#106475 by Conservative Yankee

...“Just two things that might change your mind…
I’m keeping my guns!
and
I don’t like government sponsored cash give-a-ways….TO ANYONE, including Lockheed/Martin!”

Well CY, we’re still OK, even with this. I admit I’m not fond of guns, but I don’t have a problem with the Constitution that allows for the “bearing of arms”. My problem with guns is only that they wind up in the hands of every thug, hoodlum with a few bucks, and that they also wind up in the hands of those who would take their own lives, or shoot up schools, and that sort of thing.

I’m trusting (by now) that this is not your intention, and so that’s fine. You can keep your guns.

As for government bailouts of Lockheed Martin, I’m DEFINITELY with you on that. So…we’re fine there. I don’t believe in Corporate Welfare for ANY of them!!

I didn’t believe they should bail-out the airline industry when they did either. And, I’m sure I could think of others.

#106275 by driving bear on 10/11 at 10:19 am

•  A Question to ALL who will give an answer.
Driving bear, maybe the question should be slightly re-worded to ALL who CAN give an answer. So, that would be the first step to your ultimate question, and I don’t think there are many who can, for the reasons you’ve mentioned.

•  The true problem is not the media or corporate campaign money.

Here’s where you trip up though….just in comparing things that are not mutually exclusive, (at least not to the problem of the concentration of Paris Hilton and whomever else you mentioned). You’re comparing media and corporate campaign money. What does corporate campaign money have to do with the shallow focus of American attention on whether or not J Lo has on underwear?

So, in order to offer a ‘method’ for your goal, and to answer your question:
•  So my question is HOW DO WE CONVENCE MUSHROOMS TO COME INTO THE LIGHT?

We first have to acknowledge that you’re wrong on your premise that the “media” is NOT the problem. Because…it IS!! How else do you imagine that the mushrooms became mushrooms to begin with? They like to stay in the dark, and be fed a lot of crap. Where is the best place to thrive as a mushroom? Humm, how about anywhere the mainstream media is? (That is, the MSM of the 21st Century).

MY own “guess” is that you might want to try your persuasion (convincing them to come into the ‘light’ – which I call the “TRUTH”) by convincing them to turn off the TV, avoid the tabloids, avoid the religious rhetoric, and before you know it, they’ll be coming into the light. (Truth) because they won’t have that same crap to thrive on, in the dark.

The OTHER alternative, is to try to put some of that truth, (rather than the crap) IN the media, which will work far better (at least for some) than just trying to cut them off entirely. I mean, how are you gonna get a TV junkie to give up the TV? How do you ‘convince’ anyone who has already been ‘programmed’ by the media, other than to re-program ‘the media’?

In other words, we are what we eat. If the media stops serving the crap, the mushrooms will have to start eating something else.
That’s my contribution.

CY & Cyrena.  Kudos to both of you.  Now if only we could reach out to a few million more people—well, at least every one we know.

#106195 by Conservative Yankee

....“Done Yesterday, now I’m a Democrat for the first time since they shot Robert Kennedy.”...

Hot Damn CY!!

You have just made my day (10-11-07)!

I am so proud of you/us. We’re in the same box now!!

I’m sending you a hug. (you can always change your mind later) even when you’re skruff. (I liked you then too, and I just don’t picture you as a knuckle-dragging neanderthal). So now, you’re not even a wing-nut. We might even be able to hang our flags out again.

You GO! - CY - YEY!!

A Question to ALL who will give an answer.

In looking back on politics over my lifetime ( I’m 36 )I have come to one conclusion. The true problem is not the media or corporate campaign money but instead that a large percentage of the American population want to be mushrooms. Let me explain a mushroom is a plant (well technically a fungi) that wants to ” be in the dark and fead lots of crap”
To American mushrooms the important issues of the day are is Paris Hilton wearing underwear today, is J Lo pregnant etc..

I for one do not think any progress will be made until mushrooms want to come into the light.
So my question is HOW DO WE CONVENCE MUSHROOMS TO COME INTO THE LIGHT?

#106143 by Ernest Canning on 10/10

Leefeller, the beauty of American Democracy is that you can ignore what the polls and the pundits tell you.  Turn off CNN and Fox, march into the voting booth and vote for what’s real—Kucinich—as opposed to plastique—Clinton, Obama, Edwards, Giuliani (pick none).

=================
Well Ernest,

This is exactly what I’M gonna do. (and feel real good about it too!) You’ve been very helpful in directing my attention this way, but in the end, the other 3 disqualified themselves. (at least for me). (and I wouldn’t have even considered any of the repugs, so it was only a matter of me waiting to see, hear, and figure out where the dems were at). I’d be OK with Gravel as well, though he’s made it clear that he would ONLY do one term. So, maybe he can do a VP slot to help Kucinich out of this huge mess.

It’s gonna take some time to fix this shit.

Earnest I was getting ready to post another rant, but I will make this short, my vote will be for Kucinich or Gravel when the time comes, sorry for the snow ball analogy, equipment break downs and such had me in a negative mode. 

Must vote for Integrity. What is so sad the media has Hillary in the bag, which is where she should be.

Leefeller, the beauty of American Democracy is that you can ignore what the polls and the pundits tell you.  Turn off CNN and Fox, march into the voting booth and vote for what’s real—Kucinich—as opposed to plastique—Clinton, Obama, Edwards, Giuliani (pick none).

CY, better hurry up and change party registration to Dem if you want to vote for Dennis.

Look even though I do not like Hillary, I will be forced to vote for the best of the worst again. So the poll may not be correct.  To bad we do not have a choice of anyone with even a little integrity.

Kucinich, Gravel and Ron Paul are the only ones who have spoken out against the war, snow balls melting into the sunset.  Money talks for money’s sake.

Reply to #105962 by Myronh on 10/10 at 6:07 am
I think H. Clinton will be the candidate for the democrats. On the GOP side I think the candidate will be either Rudi or Mike Huckabee. If I had to give odds on the General election I think the GOP will keep the White house because to many people hate H. Clinton , A poll mentioned on this site put the number at 52 % . I don’t see her turning this around, because she has been in the public eye since 92 and for good or bad people have formed their opinion of her

Politics in the United States, control of the mass media keeping the public blind, for politicians are expert pullers of the strings and ropes like the wizard in” The Wizard of Oz”, experienced snake charmers, evangelical opportunists, using manipulation as means to an end. 

