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Breaking the Taboo: Why We Took On the Israel Lobby

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Posted on Oct 4, 2007
John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt.
israellobbybook.com

“The Israel Lobby” authors John J. Mearsheimer (left) and Stephen M. Walt.

Eric Chinski, the editor of John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt’s provocative new bestseller, asks the authors whether their book is good for the Jews and good for America.  This interview originally appeared on the Web site of the publishing house Farrar, Straus and Giroux.

Why did your article “The Israel Lobby,” which was published in the London Review of Books in 2006, provoke such heated discussion around the world? James Traub wrote in The New York Times Magazine: “ ‘The Israel Lobby’ slammed into the opinion-making world with a Category 5 force.” How would you describe the reaction?

The article received enormous attention because it challenged what had become a taboo issue in mainstream foreign policy circles, namely the impact of the Israel lobby on U.S. Middle East policy. We did not question Israel’s legitimacy and explicitly stated that the United States should come to Israel’s aid if its survival is at risk, but we did argue that pro-Israel groups in the United States were encouraging policies that were ultimately not in America’s national interest. Although the views we expressed are often discussed openly in other democracies—including Israel itself—they have rarely been set forth in detail by mainstream figures in the United States. The article was also of great interest to many readers because it has become increasingly obvious that U.S. Middle East policy has gone badly awry. Although a number of groups and individuals either mischaracterized our views or attacked us personally, many other readers agreed that such an examination of the lobby’s role was long overdue.

Why did you feel the need to follow up the article with your book “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy”? What more is there to say?

Writing a book provided an opportunity to present a more nuanced and complete statement of our views, and also allowed us to address some of the responses to the original article. Although the article was long by magazine standards, space limitations forced us to omit several key issues and to deal with other topics more briefly than we would have liked. Events like the 2006 Lebanon war had not occurred when the article was published, and additional information about other episodes—such as the U.S. decision to invade Iraq—had since come to light. Thus, writing a book allowed us to refine our analysis and bring it up to date. 

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In particular, the book presents a more detailed definition of the lobby, an extended discussion of its development and rightward drift over time, an examination of the role of the so-called Christian Zionists, and an analysis of the controversial issue of “dual loyalty.” We also offer a more detailed description of the various strategies that groups in the lobby use to advance their goals within the U.S. political system. The book also addresses the widespread belief—as illustrated by Michael Moore’s documentary “Fahrenheit 9/11”—that oil companies are the real driving force behind America’s Middle East policy, and explains why this view is incorrect.

Finally, our original article did not offer much in the way of positive prescriptions, but the book outlines a new approach to U.S. Middle East policy that would better serve U.S. interests and, in our view, be better for Israel as well. To that end, it also identifies how the influence of the lobby might become more constructive, for the good of both countries.

What is the extent of American financial, diplomatic, and military aid to Israel, and how does it compare with other states’?

Israel is the largest recipient of U.S. economic and military assistance, having received more than $154 billion in U.S. aid since its creation in 1948, and it currently receives roughly $3 billion in direct U.S. assistance every year, even though it is now a prosperous country. The United States also consistently gives Israel diplomatic support, and consistently comes to its aid in wartime, as it did during the 2006 war in Lebanon. Most important, U.S. support for Israel is largely unconditional: Israel receives generous American assistance even when it takes actions that the U.S. government believes are wrong, such as building settlements in the Occupied Territories. As former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin once remarked, U.S. backing for Israel is “beyond compare in modern history.”

Isn’t America’s special relationship with Israel based on strong strategic and moral arguments? Isn’t it important for the United States to have an ally that shares our values in a region dominated by extremism and enemies of America?

Israel is not the strategic asset to the United States that many claim. Israel may have been a strategic asset during the Cold War, but it has become a growing liability now that the Cold War is over. Unconditional support for Israel has reinforced anti-Americanism around the world, helped fuel America’s terrorism problem, and strained relations with other key allies in Europe, the Middle East, and Asia. The United States derives some tangible strategic benefits from its close security partnership with Israel, but it pays a high price for them. On balance, it is more of a liability than an asset.

Similarly, the moral case for unconditional U.S. support is not compelling. Israel is a democracy, but no other democracy gets the same level of support that Israel does—and so unconditionally. There is a strong moral case for Israel’s existence, which is why we support a Jewish state in Palestine and believe the U.S. should come to its aid if its survival is jeopardized. But many of Israel’s policies—especially the continued occupation of the West Bank and its refusal to allow the Palestinians a viable state of their own—are at odds with key U.S. values. Viewed objectively, the early Zionists’ behavior during the founding of the Jewish state and Israel’s later behavior toward the Palestinians and its Arab neighbors undermine the myth of Israel as victim and the Arabs as aggressors. 

The strategic and moral rationales for unconditional U.S. support have grown weaker since the end of the Cold War, yet U.S. support has continued to increase. This anomaly suggests that some other factor is at work.


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Robert's avatar

By Robert, October 22, 2007 at 6:24 pm Link to this comment

October 16, 2007

Follow the Leader

The Open Secret About the Israel Lobby

By PAUL FINDLEY

“There is an open secret in Washington. I learned it well during my 22-year tenure as a member of the U.S. House of Representatives. All members swear to serve the interests of the United States, but there is an unwritten and overwhelming exception: The interests of one small foreign country almost always trump U.S. interests. That nation of course is Israel.

Both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue give priority to Israel over America. Those on Capitol Hill are pre-primed to roar approval for Israeli actions whether right or wrong, instead of at least fussing first and then caving. The White House sometimes puts up a modest and ineffective show of resistance before it follows Israel’s lead.

In 2002, President Bush publicly ordered Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon to end a bloody, destructive rampage through the Palestinian West Bank. He wilted just as publicly when he received curt word from Sharon that Israeli troops would not withdraw and would continue their military operations. A few days later President Bush invited Sharon to the White House where he saluted him as a “man of peace.”

I had similar experiences in the House of Representatives. On several occasions, colleagues told me privately that they admired what I was trying to do in Middle East policy reform but could not risk pro-Israel protest back home by supporting my positions.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/findley10162007.html

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By Tony Wicher, October 22, 2007 at 6:13 pm Link to this comment

PH,

From the article above:

“The lobby is a loose coalition of individuals and groups that actively works to push American policy in ways that will benefit Israel. It is not a cabal or conspiracy, or a single, hierarchical organization with a central leadership and total unanimity of views. Rather, it is a set of groups and individuals who all favor steadfast U.S. support for Israel but sometimes disagree on certain policy issues. Prominent groups in the lobby include the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL); Christians United for Israel (CUFI), and pro-Israel think tanks like the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and the American Enterprise Institute (AEI). Leading individuals in the lobby include the heads of these various organizations, as well as neoconservatives who served in the Bush administration like Elliott Abrams, John Bolton, Douglas Feith, Paul Wolfowitz, and David Wurmser, some of whom are closely associated with hard-line pro-Israel think tanks and conservative politicians in Israel, or Christian Zionists like John Hagee of CUFI and ... Tom DeLay (R-Texas).

“Religious and ethnic identity does not define who is part of the lobby, as it includes gentiles as well as Jewish-Americans. It is the political agenda of an individual or a group, not ethnicity or religion, that determines whether they are part of the lobby. Thus, the Israel lobby is not synonymous with American Jewry, and “Jewish lobby” is not an appropriate term for describing the various groups and individuals that work to foster U.S. support for Israel.”

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By Howard, October 22, 2007 at 6:13 pm Link to this comment

Gen. George Keagan, former head of U.S. Air Force Intelligence, stated publicly that “Israel is worth five CIAs,” with regard to intelligence passed to our country. He also stated that the yearly $1.8 billion that Israel received in military assistance was worth $50 to $60 billion in intelligence, R&D;savings, and Soviet weapons systems captured and transferred to the Pentagon. In contrast to our commitments in Korea, Japan, Germany, and other parts, not a single American serviceperson needs to be stationed in Israel. Considering that the cost of one serviceperson per year — including backup and infrastructure — is estimated to be about $200,000, and assuming a minimum contingent of 25,000 troops, the cost savings to the United States on that score alone is on the order of $5 billion a year.

Israel effectively secures NATO’s southeastern flank. Its superb harbor, its outstanding military installations, the air and sea lift capabilities, and the trained manpower to maintain sophisticated equipment are readily at hand in Israel. It is the only country that makes itself available to the United States in any contingency. Yes, Israel is not a burden, but a tremendous asset to the United States.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 22, 2007 at 6:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

PatrickHenry on 10/22 at 4:13 pm
(232 comments total)

ITW aka windbag

I almost forgot.

#108723

“I NEVER heard anything of the sort and I’m pretty well informed”

http://www.aci.net/kalliste/pollard_em.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/11/7 /154220.shtml

All bull$#!t links—one of them starts with the phony Moslem-extremist claim that the WTC was attacked by Jews.

The one SUPPOSEDLY from a Toronto newspaper starts off by calling Pollard “The Jewish Dreyfus”.  Clearly it’s yet ANOTHER forgery by the ignorant anti-semites.  Do you even know why, BenedictArnold?

So my statement stands. I know of no REAL source (rather than invented) that indicates Pollard got anyone killed.

BenedictArnold’s use of nazi blogs, crackpot blogs, and clear forgeries (that he can’t detect), and his inability to cite ONE legitimate source puts him squarely in the camp of the neo-nazis.  Then he’ll whine about being called anti-semitic.  Tough $#!t. That’s what you are and your posts prove.

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By Robert, October 22, 2007 at 6:05 pm Link to this comment

If Americans Knew What Israel Is Doing! VIDEO WAS CENSORED!

TAKE A LOOK AT ISRAEL’S GRUESOME IDF “CHILD MURDERERS”. TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THESE SADISTIC CRIMINALS…WATCH THEM BREAKING PALESTINIAN TEENAGERS “BONES” WITH ROCKS AND STONES.

IF ONLY AMERICANS REALLY KNEW…!!!

WATCH WHAT PAUL FINDLEY HAS TO SAY.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWjYHP91gA

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By Tony Wicher, October 22, 2007 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

RE #108847 by PatrickHenry on 10/22 at 3:07 pm

PH,

You also might want to consider that “the Israel Lobby” is a three-headed monster of which Israel is only one head. The other two are Christian fundamentalist evangelicals and good old-fashioned imperialists like Cheney, Rumsfeld et al. It is the combination of all three forces that is such a threat to democracy.

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By Tony Wicher, October 22, 2007 at 5:42 pm Link to this comment

RE #108847 by PatrickHenry on 10/22 at 3:07 pm

PH,

You also are unable to distinguish between Zionism and Judaism, which means the Zionists have you right where they want you. If you want to stop Zionism, this is the distinction you need to make. We need to join with democratic Jews and together we can defeat Zionism. Your approach actually justifies Zionist accusations of anti-Semitism and isolates all Jews from the rest of the American people. That is what Zionists want, since ultimately all Jews will have to migrate to Israel, which is their insane plan.

I myself am more in the nature of a Jewophile, if there is such a word. I think many of the finest people in this country are Jewish, and I want to keep them here. In fact, any Israelis who would like to give up on Israel altogether - it was a really lousy idea in the first place - and move here are welcome as far as I am concerned. I’m looking forward to the first Jewish American president.

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By PatrickHenry, October 22, 2007 at 5:13 pm Link to this comment

ITW aka windbag

I almost forgot.

#108723

“I NEVER heard anything of the sort and I’m pretty well informed”

http://www.aci.net/kalliste/pollard_em.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/11/7/154220.shtml

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By PatrickHenry, October 22, 2007 at 4:07 pm Link to this comment

Tony,

The term semite isn’t the sole property of the jews, Arabs are also semites, not “islamofascists” the new political “buzzword”, parroted by arm chair warriors or anti-semites.

Politics aside, does anti-semite mean that I don’t like you because:

1.  Your 2% minority ethnic/religion has hijacked my countries foreign policy, by an inordinate number of lobbiests, for the benefit of a foreign nation. The consequences of those foreign policy decisions have made it unsafe for me to travel worldwide and have encumbered my travel by unreasonable search and seizure (of my shampoo).  My constitutional rights suffer as a result.

2.  Your 2% minority ethnic/religion through concerted effort, has exercised effective control over what I see and read in the American press concerning select foreign nations, Presidential candidates and most importantly what is reported and what isn’t, to the benefit of your agenda.

3.  Your 2% minority ethnic/religion through their ADL lobbiests mentioned in #1 and threatened by #2 have submitted legislation to curtail my free speech in this country by defining anything I say contrary to their ethnic/religion and published by #2 as “hate speech”.  Don’t dare deny the holocaust or your an Islamofascist.  (There have been many holocausts in recorded history).

