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Breaking the Taboo: Why We Took On the Israel Lobby

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Posted on Oct 4, 2007
John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt.
israellobbybook.com

“The Israel Lobby” authors John J. Mearsheimer (left) and Stephen M. Walt.

Eric Chinski, the editor of John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt’s provocative new bestseller, asks the authors whether their book is good for the Jews and good for America.  This interview originally appeared on the Web site of the publishing house Farrar, Straus and Giroux.

Why did your article “The Israel Lobby,” which was published in the London Review of Books in 2006, provoke such heated discussion around the world? James Traub wrote in The New York Times Magazine: “ ‘The Israel Lobby’ slammed into the opinion-making world with a Category 5 force.” How would you describe the reaction?

The article received enormous attention because it challenged what had become a taboo issue in mainstream foreign policy circles, namely the impact of the Israel lobby on U.S. Middle East policy. We did not question Israel’s legitimacy and explicitly stated that the United States should come to Israel’s aid if its survival is at risk, but we did argue that pro-Israel groups in the United States were encouraging policies that were ultimately not in America’s national interest. Although the views we expressed are often discussed openly in other democracies—including Israel itself—they have rarely been set forth in detail by mainstream figures in the United States. The article was also of great interest to many readers because it has become increasingly obvious that U.S. Middle East policy has gone badly awry. Although a number of groups and individuals either mischaracterized our views or attacked us personally, many other readers agreed that such an examination of the lobby’s role was long overdue.

Why did you feel the need to follow up the article with your book “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy”? What more is there to say?

Writing a book provided an opportunity to present a more nuanced and complete statement of our views, and also allowed us to address some of the responses to the original article. Although the article was long by magazine standards, space limitations forced us to omit several key issues and to deal with other topics more briefly than we would have liked. Events like the 2006 Lebanon war had not occurred when the article was published, and additional information about other episodes—such as the U.S. decision to invade Iraq—had since come to light. Thus, writing a book allowed us to refine our analysis and bring it up to date. 

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In particular, the book presents a more detailed definition of the lobby, an extended discussion of its development and rightward drift over time, an examination of the role of the so-called Christian Zionists, and an analysis of the controversial issue of “dual loyalty.” We also offer a more detailed description of the various strategies that groups in the lobby use to advance their goals within the U.S. political system. The book also addresses the widespread belief—as illustrated by Michael Moore’s documentary “Fahrenheit 9/11”—that oil companies are the real driving force behind America’s Middle East policy, and explains why this view is incorrect.

Finally, our original article did not offer much in the way of positive prescriptions, but the book outlines a new approach to U.S. Middle East policy that would better serve U.S. interests and, in our view, be better for Israel as well. To that end, it also identifies how the influence of the lobby might become more constructive, for the good of both countries.

What is the extent of American financial, diplomatic, and military aid to Israel, and how does it compare with other states’?

Israel is the largest recipient of U.S. economic and military assistance, having received more than $154 billion in U.S. aid since its creation in 1948, and it currently receives roughly $3 billion in direct U.S. assistance every year, even though it is now a prosperous country. The United States also consistently gives Israel diplomatic support, and consistently comes to its aid in wartime, as it did during the 2006 war in Lebanon. Most important, U.S. support for Israel is largely unconditional: Israel receives generous American assistance even when it takes actions that the U.S. government believes are wrong, such as building settlements in the Occupied Territories. As former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin once remarked, U.S. backing for Israel is “beyond compare in modern history.”

Isn’t America’s special relationship with Israel based on strong strategic and moral arguments? Isn’t it important for the United States to have an ally that shares our values in a region dominated by extremism and enemies of America?

Israel is not the strategic asset to the United States that many claim. Israel may have been a strategic asset during the Cold War, but it has become a growing liability now that the Cold War is over. Unconditional support for Israel has reinforced anti-Americanism around the world, helped fuel America’s terrorism problem, and strained relations with other key allies in Europe, the Middle East, and Asia. The United States derives some tangible strategic benefits from its close security partnership with Israel, but it pays a high price for them. On balance, it is more of a liability than an asset.

Similarly, the moral case for unconditional U.S. support is not compelling. Israel is a democracy, but no other democracy gets the same level of support that Israel does—and so unconditionally. There is a strong moral case for Israel’s existence, which is why we support a Jewish state in Palestine and believe the U.S. should come to its aid if its survival is jeopardized. But many of Israel’s policies—especially the continued occupation of the West Bank and its refusal to allow the Palestinians a viable state of their own—are at odds with key U.S. values. Viewed objectively, the early Zionists’ behavior during the founding of the Jewish state and Israel’s later behavior toward the Palestinians and its Arab neighbors undermine the myth of Israel as victim and the Arabs as aggressors. 

The strategic and moral rationales for unconditional U.S. support have grown weaker since the end of the Cold War, yet U.S. support has continued to increase. This anomaly suggests that some other factor is at work.


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Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, October 30, 2007 at 3:48 pm Link to this comment

‘I didn’t suggest we kill Palestinians’
Ruthie Blum , THE JERUSALEM POST Oct. 10, 2007

Arnon Soffer arrives at our meeting armed with a stack of books and papers. Among them is a copy of an interview I conducted with him three and a half years ago (“It’s the demography, stupid,” May 21, 2004), and print-outs of angry responses the geostrategist from the University of Haifa says he continues to receive “from leftists in Israel and anti-Semites abroad, who took my words out of context.” 

The passage that aroused the most ire was as follows: “When 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it’s going to be a human catastrophe. Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful. It’s going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day.” 

A lot has happened since Soffer made that statement, most notably the very withdrawal from Gaza he was referring to and so championed. In fact, the impetus for the pull-out has been attributed, at least in part, to Soffer’s decades-long doomsaying about the danger the Palestinian womb posed to Israeli democracy. 

The venue of our follow-up interview last month - initiated by Soffer to gloat about his “predictions having panned out perfectly” - is the Dan Accadia Hotel. Though selected due to its proximity to the IDF’s National Defense College, where Soffer lectures and serves as head of research, it couldn’t be a more ironic location. It was here, after all, that former prime minister Ariel Sharon announced his disengagement plan to the Herzliya Conference. 

While nothing seems to be the same since that fateful day in December 2003, Soffer’s convictions haven’t budged an iota. He still holds a deep - what critics might call delusional - devotion to the notion that exiting Palestinian-populated territories is the key to fending off the country’s otherwise destined demise. Well, that, and a fence to keep a majority of settlers in and a flow of inevitable Arab intruders out. 

“Israel is like the Titanic,” Soffer bellows with cheerful self-assurance. “I am trying to change its course - prevent it from crashing into the iceberg - and allow it to continue safely on its journey. But up on the Tel Aviv deck, they’re having a big party - a stock-market orgy. And when I try to warn them of the fast-approaching disaster, they tell me I’m being ridiculous or that I’m exaggerating.” 

To prove his point, Soffer repeatedly whips out maps to back up his pronouncements, many of which sound purposefully outrageous, such as: “Jerusalem is no longer Jewish-Zionist,” and “Iran is so weak and vulnerable that it’s unbelievable.” 

And, in spite of his speaking in absolutes, Soffer does deign to concede that he’s changed his mind about a couple of issues: the Jordan Valley and the Philadelphi Corridor. He no longer supports relinquishing the former, and now believes the latter has to be repossessed. 

No small matter, but no matter. The 71-year-old father of four and grandfather of eight still supports every other aspect of what he considers to be a “brilliant maneuver” by Sharon to guarantee a Jewish majority in Israel, with the blessing of the United States. 

Challenged, as he was during our previous interview, on Israel’s willingness to do what he prescribes is necessary in the war against Palestinian aggression - i.e. put a bullet in the head of anyone who tries to climb over the security fence - Soffer shrugs. “If we don’t,” he reiterates, “We’ll cease to exist.”

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By Howard, October 30, 2007 at 3:21 pm Link to this comment

WHAT EXPANSIONIST PLANS OF ISRAEL ??

Lordee, they leave Gaza so that economic recovery and a new beginning can happen under their own gov’t and rules, and all they get in resonse are rockets sent from Gaza into Israel. Should the Israelis’ wait until one hits a school bldg full of kids?
  They left Lebanon and then 8 soldiers killed in a raid from there and 2 kidnapped and whom have yet to be returned. And a war started by a non-government entity from within Lebanon. 
  What lands have they expanded into? Any little lands taken were a result of invasive wars thrust against them. Israel is not as big as Rhode Island. 20 very large Arab countries surround them with oodles of acreage and oil.  Israel does not want land; they want peace and to be left alone.
  Who will talk with them?  Expansionism, my foot !

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By Tony Wicher, October 30, 2007 at 1:53 pm Link to this comment

#110424 by Inherit The Wind on 10/30 at 2:39 am
“No, I have NO objection to criticism of the GOVERNMENT of Israel, legitimate criticism based on their actions, not insane fantasies of world domination whipped up like a James Bond movie by Aretologist.

I have long thought AND STATED AT TRUTHDIG that the expansionist plans of the Likudniks and Netanyahu were dangerous, stupid and illegal and NEED to be opposed.”
——————————————————————————
So you have, my friend, and that is why I hope you and I and NC and perhaps others on this blog such as PH can make common cause against both anti-Semites like Aretologist and Zionists like Lefy, both of whom, if you look at it, are doing the same thing, which is to separate Jews from the rest of humanity. 

I

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By Leefeller, October 30, 2007 at 1:17 pm Link to this comment

My point is that lobbyist’s are a problem because they are allowed to exist, for money, favors and ladies of the night. 

Graft should be corrupt, who do you blame the john or the lady, congress or the lobby? I blame congress, it does not matter which lobby is most successful, the people lose in the end anyway.

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By Leefeller, October 30, 2007 at 12:43 pm Link to this comment

To bad congress likes giving undue influence to lobbyist’s, just think if lobbies were not allowed,  compared to the common man, this book would never have been written and the bigots would not have been able to crawl out of the wood work.  All lobbies are a problem, seems some like to focus on just one.

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By Trixie, October 30, 2007 at 11:44 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

How in the world can The News Hour (PBS) justify having a nut like Normal Podhoretz on as a guest!  Iran is the next Nazi Germany out to conquer the entire globe?  PLEASE!  The man should be in straightjacket.  If you’re looking for the perfect example of how much harm Jewish influence can have on US policies, look no farther than him.

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By weather, October 30, 2007 at 9:45 am Link to this comment

left out, you’re a buffoon at the end of a keyboard. What’s that like?

Israel makes their problem our problem. Asks us to pay for it and then has the manipulating and deceitful balls to Lie about it - like they’re doing us a big favor.
May you wash the feet of those living and serving in Iraq.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 30, 2007 at 3:39 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Non Credo on 10/29 at 8:11 pm
(422 comments total)

regarding #110337 by Inherit The Wind on 10/29 at 5:14 pm:

I’m glad that you appreciated what I had to say, but I must tell you that this isn’t some kind of sudden change of heart on my part. This has always been my position. But in your paranoia, you haven’t been able to imagine this, because you have been obsessively determined to believe that I’m homicidally anti-Jewish. In my mind there are a lot of pretty clear distinctions, and one of them is the distinction between “the Jews” and “Israel” (and even further, “the government of Israel” - which is often what one really means when speaking of “Israel” as a political or military agent in the world).

But you must admit, maintaining this distinction requires some sophistication, since the governing ideology of the state of Israel itself insists on conflating the state of Israel with “the Jewish people”. Obviously, our poor Aretologist fell prey to exactly the confusion which the state of Israel works so hard to promote.

Ah, well, I hoped for a shred of grace from you too. Guess not. Well, I take what scraps I can.

No, I have NO objection to criticism of the GOVERNMENT of Israel, legitimate criticism based on their actions, not insane fantasies of world domination whipped up like a James Bond movie by Aretologist.

I have long thought AND STATED AT TRUTHDIG that the expansionist plans of the Likudniks and Netanyahu were dangerous, stupid and illegal and NEED to be opposed.

I have also stated that the Lebanese excursion, while initially justified, was so mis-conceived and executed it looked like Israel had given control of its military strategies to George W. Bush—that HE was controlling Israel, not the other way around (as the REAL neo-nazis like Aretologist says.)

BTW, what does “Aretologist” mean? Is it a contraction of “Aryan-tologist” which would fit his bizarre ravings on biological racism?

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By Aretologist, October 30, 2007 at 2:54 am Link to this comment

  “For manipulation and conditioning to be most effective, evidence of its presence should be nonexistent. When the manipulated believe things are the way they are naturally and inevitably, manipulation is successful. In short, manipulation requires a false reality that is a continuous denial of its existence.
  “It is essential, therefore, that people who are being conditioned and manipulated believe in the neutrality of the mass media and their social institutions. They must believe that government, the media,education, are beyond the clash of conflicting social interests.
  “The national government in particular remains the centerpiece of the neutrality myth. This myth presupposes belief in the basic integrity and nonpartisanship of government in general and of its constituent parts - Congress, the judiciary, and the Presidency.  Corruption and deceit, when they occur from time to time, are seen to be the result of individual human weakness. The institutions themselves are considered beyond reproach. The fundamental soundness and weakness of the overall system is assured by the well-designed instrumentalities that comprise the whole mass media.
  “The mass media are supposed to be neutral. Departures from fairness and objectivity in news reportage are admitted but, the media assures us,  result from individual human error and cannot be interpreted as flaws in the basically sound and honest institutions of information dissemination.
  “That the media are almost without exception, business enterprises, receiving their revenues from commercial sales of time or space (and that the majority of these business enterprises are controlled by Jews or by their ardent supporters) seems to create no problems of ‘conflict of interests’ from those who defend the objectivity and integrity of the information services.”
  “The system of education (in America), from the elementary through the university level - and
beyond - is also, according to the manipulators, devoid of deliberate ideological purpose.  (I. e. There is no ulterior motive behind the mandatory study of the Holocaust and semi annual visits by all public school children to their local Holocaust Museum built for this specific purpose.)
    “Essential to the everyday maintenance of the control system is the carefully nurtured myth that no special groups (AIPAC) or views (Israel) have a preponderant influence on the country’s important decision-making processes.”  From: THE MIND MANAGERS - How The Master Puppeteers of Politics and Mass Communication Pull the Strings of (American) Public Opinion - H. I. Schiller, 1974

The conditioning of the American people by our mass media (Israel’s public relations representative in the U.S)  is of course an ‘illusion’ which public officials ignore - even though it is so obvious.

Why?  Because it causes “consonant dissonance” in our politicians and recognizing and complaining about it wouldn’t be “good for the “normal Jews.”

“The current situation in America is by way of being something of a psychiatric clinic. In order to come to an understanding of this situation there is doubtless much else to be taken into account, but the case of America is after all, not fairly to be understood without making due allowance for a certain prevalent unbalance and derangement of mentality, presumably transient but sufficiently grave for the time being. Perhaps the commonest and plainest evidence of this unbalanced mentality is to be seen in a certain fearsome and feverish credulity with which a large proportion of the Americans are affected.”  Thorstein Veblen, 1900

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By Tony Wicher, October 29, 2007 at 11:10 pm Link to this comment

Re #110377 by Non Credo on 10/29 at 8:11 pm
(422 comments total)

“But you must admit, maintaining this distinction requires some sophistication, since the governing ideology of the state of Israel itself insists on conflating the state of Israel with “the Jewish people”. Obviously, our poor Aretologist fell prey to exactly the confusion which the state of Israel works so hard to promote.”

NC,

Yes he did and so have many others, more every day. That is why courageous and patriotic American Jews neede to speak up and say that they are proud Jews and Americans but not Zionists. As you say also, their sympathy with Jews living in Israel is perfectly natural. But that is not the same thing as approval of the policies of the state of Israel. Jews are tired of being forced by Zionists to toe the party line, but it has been understandably hard for them to bring themselves to speak out on a subject that has been taboo since their childhood. 

