atheo:

It’s really not surprising. When your very life is at stake, you’ll cling to anything - even a straw! They will stonewall the issue (the MSM) while it is right in front of their noses! Think of ‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’. Admitting guilt will be death for all of them - and a lot more! Like I said before, all hell will break loose - it’s inevitable.

Godsend,

It is indeed fascinating that people can cling to the “Arabs did it” thesis, which contains nothing but empty accusations and falsified evidence, while at the same time dismissing all the hard evidence of Israeli complicity.

atheo:

Be prepared for the defenders of Zionism, with regard to their 9/11 dastardly deed, to basically claim the equivalent of “Black is White”.

People like cyrena are either witting or unwitting Zionist shills because they just can’t stand the idea of admitting that Israel and Zionists are criminals. Maybe they have too many Jewish friends and don’t want to lose them.

It is self-evident by now (as well as obvious) that the ‘Official’ 9/11 explanation is a huge and deliberate LIE that defies the laws of physics and a whole bunch of other laws.

The ‘Zionists DID IT’ explanation is not only logical, it also has the advantage of a compelling motive. All the pieces fit together beautifully and all that is required for incontrovertible proof is for a few people to be given a lie detector test. People like Guiliani, Bush, Zakheim, etc. would be sufficient. Maybe we should ‘extraordinarily rendition’ them to Russia?!

The bottom line is that MANY people know that the Zionists ‘DID IT’. Before the 2008 ‘Election’, most of the voters will know that the Zionists ‘DID IT’. Look for the guilty to scramble for 1-way tickets on El Al to Tel Aviv or change their religion. Who knows, some of them may decide to climb into the Israel (Trojan) Horse, located within Christianity! Problem is, there are already 50-odd million ‘Christians’ packed into that Horse!

Pretty soon, anyone who still doubts that the Zionists ‘DID IT’ will feel like ‘Flat Earthers’ in the 20th century! They will be considered insane or morons (or both).

Howard,

Are you a dolt? Evidence is required for guilt not innocence.

Godsend,

I’m frankly floored by the position taken by Cyrena that, yes 9/11 was obviously an inside job, and at the same time it was those damn Saudi’s that did it.
This seems to be a new (to me) fall back position.

Wow, I’m so glad to hear on this page from some commentators that 9/11 was not caused by the those Saudi citizens Whew, and they’ll be happy in that country too.
But where is the proof for who YOU said did it ? Myself, I think you should now look into Elvis.... er, I mean Kilroy being the ones who hijacked the planes.

cyrena - I suggest plain or raisin bagels and no pretzels. Easy on the cream cheese and lox if you have high BP. In fact, it may be a good idea to avoid Blogs about 9/11 altogether! Don’t they have Blogs for ‘Jewish’ mothers and grandmothers? - where you can blog about your grandchildren?

#93696 by GodSend on 8/10 at 8:24 am

Now, that would REALLY make the day. The salt would be a problem though. Gotta watch my blood pressure.

I’ll suggest it to the others though.

PS to cyrena:

Don’t forget to put down your pretzels or bagels before you and your friends start rolling on the floor in utter hilarity! And remember, you don’t have to be Jewish to be a ‘Jewish mother’ - or grandmother, in your case.

cyrena, it will escape no one that you completely ignored the ISSUE. The ISSUE is Zionist Deception and concealment of 9/11 truths in a vain attempt to save their sorry asses. Even the intervention of ‘Jewish’ mothers and grandmothers will not save their sorry asses! Try another strategy because this one is dead as a doornail.

The real perpetrators of the 9/11 attack on America will be identified, caught, tried, convicted and punished. They are Israeli and American Zionists. What we must try to do is avoid ‘collateral damage’ during the process of ‘smoking them out’

#93667 by GodSend on 8/10 at 6:44 am
• cyrena is one of those subtle Zionist shills who sounds ‘reasonable’ (even motherly - like a ‘Jewish’ mother) on the surface but not far below that surface lies Deception and an effort to discredit ANYONE who is a threat to the Zionist agenda. She is an extension of the MSM into cyberspace.
Godsend,
This is absolutely priceless!!! It’s rare that I can start my morning with such excellent comedy. Matter of fact, this was so good, that I shared it with everyone who actually KNOWS me. I can’t wait to hear the responses from the natural-born comedians among them. No doubt it will make their days as well.