Out of the 5 - 6 million jewish americans in this country, many are truely honest & just.  I’m sure they are disgusted with the things that I have mentioned because it raises their taxes and hinders their travel, however, I do believe over 51% (which constitutes a majority) like things just the way they are because they helped make them that way and could give a shit about what the majority thinks.
(Sound like any posters you know).

If you can’t see what I have described then you are asleep.

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By Tony Wicher, October 22, 2007 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment

#108788 by Howard on 10/22 at 9:30 am
(95 comments total)

“No thanks, just looking for a good ally in that part of the world where we don’t have to many.”
————————————————————————-
Howard,

I hope Israel and the U.S. will continue to be staunch allies, but as it is now, with friends like Israel, who needs enemies? When Israel stops pretending to be a democracy and ends its Zionist apartheid policies and becomes a real democracy, then it will be a friend worth having.

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By Aretologist, October 22, 2007 at 3:34 pm Link to this comment

If there is no deliberate alliance of Jews throughout the world, if they are not all working together with the same goal in mind -  control of the world -  then the remarkable control which they have achieved today (in Australia, England, France, Europe, Egypt, Iraq, America, Canada, Japan, Italy, Germany) must be the simple result, not of
deliberate collaboration of Jews throughout the world - but of accident and chance.

In other words all the nations (with the exception of 3 or 4) have gotten into line naturally and spontaneously behind America and Israel rather than Iran, Syria and the Palestinians.

With no outside force influencing or impelling them.  This is what the Jews want us to believe?
Somebody correct me if I am wrong but I don’t believe something like that could happen even in the craziest insane asylum in the world.

I theorize that the only way the Americans can live with themselves and their subservience to the Israelis is to deny and bury it because it creates to much consonant dissonance. True reality drives them crazy so they create and embrace a specious corrupted reality in order to be able to live with themselves -  with the unpleasant aspects and contradictions in their character and nature.

At the same time the Americans want to help the Jews make the rest of world like them i.e., subservient. Thus America’s subservience is not unnatural or something to be ashamed of - it is normal.

To fully support the Jews is “normal” in America.  This is why Florida Governor Crist saw nothing aberrant in placing a Jewish mesuzah on his door. And this will become “normal” for all of mankind in the not-too-distant future.

If the Jews can gain control of America - and they have - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said “We (Israel) own America” - then the Jews should eventually be able to gain control over the whole world.

The humane Jew is conscious of this and is concerned. But why Jews like Mearsheimer, Finkelstein, Chomsky and thousands of others are distressed I don’t know.  They shouldn’t be. What is wrong with being owned if you are happy and all your needs are satisfied?  If there is one thing that humans do well is to adapt.  And the rest of the world will adapt to being subservient to the Jews as easily as America has.

And to make it official, a fat lady from Israel will - or should -  come and sing to the UN General Assembly.

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By Tony Wicher, October 22, 2007 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

Re #108727 by Aretologist on 10/22 at 4:05 am

Unfortnately, this comment is representative of the new American anti-Semitism, which has been growing every day in this country precisely because of the activities of the Israel lobby to control U.S. policy and political dialogue in support of the Zionist policies of the state of Israel. This has nothing to do with Jews or Judaism as such, but commenters such as this one lack the political clarity to make the distinction, and so fall into anti-Semitism. Thus Jewish Americans must realize that the Israel lobby policy of suppressing criticism of Israel and the U.S.- Israel alliance by calling it anti-Semitic is precisely INCREASING anti-Semitism all over the country, and they must tell the ADL and other organizations that they are supposed to be FIGHTING anti-Semitism, not PROVOKING it by enforcing conformity to Israeli government policy.

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By Howard, October 22, 2007 at 10:30 am Link to this comment

No thanks, just looking for a good ally in that part of the world where we don’t have to many.

Israel is the major strategic asset of the United States in an area of the world that is the cradle of Islamo-fascism, which is dominated by tyrants and permeated by religious obscurantism and shows almost total disregard for human rights. During the decades-long Cold War, Israel was America’s indispensable rampart against the inroads of the Soviet Union. It is now the bulwark against the aggressive intentions of Iran. During Desert Storm, Israel provided invaluable intelligence, an umbrella of air cover for military cargo, and had personnel planted in the Iraqi deserts to pick up downed American pilots.

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By weather, October 22, 2007 at 9:48 am Link to this comment

Howard, if you Love Israel, go and live there,  support it and heal it, for there is no country that has ever inflicted more damage on these United States.

It’s not a relationship, its an affliction all very carefully dressed up w/the phony and fraudulent energy of a Hollywood Production.

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By Howard, October 22, 2007 at 6:25 am Link to this comment

Yes, and there is another way to look at this lobby, that many here are bent out of shape on.

The “Israel lobby.” A patriotic-named foundation urges, in full-page ads in national newspapers (very expensive — who pays for it?), to influence Congress to withhold support for Israel. Professors from prestigious universities write books, like this one, in which they aver that the United States is in thrall to the “Israel lobby.” This lobby is said to pull the strings of American policy. Its supposed main promoters are AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee) and the so-called “neo-cons,” some of whom are indeed Jewish. They are said to exert an almost magical spell over policy makers, including the leaders of Congress and the President. Some even say that the Iraq war was promoted by this omnipotent “Israel lobby,” that the President was flummoxed into declaring war on Saddam Hussein, not in order to defend the United States or to promote its interests, but in order to further the interests of Israel. Imagine.

But its for sure that the United States is without question Israel’s most important ally. Also, without question, Israel is the staunchest and most reliable friend of the United States. But there are some who believe and vigorously advocate that Israel is a burden to the United States and that, were it not for Israel, peace would prevail in the Middle East.

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By Aretologist, October 22, 2007 at 5:05 am Link to this comment

It’s been over for quite a while so why are some of you still bellyaching and resisting?

Israel won a long time ago - before some of you were born. In 1972 the distinguished Senator William Fulbright chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee declared that “the Israelis control politics in Congress and in the Senate,” and added that the United States was “subservient to Israel.” The only thing that has changed since then is that the U.S. is even more subservient to Israel.

It’s not the Jews who are at fault. It takes the consent of two people to get married. AIPAC is just making sure America’s politicians give the American people what the majority of the people want and need.

Americans a long time made a conscious choice between who they needed the most -  the Arabs or the Jews - on the basis of who “was better for them.”  It wasn’t the helpless persecuted and subjugated Palestinians they have chosen to support and help. Like Jesus would. It is the Jewish people - the Larry Kings, Jerry Seinfields, Spielbergs, Hollywood who Americans have chosen to support.

What did Freud say? That everything people think or do is either to satisfy a need they feel - or to escape from pain.  The Jews, not the Palestinians entertain America - make them laugh and feel good. It’s the Jews who enlighten them, win the Noble Prizes, Oscars and Emmys.

Bush (like everyone else in Washington) knows all this and he knows that nobody can do anything about it and so why should he resist the inevitable? Why lose your job? For the Palestinians? That’s why he invaded Iraq. And that’s why Florida Governor Crist has placed a Jewish mezusah on his door.  In order to get reelected.

If America is in love, married and subservient to the Jews then shouldn’t everyone else in the world be?

To “get along” shouldn’t all of mankind “go along”?

This is why America is going to bomb Iran and Syria (and anyone else who poses a threat to Israel and America) into submission. Misery loves company.

What about the small fires that have ignited recently in South America? Chavez, etc.? These annoyances will eventually be eliminated. Castro will be dead soon.

Money provides ordinary people with more pleasure than ideology, justice, ethics, righteousness.
Money talks BS walks. And if there is one thing the Jews are very good at it is showing mankind how to make lots of money. They are good at making money because you don’t need to be an ethical, honest, decent human being to make a lot of money. In fact most economists know that good decent people have little chance of making a lot of money.

So when is the fat lady from Israel going to come to officially sing to the UN General assembly?

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By Inherit The Wind, October 22, 2007 at 4:36 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Benedict Arnold posts:

That strong and questionably democratic religious state of Israel has continually requested the release of Pollard since his incarceration, a slap in the face to America.  Israel’s disclosure of that intel to the Soviet Union caused the death of undercover operatives, way before Scooter Libby.

You must have some inside info because I NEVER heard anything of the sort and I’m pretty well informed—must be those white-supremacist web sites.  Either that or you have Pollard mixed up with Walker, Ames, and Hansen, all of whom got a LOT of people killed.  Pollard will serve his sentence, as he deserves.  Too bad he’s not Russian or Chinese or Iranian because then he could be traded to get someone back…there’s no American spy in an Israeli prison to trade for.  Sure, extremists want him freed—there’s nuts out there who want Charlie Manson freed too.  Not going to happen.

Your foolish to believe that Sharon the war criminal didn’t want the U.S. to attack Iraq, just like they don’t want “us” to attack Iran.

Typical. I’m foolish to believe documented facts as opposed to nazi and radical arab fantasies.  Sharon may be a war criminal (I don’t disagree with that) but he’s no idiot, was an experienced general,  and fully understood the consequences of an ill-planned Iraqi war.  It’s documented that Sharon WARNED Bush privately.

No sane leader wants a war started close by—or anywhere. I’m sure Israel doesn’t want Iran to have nuclear weapons (who does?) but they don’t want WWIII either.  Besides, (and I KNOW this won’t penetrate your feeble brain) Israel and Iran
are NATURAL ALLIES—but the religious leaders of Iran are too caught up in Spanish Inquisition thinking to ever recognize that—or that old Arab saying “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”.  Neither Israel or Iran is an Arab or Sunni nation—between them lie numerous nations that are both.  And the Arabs and the Persians, and the Sunni and Shi’ia hate each other as much as they hate Jews—maybe more.

As an American taxpayer I don’t want to subsidize Israel anymore, the Iranians offically mourned 9/11, the Israelis danced.

Gee, I remember ARABS dancing and celebrating but only the crack-pot bigots like you ever claimed Israelis danced.  The fact that Israelis celebrating an attack on the US, their main benefactor is so absurd that only a sick anti-semitic moron could buy that. 

Israel does have a right to exist, go there.

Again, George Bush thinking: I think your views are hateful and based on lies, and I see you spreading them and I expose them for what they are—therefore, to YOUR twisted mind, I can’t be American.  I intend to go to Israel some day—to visit.  I hope to go up the Nile, some day, too, and lots of other places

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By Tony Wicher, October 21, 2007 at 8:44 pm Link to this comment

Re #108647 by Non Credo on 10/21 at 4:14 pm
(391 comments total)

“God, I hope you’re right, Tony. But one of the things that M & W document so well is how the unrepresentative Jewish right wing, which presumes to speak for The Jewish People and has disproportionate control over the major Jewish organizations, is able to intimidate and ostracize American Jews who step off the reservation by so much as inviting someone the lobby doesn’t like to speak at a public function.”

NC:

That’s very true. So progressive American Jews and non-Jews must join together and make common cause against this new kind of persecution as they always have against Nazism, racism and anti-Semitism. Together we can break this stranglehold on our national political dialog.

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By Howard, October 21, 2007 at 7:58 pm Link to this comment

The only ones who danced—as we saw on national TV was in the Gaza strip and a few other Arab lands, nearby.

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By PatrickHenry, October 21, 2007 at 6:51 pm Link to this comment

ITW aka windbag

I see it must be your shift to spew your paranoid interpretation of my comments.

I didn’t “parrot” any lies by the nazi’s, I don’t know any.  I do find your adding to and twisting of what I say immature and considering your Israel first viewpoint, expected.

That strong and questionably democratic religious state of Israel has continually requested the release of Pollard since his incarceration, a slap in the face to America.  Israel’s disclosure of that intel to the Soviet Union caused the death of undercover operatives, way before Scooter Libby.

Your foolish to believe that Sharon the war criminal didn’t want the U.S. to attack Iraq, just like they don’t want “us” to attack Iran.  As an American taxpayer I don’t want to subsidize Israel anymore, the Iranians offically mourned 9/11, the Israelis danced.

Israel does have a right to exist, go there.

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By Howard, October 21, 2007 at 4:14 pm Link to this comment

I keep seeing her the phrase: “aggression and provocation by Israel “

Quite false. If there was no instigation by the Pal’s there would be no response.  Been that way since 1948, when they refused to have the state that was drawn up for them at that time. (And on later occassions !)Apparently they would rather have no state at all, than have one with Israel close by.

