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Posted on Aug 6, 2007
Bloody hand
AP Photo / Hameed Rasheed

By Chris Hedges

The war in Iraq is about to get worse—much worse.  The Democrats’ decision to let the war run its course, while they frantically wash their hands of responsibility, means that it will sputter and stagger forward until the mission collapses.  This will be sudden.  The security of the Green Zone, our imperial city, will be increasingly breached.  Command and control will disintegrate.  And we will back out of Iraq humiliated and defeated.  But this will not be the end of the conflict.  It will, in fact, signal a phase of the war far deadlier and more dangerous to American interests. 

Iraq no longer exists as a unified country.  The experiment that was Iraq, the cobbling together of disparate and antagonistic patches of the Ottoman Empire by the victorious powers in the wake of World War I, belongs to the history books.  It will never come back.  The Kurds have set up a de facto state in the north, the Shiites control most of the south and the center of the country is a battleground.  There are 2 million Iraqis who have fled their homes and are internally displaced. Another 2 million have left the country, most to Syria and Jordan, which now has the largest number of refugees per capita of any country on Earth. An Oxfam report estimates that one in three Iraqis are in need of emergency aid, but the chaos and violence is so widespread that assistance is impossible.  Iraq is in a state of anarchy.  The American occupation forces are one more source of terror tossed into the caldron of suicide bombings, mercenary armies, militias, massive explosions, ambushes, kidnappings and mass executions.  But wait until we leave.

It was not supposed to turn out like this.  Remember all those visions of a democratic Iraq, visions peddled by the White House and fatuous pundits like Thomas Friedman and the gravel-voiced morons who pollute our airwaves on CNN and Fox News?  They assured us that the war would be a cakewalk.  We would be greeted as liberators.  Democracy would seep out over the borders of Iraq to usher in a new Middle East.  Now, struggling to salvage their own credibility, they blame the debacle on poor planning and mismanagement.

There are probably about 10,000 Arabists in the United States—people who have lived for prolonged periods in the Middle East and speak Arabic.  At the inception of the war you could not have rounded up more than about a dozen who thought this was a good idea.  And I include all the Arabists in the State Department, the Pentagon and the intelligence community.  Anyone who had spent significant time in Iraq knew this would not work.  The war was not doomed because Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz did not do sufficient planning for the occupation.  The war was doomed, period.  It never had a chance.  And even a cursory knowledge of Iraqi history and politics made this apparent.

This is not to deny the stupidity of the occupation.  The disbanding of the Iraqi army; the ham-fisted attempt to install the crook and, it now turns out, Iranian spy Ahmed Chalabi in power; the firing of all Baathist public officials, including university professors, primary school teachers, nurses and doctors; the failure to secure Baghdad and the vast weapons depots from looters; allowing heavily armed American units to blast their way through densely populated neighborhoods, giving the insurgency its most potent recruiting tool—all ensured a swift descent into chaos.  But Iraq would not have held together even if we had been spared the gross incompetence of the Bush administration.  Saddam Hussein, like the more benign dictator Josip Broz Tito in the former Yugoslavia, understood that the glue that held the country together was the secret police.     

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Iraq, however, is different from Yugoslavia.  Iraq has oil—lots of it.  It also has water in a part of the world that is running out of water.  And the dismemberment of Iraq will unleash a mad scramble for dwindling resources that will include the involvement of neighboring states.  The Kurds, like the Shiites and the Sunnis, know that if they do not get their hands on water resources and oil they cannot survive.  But Turkey, Syria and Iran have no intention of allowing the Kurds to create a viable enclave.  A functioning Kurdistan in northern Iraq means rebellion by the repressed Kurdish minorities in these countries. The Kurds, orphans of the 20th century who have been repeatedly sold out by every ally they ever had, including the United States, will be crushed.  The possibility that Iraq will become a Shiite state, run by clerics allied with Iran, terrifies the Arab world.  Turkey, as well as Saudi Arabia, the United States and Israel, would most likely keep the conflict going by arming Sunni militias.  This anarchy could end with foreign forces, including Iran and Turkey, carving up the battered carcass of Iraq.  No matter what happens, many, many Iraqis are going to die.  And it is our fault. 

The neoconservatives—and the liberal interventionists, who still serve as the neocons’ useful idiots when it comes to Iran—have learned nothing.  They talk about hitting Iran and maybe even Pakistan with airstrikes.  Strikes on Iran would ensure a regional conflict.  Such an action has the potential of drawing Israel into war—especially if Iran retaliates for any airstrikes by hitting Israel, as I would expect Tehran to do.  There are still many in the U.S. who cling to the doctrine of pre-emptive war, a doctrine that the post-World War II Nuremberg laws define as a criminal “war of aggression.”
 
The occupation of Iraq, along with the Afghanistan occupation, has only furthered the spread of failed states and increased authoritarianism, savage violence, instability and anarchy.  It has swelled the ranks of our real enemies—the Islamic terrorists—and opened up voids of lawlessness where they can operate and plot against us.  It has scuttled the art of diplomacy.  It has left us an outlaw state intent on creating more outlaw states.  It has empowered Iran, as well as Russia and China, which sit on the sidelines gleefully watching our self-immolation.  This is what George W. Bush and all those “reluctant hawks” who supported him have bequeathed us. 

What is terrifying is not that the architects and numerous apologists of the Iraq war have learned nothing, but that they may not yet be finished.
 
Chris Hedges, the former Middle East bureau chief for The New York Times, spent seven years in the Middle East.  He was part of the paper’s team of reporters who won the 2002 Pulitzer Prize for coverage of global terrorism.  He is the author of “War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning.”  His latest book is “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America.” 


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By Mortgage, October 1, 2007 at 11:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hello, my name is Mortgage . Mortge calculator.  http://mortage.iblogger.org/mortage_643.html  Mortgege.

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By Nabih Ammari, August 21, 2007 at 2:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To: 95413 by Peter RV on 8/16 at 12:06 PM.
( Unregistered Commenter )

Peter,

Thank you for expressing a strong position in support of what I had commented on the connections of Israel,Oil and Wars in Iraq out of which the name of Saddam Hussein came naturally to mind.What has impressed most about your comments was the question you addressed to Tony Wicher:“Did it occur to you that Saddam might have a positive side
considering the Iraqi conditions?”.

With your permission and Tony’s permission I wish to
provide both of you with some responses stem from my counless business visits to Iraq in the seventies and eighties:

Since Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in August of 1990 till present time,the American people had been
subjected to constant and steady and relentless
barrage of half truth,aimed to dehumanize and demonize Saddam Hussein.I regret very much to say that the American people did not have the slightest chance of hearing the real grievances of Iraq which
compelled Saddam to invade Kuwait which resulted in the first Gulf war in 1991,whch in turn was the
forerunner of the present quagmire in Iraq.The first Gulf war of 1991 gave birth to America’s
second Gulf war which started in March of 2003 till
present time.After all, Saddam Hussein was our ally
against Iran during President Reagan’s eight years
in the White HouseInstead of listening to his grievances and try to help him getting out of his
financial difficulty he ended up facing after eight
years of ferocious war with Iran,we suckered him to invade and we made sure there were no shortage of
propagandist against him and his supporters.

Well,Peter,Tom,and anyone else who cares to listen
I feel that it is about time to tell some of the
information I accumulated about Saddam through the
years since he was Head of Iraqi “Mukhabarat” which
meant"Intelligence and Secret Police” after which he
became Vice President and eventually President of
Iraq.Just for the sake of answering the question
Peter raised,I shall concentrate on some of the
aspects of Saddam’s positive side since the negative aspects have become boring to hear due to
17 years of broadcasting since he invaded Kuwait.
It is ironic we did not hear them when he invaded
Iran in 1980 and until his war with Iran stopped
in 1988.Amazing,is not it???.At any rate,some of
the aspects of Saddam’s positive side can be outlined as follows:

1-Saddam Hussein was a secular ruler.He was a Suni
while his Vise President was a Kurd and most members of his cabinet were Shi’a.His Foreign Minister ,Tariq Aziz is a Chritian Arab who became
Deputy Prime Minister,later on.

2-Saddam moved Iraq from level of a Third World country to the level of a rapidly developing
country in all fields without exceptions.

3-Saddam was hated by the clerical Mullahs of Iran
because he refused to submit to their theocratic
rule and their Islamic Rvolution.He was a true Arab
nationalist which made the Mullahs in Iran hate him
even more.He was the warrior who protected the whole Arab countries in the Gulf from taken over by the Iranian Islamic Revolution.Hence,he indirectly
protected American interest in the oil rich Gulf.

