Even after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Tojo was determined to keep on fighting:

http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080812/ap_on_re_as/japan_tojo_s_diary

That clearly indicates the bombing was barely enough to prevent the inevitable bloodbath that an invasion of the Japanese homeland would have entailed.  To quote Tojo:

“We now have to see our country surrender to the enemy without demonstrating our power up to 120 percent,” Tojo wrote on Aug. 13, 1945, just two days before Japan gave up. “We are now on a course for a humiliating peace, or rather a humiliating surrender.”

It is only fortunate that cooler heads prevailed, mainly the Emperor, and they surrendered.  To condemn necessary implements of war simply because they kill civilians as “terrorism” is completely irrational.  Would it be better if, as can be technically accomplished now, only “surgical” bombing is performed, in order to specifically target known military or paramilitary assets and minimize civilian casualties?  Sure.  But during the ending phase of the War in the Pacific, that wasn’t even possible technologically.  Even if it were, does anyone realistically think that the Japanese, whose leader, Prime Minister Tojo, could defy even the atomic onslaught, would be impressed by such niceties?  ナンセンス!

108354 by tentaculata on 10/19 at 3:52 pm: “...This is a brave, powerful, and heartbreaking article.  Robert Scheer courageously names the atomic bomb for what it is - the ultimate terrorist weapon….”

Thanks for that, TC. My last two posts were deleted some time back and have amazingly resurfaced after Scheer’s finally confronting his “technical” error. By the way, he is also a little out of date with the “A-bomb” which was replaced by the H-bomb in 1950. We now have Bush threatening the entire human race and the future of the planet with these creations of the then “Dr. Strangelove”, Edward Teller, as did madman USAF general Curtis Le May.

This is a brave, powerful, and heartbreaking article.  Robert Scheer courageously names the atomic bomb for what it is - the ultimate terrorist weapon.  The documentary mentioned by Scheer, White Light/Black Rain, includes a clip from a propaganda film made for the US Army about the Japanese.  It tells the Americans that the Japanese adhere to a primitive moral code, are fanatics who believe they will ascend straight to heaven to live with the gods when they die, and while they have modern technology, their thinking is 2000 years out of date.  It sounds curiously similar to what is being said about Muslims today.

GEORGE BERNARD SHAW
“I never thought much of the courage of a lion tamer. Inside the cage he is at least safe from (the American) people.”

#95260 by Blueboy1938 on 8/15 at 5:03 pm: “...As for excusing the Japanese for Pearl Harbor because they were “provoked,” that is no more supportable than excusing the terrorists because they perceive the U. S. to have caused all the problems in the world…”

Oops, I seem to have inadvertently posted your paragraph as being mine at the end of the first part of my reply,  Blueboy1938, although I went on to quote it in the second part. Sorry about any confusion…...  (#95324 by Douglas Chalmers on 8/15 at 10:44 pm)

By the way, you were quite wrong about “...the defense of the home islands (of Japan) would be the same as what Churchill planned for Hitler in Britain…”, too. Britain would have been a relative walkover for the Germans then - the Brits hardly even had anything to fight with.  Their biggest mistake of the war was not to follow through - and their subsequent major mistake was to invade Russia.

Its all part of the fantasy (a) of what people wanted to believe, and (b) what they are told or led to believe. Most probably the same for the Japanese who were a defeated nation by then and the civilian population were as sick of their government as Americans are of their Bush-Cheney gang now. Also, both are island nations and not at all like the European experience in WW2.

#Quote Blueboy1938: “...Would it have been better if nuclear devices were never used?  Certainly.  As Carl Sagan pointed out, any extraterrestrial civilization that we might ultimately receive communications from would have had to resolve the “nuclear problem” and survive beyond incinerating their whole planet….”———————————>

Obviously, humans don’t count for very much in the greater scheme of things and have failed over and over again to advance significantly either psychologically or spiritually on this Earth. Material progress counts for naught when all we still are is as primitive within ourselves as we once were when we slept in caves.

That is no recipe for survival once the clubs and spears are exchanged for nuclear weapons. We have had plenty of time to learn yet have not done so. One would have to ask why we have chose to continually repeat our mistakes? Today is one last chance…...

Even the lessons of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are now again being ignored. “Bomb, bomb .......bomb Iran” is not a happy or clever tune and it is the criminally insane who are singing it. Doing to others what you think couldn’t possibly happen to yourself is simply stupid. Same with Pakistan!

But people in the USA are following a leader who advocates exactly that kind of thing despite the consequences. It is really a very primitive country whose people think that they are superior to everybody else and have some imagined right to rule the world.

“Apocalypse Now” is not just a movie. It is what happens during and after a nuclear war. So, too, Armageddon won’t necessarily be fought on “the plains of Meggido” but the plains of the Punjab or the hills and valleys of Iran. Only the contaminating effects will quickly become global. Even the lessons of Windscale (Sellarfield) and Chernobyl seem to have been forgotten!

Again, the earthquake in Japan recently and the closure of the world’s largest nuclear power plant was one last chance. According to the news reports, 24 million people in and around Tokyo now owe their lives to the simple fact that the epicentre of the earthquake was a mere few kilometers further away. Its time to wake up to the implications - or it really will be too late!

To continue/——->>>
#Quote Blueboy1938: “...As for excusing the Japanese for Pearl Harbor because they were “provoked,” that is no more supportable than excusing the terrorists because they perceive the U. S. to have caused all the problems in the world, let alone in the Middle East, and because their reprehensible acts against civilians are not quite as “bad” as Hiroshima/Nagasaki ....why don’t we just say that Spain caused Pearl Harbor by the conquest of the Philippines in 1565-71…”——————>

Of course, starting their half of a world war was not excusable but, if you had lived in Japan 50 years earlier, you would most probably have felt the same towards the Americans and Europeans as people in the USA felt towards certain “unknown combatants” on 9th September, 2001. Neither did it excuse Japan’s subsequent “reprehensible acts” especially in China and Mongolia but how is that any different from what the US has been doing since 1991 in Iraq and surrounding areas?

A million now dead in Iraq and another four million people displaced??? Is that not another atrocity? Dispute the figures if you wish but that includes the deaths by starvation and disease which were a direct result of those blockades and embargos when they were deemed “convenient” by the USA. What excuse is there, really? Is this then not the depredations of the miserable US version of Japan’s “greater co-prosperity sphere” imperialist ambitions?

#Quote Blueboy1938: “...the “Doomsday Clock” fell back to “17 minutes to midnight” based on the end of the Cold War and subsequent major nuclear arms reductions by the U. S. and the reestablished Russia.  However, it’s back to “5 minutes to midnight” based on Korean and Iranian nuclear arms ambitions and attainments…”

Ahh, the Koreans had their country broken in two by the US-led military invasion in 1950. They were not even combatants in any conflict until then (lets not go into the minor details). They became the victims of the US desire to “restrain” neighboring Russia and China even though they both had legitimate involvement with Korea along common borders.

The USA was an outright invader then and all of its so-called wars since have been essentially the same.  Again, if you were living in N.Korea since the mid-1950’s, you would have been alarmed at the continued presence of US military forces and troop build-up in S.Korea. Its no wonder that they worked towards developing a nuclear weapon. They were literally pushed into it!

That is not comparable with Iran and the nuclear industry there is no different from any nuclear power plant anywhere else in the world. What is more, the Busheher plant is actually being built by the Russians. It is designed to produce electricity. That is very different from the Demona reactor in the Negev in Israel which was designed from the outset to produce fissile material for nuclear weapons! http://peace4palestine-housewife4palestine.blogspot.com/2006/04/israels-silent-nuclear-attack-revealed.html

If you want a nuclear war, allow the USA or Israel to bomb Iran (a pre-emptive nuclear strike!) and see what happens. Russia will bomb (nuke) Israel in retaliation. Would the Christian Zionists in Texas then demand that Russia be ‘nuked’ as they did when they screamed for Iran to be ‘nuked’ before during the 1970’s oil crisis merely becuase of the price of oil? Wasn’t that another “inconvenience” caused by the US administration, then?

