Nope, Nope, Nope....not legal, and the brown one didn’t make it so. Hell, the brown one isn’t even legal.

#96844 FarmerTx:

By all means if the Brown One declared it legal,let the torture begin.*

* My lawyer will draw up a disclaimer immediately just to make sure we are covered.

#96836 by protagonia on 8/25 at 9:03 am
(1 comments total)

People in the psychology field are often more disturbed than the clients they serve.

================================
Protagonia,

Truer words than yours above, are rarely spoken. THIS is a major problem. It’s horrific to acknowledge, but most of the people I know in the field are indeed DISTURBED, and in some cases very seriously disturbed. And, that’s not “new”.

IOW, this isn’t some new thing that we’re seeing as in other professions, where there just doesn’t seem to be the same training, professionalism or ethics. This has long been a problem, (because the field seems to attack these types of people who use it to work through their own issues) and quite frankly, I’ve witnessed some serious damage inflicted by these people.

So, there’s a problem with vetting these people, before handing out a license to practice. I don’t know the solution, but we have to find one.

#96834 by Paul Cardwell on 8/25 at 10:54 am
(Unregistered commenter)

Paul, that is typical double talk. We see a lot of it.
Especially since that is the prime language of Shrubs’ version of the GOP.

#96584 by purplewolf on 8/23 at 3:04 pm
(88 comments total)

I see where you are coming from and can’t really disagree, except to add the disclaimer that it has to be legal.
And the Brown One has ruled that it is legal. So…

People in the psychology field are often more disturbed than the clients they serve.

After reading comments posted after mine, I had this very sickening thought that maybe we ought to find a way for our returning soldiers to get psychological help from psychologists OTHER THAN ASSOCIATED WITH THE MILITARY.  What would they do to those who might really need help!

I’m not big on psychiatry or psychologists in general WITH GOOD REASON.  However, there are people who care and I don’t care what they do for a living.  Which of course means they could be a psychologist and actually be a good person too.  Sadly, this is not usually the case.  If you’d like to read a great book on this: “Unacknowledged Freud” written by a group of WHAT....psychologists and psychiatrists!  Good Read.

#96521 farmertx:
I believe in torture-for all those who wish to cause death and destruction to the nation(USA)-G.Worthless weedboy,dicko,snarl drove,conned headlice, speedless gonzales and all the other creeping incopetents that make up this bunch, current and past, just to start with as they are the biggest threats to America and have caused death and destruction all over the world.No more executive priviledge, isn’t the word executive based on the word execute? As in terminate i.e. a lifecycle, or an action of some type going on. You get the idea.

Try to look on the bright side here. I know I’ve certainly entertained some elaborate fantasies involving Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Kristol and all the rest grouped together in a large circular tiled room. There is one large drain in the middle. There is one small shoot for bread and water dispensing. I’ll let your imagination take over from here but I bet you have an idea of all the fun we could have watching these criminals squirm and writh and interact with each other on a “new” level.

Of course torture should be taken off the table and impeachment should be the centerpiece on the table. But if 21st century America is going to endorse torture we should see to it that the endorsers have a first-hand opportunity to experience the fruits of what they endorse.

If the reasons for continuing APA involement with, and by extention endorsement of government interogators are money and access to internships, that is truly sad. 
I was able to see some of the comments from the APA convention on Democracy Now!.  I beleive even if taken at face value that if the APA wants to insure the saftey of detainees with their presence, that inevitably the interrogators will use them for cover for pushing the envelope on interogation. 
I am one of those who believe in the Geneva conventions prohibtions against the threat of and the actual torture of detainess.
A powerful messege could have sent by the APA if they had passed their resolution that the government interogators would have to stand on there own if they are going to continue in their illegal practices of interogation, torture or the threat thereof.