4-Saddam kept the Iraqi population mosaic,made of
Suni,Shi’i,Kurds,Turkomans,Christian Arabs and
other smaller minorities,glued together through
his iron-fist rule which was really the only way to rule Iraq diverse and conflicting forces.
Sincerely,
Nabih Ammari
An Independent in Ohio.

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By Nabih Ammari, August 21, 2007 at 2:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To: 95413 by Peter RV on 8/16 at 12:06 PM.
( Unregistered Commenter )

Peter,

Thank you for expressing a strong position in support of what I had commented on the connections of Israel,Oil and Wars in Iraq out of which the name of Saddam Hussein came naturally to mind.What has impressed most about your comments was the question you addressed to Tony Wicher:“Did it occur to you that Saddam might have a positive side
considering the Iraqi conditions?”.

With your permission and Tony’s permission I wish to
provide both of you with some responses stem from my counless business visits to Iraq in the seventies and eighties:

Since Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in August of 1990 till present time,the American people had been
subjected to constant and steady and relentless
barrage of half truth,aimed to dehumanize and demonize Saddam Hussein.I regret very much to say that the American people did not have the slightest chance of hearing the real grievances of Iraq which
compelled Saddam to invade Kuwait which resulted in the first Gulf war in 1991,whch in turn was the
forerunner of the present quagmire in Iraq.The first Gulf war of 1991 gave birth to America’s
second Gulf war which started in March of 2003 till
present time.After all, Saddam Hussein was our ally
against Iran during President Reagan’s eight years
in the White HouseInstead of listening to his grievances and try to help him getting out of his
financial difficulty he ended up facing after eight
years of ferocious war with Iran,we suckered him to invade and we made sure there were no shortage of
propagandist against him and his supporters.

Well,Peter,Tom,and anyone else who cares to listen
I feel that it is about time to tell some of the
information I accumulated about Saddam through the
years since he was Head of Iraqi “Mukhabarat” which
meant"Intelligence and Secret Police” after which he
became Vice President and eventually President of
Iraq.Just for the sake of answering the question
Peter raised,I shall concentrate on some of the
aspects of Saddam’s positive side since the negative aspects have become boring to hear due to
17 years of broadcasting since he invaded Kuwait.
It is ironic we did not hear them when he invaded
Iran in 1980 and until his war with Iran stopped
in 1988.Amazing,is not it???.At any rate,some of
the aspects of Saddam’s positive side can be outlined as follows:

1-Saddam Hussein was a secular ruler.He was a Suni
while his Vise President was a Kurd and most members of his cabinet were Shi’a.His Foreign Minister ,Tariq Aziz is a Chritian Arab who became
Deputy Prime Minister,later on.

2-Saddam moved Iraq from level of a Third World country to the level of a rapidly developing
country in all fields without exceptions.

3-Saddam was hated by the clerical Mullahs of Iran
because he refused to submit to their theocratic
rule and their Islamic Rvolution.He was a true Arab
nationalist which made the Mullahs in Iran hate him
even more.He was the warrior who protected the whole Arab countries in the Gulf from taken over by the Iranian Islamic Revolution.Hence,he indirectly
protected American interest in the oil rich Gulf.

4-Saddam kept the Iraqi population mosaic,made of
Suni,Shi’i,Kurds,Turkomans,Christian Arabs and
other smaller minorities,glued together through
his iron-fist rule which was really the only way to rule Iraq diverse and conflicting forces.
Sincerely,
Nabih Ammari
An Independent in Ohio.

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By Nabih Ammari, August 21, 2007 at 1:20 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To:955oo by athe on 8/16 at 1:20pm
(392 comments total)

Allow me to expand on your statement"Indeed,the premise that educational and cultural advancement by
Iraq has factual merit.To me the threatened party is
Israel,not big oil”.

You have hit it at the tareget.However,big oil comes
into the dirty game as a by-product of the trend in policy which tries hard to dictate,or at least tries to have a big say in it before the trend
develops.The real developers of the trend in policy
are usually the ideologues holding sensitive or key
government positions.I have a name for these
ideologues.I personally call them"Infiltrators”
because they have their own agenda to fulfil.The oil
barons join the effort of the “Infiltrators"who usually are helped greatly by the self-appointed
“Experts” in the big tanks institutions which overwhelm Washington DC area.Instead of challenging
of what those groups are doing,the large segment of the media join the intrcoures.And the snow ball starts rolling in momentum due to other parties joining the trend.The other parties are the wars
profiteers such as the Military Industrial complex
which President Dwight Eisenhower warened against
the detrimental effect MIC would have on our lives.

Blackwater,for example,is a by-product of the Military Industrial Complex(MIC).Hence,they are part of the much bigger circle of wars profiteers of
which big oil is the major beneficiaries for the
obvious reason:as war starts in the Middle East,
the price of oil skyrockets.

The Israel Firsters have their own a genda and the war profiteers have their own including Big Oil.
Combine allof them together and you will have a
bandit of evil cohorts who have destroyed Iraq.
Sincerely,
Nabih Ammari
An Idependent in Ohio.

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By Tony Wicher, August 19, 2007 at 1:49 pm Link to this comment

Re #95843 by Inherit The Wind on 8/18 at 6:12 pm

This is Truthdig, run by progressive/socialist Robert Scheer. It does not seem likely that he would authorize a policy of censoring everybody but Godsend. It’s more likely that the weekend blog monitor has been sniffing glue.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 18, 2007 at 7:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I see now that Truthdig.com is no longer a tableau for an exchange of ideas. It is now nothing more than a propaganda platform for the crudest, basest anti-semitism that is found outside of neo-nazi or arab extremist web-sites.

GodSend can post his phony-bull-ony lies and and slanders of the ENTIRE Jewish religion with impunity, but contradicting and correcting his foul lies results in censorship.

If he is the only one who can post, and can post ANYTHING, but everyone else is censored, including Tony Wicher, then why is anybody bothering to post here, or even read this trivia.

If GodSend’s vision of the world ever comes to pass then I will know for CERTAIN that either God does not exist, or that He hates all Mankind because He has sentenced us all to GodSend’s vision—which is pure, living Hell.

Quite frankly, with this weird, biased censorship, Falsedig.com has become a barren source of amusement.  I doubt I’ll post here much anymore.  What’s the point?  It’s like swimming in a cesspool.

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By Tony Wicher, August 18, 2007 at 5:00 pm Link to this comment

#95800 by Peter RV on 8/18 at 12:23 pm

This looks more incompetent than deliberate. Truthdig seems to have hired somebody’s junior high-school nephew at $1.00 an hour to do blog monitoring on weekends. If they keep this up, I won’t vote for them at next year’s Webbys.

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By Peter RV, August 18, 2007 at 1:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Atheo and Wicher,
I have the same complaint about my postings, agravated by the fact that Censor won’t me let register (tried several times, receiving ‘thanks’ for accepting my membership but without consequence).
My postings, even when accepted, are very often delayed so much that they finally don’t make much sense for the discussion. It is a sort of, New York Times tactics to postpone the news ‘unfit to print’ until it dies of a natural death.
It would be desirable if the Censorship would clarify itself on this issue.

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By atheo, August 18, 2007 at 11:31 am Link to this comment

For a free and open forum try iraq-war.ru

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By Tony Wicher, August 18, 2007 at 11:01 am Link to this comment

Re #95757 by the 1Sgt on 8/18 at 2:08 am

Sarge,

All I can say is that all your posts that I have seen have been non-abusive, on topic and valuable contributions to the discussion. I cannot imagine why Truthdig would do this. Truthdig, may we have an expanation, please?

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By the 1Sgt, August 18, 2007 at 3:08 am Link to this comment

THE WEB ADMINISTRATORS HAVE BANNED ME FROM POSTING ON THIS WEBSITE AND ERASED MY POSTS. THERE IS REALLY NO WAY TO CONTINUE INTELLIGENT DISCUSSION HERE WHEN THE POLICIES ARE THAT OF A POLICE STATE.

SPECIAL MEASURES HAD TO BE TAKEN TO POST THIS MESSAGE

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By Tony Wicher, August 17, 2007 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment

#95617 by Nabih Ammari on 8/17 at 5:01 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“What has happened to Iraq is not just a tragedy but
also a colossal crime of gigantic proportions.”

Nabih,

A crime against all humanity, indeed. Hanging is too good for the perpetrators.

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By Joe McCarthy, August 17, 2007 at 1:06 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Finally your site is under control. 

Kick those bastards which dare post an opinion.

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By atheo, August 17, 2007 at 11:10 am Link to this comment

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By Tony Wicher, August 17, 2007 at 10:14 am Link to this comment

Re #95614 by Douglas Chalmers on 8/17 at 4:09 am

Thanks for the support. Of course, my comments were not off topic, but some idiot blog monitor who has not been following the conversation can’t be expected to see that, I guess.