#95260 by Blueboy1938 on 8/15 at 5:03 pm: “...the Japanese were ...liberating the Philippines and ...Hawaii from the imperialist U. S. ...they still precipitated the war in the Pacific with their attack on Pearl Harbor…”

Oh, yes, you are gettting a little closer to Truth with your ‘fine-cut’ version, Blueboy1938, but do’t go too fast, will you - you could still choke, ha ha. Thank you though, for your interest in continuing.

#Quote Blueboy1938: “...The island capture strategy ...to acquire bomber bases closer to the Japanese Islands ...to accommodate the more limited range of the time.  It was even more important to bring fighter cover into effective range….”———>

Never mind what the Japanese thought, the fact was that the US was in a hurry and the military command was willing to sacrifice as many US soldiers’ lives as it took to get control. The reason was, as you perceive, the main mission to bomb Japan - whether that was still necessary or not. After the fire-bombing of Tokyo, though, the two nuclear bombs were really excessive as well as unnecessary!

#Quote Blueboy1938: “...the decision was made to capture Iwo Jima in what became one of the costliest encounters of the war. ....The heavy losses on Iwo Jima ....an underestimation of the Japanese force strength ....“Simply blockading” islands such as Iwo Jima ...tied up scarce Naval forces. .....blockades would have been extremely counterproductive, strategically as well as tactically….”——->

The error on the part of the US command was that they were in a hurry (for political reasons - mainly domestic) as well as supposedly underestimating the Japanese occupation or resisitance. Blockading would have been far less costly in terms of lives on both sides but you still somehow seem to see the “inconvenience” or “cost” to the US military as some kind of excuse or imperative. That’s nonsense - but it is typical of such situations throughout military history especially whenever an empire is involved (I mean the US imperialistic empire!).

#Quote Blueboy1938: “...an intent to awe China and the Soviet Union as well as the Japanese.  .....better to have abstained from the use of nuclear weapons?  Humanitarily, yes, of course.  Would China and the Soviet Union have forsworn their entry into the nuclear arms race if we had? ......Either way, the world would have looked pretty much the same after the war…”———->

The key here is that there was already a “nuclear arms race ” and that was the culmination since the 1930’s in Germany and the discovery of the atomic secrets in physics of uranium, etc etc. The Nazis were onto it immediately and the Russians and the US/Allies both sought to grab whoever and whatever they could in 1944 when they carved up the defeated Germany. That was ther real and only reason for the race to Berlin!

It played out in the Pacific and the USA came out ahead. Sunsequently, the race went on as the US had captured Von Braun and other German rocket scientists who were coerced into working for the Americans in the US. If that had not happened, the US would have lost the next and major phase of the nuclear arms race. They were only temporarily ahead in Korea - but not doing anybody any favors.

I’m sorry, but the world did turn out to be a very different place then and that was the beginning of the cold war! The fateful war in Vietnam was a direct result of cold war fears and especially the presumed “domino effect” of disgruntled smaller nations coming under the successive influence of an alternative empire. US military hegemony then reigned supreme - but only just.

As for excusing the Japanese for Pearl Harbor because they were “provoked,” that is no more supportable than excusing the terrorists because they perceive the U. S. to have caused all the problems in the world, let alone in the Middle East, and because their reprehensible acts against civilians are not quite as “bad” as Hiroshima/Nagasaki.

Ah, yes, the Japanese were actually liberating the Philippines and the former independent kingdom of Hawaii from the imperialist U. S.  However, they still precipitated the war in the Pacific with their attack on Pearl Harbor.

Since my monoparagraphic style has been criticized, I’ll dice this entry finer.

The island capture strategy was necessary in order to acquire bomber bases closer to the Japanese Islands in order to accommodate the more limited range of the time.  It was even more important to bring fighter cover into effective range.

As successive island groups fell, the war production facilities of Japan came under increasing attack.  Fighters based on Iwo Jima interfered with bombing missions and it was considered by both the Japanese and Allied high commands to be a strategically important asset.  Consequently, the decision was made to capture Iwo Jima in what became one of the costliest encounters of the war.

“Simply blockading” islands such as Iwo Jima would have tied up scarce Naval forces.  Combatting an island nation requires naval forces as well as air.  Tying these up in blockades would have been extremely counterproductive, strategically as well as tactically.

The heavy losses on Iwo Jima were due in part from an underestimation of the Japanese force strength on the island.  That kind of mistake can be laid at the feet of U. S. and Allied command, but not the overall island hopping strategy.  Blockade and bypass was not a viable tactic, as it would have limited air strike effectiveness and tied up resources.

Successive Japanese defeats in other areas resulted from curtailment of armament by the Allied air offensive, as well as manpower attrition and unsustainable lines of supply.  Basing air resources in an increasingly tighter radius of both mainland and island sites was the main reason the assault on the Japanese armament and supply industry succeeded.

Yes, there was an intent to awe China and the Soviet Union as well as the Japanese.  Would it have been better to have abstained from the use of nuclear weapons?  Humanitarily, yes, of course.  Would China and the Soviet Union have forsworn their entry into the nuclear arms race if we had?  No, of course not.  Either way, the world would have looked pretty much the same after the war.

As for excusing the Japanese for Pearl Harbor because they were “provoked,” that is no more supportable than excusing the terrorists because they perceive the U. S. to have caused all the problems in the world, let alone in the Middle East, and because their reprehensible acts against civilians are not quite as “bad” as Hiroshima/Nagasaki.

Assuming that Nagasaki would not have been bombed had the Emperor and his government capitulated after Hiroshima, that government bears full responsibility for Nagasaki.  To the extent that government gave every indication that the defense of the home islands would be the same as what Churchill planned for Hitler in Britain, it also bears responsibility for Hiroshima.

Would it have been better if nuclear devices were never used?  Certainly.  As Carl Sagan pointed out, any extraterrestrial civilization that we might ultimately receive communications from would have had to resolve the “nuclear problem” and survive beyond incinerating their whole planet.

In 1991, the “Doomsday Clock” fell back to “17 minutes to midnight” based on the end of the Cold War and subsequent major nuclear arms reductions by the U. S. and the reestablished Russia.  However, it’s back to “5 minutes to midnight” based on Korean and Iranian nuclear arms ambitions and attainments.

Oh, by the way, why don’t we just say that Spain caused Pearl Harbor by the conquest of the Philippines in 1565-71?

Not unexpectedly, after a while, reader comments range widely from the topic of the article that birthed them.  To return momentarily to Sheer’s expose of Truman’s horrifying act of terrorism in World War II, we should also remember that the current Bush gulag at Guantanamo was presaged by internment camps for American citizens of Japanese extraction during that same war, a small detail that inexplicably escaped the notice of the authors of my American history textbooks in both high school and university.  For those who are willing to examine this particular horror from the bowels of U.S. history, may I recommend a short but powerful story entitled “Farewell to Manzanar” by Jeanne Wakatsuki Houston?  It is truly worth a few hours of one’s lifespan to read.

#94770 by Outraged on 8/14 at 1:19 am
(94 comments total)

Re: #94126 by Elder Earl on 8/11 at 8:15 pm
#94152 by Elder Earl on 8/11 at 9:58 pm
#94160 by Elder Earl on 8/11 at 10:28 pm

Earl,

No matter how much we would like something to be true the facts speak for themselves.

You are not arguing facts, Earl. You are arguing rhetoric against facts. Rhetoric intertwined with facts is still rhetoric.  It’s fine to have an opinion but realize that an opinion is just that, AN OPINION.  In other words Earl, “Gone With the Wind” is a fictional book.  There are actual HISTORICAL FACTS in the book, but the book is FICTION.
_____________________________________________________

The fact obtained by members in this menagerie are written by men whose reference to fact is obscured by their unwillingness in facing phantasmal idealism.

In other words they just plan do not see life correctly but establish a new form of idealism.

#94768 by Blueboy1938 on 8/14 at 12:54 am: “...Japan started the war in the Pacific and attacked the United States at Pearl Harbor.  It continued to prosecute the war in the face of declining resources of men and materiel, intensifying its hostilities as combat reached successively closer to the “home islands.” There was every reason to assume that the defense of the home islands would be intractable and costly to allied forces….”