Re:#96489 by cyrena on 8/22 at 11:52 pm
(874 comments total)

First, welcome back.
I am one who has an idea in my head, and then don’t fully explain it in words. And, at that, you might still disagree with my opinion.
I was not advocating torture in any form, when I said harsh interrogation methods.
To me, harsh interrogation means sleep deprivation, small rooms with poor or no ventilation (not the cell, the interrogation room itself) and two or more interrogators who ask non-stop questions.
Also, this wasn’t being advocated for police departments, but in order to protect a nation from those who wish to cause death and destruction to that nation.
Given your experiences, I can see where my comment would raise all sorts of red flags.
Granted, we can’t trust the Shrub to assign responsibility for such things to responsible people.
But, assuming we had a real President, I would support efforts short of causing bodily and mental damage to a person, to try and find out what is needed to stop or apprehend those who would do us harm.
This is a complex issue and no generalization can cover it. But I hope I have made my opinion a tad clearer to you.

Thanks again, Amy.  The APA has made their choice; I now make mine.  I will no longer will be associated with any organization in which a psychologist has a role.

#96401 by farmertx on 8/22 at 12:12 pm

There is a very fine line between harsh interrogation methods and torture.
Harsh methods have produced results sometimes.
Torture will get you any response you want, not the real truth.
=====================
Farmertx, I have to vehemently disagree with this one. There is NOT a fine line at all, between harsh interrogation methods and torture. They are the same, and neither is acceptable, nor does it “work”. And on that, there HAVE been a number of studies.

There’s lots of info available on this, because it has been endlessly and passionately debated in public discourse in the past 5 years, and that’s because dick cheney has been so doggedly committed to employing these tactics.

And, I’m not exaggerating on that. The laws have been tilted, ignored, re-written, just to accommodate cheney’s overwhelming need and desire to “work the dark side” as he would say.

So, lets be clear on that. When we talk about torture at Gitmo, and Abu Graib, and all of the black sites that we don’t know about, we’re not talking about “harsh interrorgation”, we’re talking about TORTURE. These “Torture Memos”, (a good place to check out some of the ways around the constitution) was authored by Gonzo, way back before he got appointed to AG. And, there are others. John Yoo...he helped as well. Rumsfeld was a huge fan too...matter of fact, he was the top of the chain of command on the Abu Ghahib torture scam, and the things they’ve done in the name of “interrogation” cannot be called anything other than torture, and they simply are NEVER effective at gaining any useful information.

Needless to say, that is particularly the case when the detainee doesn’t HAVE any useful information, which has been the case with 97% of those that were captured and taken to Guantanamo Bay. How much can you torture a guy for information that he doesn’t have? And, what would be the outcome of a “harsh” interrogation, or torture, when the person doesn’t know anything? Well, they make something up, whatever the torturers want to hear. The interrogator-torturers go away happy because they “got” something, and the detainee is at least temporarily given a break in the ordeal, once he figures out whatever they want to hear, and the sooner the better, since they don’t know anything anyway.

Ergo...it’s not useful. The only thing it’s likely to do, (in addition to killing them, or making them permanently crazy)is to create more hatred on their part.

There is absolutely NO useful purpose to this kind of interrogation. Not to mention that it’s a violation of the highest laws of the land.

And so far, there has yet to be any evidence that this torture has produced any information from or about terrorists that have planned, or may be planning, any terrorists acts.

They finally got KSM to talk, and when he did, he confessed to EVERYTHING. If it was done, (according to him), he’s the one who did it, putting himself in different parts of the globe at the same time. He too was tortured. And, what good is any of his “information” if he’s now crazy as a loon, because they’ve been torturing him for so long? Look what they did to Padilla. They literally destroyed the man’s mind. He’s GONE.

Nope. Nope. Nope. It never “works”. It can only cause permanent damage.

One of the reasons the APA voted not to withdraw psycologists from interrogations has alot to do with Money.

The APA recieves large amounts of money from its association with the military. Futhermore a very large amount of its apprenticeships are done thru the military.

So instead of drawing up alternative measures to validate expertise in thier field and avoid collusion with the use of coersive tactics used for interrogation, the APA decieded to continue accepting all that money and bugger their appearance of profesionalism or ethics, as the AMA and psychciatrists did.