Briefly, I was only going to reply to Peter RV, atheo and Nabih that I agree with them that Saddam did have a positive side in modernizing Iraq, advancing gender equality and other forms of social progress, and that Nabih’s claim that the stronger Iraq became under Saddam the more it was a threat to U.S. regional hegemony is absolutely correct. However, I think it should also be said that Saddam destroyed his own accomplisments and ruined his country by engaging in two wars, first with Iran and then with Kuwait. History will not judge him kindly for his belicosity and his bad judgment.

Please oh please, dear monitor, don’t delete this.

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By Nabih Ammari, August 17, 2007 at 6:01 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To: 95585 Tony Wicher on 8/16 at 8:35 PM.

You stated that you were struck by the dignified
manner in which Saddam Hussein had faced his hanging.
You were not alone.The whole world was struck as you
were.
I read in some Arabic language journals ( I am fluent
in Arabic ) that when his executioners started chanting long live Muqtada Al-Sader,the Shi’i cleric
who has strong connections with Iran,Saddam’s arch
enemy,Saddam asked calmly but sarcastically"is that
what you call your manhood??”.Others mentioned that
he recited couple of verses of Arabic poetry the
translation of which might be the following:

Many a fool danced on the corps of their masters as
their masters died.But do not assume that their dance may elevate them to higher level than the
level of their masters,because Lions Will Remain
Lions and Dogs Will Remain Dogs.

I am not sure how true the above is but that exactly what I read.However,there can be no smoke without a
fire.

Compare what I described above to the conditions he was in when he was captured.One may conclude that
Saddam had split personality:one was dignified just
before his hangingand one pathetic,humbled and distituted personality showed to the world when he
was captured.Such contrast does not make sense,does
it??

The younger daughter of Saddam Hussein(his favorite)
lives in Jordan.Her name is Raghad.Although it is almost impossible to contact her,let alone interviewing her,some Jordanian reporters had managed to reach her,ether by hook or crook,and reported that she told them that she believed that her father was drugged during the process of closing
on on him and was deliberately shown as a pathetic figure mainly to dehumanize him and to kill the spirit of his followers and in turn the spirit of
the Arab people in the street-in short,the spirit of
the whole Arab Nation.And she believed that his
handlers and executioners had already failed because
her father symbolized something greater than himself.

Rest assured that all of the above have been written
not in defense of Saddam Hussein.Not at all.I have
my own critisims and harsh condemnations of some aspects of his iron-fist rule of Iraq and I will keep
such critisms and condemnations to myself at present
time.My intention here is to expose as much as I
possibly can the deception which the American people
and the rest of the world were subjected to in the
process of destroying Iraq as a functioning society,
rich in cultural heritage and rich in history of
more than five thousands years which gave the world
Hemorabi,Gulgamesh,Saladin,and the great Abbasyde
civilation which translated and preserved the great
Greak civilation and transmitted to the world.

What has happened to Iraq is not just a tragedy but
also a colossal crime of gigantic proportions.
Sincerely,
Nabih Ammari
An Independent in Ohio.

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 17, 2007 at 5:09 am Link to this comment

#95590 + #95585 by Tony Wicher on 8/16 at 9:23 pm: “...For some reason the last several comments I made seem to have disappeared….”
+ #95585 by Tony Wicher: “...By the way, in memoriam of Saddam, I would like to say something. I was very struck by the video of his hanging. What struck me was never mentioned by any of the newscasters as they played the scene over and over. It was that Saddam looked dignified, and died like a man. When Bush is convicted for war crimes and treason, which I hope he will be, I would like him to be hanged too, just to see how much dignity he could muster….”

Its the new order, they’ve decided to take Fridays out on you guys - er, I mean “off-topic posts are being blitzed generally. Things were getting really bad in some of the Hillary topics, + religion topics. Everyone has suffered. Just think of it as something you have sacrificed for the greater good of Cally-fornia…..

Interesting to notice what you said about Saddam at his demise. I agree totally and he had obviously re-made himself after losing his family and his country. Like some Shakespearean King Lear, he died more of a man then than Bush or Cheney will ever be…...

Quote Baghdad Burning: A Lynching - “... One of them called out to Saddam, “Go to hell…” (in Arabic). Saddam looked down disdainfully and answered “Heya hay il marjala…?” which is basically saying, “Is this your manhood…?”. http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

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By the 1Sgt, August 17, 2007 at 2:39 am Link to this comment

I have noticed the same

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By Tony Wicher, August 16, 2007 at 10:23 pm Link to this comment

Folks,

For some reason the last several comments I made seem to have disappeared.

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By Tony Wicher, August 16, 2007 at 9:35 pm Link to this comment

By the way, in memoriam of Saddam, I would like to say something. I was very struck by the video of his hanging. What struck me was never mentioned by any of the newscasters as they played the scene over and over. It was that Saddam looked dignified, and died like a man. When Bush is convicted for war crimes and treason, which I hope he will be, I would like him to be hanged too, just to see how much dignity he could muster.

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By atheo, August 16, 2007 at 2:20 pm Link to this comment

Tony,

Let’s remember that most of what we “know” about Saddam Hussein’s Bath party regime is just demonisation designed to sell aggression on the Iraqis. Indeed, Nabih’s premise that educational and cultural advancement was the real threat posed by Iraq has factual merit. To me, the threatened party is Israel, not big oil.

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By Peter RV, August 16, 2007 at 1:06 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#95413 by Tony Wicher
Just what kind of argument is your saying that Nabih Ammari’s article ‘is a little too complimentary to Saddam Hussein’? Did it occur to you that Saddam might have had a positive side considering the Iraqi conditions? Without claiming any expertize on Iraq, you could safely state that at least one more million of Iraqis would be alive today if he were still in charge.
Also, that he was a ‘dictator in the mold of Stalin, whom he admired’? Well, we don’t know whether that is true or not,(this may be a truth of the cathegory of Ajmadinejad’s wanting to wipe Israel off the map) but our beloved FDR certainly did admire Stalin. How about that?
Besides, every ruler belongs to his own cathegory, whether ‘dictator’ or ‘democrat’ ( these two names have been made equally odious by the NeoCon vulgar propaganda to promote the War). If one is looking for the truth, what difference does it make if it doesnt fit someone’s prejudices? We are not writing here for the NYT, are we?
Your arguments, normally, are more interesting.

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By Tony Wicher, August 16, 2007 at 9:23 am Link to this comment

Re #95330 by Nabih Ammari on 8/15 at 11:57 pm

Nabih,

I also agree with the great majority of your post, especially the part about Jesse Helms saying that if Israel did not exist, we (that is, we imperialists) would have had to invent it. I do take some exception to this part: 

-After the Iran-Iraq war which lasted from 1980-1988
Iraq was becoming a role model for the rest of the
Arab countries to emulate,in most fields of human
endeavors,ranging from genuine political idependence
to emancipation of women to elimination of illiteracy to the best health-care system in the Arab World to the superb dedication of the Iraqi elites and Iraqi professionals to the progress and advancement of Iraq as a sovereign identity capable of keeping Iran’s ambitions to dominate the whole region in check,at all times.All of that meant that Iraq had become more powerful than its actual size.Such developments were incompatible with the agenda of the oil interest and of course the Israel Firsters as well.”

I think this is a little too complimentary to Saddam. I would say that Saddam was a dictator in the mold of Stalin, whom he admired. At first he did do a lot to modernize Iraq, but I would say he really blew it by attacking Iran, which destroyed Iraq’s economy and wasted all that he had accomplished. The Kuwait invasion was partly an attempt to grab enough oil to pay off his debts.

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By atheo, August 16, 2007 at 8:56 am Link to this comment

Nabih,

While I agree with almost all of your post, I don’t see the case made as to how Saddam Hussein posed an extraordinary threat to oil interests.You state that Iraq was ” capable of keeping Iran’s
ambitions to dominate the whole region in check”. To me, this would indicate that preserving the status quo would have been in the interests of the West.
I would like to see somebody lay out the supposed diferences between Iraqi and other producer’s oil development and trade policies that made Iraq a unique problem for big oil. Short of a convincing, major divergence, it would be obvious that the destruction of Iraq is about nothing other than maintaining Israeli dominance and serves only zionist interests.

Tony, Yes the MIC is an ever present power in US politics. However the application of warmaking capability is not willy nilly. The victims are not drawn at random. Rumsfeld and Cheney serve Jewish capital and the JINSA organisation is a good starting point for you to assess the confluence of zionist power with the MIC. The interests of the Rockefeller family and big oil in general have fallen from primary importance. If big oil were predominant, the US would have cut Israel off decades ago and Arabists would be running foreign policy. Reagan and his old testament religious fanatics would have never risen to the top level of US power. As usual, finance rules, commodities and labor are secondary.