Thanks again.

Respectfully,
Your Neighborhood Jewish Grandmother Zionist Shill (MSM certified)

atheo et al:

Do not let cyrena’s spaghetti logic about 9/11 undermine the self-evident TRUTH that the ‘Official’ explanation for 9/11 is a DELIBERATE LIE.

cyrena is one of those subtle Zionist shills who sounds ‘reasonable’ (even motherly - like a ‘Jewish’ mother) on the surface but not far below that surface lies Deception and an effort to discredit ANYONE who is a threat to the Zionist agenda. She is an extension of the MSM into cyberspace.

It is now a CERTAINTY that the events of 9/11 were not perpetrated by a bunch of crazed Arabs (some of whom are still alive) but by a far more sinister cabal of Zionists (supporters of the Rogue State of Israel) who want to ‘Balkanize’ the ME for the benefit of Israel ( ‘Greater Israel’ ).

These Zionists are going to continue to call Black, White, in the Orwellian ‘Big Brother’ manner, because to acknowledge the truth (about 9/11 and all those other ‘false-flag’ operations) will open Pandora’s Box and unleash a backlash against the Zionist intrigue that will make the holocaust seem like a dress rehearsal!

Talk about ‘Beyond Disaster’!

#93133 by atheo on 8/08 at 9:09 am

Cyrena
• I find it curious that you would accept the myth that conspiracies are impossible to keep hidden.

Atheo, I never said that conspiracies are IMPOSSIBLE to keep hidden. So, sounds like you’re just nitpicking here, and there are all sorts of explanations for why one might indulge in that kind of harassment. The shrinks would label it as “passive aggressive” behavior, but I just see it as a neurosis. It’s not that you don’t seem to do a lot of thinking about these things, and it’s certainly not that you don’t make good points, or that you don’t connect a few of the concepts.

But, here again, your arguments are basically petty. Neurotic sorts of things that focus very narrowly on whatever you can pick up to use as a jab of sorts. And, it’s actually a sign of weakness in an argument of any substance.

The events of 9-11 are a conspiracy within a conspiracy and there’s no doubt in my mind that SOME folks know exactly what happened. There are even people who know things they don’t even REALIZE they know. And for many who DO, they have already been intimidated into silence.

So, nobody ever said that it was IMPOSSIBLE to maintain any and all conspiracies. That was a broad statement that you attempt to use with a narrow purpose, and I didn’t even say it. It was included in another documentand that was one statement, (a broad one) about “conspiracies” in general. And, most of the time, it IS impossible to keep them under wraps.

The perpetrators of such conspiracies CAN keep everyone confused though, and prevent them from “comparing notes” on what they DO know. And, the masses can in fact be “diverted” by all of the faux facts, mixed in with the truth. That’s what seems to have happened with you. You became aware of a few of the “trappings” of the 9-11 conspiracy, and so now you’ve dismissed ALL other information from these same sources. So, you’re basically throwing the baby out with the bath water. You say….don’t believe ANY of it, despite what your eyes are telling you. That leaves you with…NOTHING. You’re left with continuing to point to the same things that are obvious lies and deceptions, but you never come up with a plausible alternative other than, The CIA did it, or the Zionists did it, or whomever else. Just so nobody accuses a group of mostly Arabs, who have long ago made their grievances over “U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East”, very well known. They have never wanted the US military presence in their region. And, this particular group has made no secret of that. Ergo, multiple “terrorist attacks” on US interests in that region. 9-11 was their second strike on US soil, over the period of a decade. So, this wasn’t new, and should have been expected. I think it WAS expected.

But, instead of actually thinking through that, you’d rather pick on something that is a generality, and you wind up looking foolish, or at best very petty.

Here’s a link to a fantasy speech that encompasses and supports some of your better work on these posts. I think you’ll enjoy it.