Remember how well the German medical professionals fell into line with Der Furor?

Hypocratic schmipocratic? What the hell, my careers on the line here people!

Everybody say: SPANISH INQUISITION, good, now louder. The shades of SALEM are upon us. History once again repeats itself.

Looks like Amnesty International will keep the USA as a good account for some time!

Love,

Hi. Please don’t ask about the handle. Let’s just say it’s an opportunity to go beyond the obvious, to embody the heart of things always. That way, the truth is so much easier to dig.

According to Dr. Lloyd DeMause, the psycho-historian,
the roots of war, violent assault, and torture can all be traced to the effects of unresolved child abuse, in all its forms.

Violence is learned. When over half the population is a victim of child abuse, and no one is openly talking about it, I call that a nation in serious denial.

Imagine a lifetime of coping with such woundedness, repressing, denying, projecting, identifying...it becomes an unconscious habit. So, how much easier to deny an unjust war, youth crime, BushCo, etc.

It makes sense seen in the light of a brighter truth.
Right now as you read this, literally millions of innocent children are victims of rape, beating, emotional and verbal abuse, neglegt...RIGHT NOW.

Can you see the connection between the violence done to dependant children, and the violnce that’s justified in the mind of those children grown to adults?

There is a very brave film-maker, Edward Blackoff, (Shazzam Productions)who has made a documentary on child abuse. It’s called Incest: A Family Tragedy. By interviewing perpetrators, victims, law enforcement, and therapeutic experts, he has painted a chilling and de-mystefying portrait of the shadow lurking every other one of us.

Let’s look clearly at the roots of these “syptoms,” such as torture and wars of greed. The fact that healers use their talents to harm others is nothing new. It mmerely points out the insanity of the mind and system that behaves so.

Good job Amy-also good job on hardball today.

The Shrub! Policy! Ha!
The blame for torture rests primarily upon the interogator. The blaming of Bush or Policy Makers is theexact same ideology that makes said interogator feel that he or She (most likely he) is not actually accountable for his or her actions.
So long as we blame politicians for the actions of the myriad individuals who actually enact their policies, then we are merely empowering the power dynamic that allows such attrocity to happen.
Politicians hold only the power that individuals willingly surrender. Individuals opt to ignore the weight of accountability upon their shoulders, thus participate in the illusion that their actions are the fault of politicians. To continue to blame politicians is just to further this illusion, this denial, upon which all organized social sadism and oppresion is based. An individual commits a certain act and we all point to Bush. Nothing is more empowering than blame.

Those who endorse and carry out torture do so for authoritarian-type manifestations they have of themselves.  This gives them a FEELING of superiority and power.  All abusers crave a SENSE of power and superiority, real or imagined and will attempt to humiliate those who show them up for what they are.

Remember Bush, laughing about the democrats “just say no” policy (which wasn’t even true), “cut and run”, and his attempt at bashing people who “don’t have the stomach for war”.  They try to denigrate the “good” and glorify the “bad”.  They put on a personna of “toughness”, but ALWAYS protect themselves.  Most of us would just call these people “nut-jobs”.

Anyone who would engage in torture is NOT using logic or reason and is more likely than not, emotionally unstable.  The fact that someone considers themselves a “professional” means nothing.  The fact that a whole organization considers some aspects of torture reasonable is suspect indeed!  It isn’t news that psychologists and psychiatrists have been “improvising” for years and calling it FACT.

Psychology is a psuedo-science therefore it’s whole theory is based on best guesses and perceptions, not FACTS.  If you need facts try the neuro sciences.

#96412 by the pre on 8/22 at 12:59 pm
(3 comments total)

Damn good post. Simple, direct and conclusive.

science: a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws-

interrogate: to ask a question or questions of (a person), esp. to seek answers or information which the person questioned considers personal or secret
-to examine by questions
-question formally

tortuosity: state of being tortuous
-twisted form or course, crookedness

tortuous: full of twists, turns, or bends; twisting, winding, or crooked
-not direct or straightforward, as in a course of procedure, thought, speech, or writing
-deceitfully indirect or morally crooked, as proceedings methods, policy

torture: the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty
-a method of inflicting such pain
-often, tortures, the pain or suffering caused or undergone
-extreme anguish of body or mind; agony…
-to distort or pervert

Webster’s Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, 1983, 1989

What do you get when you combine science, interrogation, and torture?