Intended as a service to the county like jury duty, instead when politics becomes a mindset goal and career it becomes the bane of society, personal agendas, to accumulate wealth and power is a powerful drive.

Hillary, is a perfect example, stomps not steps of opportunism are so obvious.  Stench of money much more apparent then most other politicians, success of course in her case, so now Hillary supports the war.

All Commentors: Start our own Poll. Who do you think will be the next President?

question for #105771 by Conservative Yankee on 10/09 at 7:44 am
 
I have a question about NH. you said NH is a conservative state but went democratic. When you say democratic do you mean the state went more liberal or is a NH democrat like southern democrats who tend to be more conservative aka “Dixiecrat’s”

#105780 by RJ Crane

....“I doubt even the hawkish Repubs would want to vote for any bill sponsored by him. Everyone of these war bills should have to fist pass the Larry Craig smell test”.....

RJ CRANE

Seems like I just read a headline that Larry Craig was to be ‘voted’ into the Iowa Hall of Fame. (no, I didn’t read it…)

So, I don’t think that’s gonna work. They aren’t gonna stop this long planned OIL HEIST, and as long as we keep paying for it, that’s that much longer they can hold onto their own money.

Still, when the bottom completely drops out, and there’s no more of our own money left to use, Halliburton is already poised right there in Dubai, to continue the eternal project.

He’s not leaving without that OIL.

CY, an especially good, scientific approach to the issue is provided by Steven F. Freeman, PhD & Joel Bleifuss in “Was the 2004 presidential election stolen? exit polls, election fraud and the official count.”

In the meantime, heed the words of the infamous dictator, Joseph Stalin:  “Those who cast the votes decide nothing.  Those who count the votes decide everything.”

If you really want to see the war end it’s actually simpler that making the GOP pay for it. All you need to do is insist that any spending bills or other bills that keep this war going in the Senate be sponsored by Larry Craig.  I doubt even the hawkish Repubs would want to vote for any bill sponsored by him. Everyone of these war bills should have to fist pass the Larry Craig smell test.

RJ Crane, editor
topplebush.com

CY, the question is whether voters “lied” to pollsters in the 2002 NH election or whether there was vote tampering.

#105708 by Conservative Yankee

This time it’s the cell-phone crowd which is being under counted. Polling organizations are blithly running along counting land-line voters, but demographics come into play here too. The Cell population is generally younger, informed by the web, rather than radio or TV, or if TV, outside “traditional” news sources.

We could have a serious upset here folks…. IF the US citizens exhibit unsheparded behavior.
.............................

Thanks CY, for this historical reminder, and the things that we need to keep in perspective. I couldn’t have said it nearly as well.

We’re in the same box on this one.

If the politicians refuse to cut the Iraq War funding, then why don’t the anti-war folks just walk down to their local bank and ask for their money in Canadian dollars?

Nobody would lose any money because the more people who demanded Canadian dollars, the higher the value of the Canadian dollar would become.

It sure beats depending on street protests and having to schedule time to attend protests.

By exchanging funds at the bank, you could do it on your own time and quietly without much scheduling problems.

Calm

#105644 by driving bear

...I don’t mean to be a killjoy, but I don’t think Kucinish can overtake H. Clinton in so short a time.”...

I understand and agree with the “politics” of what you’re suggesting here db. IOW, the REALITY of the set-up. The “TIME” element. And, based on conventional analysis, (like the math) I have to agree with you. So, you’re not really being a ‘killjoy”, but simply stating the reality, which many others have already come to, even right here on this thread.

The prediction is that the next president has already been determined. Guiliani (am I spelling his name correctly?) That’s what the real grapevine has to say/think. A reward for his cooperation in the 9-11 operation.

Now that reality of course, would make all of this other posturing, and all of the campainging, and all of the whole thing, pretty much a wasted effort. (not to mention the billions of dollars involved).

Now, THAT’S the ‘grapevine’ from those who think that we will actually HAVE an election. Others (on both sides of the partisan aisle) have considered the high probability that elections will be cancelled between now and a year from now, as we will no longer be a democracy with an executive branch, even in “name” or on paper.

For so many of us, we are simply at the coup d’etat stage of the Coup that began with the December 2000 judical appointment of the Cheney Regime. Others will argue that it didn’t occur until 9-11, and still others will argue that it began even earlier. All have various supporting elements.

But, I guess I said all of that to say that just as you don’t believe that anyone can overtake Hillary on the dem side, nobody can overtake Guiliani on the Repug side, and that’s only if we actually do go through the motions of pretending to have a democratic election.

So, I’m admitting to playing into the same fantasy of anyone else, when even discussing the ‘odds’ or chances of any specific candidate, based on conventional wisdom of the past.

Our system is no longer what we thought we had, (even with all of it’s flaws) prior to the turn of the New Century. We can entertain ourselves with political predictions, (as we always have) but that’s really all that it is. Like working a cross-word or something similar. All in all, it’s a facade.  The results are already determined.

#105416 by Ernest Canning on 10/07 at 5:19 pm: “...Your right, Doug, voting for Bush’s buddies is not a way forward.  That is precisely why I wouldn’t vote for Hillary….”

I think we can agree that neither Ron Paul nor Hillary Clinton are Bush’s buddies, actually, Ernest.

That leaves the issue of how democracy splits people into two camps (instead of a ‘unity government’) and thus the careers of half of the “most experienced and most qualified” people are effectively wasted and their talents and abilities are forever lost to their country.

Reply to #105523 by cyrena on 10/08 at 9:58 am

Cyrena I think you are overlooking one big problem you will have in building grass roots support for Dennis Kucinish.  TIME With so many of the primaries being early this election cycle a candidate can have enough delegates to win the either parties nomination by Feb 5 08 , super Tuesday . that’s only 119 days away ( I did the math )

I don’t mean to be a killjoy, but I don’t think Kucinish can overtake H. Clinton in so short a time.