Of course, one could say Israel is ganging up on its neighbors, again.  All 20 of the surrounding Arab countries.  None of which, btw, have offered to help resettle them socially or economically. They prefer to have them stay in camps so they can have something to rail about.  Witness their being kicked out of Irag as a group….and their fight with the Lebanese army.

If they would only realize that Israel would and could do more for them than they realize. But any sane person would expect them to recognize Israel, offer a serious peace with security for both, and get the hate- filled textbooks out of the grade schools, and curtail the sucide bombers intent on entering heaven.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 21, 2007 at 2:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

ITW,

You whole post was a personal attack on my message, discredit the messanger and you discredit the message - Jewish media 101.  Lilbitch and yourself share the same skills of insinuation, namecalling and outright lying which is prevalent in the controlled media today.

Benedict Arnold was a effective general in the Revolutionary war, however, his loyalties were divided between two nations (remind you of any people or lobby), sort of like Jonathan Pollard.

No, BendictArnold, you can’t weasel out of your own words. You parroted the lies the Nazis used about 1000 years of Jewish deceit and money games.

You also can’t escape your lie that all the rich Jews escaped the Nazis and set up a “mafia” in the USA.

I’m not name-calling: I’m saying what you are doing and what that means: You are parroting Nazi lies and using them to slander ALL Jews—that is what nazis and bigots do. It is NOT honest debate.

My loyalties are undivided: I am American, first, last, always.  But I KNOW that is in in America’s best interest to have a strong, Democratic Israel as an ally in the Middle East.  You are simply totally and completely wrong to believe destroying Israel is good for America.  And you use that belief to justify your nazi bigotry.

You defend Benedict Arnold. I don’t. He betrayed his nation. So did Jonathan Pollard.  So did Robert Hansen. So did the Walkers (funny—Hansen and the Walkers are NOT Jewish—do you THEREFORE think they aren’t traitors???)  All deserve their punishment.  So what if they were “good at their jobs” first? Hansen was EXCEPTIONALLY good at his job. He STILL betrayed his nation.  Pollard can rot for all I care. So can Hansen and the Walkers.

You are no different than George W. Bush, who thinks ANYONE who disagrees with his fascist idiocy is a traitor.  You think anyone who defends Israel’s right to exist must THEREFORE be a traitor to the US.  This is false and a lie.  I know what you base it on—the absurd idea that Israel WANTED us to attack Iraq. They didn’t. Sharon told Bush not to do it, that it would be a quagmire.  So…if it’s a LIE that Israel wanted us to attack Iraq (and it is) then the WHOLE house of cards of how that’s key to Israel’s interests running contrary to the US’s falls apart, as it should.

I stand by EVERYTHING I say about you—you parrot nazi lies, and NOBODY would do that and stand by them unless they believed in nazism.

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By Paolo, October 21, 2007 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment

Lilmamzer writes:

“Paleo-isolationism such as yours is a dead-end idea and will never work in today’s inter-connected world.”

“Isolationism” is a buzz-word meant to confuse the real issue. Advocates of non-intervention do not favor “isolation” from the rest of the world; quite the opposite!

Non-interventionists are all for peaceful trade relations with all countries. We’re just against taking sides in other countries’ conflicts. This is especially true when both sides in a conflict have plausible arguments, as is the case with Israel and the Palestinians. Intervention just exacerbates the problems.

This is especially true when we have a President who doesn’t understand the most basic concepts of Middle Eastern culture, such as the difference between a Sunni and a Shi’ite (“I thought we were fighting Muslims,” he is alleged to have said). 

“Interconnectedness” is just fine by me, so long as it takes the form of friendly, open relationships and commerce with all nations, entangling alliances with none (to paraphrase the Founders).

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By Tony Wicher, October 21, 2007 at 12:31 pm Link to this comment

Ask Senator Clinton why she voted for Kyl-Lieberman, an amendment that could be used as support for attacking Iran.

Please watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0icVblxh2dI

These is a great video posted on the Obama campaign site. It asks very good questions of Hillary Clinton in a fair way. I would love to see Senator Obama himself asking these questions. That is his best chance now to distinguish himself sharply from Clinton. This video does not demonize Clinton from partisan motives, as some in the Obama campaign have done, even echoing absurd conspiracy theories concocted by the right wing. I must say that I am not completely anti-Hillary (I voted for Bill twice) and if she would put distance between herself and the PNAC and AIPAC, I would not have trouble voting for her on other grounds. As long as she does not do so, however, Obama should keep hitting this point over and over.

I think the reasons why Clinton voted for the Iraq resolution in 2002 and for Kyl-Lieberman this year are the same. She, like her husband, is a total political animal and that means that principle often takes a back seat to election strategy. Her base is New York and Jewish support is especially important to her. Many prominent Jews from “the Israel Lobby” -AIPAC, the ADL, etc. - advised her to support it, and that outweighed anger from anti-war Democrats in her political calculations. Biden and Dodd, who voted against Kyl-Lieberman, evidently calculated otherwise. I hope that they are right. It is Senator Obama, however, who can best use this issue to strip away anti-war Democrats from Clinton to win the Democratic nomination. Even if he does not succeed in winning, it will still be a great service to the country if he can force her to move away from the Israel Lobby politically. But he will have to take the gloves off; he will have to say what this interviewer says, to talk openly about the influence of “the Israel Lobby”, its connections with PNAC and its influence on the Clinton campaign. Believe me, that will get headlines. The question is whether Senator Obama can handle the resulting uproar in a way that helps him by showing him to be a man who puts principle above politics and one who will take courageous stands and endure heavy political fire for what he thinks are the best interests of the country.

To PatrickHenry I would like to say that it cannot be assumed that a majority of Jewish Americans support the Israel lobby. The majority of Jewish Americans are Democrats who think of themselves and want to be thought of as American citizens, not foreign nationals or dual nationals. They do sympathize with Jews in Israel, but they do not identify with the policies of the Israeli government and resent more every day attempts to force them to conform to the Israeli government line. Progressive Jewish organizations such as the Tikkun Community and many more are speaking up loudly, and if Senator Obama also speaks up on this issue and does it with the right political touch, he will find a surprising amount of progressive Jewish support.

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By Tony Wicher, October 21, 2007 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment

Ask Senator Clinton why she voted for Kyl-Lieberman, an amendment that could be used as support for attacking Iran.

Please watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0icVblxh2dI

These is a great video posted on the Obama campaign site. It asks very good questions of Hillary Clinton in a fair way. I would love to see Senator Obama himself asking these questions. That is his best chance now to distinguish himself sharply from Clinton. This video does not demonize Clinton from partisan motives, as some in the Obama campaign have done, even echoing absurd conspiracy theories concocted by the right wing. I must say that I am not completely anti-Hillary (I voted for Bill twice) and if she would put distance between herself and the PNAC and AIPAC, I would not have trouble voting for her on other grounds. As long as she does not do so, however, Obama should keep hitting this point over and over.

I think the reasons why Clinton voted for the Iraq resolution in 2002 and for Kyl-Lieberman this year are the same. She, like her husband, is a total political animal and that means that principle often takes a back seat to election strategy. Her base is New York and Jewish support is especially important to her. Many prominent Jews from “the Israel Lobby” -AIPAC, the ADL, etc. - advised her to support it, and that outweighed anger from anti-war Democrats in her political calculations. Biden and Dodd, who voted against Kyl-Lieberman, evidently calculated otherwise. I hope that they are right. It is Senator Obama, however, who can best use this issue to strip away anti-war Democrats from Clinton to win the Democratic nomination. Even if he does not succeed in winning, it will still be a great service to the country if he can force her to move away from the Israel Lobby politically. But he will have to take the gloves off; he will have to say what this interviewer says, to talk openly about the influence of “the Jewish Lobby”, its connections with PNAC and its influence on the Clinton campaign. Believe me, that will get headlines. The question is whether Senator Obama can handle the resulting uproar in a way that helps him by showing him to be a man who puts principle above politics and one who will take courageous stands and endure heavy political fire for what he thinks are the best interests of the country.

To PatrickHenry I would like to say that it cannot be assumed that a majority of Jewish Americans support the Israel lobby. The majority of Jewish Americans are Democrats who think of themselves and want to be thought of as American citizens, not foreign nationals or dual nationals. They do sympathize with Jews in Israel, but they do not identify with the policies of the Israeli government and resent more every day attempts to force them to conform to the Israeli government line. Progressive Jewish organizations such as the Tikkun Community and many more are speaking up loudly, and if Senator Obama also speaks up on this issue and does it with the right political touch, he will find a surprising amount of progressive Jewish support.

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By PatrickHenry, October 21, 2007 at 10:44 am Link to this comment

Lilmamzer, ITW, Howard and Lefty.  4 out of 4 zio-stooges isn’t bad, sort of like sport hunting.

Collectively your posts lack any truthful merit as they infer Israel first America second and paint anyone with a dissenting view as a nazi.

Lilmamzer - lilbitch,

As someone who could care less about your bigoted rhetoric and misguided accusations of being a nazi, “capping” jews, and downing evidence presented as “Ayran”.  (By the way, http://www.khazaria.com/ is a jewish history site owned and operated by jews) It just proves your point about fucking the arabs and palistinians is both figurative and literal in meaning, as the palestinians living in that region are more “Israeli” than those in the Government, terrorists all.

ITW,

You whole post was a personal attack on my message, discredit the messanger and you discredit the message - Jewish media 101.  Lilbitch and yourself share the same skills of insinuation, namecalling and outright lying which is prevalent in the controlled media today.

Benedict Arnold was a effective general in the Revolutionary war, however, his loyalties were divided between two nations (remind you of any people or lobby), sort of like Jonathan Pollard.

Howard,

New to http://www.giyus.org/ ?  while you do have some good points they clearly omit any aggression or provocative action by Israel.

Lefty, 

Lets cut off all monetary aid to everyone, send them bags of flour.  I’m sure our congress would accept campaign contribtions from AIPAC in flour, which could then be resold.

I see a parallel to what is happening in America today to the rise of the nazi’s in WWII, have a reichstag event (PNAC & 9/11) take away personal freedoms in the name of security (canned Patriot Act) and demonize a particular people (Islamo-fascists) a media buzzword even the old WWII vets can put together.  All the while the Israeli lobby and a majority of jewish americans are promoting this action against the majority of non jewish Americans.

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By lilmamzer, October 21, 2007 at 8:30 am Link to this comment

#108605 by Paolo on 10/21 at 7:16 am
(133 comments total)

The USA has no dog in this fight.

In your opinion.

Most Americans disagree. They support Israel for all the right reasons - shared moral, political, and cultural values, shared security needs and concerns, mutually-beneficial trade…..

Paleo-isolationism such as yours is a dead-end idea and will never work in today’s inter-connected world.

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By Paolo, October 21, 2007 at 8:16 am Link to this comment

The USA has no dog in this fight.

Having observed the Middle East situation for years, I have to conclude there is plenty of blame to go around, on all sides. Yes, it’s easy to find quotes of radical Muslims praying for the destruction of Israel and death to the Jews and the Americans. Yes, it’s also easy to find similar quotes by Israeli leaders—and many posters have already done so on this website.

The problem is likely not solvable. But again, it’s not America’s problem. I say cut off all foreign aid to Israel, Egypt, and all other countries, withdraw all our troops, and go back to being Americans again—instead of would-be masters of a far-flung empire.

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By lilmamzer, October 21, 2007 at 7:45 am Link to this comment

#108591 by Howard

Maybe Abbas is the man.

He’s not. He’s just playing the Pal Arabs’ “good cop” to Hamas’ Pal Arabs’ “bad cop”.

In reality, they both want to see Israel destroyed. What differs is in the approach, not the goal.

I would see Abbas in prison or hanging by a rope for his complicity in the Munich Olympic murders of those Israeli athletes.

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By lilmamzer, October 21, 2007 at 7:42 am Link to this comment

#108558 by PatrickHenry

What are the pro israel jews on this website going to do to me?  call me names and put words in my mouth.  Fuck’em.

The problem with you (OK, one of the problems with you) is that you make the basest, crudest blanket Jew-hating statements, and then, when called on it, try to back-track by painting yourself as merely “anti-zionist”.

Lame, lame, lame.

Have you checked the Vanity Fair 100 lately?

MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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By Howard, October 21, 2007 at 6:10 am Link to this comment

Well, that’s a contentious issue. It seems to me they just want to be left alone and live in peace. They left Gaza and rockets are sent from there daily into Israel. They left Lebanon and terrorists came over the border and kill 4 soldiers and kidnap 2. Yet to be returned.
  They certainly will return territory if they can find a willing partner or gov’t. Maybe Abbas is the man. Security counts a lot for the Israeli’s so its up to them to decide.
  They have been down this road before.  Hope it works out this time.