Wow, what a long paragraph,  Blueboy1938. Oh, I see that you are an apologist for using anti-terrorsim as an excuse for any level of nuclear atrocities against anyone anywhere either in the past or in the future. Sad to see how you have had to work yourself up into an emotional state to justify any of that. You really just are a liar!

The “war in the Pacific” actually started in 1898 when the USA siezed the Philippines from the Spanish and used it as a naval base to threaten China and Japan. Pearl Harbor was only a consequence - whether you like to believe it or not. Its written in the history books of other countries in the Pacific, if not in US history books.

Japan was eventually going through the inevitable stages of defeat in 1945 and its forces outside of Japan were surrendering country by country, never mind a few insignificant islands which the stupid US generals squandered the lives of 1,000’s of US soldiers upon instead of simply blockading them. So unnecessary - except for the egotistical arrogance of bloody-minded US military supremacists!

The final “defense of the home islands” was thus not a significant issue and, in fact, the Japanese were willing to negotiate a surrender already. Instead, the nuclear murder-weapons were dropped - the US would have dropped a third if it could - and 100,000’s suffered. The real reason was solely as a warning to China and to Russia. You are a nuclear holocaust denier, Blueboy - nothing more.

Re: #94126 by Elder Earl on 8/11 at 8:15 pm
  #94152 by Elder Earl on 8/11 at 9:58 pm
  #94160 by Elder Earl on 8/11 at 10:28 pm

Earl,

No matter how much we would like something to be true the facts speak for themselves.

You are not arguing facts, Earl. You are arguing rhetoric against facts. Rhetoric intertwined with facts is still rhetoric.  It’s fine to have an opinion but realize that an opinion is just that, AN OPINION.  In other words Earl, “Gone With the Wind” is a fictional book.  There are actual HISTORICAL FACTS in the book, but the book is FICTION.

Japan started the war in the Pacific and attacked the United States at Pearl Harbor.  It continued to prosecute the war in the face of declining resources of men and materiel, intensifying its hostilities as combat reached successively closer to the “home islands.”  There was every reason to assume that the defense of the home islands would be intractable and costly to allied forces.  The suicidal defenses of small dots in the Pacific had demonstrated that the Japanese soldier would fight to the death for the Emperor so long as the Emperor continued to maintain his support for the war.  Even in the face of the Hiroshima catastrophe, the Emperor’s government gave no indication that it would surrender unconditionally as the allies demanded.  At the very least, that means the Emperor and his government were responsible for the death and destruction attendant on the Nagasaki bombing.  Was the extent of the destruction wrought by the atomic bomb a surprise to the Japanese?  Probably, as it more than likely was to everyone alive at the time.  Was the fact a surprise that the allies used whatever military means they had at their disposal to prosecute the war?  Of course not.  That’s what they did.  That’s what anyone prosecuting a war does.  Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were logical strategic targets beyond any psychological effect resulting from the inseparable “collateral damage” of incinerated civilians.  One can argue that the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor concentrated on military targets.  That was possible because the targets were not in close proximity to civilian centers and the armament used was limited in immediate range of destruction, carried as it was by small fighter/bombers.  Getting a sufficiently large array of aircraft over the Japanese mainland to effect a massive concentration of aerial bombardment was still, at the time of Hiroshima/Nagasaki, a problematic endeavor.  Many aircraft would have been lost.  The impact would have been dispersed and vitiated even if all the prospective targets had been hit.  Therefore, ware the atomic attacks justified militarily?  Yes.  Were the attacks justifiable morally?  Given the ethical considerations of the time, the viciousness of the Japanese prosecution of the war both before and after Pearl Harbor, the evidence that casualties on both sides resulting from and invasion of the home islands would be many times that of Hiroshima/Nagasaki, including Japanese civilians, the answer has to have been, yes.  To compare that decision with the wanton destruction wrought by terrorists randomly and intentionally killing civilians with no military consideration whatsoever is ludicrous.  Would it be better if neither the technology of war nor the heartlessness of the current crop of terrorists could be restrained by moral compunction?  Of course.  Will it help to excuse modern day terrorism by comparing it to the Crusades, the Hundred Years’ War, the First or Second World Wars, the bombing of the King David Hotel by Jewish terrorists, the killing of fleeing Iraqi soldiers in the Gulf War, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Stalin’s Gulags, the ethnic cleansing of Bosnia, and on and on?  No.  Terrorism must be addressed in its current context and countered with the military, law enforcement, political, and diplomatic means available now that prove effective, and the social and moral forces that can only be wielded by the moral authorities within the societies that give rise to the terrorists.

#94400 by Elder Earl on 8/12 at 9:11 pm: “...Have you ever looked at a map and seen how Iraq is centrally located where one can fight all those who oppose sound reasoning.  Secondly in occupying Iraq who has the second larges oil supply in the world, we as allies will not loss our economy…”

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060726&articleId=2824

Check the “MAP OF THE NEW MIDDLE EAST” at the foot of the page at this link. The “Free Kurdistan” does not even really exist and is actually only the Northern part of Iraq. The Kurds are still a stateless people existing in a semi-limbo between Turkey and Iran and largely in Iraq. So much for what goes on in the minds of the planners in the Pentagon!

******************************

#94395 by Elder Earl on 8/12 at 8:56 pm: “...People who seek truth shouldn’t mind having a conservative direct those who have forgotten what it means to have, honor, loyalty, integrity, and simple respect for our President and elected officials. .........Besides being open minded is not wrong unless morally inapt….”

In the context of today’s government administration in the USA and its “coalition of the willing” countries,  this is clearly both hypocrisy and insanity.

“And I found several here that have lost their abilitiy for reasoning in righteous judgment….” because they are on the dope!!!

#94196 by Skruff on 8/12 at 5:21 am
(Unregistered commenter)

Footnote; Iraq, the Iraqi people and Saddam at his worst never posed a credible threat to the US.

Now if you want to use your scenerio above to represent our relationship with Communist China, I’ll be more reseptive, however we also helped them become a danger.

_____________________________________________________

Have you ever looked at a map and seen how Iraq is centrally located where one can fight all those who oppose sound reasoning.  Secondly in occupying Iraq who has the second larges oil supply in the world, we as allies will not loss our economy

#94343 by Don Knutsen on 8/12 at 8:50 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

HOw about Truthdig giving a few other folks besides Eleder Earl a chance to voice their opinion. I am a fan of this site…but Geeeze…enough is enough with Bone headed Earl the Elder.  Isn’t Yosemite Sam avail, or perhaps Krusty the clown ? We need alittle more balnce here….I’m suffocating from the depth of dogma….

_____________________________________________________

People who seek truth shouldn’t mind having a conservative direct those who have forgotten what it means to have, honor, loyalty, integrity, and simple respect for our President and elected officials. 

Besides being open minded is not wrong unless morally inapt.  And I found several here that have lost their abilitiy for reasoning in righteous judgment.

#94387 by Forkboy on 8/12 at 8:26 pm: “...I’m not going to stake a position in this argument, but this question has come to mind while reading ALL (and that took some time!) these comments:

Everything else aside, did the dropping of the bombs wind-up saving tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of lives, both Japanese (military and civilian) and American (soldiers ........As history has pretty much secured the idea .......If we can accept the answer as “yes”, then can we really define the dropping of the two atomic bombs as an act of ‘terrorism’...”

Better go back to the previous page, Forkboy. Its all been discussed, whether you want to use the term terrorism or not doesn’t matter, the answer was NO and “history” was effectively the same set of lies then as we are all being fed today! What is worse, it could all happen again soon…..

I’m not going to stake a position in this argument, but this question has come to mind while reading ALL (and that took some time!) these comments:

Everything else aside, did the dropping of the bombs wind-up saving tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of lives, both Japanese (military and civilian) and American (soldiers, obviously)? 

As history has pretty much secured the idea (and note I’m not saying that the position is correct, but let us assume that it is) that the Japanese military was not going to surrender or allow the Emperor to do such, then wasn’t the very regrettable and certainly morally reprehensible detonation of those two bombs also a way to save many more lives when compared to the losses that most certainly would have occurred with an invasion?

If we can accept the answer as “yes”, then can we really define the dropping of the two atomic bombs as an act of ‘terrorism’?