The New Vision: The Speech I Want the Democratic Nominee to Give

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/080807E.shtml

What Senator Fulbright and others discerned and what Benjamin Freedman unveiled (in speeches made in 1961 and 1974) is an outcome consistent with instructions to Jews contained in the ‘Protocols’. When Herzl and others emboldened the Zionist movement to pursue a homeland for Jews at any price in goyim blood, it represented open rebellion against Yahweh (according to Neturei Karta rabbis and other rabbis since Zionism first appeared). The pride, arrogance, evil and deception of Zionism knows no bounds because Satan is the power behind Zionism and Zionists. Satan is ‘the god of this world’ and Zionism contains within it all of his attributes. Does Satan want to enslave and destroy humanity (bodies and souls)?

Are Satan and his worshipers enemies of Yahweh and Jesus the Christ? What does that make Israel, home of Zionism? What occult symbolism is built into the Supreme Court buildings in Jerusalem? Whose idea was that and who funded that project?

What do the actions of Israel’s leaders tell the world about their values, morals and integrity? ‘Deception’ is the Mossad motto. Satan has been identified as the “Great Deceiver” in Holy Scripture. Are 50 million CUI ‘Christians’ among ‘even the elect’ who will be deceived during the End Times? Who is deceiving them and are they ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’? Do true followers of Christ and worshipers of Satan make strange bedfellows?

What, in the world, is happening? - and what WILL happen? Can you put the pieces of The Puzzle together and SEE! what’s coming? What is coming is Beyond Disaster! For one thing, the Grand Depression is coming - engineered by those Zionist Depression ‘experts’, Greenspan & Bernanke (the Sorcerer and his Apprentice). Is Armageddon coming? What will happen to America and who will occupy all those gulags being built by Halliburton and others? Whose idea is that?

Will Bush become the Dictator-in-Chief after 9/11-II by invoking a law (Signing Statement) he recently signed? Is Bush listening to God or to the Devil? Can we tell by the results of his decisions? (suffering of millions and rivers of blood and tears). “You will know them by their fruits” (not their words). What do the fruits of Bush’s actions tell us? Is he insane? Is he a tyrant? Is he both? Can he possibly be a ‘born again’ follower of Christ or is he another kind of ‘Christian’ altogether - say, like a TV millionaire ‘Christian’? Can they really serve 2 masters? - Christ AND Mammon?

“You will be sorrowful but your sorrow will be turned into joy”? From out of the Darkness will come the Light and there will be joy! Will you be among the joyful?

Beyond Disaster lies Hope! Who is humanity’s ONLY Hope? (No, it’s not Obe One Kenobe!)

#92813 by I know that I know nothing on 8/07 at 8:30 am
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Tony Wicher:

“Of course I know that some responses will amount to nothing but the same old bs.  One can have a bs meter without claiming to have any knowledge of substance.  Indeed it is the very possession of a bs meter that makes one realize how little one knows.  Alas, that is probably too much for all you dogmatists out there.”

IKTIKN:

Are sure your BS meter is accurate? Does it detect BS even when you yourself are uttering it?

Malcom Lagauche:

The current list of U.S. presidential candidates who call themselves “anti-war” is laughable. They vary in their amount of opposition to the war in Iraq and criticize each other for their ideas.

Edwards signed the authorization for war in 2002, yet he derides Clinton because she voted for it. Obama proudly states that he opposed the invasion and he calls for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq. Then, he says they should be sent to Afghanistan. Next, he has threatened Pakistan with an invasion. All candidates call for a planned withdrawal, not an immediate exit.

In all the talk about Iraq coming from politicians, there are various matters that are left untouched. Only when they are addressed can the issue be properly approached and lead to a future in which the U.S. does not randomly destroy countries for no reason other than the same one why a dog licks its balls: because it can.

Who will be the first U.S. politician to admit that Iraq was better off under Saddam Hussein? During arguments about Iraq, all the supporters have to say is, “Well, at least Saddam is gone,” and the “peace” people close their mouths. It is precisely because Saddam is gone that Iraq is in it miserable state.

Who will be the first U.S. politician to admit that the invasion was based on lies, not intelligence flaws? Democrats and Republicans alike lied to the public.

Who will be the first U.S. politician to publicly criticize Colin Powell for his duplicity in building a case for war? Everybody seems to think Powell was a cut above the rest in the administration in terms of honesty. He was as much a scumbag as anyone because he realized he had a false image of being a person of integrity and he used this vision to lie to the world.

