I think people need to keep in mind that God gave man the free will to choose or not to choose their own moral decisions regardless how you feel about any of thse personal issues. It is not anyones job to stop you from making that decision. God did not fix it so that certain people can be elevated above other humans. We are all equals, I dont recall god leaving anyone in charge of anyones life. I also know that throughout the history of christianity people have always try to shove it down your throat their own version of morality. The idea that we have those who want to be king in the name of christianity is absurd. We need to focus more on those who are here not those who may not get here. The focus should be more on social justice after all he was a revoulutionary social justice palestinian jew. Not a sexual moralist like some would like to make him out to be. I dont think any of these pro-lifers as being sincere. Ask them what would they do if their policy to make abortion illegal would cause the death of woman and they say nothing nor to they care. Please go to Chris hedges here at this website and read his article ” the greates threat to choice” and see what they are really all about. I dont think deceiving people is a christian virtue as you will se they have made it an art.

reply to #110241 by cyrena on 10/29 at 7:40 am

First off I have family in Chicago and therefore I have seen lake Michigan, and its a really big lake , hence it’s place in the ranks of the Great lakes. Lake Michigan has trillion and trillions of gallons of water. So don’t worry about nestle using a few million gallons. What does nestle do with the water. It’s filters and bottles the water so humans don’t go thirsty. So are you pro thirst cyrena?

As for the native not being allowed to fish, who stops them? the christians don’t, but the environmentalist do.

As for slavery go back to school and take a US history class and you will discover that christian lead the call to end slavery.

As for still birth and miscarriages what is the biggest reason for this alcohol and drug use by pregnant women. even this is a small percentage of pregnancies. FYI about 1/3 of pregnancies end in abortions.

As for New Orleans , who was to blame for that ? the democrats and mayor ray “school bus” Nagen.

Mayor Nagen allowed school buses to be used to goto poor parts of the city to carry people to the polls on election day to vote for his sorry butt, but would not allow school buses to be used to take poor people out of the city before the storm.  this show what the democrats true priorities are.

As for removing christian values for politics, so you think you or any one else has the right to decide which issues are on or off the political table , how Fascist of you.

reply to #110198 by Paul_GA on 10/29 at 3:00 am

First off a bit of a history : Hitler’s Holocast resulted in the death of about 12 million people.
Since Roe v wade the abortion industry has killed 45-50 million children in the USA.

As for Hitler being anti abortion , Non aryans could be aborted at will. So Hitler was not pro life but a racist.

As for calling pro choice/death people Nazi’s ,as the old saying goes if the shoe fits wear it .
If any thing the comparison to pro death democrats to the Nazi’s , would be an insult to the Nazi’s
and that is coming from me driving bear a Jew and proud of it.

#110193 by driving bear

Christian conservatives trust God to control the weather aka the environment ,not Al Gore or you.

You don’t get it DB. What does GOD have to do with Nestle Corp pumbing millions of gallons of water from Lake Michigan to sell to the rest of us? Water that the people of the region (specifically the NATIVE population) need to survive? That’s an environmental question, and a moral one. That same population has had it’s fishing “privileges’ altered (consistently by the licensing bureaus) over and over and over again. How moral is that DB. How moral and “Christian” is it for Corporations to consistently poison various parts of the globe (and overwhelming here in the US) with the by products of their manufacturing;, causing cancer and all sorts of horrible diseases among various populations. That’s the ‘environment’, and that’s a moral issue, even in backwoods Tennessee.

And, I think you’ve got some homework to do. So, start checking the statistics on miscarriages, (1st and 2nd trimesters) and still births in 3rd trimesters and at full term) Get those numbers. THEN, compare that with the number of abortions performed in the US. You might be surprised. I don’t know where you get your 1 million babies figures, but you’re going to need to explain to me why it’s moral to wait until their born, and then kill ‘em (war, disease, starvation, etc) as opposed to allowing for abortions that are clearly none of your business.

So, just so we’re clear, Christian conservatives obviously don’t have the slightest problem with babies dying, once they’re out of the womb. It’s only the unborn that they seem to have this overwhelming concern for. If that’s not the epitome of hypocrisy, I don’t know what is.