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By Nabih Ammari, August 16, 2007 at 12:57 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Anyone who thinks that there is no relationship among
the issues:Israel,Oil and wars in Iraq is naive-very
naive.Reasons:
-Most of the Neocons who pushed very hard for the war in Iraq were(and still are) strong supporters of Israel.They are and will remain the Israeli apologists or as some writers called them the Israel
Firsters in the U.S.More importantly,they know how
to play the political game very well and within the
legal limits of the land.That does not mean that
deception,fabrications,distortions,misinformation
and sophisticated lies are absent from their activities;whether such activities are conducted in
both houses of Congress,Executive Branch or in the
Main-Stream Media or even in some Christian Churches
run by Right Wing Evangelists.
-In 1995 Senator Jessy Helms was the Chairman of the
Foreign Relations Committee.In his defense of the
huge amount of aid allocated to Israel he stated that if Israel did not exist,it had to be invented.
I ask:it had to be invented for what??? The answer
is complex and lenthy one but certainly known to any
serious student of the Middle East political affairs
-Saddam Hussein’s miscalculations in Kuwait and in
Palistine/Israel gave the Neocons,his enemies in the
West and Iraqi exiles who were encouraged by Iran,his
arch enemy,enough ammunition to push harder in their calls for war.Hence,two “Bushy Wars” were waged for
his miscalculations which the servers of the oil
interest and Israeli interest used effectively in
selling the cry for war to the innocent American
puplic.
-After the Iran-Iraq war which lasted from 1980-1988
Iraq was becoming a role model for the rest of the
Arab countries to emulate,in most fields of human
endeavors,ranging from genuine political idependence
to emancipation of women to elimination of illiteracy
to the best health-care system in the Arab World to
the superb dedication of the Iraqi elites and Iraqi
professionals to the progress and advancement of Iraq
as a sovereign identity capable of keeping Iran’s
ambitions to dominate the whole region in check,at all times.All of that meant that Iraq had become more powerful than its actual size.Such developments
were incompatible with the agenda of the oil interest and of course the Israel Firsters as well.
The rest has become history.
Based on all of the above plus the brilliant article of Mr.Chris Hedges entitled"Beyond Disaster”,one
may conclude that the connections amongst Oil,Israel
and the wars against Iraq are indeed profound.
Sincerely,
Nabih Ammari
An Independent in Ohio.

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By Tony Wicher, August 15, 2007 at 10:48 pm Link to this comment

Re #95272 by atheo on 8/15 at 6:02 pm

“Tony, I just read Thy Will Be Done, a 900 page history of the Rockefeller families businesses. It just so happens that two individuals were the key players in removing Nelson Rockefeller from national politics for good in 1976, Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. In view of the decline of US hegemony and financial wherewithal following the lost war in Vietnam, this fits neatly. An American era ended, a new one based on international banking and finance began. Tony, your analyses seem to reflect the 60’s not the present.”

atheo,

Maybe I’m an old fogey, but I am looking at a process of decline and fall of an empire which began with the Vietnam war but is only now after forty years reaching its denoument. I have been watching events all this time and there is a continuity that goes back to the sixties and back farther to WW II and WW I. The grip of the military-industrial complex on the U.S. was not broken by Vietnam. The same bastards, such as Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. and those whom the represent are still running things, and as for the Democrats, they have been almost as bad as Republicans, and still are. The only one running for President that does not talk like an imperialist is Kucinich, and so he is treated as some sort of left-wing weirdo by the mainstream media.

The military budget stands at $750 billion, far exceeding the rest of the world combined. Yet our army is broken and on the verge of falling apart. Where is all that money going?

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By atheo, August 15, 2007 at 7:02 pm Link to this comment

Of course Saddam Hussein was suckered into invading Kuwait, that’s a well known and established fact, however it niether proves that it was to eliminate an enemy of Israel or to consolidate control of oil.
The oil trade has changed totally since the days of Mossadegh, anymore, his proposals would seem tame, the same could be said for Saddam Hussein’s challenges to oil multinationals in the early 70’s. What matters is the current situation, not historical positions:

1) At present, Iran is as open to multinational corporate penetration as any significant oil producer, yet the US is interfering with international trade. Why is that?

2) Saddam Hussein was dealing with Haliburton and open to increased opportunities for US multinationals in 2002, yet the US invaded. Why was that?

3) The US installed a puppet regime in Lebanon, yet Israel created a pretext to invade the nation in 2006. Why was that?

None of these events have furthered the interests of US based multinational corporations or improved western control over or access to oil.

Tony, I just read Thy Will Be Done, a 900 page history of the Rockefeller families businesses. It just so happens that two individuals were the key players in removing Nelson Rockefeller from national politics for good in 1976, Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. In view of the decline of US hegemony and financial wherewithal following the lost war in Vietnam, this fits neatly. An American era ended, a new one based on international banking and finance began. Tony, your analyses seem to reflect the 60’s not the present.

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By Tony Wicher, August 15, 2007 at 5:56 pm Link to this comment

Re #95223 by the 1Sgt on 8/15 at 2:29 pm

I’ve been monitoring your conversation here Tony and Atheo. I’m starting to wonder if this was a double ploy all along, with Saddam faked into attacking Kuwait after US threat assessments delivered to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia were ignored. Saddam rolls into Kuwait and this gave the US strategy life. US policy in the gulf has always been centered on protection of “oil”. This meant literal ownership of the theater, only possible with garrisoned forces. Interesting…”

Sarge,

The thesis that Saddam was sucker-punched in Gulf War I was put forth at the time by Walt Rostow, among others. I’m sure Bush wanted a war, just on general principles. Bushes always love war. They’re in the war business.

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By the 1Sgt, August 15, 2007 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment

I’ve been monitoring your conversation here Tony and Atheo. I’m starting to wonder if this was a double ploy all along, with Saddam faked into attacking Kuwait after US threat assessments delivered to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia were ignored. Saddam rolls into Kuwait and this gave the US strategy life. US policy in the gulf has always been centered on protection of “oil”. This meant literal ownership of the theater, only possible with garrisoned forces. Interesting…

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By Tony Wicher, August 15, 2007 at 2:41 pm Link to this comment

atheo,

The Republican-Jewish site is certainly no surprise. Yes indeed, Jews have been moving righward because of the alliance of Zionism with imperialism. I forsee a radical split among Jews if this keeps up, between those who have thrown their lot in with the imperialists and those whose better natures forbid them from doing so.

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By Tony Wicher, August 15, 2007 at 2:15 pm Link to this comment

atheo,

I completely agree with the Antony Loewenstein article.

“Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I’ll tell you what I think the real threat and actually has been since 1990 - it’s the threat against Israel… And this is the threat that dare not speak its name, because the Europeans don’t care deeply about that threat, I will tell you frankly. And the American government doesn’t want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell.”

I don’t agree with this. Iraq was no real threat to Israel either. The only “threat” there has ever been in this region is countries that “threaten” U.S. hegemony. U.S. and Israeli propaganda join together to interpret any threat to such hegemony as a threat to Israel. When Mossagdeh nationalized the oil in Iran he threatened that hegemony, was overthrown and replaced by the compliant Shah. The Shah was overthrown by the current non-compliant Shia theocracy. It immediately became the biggest enemy of the U.S. - not because it was any threat to the U.S. considered as a democratic country, but as a threat to U.S. imperial hegemony in the Middle East. Saddam was considered a compliant client and given aid against Iran by the Bush I administration. But then Saddam made the mistake of invading Kuwait. Some say the Bush I Administration suckered him into it. In any case, after that he was no longer treated as a client. Of course the imperialists have been gunning for Syria all this time too. With Bush 2 they thought they were going to finish the job in the whole region, which they called “spreading democracy in the Middle East”. Meanwhile, Israel (“the only democracy in the Middle East”) have remained their ferociously loyal attack dogs.

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By Tony Wicher, August 15, 2007 at 1:48 pm Link to this comment

atheo

Did you watch this video?

http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2879&id=10983-5016030-hp_Z6J&t=2

Strange that everything Cheney said in 1994 on the video has come true in the wake of Gulf War 2. Why did he change his mind? Why did he decide that to “take out Saddam” was the right thing to do after all? “Imperial hubris” is the only reason I can think of.

Like you, I am wary of another “false flag” attack coming up.

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By Tony Wicher, August 14, 2007 at 11:24 pm Link to this comment

It seems to me that you see the problem as U.S. policy that is against U.S. interests because it favors Israeli interests, whereas the problem I see is U.S. policy that is against the interests of the American people in that it increases the wealth and power of imperialists while impoverishing and disempowering the people. In both cases policies that do not benefit the United States, that is the American people considered as a whole, result. In both cases it is a failure of democracy within the United States that is the biggest danger. But I don’t say the failure comes from an outside source, such as Israel. The rot comes from within.