There are many places where the voices of such Jews are to be heard. Here are links to some powerful Jewish voices and resources. The only way to fight Zionism is to form alliances with Jewish people who see how Zionism is damaging Jewish people and fomenting anti-Semitism all over the world. 

http://www.tikkun.org/(Tikkun Community/NSP)
http://tonykaron.com/ (“The Rootless Csmopolitan”)
http://www.muzzlewatch.org/(Muzzlewatch)
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/ (True Torah Jews)
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/
http://www.joelkovel.org/ (Overcoming Zionism)

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By Tony Wicher, October 29, 2007 at 10:36 pm Link to this comment

Re #110372 by Tony Wicher on 10/29 at 7:52 pm
(311 comments total)

Oops, a typo. I meant to say Aretologist fails to distiguish between Zionism and Judaism.

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By Tony Wicher, October 29, 2007 at 8:52 pm Link to this comment

Re #110323 by Non Credo on 10/29 at 4:04 pm

Very well said. Thanks, NC. Aretologist really is anti-Semitic because he does distinguish correctly between Judaism and Zionism.

We have to be very careful. There are pitfalls and illusions on every side.

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By Robert, October 29, 2007 at 6:48 pm Link to this comment

October 29, 2007

The First Nation to Legalize Torture
Inside Israel’s Military Courts

By LISA HAJJAR

Should the United States, seeking to recalibrate the balance between security and liberty in the “war on terror,” emulate Israel in its treatment of Palestinian detainees?

That is the position that Guantanamo detainee lawyers Avi Stadler and John Chandler of Atlanta, and some others, have advocated. That people in U.S. custody could be held incommunicado for years without charges, and could be prosecuted or indefinitely detained on the basis of confessions extracted with torture is worse than a national disgrace. It is an assault on the foundations of the rule of law.

But Israel’s model for dealing with terrorism, while quite different from that of the U.S., is at least as shameful.

Long before the first suicide bombing by Palestinians in 1994, Israel had resorted to extrajudicial killings, home demolitions, deportations, curfews and other forms of collective punishment barred by international law.

Imprisonment has been one of the key strategies of Israeli control of the Palestinian population, and since 1967 more than half a million Palestinians were prosecuted through military courts that fall far short of international standards of due process.

Most convictions are based on coerced confessions, and for decades Israeli interrogation tactics have entailed the use of torture and ill-treatment. Tens of thousands more Palestinians were never prosecuted, but were instead held in administrative detention for months or years.

Israel had the ignominious distinction of being the first state to publicly and officially “legalize” torture. Adopting the recommendation of an Israeli commission of inquiry, in 1987 the government endorsed the euphemistically termed “moderate physical pressure,” and tens of thousands of Palestinians suffered the consequences.

In 1999 the Israeli High Court prohibited the routine use of “moderate physical pressure.” But the ruling left open a window for torture under “exceptional circumstances.”

These tactics, many of which have been used by American interrogators against foreign prisoners, include painful shackling, stress position abuse, protracted sleep deprivation, temperature and sound manipulation, and various forms of degrading and humiliating treatment. In an interview with three Israeli interrogators published in the Tel Aviv newspaper Ma’ariv in July 2004, one said the General Security Service “uses every manipulation possible, up to shaking and beating.”

About 10,000 Palestinians are imprisoned inside Israel and more than 800 are administratively detained. Their families in the West Bank and Gaza Strip are barred entry to Israel, so Palestinian detainees are, in that sense, as isolated as prisoners in Guantanamo. Just last week, the Israeli Supreme Court had to order one of the most notorious detention facilities to allow prisoners 24-hour access to toilets.

The Israeli military court system compares to the U.S. military tribunal system established for Guantanamo in ways that U.S. lawyers like Stadler and Chandler deplore.

In addition to the reliance on coercive interrogation to produce confessions and to justify continued detention, prisoners in Israeli custody can be held incommunicado for protracted periods, and lawyers face onerous obstacles in meeting with their clients.

http://www.counterpunch.org/hajjar10292007.html

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By Inherit The Wind, October 29, 2007 at 6:14 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Non Credo on 10/29 at 4:04 pm
(419 comments total)

Aretologist writes:

“If there is no collective alliance of Jews throughout the world, if they are not all working together with a common goal in mind then the remarkable power which they have achieved [etc.] ...”

Aretologist: there are many kinds of human group phenomena that are not conspiracies, yet are capable of one degree or another of collective, unified behavior. There are, for example, movements, tribes, ethnicites, religions, ideologies, cultures, “zeitgeists”, fads, etc.

Jews are not a conspiracy. They are more like a tribe or extended family with a hard-to-define religious component that includes even most “secular” Jews.

While there are many Jewish organizations, some of which do act at times in a conspiratorial, coordinated manner, for example in trying to affect US foreign policy, “the Jewish people” in general are not a conspiracy. Your attempt to characterize Jews in general as a vast conspiracy amounts to a crude and dehumanizing caricature.

*****************

Maybe the end of the world IS here!

I never thought I’d say this but…

Non-Credo: Well Said!

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By Howard, October 29, 2007 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

RE:  110298
  by Aretologist
===================
=================
Wow, I’m glad you found all that out about them Jews. Just in time, I say.  There’s a couple of them who I play cards with, and when I tell the others we’ll be sure to ban them from the game.

I also play tennis with one ‘em at the club;  but no more. The dirty dogs. And a few teachers at the local high school. I’ll let the school board know, eh? I’ll pass on to the board and the others your posting where you have it outlined how the Jews are( amongst other things ) conspiratorial and clever about getting our sympathies, etc., etc.; and overyplaying the Holocaust.

They’ll be awful glad to get the info.

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By Aretologist, October 29, 2007 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment

“To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.” George Orwell

If there is no collective alliance of Jews throughout the world, if they are not all working together with a common goal in mind then the remarkable power which they have achieved today not only in America but throughout the
world - in England, France, Australia, Canada, Italy, Germany etc. is not the result of a deliberate collaboration but of accident and chance.  And there are no AIPACS in any other foreign countries? Is this what the “normal” Jews
want us to believe?

And they also want us to believe that there is no conspiracy or ulterior purpose in the semi-annual year in and year out - constant distribution throughout the world of packaged “promotional” packets -  articles, photos, free DVD’s, movies pertaining to - publicizing - the Holocaust, Hitler, the Nazis? That all the magazines and television stations
worldwide in every country just happen to choose - on their own with no outside influences - to publish and broadcast these Holocaust documentaries? That the appearance of documentaries concerning the Holocaust in just about every country and on just about every televison station is normal and occurs all by itself with no outside deliberate promotion by the Jews?

And they want us to believe that if they are deliberately promoting the Holocaust worldwide they are doing it with no ulterior motive in mind?

They want us to believe that they are not using the Holocaust and the Nazis to condition everybody and to generate sympathy and pity?

Why do they do it? They are masters at the art of playing the victim and they use the Holocaust to gain pity and sympathy - on Capitol Hill and worldwide.

They do it because they are fully cognizant of the fact that a every human’s opinion or conviction is determined more by his heart - by his feelings and emotions - than by his intellect. So if they can get people to feel sorry, pity and empathy for them they will be more effective when it comes time to ask those people for something.

They do it because they also know that people who feel pity and empathy for them are more likely to overlook some of their faults and weaknesses - such as their continuous immoral crimes against humanity.

They cow opponents and manipulate - condition people - to give in psychologically and to their demands.

Manipulation of the human mind is one of the means by which the dominant elites - the highly organized Jewish minority - conform and condition the majority to their objective - to their control.

The ascendancy of any highly organized minority obeying a single impulse, working together towards a single collective goal, over an unsuspecting naive majority is achievable because the intelligence and determination of
the dedicated minority to control the majority is greater than the intelligence and determination of the majority to oppose them.

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By Tony Wicher, October 29, 2007 at 2:34 pm Link to this comment

RE #110268 by Howard on 10/29 at 9:59 am
(122 comments total)

“Well, I read the entire book by Mearsheimer & Walt. I found no even-handedness or objectivity. Just nonstop one-sidenness of their presentation, their gross exaggeration of the power of the lobby, their disregard for the consistently broad-based American public support for Israel, their omission of the very many interests that the U.S. has in a strong and safe Israel, and their overriding theme that policy-makers are controlled by the lobby. No matter how the authors protest, all of this adds up to an effort to delegitimize the work of pro-Israel activists.”
——————————————————————————
OK, Howard, you are entitled to your opinion of the book, which you claim to have read. Now how about proving you really did read it by backing up your opinion, so somebody will take you seriously? I challenge you to quote a single statement in the book you consider false or misleading (page number please) followed by a coherent statement on your part showing why it is wrong, unfair or unbalanced.

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By Howard, October 29, 2007 at 10:59 am Link to this comment

Well, I read the entire book by Mearsheimer & Walt. I found no even-handedness or objectivity. Just nonstop one-sidenness of their presentation, their gross exaggeration of the power of the lobby, their disregard for the consistently broad-based American public support for Israel, their omission of the very many interests that the U.S. has in a strong and safe Israel, and their overriding theme that policy-makers are controlled by the lobby. No matter how the authors protest, all of this adds up to an effort to delegitimize the work of pro-Israel activists.

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By Tony Wicher, October 29, 2007 at 9:37 am Link to this comment

Re #110190 by Non Credo on 10/28 at 11:08 pm

I’m completely on your side. ITW does refuse to read books that question his preconceived beliefs. He would not read The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” either, which I recommended. He has not addressed any of your fair and well-documented points. He just keeps repeating over and over his knee-jerk response that you are an anti-Semite. I expect him to address your excellent and fair post point by point in scholarly, objective fashion. From now on I will specifically defend you against his unfair smears.

Still, I like ITW. Unlike Lefty, he does not sound like a fanatical and hate-filled Zionist, just like someone that is deeply concerned about rising anti-Semitism in this country.

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By Howard, October 29, 2007 at 4:24 am Link to this comment

Of course, the fact that there is a lobby made up of Americans who believe that U.S. interests are best served by a strong alliance with Israel is obvious and non-controversial.  The America Israel Public Affairs Committee (Aipac) bills itself as “America’s Pro-Israel Lobby.” It is registered as a domestic lobby, is supported by donations from over 100,000 individual members, and receives no financial backing from Isrel or any other foreign entity.

There is nothing unusual about this.  Spend ten minutes on Google and you can easily find similar advocacy groups that represent the interests of Irish Ameicans, Mexican Americans, Indian Americans, Italian Americans, and practically every other imaginable ethnic and national group in the United States. Only the American lobby for Israel seems to be subject to such intense critical scrutiny and even demonization by peopole like Mearsheimer and Walt.
In order to justify their accusations, Mearsheimer and Walt deliberately distort realities.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 29, 2007 at 4:13 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Non Credo on 10/28 at 11:08 pm
(413 comments total)

.... ITW simply asserted, contrary to fact and without any evidence offered, that he “knew” that I was getting my material from neo-Nazi websites.  That is an outright lie, a blatant and unfounded ad hominem attack - characteristic of the tiresome and reflexive fanatic that ITW is.

*******************

Non-Credo, I already caught you in a flat-out documented lie in Bill Clinton thread.  You posted that Bill Clinton said “I dare you”.  I called you on it and you insisted you posted no such thing, that it was “How Dare You?” (which is what Clinton said).  Yet there are the posts, for all to see, of you mis-quoting Clinton as saying “I dare you”, then lying about it later.

It’s there for everyone to see—they can corroborate it for themselves, yet you try to stand here in phony moral outrage and accuse me of lying.

M&W;‘s sources ARE suspect, as are yours—and their conclusions from those sources are stretched beyond rational inference.  Read anything by Ann Coultergeist and you’ll see the same technique.

Your “explanation” of how the Saudis allowed the bases to benefit Israel is laughable—as is M&W;‘s. I raised several points—you ignored them to “explain” nonsense.

Logic is logic. National Security needs of any and every nation are pretty damn obvious, and virtually all nations, regardless of their leaders live by them.  Certainly both Saudi Arabia and Israel do.

It is only in the United States since President Mussolini seized power that our path has deviated from sane foreign relations—and lunatics like you and M&W;ascribe it to the magical diabolical influence of Jews and Israel rather than where the blame belongs: On arrogant ignorant corrupt imperialist fascists like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzo, and my personal favorite for Most Dispicable Bushie: Stephen J. Hadley.

It is the Hadley doctrine that has ambushed and sabotaged EVERY chance to make peace and normalize relations with Iran since they offered us help against the Taliban and were rejected.  It has NOTHING to do with Israel.  Any SANE review of both Israeli and Iranian national security needs will conclude that they are natural ALLIES.

Both face antagonistic neighbors who a) Speak a different language—Arabic (rather than Hebrew or Farsi), b) Have shown themselves to be VERY intolerant of other cultures (referring to the Arab nations between Israel and Iran, not others necessarily) c) have a different religion: Sunni Islam versus Judaism or Shi’ia Islam. d) Consider both religions, Judaism and Shi’ia Islam to be heretical (which is curious because Mohammed did not consider Judaism or Christianity heretical—they are “People of the Scripture”).

Yet Bush has focused all our national security efforts on Iran—even now Cheney is slathering and drooling saying “Let’s bomb ‘em” and Rice is saying “We need to negotiate—but on Stephen Hadley’s terms” (which mean total capitulation by Iran).  Yeah the asshole is frog-marching us to WWIII—and you, like all the neo-nazis, blame Israel, who must be TERRIFIED that this war will begin.

It’s not coincidence that the current Chairman of the JCS is an admiral—the Iranian attack will be carrier-based, not land-based.

If you have ANY shred of patriotism, put the blame for the coming war with Iran where it belongs—totally and solely on the Bush White House.

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By weather, October 29, 2007 at 2:18 am Link to this comment

Poor lefty, he made the turn well before the curve.

Go ahead lefty and cast your aspertion that those who take issue w/the contrived infection that is Israel are somehow Islamic and ‘imposters’. You’re more then just a buffoon at the end of a keyboard, for your pathology requires a more serious kind reply;pls. seek professional help, you’re not well.

Even if I were the Napolean Solo of Islam, the very fact that I’d feel the need to populate this board w/my shallow remarks drills down to the firm and irrevocable truth that you hate most to contemplate:before Israel, Islam was of little concern to America. eom

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By Tony Wicher, October 28, 2007 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

Re #110169 by Lefty on 10/28 at 7:38 pm

You know something, Lefty? I like ITW. He’s my kind of Jew. But you, you are an insane Zionist. Go back to your padded cell.

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By Tony Wicher, October 28, 2007 at 9:15 pm Link to this comment

Re #110154 by Inherit The Wind on 10/28 at 5:44 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

BenedictArnold on 10/28 at 4:24 pm
(257 comments total)

I don’t want my country to give any more guns or money to Israel, that arguement is easier to make every day with people like you against me.

I don’t know WHAT country you come from but it sure sounds like nazi Germany.

Me, I’m from the United States of America, that set the standard for freedom of speech, thought and religion and celebrates diversity, both here and abroad.  It doesn’t believe in bigotry or blaming one ethnic group for all its problems. That’s MY country.

I have no idea what your country is, but you’re not going to make MY country, the USA, into your country—some nazi Germany clone.”
——————————————————————————
I really love you guys. Guess what, I think we’re all good patriotic Americans at heart. We all value the great things about this country like freedom for one, two and three. (I would say home brewed hash oil comes in fourth, but that’s my personal predilection). We are all fighting against the forces of tyranny. The problem is that hard to see is the dark side of the Force (as Yoda would say). It is difficult to unite against this somehow shadowy threat or threats to our freedom. The Dark Lords have a magic cloaking device which misdirects our attention. ITW sees the danger of anti-Semitism rising and creating a situation in the United States very analogous to Nazi Germany 1930’s. I absolutely agree with him. What was the strategy of the Nazis? It was to direct the attention of the German people against “the Jews” while proceeding to rape, rob and pillage, today Deutschland, tomorrow das Welt. Well, we already have similar Nazis running the country right now. But as long as the people are not completely infected with anti-Semitism, there is some hope of kicking them out before they destroy civilization, if that is what you politely want to call it. These Nazis are not spreading Jewish anti-
Semitism. They are spreading Islamophobia instead. It works the same way. Give people an image to fear, to distract their attention, start wars, rape, loot and pillage.