#105441 by driving bear

OK, I understand better now, where you’re at DB. I’m not that far. I’m only at the primaries now, so that’s what I had in mind in the last post. There is no way that I personally could endorse any of the republican candidates that are currently in the race. So, I had already narrowed down my own pool of choices from the dems, and the 3 forerunners are out.

And, as a general rule I do find some legitimacy in poll data. But, not this time around, and not this far out. For now, Clinton is holding the dem lead, and we know that she is not anti-war. None of the repugs (besides Ron Paul I guess) claim to be anti-war. Ron Paul is not acceptable to me or even most dems, because of the religious thing. I would suggest that the Christian right has wrecked as much havoc on our society in the past decade than even GW alone. (or GW couldn’t have wrecked the havoc without them).

As the time draws closer, and after the primaries, maybe I’ll actually pay closer attention to the poll numbers. For now, it’s probably a waste of time. I would like to believe that we might just come up with a “silent majority” showing for Kucinich, but I don’t know that.

In the times that we live in now, this polling info is simply not as useful as it may have been in the past. Just think, the Cheney Thugs have been able to live in the WH for the last 7 years, and we never elected them, either time. They stole the DC property in the Judicial Coup of 2000, (we elected Al Gore, and the Cheney team took over). Then in 2004, John Kerry won, and they still wouldn’t move out.

What can I say?

That

Ron Paul’s the “good candidate”, drivingbear. All the rest are war-mongering scoundrels for whom patriotism is the last refuge—-and that goes for the Demos as well as the rest of the Repubs (with a very few glowing exceptions in the opposite camp).

People who won’t vote for Ron Paul because they think he “hasn’t got a chance” are still thinking inside the box, with all due respect. And thinking inside the box is how this country got into its present predicament.

Reply to #105393 by cyrena on 10/07 at 2:36 pm

My logic may sound twisted but it’s the result of making peace between my heart and my brain. Dennis Kucinich has almost no chance of winning the democratic primary. As for Mike Gravel , Rush Limbaugh would stand a better chance in the dem’s primary. I don’t say this as an insult to Gravel or Kucinich and therefore by extension to you , but I took a honest look at the polling data and made my prediction accordingly.

As for Fred Thompson true he has a realistic chance of winning the GOP nomination, however when the dust settles I think the GOP candidate will be either Rudi or Mike Huckabee. The GOP grapevine is alive with talk that the christian right as settled on Huckabee as their guy and the Christian right is still a big player in the GOP. However if had to make a prediction on the GOP , I think Rudi will get it.

In your previous post you ruled out supporting H.Clinton, Edwards or Obama. Just before making this post I visited the RealClearPolitics.com site and the only other democratic candidate with enough support for them to track was Bill Richardson and their polling showed him at single digits in the national and most state polls and at 10.8% in Iowa

Also I don’t see a anti war candidate running as a 3rd party independent.

So I don’t see an Anti war candidate being on the ballet in 08, so again I ask who would be the “good “candidate in 08.

Your right, Doug, voting for Bush’s buddies is not a way forward.  That is precisely why I wouldn’t vote for Hillary.

#105398 by Ernest Canning on 10/07 at 3:17 pm: “...CY, if by some miracle Ron Paul received the nomination and ran against Hillary, I would probably vote Republican for the first time in my life….”

Voting for Bush’s buddies is a way forward???

CY, if by some miracle Ron Paul received the nomination and ran against Hillary, I would probably vote Republican for the first time in my life.

•  So it looks like in 2008 the war will not be an issue because all the candidates will be “pro war “
So in 08 looks like Americans only choice is who they think is the lesser of two evils
I don’t see this logic either DB. There are 3 dems in the primaries at this point, who have indicated they will get out of Iraq. So, we aren’t stuck with any ‘lesser of two evils” (though that was pretty much the case last time around – John Kerry would have been far better of course, because ANY way to get Cheney out of the drivers seat would have been better). But, we’ve got choices here. They just don’t seem to be in your field of vision.

We have Kucinich, Gravel, and Thompson. I’m now a Kucinich supporter, since Hill/Edwards/Obama actually disqualified themselves (for me) at the New Hampshire debates. And, Biden disqualified himself with the partition plan, as well as his indication that he too, obviously plans to continue the (permanent) military occupation of Iraq.

I here the new plan is:

• 
1. the USA helps the Sunni win the current civil war with Shia.

This is true. It’s been in the WH – Cabal discussion for probably close to two years. At least that’s when I first began hearing of it. (in the major media)
2. A strong Sunni central government will be established.

That’ what the cabal hopes – at this point, since the other deal with the Shia didn’t work out. The Cheney Cabal has been supplying the Sunni with arms and other logistical support for this, for quite some time. (even though they were the ones originally labeled as the “terrorists, insurgents, rebels, etc”
3. A strong Sunni Iraq will be used to put pressure on Iran in case bush does not get permission to attack Iran. ( this is the fallback position)

The attack on Iran has been planned for years, but hasn’t been able to go forward, in part because the Iraqis have thwarted the efforts of the original goal there…to sign over the oil. So, an attack on Iran is not a ‘fallback’ position. It’s a planned position, and it’s not dependent on cheney getting “permission”. Did he get “permission” to attack Iraq? No! Nope! Negative! They tried, (just to satisfy the legal issue of all of that) and when it didn’t come through, they attacked anyway, making up the variety of ‘excuses’ that they did. It’s a déjà vu with Iran, (same lead-up of deception – pretending that Iran is a “threat” when they are only a ‘threat’ if they are attacked first)

The other reason that cheney hasn’t been able to do the ‘full speed ahead’ on Iran, is simple enough…there’s already been a massive “awareness” this time, by the public at large, as well as the military commanders that have to actually carry it out. So…that’s got cheney slightly hamstrung, but I suspect not for long. There is a huge force hanging out in the Persian Gulf, ready to strike at the word. But here again, there is open resistance among those who actually have to do the deed. That’s why Cheney was going to have Israel hit them, (like over a year ago) but they got deterred after they decided to attack Lebanon –again- last summer.

