Federal tax law is mostly the product of random evolution, depending on which lobbyist carries the most influence a given year. The time is overdue to remodel it through some intelligent design.

An intelligently designed federal tax system would undoubtedly be much simpler than today’s horror. And as mentioned in a recent LA Times editorial, it ought to include taxation related to environmental destruction. In fact, let’s bet that if the government attached some tax to farming ancient trees in Idaho, diverting Oregonian water away from the salmon, or opening Yellowstone to mining, it would be much easier for private outfits to make decisions without much litigation.

Love,

RE: #97367 by farmertx

Over simplification and a bit of sarcasm. 

Of course you are right. A national sales tax with some form of refund of taxes to lower income workers would be a step in the right direction.

It is estimated that 1/5 of all income goes unreported (and of course untaxed).  A sales tax is extremely difficult to avoid and the collection mechanism is already in place as most if not all states currently use a sales tax. It stands to reason that the more affluent one is the more one spends on taxable purchases consequently the more one pays in tax. This keeps the system progressive while at the same time brings heretofore non-tax paying citizens into the fold (people like contractors, plumbers, day workers, lawyers, doctors and anyone else who is paid in cash without a 1099 or W2). I’m not saying that all of the people in these occupations do not pay their taxes but when there is no reporting of income it certainly is tempting to some to hide it.

With this system the federal government could fine tune taxes from year to year with simple modifications to the sales tax rate.  No more class warfare. A lot less CPAs and IRS employees - much more efficient I believe. No more jail time for tax payers who evade the income tax.

Re:#97193 by nf on 8/27 at 9:15 pm
(84 comments total)

Just a tad of over-simplification there. We are not talking about a higher paid worker...but the overly higher paid exec’s and other who deal only with paper.
If you are willing to give up a $20/hr job to draw welfare, well…
Ideally, welfare is a safety net for those who truly need some help, not those who are too lazy to try and work.
But why should a very wealthy individual avoid taxes?
Were that person not living in and enjoying the full benefits of this country, would they still have all that wealth? Likely not.
As mentioned earlier, some other form of taxation, with many fewer loopholes and additional ones permitted only upon a national vote, seems to be the way to go.
A flat rate tax, a value added tax or a national sales tax.
Under the latter, anybody who bought anything in the US, citizen, rich/poor, tourist or alien would be paying a tax.
People at or below the poverty level could have some sort of tightly controlled ID that permits buying necessities, also tightly controlled.
The main thing is, our current system is so cumbersome and unfair (due to bribes to add loopholes) that it needs a complete overhaul.
Taxes, in some form, are needed to operate this and any other country.
The more fraud and waste that is allowed, the higher the taxes must be to provide the real services that one expects from a country.

Let me get this straight.  If your job pays more than mine, then you should pay a higer percentage of your income to the government ?  Where is the logic in that ?  This system would seem to encourage higher income people to cheat on their taxes and/or employ third parties to figure out how to pay less taxes. Very efficient. Smart. I guess I’ll just keep my low paying job and let the government confiscate the money from those that make more money and transfer it to me.  Now that’s smart.

Now whats news about only the little people paying taxes!  Its been going on for a very long time. Who wants to have all that money.  90percent have no morals what so ever.  All I want is go to work and do my job and get fair pay

Right on the money…

#97115 by ocjim on 8/27 at 10:48 am
#97081 by ocjim on 8/27 at 7:05 am
#97101 by VietnamVet on 8/27 at 9:31 am
#97114 by Misfiteye on 8/27 at 10:48 am

I wonder what you all think of the new big buyout. We had the S and L buyout in the 80s (as mentioned the Bush family was neck deep in this shit of their own creation). Now after Bush sr and Clinton allowed the mess that has become our banking system to repeat via the scandal with CDOs we are facing another buyout for investors who lost their money. How many billions of dollars of worthless CDOs will the American Treasury buy in order to prop up the investors?