The Dark Lords are cunning and devious. Today Islamophobia serves their purposes; but Jewish anti-Semitism is making a big comeback, and tomorrow they may turn it to their advantage. What will happen when all hell breaks loose after they bomb Iran? Israel will be blamed by a lot of Americans. That will suit these Nazis just fine too, like it did in Germany. Jewish Anti-Semitism will continue to grow. Jewish Americans will be isolated. Zionists will be happy, because they think this will eventually force them to move to Israel. They want to be isolated. That is their insane and ultimately self-destructive program. They don’t really mind (Jewish)anti-Semitism, because after all that is what justifies Zionism, and the more it is magnified, even by calling Jimmy Carter and Desmond Tutu anti-Semites, the better they like it.

I could go on, but I’m tired writing. What do you freaks have to say?

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By Howard, October 28, 2007 at 8:40 pm Link to this comment

To the extent that American foreign policy is pro-Israel, the “Israel Lobby” has little to do with it. The vast majority of American support Israel and see the Arabs as the real cause of the Middle East conflict and as the main source for terrorism in the world. There is no question that American interests and Israeli interests very often overlap. In spite of decades of propagandizing by the anti-Israel Lobby and its captive media outlets, most Americans understand that Israel is the victim of Arab aggression and not the other way around, and that Israel is the only country in the Middle East where human rights, including the human rights of Arabs, are protected in a democratic regime. Moreover, few Americans doubt since 9-11 that Arab terrorism and Islamofascism are the main threats today to American and world security. Americans on 9-11 experienced what Israeli Jews have been experiencing since the 1920s. This has made it far easier for most Americans to understand, identify with, and appreciate Israel’s own defense needs regarding that same terror.

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By Tony Wicher, October 28, 2007 at 7:30 pm Link to this comment

Re #110145 by Howard on 10/28 at 4:10 pm

I do blame our leaders, Bush and Cheney, who are totally corrupt bloodthirsty bastards with their own self-serving agendas that are not set by Israel or Zionists or Jews. But they do find Zionist Israel to be a wonderful ally in the accomplishment of the aforesaid bloody and self-seeking ends.

As to the Middle East being the cradle of “Islamofascism”, it is a bogus term invented just a few years ago by neocons and Zionists. There is a real word behind it, however: Islamophobia. You know what that means, Howard? It means irrational fear of Islam. You want to know who practically invented it? Zionism. And you know what it is? It is a form of anti-Semitism. Arabs are Semites too. So what you are doing is spreading anti-Semitism, and what you sow, you shall also reap.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 28, 2007 at 6:44 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

BenedictArnold on 10/28 at 4:24 pm
(257 comments total)

I don’t want my country to give any more guns or money to Israel, that arguement is easier to make every day with people like you against me.

I don’t know WHAT country you come from but it sure sounds like nazi Germany.

Me, I’m from the United States of America, that set the standard for freedom of speech, thought and religion and celebrates diversity, both here and abroad.  It doesn’t believe in bigotry or blaming one ethnic group for all its problems. That’s MY country.

I have no idea what your country is, but you’re not going to make MY country, the USA,  into your country—some nazi Germany clone.

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By PatrickHenry, October 28, 2007 at 5:24 pm Link to this comment

#110077 by Inherit The Windbag

Every time someone on this and other blogs underscores a point about theocratic Israel, AIPAC and the zionist jews and christians who unconditionally support them, you come out from under your rock.

You spew your hate filled B.S. rhetoric, which is usually way off the mark, in short you epitomize what you accuse the other posters here to be, directly insulting people you don’t agree with, mocking information they present while never presenting any of your own.

I don’t want my country to give any more guns or money to Israel, that arguement is easier to make every day with people like you against me.

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By Howard, October 28, 2007 at 5:10 pm Link to this comment

Of course some pundits have to blame somebody for going into Iraq. Let us see now.  Let’s make it Israel in case it doesn’t work out. Why would we blame our leaders ?  Jeez, let us blame Israel for the Vietnam war also.  and WW II.  and the American Civil war.  Makes it easier, eh?

Israel is the major strategic asset of the United States in an area of the world that is the cradle of Islamo-fascism, which is dominated by tyrants and permeated by religious obscurantism and shows almost total disregard for human rights. During the decades-long Cold War, Israel was America’s indispensable rampart against the inroads of the Soviet Union. It is now the bulwark against the aggressive intentions of Iran. During Desert Storm, Israel provided invaluable intelligence, an umbrella of air cover for military cargo, and had personnel planted in the Iraqi deserts to pick up downed American pilots.

Gen. George Keagan, former head of U.S. Air Force Intelligence, stated publicly that “Israel is worth five CIAs,” with regard to intelligence passed to our country. He also stated that the yearly $1.8 billion that Israel received in military assistance was worth $50 to $60 billion in intelligence, R&D;savings, and Soviet weapons systems captured and transferred to the Pentagon. In contrast to our commitments in Korea, Japan, Germany, and other parts, not a single American serviceperson needs to be stationed in Israel. Considering that the cost of one serviceperson per year — including backup and infrastructure — is estimated to be about $200,000, and assuming a minimum contingent of 25,000 troops, the cost savings to the United States on that score alone is on the order of $5 billion a year.

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By YIKES, October 28, 2007 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment

I came to understand a book.  I leave with an understanding of intimidaton.  Your intelligent comments are appreciated and have been digested.
I leave now to write my congressmen.

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By Tony Wicher, October 28, 2007 at 2:38 pm Link to this comment

Re #110093 by Non Credo on 10/28 at 9:29 am
“Furthermore, an accurate assessment of our expenditures for Israel ought to include the hundreds of billions we’re spending on the Iraq war, which was for them. And we are currently enduring a huge surge in oil prices, because of the fact that we are recklessly threatening Iran with war - for Israel’s benefit and no one else’s. You can add the cost of the Arab oil embargo of the 1970s, which was a price we paid for supporting Israel also. There are many, many additional costs which the US pays for supporting this worse-than-useless “ally”.
——————————————————————————
NC,

I totally agree with you that Israel is a burden, an albatross, not an ally - unless, of course, you are a U.S. imperialist bent on hegemony over the whole Middle East. Then Israel is a great ally. Not only do they have the fourth most powerful army in the world and nuclear weapons, but the idea of defending our “best friend in the world” Israel can be used as a pretext to dupe the American people into supporting a policy of imperialism and war. Pulling the wool over the eyes of the American people is the most important function they serve in the eyes of the imperialists, much more important than their military prowess.

The only place I disagree with you is where you say that we went to war in Iraq only for their benefit. The whole U.S. military-industrial complex also benefitted. Israel by itself would not have been enough to get us into the Iraq war, although it may well be that without Israel we would not be in it. There is no doubt that Israel played a big part in pushing us over the edge - as they are doing right now with Iran. The American people may well blame the disastrous consequences of this widening war on Israel, and we will see anti-Semitism growiing in this country like a metastasizing cancer.

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By Howard, October 28, 2007 at 8:48 am Link to this comment

Israel is indeed a major recipient of U.S. aid. Israel receives yearly $1.8 billion in military aid and $1.2 billion in economic aid, a substantial portion of our yearly aid budget. Almost all of the military aid is spent in the United States, making Israel one of the major customers of the U.S. defense industry. Virtually all of the economic assistance goes for repayment of debt to the United States, incurred from military purchases dating back many years.

America’s staunchest ally. A good case can be made that aid to Israel, certainly the military portion, should be part of the United States defense budget, rather than of the aid budget because Israel is, next only perhaps to Britain, by far the most important ally of the United States. Virtually without exception, Israel’s government and its people agree with and support the foreign policy objectives of the United States. In the United Nations, Israel’s votes coincide with those of the United States over 90% of the time. The Arabs and other Moslem countries, virtually all of them recipients of American largess, almost reflexively vote against the United States in most instances.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 28, 2007 at 8:37 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony,
You are wrong. Aretologist, Non-Credo, Robert, PatrickHenry and Weather are complete total anti-semites.

This is shown repeatedly because they deliberately use false “facts” that are TOTALLY unsupported as the basis for their arguments.

They repeatedly ascribe to Israel policies that are evil, nefarious, and just vile, TOTALLY ignoring the obvious facts that these actions would be totally AGAINST Israel’s best interests.  They also ascribe to Israel acts that are IMPOSSIBLE—such as US bases in Saudi Arabia, which are there because the Saudi Royal government wanted them there.

They come up with continual pseudo-intellectual arguments, again based on myth, fantasy and pure lies solely to justify whipping up anger against Jews.

They constantly ignore inconvenient facts and pretend they don’t exist or were made up by “Zionist media”.  They even go so far as to hint that Germany wasn’t wrong in its treatment of Jews in the 30’s and 40’s.

In fact, anyone who has studied the rise of biological anti-semitism in greater Germany from the 1860’s to 1945 will see that the characters you believe are “mild” anti-semites due to Israel’s actions are in fact completely in parallel and harmony with those biological racists of the late 19th century.

(Biological Racism, which Hitler ascribed to, was based on that mis-interpretation of evolution, Social Darwinism, and divided Humanity into genetically different “races”. Naturally the “Aryan” race was the most advanced—despite the fact that Persians are the TRUE Aryans and Germans were living in caves with skins when the Persians were building cities.  Other races were destined to serve the Aryan race, but the Jewish race was fundamentally evil, genetically twisted and mis-begotten and ultimately, for the genetic good of the world, needed to be made extinct.  Of course there is and never has been any genetic evidence of this but watch the clowns—they hint at it from time to time…)

There’s no point in argument..They KNOW Jews are evil and simply wait for ANY incident that proves it—and ignore those events and actions that disprove it.

No one who has ever studied Foreign Relations seriously would ascribe such insane actions to ANY nation. Even Saddam Hussein and Qaddaffi would not go that far, knowing it would bring disaster.  Yet these clowns persist in their assertion that Israel, which has a VERY well respected and feared intelligence service, Mossad, would engage in those insane acts.  Is Mossad ruthless? undoubtedly. Vicious? At times I’m sure it is.  Stupid? I find that inconceivable.

Yet the clowns believe Mossad will attack its allies like a rabid pit-bull with no sense at all.  Why? All I can guess, is like Hitler’s antecedents, they believe that Jews have a genetic twist to act that way.  Curious, since for 1900 years, since Masada, Jews have wandered the world as meek, quiet folk just trying to survive, and being tortured, tormented and murdered cyclically.

But logic and bigotry are incompatible. If you have one, you cannot have the other.

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By Robert, October 28, 2007 at 7:03 am Link to this comment

Tony, #109966 is Amen. 
——

The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers

True Lies About U.S. Aid to Israel

By Richard H. Curtiss

“For many years the American media said that “Israel receives $1.8 billion in military aid” or that “Israel receives $1.2 billion in economic aid.” Both statements were true, but since they were never combined to give us the complete total of annual U.S. aid to Israel, they also were lies—true lies.

Recently Americans have begun to read and hear that “Israel receives $3 billion in annual U.S. foreign aid.” That’s true. But it’s still a lie. The problem is that in fiscal 1997 alone, Israel received from a variety of other U.S. federal budgets at least $525.8 million above and beyond its $3 billion from the foreign aid budget, and yet another $2 billion in federal loan guarantees. So the complete total of U.S. grants and loan guarantees to Israel for fiscal 1997 was $5,525,800,000.

One can truthfully blame the mainstream media for never digging out these figures for themselves, because none ever have. They were compiled by the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs. But the mainstream media certainly are not alone. Although Congress authorizes America’s foreign aid total, the fact that more than a third of it goes to a country smaller in both area and population than Hong Kong probably never has been mentioned on the floor of the Senate or House. Yet it’s been going on for more than a generation.”

“Probably the only members of Congress who even suspect the full total of U.S. funds received by Israel each year are the privileged few committee members who actually mark it up. And almost all members of the concerned committees are Jewish, have taken huge campaign donations orchestrated by Israel’s Washington, DC lobby, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), or both. These congressional committee members are paid to act, not talk. So they do and they don’t.”

“AIPAC, in turn, can draw upon the resources of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, a roof group set up solely to coordinate the efforts of some 52 national Jewish organizations on behalf of Israel.”

“Among them are Hadassah, the Zionist women’s organization, which organizes a steady stream of American Jewish visitors to Israel; the American Jewish Congress, which mobilizes support for Israel among members of the traditionally left-of-center Jewish mainstream; and the American Jewish Committee, which plays the same role within the growing middle-of-the-road and right-of-center Jewish community.”

“Perhaps the most controversial of these groups is B’nai B’rith’s Anti-Defamation League. Its original highly commendable purpose was to protect the civil rights of American Jews. Over the past generation, however, the ADL has regressed into a conspiratorial and, with a $45 million budget, extremely well-funded hate group.”


“The ADL infiltrators took notes of the names and remarks of speakers and members of audiences at programs organized by such groups. ADL agents even recorded the license plates of persons attending such programs and then suborned corrupt motor vehicles department employees or renegade police officers to identify the owners.”

“Not surprisingly, a defecting employee revealed in an article he published in the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs that AIPAC, too, has such “enemies” files. They are compiled for use by pro-Israel journalists like Steven Emerson and other so-called “terrorism experts,” and also by professional, academic or journalistic rivals of the persons described for use in black-listing, defaming, or denouncing them. What is never revealed is that AIPAC’s “opposition research” department, under the supervision of Michael Lewis, son of famed Princeton University Orientalist Bernard Lewis, is the source of this defamatory material.”
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/1297/9712043.html

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By Howard, October 28, 2007 at 5:41 am Link to this comment

Re:  110021
  by Tony

“..... The Israel lobby plays by the same rules as the rest of them. They are just very good at it. But their influence is pernicious. They are dragging us into war in the Middle East to support a failing and dying ideology - Zionism. “
===============================================
======================================

Its a myth that the US government is being dragged by anyone or any state or any lobby into a war in the Middle East.  Our govermnent officials are a little brighter than that.  They can make their own decisions which if wrong will be a mistake that   that they can admit to or citizens can scream about; but to blame others for those decision will not let us succeed in vry much. For gov’ts or ourselves personally.

Another myth is to characterize Zionism so pernnicously. Its a nationalistic movement over 150 years old which simply wanted a return and establisment for the Jewish people. It happened.  Israel has a right to exist.

And some in the world cannot get over it.

The questioning by the Moslems of Israel’s right to exist is particularly strange in view of Israel apparently being the major preoccupation of all Arab countries and of most non-Arab Moslem nations, Iran prominently among them. And how can the Arabs possibly question Israel’s existence since they have been involved with Israel in at least five major wars, in all of which they were decisively defeated. Nobody questions that if results had been reversed in any of these encounters, Israel would indeed have ceased to exist and most of its inhabitants killed.

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By Aretologist, October 28, 2007 at 3:54 am Link to this comment

“The (French) Republic has governed in the interest of the Jews… It is.. The Republic which by raising Jewish power to new heights…has stirred up wishes for revenge.”  Arthur Mayer

In 1794 the French philosopher-mathematician Condorcet, looked around him, saw what was occuring and conjectured that because of the gullibility and feeblemindedness of the vast majority of the French people, a cunning minority, working together would be able to seduce and indoctrinate the French public at will and create an elite oligarchy behind a ‘‘democratic smokescreen.’’

When Senator William Fulbright declared in 1972 that “the Israelis control politics in Congress and in the Senate,” said that America was “subservient to Israel” what perspicacious Condorcet had predicted 200 years ago was reality.

Pondering the future in 1973 Senator Fulbright saw little hope that America’s Congress would effectively challenge the Israeli lobby:

“It’s suicide for politicians to oppose AIPAC.”