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By Conservative Yankee, October 21, 2007 at 6:01 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It is still, has always been impossible to have a rational discussion about Israel and her foreign and domestic policies.

For this reason Jews must do as I’m going to do now, and be silent, or become rabid defenders of everything Israeli.

I hate that our society still harbors the myth that Jews have some kind-of “math gene” that makes them klutzes in sports, but able in the boardrooms and banks.

Off the subject?  Well maybe, but it is impossible in this forum for me to engage in useful criticism, where I have doubts, if it puts me on the side of folks who, (although they deny it) are in fact prejudiced against Jews. (I have deliberately avoided saying “anti Semite” because some of these folks defend Arabs who, for the uninitiated, are also Semites…Hagar’s offspring)  Get it? this is a family argument… going on for thousands of years Hagar vs Sarah, Isaac vs Ishmael, the Arab race vs the Jewish people.

The land was a dividing point from the get-go. Abraham promised it to Ishmael The older, and (assumedly only) son, then surprise surprise Abraham had a son with his real wife at 75 years of age, and so he took all back from Ishmael, gave it to Isaac, and exiled Ishmael to the desert, where his people remain to this day. I’d be pissed too!

BUT that is the way of the world… someday maybe we’ll get passed all the hate and grief someday it is my fervent hope that Arab and Jew can live in peace.

I’m not alone here Moshe Dyan, 1915 - 1981 the last Israeli official who could walk alone in Palestine harbored the same hope.

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By Howard, October 21, 2007 at 4:30 am Link to this comment

Jeez, can Isarael be that bad? Such hatred here thrown at it.  Not a perfect country by any means, but let’s see what they fear…let’s not hold them to a double standard.
——————

Bahr Ahmad Bahr Gaza Palestine, As acting Palestinian Legislative Council Speaker (appointed by the elected Pslestinian government) please note my speech on Palestinian TV from April 13, 2007: “Oh Allah, vanquish the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, vanquish the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them all, down to the very last one”

=============
or this:

Dr. Ismail Radwan Gaza Palestine:  “Yes, these terrible bigots seek to spread hatred instead of peace. I hope you have seen me on official Palesitian TV on March 30,2007 when I said:. “The Hour – the Islamic Resurrection and End of Time– is literally dependent on the killing of Jews by Muslims. The remaining Jews will unsuccessfully attempt to hide, as the rocks and trees will expose them, calling out “there is a Jew behind me, kill him!”  “Palestine… will be liberated through the rifle” ”

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By weather, October 21, 2007 at 4:17 am Link to this comment

What Israel hates most.

Getting caught in the headlights of their very own remarkable arrogance and brazen deceit and finding absolutely no one to manipulate blame on.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 20, 2007 at 9:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

BenedictArnold (because it’s an insult to Patrick Henry to allow an anti-American nazi like you to use his name—use the traitor’s—it suits you better).

Alot of “old money” jews escaped the holocaust and immigrated to America where with their close knit business practices aquired over millennia (insider trading) and tendency to do business with and give preferential treatment to other jews in contracts, hiring and social justice, have ensured their success.  Control of the media is important as it defines “the sale”.

Why did you leave out the part you WANTED to say? “Too bad Hitler didn’t catch ‘em before they left!”
and “I wish Hitler had finished the job.”  It’s implicit in EVERY piece of garbage you post.

You spout all the old nazi propaganda that is CONTRADICTE, not supported, by historical fact.  That states to the world EXACTLY what you are.  Perhaps RudolphHess would be a better handle for you.

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By PatrickHenry, October 20, 2007 at 8:45 pm Link to this comment

What I have done and will continue to do is campaign against zionist scum and vote against any politicians who support the AIPAC lobby or any lobby which uses ethnic, religious or racial preference to advance their collective aim, especially with my tax dollars.

What are the pro israel jews on this website going to do to me?  call me names and put words in my mouth.  Fuck’em.

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By lilmamzer, October 20, 2007 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment

#108537 by PatrickHenry on 10/20 at 5:27 pm
(226 comments total)


Yeah, half of the Vanity Fair 100.

That’s what hard work and talent will do for ya. You sound bitter and jealous. Don’t have what it takes, do you? Too fucking bad.

What are you going to do about it? Go out and cap some Jews to reduce those numbers? What? What?

MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

We like it, dude, we like it.

You sound like such a LOSER.
——————————————-


http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html

Yes, a favorite link from the David Duke and associated KKK and white suprematist websites.

Again, you are a loser. What are you gonna do about it?

NOTHIN’, that’s what.
—————————————

Just another zionist shill attempt to stifle, confuse and mock critical debate.

Stifle debate? That’s what you ALWAYS say when someone dares even reply to the garbage you write.

Well, as long as America is still a free country, your bigoted slurs will never go unanswered.

Get used to it.

Yes, the Vanity Fair 100.

We like it, we like it!

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By Robert, October 20, 2007 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment

A LETTER TO AIPAC


Mr. Howard Kohr
Executive Director
American Israel Public Affairs Committee
440 First Street, NW; Suite 600
Washington, D.C.

Dear Mr. Kohr:

During my nineteen years serving in elected office, including the past five years as a Member of Congress, never has my name and reputation been maligned or smeared as it was last week by a representative of AIPAC. Last Friday, during a call with my chief of staff, an AIPAC representative from Minnesota who has frequently lobbied me on behalf of your organization stated, “on behalf of herself, the Jewish community, AIPAC, and the voters of the Fourth District, Congresswoman McCollum’s support for terrorists will not be tolerated.” Ironically, this individual, who does not even live in my congressional district, feels free to speak for my constituents.

This response may have been the result of extreme emotion or irrational passion, but regardless, it is a hateful attack that is vile and offensive to me and the families I represent. I call on AIPAC to immediately condemn this un-American attack and disavow any attempt to use this type of threat and intimidation to stifle legitimate policy differences. I will not stand to be labeled or threatened in a manner that questions my patriotism or my oath of office.

Last week, I did vote against H.R. 4681 during mark-up of the bill in the House International Relations Committee. As a Member of Congress sworn to uphold the Constitution, and ensure the security of the US and represent the values and beliefs of the constituents who I serve, it was my view that H.R. 4681 goes beyond the State Department’s current policies toward Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and potentially undermines the US position vis-à-vis the coordinated international pressure on Hamas. The language contained in S. 2237 accurately reflects my position.

Keeping diplomatic pressure on Hamas to renounce terrorism, recognize the State of Israel, dismantle terrorist infrastructure, and honor past agreements and treaty obligations, while preventing a humanitarian crisis among the Palestinian people, are all policy goals already strongly supported by myself, the Bush administration, Congress and the American people. But, if the purpose was to send another strong message to Hamas and the Palestinian people, as Congress already has sent with the passage of S. Con., then I disagree with the vehicle for that message. In my opinion, Congress should be articulating clear support for the Secretary of State’s present course of action; not creating a new law which likely diminishes the diplomatic tools needed to advance US policy goals with regard to the Palestinian people, potentially cuts US funding to the United Nations, and largely restates current law while creating on-going and burdensome unfunded reporting requirements.

As you well know, in Congress we do not shy away from condemning the vile words of despots and dictators who use anti-Semitism as a weapon to incite hatred, fear and violence. AIPAC should not have a lower standard for persons affiliated and representing its organization when they label a Member of Congress who thinks for herself and always puts the interest of our nation and people first a supporter of terrorists.

You and your colleagues at AIPAC have the right to disagree with my position on any piece of legislation, but for an AIPAC representative to say that I would ever vote to support Middle East terrorists over the interests of my country will never be tolerated by me or the families I serve. This incident rises to a level in which a formal, written apology is required.

Mr. Kohr, I am a supporter of a strong US–Israeli relationship and my voting record speaks for itself. This will not change. But until I receive a formal, written apology from your organization I must inform you that AIPAC representatives are not welcome in my offices or for meetings with my staff.

Betty McCollum
Member of Congress

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19063

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By Robert, October 20, 2007 at 7:02 pm Link to this comment

REP WATSON - ISRAEL LOBBY AND THE U.S. FOREIGN POLICY


“Congressional Representative Diane Watson @ a Town Hall on Iraq and Blackwater held on Oct 14, 2007 in LA. Panel was California Assembly Majority Leader Karen Bass, Paul Eaton, a retired U.S. Army general who was in charge of training the Iraqi military from 2003 to 2004 and Rep. Watson (CA-33).

Rep. Watson was presented with a copy of the book “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy ” authored by Mearsheimer and Walt. In this clip, question raised to Rep. Watson & General Eaton was about the influence pro-Israel lobbyist have on American foreign policy.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHculIAacPQ

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By PatrickHenry, October 20, 2007 at 6:27 pm Link to this comment

#108524 by lilmamzer on 10/20 at 3:15 pm
(535 comments total)

#108464 by PatrickHenry on 10/20 at 7:04 am
(225 comments total)

lilmamzer,

Obviously, by your arrogant response you are of a like mind of the sayanim which infect government, media and financial services in this country.

“You make an assumption that I am a Jew, simply because I like to point out your hatred of them.
I would do the same if you spoke of any other minority with the same contempt”.

If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duct…..
You seem to have some real “issues with arabs as indicated by your maligned posts.
_____________________________________________________

Not bad for 2% of the population, sort of a privleged minority.

“Every Jew I’ve known who has done well in this country did so because of talent and hard work. Pretty American values as far as I’m concerned”.

Yeah, half of the Vanity Fair 100.

Alot of “old money” jews escaped the holocaust and immigrated to America where with their close knit business practices aquired over millennia (insider trading) and tendency to do business with and give preferential treatment to other jews in contracts, hiring and social justice, have ensured their success.  Control of the media is important as it defines “the sale”. 
_____________________________________________________

As for history, the Palestinians who now reside in what is now Israel have more Hebrew (semite?) DNA than those Khazars who sit in that government whose ancestors decided to become jews around 850 AD.

“Hebrew DNA? What kind of genetics credentials do you have to make such an asinine statement like that?”

History.

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html
_____________________________________________________

Lilmamzer, just be sure to be on point next time Israel invades Lebanon.

“No such luck for you. I’ve done my tours of duty and now the World Zionist Conspiracy has posted me here in Washington, DC, to commandeer the levers of power of this once-great nation for the benefit of JEWS”.

“MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA”

Just another zionist shill attempt to stifle, confuse and mock critical debate.
_____________________________________________________

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By Howard, October 20, 2007 at 6:12 pm Link to this comment

LILMAMZER says it well !  And I knows a few Jewish guys and they do have lots of talent and do work hard ! Know some Italians, and Polish people, also, and all good Americans and many are older veterans.
  They didn’t fight in WWII to see the animosity and conspiracy nonsense that goes on here…. against any group.
  BTW, lobbies are the American way business is done in congress, in this day and age.  Get used to it.
  I’m sure Apac, or Aipac, would love to have 10% of the influence that some of you chaps say they do.
Don’t believe everything you read.  Especially on the Islamic web pages.

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By lilmamzer, October 20, 2007 at 4:15 pm Link to this comment

#108464 by PatrickHenry on 10/20 at 7:04 am
(225 comments total)

lilmamzer,

Obviously, by your arrogant response you are of a like mind of the sayanim which infect government, media and financial services in this country.

You make an assumption that I am a Jew, simply because I like to point out your hatred of them.
I would do the same if you spoke of any other minority with the same contempt.
———————————

Not bad for 2% of the population, sort of a privleged minority.

Every Jew I’ve known who has done well in this country did so because of talent and hard work. Pretty American values as far as I’m concerned.
———————————

As for history, the Palestinians who now reside in what is now Israel have more Hebrew (semite?) DNA than those Khazars who sit in that government whos ancestors decided to become jews around 850 AD.

Hebrew DNA? What kind of genetics credentials do you have to make such an asinine statement like that?
———————————-

Lilmamzer, just be sure to be on point next time Israel invades Lebanon.

No such luck for you. I’ve done my tours of duty and now the World Zionist Conspiracy has posted me here in Washington, DC, to commandeer the levers of power of this once-great nation for the benefit of JEWS.

MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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By lilmamzer, October 20, 2007 at 4:07 pm Link to this comment

#108496 by Aretologist on 10/20 at 9:59 am
(2 comments total)

Or has AIPAC and the American Jewish Congress and all the other Jewish groups (all working together with the same goal in mind, i.e.,keeping control America and through America eventually the entire world) altogether eliminated seeing reality honestly and having the courage to speak out about it as a prerequisite requirement for succeeding in business or politics in America?