#94208 by Chris S on 8/12 at 7:19 am: “...dad and the family are scared while barricaded in a fortress with a massive weapons cache, telling scaring stories to their children about terrorists while their Fearless Leader and his handlers make plans just as terrifying as any strangers ......Wake up and get real…”

Oh, I haven’t heard the “Fearless Leader” term for a while ......do we have one, Chris???

non credo says:

“Wavelength supposedly doesn’t think the atom bombing of Japan was “terrorism”. Well, Zebo obviously doesn’t mind calling it terrorism. But in calling it so, Zebo doesn’t incur the wrath of Wavelength - because Zebo APPROVES of the act.”

Not approve, war is evil, but the crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.

#94187 by Mariam Russell on 8/12 at 3:50 am
(Unregistered commenter)

I understand, Elder Earl. You are a true believer of the AMERICA, THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD myth, and I am truly sorry for you, but the millions of bodies over the world credited to the LIGHT are still dead, and the many countries are still full of millions of poor so the citizens, or at least a few of the citizens of the LIGHT, can wallow in obscene wealth looted from said countries.
_____________________________________________________

It is obvious you are not numbered among one of the many countries that are still full of millions of poor citizens.  I see you have use of a computer.

continued….

My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window,
looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husband’s questions and
he says, “Son.”

“Yes, Daddy.”

“Open the blinds, because that man…. he’s at your front door. “WHAT
DO YOU DO?”

My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up
his tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without
hesitation he says: “I’D DEFEND MY FAMILY, DAD!! I’M NOT GONNA LET HIM
HURT MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I’M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I’M GONNA
FIGHT HIM!!!!!”

I see a tear roll down my husband’s cheek and he grabs our son to his
chest and hugs him tight, and says… “It’s too late to fight him, he’s
too strong and he’s already at YOUR front door, son…..you should have
stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife, and his children and the old lady
across the way. You have to do what’s right, even if you have to do it
alone, before it’s too late,” my husband whispers.

THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good
men stand by and let evil happen, THAT is the greatest EVIL of all.

Our President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must
understand that this war is a war of humanity. WE must remove evil men
from power so that we can continue to live in a free world where we are
not afraid to look out our windowso that my nine year old son won’t
grow up in a world where he feels that if he just “closes” the blinds
the atrocities in the world won’t affect him.

“YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO
IT ALONE!” BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR
TROOPS!! SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR
CHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR BLINDS…”

continue….

“I’d call the police, Dad.”

“OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take your
call, listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do
you do then, son?”

“Dad…....... but the police are supposed to help!” My son starts to
whine.

“They don’t want to son, because they say that it is not their place or
your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it,” my
husband says.

“But Dad…he killed her!!” my son exclaims.

“I know he did…but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want
you to look out that windowand pretend you see our neighbor who you’re
pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children.”

“Daddy…he kills them?”

“Yes son, he does. What do you do?”

“Well, if the police don’t want to help, I will go and ask my next door
neighbor to help me stop him.” our son says.

“Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get
involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him,” my
husband says.

“But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can’t stop him by myself!!”

“WHAT DO YOU DO, SON?” Our son starts to cry.

“OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for
help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and
puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next, son?”

“What Daddy?”

“He walks across the street to the old lady’s house and breaks down her
door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire
and then…he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing in the
windowand laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?”

“Daddy…”

“WHAT DO YOU DO?”

Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, “I’d close the
blinds, Daddy.”

My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him, “Why?”

“Because, Daddy…..the police are supposed to help people who need
them…and they won’t help…. you always say that neighbors are
supposed to HELP neighbors, but they won’t help either…they won’t help
me stop him…I’m afraid….I can’t do it by myself, Daddy….I can’t
look out my windowand just watch him do all these terrible things
and…and…..do nothing…so….I’m just going to close the blinds…so
I can’t see what he’s doing….....and I’m going to pretend that it is
not happening.”

I start to cry.

to be continued….

To All,

I hope this story will help Doug, and others to understand the importance of The United States to entering Iraq.

The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at
war. My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and
I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve
and defend our Country again today. I knew that my husband would give
him a good explanation.
My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go stand
in our front living room window. He said “Son, stand there and tell me
what you see?”

“I see trees and cars and our neighbor’s houses.” he replied.

“OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the
United States of America and you are President Bush.”

Our son giggled and said “OK.”

“Now son, I want you to look out the windowand pretend that every
house and yard on this block is a different country” my husband said.

“OK, Dad, I’m pretending.”

“Now I want you to stand there and look out the windowand pretend you
see Saddam come out of his house with his wife. He has her by the hair
and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the
face, he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to
death. Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are
screaming and crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they
are kids and they are afraid of their father. You see all of this
son…. what do you do?”

“Dad?”

“What do you do son?”

to be continued….

Doug,

Here are some complaints against President Bush which in all your fulmination my reveal your true consciences.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak my mind. I lost my job this past year. When Clinton was president I was secure and prosperous, but in the last year we had to close our operations. I was forced out of the place where I had worked for 34 years.

Not a single government program was there to help me.

Just so you know I lost both my sons fighting for their country. I lost them in Iraq and for what? So that Bush’s oil buddies can get rich? My pain is indescribable.

I simply have nothing left. How can Bush call himself a Christian when he neglects people like me? I am a senior citizen with various medical problems. I’m not in a position where I can begin a new career, all because of President Bush.

Mr. Bush, I dare you to look me in the face and tell me you are a compassionate man!! I dare you to look me in the face and tell me you are a Christian. If I had any money left, I would donate it all to the Democratic Party.

If Al Gore had been elected in 2000 I would still have a job, a home and most importantly, a family.

Regards,

Saddam Huessein

#94141 by Elder Earl on 8/11 at 9:26 pm (31 comments total)————————-

____________________________________________________

#94139 by Douglas Chalmers on 8/11 at 9:18 pm (588 comments total)

#94130 by Elder Earl on 8/11 at 8:22 pm: “...Last of Quotes .....“We are in possession of what I think to be ...Saddam Hussein…”

Watch out! This guy is flying high on the stuff this weekend - and posting ad infinitum as well as at length while channelling Saddam Hussein with an English accent!?!?

****************************************************

31 comments too many from snake-in-the-grass, EE - but I thought the above comment worth repeating.

#94133 by Non Credo on 8/11 at 8:28 pm
(222 comments total)

#93956 by Steve on 8/11 at 8:20 am
(Unregistered commenter)

When you target civilians in order to pressure the Japanese political authorities as Truman did by dropping two atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, this by definition is terrorism.

Justify these acts all you want with the Bible or with twisted appeals to patriotism, but it cannot change the fact that what Truman did was evil.  Truman was a terrorist just like Osama.

The only difference is that one is a state terrorist and the other is a private terrorist. Presidents should be judged by their conduct the same as all other people.
————————-

I thought the above comment worth repeating.
_____________________________________________________

Just for you I will repeat way Steve’s reasonings from a wrong point of veiw.

Steve, zebo, Mariam Russell, LoveSweetLove, Skruff, Hattsof,

It becomes obvious in the collect writing of Steve, zebo, Mariam Russell, LoveSweetLove, Skruff, Hattsof, that the rational of mental pursuit is obscured by the insentient relationship with reasoning from a wrong perspective.  Allow me to illuminate the on the point of reference taken by those posted above.

Terrorist:Quote:
The drama can only be brought to its climax in one of two ways—through the selective brutality of terrorism or the impartial horrors of war.

by Kaunda, Kenneth

It was a beautiful day.  The wind blew gently through the trees revealing the sun’s light as the leaves danced in the breeze.  Under the trees could be seen the rays of the sun darting between the branches stimulating the green grass where friends and families had gathered to enjoy the fraternity of life.  There were people preparing food, some were setting tables, others played with their children.  A blanket had been lain on the grass in the shade of the trees where an infant and its mother lay resting.  Rockwell would have been glad to paint such scenic beauty.  It was so tranquil and serene as I moved among the surroundings.
Steven called Gina as she laid beside their baby daughter, “Honey come help me with the drinks. It shouldn’t take but a minute.  The baby asleep and she will be safe.  Besides, we can see her.  She is only ten feet away from us.” Gina got up and started helping Steven. I watched with great pleasure. As everyone, was busy enjoying life.
Suddenly a huge diamond back rattler appeared.  He quietly crawled toward the blanket.  I noticed him and moved calmly toward the baby not wanting to startle anyone, for fear the serpent would strike the baby.  Swiftly I moved coming in contact upon the snake’s head with the heel of my boot as he approached the edge of the blanket.  The snake made his presence know as he twitched his body and rattled his tail.  The people panicked, Gena thunderbolts toward the baby, with Steven in hot pursuit.  She seized the baby as the snake bushed up against her leg while it was flinching in death underneath my foot.  A greater fright seized her and she pasted out with Steven taking the baby from her arms.