So, that’s what’s on the grapevine, but I definitely wouldn’t call it a “dem” grapevine. It’s just the facts. I’m quite sure repugs know this as well.

Mudwollow, if you don’t think Nancy Pelosi has been opposing Bush on any issues, you need to read the news more.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/03/bush.veto/index.html

#105321 by driving bear

Well, DB, you’ve got a case of ‘tortured’ logic on how/why the dems are worse than the repugs, but I’ll accept that as the standard thinking for your ideology. (I know others who will do these mental calisthenics and more, to get to whatever..and it’s ok)

On the impeachment thing, you’ve just confirmed your original statement, (that it’s all about Pelosi politics – we call it ‘real politick”). She knew she wasn’t going to get any support, so that’s why she didn’t do it. Thing is, it’s her JOB to have done it. Not ONLY her job, but the job of the entire Congress. Now, if she (because of her political goals) refused to take it on, that’s one thing. But she HAMMERED anybody else who suggested it, for the same reasons that you sighted she is willing to allow soldiers to continue to die. Politics.

Again, it was her JOB, as it is the job of every member of Congress, to uphold the Constitution. They take an oath to do it, and we pay them to do it. And, it’s something far too critical to put in a partisan light. It’s not dem/repug/other. It’s supposed to be about ‘we the people’.

I’ve attached a link here, so you can familiarize yourself with those dems who are actually not dems. It’s a problem.

The Democrats Who Enable Bush
  By Helen Thomas
  Hearst Newspaper

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/100607F.shtml

#105362 by Conservative Yankee on 10/07 at 10:43 am:  - 105354 by driving bear on 10/07 at 10:11 am: “...I hate to break it to you but Madonna has a better chance of being elected the next pope than Dennis K. has of winning the democratic primary….”

Actually I’m considering registering Democrat, just so I can vote for Kucinich….”

While you’re checking out Madonna’s health care plan, we are already aware that you are plying the deceptive Republican ploy of advocating splitting the Democrats’ vote if you can’t succeed in shouting everyone down first, CY, uhh.

To consular 1

I posted a comment in another thread concerning the plan for Iraq . I cut and pasted it here

#104510 by driving bear on 10/03 at 5:48 pm
(86 comments total)

I here rumors from the gop grapevine that the soft partition plan is off the table. I here the new plan is:
1. the USA helps the Sunni win the current civil war with Shia.
2. A strong Sunni central government will be established.
3. A strong Sunni Iraq will be used to put pressure on Iran in case bush does not get permission to attack Iran. ( this is the fallback position)

In essence bush is trying to reset the clock to so Iraq will be like it was in 1990 before the first gulf war

Has any one heard any rumors like this from the Democratic grapevine

To #105343 by Counselor1 on 10/07 at 9:02 am
FYI Israel’s PM Ariel S. told bush before the war that the US would end up in the mess it’s in if Bush invaded Iraq.

driving bear, the only thing preventing a Kucinich election is the mainstream media’s continuous effort to marginalize him and people like you who buy into that marginalization.

To #105335 by Ernest Canning on 10/07 at 7:58 am
I hate to break it to you but Madonna has a better chance of being elected the next pope than Dennis K. has of winning the democratic primary.

Counselor1, If I, and other Democratic progressives, were to “de-register” from the Democratic Party, it would mean that we could not vote in the primary for Dennis Kucinich.  That would concede the nomination to Hillary, who supports leaving our troops in past 2013 and who voted for Kyle-Lieberman which opens the door to an invasion of Iran. 

Me thinks your suggestion is not a very good one.  But thanks for the thought.

Here’s a couple ideas toward another way to hasten the war’s end.    Americans who recognize that time is running out before Bush or Israel get us into a wider, longer war with Iran need to act now. De-register from the Republican and Democratic parties to show your dissatisfaction with the war and vague, false promises of withdrawal by all the money-fueled major candidates. 
  Satisficing is an economists word. It means finding a set of measures, regarded under uncertainty, but likely to maximize (or minimize) some quantity(ies). The quantities here will be casualties and expense in Iraq and in a much wider and longer Middle East War to come. No interest group is going to get everything it wants out of the Iraq disaster. A later than Lancet study of Iraq casualties puts the death toll now at about 1 million Iraqis killed in war by all parties (in addition to our own casualties.) So consider satisficing measures to limit further harm.
    This wider, longer war is a worse alternative.  The longer Congress and presidential candidates take before advocating and legislating satisficing measures, the more likely Bush or Israel is to preemptively attack Iran. Countries like Iran and Pakistan don’t have full control over armed groups in them. Iranians would retaliate by infiltration into Iraq.  Worse: Bush could order an attack that would leave American hostages in Iran, trapping the next president in a hostage crisis.
  Soft partition should mean that U.S. troops, while withdrawing from Iraq’s cities, would escort only willing Iraqis to resettle to zones of others of the same sect.  Under soft partition Iraqis unwilling to move would assume the risk of fighting or making peace. Assumption of risk is a principle of freedom. Door-kickin’-in forcible occupation is a principle of domination.  Baghdad can be partitioned along the Tigris. The Green Zone can be given to Sunni’s moving from east to west Baghdad. Make a gift of Bush’s embassy to the Iraqis. The Kurds have their own government. The Sunnis are out of Maliki’s government. So we should offer Maliki’s government the choice to stay in Baghdad alone or move to a self-defensible base in Shia territory. 
  It’s fantasy to think the Military – Energy – Israel Lobby complex is going to let our troops out of Iraq. So U.S. troops should be redeployed to underpopulated areas to guard Iraq’s oil for a prolonged period. This is the only measure that will induce oil companies to invest the $billions necessary to increase Iraq’s oil production and fund real reconstruction. An enhanced SIGIR could distribute the unjustly low profits equitably to all Iraqis. A large U.N border force is the only thing that could keep Iraq one federated country, let unarmed refugees return and keep us and the Iranians apart. The U.N. performed poorly for Iraqis under sanctions, partly because the U.S. and U.K. blocked shipment of any dual use exports to Iraq and because Iraq’s oil was irresistible to corrupt oil dealers.  But it’s the only game in town where you can rent developing country soldiers, through peace keeping – peace enforcement programs for about $1,000 per month. That’s about what it costs for a U.S. soldier with combat support for one day! And of course, Blackwater mercenaries are paid 4 to 6 times what U.S. soldiers are paid. The U.S. should pay for this force to keep Iraq “one” country. In the long run it will be cheaper than combat support and paying mercenaries. The Israeli’s get out of this a long-term friendly force U.S. occupation in the Middle East area. The Iraqi’s get offers they can’t refuse: we stop killing so many of them, our support for keeping “one” regionalized country, and equitable, if insufficient distribution of profits from their oil.
    When Napoleon and Hitler each invaded Russia, a vast, primitive country with difficult terrain and bad weather, their armies were destroyed. Likewise with the U.S.S.R. in Afghanistan.