Who will be the first U.S. politician to speak to the American people about the history of Iraq? When will the U.S. public be told that Iraq had a fine education system? When will the U.S. public be told that Iraq’s healthcare system was the finest in the Middle East? When will the U.S. public be told that Iraq went from a country of 35% literacy to a country designated “free of illiteracy” in shortly over a decade?

Who will be the first U.S. politician to challenge the myths of mass graves in Iraq? In November 2003, U.S. politicians reveled in Tony Blair’s statement to the world that 400,000 mass graves had been found in the south of Iraq. But, when Blair announced to his own people on July 18, 2004 that the number was about 5,000, not one of his U.S. supporters mentioned the re-assessment. And, not one has spoken of the forensics that showed most of these bodies were of Iraqi soldiers killed in the bombing of Desert Storm.

Who will be the first U.S. politician to apologize to the Iraqi people?

Who will be the first U.S. politician to call for reparations to the Iraqi people for all the damage the country suffered at the hands of U.S. militarism?

Who will be the first U.S. politician to absolutely state that many of the U.S. military personnel in Iraq became murderers and psychopaths? Instead, we hear about a few “bad apples” and that our military would never act in such barbaric manners. A visit to YouTube will dispel many statements about the honor of the military. No wonder the Pentagon recently stopped soldiers from posting their videos on YouTube and other similar websites.

Comment #93504 by Aretologist on 8/9

Israel ups the stakes in the propaganda war

Following its invasion of Lebanon this summer, Israel was said to have largely lost the PR battle to Hizbullah, but armed with a major web offensive, it’s fighting back

11.20.2006 | The Guardian
by Stewart Purvis

“Amir Gissin runs what he calls ‘“Israel’s Explanation Department”. Which is why it is surprising to hear him admit that many Israelis think “the whole problem is that we don’t explain ourselves correctly”.

“During the war we had the opportunity to do some very nice things with the megaphone community,” he revealed at the conference. Among them, he claimed, was a role in getting an admission from Reuters that a photograph of damage to Beirut had been doctored by a Lebanese photographer to increase the amount of smoke in the picture. This was first spotted by American blogger Charles Johnson, who has won an award for “promoting Israel and Zionism”.

To check out the power of the megaphone, I logged onto a website called GIYUS (Give Israel Your United Support) last Wednesday afternoon. More than 25,000 registered users of http://www.giyus.org have downloaded the megaphone software, which enables them to receive alerts asking them to get active online.

It did not take long for an alertto come through. A Foreign Office minister, Kim Howells, had issued a press statement condemning that day’s Palestinian rocket attack which killed an elderly Israeli and wounded other civilians. GIYUS wanted site users to “show your appreciation of the UK’s response”.

One click took me to a pre-prepared email addressed to Dr Howells, and a slot for me to personalise my comment. A test confirmed that the email would arrive at his office, as if I had spotted his comments on a news website, in this case Yahoo, and sent it to him with a supporting message. In the emails, there would be no indication of the involvement of GIYUS, although Howells may have been suspicious that so many people around the world had read the same Yahoo story about him and decided to email him. The Foreign Office confirms that emails were received last Wednesday but will not go into any more detail.

The most popular target of the online activists is the foreign media, especially the BBC, the news organisation which they love to hate. Earlier this year I was a member of the independent panel set up by the BBC governors to review the BBC’s coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We reported on the high number of emails we had received from abroad, mostly from North America, and the evidence of pressure group involvement. A majority of email correspondents thought that the BBC was anti-Israel, however if the emails that could be identified as coming from abroad were excluded, the opposite was true - more people thought the BBC anti-Palestinian or pro-Israel.

The BBC has already had one encounter with GIYUS - an attempt to influence the outcome of an online poll. BBC History magazine noticed an upsurge in voting on whether holocaust denial should be a criminal offence in Britain. But the closing date had already passed and the result had already been published, so the votes were invalid anyway. GIYUS supporters claim success elsewhere in “balancing” an opinion poll on an Arabic website by turning a vote condemning Israel’s attack in the Lebanon into an endorsement.