NOW HERE WHAT HAS HAPPEN TO THE EVIL AT HAND AND THE REASONING BY THOSE POSTED ABOVE…..

The snake was under control.  Nevertheless, the people did not see the victory.  Hysteria seized the people, some were crying uncontrollably while holding their children, others only imagined what could have happened if I had not been there.  Further more, there were those who ranted about how deadly the venom of the snake was.  They even went into detail of how the venom effects its victim, thus maintaining the fears of the people.

It is time for us to put away all fear, for the victory is won. As our nation stands in defiance of terrorist through the impartial horrors of war. 

rek
6/22/00

#94130 by Elder Earl on 8/11 at 8:22 pm: “...Last of Quotes .....“We are in possession of what I think to be ...Saddam Hussein…”

Watch out! This guy is flying high on the stuff this weekend - and posting ad infinitum as well as at length while channelling Saddam Hussein with an English accent!?!?

Last of Quotes

“We are in possession of what I think to be
compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has
had for a number of years, a developing capacity for
the production and storage of weapons of mass
destruction.”
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec.! 8, 2002

“Without question, we need to disarm Saddam
Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading
an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly
grievous threat because he is so consistently prone
to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating
America’s response to his continued deceit and his
consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction…
So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass
destruction is real.”
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

Let us understand what our leaders have to say about Iraq and the agenda of Iraq’s political leaders.  I hope Robert Scheer can read as well as he writes against our nation as terroist when the overt actions of true terrorist can be seen by our nations leaders.

Continue….

Quotes:

Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on
building weapons of mass destruction and palaces
for his cronies.”
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

“There is no doubt that .. Saddam Hussein has
invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate
that biological, chemical and nuclear programs
continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War
status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine
delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of
a licit missile program to develop longer-range
missiles that will threaten the United States and
our allies.”
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob
Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

“We begin with the common belief that Saddam
Hussein is a tyrant and threat to the peace and
stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate
of the United Nations and is building weapons of
mass destruction and the means of delivering them.”
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

“We know that he has stored secret supplies of
biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.”
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

“Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction
has proven impossible to deter and we should assume
that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.”
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

“We have known for many years that Saddam
Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass
destruction.”
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

“The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in
October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam
Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and
biological weapons, and that he has since embarked
on a crash course to build up his chemical and
biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence
reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear
weapons…”
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

“I will be voting to give the President! of
the United States the authority to use force—if
necessary—to disarm Saddam Hussein because I
believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass
destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat
to our security.”
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

“There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam
Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear
weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within
the next five years ... We also should remember we
have always underestimated the progress Saddam has
made in development of weapons of mass destruction.”
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

“He has systematically violated, over the
course of the past 11 years, every significant UN
resolution that has demanded that he disarm and
destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any
nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do.”
- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

“In the four years since the inspectors left,
intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has
worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapon
stock, his missile delivery capability, and his
nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and
sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members.
It is clear, however, that if left unchecked Saddam
Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to
wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep
trying to develop nuclear weapons.”
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

Once the “greatest” generation has died off there will be few people left defending or excusing the Hiroshima or Nagasaki bombings. The tide has already turned, even in the U.S., as far as the general understanding of the true nature of those despicable, cowardly and grossly immoral actions. It’s truly a shame that some of you will spin in your graves knowing this.

As far as arguing whether these bombings were “terrorist” or something else - this is completely beside the point. The truth, whether Wavelength or his ilk like it or not, is that these actions were on a moral plane at least equal to that of your typical terrorist. The only difference is that Hiroshima and Nagasaki was destruction and death on a scale Osama and Co. could only dream about. If you find comfort in arguing that these actions are not properly described as “terrorist” or “terroristic,” then more power to you.

Let us understand what our leaders have to say about Iraq and the agenda of Iraq’s political leaders.  I hope Robert Scheer can read as well as he writes against our nation as terroist when the overt actions of true terrorist can be seen by our nations leaders.

quote:

“One way or the other, we are determined to
deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass
destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That
is our bottom line.”
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

“If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use
force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously
diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass
destruction program.”
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

“Iraq is a long way from [here], but what
happens there matters a great deal here. For the
risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use
nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us
or our allies is the greatest security threat we
face.”
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

“He will use those weapons of mass destruction
again, as he has ten times since 1983.”
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

“We urge you, after consulting with Congress,
and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws,
to take necessary actions (including, if
appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect
Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat
posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass
destruction programs.”
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI),
Tom Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry ( D - MA), and others Oct. 9, 1998

“Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the
development of weapons of mass destruction
technology which is a threat to countries in the
region and he has made a mockery of the weapons
inspection process.”
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

#94113 by Douglas Chalmers on 8/11 at 7:12 pm

Oh, groan, the “snake” is out of control again, ha ha! He/it only wants us to “see the victory” but not whether we were right or wrong or whether what we did was good or evil. Perhaps his fear is really that he could not face becoming a terrorist himslef never mind a brave man - so he exhorts others to do his desperate deeds for him! Thus he only has to “imagine what could have happened” if he had been there…...!?!? In the end, his venom affects us all as his victims…....

_____________________________________________________

Doug-old-boy,

The mental illusion created through terrorist remarks is only diminished by your reluctance to sound reasoning.  The people see you for what and who you are by your phantasm.

It would be nice if you could once stay with the topic instead of phantasma.

#94107 by Elder Earl on 8/11 at 7:00 pm: “...NOW HERE WHAT HAS HAPPEN TO THE EVIL AT HAND AND THE REASONING BY THOSE POSTED ABOVE….. It is time for us to put away all fear, for the victory is won. As our nation stands in defiance of terrorist through the impartial horrors of war…”

Oh, groan, the “snake” is out of control again, ha ha! He/it only wants us to “see the victory” but not whether we were right or wrong or whether what we did was good or evil. Perhaps his fear is really that he could not face becoming a terrorist himslef never mind a brave man - so he exhorts others to do his desperate deeds for him! Thus he only has to “imagine what could have happened” if he had been there…...!?!? In the end, his venom affects us all as his victims…....

Steve, zebo, Mariam Russell, LoveSweetLove, Skruff, Hattsof,

It becomes obvious in the collect writing of Steve, zebo, Mariam Russell, LoveSweetLove, Skruff, Hattsof, that the rational of mental pursuit is obscured by the insentient relationship with reasoning from a wrong perspective.  Allow me to illuminate the on the point of reference taken by those posted above.

Terrorist:Quote:
The drama can only be brought to its climax in one of two ways—through the selective brutality of terrorism or the impartial horrors of war.

by Kaunda, Kenneth

  It was a beautiful day.  The wind blew gently through the trees revealing the sun’s light as the leaves danced in the breeze.  Under the trees could be seen the rays of the sun darting between the branches stimulating the green grass where friends and families had gathered to enjoy the fraternity of life.  There were people preparing food, some were setting tables, others played with their children.  A blanket had been lain on the grass in the shade of the trees where an infant and its mother lay resting.  Rockwell would have been glad to paint such scenic beauty.  It was so tranquil and serene as I moved among the surroundings.
  Steven called Gina as she laid beside their baby daughter, “Honey come help me with the drinks. It shouldn’t take but a minute.  The baby asleep and she will be safe.  Besides, we can see her.  She is only ten feet away from us.”  Gina got up and started helping Steven. I watched with great pleasure. As everyone, was busy enjoying life.
  Suddenly a huge diamond back rattler appeared.  He quietly crawled toward the blanket.  I noticed him and moved calmly toward the baby not wanting to startle anyone, for fear the serpent would strike the baby.  Swiftly I moved coming in contact upon the snake’s head with the heel of my boot as he approached the edge of the blanket.  The snake made his presence know as he twitched his body and rattled his tail.  The people panicked, Gena thunderbolts toward the baby, with Steven in hot pursuit.  She seized the baby as the snake bushed up against her leg while it was flinching in death underneath my foot.  A greater fright seized her and she pasted out with Steven taking the baby from her arms.