Where will this money come from? Here’s a link to the GAOs latest publication regarding debt:

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07127.pdf

Here is an excerpt:
“As of September 30, 2006 and 2005, federal debt managed by BPD totaled about $8,493 billion and $7,918 billion, respectively. At the end of fiscal year 2006, debt held by the public as a percentage of the U.S. economy is estimated at 36.9 percent, compared to 34.1 percent at the end of fiscal year 2002. Further, certain trust funds (e.g., Social Security) continue to run surpluses, resulting in increased intragovernmental debt holdings. These debt holdings are backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government and represent a priority call on budgetary resources. As a result, total gross federal debt has increased 37 percent between the end of fiscal years 2002 and 2006. During fiscal year 2006, a debt issuance suspension period was invoked to avoid breaching the statutory debt limit. On March 20, 2006, legislation was enacted to raise the debt limit by $781 billion to $8,965 billion. This was the fourth occurrence since 2002 that the statutory debt limit had to be raised to avoid breaching the statutory debt limit. During that time, the debt limit has increased more than $3 trillion, from $5,950 billion in 2002 to the current limit of $8,965 billion.”

That is fiscal responsibility? Where can we afford to add more debt to buy CDOs to prop up investors?

B

http://b-political.blogspot.com/

And VietnamVet probably could also tell you that the Republicans starting with the great slumbering communicator, Reagan, with the extensive favors they lavished on the rich, brought about other vast burdens on average taxpayers while allowing predators like the siblings, Neil, Jeb, & George to ream us in various crises caused by Republican derugaltion and lax treatment of the Rich: S&L;fiasco, Enron, sub-prime fiasco, tax cuts for the rich, outsourcing. The S&L;fiasco alone cost taxpayers more than $125 billion while Neil’s friends defaulted on loan to Neil’s Silverado Savings, and Jeb did not reapy millions to Broward Savings and Loan.

There are two concepts that one must confront whenever discussing the fairness of our tax code.

1.  He who benefits most from the infrastucture of our country should pay the most.

2.  Wealth, like matter and energy, can niether be created nor distroyed. It can only be concentrated or dispersed.

I know some economists will disagree, but the economy really is a zero sum game.  The wealthy are that way because they extracted value from their employees and customers, the little people, and amassed it for themselves.  Or, they extracted value from the planet in the form of non-renewable resources, the value of which is lost forever to future generations, the little people again.

There is an old saying in the logging industry, “Old growth timber is priceless but only because it’s so cheap.” It’s another way of saying “You don’t know what you got till it’s gone”.

The tragedy is that the “Wealth Created” is so much less than the true value, the lose of which has been or will be borne by so many little people, past, present and future.

Yes, and what about that National Debt that we are leaving for our grandchildren and maybe even THEIR grandchildren. And, what has caused the vast part of that growing debt? The Republicans, those who are constantly parroting that “fiscal responsibility” song and dance.

See this link:

http://www.lafn.org/politics/gvdc/Natl_Debt_Chart.html

If you look at this site, you can see that it is/has been the Republicans, starting with Reagan, that are responsible for the vast increase in our debt, Bush 1, and now this warmonger of president continued on the same course. If you do not believe this National Debt is affecting our financial well being, consider:

1.  It is, in part, responsible for the loss of value of the US dollar against other world currencies, especially the European Euro; 45+% in only the last five years.

2.  Other nations fleeing from the US dollar as a hedge currency hasten the decline in value.

3.  Potential increase in the price of oil when oil producing countries start pricing oil in Euros, rather than dollars. (A couple have already done so, and others are considering doing so.)

4.  Some holders of our national debt are NOT our friends, China for example, and if they start calling in the debt, it could cause financial ruin for this nation.

5.  And, finally, that massive burden we are leaving our grandchildren; literally mortgaging their future because of the folly of this generation.

“We owe Japan $714.9 billion; China, $191.1 billion; the United
Kingdom, $152.5 billion; the Caribbean Banking Center, $76.2 billion;
Korea, $69.3 billion; OPEC nations, and we wonder by gasoline is so
high, OPEC nations, we have borrowed as a Nation $66.6 billion from
them. The list goes on and on. In fact, we have borrowed, this
administration has borrowed more money from foreign governments and
foreign banks in less than 5 years than the previous 42 Presidents
combined...”