The ascendancy of any highly organized highly educated minority obeying a single impulse and thus all working together towards a collective goal over a an uneducated, mostly feeble minded majority is feasible and possible since the intelligence and loyalty and self-esteem of the anointed minority is greater.

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By Tony Wicher, October 27, 2007 at 9:05 pm Link to this comment

Re #110014 by Howard on 10/27 at 6:26 pm

“Yes, it’s true that the pro-Israel lobby is a powerful one on Capitol Hill and in the White House. Does it face no strong opposition? That’ll
be the day!”

Howard

I see nothing to disagree with here; I think M & W would say the same. The Israel lobby is like every other interest group. What about the oil company lobby and the defense contractor lobby, which have equally pernicious effects on U.S. foreign policy? What about the big pharma lobby, the medical insurance lobby, the “war on drugs” lobby, the prison industry lobby and so many more, all of which push their own interests without regard to the interest of the American people as a whole, all bribing and pressuring lawmakers to make bad decisions against the interests of the people? The Israel lobby plays by the same rules as the rest of them. They are just very good at it. But their influence is pernicious. They are dragging us into war in the Middle East to support a failing and dying ideology - Zionism.

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By PatrickHenry, October 27, 2007 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment

Amen Tony.

Howard, you are confusing domestic policy with foreign policy.  AARP represents Americans, AIPAC represents Israeli’s.

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By Howard, October 27, 2007 at 7:26 pm Link to this comment

I’ve finished reading this book by Mearsheimer and Walt but its still a big myth that powerful lobbies-including the Israel Lobby-have virtually unchallenged power to dictate public policies to their liking, often to the detriment of the national interest.

Like most lobby groups in the United States, the Jewish American lobby organizations face constant conflict with other groups that generally favor opposing policies. Though journalists and interested parties sometimes like to depict particular lobbying groups as “all-powerfull” or “unstoppable,” there really is no such thing as a lobby that always gets its way—which is a good thing for America’s pluralistic democracy. It’s true of the Israel lobby, just as it’s true of every other lobby that does business in Washington.

Just consider some of the groups that are held up as examples of vast power in Washington.

Many call the American Association of Retired Persons (AARP),with its 5O million members and its vast war chest, the most powerful lobby in America. And in recent years we’ve seen the influence of
AARP in its (so-far) successful battle to defend traditional Social Security against attempts to privatize the plan. Does this mean AARP is all-
powerful or that it is unopposed? Not at all. While AARP defends public Social Security, the vast and wealthy financial industry, representing Wall Street firms, brokerage houses, commercial banks, and
insurance companies, would like to see Social Security privatized,thereby creating millions of private investment accounts for them to
manage.

What about the teachers’ unions, like the National Education Association? In their battles to defend public schools against funding cuts, voucher systems, and charter schools, they are opposed by tax-payer groups such as the National Taxpayers’ Union, conservative and libertarian think tanks and lobby groups, and private companies like
the Edison Schools that are looking for the big contracts that privatization could bring.

Then there’s the National Rifle Association (NRA), which has won a reputation for enormous clout due to its successfuJ battles against gun control. But the NRA doesn’t have the field all to itself. It must battle against groups that favor gun control, including the powerful lobbies on behalf of police and correctional officers, crime victims,and citizens groups.

Each of these powerful lobby groups faces strong countervailing opposition. And the same is true of the much-vaunted Israel lobby.

Suppose a new, strongly pro-Israel administration were to promulgate a new policy sharply curtailing arms sales to Arab countries that potentially threaten Israel. Do you imagine that the U.S. companies that profit from these and other lucrative weapons contracts would roll over quietly? Not very likely.

Yes, it’s true that the pro-Israel lobby is a powerful one on Capitol Hill and in the White House. Does it face no strong opposition? That’ll
be the day!

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By Tony Wicher, October 27, 2007 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

Re #109973 by Non Credo on 10/27 at 12:40 pm
(406 comments total)

“Tony, you emphasize, rightly, the distinction between Zionists and Jews in general. But the group that frustrates me to the brink of madness is the Jews like Lefty - the Jews who passionately think of themselves as liberal, but are utter, raving tribalists when it comes to Israel and Arabs. It’s this group that makes it possible for the Democratic party - which is supposed to be the home of the liberal opposition to the right-wingers of the south and west embodied by Bush and Cheney - to be dragged passively along into these wars for Israel.”
—————————————————————————
NC,
They drive me crazy too. They have people on every Democratic presidential candidate’s campaign staff at the highest level pushing for uncritical support of Israel. They have Hillary Clinton in their pocket. Why do you suppose she voted for Kyl-Lieberman? She will regret that vote when Bush bombs Iran. We anti-war Democrats will not forgive her. I have been fighting them tooth and nail inside the Obama campaign, with some success, I think. The Lobby is concentrating all their support on Clinton. Obama’s best chance to win is to call her out on her Israel Lobby connections and say that uncritical support for Israel is bad for the United States. Let them call him anti-Semitic. He should stand proudly with Jimmy Carter and Desmond Tutu, and show that he is a man of principle and not another cowardly Democrat. Then if Bush does attack Iran, no anti-war Democrat will vote for her, and he will get the nomination.

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By weather, October 27, 2007 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

Israel wins yet another Academy Award.

This one for best dramatic performance of feeling sorry for themselves at the expense of others.

A role Israel has truly perfected.

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By Howard, October 27, 2007 at 1:36 pm Link to this comment

RE:  #1099969
==================
=======

Ah, Weather,
  How did you find out?  I mean about that little tiny Israel being the cause of all the problems mankind has. And instigator of all the wars the world has seen.

  Are they powerful or what ?  Man, how did you discover this?  Such hate on your part.
  Myself, I hope they get stronger. Just to tick you off.

  The more I read and meet people who have been to Israel it seems to be just the opposite of the ideas you just espoused here!

Israel and those who attack it are not moral equals. Israel is, like the United States, a “mixed economy,” which retains a significant respect for individual rights. Its citizens, whatever their race or religion, enjoy many freedoms, including freedom of thought and speech, and the right to own property. The purpose of Israel’s military is only self-defense: to protect its citizens from aggressors. Consequently, Israel has a moral right to exist.

Those attacking Israel, by contrast, are terrorist organizations, dictatorships and theocracies, which deliberately violate the rights of their own subjects. Even if these organizations and regimes had never initiated force against Israel, they still would have no moral right to exist.

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By weather, October 27, 2007 at 12:45 pm Link to this comment

Israel is a self-inflicted wound.
No friends, just resentments, acrimony, distrust and hate. Good job Israel and just think, you’ve absolutely no one to thank but yourselves.

While this is a tragic by-product of Israel’s selfish pathology, its infected us now too - still stuck in those puckyballs of denial? Just look around. All this exhausting diatribe back&forth;is just that.
Israel:always a part of the problem, never the solution.

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By Tony Wicher, October 27, 2007 at 12:27 pm Link to this comment

Re #109619 by Inherit The Wind on 10/25 at 5:24 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“Meanwhile, 3 of the anti-Semite juggernaut ALL rushed in to stick together and call me a lot of nasty names—like I care. Facts? Nary a one—but lots of what they think are insults.  We got Robert-Abu repeating himself (like a really stinky fart), Non-Credible (living up to his real name) and BenedictArnold showing yet again he doesn’t know ANYTHING about Patrick Henry.

Three tin-foil-hat-neo-nazi-loonies for the price of one. That’s some kind of bargain, but I’m a Jew—I’m SUPPOSED to like bargains, right?”
—————————————————————————
Heh, heh. ITW, you’re funny. Here’s my diagnosis: I would not call any of these three gentlemen hard-core anti-Semites. I would say that anti-Semitism is a pervasive social disease. Advanced cases acquired early in life may be incurable, but it is also possible to have acquired a touch of it later on in life, a mild case that can be corrected. Many people in United States who were never the least bit anti-Semitic are starting to get that way because of the behavior of Israel and the Israel lobby over the past forty years. I would say that PH, NC and Robert belong to the latter category. Their justifiable anger at Israel, Zionism, the violation of Palestinian human rights and the political correctness enforced by the Lobby spills over into resentment of Jews. The way I try to effect a cure is to make the strongest possible distinction between the concept of Jews as an ethnic group, and that of Israel and Zionism, the project of a “Jewish state” in the Holy Land. Jews both inside and outside Israel must finally realize that this concept has to be repudiated. Zionism’s claim to speak for Jews is damaging them. Organizations like the ADL are supposed to be defending the civil rights of Jews in this country, not acting as flacks for Israel. It is up to progressive Jews more than anyone else to lead in speaking out. So what about it, ITW, PH, NC and Robert? Can I get an amen?

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By Aretologist, October 27, 2007 at 12:25 pm Link to this comment

Mearsheimer and Walt’s book is admirable but it won’t change anything - maybe makes things worse.

Even though the demeanor of the authors resembles that of deferential “friends” petitioning and offering advise they believe is good for their “king”  - the Jews will consider the book an “attack.”

For every book or article that is published that “attacks” the “self-hating” Jews - such as Mearsheimer’s and Walt’s book, Finkelstein’s books, (even comments such as this one) multitudes of “normal” Jews - all working together with the same goal in mind -  will emerge to denigrate and try to censure the books.

Jews will emerge to cover up comments made by those of us who don’t enjoy and who don’t think it is ethical to be subservient Jews and to Israel.

Whenever the Jews are “attacked and threatened” today - they attack back - with much more ammo that was launched at them - as Lebanon illustrates.

Working along with Israel’s PR Representative in the U.S. - America’s mass media - AIPAC and all the other
Jewish groups worldwide will increase tremendously their “subtle” worldwide indoctrination methods.

The free gifts of Jews - all the Nazi, Hitler, holocaust propganda - the packaged articles for all the foreign magazines (already written in the language of the particular country along with photographs) that are being sent today at taxpayers expense around the world to all the major newspapers and magazines in all the major countries of the world will increase - deepen and worsen.

The organized Jew’s brainwashing, conditioning propaganda is imperceptible to most gentiles but it “obvious” to anyone knowledgeable and not “hopelessly unconscious” i.e., to most Jews.

Why do the Jews distribute all this “historical information” where ever they can? Historical documentaries that pertain to or remind their viewers of the Holocaust, Hitler, the Nazi’s and all the poor innocent Jews and nothing else?

For pity.  As Leonard Doob points out:

“People are moved by pity and hence anyone who can elicit this response and direct it toward himself has
increased his chances of being ‘effective.”             

And they do it because, as D H Lawrence pointed out -“The public is feeble minded - like an idiot - whose feelings can be diddled into existence by cunning exploiters.”

And why do the Jews introduce their conditioning propaganda in every mass media medium possible - television, books, magazines, movies, etc?

Edward Bernays, the father of Public Relations (and Sigmund Freud’s brilliant nephew) explains why:

“Emphasis by repetition gains acceptance for an idea, particularly if the repetition comes from different sources.”

As they always do,  the Jews will take advantage of any negative publicity that attacks them and consider it a just reason to increase their collective brainwashing and conditioning practices worldwide -so in the end they will be better off
after they are attacked. So in the end anyone who critices them helps them. So I guess it is best for us keep our mouths shut and quit bellyaching about them.

This is why I think a fat lady from Israel should have come and sung to a Joint Session of Congress (and to the UN General Assembly)  a long time ago.

I think it’s time for us to officially accept and recognize uncorrupted reality. The Jews are in control and there isn’t anything anyone can do about it.

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By Howard, October 27, 2007 at 9:45 am Link to this comment

WEATHER looks for trouble w/a flashlight.

If its sneaky, snotty, selfish, remarkably arrogant and terribly deceitful? - Its WEATHER, Earth’s little shop of horrors.
and what’s really, truly tragic, it Never had to get like this. Slide up and take a bow WEATHER, you must be proud

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By weather, October 27, 2007 at 8:50 am Link to this comment

Israel looks for trouble w/a flashlight.

If its sneaky, snotty, selfish, remarkably arrogant and terribly deceitful? - Its Israel, Earth’s little shop of horrors.
and what’s really, truly tragic, it Never had to get like this. Slide up and take a bow Israel, you must be proud?

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By Howard, October 27, 2007 at 4:59 am Link to this comment

RE:  109825
  by Non Credo

What Americans don’t know: the Kurdish terrorists assaulting Turkey with US and Israeli support are worse than Hizbollah.

===================================
=====================
Israel could care less, Turkey is one country that is not opposed to Israel’s existence and could be almost called friendly.  And the U.S. is stunned and ticked off by the PPk’s actions which muddies the water dangerously….since we use Turkey for a nearby staging base for planes and materials for Iraq War. And the Kurdish leadership in the North is mainly at fault for not reigning in this highly active PPK, since the Kurds have made great strides within Iraq at this time.
  And then also to say that the PPK is worse than Hezbollah, which has undermined horribly an existing government in Lebanon for starters, and started a War with Israel, et al;  why, it stretches and defies the imagination. Just an insane comment.

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By PatrickHenry, October 26, 2007 at 2:44 pm Link to this comment

Wrong Howard, Israel is a theocracy.

The problem they have is the “right of return” of jewish american zionists.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/884358.html

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By Howard, October 26, 2007 at 1:54 pm Link to this comment

RE:  109756
by Robert
“......Your presence is a danger to his zionist ideology and his beloved Apartheid Israel”
=================================
==========================
Apartheid?  Israel is a democracy in which Arabs vote !

The AVOWED PURPOSES of South Africa’s apartheid system were to etablish permanent rule by whites of European descent over native blacks; to exploit nonwhite peoples as a source of cheap forced labor; and to prevent them from ever having a say in the governance of their own country.
  None of thexe purposes goes on in Israel OR in the West Bank today.  The Jews of Israel don’twant to rule the Pal’s—they wnat to live apart from them, in a country of their own, where Jews are a majority and Jewish culture and religion are taken as the norm.
  The Jews have no desire to exploit the Palestinains as a work force; in fact, one of the most bitter complaints of many Palestinians concerns the difficulty they experience in applying for well-paying jobs in Israel and traveling to workplaces there.
  In the hospitals in Israel, the surgeons are both Jewish and Arab, the same with anaesthetists; the doctors and nurses who look after people are Jews and Arabs. Jews and Arabs share meals in restaruants and travel on the same trains, buses and taxis, and visit each other’s homes.
  Could any of this possibly happen under apartheid?  Of course not.

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By Robert, October 26, 2007 at 11:55 am Link to this comment

Hey ya’ll! Who left the gate to “jackass/mule” stall open?

The jackass fanatic zionist, “lefty=ephraim/pesach”, is on the loose again…he ventured out of his stall and is still plopping that same ole jackass manure.

Palestinian/Arab children…watch out for this deranged and sadistic “zionist terrorist”. He is out there to sniff out your last breath. Your presence is a danger to his zionist ideology and his beloved Apartheid Israel.

Lefty=ephraim/pesach…someone is going to harness your deranged zionist head and put a mangled bit into that mouth of yours…HeeHaw!

You and that ITZW/Lilmamzer…belong in the same manure filled stall.

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By Robert, October 26, 2007 at 9:50 am Link to this comment

#109667 by Howard on 10/26 at 3:09 am
(110 comments total)

Well well. Norman Finkelstein is an avowed Holocaust denier and and an avowed anti-Israel writer.
===============================================

Heckler-Howard…anyone who would that kind of statement/accusation about Norman Finkelstein must be a hardcore zionist. You must be the janitor for your vicious zionist, Dershowitz.

Heckler-Howard…its garbage in… garbage out for your role in the Dershowitz zionist propaganda machine!

I don’t need to see your “garbage out!

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By Howard, October 26, 2007 at 4:09 am Link to this comment

RE: 109639 by Robert

More on the Oxford Union

Intellectual terrorism

For the sake of free speech, British organisations should confront pro-Israel bullies, not appease them….......about the decision you took to remove Professor Norman Finkelstein from the “One state is the only solution for Israel” debate that was to be hold in 23\107 at Oxford Union.