For some of Israel’s supporters, a primary aim of their war on the web is an attempt to discredit what they see as hostile foreign media reports, especially those containing iconic visual images.”
-----------------------------------------------
Click on the link for the rest of the article & WATCH OUT for ISRAEL & AIPAC’S—“GIYUS”, the “Internet Mega-Phone”.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11& ar=695

“Increased awareness is the first step to freedom.”

The following is from “They Dared to Speak Out” -

In 1973, Senator William Fulbright declared that the United States Senate was ‘subservient’ to Israeli policies which were inimical to American interests. He said the US bears ‘a very great share of the responsibility’ for the continuation of Middle East violence. ‘It’s quite obvious that without the all-out support by the United States in money and weapons and so on, the Israelis couldn’t do what they’ve been doing.’

‘The great majority of the Senate of the United States - somewhere around 80% ( 100% today) - are completely in support of Israel, anything Israel wants.’ The Senator claimed that “Israel controls the Senate’.

In a speech Fulbright warned: ‘Endlessly pressing the United States for money and arms - invariably getting all and more than she asks for - Israel makes bad use of a good friend.’ (a good‘friend’ has become a good‘wife’)

He warned sombrely that “Israel’s supporters in the United States...are encouraging a course which must lead toward her destruction - and just possibly ours as well.’

Pondering the future (in 1973) Fulbright sees little hope that Capital Hill will effectively challenge the Israeli lobby: ‘It’s suicide for politicians to oppose them (AIPAC).’

‘AIPAC demands 100%. If a fine Senator like Fulbright fails to cooperate just once, he must be ready to trade in his career.’

Another staff member of a Senate committee declared: ‘To please AIPAC, you have to be more pure
(more Jewish) than Ivory soap - 99.44% purity is not good enough.’ Lacking the purity AIPAC demanded,
Hathaway, Fulbright, Percy, Findley were defeated in the next elections.

Another Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Charles Percy also spoke out about America’s subservience to Israel and he too was defeated in next election and he left politics for good.  In confirming that AIPAC was responsible for Fulbright’s and Percy’s defeat at the polls, a former head of AIPAC boasted: “The Jews in America gathered to oust Senator Charles Percy and the (other) America politicians got the message.”

The French mathematician Condorcet in 1790 postulated that because of the gullibility and stupidity of the majority of the uneducated French public, a cunning highly organized educated dedicated and rich minority, all of them working together, could gain enough power in the country to indoctrinate the French people and create an elite powerful oligarchy behind a “democratic smoke screen.” Has his theory turned into actuality-reality?

The most dangerous delusion? That there is just one reality for everyone, that everyone is and thinks the same and that everyone wants the same out of life and sees the world in the same way.

The second most dangerous delusion? That the mass media is objective neutral, favors nobody and tells the truth, the whole truth and nothing more.  People are gullible, naive and trusting. They accept the facts which come to them through the mass media. They have neither the time nor the inclination to search for the real facts that are not effortlessly available to them.

Every nation, every people must be very careful who they let own their mass media. People can be inculcated and controlled by the careful management and manipulation of the information they receive. Those who own or manage the mass media may not see the world the same way you do, they may not think the same way you do and they may not want the same the same things from life that you do.

Is there a rich, highly organized highly educated, cunning and dedicated minority - all of them working together with one similar goal in mind - that has inculcated the American people and gained control of their government?  Or does it just seem that way to me and to some other people?

I don’t want to discourage anyone from speaking out and leaving comments here at Truthdig. However, I do not believe that any of you know that the Jewish overseeing committee that controls the U.S. Congress - AIPAC operates a covert section within its “research” department that monitors what it calls “anti-Israel (anti-Jewish) activity.

According to Ex- Congressman Paul Findley in his book “Deliberate Deceptions: Facing the Facts about the U.S.-Israeli Relationship” - AIPAC joined with the American Jewish Committee and other Jewish groups in 1974 to form a “truth squad.” to counter anti-Israeli information.

“According to investigative reporter Robert Friedman, the truth squad turned into a kind of Jewish thought police. AIPAC’s investigators - sometimes over-zealous Jewish college students (monitoring Internet sites such as Truthdig?), sometimes sources with access to U.S. intelligence agencies - were used to ferret out critics of Israel.”