driving bear.  There is a real simple means by which one can make the war an “issue” in 2008.  Vote for Dennis Kucinich in the primaries.  If the American electorate does not have the sense to reject someone like Hillary, who says we will still have combat troops in Iraq in 2013 and who recently provided a vote that can be used by the Bush regime as an excuse to invade Iran, then the blame for the continuation of the policy of imperial conquest will no longer reside either with Bush or the so-called “Democratic leadership.”  It will have shifted to We the People.  Then shame on us all.

Reply to #105313 by cyrena on 10/07 at 4:53 am

I must respectfully disagree with you about who is worse Bush or Pelosi/Reid and democrats.
In the 2004 election Bush TOLD the American people that he would continue the war and he has. In the 2006 elections the democrats under Pelosi/Reid leadership told the American people they would end the war. They did not. This makes them worse that Bush.

Also I disagree with you on impeachment. Even if she had the will to do it the odds of it being successful would be less that 1% because impeachment requires 2/3 majority vote. She knew/knows she could not get enough republicans to defect to her side for it to possible. I don’t blame her for not starting something she knows has no chance of working.

So it looks like in 2008 the war will not be an issue because all the candidates will be “pro war “
So in 08 looks like Americans only choice is who they think is the lesser of two evils

#105299 by driving bear

•  he said that Pelosi and the leadership “took him to the wood shed” over the war tax idea.

I didn’t see it myself DB, but I definitely BELIEVE it!! And, that’s why I’m in sad agreement with the rest of your take on Pelosi. I didn’t become aware of the real “Pelosi Agenda” until a couple of years ago, when she did a “virtual” ass-kicking of any democrat in the House, who didn’t go along with her plan. Called Cynthia McKinney everything but the child of God, and like I said…literally cut most of them down, as if they were all children. The “shut up and do it the way I say or else”. They found out the “or else”.

But, that was all sort of “hush-hush” at the time, and politics as usual…the really ugly side of it. So, lots of folks didn’t know maybe, just what side of the fence she was on. But, she removed all doubt when she declared with unequivocal arrogance and all the rest, that “impeachment was off the table”. Period. End of conversation. Not to be considered. Now, if she were really about anything, (other than her own agenda) she would have taken that up (impeachment) as soon as the dems gained even that very slight majority in the both houses of Congress, and she and Reid could have dealt with it right off the bat. There work (the paperwork) was already done.

But, she wasn’t about to ruffle any political feathers. Now in all fairness, the balance of the so-called Dem majority is a myth. So, from that perspective, she knew there weren’t enough votes to make it an “easy” thing, even though the case for impeachment is more than solid, and has been for a very long time. And, we also know that it isn’t a “real” democratic ‘majority’ because the Blue Dog dems always hang with the Repugs in most of these matters, and probably for the same reasons that Pelosi does; To protect their own interests, and NOT as representatives sworn to uphold the Constitution on behalf of those that it represents.

Now, I think it would be pushing it a bit much to suggest that she (or the dems – even the blue dog dems) are WORSE than Dick Cheney-Bush. I don’t think that to be the case at all. They didn’t start this war of aggression. She and her crowd though, HAVE profited from it enormously, and there’s no way that she’s going to take a stand to stop it, for that reason. She IS willing to allow our troops to continue to die, and or be wounded, in order to avoid alienating the power group, so that she can claim a political victory. So, she’s serving her own agenda.

She’s not the only dem doing that though. And, that’s the sad part. Any person, regardless of their political persuasion, who is NOT willing to pull the plug on this immediately, has only their own agenda at hand. (be it personal wealth or political clout/power) And that includes Hill, Barack, (sadly…I had high hopes for him), John Edwards, (I liked him too) and anybody else whose first priority is not ending this war.

The New Hampshire debates found all 3 of the above, UNWILLING to commit to getting us out of Iraq by the end of their first term as Pres, if they were to be elected. In short, they would not commit to ending this occupation before 2013!! (They all hemmed and hawed, and gave the standard political double talk) So, off they go. (at least from my list). Biden too, at least if he’s still in the race. (and I liked him too).

So, all of their true colors are showing. Makes it easier to whittle down the list, but it’s also pretty scary.

I don’t know if any one here saw it but one day last week ( I think it was Wed but I not 100% sure) John Murtha was on MSNBC hardball. he said that Pelosi and the leadership “took him to the wood shed” over the war tax idea.

A previous poster on this tread said Pelosi was loyal to bush, I don’t think so. Pelosi is only loyal to Pelosi.

Bush is getting America’s boys and girls killed for OIL. Pelosi/Reed and the Democrats are getting our boys and girls killed for the hope of a few more votes in 08.
In my opinion this makes Pelosi/Reed and the dems WORSE than Bush
However I think this backfire on Pelosi and Reed, I see a anti war backlash against the democrats in 08.

#105055 by Ga

....“America need to apologize for this war. Why? Because the White House LIED. These LIES have been documented OVER and OVER, and there can be no doubt in any intelligent person’s mind that the Bush Administration took this country to war—invaded another country!—under false pretenses.”

Ga…we’re in total agreement on this. Good to know that more folks are paying attention.

Unfortunately, we did (as Americans) allow this tyrant “Dick Bush” to do the ultimate crime…a war of aggression to capture the resources of another nation, and to basically destroy it’s economy. Maybe because most of us didn’t know.

