.  If the law prohibits 10-year-olds from driving, but we find they are anyway, the solution is not to give them licenses and pretend it’s impossible to enforce the law.  The way to stop illegal immigrants from driving is that if one is pulled over for any reason, deport them immediately.  The same for working without papers:  deport them immediately and fine the employer
$50,000 flat fine for each illegal worker they have hired.

The mantra from the people on top is always “Well, we can’t deport 12 million people.”  Of course we can.  If they can’t work without papers, and that law is enforced, they will leave.  You don’t need mass roundups, you just need to enforce the law.

When Hillary says we need “comprehensive immigration reform,” that’s also a lie.  What we need to do is to enforce the laws we already have.  There are a certain number of slots available for legal immigrants every year.  No one has shown that the number of available slots is inadequate.  What the politicians really mean is that they want amnesty for all the illegal immigrants already here, and they want to give the corporations the absolute right to import all their workers.  Bill Gates hired Ralph Reed to “lobby” Congress to change the laws so Microsoft could import all its workers from India and Pakistan, pay them 1/3 what they would pay an American, then fire them and bring in a new crop every 3-5 years.  Disposable workers. 

The Democrats may well end up losing in 2008.  And this could be the issue.  They need to stop being so stupid, and start looking around and seeing that working people in this country are in trouble, and we don’t need to bring millions more people in to compete for jobs.  If anything, immigration should be halted until the politicians find a way to enforce the law.  And if they are incapable or unwilling to do their job, they should resign and let someone else take their spot.

Yup, could have called this bunch of comments too. Whatever the problem, whatever is wrong in America, it is all Hillary Clinton’s fault. You folks all got Chris Matthews syndrome, doncha? Glad I quit watching the Hillary bashing buffoon some time ago. I had no idea his idiocy was catching.

Illegal Immigration is a complex problem and Spitzer’s plan was just an attempt to bring some kind of order out of chaos. (Utah, that home of weepy liberalism all ready has such a law on it’s books.)

But let’s keep blaming it on Hillary and let Lou Dobbs make policy for the country.

(By the way, I don’t like Hillary much either. I just like mindless rhetoric and hatred even less. I am also very disappointed to see some liberals spouting Republican talking points. I thought we were supposed to be smarter and better than them. Apparently not.)

Jim Tarvid said: (#111853)

“Immigration is a civil not legal matter (read the immigration code).”

This seems to me to be a key to how the immigration issue is can be framed. But I need to understand better what “civil not legal” means.

Jim, please elaborate.

The only good policy on ILLEGAL immigration is one that deports all ILLEGAL immigrants, heavily fines those who hire ILLEGALS, and returns to the original intent of the 14th amendment and does away with anchor babies.

I think it was this guy—E.J. Dionne, on a talk show, claim that Hillary’s strength was her “tough act”, because it indicated that Hillary could stand up to the Right. What an idiotic thing to say for two reasons. First of all, Hillary’s tough guy act turned out to be a joke after the last debate when she went blubbering that the boys were picking on her AND adopting, or should we say triangulating, on the NeoCon macho swagger and warmongering bullying the entire world is disgusted with, is no way to present an alternative choice. Instead it legitimizes it.

Just curious, I wonder why Mexico vilifies the U.S. as being totally unrealistic on immigration when there are MANY victims of illegal immigrants in Mexico that have been raped, robbed, tortured, etc…and yet, Vicente Fox would have us believe that our immigration LAWS are somehow unfair and brutal. Mexico’s dirty little secret is that the U.S. is a safety valve, as long as some of their populace can come to the U.S. and send monies back to the homeland, the status quo can be maintained. This would include corruption, cronyism,  and state-sanctioned violation of U.S. law…

Congrats to the U.S. citizens that have bought into this ruse….hope you are enjoying that cheap chicken and carpet while paying out the nose for supporting social services for illegals!

And if as Grappa says the Republicans speak with forked tongue (and they do), what does that make them in their fundamentalist politico/religion?  Da debil… And DennisD, she did get elected Senator, so are you asleep?  You might have some points but you ain’t making them.  Louise gives me hope there are women thinkers out there. Her snappy responses are witty and dead on.

Like it or not we would all feel the impact without this cheap, one cut above slave, labor.

Like it or not we would all feel the impact without this cheap, one cut above slave, labor.

This is how we justify immoral acts in this country—slavery is good because the rest of us don’t have to pay a higher pric for goods.  Invading Iraq is good because it assures us an oil supply. 

Must we kill and exploit people so that we can enjoy our good lives at their expense?  Is this the only way nations can provide for their citizens?