Findley: “According to Gregory Slabodkin, a young Jewish scholar who was once an AIPAC researcher: ‘To date, revelations about AIPAC’s....smear tactics have barely scratched the surface of AIPAC’s secret activities...AIPAC operates a covert section within its research department that monitors and keeps files on politicians, journalists, academics, Arab-Americans, Jewish liberals and others that it labels ‘anti-Jewish.’

AIPAC selects information from these files and secretly circulates lists of the ‘guilty,’ together with their alleged political misdeeds, buttressed by their statements (made here at Truthdig), often (taken) totally out of content.”
Slabodkin revealed that the head of AIPAC’s stealth section keeps locked up in his office ‘literally thousands of files on people and organizations that AIPAC deems ‘anti-Israel.’ Such as Jimmy Carter, Robert Dole, George McGovern, John Conyers, John Dingell, Mervyn Dymally, Caspar Weinberger and John Sununu.”

Has AIPAC’s “research” section grown since 1974? How many Jewish people are there out there monitoring
the American people?  And how many AIPAC “researchers” might there be right here at Truthdig?

Can an organization such as AIPAC legally do what Findley claims they are doing? Is there anybody sane left in America’s government to put a stop to it?  Or has AIPAC and the American Jewish Congress booted all the clearheaded politicians out of Congress?

If that is the case then exactly what kind of politicians has AIPAC left us with?

There is one UNALTERABLE RATIONAL.

NEITHER PRO ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER.

Enforcing UN Resolutions of 1948 that created the State of Israel and the Palestenian State,

NO ANDS IFS OR BUTS.

Thats the least DECENT AND RIGHT THING TO DO.

CAUSE IF IT WERE A BIZARRO WORLD

And it was the Palestenians doing it to the Israelis as the Israelis are doing it to the Palestenians then it would STILL BE

Enforce UN Resolutions of 1948 that created a Palestenian and the State of Israel.

Any other ANDS IFS OR BUTS would be tantamount to stating that the distinction between human beings and wild animals is not as great as humans tend to imagine.

Fanatical Zionists have no shame, no conscience, no morals, no heart, no soul, no decency, no integrity, no compassion - AND no place to hide when Yahweh gathers them in His furnace to MELT them! (Ezekiel)

You DON’T want to walk even 1 step in their moccasins!

That’s what you get when you follow the ‘Protocols’, rebel against Yahweh and worship Satan!

It amazes that these fanatical zionists on this board repeatedly post outrageous racist lies and genocidal myths only to exlode in indignation when a few words of reference to the protocals of zion are mentioned. Have they no shame?

#93358 by Howard on 8/09 at 3:55 am: “...Some of the commentators might not be aware of the confusion related to the myth of “occupation” as expounded here or the uses of phrases like “ land-grab” by Israel. .......In other words, the myth of “occupation” being the cause of conflict....When the Egyptians were in possession of Gaza for almost twenty years nobody accused them of being occupiers. The Jordanians, who were in possession of Judea/Samaria (the “West Bank”) and much of Jerusalem for the same length of time, were not considered occupiers by the nations of the world and by the inhabitants of the area......... “

This is NOT a topic about Israel, Howard, and all of the relevant issues with Israel have already been well canvassed and discussed. You are more than a little behind - even irrelevant. What is more, your assertion that “Israel, in contrast, has never evicted a single Arab from these territories....” has been refuted conclusively before if not in other topics as well as an absolute lie.

Apart from that, the current issues in Israel are not as the result of an occupation so much as an invasion and usurpation. Most of those Jews were still in Europe a few years before. Any Jordanian or Egyptian incursions were viewed as being entirely different in nature. What is more, the history of the entire region is a patchwork of endless invasions and military conflicts. They did not involve the current kind of ethnic cleansing, though.

By the way, what were you congratulating Harry Truman about re dropping the A-bomb? Is that your view of Japanese? Then why stick up for Jews if you don’t also hate or despise Arabs? You crawl around this blog like a chameleon deceptively changing color wherever you turn up, duh - (#93264 by Howard on 8/08 at 8:04 pm) http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070807_robert_sc heer_august_8_a_bomb/

Now, wouldn’t it be nice for us all to actually get around to discussing the various issues of Iraq like the stateless Kurds and their future relationship with Iran and the next prime minister of Pakistan being related to both, the Turks as neighbors and a regional military power, etc etc........