Check under your bed, check your closet, there could be a JEW in there.

MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Boogie-Jews controlling the WORLD!!!!!

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By lilmamzer, October 20, 2007 at 4:00 pm Link to this comment

#108451 by Non Credo

#108440 by lilmamzer
And here we see how the morbid obsession of Jewish fanatics like Lilmamzer creates the very antipathy with which they are sure every non-Jew is somehow born infected.

Can’t you just say it without torturing the English language: that you believe that Jews are responsible for the antisemitic persecution they suffer at the hands of bigots and haters. The classic “blame the victim” game. Only poorly expressed.
——————————

What a sad circle. I see no way out. People like this will only feel “secure” when they can control or silence everyone else, an ambition in the pursuit of which the whole world is put to flame.

Yes, the classic “Jews control the world” and “Jews are the cause of the wars in the world” libels. Textbook.
——————————

I see no way out.

For you there is no way out. So pick your poison, because Jews aren’t going anywhere, ever. They are here to stay, and prosper, and lead joyous and fulfilling lives in spite of warmongering haters such as yourself.

It’s a beautiful, sunny day and I’m going to make the absolute most of it. Ciao,

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By Robert, October 20, 2007 at 3:22 pm Link to this comment

AIPAC AND ZIONISTS OCCUPY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT & CONTROL THE AMERICAN POLITICIANS:

Take a look at this short video and ENJOY:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbkNHZt4r-k&NR=1

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By Aretologist, October 20, 2007 at 10:59 am Link to this comment

I do not believe that many of you realize that AIPAC operates a covert section within its “research” department that monitors what it calls “anti-Israel (anti-Jewish) activity.”

According to Ex- Congressman Paul Findley in his book “Deliberate Deceptions”, in 1974 AIPAC joined with the American Jewish Committee and other Jewish groups to form what they called “truth squads” in order to counter anti-Israeli propaganda. According to Findley, the truth squads turned into a kind of Jewish thought police. AIPAC’s “investigators” were Jewish college students, and others with sources with access to U.S. intelligence agencies and they were used to find and ferret out critics of Israel.

I personally believe that there are many other Jewish groups such as the Wiesenthal Center, the ADL, and even government organizations who do the same kind of “monitoring” for the Jews in America.

AIPAC’s “research” section must have grown since 1974. How many people are there out there today monitoring us?  And how many AIPAC “researchers” (“official or unofficial”) are on duty here at Truthdig?

Does anyone at the NY Times, Washington Post or any others in the mass media care about all of this Jewish monitoring of American citizens?

Is AIPAC an Israeli or an American organization? Or is there in really difference between Israel and America? Are people like Rice and Bush really who they portend to be or are they just smoke screens?

Obviously it must be perfectly legal for AIPAC and the other Jewish groups in America to monitor and scrutinize the American people to find out what they are saying about them.  But it is morally and ethically right? And shouldn’t they play fair and tell us and warn us all about what they are doing behind our backs? Warn us of all of their activities like our other “official government has to?

Is all this one of the reasons that Florida Governor Charlie Crist, a Methodist placed a Jewish mezusah on his office door?  To let the “thought police” and “truth squads” know who he is and how he feels and sees the world?
In explaining why he put the mezusah on his office door, Governor Crist said: “All I’m doing is attempting to be respectful and grateful.” Why? Grateful to the AIPAC lobby in Florida for helping him to be elected and respectful of them because his election would not have occurred if the Jewish lobby had not backed and endorsed him?

Governor Crist’s “thankfulness” act is very revealing - maybe too revealing. For sure AIPAC will put a stop to this kind of thing if any other tail wagging governor rabidly followed suit and indvertently made the obvious too obvious.  In 1924, the British Ambassador in Egypt explained how England governed Egypt: “We don’t govern the Egyptian people -  we govern the governors of Egypt.”

Aren’t there any other Americans besides people like Messrs. Mearsheimer, Walt, Finkelstein, Chomsky -  brave enough to speak out (like Paul Findley did) and try to put a stop to all of this governance of the America’s governors and politicians by the Jews? Or is Israel and America just one nation undivided under God? If America and Israel are one and the same then why not make it official instead of going on with all of this nonsense.

I realize no politicians can complain about AIPAC but can’t someone like Orphey Winfrey or Bill Gates - who have lots and lots of money and don’t have to worry about being reelected or losing their jobs - and have the means to speak out - can’t they speak out about it just a little?

Or has AIPAC and the American Jewish Congress and all the other Jewish groups (all working together with the same goal in mind, i.e.,keeping control America and through America eventually the entire world) altogether eliminated seeing reality honestly and having the courage to speak out about it as a prerequisite requirement for succeeding in business or politics in America?

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By PatrickHenry, October 20, 2007 at 8:04 am Link to this comment

lilmamzer,

Obviously, by your arrogant response you are of a like mind of the sayanim which infect government,  media and financial services in this country.

Not bad for 2% of the population, sort of a privleged minority.

During my 2 tours in the Marines many years ago, I seldom ran into any Jews either in the officer corps or otherwise.  I guess they were all at the Marva’s, or in college with Bush and Cheney, with deferments.

As for history, the Palestinians who now reside in what is now Israel have more Hebrew (semite?) DNA than those Khazars who sit in that government whos ancestors decided to become jews around 850 AD.

As I have said in my first post to this website, I don’t want my tax dollars supporting either side of this dispute, nor do I want want this minority race/religion dictating our nations foreign policy or obtaining government contracts.  Their lobbies must register as serving a foreign government which they currently do not.

Our tax money can be better spent here at home supporting health care for our young than giving away billions in foreign aid to those who obviously don’t need it.

Lilmamzer, just be sure to be on point next time Israel invades Lebanon.

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By Billy Bob, October 20, 2007 at 7:33 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Until the pro-Israeli lobby AND Israel offer intelligent and truthful reasons for their unwarranted and literally murderous attack on the USS Liberty in June, 1967, let Israel go its own way and deal with the consequences of a policy of intransigence.

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By Myronh, October 20, 2007 at 7:01 am Link to this comment

It is obvious the Israel Lobby has too much influence in US politics. Our citizens of Jewish heritage have way too much influence in US politics, considering they represent less than 2 percent of the US population. I was raised by a first generation American-Norwegian who was very sympathetic to the plight of the Jews during and immediately after WWII. He couldn’t understand why many of our rural/farmer neighbors harbored such ill feelings for the Jews.

I have been to Israel twice in the past 12-years, both times on business working in the Industrial and Electrical Utility business. When I started my first trip I was 60-years old and had always had a high regard for the Jews regardless where they lived. I soon changed my opinion. Rather than help resolve a problem, I found that the Jewish Management people preferred to argue and shout amongst themselves. When I complained about the time being wasted in what I considered childish bickering, I was told by the Manager of a large steel fabrication plant that I should understand that this was the Jewish customs/heritage; I felt like telling him their “heritage” explained why the Jews had been chased around the world for the past several thousand years. I had to work with one Engineer who tried every trick possible to get a Plant Manager fired because that Manager had been hired instead of the Engineer’s close friend. I saw the average Arab being treated like dirt; no respect shown by any of the Jews that I worked with. My most recent experience with a Jew came at a very nice vacation hotel in Duluth Minnesota. My Sister-in-law was just starting into the complimentary breakfast line when she was almost knocked over by a 60ish Jewish man who just pushed himself in front of her. He never apologized or excused himself in any manner. His air of arrogance and superiority was enough to make me lose my appetite. My personal experience has led me to believe I understand why the Jews have been hated and persecuted since biblical times. I have no intention of ever returning to Israel, or endorsing a US politician that backs blind-servitude to Israel.

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By Jew, October 20, 2007 at 6:05 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

108370 by PatrickHenry on 10/19 at 5:20 pm

“Oh yeah, I could give a shit about what you or your little zionist jew friends think of me.”

“They sure weren’t next to me in foxholes fighting for this country… America.”

Maybe they were?  But didn’t identify themselves because as you know in the “foxholes” (hummm foxholes) one needs to depend on the guy next to you.  Maybe if it was a “jew” out there hung up in the wire you wouldn’t work quite as hard on a rescue?

Nope… if I wrer fighting next to you, I’d keep my ethnic and reglious identity to myself!

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By weather, October 20, 2007 at 5:55 am Link to this comment

antisemitism: A cloaking device of deflection that says please don’t make me confront the truth about myself, for its me who truly hates what you say and I don’t want to hear it or confront it, therefore its easier to deny and deflect it.

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By lilmamzer, October 20, 2007 at 5:24 am Link to this comment

#108415 by Non Credo

I long for my innocence. I remember as a boy and a young man being not only repulsed but also totally mystified by anti-Semitism. I was simply incapable of any such impulse. I was so superior and good.

But as I have gotten to know too many of the Lilmamzers of this world, and learned how these bullying fanatics are misguiding US foreign policy, I am no longer mystified by anti-Semitism. I wish I were.

It was easier to be that nice, innocent person. I am still repulsed by anti-Semitism, but I simply cannot any more find it incomprehensible. I now see anti-Semitism as a deadly sin - like greed, lust, or vanity - which one guards against, while finding the temptation understandable.

See, PatrickHenry, this is the kind of post I come here to read for my amusement and morbid curiosity.

It’s like a display of addle-brained and muddy thinking mixed with the toxicity of hatred.

The only bonafides the poster establishes is that his bigotry runs deep and has had an Orwellian effect on his understanding of moral absolutes.

See how he flirts with outing himself as an antisemite, but can’t quite come right out and say that’s what he is now. It’s all there in the last paragraph. Yep, antisemitism is an evil, but dammit, those Jews deserve it.

What a turd.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 20, 2007 at 4:47 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It was easier to be that nice, innocent person. I am still repulsed by anti-Semitism, but I simply cannot any more find it incomprehensible.

No surprise there. Stereotypes frequently lead people to judge EVERYONE by the actions of a few—or one.

So you roll up your windows when you see a Black of Hispanic person coming?  Do you hide your children when you see ANY Catholic priest? Do you ask any Chinese person where you can get good deals on cheap PCs? Assume every Italian is in the mafia?

I’ve NEVER found bigotry to be incomprehensible—it’s always out there waiting to hit you in the head like the sucker-punch that broke my nose at 17.  I KNOW the sonuvabitch hit me—but 35 years later I still have no clue why.

What I find incomprehensible how someone with a brain can defend bigotry—or mistake survival tactics for bigotry.

Or assume because I want to see Israel survive, that I don’t want to see Jewish religious fanatics (like Netanyahu and his ilk) marginalized.

If, somehow, the horrible day comes that the followers of the late Meir Kehane (or his ilk) come to power and wipe out Israeli democracy to create a Jewish Taliban, on that day, and NOT BEFORE, will I turn against Israel as decent Germans (like Marlene Dietrich, Kurt Wiel and Bertholt Brecht) turned against the Nazis and worked to overturn Hitler.

For the model of that society is already there: In the Taliban, in Libya, in Saudi Arabia, in Iran.  The religion is different, but the effect is the same.

But Israel is NOT there yet, and hopefully, never will be.

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By lilmamzer, October 19, 2007 at 8:58 pm Link to this comment

#108391 by THE MANGEMEISTER

Little Bastard if this website is so pathetic why do you post here?

Because it amuses me.
——————————

It must really piss you off that you and your Zionist ilk are being exposed for what they are.

Umm, no. Not even close.

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By lilmamzer, October 19, 2007 at 8:56 pm Link to this comment

#108370 by PatrickHenry

What a two faced little prick you invariably are.

Such hostility. No wonder you are a bigot. You have to blame someone. No matter, you are a harmless nuisance. Ignorant, too, as I will point out below.
—————————


Call me a chickenshit bigot, while your downing all arabs for real and imagined offenses and anyone else who doesn’t buy your line of shit.

You ARE a chickenshit bigot. I don’t “down all Arabs” - just the ones perpetuating a state of war against Israel.
————————-

If it wasn’t for America constantly bailing Israel out of their wars there wouldn’t be an Israel today, it would have been overrun in 1967.

OK, here is where you expose yourself as an ignorant hater. In the 1967 war, the US was hardly a major supplier of Israel’s defense forces. France was the main supplier of the IDF in those days. Israel did have WWII-era surplus Sherman tanks and some White M3 halftracks, but these were purchased mainly off the surplus market from third-party vendors. Infantry troops carried FN-FAL and Uzi rifles and submachineguns, and the air force flew French Mirage, Mystere, and Vautour jets. Israel took care of business herself. The Arabs lost territory in their war of aggression and it serves them right. Fuck them and fuck you.
———————————

Oh yeah, I could give a shit about what you or your little zionist jew friends think of me.