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By atheo, August 14, 2007 at 10:02 pm Link to this comment

Does the Israeli Tail Wag the American Dog?

- If the United States is unable to distinguish the world’s or its own real needs from those of another state and that state’s lobby, then it simply cannot say that it always acts in its own best interests. By Kathleen and Bill Christison (ex CIA Analysts) http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17217.htm
- Is Americans’ support of Israel unshakeable? By Linda S. Heard, Online Journal Contributing Writer http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_1986.shtml
- Israel and US interests aren’t identical By Antony Loewenstein http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=4387

January 26, 1998 Letter by leading Zionists and neoconservatives asking US to attack Iraq and change its regime http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm
“Groups Push For Sanctions, Fear US Will Falter on Iran,” By Ori Nir, Forward - Sep 1, 2006 issue
http://www.forward.com/articles/groups-push-for-sanctions-fear-us-will-falter-on/
“Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I’ll tell you what I think the real threat and actually has been since 1990 - it’s the threat against Israel… And this is the threat that dare not speak its name, because the Europeans don’t care deeply about that threat, I will tell you frankly. And the American government doesn’t want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell.” Pentagon Defense Intelligence Board Member Philip Zeikow, 10 September 2002
Contrary to Chomsky, the US has no interest in supporting Israel http://www.voltairenet.org/article143635.html

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By Tony Wicher, August 14, 2007 at 9:47 pm Link to this comment

Re #94970 by atheo on 8/14 at 8:19 pm

The occupation of Iraq is part of a general project for hegemony in the area. It’s imperialism in its last stages of stupidity and madness. The neocons thought they were the last superpower. They thought they could install a puppet government, take a big piece of the oil, and go on to Iran. Zionists among them, who are certainly many, egged them on. That was and still is the plan. It’s stupid, it’s headed for failure, but it is the plan. It is a lot like Vietnam. In that conflict, the imperialists maintained control, and we have had 40 years of Republican reaction in this country, to the point where we are the laughingstock of the civilized world. They must not maintain control this time. Are you with me?

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By atheo, August 14, 2007 at 9:45 pm Link to this comment

Tony, what you need to do is detail some facts linking big oil to the promotion of the invasion, something comparable to this:

Republican Jewish Coalition

http://www.rjchq.org/

The last decade has seen tremendous growth in the number of jews identifying with Republican ideas and the GOP. The Republican Jewish Coalition, founded in 1985, is the sole voice of Jewish Republicans to Republican decision makers and the Jewish community, expressing our viewpoint on a wide variety of issues.

The Republican Jewish Coalition is the well-respected representative of the Jewish community to Republican elected officials and party leaders and is the pre-eminent Republican organization in the Jewish community.

With a strong presence in Washington, D.C. and chapters around the country, the RJC is making a difference for the growing Jewish Republican movement in America.

The group has supported a hard-line approach to negotiating an Israeli-Palestinian peace accord, criticizing President Clinton for “appeasing Chairman Arafat” instead of requiring “responsibility and compliance from the Palestinian Authority.” Allied with Israel’s Likud government, the group supported the construction of the controversial Har Homa settlement in East Jerusalem, over Palestinian objections that the project jeopardized the peace process. It also supports continued American military support of Israel, including a recent project to build an anti-ballistic missile system.

On the domestic front, the RJC supports school choice and voucher initiatives, saying they help curb the “risk of assimilation” for some Jews living in the United States. “By lessening the financial burdens, vouchers would make a Jewish education available to the entire Jewish community,” reads one position paper. The group has supported welfare reform, lowering the estate and capital gains taxes, voluntary prayer by student groups in public school, the legal right to perform abortions, as well as tougher crime laws, including a California-style “three strikes” laws for some federal crimes.

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By atheo, August 14, 2007 at 9:44 pm Link to this comment

Continue from above members include:

Lewis M. Eisenberg
Vice Chairman

Mr. Eisenberg served from 1995 to 2001 as Chairman of the Board of Commissioners of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. The Port Authority is also, of course, the owner of the World Trade Center, and Mr. Eisenberg led the agency through the first three months of recovery and clean-up after the terrorist attacks of September 11. He was recently named a member of New Yorks Lower Manhattan Redevelopment Authority, which will spearhead the rebuilding of Ground Zero.

Mr. Eisenberg is a long-time Republican activist and was recently elected Finance Chairman of the Republican National Committee. He has raised millions of dollars for the Republican Party and Republican candidates. He served on New York Governor George Patakis transition team and was a key advisor to New Jersey Governor Christine Whitman.

Michael David Epstein
Vice Chairman


Mr Epstein is very active in the Jewish community; he serves in a leadership capacity in the Melvin J. Berman Hebrew Academy, the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA), Aish HaTorah, the Jewish National Fund, and the State of Israel Bonds.

Lawrence Kadish
Honorary Chairman

He is the founding chairman of the Committee for Security and Peace in the Middle East and the American Middle East Information Network. Encouraged and supported by Mr. Kadish, these two institutions have sought to strengthen democracy and encourage pluralism in the Middle East and around the globe. Mr. Kadish has been a supporter of the Investigative Project which conducted a strategic review of world wide terrorism and cautioned Americans on the eve of September 11th that systematic terrorism was threatening our nation?s security. Lawrence Kadish has also served as a contributor to various organizations including the Foundation for Media and Public Affairs, the Foundation for Responsible Government, the Center for Security Policy and the Drug Free America Foundation.

Lawrence Kadish has been topping lists of Republican donors since George H. W. Bush was president.

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By atheo, August 14, 2007 at 9:19 pm Link to this comment

Tony,

You haven’t developed a coherent argument, how do the “record profits” relate to the occupation of Iraq?

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By Tony Wicher, August 14, 2007 at 9:01 pm Link to this comment

Re #94962 by atheo on 8/14 at 7:55 pm
——————————————————————————
I believe there is something Eisenhower called the “military-industrial complex” that profits from war. I believe that with Cheney and Bush it has the reins in its teeth and intends to go all the way to total dictatorship. It profits from all kinds of war. Cheney gets rich on it. Oil companies are rolling in record profits. Is that so hard to understand?

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By atheo, August 14, 2007 at 8:55 pm Link to this comment

Yes Tony, you cite “generally accepted” dogma from the likes of lifelong zionist and Israel lobby denier, Noam Chomsky. However, the dogma makes so little sense that you are unable to detail how it is working right now in regard to Iraq. I’m not asking for “authority” citations. I want you to explain why you believe.
By the way, I concur with your “imperialism” theory with the exception that it hasn’t been applicable for almost 40 years, since the US lost the excessively financed Vietnam war and had to drop the gold link. Keep trying, I have yet to hear you explain how $1,000/barrel Iraqi oil is serving America’s “imperial interests.

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By Tony Wicher, August 14, 2007 at 8:44 pm Link to this comment

“Tony, what case have you made? You suggest a book and cite incongruent references to OBL. What does OBL have to do with a “war for oil” in Iraq? You have not been able to summarise in your own words how the US war planners have benefitted US oil interests by their actions.”

OK, I have nothing better to do for the next half hour (at which point I intend to go watch yesterday’s rerun of “The Daily Show”) so I’ll give it a try. Please at least try to address my points, in your reply.

I do not believe I have to cite any particular book to support my claim that the primary interest of the Western powers in this part of the world is and has been oil sit it was discovered there. This is part of my general education. I believe in the importance of economics in determining political processes. I am not going to argue with you or cite authorities about this. They are too numerous to mention.

I also believe in a concept of imperialism, which simply means the idea of hegemony, of a sphere of compliant regimes, which can be exploited in the interest of the rulers of the empire. I believe the United States largely took over for the British in the Middle East after WW II, after they got out of Palestine just in time to let the Zionists take over. The U.S. has since had an hegemonic agenda which has culminated under Bush II. Imperial hubris has set in, and the empire is falling.

Do you agree with this picture, or do you not, and if not, where do you disagree? I say all this is common knowledge. 

Something pretty close to the general geopolitical picture of the world that I accept is to be found in Noam Chomsky, “Hegemony or Survival”.

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By atheo, August 14, 2007 at 12:16 pm Link to this comment

Tony, what case have you made? You suggest a book and cite incongruent references to OBL. What does OBL have to do with a “war for oil” in Iraq? You have not been able to summarise in your own words how the US war planners have benefitted US oil interests by their actions.

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By Tony Wicher, August 14, 2007 at 9:07 am Link to this comment

Tony,

“Your inability to make your case should give you pause.”

In your eyes, maybe. In the eyes of people with a real education and grasp of history, it’s open and shut.