Quote from above story link: “...The Ottoman state began as one of many small Turkish states that emerged in Asia Minor during the breakdown of the empire of the Seljuk Turks. The Ottoman Turks began to absorb the other states, and during the reign (1451–81) of Muhammad II they ended all other local Turkish dynasties. The early phase of Ottoman expansion took place under Osman I, Orkhan, Murad I, and Beyazid I at the expense of the Byzantine Empire, Bulgaria, and Serbia. Bursa fell in 1326 and Adrianople (the modern Edirne) in 1361; each in turn became the capital of the empire. The great Ottoman victories of Kosovo (1389) and Nikopol (1396) placed large parts of the Balkan Peninsula under Ottoman rule and awakened Europe to the Ottoman danger. The Ottoman siege of Constantinople was lifted at the appearance of Timur, who defeated and captured Beyazid in 1402. The Ottomans, however, soon rallied....”

Some of the commentators might not be aware of the confusion related to the myth of “occupation” as expounded here or the uses of phrases like “ land-grab” by Israel.

In other words, the myth of “occupation” being the cause of conflict. The very concept of “occupation,” as applied to Gaza and Judea/Samaria (the “West Bank”), is a myth. When the Egyptians were in possession of Gaza for almost twenty years nobody accused them of being occupiers. The Jordanians, who were in possession of Judea/Samaria (the “West Bank”) and much of Jerusalem for the same length of time, were not considered occupiers by the nations of the world and by the inhabitants of the area. The Israelis were considered “occupiers” when, after a war of extermination against them, they prevailed and came into possession of these territories. The oldest rule of warfare is that to the victor belong the spoils. Do people expect France to return Alsace-Lorraine to Germany? Do they expect the Czech Republic or Poland to return the German territories awarded to them after Germany’s defeat in World War II? Of course not! Those countries evicted most of the original inhabitants or caused them to flee. Israel, in contrast, has never evicted a single Arab from these territories. On the contrary, lured by the prosperity the Israelis have created, tens of thousands of Arabs from adjacent Syria and Jordan have come to live there.

Thanks Cyrena. If people would just look beneath the surface they would see the truth.

Jeff, in case you come back, look for yourself:

Top Democrat: Our policy on Iraq won’t imperil Israel, leave chaos
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/891358.html

Now, after you read this short article, ask yourself WHY is it needed that 40 US elected representatives need to make the annual pilgrimage?

Also, why is it needed to consider Israel’s security in our pullout from Iraq?

WHY?

#93328 by the 1Sgt on 8/09 at 12:49 am

• I’m not sure that’s a practicable solution in all cases Jeff.
But, maybe in the case of Palestine, where the dispossessed have for almost 60 years complained about the land grab vehemently (locally and in the international court), taken up arms, used various forms of warfare to combat what they perceive as illegal occupation and survived outright brutal human rights violations.....
--------------------------------

The original question here, (from Jeff) was a facetious one at best, because of course it wouldn’t be a practical solution in all cases. Besides, I mean, should all of US give the Native Americans back their land? I wouldn’t mind, but it’s highly unlikely that the rest of you would go for it. Meantime, these 300 years later, the indigenous here have been mostly wiped out, so they aren’t trying to get anything back. (well, that’s not exactly true, but they aren’t attacking us as a result of their losses and our hubris).

Which is exactly why 1st Sgt is right on the mark here:
• 9/11 happened because of our foreign policy. A foreign policy we not only continue, but have even expanded further and are even considering more radical moves.

This certainly speaks for itself, and I would only repeat that we ALL need to start paying attention.

• Jeff, when you read about this some more you will see it is all connected.

This is true Jeff, though in all fairness, there really IS a lot to wade though. So, it’s sort of an “advanced” level of a connect-the-dots exercise. But, it must be done.

Otherwise, as Verne would say…we’re cooked.

#93293 by Jeff on 8/08 at 9:40 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

the 1SGT said, “Please, stop making excuses for what is happening to some 5+ million people, dispossessed of the land they once owned.”
-----------------------------------------------
So, 1SGT, should all land worldwide be returned to the original owner?
==================================================
==================================================
I’m not sure that’s a practicable solution in all cases Jeff.