Whatever. It’s enough to identify the bigots out there and leave it at that. So fuck you.
———————————

They sure weren’t next to me in foxholes fighting for this country… America.

Right, no Jews would have shared your foxhole because in your bigoted rage you would have shot them in the back. No, the many tens of thousands of American Jews who fought and died for the US in WWII did so away from you, and for good reason. Who needs to get fragged by an asshole like you? So fuck you again.

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By THE MANGEMEISTER, October 19, 2007 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment

Little Bastard if this website is so pathetic why do you post here?It must really piss you off that you and your Zionist ilk are being exposed for what they are.

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By PatrickHenry, October 19, 2007 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

lilmamzer,

What a two faced little prick you invariably are.

Call me a chickenshit bigot, while your downing all arabs for real and imagined offenses and anyone else who doesn’t buy your line of shit.

If it wasn’t for America constantly bailing Israel out of their wars there wouldn’t be an Israel today, it would have been overrun in 1967.

Oh yeah, I could give a shit about what you or your little zionist jew friends think of me. 

They sure weren’t next to me in foxholes fighting for this country… America.

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By lilmamzer, October 19, 2007 at 4:53 pm Link to this comment

#108316 by PatrickHenry on 10/19 at 12:53 pm
(220 comments total)

lilmamzer,

I see by your words that you personify the Israeli position on occupation.

By your rhetoric, it is easy to see why the world opinion regarding jews and Israel is often contrary to America’s, where the zionists have burrowed in like ticks on a dog.

By the way F.U. too.

Arabs attacked in 1967 (again, again….) with the publicly stated intention of destroying a sovereign nation. They fucking LOST.

Too fucking bad.

Don’t like losing territory? Don’t start a fucking war.

It wasn’t enough for these asshole Arabs to steal the possessions and exile 800,000 Jews - they had to then make decades of war against these refugees and their descendants in Israel in a genocidal war. Fuck them then, fuck them now, and fuck them in the future if they persist in trying to wipe out a sovereign nation.

Oh, and FUCK YOU. Jews don’t give a rat’s ass what you think or what you do. Jews are different now than they were in the early 20th century.

Jews now fight back and defend themselves from ASSHOLES like you.

And you know what? You are a chickenshit bigot. You don’t have the balls to go to Israel and try and kill any Jews yourself. Just post idiotic statements on this pathetic website.

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By PatrickHenry, October 19, 2007 at 1:53 pm Link to this comment

lilmamzer,

I see by your words that you personify the Israeli position on occupation.

By your rhetoric, it is easy to see why the world opinion regarding jews and Israel is often contrary to America’s, where the zionists have burrowed in like ticks on a dog.

By the way F.U. too.

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By lilmamzer, October 19, 2007 at 9:15 am Link to this comment

Here’s how I look at it:

Fuck the Palestinian Arabs, and fuck the rest of the Arabs too, until they acknowledge their historical responsibility to compensate the 800,000 Jews who were dispossessed and kicked out of their homes when Israel declared her independence in 1948. Most of those Jews now live free and independent lives, no longer dhimmis, in their own sovereign homeland.

Anything less is not worth addressing any longer.

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By Howard, October 18, 2007 at 6:58 pm Link to this comment

Fairy Tales, indeed !

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By Conservative Yankee, October 18, 2007 at 2:48 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Howard

“Israel has never bothered Iran. Or threatened Iran Doesn’t even border on their country. Why is Iran threatening Israel and the US?  Let’s talk about that plot. For a change. How about it?”

Lets talk about 1951 when Iranian Prime Minister Mossadegh nationalized the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. then in 1953 The US sponsored the overthrow of Iran’s prime minster.

the Iranian people had risen in opposition against Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran, and forced him into exile in South Africa.

In 1944, the exiled Shah of Iran died in South Africa. His 22-year-old son returned to Iran with the backing of the occupying allied powers, and once again the reign of the Pahlavi regime resumed. The Shah depended upon the support of the United States to keep him in power, and after the war, American influence in Iran grew. American’s military presence increased as the Cold War heated up. Iran was no longer viewed as a corridor to the Soviet Union, but as important bunker against the spread of communism. The regime of the new Shah proved to be no less corrupt than that of his father.

In 1953, growing opposition to the Shah culminated with the opposition leader, Mohammed Mossadegh, who had risen to the position of Prime Minister of Iran in 1951. Mossadegh was openly hostile to the Shah. The United States, fearing the growing power of the Prime Minister, used the CIA to stage mass rallies against Mossadegh and toppled him from office. The involvement of the Americans in Iranian politics was code named ‘Operation Ajax’. In 1964, the Iranian legislative assembly granted American soldiers and their families stationed in Iran, the same immunity to prosecution which was normally only enjoyed by diplomats. The Iranian people were outraged that American soldiers were able to break their laws without fear. One of the most outspoken critics of this law was the Shiite Muslim Leader, Ayatollah Rhuollah Khomeini. He accused those of agreeing to this, including the Shah himself, as being traitors to Iran. The Shah could not risk having this powerful religious leader imprisoned. What he could and did risk, was having him deported. Khemeini was exiled to Turkey. On November 4, 1964, Khomeini vowed that he would return one day and even the score with the Shah and the United States. Throughout the 1970’s, the Shah, with the backing of the U.S., remained in power. But there was a growing movement which was getting increasingly violent, against both the United States and the hated Shah. During 1978 and ‘79, there were increasing riots in the cities of Iran against the Shah. The Ayatollah, sensing his time to return was near, was now living in Paris. He issued a proclamation calling for the overthrow of the Shah and the hated Pahlavi regime.

On January 16, 1979, riddled with cancer, the Shah, his wife and family and a small group of supporters, boarded the Royal Iranian Boeing 707 and left Iran. He hoped that he could find refuge in the United States. President Jimmy Carter made it clear that he was not welcome. The Shah was reduced to travelling from country to country. He found temporary homes in Egypt, Morocco, the Bahamas, Panama and Mexico. Ayatollah Khomeini returned and became the leader of Iran. The immediate impact was that the United States lost access to Iranian oil. A $7 billion arms deal that the United States had signed with Iran was cancelled, and on February 14, 1979, the Ayatollah’s revolutionary forces overran the American Embassy in Tehran. The United States announced the withdrawal of all American personnel from Iran.

From Myths to live by.

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By Howard, October 18, 2007 at 1:18 pm Link to this comment

Here we go again.  Blame the Israeli lobby, zionists, Jews, etc for pushing for a war with Iran. What a falsehood. Lordee knows, the world didn’t believe Hitler, why should anyone in the world believe the Iranian leaders when on multiple occasions they’ve sworn to eradicate Israel and the U.S. Of course, those leaders in Iran are not serious. Just a bunch of nice guys.
  Israel has never bothered Iran. Or threatened Iran Doesn’t even border on their country. Why is Iran threatening Israel and the US?  Let’s talk about that plot. For a change. How about it?
  Little boring blaming Israel for all the wars in the 20th century and all illnesses in the world…and all the floods and earthquakes and tidal waves.
    Yeah, let’s talk about the Iranians and their plot.  A leader of the islamo-fascist terror in the world.

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By lilmamzer, October 18, 2007 at 12:37 pm Link to this comment

#108064 by Howard

About 800,000 Jews from Arab countries – from Morocco and Algeria to Iraq and Yemen – fled or were driven out of their home countries, where they had lived for centuries. ........ They were received with open arms, immediately and fully integrated into Israeli society. They now form about 50 per cent of the population of Israel.

Actually, the sons and daughters of these refugees account for more than half the current population of Israel.

Until the Arab and Muslim world acknowlege their responsibility for the mass expulsions of Jews from their countries, and for instigating and prolonging the Palestinian Arab refugee problem, Israel owes them nothing.

I make it a point to mention the 800,000 Jews as often as I can. It only highlights the hypocrisy of the anti-Israel warmongers such as the ones at this site.

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By Howard, October 18, 2007 at 12:12 pm Link to this comment

Nobody “stole” any lands. A myth if there ever was one. Had the Arabs accepted the UN partition plan, there would now have been a state of “Palestine” for the last 58 years. They might have attained a similar level of prosperity, advancement, and development as Israel, which, small though it is, is today in almost every regard one of the world’s most advanced countries.
Not the only refugees. There is dispute about the number of those refugees. Best estimates are that about 650,000 people fled. But those Arabs are not the only refugees of the 1948 war of Israel’s independence. About 800,000 Jews from Arab countries – from Morocco and Algeria to Iraq and Yemen – fled or were driven out of their home countries, where they had lived for centuries. Most of them left with just the clothes on their backs, leaving land, property, businesses, and wealth created over generations. Most fled to the newly-born Jewish state. They were received with open arms, immediately and fully integrated into Israeli society. They now form about 50 per cent of the population of Israel.

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By Howard, October 18, 2007 at 11:58 am Link to this comment

Right on ITW, nicely spoken…and I see what you mean about all the articles,too ! ( I looked at the one you pointed out: Museum of Native Indians ).  Unreal.

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By Conservative Yankee, October 18, 2007 at 5:34 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“The state of Israel was legally created out of the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I.”

Nope. Go re-read your history. Palestine was delineated and made a British protectorate following the treaty of 1920.  Israel was stolen from the Palestinians by Churchill and Roosevelt following the Second World War. David Ben-Gurion ( דָּוִד בֶּן-גּוּרִיּוֹן‎,)  was the first Prime Minster. Other sites for proposed location of Israel include land from Current Syria, Madagascar, and the land from current Jordan. All to be stolen from occupants.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 18, 2007 at 3:37 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Howard:
You just don’t get it!

Facts don’t matter. Logic doesn’t matter. Justice doesn’t matter.

A FAIR dialog between rational people is irrational.

Because there are some basic facts you are ignoring.

1) Israel, Israelis and all Jews (except the quislings) are irredeemably evil.  Just because they /we are.  Any action other than total acquiescence and surrender or national suicide is somehow a “crime against humanity”.

2) Palestinians, Arabs, and all Moslems are all maligned angels.  EVERY action they take, no matter how heinous is justified because Jews (and Americans) are so fundamentally evil.  By definition, there is NO act a Palestinian, Arab or Moslem could commit that can be called a “war crime” or a “crime against humanity”.

3) I will be called a lot filthy names and accused of supporting a lot of things I clearly detest. So will you.  They have a George W. Bush 2-dimensional sociopathic view of the world: There is “us” and there is “them”.  “We” are perfect angels and always right. “They” are evil, devils and always wrong.  Every quality belongs to “us”, every sin and evil belong to “them”.  In this bizarro alternate universe, you and I are “them”, as is anyone who DARES offer a rational argument or opines that we are anything BUT “them”.

So, when Tony Wicher, who vehemently disagrees with me, dares to defend my RIGHT to present an argument without being condemned “Ad Hominem”, dares to suggest that my arguments need to be evaluated as such,  Tony is immediately vilified as labeled as one of “them”.

4) Argument is futile since “we” already know what “they” think.  How? Magic. God’s speaking to them? Dialectical materialism? Every thread on Truthdig sooner or later becomes a platform for condemning Israel and Jews (Just check out the one on the Museum of Native Americans for a true but absurd example).

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By davr, October 18, 2007 at 3:00 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I think all of the above discussion and comments are very interesting and enlightening.

Arab countries in the Mid East will have nuclear weapons and delivery systems eventually.  This is inevitable.

When that happens the failed state of Israel will cease to exist.

All of the comments and discussion in the world can’t change that simple fact.

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By Howard, October 17, 2007 at 5:19 pm Link to this comment

The state of Israel was legally created out of the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I. The area was desolate – desert and swamp – with some small towns and a few inhabitants, many of them nomads. The inhabitants, if they thought about it at all, considered themselves Syrians. The legitimacy of Israel arises from the Balfour Declaration issued by the British, who were given the mandate over the area by the League of Nations. Jews have lived in the country since Biblical times. The Arabs from the surrounding areas were lured to “Palestine” by the industry and prosperity that the Jews brought to the region. Envy, hatred, and religious fanaticism turned the Arabs against the Jews. In bloody outrages, horrible massacres, killings and rapes, the Arabs tried to dislodge the Jews, but were unable to do so.

In 1947, the British, having tired of the trouble and the bloodshed, resigned their mandate. That same year, the United Nations mandated partitioning of the territory. The Jews, though disappointed, accepted the partition. The Arabs rejected it out of hand and launched war against Israel. The armies of five Arab countries invaded the nascent state. Following the exhortations of the invaders, the Arab residents got out of the way hoping to return after victory was attained. They could then reclaim their property and that of the Jews, all of whom would have been killed or would have fled. That and that alone is the source of the Arab “refugee problem.”