The fact that we know now, (and have known for at least 3 years) that Dick Cheney et all invaded and occupied Iraq with malicious intent, and plans to do the same to Iran and Syria, should be a wakeup call. But, I’m not sure enough of America is ‘tuned in” yet or is willing to do a democratic duty to prevent it.

Still. At least the awareness is reaching more folks. That may help.

RE: #105152 by William Ries on 10/06

“Who knows, maybe actually implementation of some or any one of the ideas currently espoused to end the war may bring about real change. But to the two major political parties, maintaining the current status quo, getting re-elected and increasing their party’s majority appears more on line with their agenda.”

William:

Maybe and maybe not.  I believe that both parties are beginning to understand that they will not be reelected if something doesn’t change NOW.  It seems to me that Obey knows this although he may very well have wanted to do what he’s doing anyway.  It doesn’t seem to me that the majority of America will have any issue “throwing out” any candidate Repub. or Dem. that doesn’t represent their districts.

This doesn’t mean “no one is safe”.  Obviously, those who are doing their job, making the attempt and fighting for their districts, are in.  The rest are out.  People are watching more than ever, we have more access to the day to day issues and what every member of congress is working toward and how they voted.

So if they’re looking for reelection or maintaining their party’s majority, they better act YESTERDAY.

#105151 by Scott

•  I suppose I’ll have put my money where my mouth is now and withold my taxes. I wonder how far I’ll get claiming conscientious objection to the war and refusing to aid and abet them by supplying them with money?

Well Scott, I admire you for being willing to do exactly this. Withhold your taxes payments. BUT…I have to warn you, that you won’t get far. For instance, I “withheld” some of my taxes as well, (or so the IRS claims) when I was employed. Now that I’m ‘retired-disabled” and collecting the measly “SS” that I paid into over 30 years, the feds are “attaching” that, for taxes that I allegedly failed to pay, some 10 or 12 years ago. So, I’m paying now, (and quite a bit) and they take what they want (from my SS income) before I even get it. In other words, I can’t refuse to pay, or write to tell them that I don’t want to fund a war. Besides, it wouldn’t bother me so much, if my “back taxes” (which I never owed to begin with) were being used to say, provide proper medical care for the troops we’ve already destroyed, by sending them to war. But of course we know that isn’t the case.
So, my only contribution has to be my constant advice to anyone considering serving in the military at this point. I have to tell them NO! DO NOT GO! If we have to have a “volunteer” army to fight this war, (as opposed to a draft) then they just WON’T “volunteer”. And, if they’re already volunteers, then they can just “unvolunteer” as far as I’m concerned.

Now, within minutes, hundreds will accuse me of supporting mutiny by encouraging our troops to go AWOL. I don’t see it that way. I just see it as not giving them our blood, PLUS our treasure.
Unfortunately, that’s not an all-purpose solution, (just don’t supply our blood) since we see that Blackwater, and all others involved in the new “security business” as private enterprise, will continue to fund a private army, and at our expense. But, it’s something.

#105185 by Marshall K on 10/06 at 10:07 am: “...In WWII we were running out of money to fight the war.  The government had to recruit the surviving members of the Iwo Jima flag raising group to tour the country to sell bonds.  If they didn’t sell enough bonds we would have to quit fighting. ......We should not be able to fight a war on credit. It makes it too easy for a clown like W to do exactly what he is doing now….”

That was domestic borrowing/debt then, MarshallK. Today, and since the disastrous military adventure in Vietnam, it has been ever-growing foreign debt.

Now, with leveraged borrowings for buyouts and all manner of financial ‘derivatives’ for investments, the mess is almost incalculable. The truth, though, is that the rest of the world owns America.

You’re right, Thomas.
In WWII we were running out of money to fight the war.  The government had to recruit the surviving members of the Iwo Jima flag raising group to tour the country to sell bonds.  If they didn’t sell enough bonds we would have to quit fighting.
We should not be able to fight a war on credit.  It makes it too easy for a clown like W to do exactly what he is doing now.
If we reinstated the draft (not that I’m advocating it) our involvement in Iraq would be over, if it even would have happened.
The lack of courage and leadership in the Dems is appalling.  There needs to be a radical shift from the present political mindset.
Impeachment proceedings need to start.  Bush and Cheney have broken enough laws to warrant it.

Chicken hawks, on the front lines is like believing their can be real integrity in the White House and congress.  Far reaching fantasy’s expected from politicians are only that.

#105152 by William Ries on 10/06 at 6:43 am: “...A multitude of ideas about how to end this war remain dismissed, ridiculed, or not considerd because of the urgent need of the Dems willing to prostitute themselves to gain control of both branches of government….”

Uhh, aren’t you demeaning protitutes, WR? They only rent their ‘time’. These creeps are selling ownership of themselves in total!

A war sur tax?  Any legitimate idea that smacks of common sense or logic to end or pay for this war continues must be stomped into oblivion..

A multitude of ideas about how to end this war remain dismissed, ridiculed, or not considerd because of the urgent need of the Dems willing to prostitute themselves to gain control of both branches of government.
We may as well sit back in our recliners waiting for action until 2009 because real change moves slowly.

Or, the poplulace can continue pushing common sense ideas on their elected asses in Washington. Ever try to push a jackass?

Everyone knows about this administration’s immoral war.  Financing it by borrowing really pisses me off.  Bring back the accountability. Make those who brought on the war pay for it.

Who knows, maybe actually implementation of some or any one of the ideas currently espoused to end the war may bring about real change. But to the two major political parties, maintaining the current status quo, getting re-elected and increasing their party’s majority appears more on line with their agenda.

Treat the people like mushrooms, keep them in the dark and feed them bullsh*t. Thanks Truth Dig.

We’re all supporting our volunteer troops whether we like to or not every time I remit my taxes.

At the end of the day its not the politicians who are pulling a trigger or releasing a bomb its a volunteer who probably wanted to be there. Every individual is responsible for their actions.

I suppose I’ll have put my money where my mouth is now and withold my taxes. I wonder how far I’ll get claiming conscientious objection to the war and refusing to aid and abet them by supplying them with money?