============================
=========================

Well well. Norman Finkelstein is an avowed Holocaust denier and and an avowed anti-Israel writer.
How does one go to a debate that is listed as “One state is the only solution for Israel.” ?

The 2 state solution has been agreed upon as a goal by everyone and anyone with cerebal hemispheres that work, who is interested in a peaceful solution.  A one-state solution as proposed would be suicide for Israel.

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By Howard, October 25, 2007 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment

Well, the book by Dershowitz is far superior than the one discusse here written by Walt & co.  AND, I’ve read them both. One cannot go by titles or covers.

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By Robert, October 25, 2007 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment

More on the Oxford Union

Intellectual terrorism

For the sake of free speech, British organisations should confront pro-Israel bullies, not appease them.

10.25.2007 | The Guardian
By Ghada Karmi

The newest and least attractive import from America, following on behind Coca-Cola, McDonald’s and Friends, is the pro-Israel lobby. The latest target of this US-style campaign is the august Oxford Union.

This week, two Israeli colleagues and I were due to appear at the union to participate in an important debate on the one-state solution in Israel-Palestine. Also invited was the American Jewish scholar and outspoken critic of Israel, Norman Finkelstein. At the last minute, however, the union withdrew its invitation to him, apparently intimidated by threats from various pro-Israel groups.

The Harvard Jewish lawyer and indefatigable defender of Israel, Alan Dershowitz, attacked the topic of the debate as well as the Oxford Union itself. In an article headlined “Oxford Union is dead”, he accused it of having become “a propaganda platform for extremist views”, and castigated its choice of what he termed anti-Israel and anti-semitic speakers.

Yet Dershowitz could have restored the balance as he saw it; he was the first person invited by the Oxford Union to oppose the motion but he declined due, as he put it, to “the terms of the debate and my proposed teammates”.

Dershowitz’s article attacking the Oxford Union appeared in the Jerusalem Post in Israel and Frontpage magazine in the US. [Because of British defamation laws Cif has been advised not to provide a link - Ed.]

Dershowitz and Finkelstein were protagonists in a much-publicised academic row in the US, though it is unclear whether this has any relevance to the Oxford Union spat.

In solidarity with Finkelstein and to oppose this gross interference in British democratic life, the three of us on the “one state” side - myself, Avi Shlaim, of St Anthony’s College, Oxford, and the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe - decided to withdraw from the debate. This was not an easy decision, since the topic was timely and necessary given the current impasse in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, where innovative solutions are in short supply.

Dershowitz and the other pro-Israel activists may rejoice at their success in derailing an important discussion. But it is of little comfort to those of us who care about freedom of speech in this country. Last May, Dershowitz interfered in British academic life when the University and College Union voted overwhelmingly to debate the merits of boycotting Israeli institutions. He teamed up with a British Jewish lawyer, Anthony Julius, and others, threatening to “devastate and bankrupt” anyone acting against Israeli universities.

In another example of these bullying tactics, the Royal Society of Medicine, one of Britain’s most venerable medical institutions, came under an attack this month, unprecedented in its 200 year history. It had invited Dr Derek Summerfield, a psychiatrist (who has also documented Israelõs medical abuses against Palestinians in the Occupied Territories), to its conference on Religion, Spirituality and Mental Health. The RSM was immediately bombarded with threats from pro-Israel doctors demanding Dr Summerfield’s removal on the grounds that he was époliticalõ and biased, and that the RSM’s charitable status would be challenged if he remained. Intimidated, the RSM asked Dr Summerfield to withdraw, although they later reinstated him.

The power of the Israel lobby in America is legendary. It demonstrates its influence at many levels. Campus Watch is a network that monitors alleged anti-Israel activity in US academic institutions.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1283

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By Inherit The Wind, October 25, 2007 at 6:24 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony Wicher on 10/25 at 5:15 pm
(300 comments total)

Re #109407 by Howard on 10/24 at 7:03 pm

“Fairer” - meaning it agrees with you. The very title of the book, “The Case for Israel” shows how Dershowitz thinks, which is like a lawyer defending a client. It doesn’t matter if the client is O.J. Simpson. The idea is to get the client off, and any kind of lie or nonsense will do. Dershowitz is a flack for Israel and not a scholar. But alas, flacks such as he are successful in posing as scholars in the eyes of those who are unable to tell the difference.

Right, ITW?

Actually, yes, I do agree. Lawyers (like Dershowitz and Coultergeist) don’t realize that what they do is neither valid history, nor valid political science.  You put it very well, Tony.

Meanwhile, 3 of the anti-Semite juggernaut ALL rushed in to stick together and call me a lot of nasty names—like I care. Facts? Nary a one—but lots of what they think are insults.  We got Robert-Abu repeating himself (like a really stinky fart), Non-Credible (living up to his real name) and BenedictArnold showing yet again he doesn’t know ANYTHING about Patrick Henry.

Three tin-foil-hat-neo-nazi-loonies for the price of one. That’s some kind of bargain, but I’m a Jew—I’m SUPPOSED to like bargains, right?

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By Tony Wicher, October 25, 2007 at 6:15 pm Link to this comment

Re #109407 by Howard on 10/24 at 7:03 pm

“Fairer” - meaning it agrees with you. The very title of the book, “The Case for Israel” shows how Dershowitz thinks, which is like a lawyer defending a client. It doesn’t matter if the client is O.J. Simpson. The idea is to get the client off, and any kind of lie or nonsense will do. Dershowitz is a flack for Israel and not a scholar. But alas,  flacks such as he are successful in posing as scholars in the eyes of those who are unable to tell the difference. 

Right, ITW?

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By PatrickHenry, October 25, 2007 at 5:35 pm Link to this comment

ITW aka windbag,

Here’s one of those good old nazi sites to complain about. 

http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UPDATE/Update2007-04-15.htm

Alot of good material here.

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By Robert, October 25, 2007 at 4:54 pm Link to this comment

ITZW…Just keep frothing and foaming at the mouth. That zionist wind is blowing it back in your face.

You zionist tactics are NOT working for your ADL agenda. Your deceptive and sneaky ways are too transparent. You are always playing and harping at “being the victim”...you never stop whining about anti-semitism, Hitler, Jew haters…etc…its the same ole crap…ITZW. Just about everybody is sick of your damn trash!

Norman Finkelstein has called it right in his book “Beyond Chutzpah”...On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 25, 2007 at 2:17 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Robert on 10/25 at 12:08 pm
(500 comments total)

Comment #109508 by Non Credo on 10/25

Non Credo…don’t waste your time on “Inherit The Zionist Wind” / ITZW.

**************

That’s right…Do what Robert-abu does and get all your ideas from white-supremacist, nazi and KKK web sites.

Abu keeps trying to paint this picture of lies about me—that’s another nazi technique—lie, lie and keep lying and NEVER stop no matter HOW many times you are called on it.  If you are called on it 1000 times you never know if you will be believed the thousand and first time you tell the lie.  Abu’s hero, Joseph Geobbels called “The Big Lie” as a technique, so he repeats it endlessly.

....That is when he’s not drowning us in 6 pages of crap he cribbed from one his crack-pot racist web-sites—because Robert-Abu hasn’t had an original thought in his head since he’s posted here.

But I know Non-Credible will follow Abu—twin birds from the same rotten egg.  Now there’s this new bigot, Airhead-ologist spewing the same crap that Hitler spewed “The Jews control everything…WAHHHHHH! I can’t get ahead…WAHHH!!!..I’m utterly incompetent so it must be the JEWS…WAHHHHHH!!!!”  No. It’s just you are incompetent and won’t admit it.

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By Howard, October 25, 2007 at 1:36 pm Link to this comment

It’s pure poppycock and nonsense and falsehoods to accuse American or Israeli soldiers of killing civilians on purpose, in contrast to Islamic terrorist suicide people who target them on purpose. Might we hear a word or two on them?

Soldiers do their best to avoid civilians and world armies have praised the Israeli soldiers for their superb job under the most difficult situations. Just like the American soldiers in Baghdad and its suburbs.  Terrorist hide, yes, hide behinc or push children out in front of them.  The famous video which the French journalist sent out world-wide of a child in Gaza being shot has now been proven to be a phony and staged.  So says his newspaper in France and the Israeli army after a thorough investigation.
  Also the attempt to disparage Zionism is misguided.
I’m not a Zionist, but seeing so much seething words about it here, I thought I’d read up on Zionism. Seems like a normal nationistic movement to me.

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By Robert, October 25, 2007 at 1:08 pm Link to this comment

Comment #109508 by Non Credo on 10/25

Non Credo…don’t waste your time on “Inherit The Zionist Wind” / ITZW. He is another one of those “fanatic zionist hecklers”. ITZW job has been and will continue to be to heckle and to try to counter anything that is NOT favorable to his zionist’s ideology and his Apartheid Israel. Just like an ADL member and/or volunteer. ITZW core values are “Pure Zionist Deceptions and Planting Doubt” on TD’s forums.

These guys have been infected with their disease since childhood. They have NO choice. Their heads are forever locked in that zionist box.

Too much zionist peer pressure on these guys. They have to continue with being “ZIONISM’S” watch dogs!

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By Robert, October 25, 2007 at 12:50 pm Link to this comment

#109496 by Howard on 10/25

“And the rest of the above comment are falsehoods and fabrications put out by abominable Pal websites. There are no child killers anymore than the ones who we see daily in Iraq who are caught in terrorists showdowns with the Iraqi police or American forces. And terrorists know it when they bring the children along.”
——

Heckler Howard…says there are NO child killers in the Israeli IDF…Hmmm!!!

———-

Aug. 8, 2007

IDF Soldiers Never Go to Jail for Killing Palestinian. Never.

The Murder of Abir Aramin, Nine Years Old

By NURIT PELED-ELHANAN

“How sad it is to come to the realization that the number of those who evade service in the army of occupation is so low that there is virtually no effect on the motivation of Israel’s children to put on the uniform of brutality.

Professor Stewart Cohen of Bar Ilan University consoles us by declaring that the “blame” lies in the increase in the number of Haredis who do not serve and he informs us that the army of the United States would have been happy with such a low percentage of evaders during the Vietnam war. Maybe we would do well to learn something from the Americans of the 1960s, or even from the Haredi Jews who fear for the safety of their children.

When the extent of evasion became known, I was invited onto the program of Oded Shahar, “Politika”, as a mother who will not permit her son (now 15 years old) to join the army. Apart from me, I was informed over the course of a protracted campaign of persuasion, only men were invited, most of them warmongering generals like Effie Eitam and Yossi Peled.

After I was convinced that my participation in the program would be important, I agreed. The researcher asked me why I would not allow my son to enlist. I explained to her that an army that has been involved for forty years now in systematic and growing abuse of a civilian population, (abuse that even a courageous journalist like Gideon Levy calls by the gentle name of “policing”), an army that teaches its soldiers that killing Palestinian children and those who protect them, like Rachel Corrie and James Miller, is not a crime, an army whose commanders are immune to punishment though they commit daily crimes against humanity, is not a suitable place for my son, who was brought up to love people, who has Palestinian friends, whose brothers and parents have Palestinian friends who are subjected to that same reign of terror and daily torment. After half an hour I was told that despite my contribution there were not enough seats on the stage.

A few days later we were told in an isolated solitary news broadcast that the file on the murder of Abir Aramin, the daughter of Salwa and Bassam Aramin, has been closed. Bassam is one of the founders of the Palestinian-Israeli movement Combatants for Peace, where my sons Elik and Guy are members. Bassam Aramin spent 9 years in an Israeli jail for being a member of the Fatah in the Hebron area and for trying to throw a grenade on an Israeli army Jeep which was patrolling in Occupied Hebron.

On a Tuesday afternoon, the 16th of January, an Israeli soldier shot his nine year old daughter, Abir, in the head as she was leaving school to go home. The soldier will not spend an hour in jail. In Israel, soldiers are not imprisoned for killing Arabs. Never. It does not matter whether the Arabs are young or old, real or potential terrorists, peaceful demonstrators or stone throwers. The army has not conducted an inquiry in Abir death. The police and the courts have questioned no one except for Abir’s sister, who was holding her hand while she was falling. The young sister was asked time and again how many meters were they from the school gate, from the kiosk, from the jeep.

There was hardly any investigation except for a private one by Bassam and his friends who know exactly who the killer is. But as far as the Israeli Defense Forces are concerned, the shooting did not happen.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/peled08082007.html

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By Aretologist, October 25, 2007 at 12:40 pm Link to this comment

The book is praiseworthy. Someone now needs to write a book about all the other Jewish organizations working around the world doing similar things.  Fact is a lot of similar revealing books could be written about these Jewish organizations in just about every country in the world.

The book also shows beyond any reasonable doubt that there are no genuinely “smart” people in Washington
anymore. As the book explains,  AIPAC sent the American politician that was perspicacious home a long time ago. What’s left there are conditioned creatures masquerading as human beings - i.e., politicians.

Any politician left is only “smart” enough to put a Jewish Mezusah on his office door - like Florida’s Governor Crist did recently. “Smart” politicians today are only perspicacious enough to know who butters their toast in the morning every day and that they were elected only because they pledged allegiance to Israel. The “smart” politicians today are smart only because they know that AIPAC and Israel are in charge and not to even bother entering politics if they don’t want to “go along to get along” congenially.

But AIPAC is only partly responsible for this mess we’re in.

AIPAC is responsible only for their inadvertent and unforseen conditioning of America’s politicians.

Did AIPAC have the foresight to suppose that their efforts would be so successful?

I don’t think AIPAC in the 1970s realized exactly what they were doing - conditioning America’s politicians.

I don’t think AIPAC was perspicacious enough to foresee that conditioned politicians could become rabid in their effort to please their master and do hasty imprudent things in order to win their love and affection and gratefulness - and then also to get their just reward - their reelection.

I think what finally occurred in America has astounded even the Jews and caught Israel “off guard.”  A complete surprise. And it took only 30-40 years of relentless effort both in Washington and in the mass media.

Should AIPAC have stopped the invasion or Iraq? In hindsight I believe many in AIPAC now believe they should have. Yes they could have. How? By using the same means they have always used in America. Coercion and intimidation.

I theorize that AIPAC now realizes they should have stopped Bush. Why?

Because before the invasions AIPAC had a crook and an imbecile in charge in Iraq.

And as AIPAC surely knows from experience -  brainless President’s (and Secretaries of State) are always manageable - simply because they are so dumb. And always predictable too for the same reason.

Now AIPAC has the unknown to deal with in Iraq - an unpredictable future.

Where-as before the invasion they had a known guaranteed idiot at the helm of the country.

The question on everyone’s Jewish mind is: Will the Israelis eventually enjoy the astounding success they enjoy in a “democratic” Iraq that they currently enjoy in “democratic” America?

(By “democracy” I mean the obvious -  the election of extra-ordinary mediocrities by just plain ordinary mediocrities)

Will AIPAC be able to control Iraqi’s politicians and successfully maneuver dimwits into office on a regular basis as frequently as they do in America?

I believe that to ensure that the Iraqi people remain as subservient to Israel as they were subservient to Saddam -  Israel - using America and the American people’s money (as usual) -  is building the largest embassy in the world
in Iraq.

It is being built to ensure that the Iraqi people end up as subservient to Israel through another “democratic front” - as Americans are today with our own “democratic smoke-screen” democracy.

We are building the largest embassy known to mankind there for Israel just to make sure Iraq ends up like us -  a country not truly free and independent.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 25, 2007 at 10:03 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

placing large numbers of US troop sin Saudi Arabia, was primarily for Israel’s benefit. You may think that I believe this because I’m stupid, but please explain how M & W could be stupid. Explain how their extensive documentation - showing the fact that the Israel lobby was the main political force pushing hard for the new dual containment policy - is all false.

I think you are deceptive and sneaky and will say ANYTHING to support your position. Plus I KNOW you and Robert use false “documentation” from neo-nazi web-sites all the time.  M&W;use phony doc too, and deliberately mis-interpret what they have. 