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By atheo, August 14, 2007 at 8:38 am Link to this comment

Tony,

Your inability to make your case should give you pause. Yes, Britain furthered zionism, under intense pressure from Jewish creditors (the empire overextended and had to borrow, sound familiar?). Yes, FINANCIAL forces are dominant in US politics, without promotion from zionist wealth and media, no US Federal level politician can maintain office (with a scattered few exceptions). Unlike the “war for oil” thesis, these facts are easily proven and repeatable:

http://www.leftcurve.org/LC28WebPages/WarForIsrael.html

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By Tony Wicher, August 13, 2007 at 10:41 pm Link to this comment

Tony,

“Aramco is owned and operated by the government of Saudi Arabia. OBL has never considered the oil industry a particular focus. He is almost certainly deceased in any event. How any of this supports your “war for oil” thesis is not coherently explained. I would suggest reading Daniel Yergin’s The Prize for a better understanding of the oil industry.”

atheo,

I have no idea whether bin Laden is deceased or not. But I do believe that economic forces are the decisive ones in politics, and that oil has been the primary bone of contention in the Middle East since it was discovered there. That makes the whole U.S. imperial geopolitical strategy understandable to me. You seem to believe that it’s all the result of Israeli/Zionist manipulation of the U.S. government and media. This to me is the tail wagging the dog. Zionists at the beginning of the 20th century knew they needed a protector and they made a deal with the British. You know this, right? The Americans took over for the British and European colonialists at the end of WW II. Are we agreed on that? The U.S. has attempted to keep hegemony in the are ever since.Why? One main reason: OIL. Not Israel. Israel is just a pretext.

This is history. This is not some conspiracy theory. This is what is going on right under your nose.

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By atheo, August 13, 2007 at 9:09 pm Link to this comment

Tony,

Aramco is owned and operated by the government of Saudi Arabia. OBL has never considered the oil industry a particular focus. He is almost certainly deceased in any event. How any of this supports your “war for oil” thesis is not coherently explained. I would suggest reading Daniel Yergin’s The Prize for a better understanding of the oil industry.

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By Tony Wicher, August 13, 2007 at 7:11 pm Link to this comment

Tony,

“In what way does shock and awe provide an oil benefit. Please make a coherent argument.

Bin Laden never stated anything about selling oil as far as I know. If you have a source, could you share it? “

atheo,

Osama bin Laden is the son of the richest businessman in Saudi Arabia. He believes the U.S. is in Saudi Arabia for the oil, and has said so a million times. Look at any of his statements since he declared war on the U.S. in 1993. His whole economic objective is to take away the oil business from Aramco-Exxon-British Petroleum. Please read Michael Scheuer’s “Imperial Hubris” and also his earlier “Through Our Enemy’s Eyes” to get some sort of picture of the man. You sound capable of doing your own research, but I will look up the link for you. It’s authentic.

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 12, 2007 at 9:46 pm Link to this comment

#94310 by Tony Wicher on 8/12 at 2:54 pm: “...Re #94227 by atheo on 8/12 at 8:35 am: “...“Please flesh out your “war for oil” thesis. How exactly does it work? Really, not hypothetically. Is it going well? Does it explain the US’ rising economic hegemony ..........Atheo, I appreciate the challenge. No, it is going very badly for the imperialists. They are losing and getting desperate. The more desperate they get, the more desperate Israel gets, too, because they are in it together, and if the imperialists lose, so do the Zionists. Are they desperate enough to start a nuclear war…...”

Poor guys - butting heads but not reconciling your ‘arguments’ while the emenmy gets on with its “war for oil” anyway.

I was posting something on this too - see Ceyhan-Tblisi-Baku (BTC) oil pipeline issue at http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060726&articleId=2824  or my regional comments at #94193 by Douglas Chalmers on 8/12 at 5:10 am http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070810_lebanese_strike_a_blow_at_us_backed_government/  Cheers!

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By atheo, August 12, 2007 at 8:40 pm Link to this comment

Tony,

In what way does shock and awe provide an oil benefit. Please make a coherent argument.

Bin Laden never stated anything about selling oil as far as I know. If you have a source, could you share it?

Saddam Hussein was selling all the oil he could at $18/barrel until the invasion though. Current prices are over four times that and given that the US imports most of it’s oil consumption this must be factored into the current ongoing trade deficits which jeopardise the dollar’s exchange value.

You state:

“they can’t admit how badly they screwed up so they are plowing ahead”

This defies logic, nobody wastes $12 billion monthly ongoing simply to not admit that they shouldn’t do it. This seems like an extremely weak explanation that does not warrant credibility. The fact that it is taxpayers money is irrelevant because it is still money that they control. If in fact it is only about funneling money to their cronies, why would they choose a scam that only gets less than 10 cents on the dollar back to their buds?

Please keep working on this thesis. Or try presenting a new one.

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By Tony Wicher, August 12, 2007 at 8:09 pm Link to this comment

Re #94320 by atheo on 8/12 at 3:21 pm
(370 comments total)

“If it is “going badly”, please at least explain how it was supposed to work. Also explain why the US continues to spend $12 billion per month on the occupation if it isn’t producing their intended results. I can provide an explanation for why they continue the occupation, but it doesn’t include access to oil (which will be made available to the global market whenever the occupation ends).”

atheo,

Those are good questions. First, how was it supposed to work? Well, shock and awe, don’t you know. The Arabs were supposed to cower in fear at our awesome display of power. As neocon Michael Ledeen put it,
“Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business.” Now the idea that this could really work is the result of what Scheuer calls “imperial hubris”, the title of his book. Such hubris makes one miscalculate. One overestimates one’s own power, underestimates that of the enemy. As Sun Tzu put it, he who knows himself and his enemy will win every battle, but he who knows neither himself nor his enemy will lose every battle. Our idiot imperialists are in the latter category.

Next, why do the imperialists continue to spend $12 billion a month on the occupation? Well, they can’t admit how badly they screwed up so they are plowing ahead. On to Iran! Besides, they are not spending their own money, it’s the taxpayer’s money, which they are putting in their pockets via defense contracts. The more money goes into military spending, the richer they get.

Bin Laden has said that if the U.S. will just stop trying to control Arab governments and get out of the Middle East, he will be happy to sell us all the oil we want at a fair market price. I take him at his word. I for one would like to oblige him and get the hell out of there. But that does not translate into obscene profits for oil companies and defense contractors. And where does that leave Israel? Up shit creek without a paddle.

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By atheo, August 12, 2007 at 4:21 pm Link to this comment

Tony,
If it is “going badly”, please at least explain how it was supposed to work. Also explain why the US continues to spend $12 billion per month on the occupation if it isn’t producing their intended results. I can provide an explanation for why they continue the occupation, but it doesn’t include access to oil (which will be made available to the global market whenever the occupation ends).

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By Tony Wicher, August 12, 2007 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment

Re #94227 by atheo on 8/12 at 8:35 am
(368 comments total)

“Please flesh out your “war for oil” thesis. How exactly does it work? Really, not hypothetically.
Is it going well? Does it explain the US’ rising economic hegemony?”

Atheo,

I appreciate the challenge. No, it is going very badly for the imperialists. They are losing and getting desperate. The more desperate they get, the more desperate Israel gets, too, because they are in it together, and if the imperialists lose, so do the Zionists. Are they desperate enough to start a nuclear war? That remains to be seen.

Have you read “Imperial Hubris” by Micheal Scheuer, the former head of the CIA bin Laden desk in the late 90’s? I was very impressed by it. He and bin
Laden agree that that the U.S. invasion of not only Iraq but also Afghanistan exactly played into bin Laden’s hands. Our imperialists thought they were “the last remaining superpower”. They thought they could establish, in Bush I’s words, a “New World Order” (novo ordo seclorum, also on the $1 bill) where, as he put it, “what we say goes” anywhere in the world. These dreams of glory have faded, Americans are sick their rhetoric, and they would just like to have medical care, decent schools and bridges than don’t collapse. Will the people prevail, or will the imperialists manage to stamp out the last vestiges of American democracy? That is the question.

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By GodSend, August 12, 2007 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

God Bless You Cindy Sheehan!

http://smokingmirrors.blogspot.com

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By the 1Sgt, August 12, 2007 at 12:23 pm Link to this comment

#94252 by atheo on 8/12 at 10:42 am
(368 comments total)

the 1sgt,

Andrews AFB had fighters ready to go on 9/11 according to it’s official web site. That’s a few minutes from the pentagon, yet the pentagon was struck practically an hour after the second hit in NY. No, I don’t believe in such coincidental failures to protect the most defended site on Earth.
The pentagon also has SAMs which were never used, and then there’s Minetta’s testimony (the plane is ten miles out, do the orders still stand?). Keep trying.