You can see more at:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=725796

Don’t think that the battle is over when we get rid of the plague called Bush. The corporate takeover of America is already here. Money still rules politics. Lobbyists still writelegislation. The media is corporate and focused on celebrity news and innane superficialities. The battle for democracy has only begun.

“Only the little people...” sums up rather nicely the right-wing attitude—and increasingly the attitude of the MSM punditry. (I think we are become a “Pundocracy”.)

It is like this: Reaganites, Bushites, most Republicans, all the right-wing pundits and talkshow hosts, many “moderate” journos like Lou Dobbs, many a “Christian,” think that they are somehow better and more important than “the public,” us “little people.”

Here is how corporatitism—the idea that the wealthy are “more deserving” of the money—works:

A BOSS is one who creates jobs and generally makes the economy work by fostering the spread of wealth, therefore, the public relies on, capitalism relies on, BOSSES. Businesses are what creates wealth. Therefore, the public OWES their wealth to businesses. Therefore, the people who run the business world are repsponsible for us “little people’s” having money. Without them we would not have jobs!

We OWE THEM! They are better than us! They deserve their tax breaks!!!!! In fact, the more tax breaks THEY get the more money WE get!!!! Trickle down works!!!!! Give rich people more money so that we get more money!!! CAPITALISM.

Businessmen are better than us.

And, the Right-Wing party KNOWS this! And therefore they are better than us and they are right and they.....

On-target analysis, as far as it goes.  But, what about that missing decade, those nineties, under Clinton?  You know, when welfare was cut, and corporations still got away with paying nothing?

Thanks to the facist/repukelican party, beginning with Ronald “the brain stem” Reagan, Leona Helmsley’s philosophy about taxes is now fully codified in the IRC.

This country was founded on taxation without representation. 

The bevy of state and local property taxes, sales taxes, energy taxes, utility taxes combined with the federal versions has grown since this country was founded......exponentially.

Revolution is just what it says it is, it always comes around again.

Under Reagan the government grew bigger, the size of the budgets increased but less money was used for the infrastructure. Social security was increased and was presumably fixed for eons...never happened as promised. Clinton came to power and infrastructure suffered from cut-backs and welfare was reduced to little help for the poor. Than the Texas Turd took office and infrastructure, social security, and all social programs have been crippled. Prescription medicine Plan D was a ruse to fatten Pharma’s profits. Budget is our of control with criminal actions of the war effort. And large cuts to the rich in taxation. So what devastation will be next from our leader..dimmos or repugs, make no difference.

#96540 by farmertx on 8/23 at 9:21 am

“I am far from knowing enough to do more than put up ideas and see what flies.
If that National Sales Tax included all purchases, i.e., stocks, investments and maybe was graduated for the purchase of Luxury Items, would it make any more sense?”

Hmm well taxing stocks and investments is an interesting idea. I can hear the sucessful arguments already though...your taxing investment into the economy. [I personally feel this is false but the American people are pretty well known for believing regurgitation from pundits and other people who like to misrepresent facts for their personal gains.]

Also, people paid in stock options would cry double tax.

It is a sticky issue. Investments do need to be allowed some sort of tax free situation until realized (sold). However, the current criteria within our system is beyond farce. Graduated sales tax would still avoid taxing the wealthy due to the fact that they can (and do thus their wealth) save large portions of their income - thus avoiding taxes. However, one of the benefits I see to this system would be the inherent tax benefit of savings while the downfalls would include making big purchases even more difficult for lower income folks (cars, houses in particular).

As for “ I am far from knowing enough to do more than put up ideas and see what flies.” - If we don’t think about things and come up with new ideas aren’t we doomed to repetition? Keep thinking up new ideas and throwing em out PLEASE! It’s the only way to hope for and find effect change.