What’s so tough to explain? Ann Coultergeist sells millions of books doing exactly the same thing. As H.L. Mencken put it, nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American publc.  Guess he was thinking of you…

It’s like shooting fish in a barrel.

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By Howard, October 25, 2007 at 8:43 am Link to this comment

RE:  109482

“The letter by Ronen Berelovich to Oxford reflects a clear message from a human being, a former IDF, who has the courage and humanity and who has refused to go back and enslave an OCCUPIED Palestinian population of 3.5 million with NO basic human rights under Israel’s “Apartheid/Nazi” zionist system.

Ronen has most likely been forced to commit the most gruesome and oppressive acts against unarmed Palestinian civilians. He has seen too many of his IDF “child Killers” members murder Palestinian children and none of them go to prison for one hour…NEVER. “
===================================
============================

Any questionable “occupied” territory has been offered to the Pal’s, but they refuse to take it and renounce violence (until Israel disappears, which has been and is still their only approach).
  And the rest of the above comment are falsehoods and fabrications put out by abominable Pal websites. There are no child killers anymore than the ones who we see daily in Iraq who are caught in terrorists showdowns with the Iraqi police or American forces. And terrorists know it when they bring the children along.
  And it pales compared to the killiing and murders of children, civilians, mothers, and by the years of terrorists suicide who purposefully target civilians.
  I’m pro Israel and pro Palestinian, and hope they agree soon on the 2 state solution.  A win-win situation that will benefit everyone. Hope Hamas changes its mind and reaches out for the sake of their people.

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By Robert, October 25, 2007 at 7:39 am Link to this comment

#109453 by Howard on 10/25 at 3:23 am
(106 comments total)


“The letter shows that Israel’s have freedom and DO criticise their gov’t.  Do we see any Arab people doing that and then printed on those fixated web-sites?

Israel is without question one the most amazing, one the most admirable countries the world has ever seen. Despite its only being a little more than fifty years old, despite a population of just over five million, despite having to be at war footing for almost its entire life, despite having absorbed more immigrants in relation to its population that any country in history, its accomplishments in almost any area of human activity are admirable.”
==============================================

Howard…

The letter by Ronen Berelovich to Oxford reflects a clear message from a human being, a former IDF, who has the courage and humanity and who has refused to go back and enslave an OCCUPIED Palestinian population of 3.5 million with NO basic human rights under Israel’s “Apartheid/Nazi” zionist system.

Ronen has most likely been forced to commit the most gruesome and oppressive acts against unarmed Palestinian civilians. He has seen too many of his IDF “child Killers” members murder Palestinian children and none of them go to prison for one hour…NEVER.

Ronen Berelovich has a “humanity” heart and a conscious that faces him everyday. He knows that Palestinians/Arabs, Christians and Moslems, are 3rd and 4th class citizens in Israel. He has seen the most gruesome forms of oppression and racism committed and enforced by Israel’s IDF, police and others…everyday.

So Howard…you can continue to boast about your admiration for your Apartheid Israel. You can’t help it and you have NO choice in the matter.

Your head is locked in that zionist box.

It is fortunate that we have people like Norman Finkelstein and others who are on the side of TRUTH, justice, human rights, equal rights, fairness, peace and International Law.

He and others are NOT on the side of RACISM, Apartheid, Occupation, Oppression, Ethnic Cleansing, House Demolitions, Bloody Murder of innocent civilians. He and others and NOT on the side Menachem Begin, Ariel Sharon, Netanyahu, Olmert, Israel’s Generals, IDF and the fanatic zionists.

Just keep on “heckling” anyone who tries to post the TRUTH about your Israel…

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By Howard, October 25, 2007 at 4:23 am Link to this comment

RE:
#109409 by Robert on 10/24 at 7:18 pm
(497 comments total)

Israeli soldier writes President of Oxford Union
=========================================
==========================================
One must consider the ’ source ’ of this letter. Comes from a webiste that is not just pro-Pal’s but extremely anti-Israel. One of many extreme sites that are devoid of any rational approach to the ‘conflict ‘.  Their goal is to remove Israel from existence amd blame it for all the world’s ills.

The letter shows that Israel’s have freedom and DO criticise their gov’t.  Do we see any Arab people doing that and then printed on those fixated web-sites?

Israel is without question one the most amazing, one the most admirable countries the world has ever seen. Despite its only being a little more than fifty years old, despite a population of just over five million, despite having to be at war footing for almost its entire life, despite having absorbed more immigrants in relation to its population that any country in history, its accomplishments in almost any area of human activity are admirable.

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By Robert, October 24, 2007 at 8:18 pm Link to this comment

Israeli soldier writes President of Oxford Union

Ronen Berelovich
Israel

Luke Tryl
President of Oxford Union
Oxford University, UK

Dear Luke,

In spite of our differences, it was a pleasure to talk to you on the phone today, 23-10-07. Thank you for your openness and honesty. I am now following up with a letter to register my official complaint about the decision you took to remove Professor Norman Finkelstein from the “One state is the only solution for Israel” debate that was to be hold in 23\107 at Oxford Union. I am registering my complaint as a private individual living in Israel i am a film-maker and a reserve soldier in the Israeli Army. There are a few points that arose in our conversation, which I believe would be of wider interest than just to the two of us, so I’d like to highlight them and to share this letter with Professor Finkelstein and anyone else interested.

To reiterate our conversation, you told me that the reason for the removal of Professor Finkelstein from the debate was the intervention of certain interest parties and people pressuring Oxford Union. You identified Alan Dershowitz as one of those people and you said that he had personally demanded that Professor Finkelstein should be removed from the debate. The reason being that with Finkelstein on the “two-state” side, the debate would be too “anti Israel” and “not balanced”.

I replied that this debate was about a one-state solution versus a two-state solution; the two parties were to argue which of the two solutions might be best for Israel and the Palestinians. It was NOT to be a debate about being “pro” or “anti” Israel; therefore, whether Finkelstein was “pro” or “against” Israel was irrelevant. Finkelstein, like everyone else, has a right to be pro or against Israel and it should NOT be enough to exclude him from a debate at a place like Oxford Union. You agreed with me and you stated that this was what you thought as well. However, you were forced to drop Finkelstein due to the pressure exerted on you.

Unfortunately, with that decision you have demonstrated that “freedom of speech” in Oxford debating society is liable to be censored. You have also revealed a sad fact that even such an established and prestigious institution as Oxford, which is supposed to represent the highest ideals of the western culture, such as freedom of expression, bows down to demands of interest groups i.e. the Israeli lobby and Alan Dershowitz. I suggest that the only honorable way for you to restore your academic integrity is to officially apologize to Professor Finkelstein on his website, explaining what really happened.

I am not asking you lightly to stand up to what you believe in. I used to be in the Israeli elite paratroopers, but after what I saw and was forced to do, I vowed that I would never go back to the Army and act as a tool for enslaving 3.5 million people in their own land without any basic human rights. As a soldier refusing to go to the reserve duty (I am a member of the Courage to Refuse group of IDF officers), I live with the constant threat of imprisonment. You can appreciate therefore that I do understand ‘outside pressure’. I just wish you the courage to follow your own ideals and integrity, because as a president of the Oxford Union, your fellow students and intellectuals world over expect nothing less of you.

I wish you the best,

Ronen Berelovich

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1279

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By Howard, October 24, 2007 at 8:03 pm Link to this comment

Dershowitz may not be a likeable person, and he perhaps doesn’t comb his hair nicely; but he can write and having read his latest book: THE CASE FOR ISRAEL, it is a far fairer treatment and not slanted out of shape like the book reviewed here by Mersh and Walt.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 24, 2007 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment
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Howard on 10/24 at 3:20 pm
(104 comments total)

Well, Dershowitz is a great scholar. One can call him or Foxman any ‘name ‘ you want but it doesn’t change the quality of their books. Especially compared to the one here by Mearsheimer/Walts, and the one by Finkelstein (which I’ve also read ).

For once I agree with Tony. I think Dershowitz is a putz, and a dangerous putz.  His legal gymnastics are no different than what William Rehnquist used to do, especially before he was the Chief Justice.  I used to think he was a great legal mind, but he disgusted me SO much with his ego and his belief he could twist ANY argument the direction he wanted it to go, I became totally dis-enchanted with him.

I wouldn’t want Deshowitz as an enemy—but I don’t think I want him as a friend, either.

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By Howard, October 24, 2007 at 4:20 pm Link to this comment

Well, Dershowitz is a great scholar. One can call him or Foxman any ‘name ’ you want but it doesn’t change the quality of their books. Especially compared to the one here by Mearsheimer/Walts, and the one by Finkelstein (which I’ve also read ).

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By Tony Wicher, October 24, 2007 at 3:27 pm Link to this comment

#109287 by Howard on 10/24 at 9:03 am
(103 comments total)

“I’ve also read Dershowitz’s book and Foxman’s. Both much better ...”

Alan Dershowitz is an absolute smear artist. He has brought the smear to an art form not seen since Joseph Goebbels. There is not a real scholar in the country who would give Dershowitz the time of day. I would tell you to read Norman Finkelsteins “Beyond Chutzpah”, where Finklestein, a true scholar, takes the time to slice Dershowitz into tiny writhing fragments. But I doubt you are interested in serious study.

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By Tony Wicher, October 24, 2007 at 3:15 pm Link to this comment

Jewish Glasnost Update: Zionist Panic!

Is Israel’s top liberal daily a fifth column?
By Tony Karon, in “the Rootless Cosmopositan”

Apropos my earlier piece arguing that the ferocious backlash by the Zionist right against Jewish critics of Israel — also targeting as ‘anti-semitic’ those like Archbishop Desmond Tutu who seek to judge Israel by universal moral standards — is a sign of panic over losing their claim to a monopoly on representing Jews, evidence is growing that they are increasingly aware of their own predicament. One reader pointed out this glum editorial by arch-Zionist and neocon Daniel Pipes, warning that even if it overcomes all the mortal threats that neocons like to see all around Israel, that won’t help it cope with what he calls Israel’s ultimate challenge — “a Jewish population increasingly disenchanted with, even embarrassed by, the country’s founding ideology, Zionism, the Jewish national movement.” (Actually, Daniel, I’d call it the Jewish nationalist movement, but let’s not quibble here.)

It’s worth quoting at lenght from Pipes’ piece:

“Worse for Israel, Jewish nationalism has lost the near-automatic support it once had among secular Jews, many of whom find this nineteenth-century ideology out of date. Some accept arguments that a Jewish state represents racism or ethnic supremacism, others find universalist and multi-cultural alternatives compelling. Consider some signs of the changes underway:

Young Israelis are avoiding the military in record numbers, with 26 percent of enlistment-age Jewish males and 43 percent of females not drafted in 2006. An alarmed Israel Defense Forces has requested legislation to deny state-provided benefits to Jewish Israelis who do not serve.
Israel’s Attorney General Menachem Mazuz has up-ended the work of the Jewish National Fund, one of the pioneer Zionist institutions (founded in 1901) by determining that its role of acquiring land specifically for Jews cannot continue in the future with state assistance.
Prominent Israeli historians focus on showing how Israel was conceived in sin and has been a force for evil. Israel’s ministry of education has approved school books for third-grade Arab students that present the creation of Israel in 1948 as a ‘catastrophe’ (Arabic: nakba).
Avraham Burg, scion of a leading Zionist household and himself a prominent Labor Party figure, has published a book comparing Israel with 1930s Germany.
A 2004 poll found only 17 percent of American Jews call themselves ‘Zionist.’
Noting that these trends simply put young Israelis and American Jews in line with international trends, the only consolation he offers is that things will hopefully get better for the Zionists a quarter century from now.

Add to this the observations of Phil Weiss, whose blog is must-read for those seeking a smart and sober chronicling of the battle of ideas in today’s America, much of it focused on Jewish identity politics (although far from exclusively so).

When he heard that the rightwing Zionist media watchdog organization CAMERA was organizing a summit on “Jewish Defamers of Israel,” he did what any good journalist should: He paid his $40 and attended the event. And what he found was a bunch of alte kakkers (he didn’t call them that, of course, simply noted that the average age appeared to be over 60) kvetching in communion with stalwarts of the Zionist right. He writes:
The CAMERA people are losing and they know it. Near the end Cynthia Ozick was asked how we should go about delegitimizing the delegitimizers of the Jewish state and she sighed and said,“It’s hpeless.” Alvin Rosenfeld, the author of the disgraceful report on Jewish anti-Semitism put out by the American Jewish Committee, was mildly more optimistic. He said exactly what I say: “We are in a furious intellectual struggle. There is a war of ideas going on… it won’t end quickly…. It is steady work.” And it is “serious and worrisome” inasmuch as these ideas may now “enter the mainstream.” Amen.

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By Tony Wicher, October 24, 2007 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

(Tony Karon, continued from above)

The reason It’s hopeless for the other side is that there was, in the basement of the synagogue, little to zero acknowledgement of the three great realities that are feeding Jewish post-Zionism.

1. the end of anti-Semitism. My old friend and I talked about a Jewish Daily News columnist who refused to hire Jews. That was 50 years ago. The injury is fresh. As the memories of anti-Semitism are for my parents. And they are virtually meaningless to young Americans. A panelist very briefly acknowledged this at the end, saying that Jews are so comfortable in America, how do we stir them?

2. the Israeli occupation of Arab lands and Israel’s brutal treatment of Palestinians were at no time acknowledged, but endlessly rationalized. The separate roadway system for settlers and Palestinian Arabs–rationalized. The incursion into Jenin–whitewashed. And so on. This sort of denial went on in South Africa during the campaign against apartheid. Young people don’t feel quite so defiant.

3. Not a word about Iraq. I have this feeling often in conservative Jewish gatherings. Iraq doesn’t touch them. It’s not a big deal to them, they are removed from it, they are for a hawkish policy in the Mideast and so they talk about Darfur/Sudan more than Baghdad.

And then, to cap it all, in the continuing tradition of Nixonesque paranoia that has everyone from Jimmy Carter to Bishop Tutu being closet Jew-haters, the CAMERA people identify a new target requiring urgent pressure: No, not Iran, Haaretz! Turns out the Israeli liberal daily (which, BTW, still pursues what it calls a Zionist editorial line, albeit from the left) is the latest “threat” to Israel, because it tends to report the truth about Israeli actions. And what they’re most worried about is Haaretz’s excellent English-language web site. As Weiss reports:

The heart of Levin’s concern was the American discourse. When Haaretz was just published in Israel, CAMERA didn’t care about its statements about the occupation and the destruction of Palestinian hopes and dreams and olive trees. “This all happened in Hebrew… causing little outward impact..”

Outward impact. She means: now Haaretz is affecting U.S. opinion and foreign policy. The most important statement Levin made was that she gets the brushoff from Amos Schocken, the Haaretz publisher, but with the American media, “there is an unwritten contract between them and us.” (Verbatim transcript to come later, when I have a little time…) An unwritten contract: to be fair to Israel, to print CAMERA members’ letters, to pick up the phone.

Isn’t that amazing and scandalous? Levin is explaining why there is a free debate in Israel and not here. Because of the lobby and its “unwritten contract.” Because U.S. support is crucial to Israel’s existence. And so Americans, who supposedly so love the Middle East democracy that they support it out of the goodness of their hearts, must not read the news from Israel.

When the Zionist right in America “defends Israel” by going after one of Israel’s most respected newspapers which happens to tell the truth about the occupation and related matters, it’s not hard to see why Pipes & co. have little cause for optimism. The Zionist moment is over, because most Jews around the world (and even many in Israel) are not inclined to a nationalist view of their Jewishness. And remember, Zionism is not much more than 100 years old, arising along with the nationalist currents of late 19th century Europe that accompanied the breakup of the Hapsburg empire. It’s hardly surprising that in a 21st century where we have had a free choice, almost two thirds of us have chosen to live not in a “Jewish State” but wherever in the world we choose to. Many Israelis today are excercising the same choice. And Jews who are not prone to nationalism have no need to rationalize Israel’s abuses against others.