Twisted, crooked, distorted, and perverted thinking i.e. US domestic and foreign policy.

the pre

Louise has a valid point about stopping and thinking about what history should have taught us.
Strap Shrub in a chair, give me a six pack of Coca Cola and he’ll be confessing to nailing Christ to the cross.
There is a very fine line between harsh interrogation methods and torture.
Harsh methods have produced results sometimes.
Torture will get you any response you want, not the real truth.
‘Course, as one poster suggested, if this is such a great idea and isn’t that harmful, I am sure the Shrub, being so macho and all, would be willing to undergo a session or three to demonstrate its effectiveness. Then again…

Members of the administration, like most republicans have never had an original idea. Of course that puts them in good company, because few ever do.

The sad part about this story though, is the willingness to borrow ideas that history has proved over and over again fail.

Like torture.

All the Dr. Sherwood’s [interesting name choice] and attorney generals and eager to please [people with money] congressers in the world can never change the inevitable outcome.

Failure.
Big time failure.
Failure with a permanent black marker.

And all the re-writing and altering of history can not change the truth the world sees, or restore lost lives, ruined lives and any other horrible thing we daily see as a result of the bad leadership that will forevermore identify the presidency of George W. Bush.

I think that the presence of psychologists is not entirely for either the well-being or pain of the victim of torture. I believe that by having a “medical professional” on hand, perhaps present, or in some way overseeing the process, those who administer the the process are relieved of guilt and coarse anxiety ove their actions.
Remember those infamous experiments in the 60s where the subjects of the experiments believed they were administering electric shocks to strangers in an tesst to judge the affect of negative reinforcemnet on memeory. There were no actual test subjuects receiving the shocks, just actors screaming and begging for reprieve, while the men in the white coats said it was okay to procede.
In mostpersons already submissive to authority, conscience and any sense of accountablity for their part in torture is swiftly handed over to anyone in a uniform, especially a doctors uniform. If the doc says procede, the person administering the torture feels okay about it..off the hook karmicly, or whatever.
Maybe that’s more the roll these nazi shrinks play, at least in part. Their very presence is a sort of defense mechanism for those who administer great pain for a small pay check.
Remember in “Brazil” when the G-Man played by Michael Palin would put on a doctor’s coat and a mask before administering torture, then give himself electro-shock afterwards.

Purplewolf
Damn but that is one fine idea.
And leaders quit leading the charge once leader’s became less of a man.
Right now, we have the least of a man as a leader. Hopefully, it will have to go up from here.

Since all this unethical torture was ordered from the top idiots running this country(into the ground) and the main leader claiming how close to God he is and he is doing Gods work, he should be the logical choice to test run this whole scenerio on first.Let the shrinks stand back and watch him scream, better yet let them devise ways to enhance the torture. That way he would have knowledgable insight as to what is really happening and not some watered down version of it. Lets take him,the same way he has people abducted,subject him to the exact same types of torture for the same duration,no special treatment,and then see if he still wants to continue with this abuse and what the results will be someday, provided they do not kill all the abductees first, especially if they ever get releases from these houses of torture and pain.After a few months to years then ask him again if he thinks this is ethical treatment to anyone whom he feels opposes him and if they really deserve this for not always agreeing with him. We know not everyone he plans to have abducted is a terrorist, according to Weed, everyone who does not agree with him is,and therefore deserving of torture in his world.God would be so proud. All the Weed wants is to be king of the world. Remember in history when kings went into battle on the front line ahead of all their followers. Why did that change?

No job too dirty for a scientist.

Sadly, in our greed driven society, money will trump ethics for too many.