It’s a weak argument to simply say its racism! I’m quit aware that racism runs rampant, but I think its much more a issue of class! We do need to be aware of who is in this Country because there are those who would do us harm. Weather we want to admit this or not there are a lot of people in the middle east and in Latin America who are a little bit pissed at us. But I think the republicans use this in an hyperbolic exaggerated manner. They don’t really want the borders secured. where would they get labor? It helps keep wages in this country from rising. The republicans have a vested interest to let in cheap labor. the problem is the La-Rossa groups have a bigger agenda having to do with political power.The dems.,[which are only a vehicle to them] In my judgement La-Rosa will do them selves harm if they don’t support border security and employer sanction and they will put a Republican back in the White House. The Supreme Court is what this battle should be about. The dems will ultimately come to this position because right now they have a advantage with the independent voters, but that will change if Clinton maintains her position on illegal immigrants.  La-Rossa must step back for a minute or it will come out on the losing end and could possibly pull the Dems down with them. They must understand its a issue of finesse’ not muchisimo . [perception]

#111193 by voice of truth

“calling an illegal alien an “undocumented worker” is like calling a crack dealer an “undocumented pharmacist”.

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Or a pharmacist a “drug dealer” for big pharma.

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#111179 by ed

“Why doesn’t Dionne come out and just SAY IT!? It’s racism pure and simple. This issue has nothing to do with security and everything to do with the color of the skin of the immigrants.”

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There ya go ... racism impure and simple.

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#111120 by Verne Arnold

“The dems tread so lightly they don’t even leave a footprint.”

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Except in the backs of their constituents!

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#111082 by mackTN

“This group was recruited by the business sector to fill jobs it reclassified as below minimum wage, a neo-slave group using taxpayer resources as subsidies.”

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Trapped between the Ugly American, the elite “slave” holder and an “Oh, oh, me too!” gaggle of politicos. It would serve us right if the entire “South of the Border” work force, both legal and illegal left!

Like it or not we would all feel the impact without this cheap, one cut above slave, labor. Especially the pseudo conservatives! They’re always the first to scream like a stuck goose, when they have to tip or pay a decent wage!

That would depend on what is considered “getting on with their lives.”  If it means the oppressed Mexicans would stay in Mexico and not illegally cross the “open” border, then fine.  The wall represents the citizens of the United States more than it keeps the illegal aliens from sneaking into the country.  They will start coming in on those long haul transcontinental trucks between Mexico and Canada that will be allowed on USA roads running without inspections, of course they will.  And Chalmers, as usual, you truncate your comments and use chop logic to make no points.

#111203 by Shenonymous on 11/02 at 9:07 am: “...I totally blame the Republican regime on the problem of rampant illegal immigration….”

Maybe everyone should just “tear down that wall”! That is the artificial construct called a border - and just let people get on with their lives.

I totally blame the Republican regime on the problem of rampant illegal immigration.  The fact that some Democrats are now proposing either outright amnesty for the 12 to 14 million illegals in the country today, or offering such carrots as driver’s licenses, or other incentives to keep coming illegally, only compounds the problem of who to vote for.  This country is in deep crap trouble.  The illegal and insane war in Iraq has depleted beyond an enormous amount of financial resources that ordinarily would help the workers here as legal Americans by pumping money into the economy so that farmers and corporations could afford to hire them and afford the benefits workers need to have a decent life.  When CEOs get hundreds of millions of dollars even when they are fired, it is a travesty that ordinary folks can hardly afford travel to work, healthcare, or even a decent table of food. 

The problem of illegal immigration is not simple as it is more often than not tied umbilically to the concept of immigration that is legal.  I don’t know anyone who is opposed to legal immigration.  But allowing illegal immigrants to become citizens without the normal procedures everyone else must go through would without a doubt drain the energy out of the rest of the country.  And the undeniable block vote strength that would come with such a move would further upset the natural way the country would go among all ethnic or otherwise social groups.  The Democrats are walking on political eggs f’sure and they had better be careful those are not rotten eggs.  They would do better to focus on immigration reform than keep the course they are now treading.

calling an illegal alien an “undocumented worker” is like calling a crack dealer an “undocumented pharmacist”.

This whole debate has gotten so ridiculous.  If I am decry the illegal invasion, I am “racist”, etc.  My grandparents were immigrants.  This is not about immigrants.  It is about people breaking our laws, ignoring our society, taking taking taking, abusing our health care and education systems, all under the guise of a “right to be here”.  This is ludicrous.

How many here have seen badly needed resources in public schools sucked into Spanish-speaking only classes?  How about the maternity ward at a small hospital, with nurses going crazy as a whole bevy of illegals are steered to a particular hospital for birthing.  Not to mention that 90% of the Neo-Natal ICU is taken up with their babies.  I have seen this first hand.

Heck, the things that this latest bill are granting to illegals is way better than those given to people following the legal path to citizenship, and even more advantageous than we as citizens have access to.