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By Conservative Yankee, October 17, 2007 at 2:24 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

107787 by Howard on 10/17 at 11:20 am

“Had the Arabs accepted the UN partition plan, there would now have been a state of “Palestine” for the last 58 years.”

Had we accepted the British tax plan back in 1776, we would now have government sponsored universal health care!

Are you saying the Palestinians should have bent over and handed Churchill and Roosevelt the Vaseline?

I often wondered why The US didn’t give them California instead?

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By Howard, October 17, 2007 at 12:20 pm Link to this comment

Had the Arabs accepted the UN partition plan, there would now have been a state of “Palestine” for the last 58 years. They might have attained a similar level of prosperity, advancement, and development as Israel, which, small though it is, is today in almost every regard one of the world’s most advanced countries.
Not the only refugees. There is dispute about the number of those refugees. Best estimates are that about 650,000 people fled. But those Arabs are not the only refugees of the 1948 war of Israel’s independence. About 800,000 Jews from Arab countries – from Morocco and Algeria to Iraq and Yemen – fled or were driven out of their home countries, where they had lived for centuries. Most of them left with just the clothes on their backs, leaving land, property, businesses, and wealth created over generations. Most fled to the newly-born Jewish state. They were received with open arms, immediately and fully integrated into Israeli society. They now form about 50 per cent of the population of Israel.

Not so with the Arab refugees. Their Arab brethren refused to integrate them into their countries and into their societies, but confined them in so-called “refugee camps,” essentially extended slums, where they or rather their descendants – now the fourth generation – have been living ever since. The reason for the refusal to integrate them into their Arab host countries has been the design to keep them as a festering sore and to make solution of the Arab/Israeli conflict impossible. These “refugees” are seething with hatred toward Israel and provide the cadres of suicide bombers.

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By Howard, October 17, 2007 at 10:40 am Link to this comment

There has been no violent dispossion or subjugaton. Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: “There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history, absolutely not.”

Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:

We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.

In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: “There is no such country [as Palestine]! ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria.”

The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said “Palestine was part of the Province of Syria” and that, “politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity.” A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: “It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria.”

Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel’s capture of the West Bank.

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By Trixie, October 17, 2007 at 8:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: Comments by Howard

I thought I made it clear that I abhor ALL religious fanatics, including Moslems (and Christians).  To find fault with those who are Jewish is not to underestimate the threat from others, but it’s my contention that the whole spectrum should be revealed and condemned.  Apparently you haven’t seen newscasts of Jews running through Palestinian communities shouting “Death to Arabs!” or heard American Jews express the opinion that only a dead Arab is a good Arab.  Two wrongs don’t make a right.  Each merely fuels the other. 

To understand a great deal of the friction in the Middle East, you have to remind yourself where Babylon was in current geography, where Persia was, and what Syria is short for.  Nowhere are the age-old grudges more apparent than in Psalm 137, repeated by Orthodox Jews as part of the grace after each meal (that has included bread), that reads, “O Babylon, who are destined to be laid waste, happy is he who will repay you in retribution for what you have inflicted on us.  Happy is he who will seize and crush your infants against the rock.” Horrified, I personally heard this passage cited in conjunction with reports of children’s deaths during the first Gulf War—cited in a spirit of triumph.  Zora Neale Hurston wrote that Jews have seen everything and forgotten nothing.  They also have forgiven nothing.  So if we pose the question about the chicken and the egg in this context, we have to admit that Islam was a reaction only centuries ago to a prejudice established millennia ago. Hatred breeds hatred, and the cycle will not end by exoriating only one side of the protracted conflict.  Someone has to stop and say, “Okay.  That’s enough.  Let’s bury the hatchet and consider our common welfare.”

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By Howard, October 17, 2007 at 5:55 am Link to this comment

Trixie; wow, what an inside track you have !  Put this along side your info on religious fanatics. This a ‘little’ worse than what you seemingly have discovered.

“All weapons must be aimed at the Jews, at the enemies of Allah…whom the Koran describes as monkeys and pigs, worshippers of the calf and idol worshippers. Allah shall make the Moslem rule over the Jew, we will blow them up in Hadera, we will blow them up in Tel Aviv and in Netanya in the righteousness of Allah against this rif-raff…..We will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, and Jaffa as conquerors, and Haifa as conquerors and Ashkelon as conquerors…we bless all those who educate their children to jihad and to Martyrdom, blessing be he who shot a bullet into the head of a Jew.”

— Sermon broadcast on Palestinian Authority television, August 3, 2001

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By Trixie, October 16, 2007 at 7:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: Remarks by “Howard” and “Charles Barton”

You need to do some more research.  I have an inside track to the mindset and goals of the ultra-Fundamenalist Jewish sects, and nothing less than complete takeover of all the land currently occupied by Palestinians is their goal.  Jewish students in American yeshivas draw maps captioned “My Israel” that show no such areas on them.  It is no secret that Israel has urged US intervention in both Iraq and Iran as a means to promote their agenda.  This has been credibly reported for some time.

I predicted when the Bush Administration first began its “prelude to war” noise aganst Iran that it would be getting more than it bargained for if it actually followed through, since I couldn’t imagine Russia sitting idly by and waching us gobble up all the oil in the region and completely disrupt international relations there.  So what do we see on TV today?  Putin shaking the hand of Ahmajinedad and warning the US off. 

Secular Jews in Israel are just as alarmed by the power of the right-wing Chassidim as some in America are by right-wing Islamists.  Here is a statement by
Amnon Dankner, an Israeli journalist for the Labor-Socialist newspaper Davar.  Writing in an open letter to the community of ultraconservative religious haredim there, he says, “I want no dialogue with you for I have nothing to say to
you. I want no part of you. . . . I will protect my soul and the souls of my children from you, from your evil, primitive, mindlessly brainwashed spirit. I will speak and write against you in every place, for you are the greatest danger to my existence here.”  That just about says it all.

I would remind those who see no sinister “power” behind conservative Israeli politics to consider the fact that a group of Kabbalist rabbis were videotaped (and shown on a major American newscast) performing a ritualistic curse intended to kill Aaron Sharon.  When asked if they actually thought it would work, the reply was, “It worked on Rabin.”  Not long afterwards, Sharon had the first of his strokes that have resulted in his being no more than a vegetable. That’s as good as dead for all practical purposes.

The numbers of the haredim in Israel (as in the US) are growing exponentially, since they do not believe in practicing any kind of birth control and therefore are multiplying like proverbial rabbits.  They zealously preserve their isolation against assimilation except insofar as it is necessary to make a living, so there is litte opportunity for the young among them to break out of the mold. 

I am not willing to consign my fate to any crazy religious zealots, whoever they are, and I maintain that it is in the best interest of the world at large that each one of them be exposed and resisted with every nonviolent method available.  That includes to a very large extent rational discourse based on known fact, leaving emotion and ancient ties and myths completely out of the picture.

I would also remind those who defend anything and everything Israel does that an Israeli company by the name of Amdocs has been reported by offficial investigators (within DEA, INS and the FBI) to be recording “virtually every phone call in the U.S.” And you thought you had only one Big Brother to worry about.

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By Charles Barton, October 16, 2007 at 1:33 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Mearsheimer and Walt are claiming that the Elder’s of Zion are running the Zionist Occupied Government.  Well they did not use those exact terms, but we know what they mean, don’t we?  After all it is the same thing.

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By Howard, October 16, 2007 at 10:55 am Link to this comment

Jeez, what tremendous power you say Israel and the Israeli lobby has over U.S. foreign policy decisions, like going into the Iraq war. And perhaps into or against Iran.
  Hope its true.  More power to ‘em !

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By weather, October 16, 2007 at 5:59 am Link to this comment

Israel shoots themselves directly into the head.

Standing outside the gates to Heaven they refuse to budge, demanding that God first find, identify and punish the assailant.

How do you say pathologic denial in Hebrew?

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By Howard, October 16, 2007 at 4:22 am Link to this comment

Like America’s war against the Taliban and al-Qaeda, the Arab-Israeli dispute is a conflict between opposing philosophies. On the one side are the forces of mysticism, medieval tribalism, dictatorship—and terror; on the other side are the forces of reason, individualism, capitalism—and civilization. Hamas and Hezbaloah and theier sympathizers hate Israel for the same reason that Osama bin Laden and his sympathizers hate America, i.e., for embracing secular, Western values. No “peace process” is possible with such enemies.

This is not an ethnic battle between Jews and Arabs, but a moral battle between those who value the individual’s right to be free and those who don’t. Those Arabs who value individual freedom are enemies of their regimes and deserve to be embraced by Israel; those Jews who do not value individual freedom deserve to be condemned by Israel.

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By Trixie, October 15, 2007 at 8:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The charge of “anti-Semitism” is employed in the same way that aspersions are used against anyone denouncing the war in Iraq.  In each case, legitimate criticism of the particular is extrapolated to the whole: deploring policies of the Israeli government in respect to the Palestinians is interpreted as intolerance towards all Jews, and denunciations against the rationale for and conduct of the war are held to constitute unpatriotic lack of support for the soldiers fighting in it.  Both responses to valid complaints are deliberately misleading, not to mention spurious to the Nth degree.  Anyone not willing to face them down with cold fact is not worthy of living in a democracy.

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By Howard, October 15, 2007 at 4:04 pm Link to this comment

We’ve been arguing over al Qaeda’s aims since before 9/11. Some take Osama bin Laden’s specific complaints seriously. But we shouldn’t, as we learned this month from his latest rambling communiqué, which faulted America for seemingly everything — global warming, high interest rates, shaky home mortgages, and free-market democratic capitalism itself.

Remember that back in the 1990s, he declared war on America for three other reasons: We had troops in Saudi Arabia. The United Nations had imposed sanctions on Iraq. And just maybe because America supported Israel (?). Now it apparently matters little that there are neither embargoes of Iraq nor American soldiers in Saudi Arabia.

In 2004, bin Laden objected to our logical conclusion that he instead hated the West simply for its freedom. He posed this rhetorical question: “Contrary to what Bush says and claims — that we hate freedom — let him tell us then, ‘Why did we not attack Sweden?’”

I think we can now answer that by pointing out that al Qaeda since has put out a $100,000 murder bounty on a Swedish cartoonist who was a little too free in his caricatures of Islam. Note that Sweden has no troops in Iraq or Afghanistan, lets in plenty of Middle Eastern Muslims and wants no part of George Bush’s “war on terror.”

But then radical Islamists have also threatened Danish cartoonists, Dutch filmmakers, German opera producers, and the pope. All have nothing to do with Iraq or Afghanistan or Israel — but simply do things that radical Islam finds blasphemous.

So aren’t these constantly changing gripes of al Qaeda’s just pretexts for bin Laden’s larger hatred of Western-inspired freedom?

The truth is that bin Laden and al Qaeda want power for themselves, and use religious grievances and shifting political demands to try to achieve it.

In their worldview, Islam’s chance for a renewed united Muslim caliphate was shattered into impotent warring nations by sneaky 19th-century European colonists. They now want to reunite modern Arab nations into an Islamic empire run by the likes of bin Laden and his sidekick, Ayman al Zawahiri.

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By Howard, October 15, 2007 at 10:30 am Link to this comment

Bin Laden was ( “is”, the right word if still alive ) a typical anarcharistic islamic murderer who showed no support of the Pal’s until pressed by media interviewers to come out with the cliches of ‘occupied lands’. So he could become wider in scope than just against his native Saudi Government. Which was enough in his sick mind ‘till he bit off more than he could chew!
  And the term “occupied territories” brings up even more. In politics words matter and, unfortunately, the misuse of words applying to the Arab-Israeli conflict has shaped perceptions to Israel’s disadvantage. As in the case of the term “West Bank,” the word “occupation” has been hijacked by those who wish to paint Israel in the harshest possible light. It also gives apologists a way to try to explain away terrorism as “resistance to occupation,” as if the women and children killed by suicide bombers in buses, pizzerias, and shopping malls were responsible for the plight of the Arabs. Given the negative connotation of an “occupier,” it is not surprising that Arab spokespersons use the word, or some variation, as many times as possible when interviewed by the press. The more accurate description of the territories in Judea and Samaria is “disputed” territories.