NOW HERE WHAT HAS HAPPEN TO THE EVIL AT HAND AND THE REASONING BY THOSE POSTED ABOVE…..

  The snake was under control.  Nevertheless, the people did not see the victory.  Hysteria seized the people, some were crying uncontrollably while holding their children, others only imagined what could have happened if I had not been there.  Further more, there were those who ranted about how deadly the venom of the snake was.  They even went into detail of how the venom effects its victim, thus maintaining the fears of the people.

It is time for us to put away all fear, for the victory is won. As our nation stands in defiance of terrorist through the impartial horrors of war.   

rek
6/22/00

94031 by Robert Elkins on 8/11 at 1:20 pm: “...The USA only finished it. Next time count costs before starting anything. It is a good idea. The then Japanese army committed atrocities far beyond the norm in China and islands of the Pacific ocean. So let’s not cry over the past. Learn from the experience and don’t start something that you can’t finish.  That goes for everyome, yea, me too….”

There were 137 comments before you came along, RE. That entire matter has already been discussed from the various perspectives. All of your excuses for what your country did have been dealt with.

Who “started the fight” is about the most childish one we all have heard or seen yet. Its about the dawn of the era of WMD’s and mass murder with a single weapon which the USA started in 1945.

We are all living with the consequences now including who will/might drop the next one. So far, only the USA has volunteered. If they do, there won’t be a future to cry over…....!!!

Its sadly obvious that the current US administration has NOT learned from that experience except as regards its ability to continue to threaten other nations around the world.

AmeriSwine are like their British cousins, they’re petulant losers and bitchy winners - even the old Sot Churchill was pushing for massive air force bombardment of Germany with anthrax cakes to finish off every last surviving German man, woman and child. Of course, don’t forget Dresden - NOBLE ALLIED VICTORY. So the AmeriSwine and the Limeys exterminate their opponents, after all, the losers always “started” the whole matter didn’t they ?

A continuing series of wars between sets of mercenary plutocratic predators competing for territories to rule may eventually lead to the rise of a state that dominates all other states within the global culture. Maybe this dominant state uses military power to force subjects of other submissive states to serve the national interests of the subjects of this dominant state. Maybe this dominant state gives a beast of a military industrial complex authority to print a supply of paper currency only limited by the supply of paper; and uses military power to force other states to buy debt in exchange of exports of valuable goods and services. Maybe this dominant state uses shows of military force to get submissive states to agree that sales of key export commodities such as oil shall be made only in exchange for this paper currency. By getting submissive states to agree that sales of vital commodities such as oil shall be made only in exchange for this paper currency, maybe a beast of a military industrial complex succeeds in buying oil with easily printed paper of negligible intrinsic value.

By getting submissive states to agree that sales of vital commodities such as oil shall be made only in exchange for this paper currency, maybe a beast of military industrial complex forces other states to buy oil using the paper currency of this dominant state. Maybe this ability to force other states to purchase a vital commodity such as oil in exchange for the paper currency of the dominant state helps make this paper a world reserve currency. Maybe states submissive to the dominant state demand this world reserve currency in order to buy and sell oil. In effect such a paper currency would backed by oil and the agreement to only make sales and purchases of oil in exchange for this paper currency would be backed by threat of military force. Artifical demand for this paper currency created by military force would help to protect subjects of this dominant state from the inflationary effects of an ever growing expansion of the money supply.

Extortion, blackmail, intimidation and threats of military force only work for a dominant state as long as a dominant state maintains military superiority. If a dominant state fails to maintain military superiority then submissive states would not be shocked and awed enough by shows of military force to be willing to export vital commodities such as oil in exchange for easily printed paper of negligible intrinsic value and would no longer be willing to buy debt in exchange for exports of valueable goods and services.  The paper so easily printed by a beast of a military industrial complex would no longer enjoy world reserve currency status. Subjects of the formally dominant state already burdened by massive interest payments on even more massive national debt would no longer be protected from the inflationary effects of a greatly expanded money supply and would experience a significant loss of buying power and lower standard of living as a result. If war were to prevent collection of a direct tax, then the paper currency would lose its’ last lease on life; the value of labor and property confiscated through taxation. Subjects would see the value of any savings denominated in the irredeemible paper currency of such a formally dominant state approach the negligible intrinsic value of paper.

Grow up. One needs terror and lots of it to win wars. Incidently last time we used terror was WWII in Germany and Japan and those are the last wars we won, were able to occupy without incident. If we as a nation/people don’t have the stomach for killing civilians in masse until they roll on thier own militants and unconditionally surrender perhaps we should’nt fight wars anymore like 90% of you wanted with Iraq and Afghanistan?

Non Credo,

Your last response is about what I expected out of you.

You’re all emotion—teary-eyes, anger, lashing out, righteous indignation. 

When you get through that stuff, it is plain to see that you don’t have much in the way of rational argument.
————————————————————————————————————-

Robert Giacobbe,

Thanks for your praise.  I’ve also enjoyed your posts on this forum, so keep up the good work.

It seems that Elder Earl is also a poet and riddler - combine that with senility and a few open back doors to the mind and no wonder things go round and round and doctrine gets all twirled into a ball of spaghetti!

Let me suggest a little mantra for you, Elder Earl, that will keep you on the straight and narrow when senility threatens to get the best of you. Just keep repeating: Jesus - YES!, Israel - NO! You can’t go wrong. Forget Doctrine and Blogs.

I enjoy senility and retirement but tell me what is Doug, GodSend, and Robert Giacobbe excuse.  GodSend I didn’t think of you as a liberal who has left the back door of his mind open for to long like Robert Scheer with his open mindedness seeking to make the United State a terrorist nation.  Nevertheless, I enjoy my encounters with the mental elite, it makes me happy to see I am not the only one who is seeking truth and understanding of the wonders of this world.

By the way here is a poem for all my new friends.

OPINIONS
ON PINIONS
THOUGHTS HAVE WINGS

Opinions and opinions hang on pinions that makes their world go around. People halt between them and spin round and round. To often they become the pinion that allows opinions a place to turn around, thus centering on themselves in their life’s decisions, spinning round and round
Always caught between opinions not able to decide; people who are pinions are seeking truth that they may abide; but their heart is far from Him Who can save them from the lie.
They are always going around in circles trying to decide where is the truth in which to aibed; they spin on and on as life passes them by. Funny as it may seem these people are in serious pain halt between two opinions true life never to obtain. For today is the day of salvation and Christ is the pinion. Is He the center of your life or are you caught between two opinions still going around and around being the pinion, where true life is not to be found. Fly unto Him where true life you can find. For today is the day; now is the time, be not aimless in the mind, may you find His pinion an be as the eagle who lives on high.

Elder Earl: Apparently senility has caught up with you. Not to worry - it happens to the best of us. Enjoy your retirement - and try to stay away from these mind-blowing Blogs! - when mixed with senility of the brain, they can turn the most firm doctrine into a bowl of jelly.

Douglas Chalmers,

You have very poor insight, both personally and with regard to the issues being discussed on this forum.  Best of luck with that.

#93812 by Elder Earl on 8/10 at 5:28 pm: “...Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. ........Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. ........do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid…........ Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience.  For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing…..”

Wow, straight from “A Brave New World” .......you’ve been “bokanovskified”! Talk about “arrested development’, ha ha - ugh!

Quote: “...the operation undergone voluntarily for the good of Society….... “Bokanovsky’s Process” ...... “Essentially ...... bokanovskification consists of a series of arrests of development….” http://www.huxley.net/ and click pic for links….

#93802 by wavelength on 8/10 at 4:58 pm: “...poor writing, insults, overstatements, and frank delusions You keep rambling on and on.  Please stay on topic….... I state this in all earnestness…... stop your current medication…....  If you are currently off your medication, get back on it….”