I’m a little pressed for time at the moment but have a lot more to say (of course!). Will check in later!

B

http://b-political.blogspot.com/

Re:#96528 by ~B~ on 8/23 at 7:59 am
(52 comments total)

I take your point about the sales tax not getting at the bulk of the richer folk.
I am far from knowing enough to do more than put up ideas and see what flies.
If that National Sales Tax included all purchases, i.e., stocks, investments and maybe was graduated for the purchase of Luxury Items, would it make any more sense?
I want to see a tax system that collects from everybody, not just some.
This business of placing loopholes into the Tax Code is wrong.
While “Avoiding taxes is legal/Evading taxes isn’t” is a fine thing, it doesn’t go far enough.
When corporations can earn millions and yet pay less taxes than some middle class citizen...and on a regular basis, that can’t be allowed to continue.
Businesses, the rich nor the other’s can be expected to bear the burden of taxes alone.
The key, to me, is coming up with a plan that does away with loopholes and collects taxes from everybody, including corporations.

Ugh.

“Nostalgia for New York City is a common affliction among those of us who once made our homes there.”

Ah the nostalgia of filth, greed, corruption, self centeredness, and dismissal - the mainstays of New York. The home of the Captains of Industry who are turning into the Captains of Fascism(via their control of the government).

Makes my heart flutter…

Helmsley is indeed a great example of just how great the New York mentality is. She is not alone in her beliefs.

Enough about New Sodom err York.

As for the main issue of taxes Marie is on the right path. Taxes in this nation have become “welfare for the wealthy”. A way to redistribute the wealth ... upwards. This needs to be fixed in OH so many ways.

As to #96515 by farmertx on 8/23 at 6:48 am

“A flat tax rate, or even better a National Sales Tax makes more sense.”

Neither really make more sense. Sales tax is a terrible idea - this makes taxation even more heavily on those whose entire income is spent to survive while the wealthy can get taxed on a couple % of their income. Flat tax is a great way to allow only employees to be taxed while the wealthy pay very little (as they rarely have much for “income” in the tax sense - their wealth comes from stock options, capital gains, dividends, interest and other non income gains).

Our system isn’t so much the problem as the criteria of it. We can change the tax rates and tax the wealthy very easily. It is after all the wealthy who are making the most of the country - its resources, manpower, government, infrastructure. It is they who should be taxed the most. As taxes stand now they pay very little.

Income tax isn’t the only area we lose to the wealthy either. Estate tax is a joke. When a person dies all of their stocks are valued at the date of death closing price.

Say my grandfather owned ACME shares. He bought em at $1 a share in 1957. He dies today. ACME is now at $101 a share. My grandfather has then earned $100 per $1 invested over 50 years. He never sold any shares so he never paid any capital gains (his money was allowed to keep working tax free for 50 years). Now you would expect his estate would have to pay at least capital gains right? Wrong. It is now valued at the closing price on the date of death $101. I inherit the shares and sell em at $101. As long as the estate isn’t over a certain level (4 million in 2007 I think?) I pay NO taxes. My grandfathers 50 years of earnings NEVER pay ANYTHING in taxes. Due to compounding this is an ASTOUNDING inequality that helps to ensure the wealthy stay that way ( and the poor keep paying the taxes ).

Good ole America eh!

B

http://b-political.blogspot.com/

Our Income Tax laws are so complicated, the IRS isn’t sure how to enforce some of them.
A flat tax rate, or even better a National Sales Tax makes more sense.
That way everybody pays something, based on how much they spend.
Folks with the big money think that they should pay the same tax amount as a fry cook pays.
They forget that if they weren’t living in and taking advantage of what America has to offer, they wouldn’t have that big money.
Republican’s are always ready for a raise in salary, because things cost more.
But they want taxes to go down. They don’t want the fraud and waste eliminated (thats where a lot of them get their money), they just want lower taxes.
They are unable to comprehend that when prices go up, the cost of providing Government services goes up as well.
Yes, the Government can get a price break for volume buying, but even that will go up when the next contract comes around.