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By PatrickHenry, October 24, 2007 at 3:05 pm Link to this comment

Some relevant facts.

http://www.carolmoore.net/nuclearwar/israelithreats.html#Samsonoption

Maybe we should trade Vanunu for Pollard from our “ally”.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 24, 2007 at 1:45 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Non Credo on 10/24 at 11:45 am
(398 comments total)

ITW:

If you read the book, you would understand that the REASON the US stationed troops in Saudi Arabia is FOR ISRAEL’S “SECURITY”.

The authors explain that previously, the US policy had been to avoid the provocative stationing of troops in mideast countries, preferring a strategy of “offshore balancing” - keeping US troops “over the horizon”, rapidly deployable in a crisis to the mideast from as far away as the continental US.

The Israel lobby pushed hard for and got a NEW policy of “dual containment,” which they dressed up with bullshit arguments pretending to justify this as being beneficial to the US. “Dual containment” called for large numbers of US troops to be stationed permanently and provocatively in Saudi Arabia.

The facts have an anti-Israel bias, because the facts show that virtually the entire horrid predicament in which we find ourselves is due to our self-destructive “support” for worse-than-useless Israel.

Yeah, I know, you believe ANYTHING that attacks Israel no matter how LITTLE sense it makes. Even the most obvious GLARING discrepancy flies past you if it would ameliorate in any way your hatred of Israel, and willingness to ascribe every evil to that nation, and, of course, to all Jews.

And what IS that glaring discrepancy?  Can you see it? Do you have a f***ing clue????

Hint number 1: The bases are in SAUDI ARABIA!
Hint number 2: George H.W.Bush was close friends with Saudi Prince Bandar and all the Saudi royal family.
Hint number 3: The Saudis are EXTREMELY strict Moslems and, of course, Israel is not Moslem.
Hint number 4: The Saudis don’t like Israel very much.

Do you need to have it painted on the wall for you?

These two clowns clearly have NO understanding of foreign policy, foreign relations or national security.  As much of a butthole as he was, and is, George H.W. Bush certainly understood those things.  He’s not nearly the incompetent ignoramous his first-born is.

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By Robert, October 24, 2007 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

Fulbright Called for U.S. Defense Pact With Israel But Was Labeled Anti-Semite

By Donald Neff

It was 27 years ago, on Aug. 22, 1970, when Democratic Senator J. William Fulbright of Arkansas proposed that the United Nations impose peace on Israel and Arab states and that the United States guarantee Israel’s borders within its pre-1967 boundaries. His proposal also urged that the Palestinians living under Israeli occupation be granted self-determination, that Jerusalem become an international city, as mandated in the original U.N. partition of Palestine, and that Israeli ships be guaranteed passage through the Straits of Tiran and the Suez Canal.1

Fulbright was the respected chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and generally a foe of U.S. commitments abroad. Nonetheless, in a 15,000-word speech titled “Old Myths and New Realities the Middle East,” he said it may be necessary to commit U.S. troops to the Middle East in order to gain peace. He proposed that the United States enter into a bilateral treaty with Israel to “guarantee the territory and independence of Israel within the borders of 1967.”

Fulbright added: “The supplementary, bilateral arrangements with Israel would obligate the United States to use force if necessary, in accordance with its constitutional processes, to assist Israel against any violation of its 1967 borders which it could not repel itself, but the agreement would also obligate Israel, firmly and unequivocally, never to violate those borders herself.”

It was an extremely favorable proposal for Israel, giving it recognized sovereignty over the Palestinian land it had captured and held by force before 1967, free naval passage through the Red Sea to the Indian Ocean, and a formal defense treaty with the United States, which it had long sought. But it did not give Israel sovereignty over Jerusalem and, significantly, it would mean the return of vast areas of Arab territory it had captured in 1967 and on which it already was constructing illegal settlements.

Instead of using Fulbright’s plan to talk peace, Israel sharply rejected it as unfair, and Israel’s U.S. supporters increased their personal attacks on the senator. Fulbright had long been characterized as an “anti-Semite” by American Jews because of his critical views of Israel’s aggressive policies and its enormous influence in Washington. His critics, and there were many, particularly on the right after he spoke out against the Vietnam War in the mid-1960s, delighted in referring to him as “Senator Halfbright.”

But it was Zionists who especially despised him. Fulbright had earned the ever-lasting enmity of Israel and its friends as early as 1963, when his Foreign Relations Committee held hearings on foreign lobbies, including Israel’s lobby. The hearings concluded that Israel operated “one of the most effective networks of foreign influence” in the United States. It found that Israel used tax-free dollars donated to the United Jewish Appeal for charities in Israel in the United States to influence U.S. opinion.

These funds eventually were used to purchase the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, to establish and maintain the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, and to pressure U.S. newspapers to support Israel and to attack critics of Israel, among other activities. Fulbright revealed that the Zionist pursuit of promoting Israel included “placement of articles on Israel in some of America’s leading magazines,” arranging for radio and TV programs sympathetic to Israel, and subsidizing trips to Israel by such “public opinion molders” as Christian clergymen, academics and mass media representatives.2

http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0897/9708096.htm

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By Robert, October 24, 2007 at 12:52 pm Link to this comment

(Part II, from previous comment)

As the years went on, Fulbright became an increasingly outspoken critic of Israel. During the 1973 war in the Middle East, he said that the best way to have peace was for the United States and the Soviet Union to refuse to provide Arabs and Israelis weapons, adding: “but we are not going to do that….Somewhere around 80 percent of the Senate of the United States is completely in support of Israel and of anything Israel wants.” In December, while the Senate debated the award to Israel of more aid, Fulbright observed that “instead of rearming Israel, we could have peace in the Middle East at once if we just told Tel Aviv to withdraw behind the 1967 borders and guarantee them.“3

When Fulbright stood for re-election the next year, he was defeated, ending a 32-year congressional career. He believed his criticisms of Israel largely caused his loss, noting that “any member of Congress who does not follow the wishes of the Israel lobby is bitterly denounced and can be assured of finding his opponent richly funded in the next election.” 4

Indeed, major Jewish contributions flowed to his opponent, Dale Bumpers. A Bumpers’ aide bragged: “I could have bought central Arkansas with the offers of money from the Jewish community they came particularly from people in New York and California who have raised a lot of money in the Jewish community for political purposes.“5

Although out of office, Fulbright maintained his interest in the Middle East and Israel’s influence in America. He joined a Washington law firm, where he was well situated to keep an eye on the Israel lobby’s activities. In a 1989 book, The Price of Empire, he wrote: “The [Israel] lobby can just about tell the president what to do when it comes to Israel. Its influence in Congress is pervasive and, I think, profoundly harmful to us and ultimately to Israel itself…So completely have many of our principal officeholders fallen under Israeli influence that they not only deny today the legitimacy of Palestinian national aspirations, but debate who more passionately opposes a Palestinian state.”

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By Robert, October 24, 2007 at 12:50 pm Link to this comment

(Continued from previous comment)


Fulbright Called for U.S. Defense Pact With Israel But Was Labeled Anti-Semite

By Donald Neff

He added: “AIPAC [the American Israel Public Affairs Committee] and its allied organizations have effective working control of the electoral process. They can elect or defeat nearly any congressman or senator that they wish, with their money and coordinated organizations. They are the really important power to negotiate with in the Middle East if you want an agreement.

“The Israelis and their supporters here especially the latter have long taken the position that if you do not do exactly as they wish, you are anti-Israel and anti-Semitic. Accordingly, since no one welcomes these charges and the political sanctions that go with them, it has been impossible to follow what I would call an evenhanded policy in the Middle East. It has not been possible in the past; and it still isn’t.“6

Anyone doubting his claims about the influence of Israel’s lobby had only to read the obituaries written about Fulbright following his death at age 89 on Feb. 9, 1995. The lengthy obituaries recounted his distinguished career as the president of the University of Arkansas at age 34, then being elected to the House of Representatives in 1942 and to the Senate in 1944, where he introduced legislation that led to the Fulbright Scholarship program. He became chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1959 and retained that position for 15 years, the longest tenure in history.

For all that, no mention was made in either The New York Times or The Washington Post about his views toward the Middle East. It was as though his critical positions on Israel had been sucked into a black hole, totally forgotten. Yet here was an issue on which Fulbright had provided a major voice, and which directly contributed to the end of his political career. Clearly the Middle East constituted an important part of his life. Indeed, his career and his loss of office could not be understood without mention of it.7

That the omission of this vital subject was no oversight became clear in succeeding weeks. Both newspapers printed a number of letters from readers recalling various aspects of Fulbright’s long career. But none of the letters sent to the two papers reminding them about Fulbright’s record on Israel were deemed fit to print.8

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By Inherit The Wind, October 24, 2007 at 11:07 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’m still trying to figure out how Israel defeated J. William Fulbright.

He lost the primary in 1974 to Dale Bumpers.  Yeah, Bumpers got support from Jews. So?

But how many Jews were there in ENTIRE state of Arkansas in 1974????? And how the HELL could they have any influence????

You think those folks in Arkansas gave two $#it$ if Fulbright was hard on, or even unfair to Jews?  This was a guy who supported racist and Jim Crow policies most of his career, in a state with a history of racism and Jim Crow (Let’s not forget that Little Rock is in Arkansas).

Southern racists hated 3 things: Blacks who rose above being menials and virtual slaves (then they were OK), Catholics (“Papists”), and Jews.

No, what alienated many Arkansans was Fulbright’s tough challenges to the White House on Viet Nam.  It was too “lib’ral” for them.

But that won’t keep the non-credible anti-semites from blaming Jews.  I’m surprised Non-Credible hasn’t come up with a neo-nazi citation “proving” not only that Jews started the California wild fires, but that they cunningly planned for the last 100 years to make them be THIS big in 2007.

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By Howard, October 24, 2007 at 10:03 am Link to this comment

I’ve read the entire book by Mearsheimer and Walt. Very poor scholarship and research.  Took the extreme view on every topic. Every time.Got very poor reviews.
I’ve also read Dershowitz’s book and Foxman’s. Both much better with an even perspective of the situation in the Mid East.

Certainly one can criticise Israel.  No one says they are perfect. Or any other country. Dershowitz and Foxman criticize, but certainly give a much better book to the public.

And we’ve got some bright people in our government. Do you think they are really overly influenced by ANY lobby?  Just because their decisions may fall on the same side as the farm lobby, the medicaid lobby, the immigrant lobby, or Aipac. They do what is best of the U.S., not a foreign government.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 24, 2007 at 9:51 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Howard, will you please read the article and actually address the points it and the other posters here are making?

Well, I’VE read Milton Viorst’s article and I found it to be rather compelling.  These two characters have published a book that has about as much validity as Ann Coultergeist’s latest.

As for Non-Credible: Who cares if Osama bin Laden was hostile to Israel as a young man? How is that relevant? Lots of Arabs have been hostile to Israel their whole lives. What MATTERS is that he became a violent radical against the United States when permanent bases were established in his home country, Saudi Arabia, following the first Gulf war.

Sheesh! Where do you characters dig up this crap?

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By Aretologist, October 24, 2007 at 9:29 am Link to this comment

The book is fantastic but I don’t believe it will change anything for several reasons.

Reason #1 It’s not good for the Jews.

Reason #2 The take over of America by a “friendly country” ended and true independence was sacrificed when AIPAC removed Senators Fulbright and Percy from Congress. In 1972 William Fulbright, Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee declared that “the Israelis control politics in Congress and in the Senate,” and added that the United States was “subservient to Israel.”  And when AIPAC abolished Congressman Findley from the playing
field for “Daring to Speak Out”  and all the other Congressmen were too stupid and too cowardly to take a stand and confront the Jews, we lost to them. The take over ended when AIPAC eliminated the few American politicians who had any principles, morals, ethics or conscience to fight back. You see the battle was over when those few courageous intelligent politicians tried to defend America and spoke out. They were of course eliminated - they
disappeared - and the rest - what was left - those who were dumb cowards remained and started all groveling at AIPAC’s feet.

And when Israel’s PR agent in the U.S. - America’s mass media - didn’t make a fuss about what AIPAC and American Jews were doing in America, any possibility that America could remain an independent nation ended. The mass media - i.e., Israel’s PR rep in the U.S. -  in effect locked the door on the American people and threw the key away. Any newspaper reporter foolish enough to bellyache quickly followed Fulbright, Percy and Findley to the unemployment office.

Reason #3 - AIPAC is only making sure that our elected politicians give us what we truly want and need - momey and entertainment.  Congressmen and prominent Americans could easily speak out. But this could upset America’s Jews and directly cause a decline in our quality of life. The Jews could become despondent and depressed and angry. The stock market would surely go down, the economy, jobs. For sure the quality of our entertainment industry would be impaired. To the vast majority of America - including myself - Hollywood and TV is truly God’s greatest gift. And Hollywood = the Jews.

So as anyone clearheaded can see,  Congress cannot possible change anything that might upset the Jews. It could capsize the whole boat. Better to let things be and possibly sink with the Jews than to surely sink without them. We would surely sink if we threw the Jews overboard because we wouldn’t have anyone to enlighten and show us the way anyone.

So now America is working with Israel and assisting Israel in making the whole world subservient them. Jews in Israel control Israel and Jews in America control America.

I hypothesize we are doing it because most American’s feel that it is much better being subservient to Israel and having others subservient to us,  rather than just us being subservient to Israel while the rest of the world is free and independent. (Is this is why we hate Iran, Syria, the Palestinians, Castro and Chavez so much? Because they are truly free of the Jews and we are not?)

America can’t say GET OUT! to AIPAC now. The only thing American’s can do now is imagine what the world could have been like if Congress had said NO! in the 1970s.

America, if it wants to be free and independent today,  can only beg and negotiate - like the Palestinians -  for a little more independence and freedom. That is if it really cares about principles and freedom and scruples right and wrong and all those other things that play such a little role in everyday American life today.

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By Tony Wicher, October 24, 2007 at 9:24 am Link to this comment

“Howard is lying. Mearsheimer and Walt amply explain and document, for example, that Osama Bin Laden - responsible for the worst ever terrorist attack against the US - has been motivated since he was a young man by deep anger towards America for its support of Israel.”

NC,

In the interest of civilized discourse, we should not accuse Howard of “lying”. What he is doing is parroting the official Israeli government/Israel lobby line, which no doubt has been dinned into his ears since childbirth. A lot of people really believe this crap, and I’m willing to credit Howard with being one of them. The thing is, Howard has not read the article and is not listening to a word any of the rest of us post.

Howard, will you please read the article and actually address the points it and the other posters here are making?

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By Howard, October 24, 2007 at 4:31 am Link to this comment

Re: #109092

Also equally unreal is to hear of the USS Liberty again. This took place in 1967—38 years ago. Some here who raise the issue refuse to accept that this was an unfortunate accident in the middle of a raging war. This has been proven conclusively by congressional investigation and by in-depth books and articles written about it.

There are so many other pertinent things that I could mention, such as:

• the Arabs’ murderous attack on the Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics;

• the countless attacks by Jihadists in which hundreds and thousands of Jews, Israelis, and others all over the world have lost their lives;

• the Arab attack on the Marines barrack in Beirut, in which hundreds of American service persons died;

• the 1997 bombing by Arabs of the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, in which 23 Americans were killed;

• the attack by Iraqi forces (in peacetime) on the USS STARK in the Persian Gulf, which killed almost exactly as many Navy personnel as were killed in the USS LIBERTY incident;

• the attack by Arabs on the USS COLE, with the loss of many American servicemen;

• And, of course, last but certainly not least, the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center, in which over 3,000 Americans lost their lives—followed by the deadly attacks on Spanish trains and the London subway system.

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By Howard, October 24, 2007 at 4:03 am Link to this comment

Its tiring to hear the same canard and excuse that the Arab World is mad at the U.S. for its support of Israel. Been proven a lousy excuse and doesn’t hold water.