Anyway, check those stats on miscarriages and stillbirths, primarily due to the lack of prenatal care, (which Christians don’t seem to feel the least bit responsible) or lack of education in preteen or young mothers, (not responsible for that either – right?) and see how that stacks up against abortion numbers.

Wait, I know what your answer’s gonna be. GOD controls that as well, right? So miscarriages and still births are fine, because GOD must be the greatest abortionist? Christian’s have no moral responsibility there, just like it’s always been perfectly ‘moral’ for Christians to hold human beings in chattel bondage. IE – SLAVERY? Yes, that’s all very moral and God like. Surely God must have intended it that way.

And that ‘ultra Christian” organization of Blackwater, they don’t mind killing lots of women and babies in Iraq either. Or, New Orleans. But, they’re so “Christian”. Help us figure out why God thinks that’s perfectly fine. Or, maybe because those are non-White babies? Is that the difference? Ah. I thought so.

And, watch who you make accusations about ‘not caring’ for poor people Mr. Christian. I don’t think God would be all that happy with that either. I KNOW it’s not the mentality of the Jesus Christ that I’ve read about.

This is why Christianity in the form of ignorant mentalities is so dangerous.

Matter of fact, what it always comes down to, at the end of the day for these “Christians” is the almighty dollar, and they don’t much care who or where it comes from, or who suffers as a result, as long as they have it.

Sorry, I know this is going to break your heart, but Religion doesn’t belong in politics. And the Christian Conservative type religion doesn’t belong anywhere.

With all due respect, Driving Bear, Adolf Hitler was anti-abortion as far as German (Aryan) women were concerned. In Nazi Germany, a first offense abortion was punishable by a stiff term of imprisonment; a second, by death.

I’m not too enthusiastic about abortion myself, but I do dislike pro-life people accusing pro-choice people of being “Nazi-like”.

reply to #110192 by cyrena on 10/28 at 11:41 pm

Christian conservatives trust God to control the weather aka the environment ,not Al Gore or you

Christians do care who marries who , Always have and always will and the numbers are on our side
I noticed you did not even try to refute the election data I supplied about gay marriage.
BECAUSE I WAS/ AM RIGHT

As for the abortion issue ,sorry I know it will break your Nazi heart but christian conservatives are not going to stand by while the pro death Nazi democrats KILL almost 1 million American Children per year.

So when compared to the Democrats on this issue ,BUSH is a Saint.

As for funding of so called social programs American now knows you and the democrats don’t give a dam about poor people , Your only goal is to expand the size of the government and to buy votes . FYI only 22 cents of every dollar spent on social welfare gets to poor people , the rest goes to government red tape and paper pushers.

#109663 by driving bear

•  If christian conservatives have lost their power why are both the Republican and democratic candidates trying to court the christian vote. Why are the dems trying to sell the environment their antiwar positions as moral issue. As for the true moral issues gay marriage and abortion the numbers are on the christian conservative side

DB,

Let me try to help answer your question. First, the Christian conservatives have lost their power because their hypocrisy has finally come to light. (took long enough). For a TRUE Christian, the environment is far more of a ‘moral’ issue than gay marriage or abortion, because we ALL share the environment. No true Christian gives a rats ass about who marries who, or who has how many children.

The hypocrites among the political Christian Conservative Movement claim to be ‘pro-life’. They’ve highjacked that ‘phrase’ as they have so many others, but people are finally realizing that they don’t mean ‘pro-life’ at all. One cannot claim to be in favor of ‘life’ (as in the continued development of an embryo) and refuse to help feed/clothe/house/ or otherwise assist in providing for that same embryo, if it grows to full term, and can survive on its own, outside of its mothers womb. If they were so ‘pro-life’, they’d do something about the horrendous infant mortality rate in places like Mississippi and Alabama, were infant mortality rates are higher than many 3rd world countries.

If they were so ‘pro-life’ they would be so gung ho to send our own troops off to kill (including children and babies) and to BE killed themselves. If they were really pro-life, they wouldn’t want to have 16,000 SINGLE MOTHERS serving in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And, they can’t really effectively explain why THEY care, if two people they don’t even know, wanna marry each other. It has less than shit to do with them.

So, despite your ‘numbers’ people are figuring this out, and they know the hypocrisy is very UN-Christian like. So, that’s why they’re losing their power. THANK GOD!!