======================================================
No need for me to try anything. You won’t listen. I was on active duty 24 years in the Air Force. I tell you our C3 was inept and our alertforce practically non-existent, consisting of Guard and reserve forces, un practiced and not ready but you don’t want to see the merit in that. They caught us with our pants down, completely by surprise (the military). The right hand did not know what the left hand was doing. This is borne out by the fact the 4th JET was headed for the white house and/or Congress before it crashed in PA. You get it? Even a 4th Jet and still no one was able to shoot it within minutes, even though Cheney had given the order. It crashed in PA because of the passengers.

Believe what you will.

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By atheo, August 12, 2007 at 11:45 am Link to this comment

August 12, 2007


U.S. And Israel Close Gap on Defense Aid Payouts

By REUTERS


JERUSALEM (Reuters) - The United States has yielded to some Israeli demands on how new U.S. military aid will be paid out, ending a brief dispute over the issue, an Israeli official involved in the talks said on Sunday…

“Tom Lantos, a U.S. congressional leader, described ratification of the aid increase to Israel as a certainty.

“(It) will receive congressional support and will guarantee, for the next decade, along with Israel’s own determination and military capability, the security of this nation,” he told reporters during a visit to Jerusalem.”

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL123912020070812?pageNumber=2&sp=true

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By atheo, August 12, 2007 at 11:42 am Link to this comment

the 1sgt,

Andrews AFB had fighters ready to go on 9/11 according to it’s official web site. That’s a few minutes from the pentagon, yet the pentagon was struck practically an hour after the second hit in NY. No, I don’t believe in such coincidental failures to protect the most defended site on Earth.
The pentagon also has SAMs which were never used, and then there’s Minetta’s testimony (the plane is ten miles out, do the orders still stand?). Keep trying.

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By the 1Sgt, August 12, 2007 at 10:36 am Link to this comment

#94100 by atheo on 8/11 at 6:44 pm
(365 comments total)

the 1sgt,

Am I to suppose that Clinton was responsible for the multiple excercises (that confused patriotic airmen) that occurred on 9/11? Ever hear about Able Danger? Did Clinton order the fighter jets to travel east over the Atlantic from Andrews AFB? Was it Clinton’s fault that those dispatched from Falmouth flew at 1/3 speed? Did Clinton force Rumsfeld to put himself in sole charge of decisions involving shoot downs as of 6/01? The questions are many.
=====================================================
The questions will always remain Atheo. Don’t get hung up on “military preparedness” and exercises. If you were in the DoD today you would know how lame those two words sound.

Clinton and the Congress both were responsible for the draw-down of the military to such an extent that on 9/11, there were only TWO alertstations in the east coast and both of them were either guard or reserve. Prior to the end of the cold war, more than a dozen air force bases with active duty pilots would have scrambled to meet those planes and maybe even shoot them down within minutes.

This might be hard to believe but it may very well be there were a series of catastrophic failures preceding and during 9/11. This is how accidents happen. Who would have thought the people perpetrating the deed on 9/11 would have taken advantage of not only our weaknesses, but used the element of surprise.

If you read some of our own doctrine on war, you will see our enemy used the very same on us.

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By atheo, August 12, 2007 at 10:09 am Link to this comment

Ghali Hassan is an independent writer living in Australia:

After more than four years of Occupation and countless pretexts to justify the bloodbath, the Occupation, the Occupation is sold as a “war” against “al-Qaeda”, a US-created proxy. The use of al-Qaeda as a bogeyman is designed to fuel a campaign of anti-Muslim hatred and keep the public in a state of fear. More importantly, the use of al-Qaeda obfuscates the presence of a legitimate Iraqi National Resistance and justified the ongoing Occupation of Iraq.

Indeed, George Bush seemed to be obsessed by al-Qaeda and is using it with increased frequency. George Bush claim that the US is fighting al-Qaeda in Iraq is simply ludicrous. “We all know now that the US military is using the name of al-Qaeda to cover-up attacks against our National Resistance fighters and civilians who wish immediate or scheduled withdrawal of foreign troops from Iraq”, Hilmi Saed, an Iraqi journalist from Baghdad told Ali al-Fadhily of Inter Press Service (IPS) in Ba’aqubah.

Of course, there is no hard evidence of al-Qaeda’s presence in Iraq. The current extremism in Iraq is the result of US Occupation. It is encouraged because it provides the US and its collaborators with a pretext and as an alternative to the Iraqi Resistance. Even if al-Qaeda exists in Iraq, its deliberately exaggerated presence and role serve US aim to cover-up the deliberate destruction of Iraq…

Let’s not forget that the situation in Iraq today is the result of an unprovoked act of aggression based on pretexts proved to be fabricated lies. American leaders (supreme criminals) and their lackeys (Blair, Howard et al.) used and continue using the events of 9/11 in the US to provoke and justify wars of aggression against peoples and nations who had nothing whatsoever to do with the events of 9/11. They are committing war crimes and should be held accountable and put on trial for their crimes. The few soldiers who are on display in a show trial are merely a propaganda ploy to divert public attention away from the supreme criminals.

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By GodSend, August 12, 2007 at 10:00 am Link to this comment

DC:

“The wisdom of men is foolishness before God”

“My thoughts are higher than your thoughts” (God speaking)

The year of the pig and Ki and all the rest of the human ‘knowledge’ add up to nothing more than a hill of beans - and a small hill, at that! One might say “You’re full of beans” - and nothing but foul air is the result. wink

Keep your eyes on gold, RE and the Outer Oort Cloud - and you will SEE! prophecy come true smile And don’t wait for an ‘Official Investigation’ to deny what you can SEE! right in front of your eyes - IF they are open!

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By atheo, August 12, 2007 at 9:35 am Link to this comment

Tony,

Please flesh out your “war for oil” thesis. How exactly does it work? Really, not hypothetically.
Is it going well? Does it explain the US’ rising economic hegemony?

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 12, 2007 at 4:39 am Link to this comment

#94184 by omop on 8/12 at 3:22 am: “...when it comes to money EVERYONE is of the same religion….”

Seduced by the Force, ha ha!
Obiwan Kanobe

Quote: “Ki moves constantly as you breathe. You exhale and ki flows. You inhale and ki flows. You don’t suck up ki, it continues to flow into you from the universe. It is a circuit, not a balloon. We are conduits, not reservoirs .......By aligning the body ....and aligning the spirit, and focusing intent ......we exercise ki-power ....the font of ki is a vast reservoir .....we move in the universal, take strength from it, give back to it ... and are thus connected to all other things as well…”

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By omop, August 12, 2007 at 4:22 am Link to this comment

Godsend:

  While your perceptiveness is less than overwhelming and your quotations of Obi Wan Kan…are classic i tend to adhere to what Voltaire is quoted as saying:

        when it comes to money EVERYONE is of the same religion.

  via con dios.

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 12, 2007 at 12:43 am Link to this comment

#94158 by GodSend on 8/11 at 10:22 pm: “...It’s been on my website (among some other prophecies) for several YEARS! The PROPHECIES section and the sequence of 10 events is of more recent vintage….”

PS I don’t ‘predict’ anything - but go here http://www.astropro.com/homeJS11.html and click “futures” at the bottom right - and then open the menu box and click on June, July, etc 2007 and click “go”...... or http://www.astropro.com/forecast/predict/2007-all.html for the year - “...the American Century has passed into history. I think it’s even more than that: the European Epoch is drawing to a close…. The Jupiter-Uranus square and the Saturn-Neptune opposition were both in effect at the same time last month, and in January and February: look back, check out the major market swoons in both time frames, and you’ll get an idea what to expect this month. Think stock market drops, currency panics and the like. Be ready. For more on this, see my forecast for the year as a whole. And remember: this isn’t some 1929-style crash .....It’s a new kind of crash, a settling of the soufflé that takes years. Think “how the mighty hath fallen” ....Think political debris too….”


And, The Year Of The Pig - http://www.raymond-lo.com/ver2/aboutmasterlo/articles.asp - “...In general, the yin fire Pig year, with fire on top conquered by water below, is symbol of more disharmony and struggle before the birth of a new world order. There will be more international conflicts and uprisings and unrest but such events may bring positive changes leading to longer term benefit for the future of humanity and global well-being….”

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 12, 2007 at 12:41 am Link to this comment

#94158 by GodSend on 8/11 at 10:22 pm: “...I’m not sure what the point is of your last post. If you’re saying I wasn’t 1st to prophecy the coming Grand Depression, I beg to differ. It’s been on my website (among some other prophecies) for several YEARS! The PROPHECIES section and the sequence of 10 events is of more recent vintage….”

Oh, yibbity-yibbituh, that’s all….??? How boring, GS. But still, I do certainly agree about   “Double Deceivers” and “Can 50 million ‘Christians’ be deceived by ZioChristians (Satanist Enemies of Christ)?”, though. If its been building there for years, good work! But do try to do something more positive in future,eh?