In fact, most other disputed territories around the world are not referred to as being occupied by the party that controls them. This is true, for example, of the hotly contested region of Kashmir.13

Occupation typically refers to foreign control of an area that was under the previous sovereignty of another state. In the case of the West Bank, there was no legitimate sovereign because the territory had been illegally occupied by Jordan from 1948 to 1967. Only two countries — Britain and Pakistan — recognized Jordan’s action. The Palestinians never demanded an end to Jordanian occupation and the creation of a Palestinian state.

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By Howard, October 15, 2007 at 6:02 am Link to this comment

THIS post by Jacko is the finest of seen in a loooong time !
===================================
#105760 by Jacko on 10/09 at 7:18 am
(2 comments total)

Responding to Tim, re the 9/11 attack being because of support of Israel, Bin Laden is on record as stating at the time that the attack was because of US involvement is Saudi Arabia and his aim was the overthrow of the House of Saud, whose brand of Islam is not to his liking. Only later did the anti-Israel media lobby help him to broaden his aims to include Palestinian issues.
Opinion is all very well but it must be based on fact and not prejudice.

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By FFURKS, October 14, 2007 at 5:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“This is the latest podcast from truthdig that is apparently being censored for content. It’s not on the main page - I suspect because Ralph Nader makes Robert Scheer look like Marx and Engels “bourgeois” socialist.”

No it’s a technical glitch… go to podcasts (above) scroll down to your subject, and click on it… you’ll get it!

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By adamjohn12, October 14, 2007 at 12:57 am Link to this comment

http://www.truthdig.com/podcast/item/20071009_robert_scheer_debates_ralph_nader/

This is the latest podcast from truthdig that is apparently being censored for content. It’s not on the main page - I suspect because Ralph Nader makes Robert Scheer look like Marx and Engels “bourgeois” socialist.

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By thomas billis, October 13, 2007 at 10:02 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Just one example of how crazy it has gotten.The first thing you hear when discussing Ahmindejab is he must be somebody we cannot deal with because he is a holocaust denier.Who cares if he denies the holocaust or thinks the world is flat or that Britney Spears is the logical successor of Albert Einsten.We are looking to avoid a war with Iran not give him a history lesson.By that logic we should not be dealing with Turkey they deny the genocide perpetrated on the Armenians.I have never heard we cannot deal with Turkey because they are genocide deniers.

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By RemarksRamarks, October 13, 2007 at 9:48 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#105988:
And they Killed him, nuff SAID.

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By Myronh, October 12, 2007 at 7:23 am Link to this comment

It is obvious that Rowman has only one oar in the water. I wondered where the other oar went. Now I know; Lefty has the other one and they are both going in a Republican circle, which is kind of like a dog chasing his tail, except the dog is harmless; I wish I could feel the same about the likes of Rowman and Lefty.

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By Skeptic, October 12, 2007 at 1:01 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

And rowman says that the land belongs to the jewish people, because god said so?? So all this nonsense based on claims based on a brilliant work of fiction and an imaginary friend called god? And of course not forgetting that the palestinians making the same claims. Maybe they all deserve each other.

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By rowman, October 11, 2007 at 2:35 pm Link to this comment

that’s right 100% behind Israel and the Jewish people.

The Palestinian have tried to assert some false claim over the land. Its a lie. They try to re write the origional text to act as if it was theirs.

Read the old testement. land borders are defined and given by God himself. Muhammad did not come on the scene until many, many years later.

Land belongs to the Jews.

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By rowman, October 11, 2007 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

that’s right 100% behind Israel and the Jewish people.

The Palestinian have tried to assert some bs claim over the land. Its just that. BS!

Read the old testement. land borders are defined and given by God himself. Muhammad did not come on the scene until many, many years later.

Land belongs to the Jews.

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By Jan, October 10, 2007 at 9:06 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Who do we go to church to worship? A Jew named Jesus. Nuff said.

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By Jacko, October 9, 2007 at 8:18 am Link to this comment

Responding to Tim, re the 9/11 attack being because of support of Israel, Bin Laden is on record as stating at the time that the attack was because of US involvement is Saudi Arabia and his aim was the overthrow of the House of Saud, whose brand of Islam is not to his liking. Only later did the anti-Israel media lobby help him to broaden his aims to include Palestinian issues.
Opinion is all very well but it must be based on fact and not prejudice.

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By rodney, October 9, 2007 at 8:16 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Oil and Israel are the reasons the US involvement in the Middle East. Eventually World War 3 will be in the Middle East. Which very well may be soon have if the Bush Administration invades Iran in order to secure it’s oil and attempt to set up another puppet government. There will come a day when China and Russia will no longer sit by and allow the US and Israel to run ruffshod over the rest of the Middle East and control it’s oil supply. The Bush Administration has done nothing to promote Middle East peace, but rather they started and provoked Middle East wars.

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By Joe, October 8, 2007 at 8:44 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Israel has a right to defend herself.  Israel has NO right to settle foreign lands.  The West Bank and Gaza are foreign lands occupied after the Six Day War.

It’s not complicated.  Cut off all Israeli aid until they vacate all settlements in the West Bank and Gaza.

We don’t subsidize Palestinian aggression.  Why should the US subsidize Israeili aggression?

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By Robert, October 8, 2007 at 12:12 pm Link to this comment

Dissenting at your own risk
By CECILIE SURASKY
Special to the Star-Telegram

“Last year, I agreed to speak to a Jewish youth group about my organization, Jewish Voice for Peace, and our opposition to Israel’s occupation. My talk was to follow one from a member of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, which calls itself “America’s pro-Israel Lobby.”

A week before, a shaken program leader said the AIPAC staffer had threatened to get the entire youth program’s funding canceled if I was allowed in the door. The threat worked, and in disgust, they canceled the whole talk.

Pundits will surely argue for years about professors Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer’s explosive new book, The Israel Lobby, which blames poor U.S. policy in the Middle East on a loose network of individuals and pro-Israel advocacy groups.

But the book, and the response to it, opens up another controversy: the stifling of debate about unconditional U.S. support for Israeli policies.

Why is Israel’s increasingly brutal 40-year occupation of Palestinian land regularly debated in the mainstream media abroad, including in Israel, but not here? And why is there an almost total lack of discussion among presidential candidates about the dollars that subsidize this occupation and the American diplomatic support that makes it possible?

In a society built on the free exchange of ideas, as Walt and Mearsheimer point out, one answer can be found by looking at the many self-appointed gatekeepers, such as Abraham Foxman and the Anti-Defamation League, or Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, who use their Jewish identity as both a shield and cudgel. They work diligently to silence those who question ill-conceived policies of the Israeli and U.S. governments.

Non-Jewish critics, even former President Carter, are denounced as anti-Semites. Special ire is reserved for Jewish dissenters, who are branded as “self-hating” or “marginal,” while Muslim and Arab-Americans are easily smeared and even criminalized with charges of supporting terrorism.

Stunned by the stifling of dissent, we decided to start a Web site, Muzzlewatch, to track the incidents. Just as we launched, Stanford Middle East Studies Professor Joel Beinin was disinvited from a speaking engagement at a high school with just 24 hours’ notice.

After an unprecedented campaign of outside interference waged by Dershowitz, Professor Norman Finkelstein was refused tenure by DePaul University because of his criticism of U.S.-Israeli policy. Palestinian-American anthropologist Nadia Abu El-Haj is fighting a political campaign to deny her tenure at Barnard.

Even Walt and Mearsheimer, who are getting plenty of exposure, couldn’t have asked for better proof of their point that the lobby works to stifle dissent when an embarrassed head of the Chicago Council on Global Affairs told them that their scheduled speech was canceled. (They did speak before the World Affairs Council of Dallas/Fort Worth on Sept. 17.) This was apparently because Foxman was not available that day to “balance” their talk.

(They had initially been booked by themselves. The talk was not rescheduled.)

Many groups that started with the important work of fighting real anti-Semitism now rely on anti-Semitism to insist that to show one’s love of Jews, one must offer uncritical support to Israel. They are especially displeased by Jews who believe that enabling Israeli violations of Palestinian human rights is not good for anyone.

Unless this atmosphere of intimidation is confronted, Americans will continue to lack access to information and perspectives necessary to formulate effective Middle East policies, virtually ensuring that Israel and the United States will be at war for many years to come.”

‘The Israel Lobby’

http://podcast.dfwworld.org/2007_09-17_The_Israel_Lobby.MP3

(Cecilie Surasky is communications director for the Oakland-based Jewish Voice for Peace.)

http://www.star-telegram.com/245/story/255318.html

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By dick, October 8, 2007 at 8:40 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Our intervention,some 60 years ago,  on behalf of the Jews in Palestine has trapped us in quicksand which will eventually swallow us. The Israel Lobby now controls our foreign policy,etc, and is a member of the power elite.

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By Robert, October 8, 2007 at 7:43 am Link to this comment

Weekend Edition
October 6 / 7, 2007

New Revalations About the Attack on the USS Liberty

So Who’s Afraid of the Israel Lobby?

By RAY McGOVERN

“Virtually everyone: Republican, Democrat-Conservative, Liberal. The fear factor is non-partisan, you might say, and palpable. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) brags that it is the most influential foreign policy lobbying organization on Capitol Hill, and has demonstrated that time and again-and not only on Capitol Hill.

Seldom has the Lobby’s power been as clearly demonstrated as in its ability to suppress the awful truth that on June 8, 1967, during the Six Day War:

o Israel deliberately attacked the intelligence collection ship USS Liberty, in full awareness it was a U.S. Navy ship, and did its best to sink it and leave no survivors;

o The Israelis would have succeeded had they not broken off the attack upon learning, from an intercepted message, that the commander of the U.S. 6th Fleet had launched carrier fighters to the scene; and

o By that time 34 of the Liberty’s crew had been killed and over 170 wounded.

Scores of intelligence analysts and senior officials have known this for years. That virtually all of them have kept a forty-year frightened silence is testament to the widespread fear of touching this live wire. Even more telling is the fact that the National Security Agency apparently has destroyed voice tapes and transcripts heard and seen by many intelligence analysts, material that shows beyond doubt that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing.


The Ugly Truth

But the truth will out-eventually. All it took in this case was for a courageous journalist (of the endangered species kind) to listen to the surviving crew and do a little basic research, not shrinking from naming war crimes and not letting senior U.S. officials, from the president on down, off the hook for suppressing-even destroying-damning evidence from intercepted Israeli communications.

The mainstream media have now published an exposé based largely on interviews with those most intimately involved. A lengthy article by Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporter John Crewdson appeared in the Chicago Tribune and Baltimore Sun on Oct. 2 titled “New revelations in attack on American spy ship.” the subtitle goes the prize for understatement of the year: “Veterans, documents suggest U.S., Israel didn’t tell full story of deadly 1967 incident.”

Better 40 years late than never, I suppose. Many of us have known of the incident and cover-up for a very long time and have tried to expose and discuss it for the lessons it holds for today. It has proved far easier, though, to get a very pedestrian Dog-Bites-Man article published than an article with the importance and explosiveness of this sensitive story.


A Marine Stands Up

On the evening of Sept. 26, 2006, I gave a talk on Iraq to an overflow crowd of 400 at National Avenue Church in Springfield, Missouri. A questioner asked what I thought of the study by John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen Walt of Harvard titled “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy.” The study had originally been commissioned by The Atlantic Monthly. When the draft arrived, however, shouts of “Leper!” were heard at the Atlantic. The monthly wasted no time in saying thanks-but-no-thanks, and the leper-study then wandered in search of a home, finding none among American publishers. Eventually the London Review of Books published it in March 2006.”

Click on the link/URL for the rest of the facts/story:
http://www.counterpunch.org/mcgovern10062007.html

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By Howard, October 8, 2007 at 3:51 am Link to this comment

RE”    by Lee on 10/07 at 7:09 am
(Unregistered commenter)

It’s amazing how history continues to repeat itself. The Jews are once again being used as the ultimate scapegoat. If you recall, the lands that Israel occupied are a result of Israel being attacked by surrounding countries who were intent on totally destroying Israel! And, today, whether it’s Iran, or other anti semites, they once again try to tell everyone that the jews are responsible for all the world’s problems. Regarding the Palestinians ... they can’t even get along with each other. Their sacred cow leader, Yassar Arafat ripped off his own people, allowing them to live in poverty, while he hoarded millions that were meant for the Palestinians. And, when the Palestinians have had a chance to self govern, have peace, have stability, have economic opportunity ... they had only themselves to blame for once again messing it up! Furthermore, I’m so sick of these idiots who think the west can reason with a Muslim world that believes in, and is boldly pursueing the Islamic caliphate. How foolish, naive, and stupid!
=================================
RIGHT ON LEE;  THIS IS EXPLAINS IT WELL !!

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