Jesus would NOT be pleased, and they’ve chosen to name this movement after Him. Hypocrisy ain’t the way…. that’s what real Christians say. (at least the ones I know).

Hope that helps.

Anyone with a lick of sense knows that if Christ were alive today Republicans would be the first to nail him to a cross.

I’ll just say this about those who are down on the progressives of these United States. I’ll let Christ be the judge of my indiscretions, not some Pius ,self serving hypoctite. Just remember the golden rule Christ taught his flock. What do you think Christ would say about the support of our corporations in purchasing cheap ,contaminated ,sweat shop items from China? Talk about values!man, there’s a hole host of evil there. I’m reminded of Christs reactions to the money changers in the market place.

If christian conservatives have lost their power why are both the Republican and democratic candidates trying to court the christian vote. Why are the dems trying to sell the environment their antiwar positions as moral issue. As for the true moral issues gay marriage and abortion the numbers are on the christian conservative side. Consider gay marriage in every state where the issue has been on the ballet, gay marriage lost every time. As for abortion last year Time magazine reported the most recent polling data on the issue and it showed that 85 % are in part pro-life. Specific 15 % support the current roe v wade rules , 15 % support at total ban ,and 70 % thing abortion should only be legal in cases of rape/incest or to save the life of the mother.

Face it the pro death pro gay satanist/Nazi’s are headed for the “ash heap ” of history.

Believe it, this group could care less about anything but abortion and gay marriage.  However, since most Americans aren’t exactly pro-abortion or pro gay anything, they aren’t anti anything either.  I would like to know how many MEN are in the anti group. 
This is all about power, period.  Keeping the power in the hands of rich, white men.  Since their numbers are down, they are very concerned about women aborting those little white boy babies, or seeing those little white boy babies grow up to be gay.  They’re very protective of “their” group.  And since it appears most people are like sheep, what better way to get hang on to that power.  A little bible thumping and ranting, these guys got them hooked like the sheep they are.  I hope there is accountabiliy after life, just to see these guys get what they deserve in the end because I don’t see much questioning of their motives from this group of humans…....

I say, let this generation of vipers spend time wandering in the wilderness—-say, 40 years—-and may they be happy with their lot. I’m a Christian myself, but not an “evangelical”; I’m for Ron Paul.

#109432 by Outraged

I know you’re right Outraged, about sincere Christians. I guess I just don’t know that many sincere Christians. (Which is pretty sad, considering how many Christians I know.

Even the ones that I know, who aren’t in agreement with this obsession with abortion and gay rights, still don’t necessarily seem all that “sincere” to me. Seems that the bulk of them fall in the category of superstitious hocus pocus worshippers at best, and downright hypocrites at worst.

That’s not to say that I don’t know SOME sincere ones, but most of them fall into what I can only call the popular cult.

Still, sincere folks of ANY stripe, are likely to know that they’ve been had, and not like it one damn bit.

Meantime, I STILL will never understand how abortion ever came to be such a political issue. Or gay-marriage for that matter. I’ve tried my best to understand it, and I just can’t. Probably more the abortion issue than anything. Why does anybody care whether or not someone they don’t even know, and are not likely to ever meet, should choose to have an abortion?

I keep trying to find some logic to that argument, even if it’s twisted logic. Is is somehow supposed to be against the will of God? If so, have they ever considered the number of miscarriages and still births, that would make it appear the God is the ultimate abortionist? I mean, if that’s what it’s about, then how do so many pregancies terminate themselves? What about all of these infant mortality rates? Is that somehow different and alas…ACCEPTABLE?

These people scare me.

Looks like they forgot that sincere Christians are well, sincere, and that’s a good thing.  They don’t like to be had.  I personally don’t know a one of them who trusts the Republicans anymore, at all.  They lied, cheated and stole.  Sincere Christians do not take that lightly.  I think most attended to put to rest any lingering doubt that there could be any truth in any of these candidates.

It’s too bad that some of these religious leaders aren’t candidates because then the truth about them would be revealed also.  I don’t think sincere Christians would take that lightly.  In fact, I know it.

Isaiah 57:4
Whom are you mocking? At whom do you sneer and stick out your tongue? Are you not a brood of rebels, the offspring of liars?