But, maybe in the case of Palestine, where the dispossessed have for almost 60 years complained about the land grab vehemently (locally and in the international court), taken up arms, used various forms of warfare to combat what they perceive as illegal occupation and survived outright brutal human rights violations.....

And recently, whereas the same people and their cause are used as the casus beli for attacks on the United States, well....MAYBE it’s time we Americans start paying attention to why all this is happening.

9/11 happened because of our foreign policy. A foreign policy we not only continue, but have even expanded further and are even considering more radical moves.

Jeff, when you read about this some more you will see it is all connected.

#93308 by Douglas Chalmers on 8/08 at 10:44 pm

Oh, groan, its YOU again - having your monthly “YOU ARE A NAZI. PERIOD!” I don’t know why Truthdig allows this Aryan Brotherhood/KKK horseshit to be posted.......

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Doug,

It’s free speech. We don’t know how much longer we’re gonna have it, so this is probably a small price to pay.

#93281 by Inherit The Wind on 8/08 at 8:38 pm: “...I knew it. I called it.  I said it. Sooner or later one of you hate-filled ignorant nazi shitheads would cite that crude forgery “The Protocols of The Elders of Zion.” Anyone who quotes that evil hunk of muck is a nazi.  Period. End of story......If you cite “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”...... DogCrap, you can now join DogShit at the bottom of the heap. ......I don’t know why Truthdig allows this Aryan Brotherhood/KKK horseshit to be posted...”

Oh, groan, its YOU again - having your monthly “YOU ARE A NAZI. PERIOD!” I don’t know why Truthdig allows this Aryan Brotherhood/KKK horseshit to be posted.......

#93281 by I#93281 by Inherit The Wind on 8/08 at 8:38 pm

• If you cite “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” as an authority YOU ARE A NAZI, A TRAITOR TO AMERICA, AND AN INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL![/B] That putrid piece of vomit was a principle justification for MILLIONS of hate crimes, thousands of times more than Palestinians could even PRETEND to have suffered.
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Ok Doug,
You see what you started, right? You got him (ITW) all flipping wound up. (again) He reads like a clip from The Exorcist.

Jeeze…

#93237 by the 1Sgt on 8/08 at 6:34 pm

1st Sgt, you are quite the scholar, and I appreciate that historical timeline that you’ve provided. I wonder if other folks appreciate the value of this information as well? I would like to think that people would take advantage of this sort of thing, if only because the cost of an advanced education in this country has become so prohibitive, that so many cannot afford it. But, with just a minimal amount internet savvy, so much of what we need to know is actually available right here. When somebody else does the work, and presents it on a board such as this, it’s that much better. Bingo…at our fingertips. A free researcher. Thanks for your contributions.

#93266 by Enemy of State on 8/08 at 8:12 pm
• Of course when I use legalisms to claim all the cookies for myself (but I might give you a few crumbs if you clean up after me), I should not be surprised that you fight me for your share. It is not evidence that you are an evil-lawbreaker, just that you percieve the unfairness of such arbitrary rules invented, and imposed by the haves.

Enemy of the State,

Thanks for putting this so concisely. I never can.

Meantime, the “legalisms” aren’t working for the imperialists this time. Those Iraqis STILL will not sign the Hydrocarbon Law, no matter how many times cheney’s lawyers change the order of the paragraphs. They just aren’t as stupid as cheney thought they should be.

So, now that they Iraqi Parliament has gone on recess without passing that law…cheney’s all consuming obsession, the rest of us are catching even more hell. Matter of fact, I’m wondering if that’s why he threatened the U.S. Congress to keep them in “after hours detention” until they signed over those powers for him to spy on everybody in the world, but most specifically all of us.

And, now that I think about it, (since that threat apparently worked) does anybody know if george actually has the “power” to detain all of the Congress personnel in session, and physically prevent them from leaving until they sign a law?
I’m just curious, because I just don’t know how that would work. I see no reason why Congress couldn’t have simply refused to address the FISA loophole at all. Like…we’ll just “table” this until we get back.

So, could the Shrub have REALLY forced them to stay there until they did?