Thank you for your offensive and irrelevant remarks - I am glad that I am not on your “wavelength”! In all earnestness, you appear quite insane…....

The A-bomb was given to excute complete and told judgment againt evil.  Evil does not get the opertunity to choose it judgment.  And here is way….

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.

Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience.  For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.

Douglas Chalmers,

Do you really think you’re contributing to the dialogue on this forum with your disjointed pieces—full of poor writing, insults, overstatements, and frank delusions? 

You keep rambling on and on.  Please stay on topic.

I state this in all earnestness and not as an ad hominem attack – stop your current medication.  If you are currently off your medication, get back on it.

#93656 by Elder Earl on 8/10 at 5:50 am: “...Doug-old-boy so elegantly put yet so erroneously wrong.  Iran and its political agenda is, will be, and always has been the problem to peace in that region with Israel being just as guilty.  .......We must place our reasoning before God as it is He who is using all thing for His glory and the increase of His Kingdom within man….”

Yes, you are so self centered in your judgements - or in wanting to judge others in the first place, EE. That is not reasoning and you do not have any link with “god” as a result - merely your own diabolicallly monstrous ego.

Again, you prattle on about “kingdoms” and “glory” as you intend to usurp the name of another to promote your covert agenda of wanting to rule over others at any cost. You’ll be happy when we are all bombed back to the stone age because it will then be so much easier for you.

Kindly do not use my name in vain. I do not share your views of Iran and it has as wonderful a history as any nation on Earth - except your f#ckin’ stupid Jews of Zion (not all of whom are bad, either!) http://www.iranian.com/Clips/2007/February/iran.html

The evil state of Israel IS the main threat to peace “in that region” with the uSA and its obscene “coalition of the willing” as its deluded puppets!

#93726 by Andrew on 8/10 at 10:27 am: “...Such energy and discipline!  Awesome.  But business is immobilised by corruption.  They create their own hell too.  And it’s not one I would want to commit to (altho I love the place). They’re a harsh enigmatic people who provide no margin for error or starting over…”

The Japanese? You’re kidding, Andrew. Essentially, they’re no different from anyone else. They do have a reputation for cleanliness and efficiency, though - as well as the current form of nepotism in government so coomon in the USA too.

Harsh + enigmatic? Ha ha, did you mean like this?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oob34pEraEg&mode=related&search;=  or this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xuptXGGOAQ

Really, what do Americans know??? What you saw in Vietnam was what happens to people after decades of war and centuries of oppression. They are suffering a kind of bruised sanity. The English were once like that too - only totally insane (and still are).

#93769 by Elder Earl on 8/10 at 2:50 pm: “...“Have no fellowship with the works of Darkness but rather EXPOSE them”.......... Godsend, you do error in doctrine but that is not the issue at had.  Let us pray for our leaders so that we can live in peace and justice.  Come take all thoughts captive unto the obedience of Christ allow truth to reign in our hearts as God is already here in His people….”

The hypnotic language of the swaying snake of iniquity of your people who term a 20-year old as an “elder” after having indoctrinated him (its always a he) in blindly telling people how to think in an erroneous set manner.

Worse still, you lot prattle about “obedience” as you bow down to the satan of dead dogma and ludicrously praise it as “the living Christ”. How then can any kind of real TRUTH exist in your thinking? Again, you use the term “reign” for your imparialistic fantasies of usurping Truth in order to rule over others’ minds.

Godsend stated
Hey, Elder Earl, let me remind you that Satan is the ‘god of this world’ and that until God appears to render His Final Judgment or otherwise intervenes in human affairs, His instructions are to “Resist the Devil” and to “Have no fellowship with the works of Darkness but rather EXPOSE them”.

_____________________________________________________

Godsend, you do error in doctrine but that is not the issue at had.  Let us pray for our leaders so that we can live in peace and justice.  Come take all thoughts captive unto the obedience of Christ allow truth to reign in our hearts as God is already here in His people.

Politically being liberal or just plan open-minded allows people to negate morals and justify their ignorance of right and wrong.  Robert Scheer has taken great liberty in making the United States a terrorist nation, so let us correct his madness.  His evil is what is at hand.

Non Credo,

Our entire discussion centers on whether the atomic bombing of Japan can be appropriately categorized as a “terrorist attack”.  That is why I responded to you on this forum.  Don’t dismiss this now as a peripheral issue.  It is not. 

Was the atomic bombing of Japan morally defensible?  That is a separate question and I think a fair one.  Let’s have a debate about it, without resorting to terms like “terrorist” that do not accurately capture the character of this event.

I am trying to understand your mindset.  You seem to think that unless I apply the term “terrorist” to these events that I am not being sufficiently critical of our actions.  I am not fully recognizing the horror of what transpired on the ground to innocent civilians, all of the innocent lives lost.  I disagree.  We can apply many adjectives to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  But the language we choose, the labels we apply, must accurately describe the events in question. 

You are using a biased, left-wing agenda to pronounce upon events that took place in a different world over 60 years ago.  You continually minimize the role of the Japanese in these events – Japan initiated an aggressive war against the US in order to maintain their hegemony over Asia, Japan had over 1 million troops in Asia it vowed would never surrender until the end, Japan brutally mistreated innocent civilians as well as prisoners of war leading up to and throughout WWII. 

If the US were a “terrorist nation” carrying out “terrorist attacks”, then why did we nurture and rebuild Japan following the war?  We didn’t seek to impose our will upon them.  Can the same be said for Japan?  No – and therein lies the moral difference.  Japan had plans to split the US with Germany and to get rid of the English language altogether by replacing it with a sort of fusion between Japanese characters and English words. 

Japan was a fascist nation in the 1940’s, just as the USSR was a communist nation in the 1970’s, just as the US is a democratic nation today.  Does this mean every single person, every school-aged child was a fascist?  No.  And they don’t need to be for me to apply that label.  The label is appropriate.

Non Credo, learn to think for yourself.  Stop the rote copying of definitions from Noam Chomsky.  How long did you have to search through your well-worn copy of “Hegemony or Survival” to come up with these stupid sentences: “Terrorism, of course, is usually the province of non-state actors. But regardless of the agent, terrorism is the use of violence - either directed at noncombatant civilians or foreseeably resulting in grievous harm primarily to such persons - to frighten (terrorize) an entire polity and/or government.” 

Are you some grad student who discovered Noam Chomsky for the first time and now parrots him at every opportunity?

Hey, Elder Earl, let me remind you that Satan is the ‘god of this world’ and that until God appears to render His Final Judgment or otherwise intervenes in human affairs, His instructions are to “Resist the Devil” and to “Have no fellowship with the works of Darkness but rather EXPOSE them”.

Furthermore, “God is not the author of confusion but of a sound mind”. We are to use our God-given minds to discern Evil (the Devil) and to resist it (him). In our present age, the Rogue State of Israel and its Zionists leaders (“the rebellious house of Israel”) are the personification of Evil and must be resisted.

You sound more like ‘Senile Earl’. Do not abuse God’s Name to justify your BS! Israel is the Evil in the ME, not Iran or any other country. It’s a VERY long story but it is NOT a never-ending story. It will end very soon and not as the Zionists dream. But you’re right in one respect: God will end their dream and turn it into a nightmare Unfortunately, it will also be the world’s nightmare.

Douglas Chalmers statement
Americans and their allies grizzle and moan about a relative few thousands of soldiers lost over a mere few years (and no civilians) and somehow see justification for the most extreme and inhuman kinds of retaliation. Perhaps it is really the inevitability of losing their illusions of supremacy in a non-white world that really frightens them the most? Nothing can justify vaporising so many humans - especially civilians - yet some here still not only cling to that eroneous concept but want to excuse themselves by repeating their monstrous atrocities on the Iranians in full knowledge of what will happen.

_____________________________________________________

Doug-old-boy so elegantly put yet so erroneously wrong.  Iran and its political agenda is, will be, and always has been the problem to peace in that region with Israel being just as guilty. 

As for the inevitability of losing their illusions of supremacy in a non-white world, I would like to inform you it is the nature of the human race to be self centered in their judgements. We must place our reasoning before God as it is He who is using all thing for His glory and the increase of His Kingdom within man.