Israel is a major strategic asset of the United States in an area of the world that is the cradle of Islamo-fascism, which is dominated by tyrants and permeated by religious obscurantism and shows almost total disregard for human rights. During the decades-long Cold War, Israel was America’s indispensable rampart against the inroads of the Soviet Union. It is now the bulwark against the aggressive intentions of Iran. During Desert Storm, Israel provided invaluable intelligence, an umbrella of air cover for military cargo, and had personnel planted in the Iraqi deserts to pick up downed American pilots.

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By lodipete, October 24, 2007 at 3:57 am Link to this comment

““We feel directly affected by Haaretz… we feel we should be directly interacting as much as possible… putting more resources into that, because of its direct effect on all of us.” I believe that Levin said she had even appealed to government bodies in Israel, including the IDF, to do something about Haaretz stories. The speech ended with the call to arms, for CAMERA members to start pressuring Haaretz. “Write, phone, challenge, speak out… Haaretz is now affecting all of us.”

The heart of Levin’s concern was the American discourse. When Haaretz was just published in Israel, CAMERA didn’t care about its statements about the occupation and the destruction of Palestinian hopes and dreams and olive trees. “This all happened in Hebrew… causing little outward impact..”

Outward impact. She means: now Haaretz is affecting U.S. opinion and foreign policy. The most important statement Levin made was that she gets the brushoff from Amos Schocken, the Haaretz publisher, but with the American media, “there is an unwritten contract between them and us.” (Verbatim transcript to come later, when I have a little time…)  An unwritten contract: to be fair to Israel, to print CAMERA members’ letters, to pick up the phone.”

AIPAC is worried about a Hebrew newspaper because they can’t control it like they do the American media.

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Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, October 23, 2007 at 8:48 pm Link to this comment

“Yes, Israel is not a burden, but a tremendous asset to the United States.”

So then what do you say to this part of the article above?

“Israel is not the strategic asset to the United States that many claim. Israel may have been a strategic asset during the Cold War, but it has become a growing liability now that the Cold War is over. Unconditional support for Israel has reinforced anti-Americanism around the world, helped fuel America’s terrorism problem, and strained relations with other key allies in Europe, the Middle East, and Asia. The United States derives some tangible strategic benefits from its close security partnership with Israel, but it pays a high price for them. On balance, it is more of a liability than an asset. “
———————————————-
Israel might be a great military asset, but it is a political and diplomatic albatross. With friends like these, who needs enemies?

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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, October 23, 2007 at 4:16 pm Link to this comment

A friendly country?

Ask the relatives of those who died on the USS Liberty.

Its stange that the zionists & neocons deem Israel as “strategic” for forward basing of U.S troops supporting a myraid of bases “over there”.  I would rather see McDonald’s and Rite Aid as my assets in the region.

Its cheaper and a lot less provacative.

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By Howard, October 23, 2007 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

Jonathan Pollard was a spy; but only gave info to a friendly country, Israel.  Which most likely used the info for its Middle east enemies. No proof has been announced or determined that it went to Russia. Or harmed any agents.
  Unlike other spies, that gave the info Directly to Russia and then sought and received sanctuary in Russia itself. Those guys gave away the farm and secrets to our enemy (at that time during the Cold War ). Some of those who did not get away have already been released from their sentences.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, October 23, 2007 at 1:36 pm Link to this comment

Jonathan Pollard is a convicted Israeli spy and a former United States Naval civilian intelligence analyst. Pollard pleaded guilty and was convicted on one count of spying for Israel, receiving a life sentence in 1986 with a recommendation against parole. Israel publicly denied that Pollard was an Israeli spy until 1998, when he was granted Israeli citizenship.

Pollard provided Israel with the names of Amerivan agents in the Soviet Union who were later traded to the Soviet Union by Israel and a number of key CIA agents were executed as a result. Seymour Hersh in The New Yorker claims that “a number of officials strongly suspect that the Israelis repackaged much of Pollard’s material and provided it to the Soviet Union in exchange for continued Soviet permission for Jews to emigrate to Israel,“and that” a significant percentage of Pollard’s documents, including some that described the techniques the American Navy used to track Soviet submarines around the world, was of practical importance only to the Soviet Union”

Pollard’s superiors at the Navy Field Operational Office in Washington, D.C. grew suspicious of Pollard’s conduct. Stacks of classified documents unrelated to his work were repeatedly found in his office. The FBI was soon called in to investigate, and they arrested Pollard in November 1985. Any hopes of keeping the scandal under wraps were dashed when Pollard attempted to avoid arrest by requesting asylum at the Israeli embassy, as originally ordered by his Israeli handlers from Lekem (his controller was Rafi Eitan, former head of Lekem.) The Israeli embassy nevertheless refused to grant Pollard and his wife asylum, and Pollard was subsequently apprehended by the FBI. At the time, Israel publicly denied any connection to Pollard.

There were press reports at the time of the Camp David 2000 Summit that Clinton had offered to pardon and release Pollard as an inducement to then-Prime minister Ehud Barak to enter into an agreement with the Palestinians, but nothing ever came of it. There were also rumors that Pollard was among the many whom Clinton considered for Presidential pardon on his last day in office, January 20,2001.

The latest Israeli request for pollard’s release made in new York on September 14, 2005 was again declined by Bush. A request on pollard’s behalf that he be designated a Prisoner of Zion was rejected by the High Court of Justice of Israel on january 16, 2006. Another appeal for intervention on Pollard’s behalf was rejected by the High Court on June 8, 2006.

Pollard & Israel’s spying has caused the deaths of many American agents! This zionist monster loyalty was not to America, but to a foreign country…Israel. He needs to pay for his damn spying and the deaths of our fellow Americans; He belongs in prison til he rots. This is only one of many spying affairs by Israel on the U.S.

NO ONE SHOULD BE SURPRISED THAT GW BUSH WILL PARDON THIS ZIONNIST ISRAELI MONSTER…RIGHT BEFORE HE LEAVES HIS CORRUPTIVE RECORD AND OFFICE. 

Take a look and watch “Spy Jonathan Pollard” caught on tape. Surveillance video from 1985 shows American “Rabid Zionist” stealing secrets for Israel.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15222134/

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By Howard, October 23, 2007 at 12:36 pm Link to this comment

INHERIT THE WIND:  Right on man !  WEll said. Also liked the comment about the ‘bigoted’ web sites !

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By Inherit The Wind, October 23, 2007 at 10:34 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

PatrickHenry on 10/23 at 2:31 am
(236 comments total)

IYW aka Windbag,

Re: #108870

I forgot you were the judge of all commentary presented here of whats true and what isn’t, my bad.

I guess it an easy standard to go by, anything critical of Israel and its supporters is Nazi, Aryan, bigoted and anything that buys into their line of shit is good.

Don’t like it, too bad, present something to back your arguements.

The only facts you present are that you are an apoligist and not a very good one.  As always, you use insults, name calling, innuendo, hallmarks of a mediocre zionist media man.

Ok, DavidDuke,
Here’s one fact for you:  The reason I knew that “newspaper article” was a phony was because the “reporter” (with Jewish sur-name, Margolis) referred to the Pollard the spy as “The Jewish Dreyfus”.  I find it IMPOSSIBLE for a Jewish reporter and analyst NOT to know that Dreyfus was THE Jewish Dreyfus himself.  Clearly you missed that.

L’Affaire Dreyfus was used by French bigots (not much different than you) to justify attacks on Jews in the late 19th century.  Dreyfus was a Jewish army officer accused and convicted of spying for Germany. Emile Zola (the writer) was infuriated by it and wrote his famous article, “J’Accuse!” in defense of Dreyfus.

Dreyfus served many years in prison before the false evidence was revealed. His conviction was overturned and he was FULLY restored to his rank in the French Army.

Dreyfus himself was “The Jewish Dreyfus”.

Fact.

Here’s another: none of the websites you cited were legitimate news sources, like the NYTimes, WaPo, BBC, Times of London, Le Monde, Die Welt, or even Fox Noise. They were ALL like Robert’s citations—bigoted blog sites putting out garbage to justify their hate-filled “opinions”.

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By Howard, October 23, 2007 at 8:32 am Link to this comment

Well, for starters; Israel did not attack Lebanon. Hezballah came across the border into Israel and killed 8 soldiers and kidnapped 2 soldiers. They have yet to be returned.
  Quite a goo numbers of missles came into Israel. What would we have done if terrorists came into the U.S. from Mexico or Canada and done that to us ?

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, October 23, 2007 at 7:17 am Link to this comment

Americans and not Israelis should be our top priority

by Mary MacElveen

“Most likely, I will get emails coming into me stating that I am anti-Semitic for what I am about to say within this piece.  Nothing can be farther from the truth since I always separate the faith of Judaism from the government of Israel.  That has been my record in writing any critical piece directed at that country and ours supporting it.
 
If I thought the quotes coming from Frederick W. Kagan and former Secretary of State Madeline Albright made my blood boil over and evaporate into steam in my previous article, one person’s quote leaves me speechless.  In fact, there are no words to describe how I feel.  Okay, livid is one.
 
Our current Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice had this to say when it comes to any aid given to the State of Israel, “In the spirit of Yom Kippur, the United States will not hold Israel to any agreements obligating them to accept Dollars as payment for their foreign aid. We will translate our obligations into Euros or whatever currency that best fits Israel’s needs”
 
She goes onto say, “We need to place our Israeli obligations at the top of our national priority list. Israel should not suffer any inconvenience due to currency fluctuations”
 
First of all, I think we the taxpayers of the United States have given Israel more than enough money in aid over the years. In fact we roughly give them $2 billion in aid every single year as many Americans go hungry, are without health care and live out on our streets.  I do think that the American people are suffering.
 
To Secretary Rice, the American people should be at the top of our priority list or have you forgotten that? Try selling this line to those still feeling the affects from Katrina.  Those who felt Katrina’s wrath were left behind by this administration. They could certainly use that $2 billion dollars. So could many other areas affected by natural disasters within our own country.
 
So far we have not held the State of Israel responsible for much of anything much less any agreement.  In a previous piece I wrote, “The west openly imposed sanctions on Iraq when they failed to comply with resolutions handed down by the United Nations, yet the West does not hold Israel responsible when they do not comply with numerous UN resolutions.
 
In my previous piece discussing how this war in Iraq is a Ponzi scheme, I clarified for my readers that the sanctions we imposed on Iraq caused the deaths of one million Iraqis. We did this as a result of their non-compliance to numerous U.N. resolutions.
 
It’s no wonder why we are not trusted by the Arab world especially when we hold them to a higher standard than Israel.  This has been our major foreign policy disaster for years now which even predates the Bush administration.
 
When is anyone in Washington, D.C. going to say to Israel, “You start playing by the rules everyone else is expected to and then we might talk”? Nah, it will not happen when AIPAC is a predominant force in our political system
 
Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Levni had the hubris to say that this aid be paid in Euros instead of dollars.  Note to Ms. Levni: This American citizen really does not feel like paying your country period.  It is time to stand on your own two feet.
 
We also aided them last year as the State of Israel pummeled Lebanon we gave them $280 million dollars to fuel their fighter jets and $48 million to pay for a Palestinian power plant that they took out.  If they felt they needed to attack, they should have paid for it themselves.  I felt sickened beyond belief knowing that Lebanese blood was on my hands.  To the good people of Lebanon, I am truly sorry.
 
Included in this past piece of mine, are pictures relaying to all the suffering of the Lebanese when Israel attacked them.  I will not give any warnings since I want to open your eyes.”

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_mary_mac_070924_note_to_condoleezza_.htm

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By Howard, October 23, 2007 at 4:03 am Link to this comment

Jewish groups are influential.  They also largely agree that the United States should support Israel. But the notion that these groups have anything like a uniform agenda, and that U.S. policy on Israel and the Middle East is the result of their influence , is simply wrong.

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By PatrickHenry, October 23, 2007 at 3:31 am Link to this comment

IYW aka Windbag,

Re: #108870

I forgot you were the judge of all commentary presented here of whats true and what isn’t, my bad.

I guess it an easy standard to go by, anything critical of Israel and its supporters is Nazi, Aryan, bigoted and anything that buys into their line of shit is good.

Don’t like it, too bad, present something to back your arguements.

The only facts you present are that you are an apoligist and not a very good one.  As always, you use insults, name calling, innuendo, hallmarks of a mediocre zionist media man.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 23, 2007 at 2:49 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

BenedictArnold—or is it DavidDuke? tries to hide that he’s a nazi/KKK troll but continues to reveal his TRUE bigotry with absurd racist statements like the one here:

Judaism is most likely the oldest organized religion in the world, its families have accumulated wealth and knowledge over millennia so much so it has trancended from a religion into an ethnicity with all the stereotypes that come with being an ethnic caste.

I’m Jewish and my dad had a small business.  His SOLE financial wizardry was that when it failed, he managed to pay off all his creditors and NOT declare bankruptcy.  My wife’s father was an assistant store manager.  No great “accumulated wealth” there!  NEITHER of us grew up knowing those mythical wealthy Jews DavidDuke talks about.  The wealthiest Jews either of us knew were successful doctors (not even lawyers). None of our 4 parents or their siblings, or our 8 grandparents had a college education, and the grandparents were immigrants who came here poor, escaping the poverty of Europe. It was only OUR generation, born in the 1950’s, that finally had that precious college education, and a great cost to our families.  None of the Jewish kids I know at college had wealth either—just working-class or middle-class kids who made it into a STATE university and STILL had to take out loans and work part-time to make it.

WE ARE TYPICAL! Not this CRAP about thousands of years of accumulated wealth.  When Jews got that rich, the Christians in Medieval Europe ROBBED them!  When Jews were expelled from Spain, Portugal and England in the late 1400’s (1492 in Spain), they lost EVERYTHING but the knowledge in their heads.

Jews were forbidden to own land, have titles or practice trades. They were forbidden to form or join guilds and were ONLY allowed to practice the one trade that the Church EXPRESSLY FORBID TO CHRISTIAN—money lending.  Usuary (lending money for interest) was considered sinful, so Christians couldn’t do it. Jews aren’t supposed to do it either, but their only alternative was to starve.  Yet, with all the hypocrisy of the medieval Church and society, money-lending (banking) was the CRUCIAL oil for economic machinery to function.

Naturally, with all the “fairness” of “Christian Charity”, Jews were condemned for practicing the only trade they were allowed—as “DavidDuke” still does—even though it was a trade that was crucial.

So, when “DavidDuke” attempts to appear “reasonable”, he’s engaging is a classic American nazi recruiting tactic:  Don’t call ‘em “niggers”, talk about “crime and welfare”. Don’t call ‘em “dirty Jews”, talk about “internationalist finance”. 

Code words.

The dumbest? Referring to the spy Pollard as “The Jewish Dreyfus”.  Figured out what’s wrong with that yet, DavidDuke?

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By PatrickHenry, October 22, 2007 at 7:05 pm Link to this comment

Tony,

The imperialists, aka Military industrial complex, are the easiest to figure out….greed, its suprising how many good church going folk, vestry members (my inlaws) work at Defense contractors such as Lockeed and Raytheon designing the next generation kill-all.  So much about beating swords into plowshares.

I am all too familiar with colleges and universities like Pat Robertson’s Regent University with the inordinate amount of their alumni serving in the executive branch of government.

I disagree with your point that religious and ethnic identity doesn’t define these certain lobbies, it does.  The core membership is jewish, yes, there are ancillary zio-christian organizations who in my opinion want the prophesy they read about in the “good book” fullfilled in their lifetime and are determined to make it so.  Very dangerous people.

Judaism is most likely the oldest organized religion in the world, its families have accumulated wealth and knowledge over millennia so much so it has trancended from a religion into an ethnicity with all the stereotypes that come with being an ethnic caste.

I would like to see more jewish americans use their talents and be more vocal in their protest, somehow I feel it won’t happen, blood is thicker than water.

I salute Mssrs John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt’s significant effort as I did President Carters book on this escalating subject.

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