#104925 by Don Stivers on 10/05 at 8:49 am: “...It goes to show the world just how corrupt the United States government is…... People’s lives are less important than kissing Bush’s ignorant ass….  The Republican government was corrupt beyond believing and the Democratic Congress is SPINELESS…”

Perhaps sending those Democrats to a CHIROPRACTOR would solve all those problems, ha ha?!?!

Jenna can’t go; she’s busy with her book tour.

If it’s not to early for this sort of thing, go to YouTube and watch an interview with Matthew Continnetti. He’s a neocon cheerleader for imperial war. You’ll also notice that he, like his pal Jonah Goldberg(Lucy’s little boy) are young enough to be in the military. Needless to say, they’re not. As Arte Johnson used to say “verrrrry interestinggg”.

You got that right purplewolf and Tao.  The new anti-war slogan should be, “Neocons to the front lines!”

Some other highlights from the war surtax statement:

Obey:
“When you strip away the fog, it’s simply a plan to get us back six months from now to the same place we were six months ago before the surge began.”

“As chairman of the Appropriations Committee, I have absolutely no intention of reporting out of committee any time this session any such request that simply serves to continue the status quo. I also have no intention of acquiescing in a policy that will result in draining the Treasury so dry that it will result in the systematic disinvestments in America’s future.”

“We need to stop pretending that this war doesn’t cost anything. The war will cost future generations billions of dollars in taxes that we’re shoving off on them and it will cost them because it is devouring money that could be used to expand their educational opportunities, expand their job opportunities, attack our long-term energy problems and build stronger communities.”

Murtha:
“This is no longer President Bush’s war; it’s a Republican war. It’s the Republicans in Congress who continue to hand this president a blank check with no policy restrictions for the war in Iraq. This is their war.”

“U.S. Africa event, General Jones told me and (inaudible) said the same thing in NATO, the Chinese are all over Africa because of the resources. We cannot find an African country that will take American headquarters.”

McGovern:
“The president is being put on notice..”

“If he doesn’t, then it’s going to be a very difficult moment come January or February, but the bottom line is the president is the one who is putting our troops in jeopardy to keep them in harm’s way and the president knows right now what the sentiment of Congress is and where the sentiment of the American people are if you read The Washington Post poll today. They want this war over with. They want our troops out of Iraq by the time that this president leaves office.”

You can read the statement from Obey, Murtha and McGovern in its entirety here:

http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?sc_id=322173&keyword;=&phrase;=&contain;=

The war is going to go on because, generally,  “the American people hate a loser.”

Now, I don’t know of Gen. George Patton actually said that, but George C. Scot said that in his portrayal of him in the famous movie.

But this is true in the hearts of many: We cannot pull out of a conflict solely and only because “soldiers are dying.” That would be wrong. And I am a pacifist. I repeat: We cannot pull out for the sole argument of “our soldiers are dying.”

We should pull out because “the war cannot be won.” Or because “our presence is causing the conflict.” Or because “the war is illegal.” Or because “the war is actually decreasing our national security.” Etc., etc.

If the invasion of Iraq was wrong, on false pretenses, a mistake, whatever, we need to withdraw.

But we all know that conservatives are the kind of people who will not never admit a mistake because it will be perceived as a sign of weakness.

Ironically, it is a weakness, a flaw of character, to not be able to admit to a mistake.

America need to apologize for this war. Why? Because the White House LIED. These LIES have been documented OVER and OVER, and there can be no doubt in any intelligent person’s mind that the Bush Administration took this country to war—invaded another country!—under false pretenses.

As long as Bush is in power the war will go on. I truly believe that the only way we will ever get out of Iraq will be to get Ron Paul into office. There is no other candidate Rep or Dem that will bring ALL our troops home.

If a state, whose Governer, comptroller, legislature were in agreement that the war in Iraq was against their interests decided to withold payments to the federal government (Bush) for the war from the weekly shake down of their residents via payroll taxes, what could Bush do?  Send the National Guard, it’s in Iraq, send in Blackwater? too many armed citizens.

As the name implies I’m a states rights advocate, beginning with the Bill of Rights.

I don’t think I can say it any better than contributor, Reason, so I won’t try.  I will ask if anyone else is struck by the irony of wishing for the draft so we can use it to stop the war.  What if we got our wish and someone we love, anyone even one unloved, was chosen, trained and sent before the American people finally woke up and stopped this travesty?  All Quiet on the Western Front?  The Bridges of Tokori?  Johnny Got His Gun?

purplewolf (#104988) might be onto something there.  And maybe the same thing would work with the-“war”-on-poverty, which continues to take such a heavy toll on the poor…. even while somehow beefing-up the bottom lines of the faith-based service sector.

After that we could sic ‘em on cancer (which seems to get only stronger with every “war” measure that doesn’t kill it) and the whole PDR-ful of Dire Straits “....industrial disease.”  Talk about your win-win situations, eh?

Finally, these former draft dodging, AWOL, trust fund babies should be ready to enlist in the “war” on “WAR” itself.  Won’t that be a spectacle for the ages?  And all with never a shot fired in anger.

Is everybody holding their breath?

HokaHey!

THE FASTEST WAY TO END THE WAR IS TO PUT THE TWINS ON THE FRONT LINES ALONG WITH DADDY MONKEYBOY AND CHENEY.IT WOULD END BEFORE THEY WERE FITTED UP FOR THEIR UNIFORMS.

And that’s not even to mention the official crime-spree and free-for-all corruption masquerading as the-global-“war”-on-terror.  Remember the good ol’ days when “The hottest brand going” was CONOCO?  And their gasoline went for 3 gallons a $?

So how d’ya like “WAR” now?

HokaHey!

TAO Walker
The God in me bows to the God in you.

The “war” CAN’T end (and neither can all the “war” cant), so far as its perpetrators and their enablers are concerned, ‘til the Iraqi puppet government signs-away the oil and agrees to the permanent “basing” of an allamerican garrison there.  The same gangsters running today’s extortion/protection racket in the-cradle(and grave?)-of-civilization have practiced their dark arts all across Turtle island, and beyond; to secure for their selves such “resources” as the gold and timber in the Paha Sapa (Black Hills), coal and uranium in Navajoland, and the entire nation of Hawaii….to name just a very few examples.