#93433 by Andrew on 8/09 at 8:46 am: “...the Japanese seem more sensitive to their pain than the pain they inflicted on others.  Of course that applies equally to the USA – remember Newsweek’s cover story “ Charlie Company – What Vietnam did to us” (should read “Charlie Company – what WE DID TO VIETNAM”).......... These issues, of course, are subsumed in a wave of patriotic hysteria.  Our poor fellow Americans clutch the flag like Charlie Brown’s security blanket and fail to see that patiotism isn’t about waving a piece of cloth and shooting up a bunch of natives in Sand Creek, My Lai, or Haditha…... It is about concern of the welfare of your fellow co-citizens…”

Thanks, Andrew. The only real Vietnam “war heros” I have ever met were all Vietnamese. Whether they were from the north or the South didn’t matter. It was their country they were fighting for. They called the war in the 1960’s-70’s in Vietnam the “AMERICAN WAR”!

Americans and Australians and whoever else invaded and occupied Vietnam then don’t like to hear that -  but it is true. Before that, as we discussed, it was the French who obscenely re-invaded after they got free of the Germans in their own country. The anti-Japanese resistance then evolved into guerilla warfare and the Viet Minh defeated the French in the 1950’s.

Ironically, it is most probably the Vietnamese who lost their country in the 1970’s - the Southern refugees - who have recovered most from their ordeal and have gone on to happier lives. In contrast, the Americans and Australians especially who fought in this war of their own countries’ making have dragged themselves though unendurable grief and guilt and shame and remorse to this day.

That says something about the cultural and spiritual strength of the Vietnamese people compared with white Anglo-Saxon/Anglo-Celtics and Europeans. Perhaps we should give up our self-centered perceptions of our sufferings and look more closely at what others have endured and how they cope? As it was, Vietnam suffered under the heel of ancient China for 1,000 years yet could still go forward.

Americans and their allies grizzle and moan about a relative few thousands of soldiers lost over a mere few years (and no civilians) and somehow see justification for the most extreme and inhuman kinds of retaliation. Perhaps it is really the inevitability of losing their illusions of supremacy in a non-white world that really frightens them the most? Nothing can justify vaporising so many humans - especially civilians - yet some here still not only cling to that eroneous concept but want to excuse themselves by repeating their monstrous atrocities on the Iranians in full knowledge of what will happen.

Dylboz
There is absolutely ZERO difference between this guy’s reasoning and Osama Bin Ladens. The Muslims extremists see us all as guilty under the leadership of our evil government which is meddling in their politics and desecrating their holy lands, murdering their children and stealing their oil while enriching and protecting the brutal and repressive dictatorship they suffer under.

_____________________________________________________

Dylboz, your unlimited imagination is astounding with its’ moral dilemma.  There is no right or wrong just situation ethics.  I found your left wing political judgement a little obtuse. 

Your reasoning is like this young boy…..

A young boy had just gotten his driving permit. He asked his father, who was a minister, if they could discuss his use of the car.

“I’ll make a deal with you,” said his father. “You bring your grades up, study your Bible a little, get your hair cut, and then we’ll talk.”

A month later the boy came back and again asked his father if they could discuss his use of the car.
“Son, I’m real proud of you. You’ve brought your grades up and you’ve studied your Bible, but you didn’t get hair cut!”

“You know, Dad, I HAVE BEEN THINKING about that. Samson had long hair, Moses had long hair, Noah had long hair, and even Jesus had long hair.”
“Yes son, and they walked everywhere they went!

Non Credo,

There are miles and miles of books on the topic of imperial Japan in your local public library.  Try reading one.

There is nothing pompous about labeling imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, or 1940’s Spain or Italy as “fascistic”.

What is truly ridiculous is to label the atomic bombing of Japan as a “terrorist attack”.  This strategy requires frequent distortion and toying with the plain meaning of words.  It simply isn’t true.  We can admit it was a horrible, egregious event—perhaps even unnecessary (though I don’t agree)—without categorizing this as a terrorist attack, indistinguishable from terror attacks carried out by Islamic fundamentalists.

Your predictable response will be to focus solely on body count without factoring in the role of human intentions and the historical contingencies of the time.  You will also fail to make basic distinctions, such as the distinction between democracy and fascism, as well as the distinction between aggressive wars initiated by fascists, and the response of imperfect democracies to such threats.

Go ahead, I’m waiting…

1drees:

I didn’t recommend selling your wife/husband and children, did I!? Good idea to start wrapping them up, though, just in case!

Today’s market dive and the subprime fiasco are just warm-ups for the financial markets’ collapse and RE bust, coming soon to your neighborhood.

Non-Credo,

You don’t strike me as someone engaged in a dispassionate examination of the evidence.

I never claimed to speak for Amy Goodman – perhaps you shouldn’t either.

The fastest growing political group in this country is people who identify as “Independent”.  Anyone who wonders why their ranks are swelling need only read the thought process of liberals such as you.

The solution to opposing the abuses of American power will come through a nuanced and honest discussion of all of the details of a given issue.  It will not come through partisan attacks – labeling your opponent as “a liberal interventionist hawk” – whatever that term means.

The US bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not terrorist attacks.  If you don’t appreciate this, you don’t understand very much.

We should not take another (liberal) style of dogmatism and oppose it to the neoconservative dogmatism currently in power.  This doesn’t get at the roots of the problem.

You are smug and self-righteous.  Grow up Non-Credo!

If being a left wing ideologue were a crime, Robert Scheer would be in prison right now.

There are many brilliant writers here at Truthdig, such as Joe Conason, Amy Goodman and Sam Harris.  Unfortunately, their high quality works have been diluted away due to a steady stream of unbalanced pieces contributed by Robert Scheer.

Scheer appears to be a conscientious and well-intentioned person who seems to be unable to make even the most basic moral distinctions.  His desire to oppose the abuses that American power has committed (and will commit) in the world has led him into some rather glaring intellectual mistakes.  The developed countries of the West are always oppressive and malevolent, while those who oppose the West—even if they are fascists—are to be defended to the end.  Intrinsically fascistic nations—such as Japan circa 1940’s—that didn’t care at all about liberal values or social justice, are embraced merely because they claimed rhetorically to oppose Western power.

To equate the US actions against Japan during WWII to jihadist violence in the Middle East today is utterly moronic.  It may fill you with a sense of self-righteousness in making this statement, but the benefits of the comparison end there.  We can acknowledge that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were mistakes –that targeting non-combatants is morally repugnant and never justifiable—and still make the distinction between imperfect or misinformed democracy on the one hand, and fascism on the other hand.  Scheer has overstated his case in a shameful and embarrassing way.

The bombings of Japan took place in a different historical context.  Nuclear technology was brand new and relatively untested.  The forces aligned against us were different than they are today.  Fascist Japan was a true threat to the security of our nation.  Though the true nature of their regime is glossed over in current accounts of WWII such as “Flags of Our Fathers” and “Letters From Iwo Jima”, the Japanese treated their enemies with the utmost brutality and barbarism throughout WWII.  Prisoners of war were regularly tortured, beheaded, or brutally murdered.  Japanese racism allowed them to justify the most horrific mistreatment of large swaths of people who opposed them.

Why does Scheer neglect these details?  Because they are incompatible with his liberal fanaticism and anti-Western bent.  For him, ideology trumps evidence every time.

Okay, Omegaman, why did they need to eradicate civilians on purpose, unless it was a superfluous show of force? The Japanese government failed its citizens; of that there’s no doubt. I know what the imperialist Japanese had been up to prior to WWII as well as anyone, and even so, don’t understand how that justifies demolishing entire populations, and their successive generations (radiation poisoning has been a recurring problem for the survivors and their children).
“Comfort Women”? Please. Why don’t you just try “human being”?

Isn’t it great we are able to critisize the actions taken to end WW II?  Having not actually have lived during that period and gone thru the agony and sacrifice of that period.  Perhaps some of the posters and Scheer would have made for good “comfort women” for all those nice Japanese soldiers.

I have to reiterate writerdd’s nauseau, and I have to wonder if anyone who “would’ve done what Truman did” has bothered themselves with reading first-hand accounts of survivors in those decimated Japanese cities.

There’s no excuse for what our government did then, as there’s no excuse now.