I am sick of hearing, oh the food industry will collapse.  Or the housing industry, or whatever.  Just as most on this site are happy for me to have to spend more for healthcare for all, I would be willing to spend more to have my grass cut, or for a chicken breast.

I refuse to accept Sen Clinton to be the nominee at least until votes have been cast.  And if anyone thinks the Repubs are NOT going to use this issue against any Democratic nominee, simply is not paying attention.  I am a little slanted on the immigration issue, but I still think we need to secure our borders and protect our voting process. In a recent article the Repubs are accusing the Democrats of vote rigging, isn’t the rich!  Illegal Aliens need to return to country of origin and apply for entry into this Country, period.  The Democratic Party needs to consider how complicated this issue will be for them if they insist on being suckered by Latino groups who show nothing but distain for our rule of law.  No one has the right to become an American Citizen.  If applying for Citizenship isn’t the most important event of your life, you don’t need to be here.  The states along the border are starting to get it and some are trying to put a stop to it.  Sen. Clinton needs to take a firm stand against amnesty, and I mean firm and unequivocally, if she hopes to survive thru an election.  Right now my vote is still with John Edwards….....

#111137 by KISS on 11/02 at 4:52 am: “...What a choice: Hillary or Rudi Gulianni? Both shills for corporate Amerika….”

Well, let’s have the one with tits for a change, uhh. The others are all so fr!%#ing UGLY and all in their outdated grandpa suits!!!

What part of ILLEGAL does not these Lawyers understand? The hubris and unctuous demeanor of the Dimmos is so out of step with the populists of our country.
The commentators are so right that the folly of Bush lies at the door-step of Bubba Clinton and I fail to see where Hilary will be any different.
With all that corporate money I’m afraid she will bamboozle the general electorate into voting her to lead the dimmos at nomination time.
What a choice: Hillary or Rudi Gulianni? Both shills for corporate Amerika.

The dems tread so lightly they don’t even leave a footprint.

If it wasn’t for the trade policies her husband rammed through, it wouldn’t be such a political hot potato today. It is just reaping what you sow.
 
  The Clintons are a liability for the Democratic party because they don’t stand for anything with conviction. NY Gov Spitzer didn’t have any problem at all addressing the issue where Clinton floundered. God, I wish we could turn the page on the Clintons…and the Bush family….and the Rahm Emanuels with their Zionist agendas, as well.

The truth is that clinton was trying to say in the middle of the road on the illegal immigration issue and in this case she was “run over ” by both sides.

I’m so far from being a Republican that I’m in a different galaxy.  I’m left of most democrats, and always have been.  I also oppose illegal immigration, not because of I have anything against the illegal immigrants—in fact, I don’t even view this issue as an immigration issue at all.  This group was recruited by the business sector to fill jobs it reclassified as below minimum wage, a neo-slave group using taxpayer resources as subsidies. 

This is just another form of imperialism and the essential step toward establishing the shadow govt of Nafta/Nau/WTO.  These are not your conventional immigrants who come here of their own free will, but peons cast off by their own country, who, instead of helping them replace their livelihoods taken from them by U.S. policies, gladly give them up to our lawns, hotels, restaurants to work jobs no one can barely survive on. 

The congressional elite, most of whom don’t endure the growing traffic that adds time you sit on the highways to get to work, time you spend in the grocery to buy food, and crowding of the schools in which your children try to learn, have no problem asking us to suffer consequences of overcrowded cities. 

Edwards was right—white woman speak with forked tonque.  Is it so hard to state a viewpoint clearly?  After generations of discrimination, this country denied African Americans compensation through affirmative action policies, but goes out of its way to craft waivers for people who are not even citizens.  We are to be so concerned that people who are not citizens have access to health care and educational benefits, but not the American worker?

Please!

Quote: “...In the short run, Clinton’s exquisite calibration of her positions was the issue. But her debate jitters reflect a deeper worry among Democrats that Republicans are ready to use impatience with illegal immigration to win back voters dissatisfied with the status quo….”

Hillary might well have anxieties about a dualistic position as that is what the electorate has too. The trouble is how to be both reasonable and popular while taking one side as politicians must. Best for her to stop being worried about the Republicans as they are guilty anyway.

The real problem is not simply a question of “either-or” but what the Republican federal adminstration is trying to achieve with its de facto agenda of allowing illegal migration. Once you bring that down to mere drivers’ licenses, it becomes a states issue and the federal game-playing is obscured…...

But, in the meantime,  finding “a way of changing the political subject from Iraq” has come at the worst time as the possibility of the US president-idiot embarking on another military venture in Iran becomes a real threat. Can’t the Democrats see WW3 in front of them - or do they really think it will wait???