Nitpicking about who in addict-america gets stuck with this latest bar-bill is just more proof that it isn’t only the rogue regime on the Potomac that’s trapped in a vicious cycle of designer-drug bingeing and death-spiraling denial.  Theamericanpeople as a whole continue to treat their terminal condition with the same old exceptionalist snake-oil that has been such a large part of making them so sick in the first place. 

Bubba Clinton wasn’t just whistling “Dixie” when he kept telling everyone they’re “....all in this together.”  Among americans, as such, there are no “innocent civilians.”  They are all complicit in the 400 year rampage of rape, pillage, and murder that no longer even pretends to be anything else.  If you don’t want to take this old Indian’s word for that, you can find it for yourself right there in the “social contract” titled The Constitution of the United States of America….“We the People, etc., etc, etc.”

This make-believe “nation” is bankrupt….in every possible way one can be.  Yet when faced finally with the sheer immensity of the toxic waste-pit it’s dug itself into, the talk turns, as always, only to (and upon) its make-believe “money.”  Want to call-off the colossally idiotic Iraq oil-grab caper?  You’ve only “got to pick a pocket or two.”  It’s the same stupifying “reasoning” that brought you the cesspool of official corruption and free-for-all crime-spree masquerading as the-“war”-on-drugs.       

“When will they ever learn?” was the soulful sixties musical question.  Here in ought-seven the inescapable answer is:  Not in Time. 

Good thing there remains the eternal Song ‘n’ Dance of LifeHerownself.

Hokahey!

E.J., if Jane Goodall were still alive she’d be hiding in the corners of Congress studying the bizarre habits of the 110th. 
Her beloved specimens have mutated and regressed down to chest thumpin’ and using their stones to smash each others nuts.  And that’s about it.

Find something simple and shinier, instead.

Send Israel the invoice and attach their assets for payment.

The troops will be home before Thanksgiving and America can begin a sincere series of visionary and esteemable 21st. Century WPA-type projects. We can start w/Amtrak, rail and water.

Oil and Israel are America’s liability

It goes to show the world just how corrupt the United States government is.

People’s lives are less important than kissing Bush’s ignorant ass.  The Republican government was corrupt beyond believing and the Democratic Congress is SPINELESS.

Can one imagine what would be going on if the Republicans held the majority in Congress?  They would still be walking around, bobbing their heads like their ignorant leader, George Bush.

Why doesn’t the Geneva Convention put out a warrant for all those responsible for the Iraq war?  Why?

Instead of inflicting yet another burden on all taxpayers, why not simply make all federal politicians from the president down, who wanted the Iraq War, give up their government pensions in order to pay for the idiotic thing? Bush, Cheney, Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Rumsfeld, every present or former House member or Senator who voted for the war and continued to support it by voting for war funds—-make them all give up their pensions!

Naturally, I expect them to react to a suggestion like this like pigs that got their snouts burned on hot swill!

Not to defend Pelosi, but I think her scheme is to achieve a Democratic sweep of both Houses and the presidency in ‘08. In order to assure that, she has to carefully weave a web that will spell death to Republicans, in as many of the 435 districts as possible, at the same time as she doesn’t alienate potential Dem voters in the Senate races and of course in the WH race.

Our only concern, and it’s legitimate, should be will the damage presently being done by the Republicans be so wide-spread and so deep that the nation will never be able to recover - no matter who’s in office.

No doubt Obey got the idea from many truthdiggers who have been suggesting this for years. DUH!
If I were Bush, I’d be eyeing retirement and my gargantuan pension.  Why should he care; he’ll collect another 50 million from taxpayers before he buys the farm.

Taxing the war for the neocons would be just another way of investing in what they support, they consider the military their own private elite guards anyway.  War for them is an investments to pack their coffers.

Just STOP SHOOTING!!! No more excuses!!!

Nancy Pelosi is a tough cookie who works very hard for her team. Unfortunately, Nancy’s chosen team is the George Bush team. President Bush may be nothing more than a spoiled brat draft dodger but with people like Nancy Pelosi supporting him so diligently he can get away with murder.

I get the feeling that Nancy “impeachment off the table” Pelosi would prefer to strangle Iraqi babies with her bare hands then oppose George Bush on any matter. What a woman.

When I first heard of this tax my knee-jerk was ” Is this Obey a looney?” As I thought it over I see that this really is a meesage designed to be an awaking for the American voters to get the message about Bush and his bogus war. The fear merchants have so scared Americans they really believe this stupid war is saving us from terrorists.
They can’t understand that having wide-open borders is more of a problem than fighting and killing our boys in Iraq.
I didn’t like that taxing the low-income was the right thing to do but hitting the rich does put a complexion on how silly this war really is. And when you tax the rich things get done.

This is another way to bring the impact of the Iraq war to all citizens. The intent is similar to that of forcing reinstatement of the draft. I can understand why there are those who think it more fair but I don’t think it is honest.
  I can think of little that is either “honest or fair” in the way this war started or has been executed. The concerns of politicians at this time is more about their being elected or re-elected to office. I am sick of the political rhetoric and the underhanded methods of presidential candidates to side step questions that would show their political intentions. It is time that they state their political opinions and show just a small portion of the courage they expect from the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistsan.
  I hate this war, I don’t respect the Bush administration but I don’t see any politician taking any political stand that would cause real change in the direction our country has been taken.

The only “small ball politics” here is Bush’s refusal to support ANYTHING proposed by a Democrat-period!  This just proves that the bigger the balls, the smaller the brain.  It is far past time to impeach this bozo, charge them all with their crimes and lets put this admin in jail.  A tax on the war now is still just a bandaid, but we have to start somewhere.  Of course I’m not sure who is worse, the criminal who is spending us into generations of debt, or the Dems who are so afraid of this guy, they can’t see straight.  Hey, he’s really not that big, you can take him if you’re not afraid of a bloody nose.  Now get out there and do something…...