By the way, don’t forget that this is the Chinese ‘year of the pig’, too - In the Year of the Pig (1968)
Back when the war against Vietnam was being waged by LBJ….... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064482  Also see http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/movie.html?v_id=24668

You can enlighten yourself here:-
The Art of Peace: “The Art of Peace begins with you. Work on yourself and your appointed task in the Art of Peace. Everyone has a spirit that can be refined, a body that can be trained in some manner, a suitable path to follow. You are here for no other purpose than to realize your inner divinity and manifest your innate enlightenment. Foster peace in your own life and then apply the Art to all that you encounter….” http://www-cse.ucsd.edu/users/paloma/Aikido/artpeace.html

On Human stupidity and ‘downshifting’: “Downshifting is actually one aspect of a much greater problem. Recall that when we downshift, we turn over the controls, so to speak, to our lower brains — we revert to older and more primitive response patterns and programs. In addition, we tend to lose our ability to think straight….... However, even when we are not actually downshifting, we are strongly influenced by our reptilian and old mammalian brain….” http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/tl12.shtml

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By GodSend, August 11, 2007 at 11:35 pm Link to this comment

PS to omop:

What did Obe One Kanobe tell Luke Skywalker, when he faced a seemingly invincible enemy?

“Trust in the Force within you” (The Force of Light, not the Force of Darkness).

It’s a matter of FAITH in what your ‘inner voice’ (conscience, intuition and common sense, if you like) tells you. “You shall KNOW the Truth and the Truth will make you free” Don’t wait for anyone to deny what you already KNOW to be true. It’s a waste of time as well as foolishness. wink

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By GodSend, August 11, 2007 at 11:22 pm Link to this comment

DC:

I’m not sure what the point is of your last post. If you’re saying I wasn’t 1st to prophecy the coming Grand Depression, I beg to differ. It’s been on my website (among some other prophecies) for several YEARS! The PROPHECIES section and the sequence of 10 events is of more recent vintage.

You can enlighten yourself here:

http://novalight.org

PS I don’t ‘predict’ anything! wink

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By GodSend, August 11, 2007 at 11:01 pm Link to this comment

omop:

You are the victim of years of brainwashing by the (Zionist) MSM, to the point where you’ve given up faith in your God-given intelligence and common sense. You (and others) can’t even make up your mind about something that is self-evident - unless some ‘authority’ feeds you what you are supposed to think. Whoever raised ‘Official Investigation’ to the pedestal of Truth?! It’s a sham and you are the victim! Not only that, you don’t even know it! You have become a lemming and unless some ‘authority’ gives you instructions, you are blind and dumb and empty-headed. The Warren Commission and the 9/11 ‘Investigation’ produced a pack of lies and deception! Just because the MSM reports it as ‘true’, doesn’t make it true. Next thing you know, you’ll be waiting for some ‘authority’ to tell you to go take a leak - or you’ll piss in your pants! wink

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 11, 2007 at 10:37 pm Link to this comment

#94099 by GodSend on 8/11 at 6:43 pm: “...remember when the truth comes out, where you heard it 1st!  ......the ‘Grand Depression’ is coming (actually already in progress)...”


Quote Global Research: Code Red: Subprime Chernobyl - “We expect that the mounting losses in CDOs and the continuing defaults in the housing industry will precipitate a “severe credit crunch” which will end in a stock market crash. A report which appeared yesterday in the UK Telegraph appears to agree with this analysis. Lombard Street Research predicted that: “Excess liquidity in the global system will be slashed. Banks Capital is about to be decimated, which will require calling in a swathe of loans. This is going to aggravate the US ‘hard landing”’ (“Banks set to call in swathe of loans” UK Telegraph 6-26-07)

Three of the main hoses which provide liquidity for the market, have either been cut off or severely damaged. These are “securatized” subprime CDOs, corporate mega-mergers and hedge fund leveraging. Without these instruments for expanding debt; liquidity will dry up and stocks will fall. The period of “easy credit” will end in disaster. We should now be able to see the straight line that connects the Fed’s low interest rates to the impending stock market meltdown. The problems began at the central bank.

Presidential candidate Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) summed it up best when he said: “From the Great Depression, to the stagflation of the seventies, to the burst of the dot.com bubble; every economic downturn suffered by the country over the last 80 years can be traced to Federal Reserve policy. The Fed has followed a consistent policy of flooding the economy with easy money, leading to a misallocation of resources and artificial “boom” followed by recession or depression when the Fed-created bubble bursts”....”  http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=6807

And quote the IMF: “In 2000, when the IMF first warned policymakers that imbalances in the global economy could derail global growth, the U.S. current account deficit stood at 4 percent of GDP. Today, that deficit has risen to more than 6 percent of GDP and is matched by large current account surpluses elsewhere, especially in China, Japan, and in oil-producing countries.

There are those who argue that these imbalances are sustainable and that the world economy will continue its impressive expansion (see “IMF Offers Compromise Path on Imbalances”). But many, including the IMF, do not think imbalances of this magnitude are sustainable in the long run and believe that action is needed to reduce them before they unravel in an abrupt and disorderly way.

Since 2004, the IMF’s International Monetary and Financial Committee (IMFC) has called for joint action to address the risks posed by the imbalances….....” http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2007/SurveyartA.htm

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By Tony Wicher, August 11, 2007 at 9:40 pm Link to this comment

Re #94073 by atheo on 8/11 at 4:33 pm
(364 comments total)

“Seen in this light the US participation in the middle east’s wars for Israel make more sense.”

atheo

As I see it, Israel only provides a convenient excuse for wars waged by imperialism for its own reasons. The the first Gulf War was not for Israel, it was to defend the oil of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, and to put Bush I’s asshole buddies, the Sabbah family, back on the so-called throne of Kuwait. Gulf War II was not for Israel, it was for Iraq oil. If the U.S. attacks Iran, it will be for Iran’s oil, not Israel. In all cases, however, Israel has been and will be provided as the convenient excuse: our plucky ally, Israel, “the only democracy in the Middle East”, has to be protected. As long as Israel is there, it will be used to justify all sorts of intervention.

The U.S. empire is going the way of the British sixty years ago. The question is whether it will end in a return to democracy  

“Expecting the US to “return to democracy” may be asking alot. A more feasable expectation would be a return to imperialism, but that would require shaking off the dual citizen neocons that dominate the media and both “mainstream” political parties.”


atheo,


The U.S. empire is going the way of the British sixty years ago. The question is whether it will end in a return to democracy or nuclear war. The next few years will tell, in my view. An important part of this question is whether Israel will remain intransigent and racist to the end or whether, assisted by a United States returned to democracy and a peaceful foreign policy, it will give up Zionism and assume a place among truly democratic countries.

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By Counselor1, August 11, 2007 at 9:38 pm Link to this comment

I have to agree with CitizenE. What in the world are the endless debate over Israel versus the Palestinians and speculations on “Whodunnit 9/11” doing here on the subject of the Hedges article on Iraq? There’s another very good starting point for the Israel - Paletine debate; the Lando article “Israel’s Primal Myth.”

I believe time may be very short for bloggers and posters to pressure the mainstream media into forcefully question Bush, Congress, and all presidential candidates as to what they would order, or approve, or forbid US military forces to do to defend Israel from retaliation, if Israel were to make a preemptive attack on Iran’s nuclear facilties. If this were to happen and Iran retaliated in part by stepped up infiltration of forces into eastern Iraq, even the plan to cut casualties in Iraq by “withdrawing” i.e., redeploying our forces out of cities to the north and south of eastern Iraq would become impossible. Given American jingoism of the, “These colors never run” type we would be trapped between Sunni and Shia irregular forces in asymetrical warfare with no forseeable end ever.

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By omop, August 11, 2007 at 8:01 pm Link to this comment

Godsend et al.

  Talk as the proverbial clown said ; is cheap.

  Has there ever been an offical investigation and report on who, how and what proof is there justifying conclusions as to who is guilty of the events of 9/11 and their prosecution and eventual judgments.

  Believing its the Mossad/CIA is as valid as believing its 13 Saudis that masterminded 9/11. Unless one has lived on another planet there has never been an “official” investigation leading to a reporting of the facts who and how 9/11 came to be to the American people.

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By atheo, August 11, 2007 at 7:52 pm Link to this comment

Everyone owes it to themselves and their fellow humans to read the thorough works on 9/11, Paul Thompson’s 9/11 Timeline and David Ray Griffin’s books. Additionally, Chriss Ketchum’s article available at counterpunch.org is worthwhile.

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By GodSend, August 11, 2007 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment

For anyone who cares to know: NORAD was sabotaged from within (instructed to ‘Stand Down’ by Cheney)!

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By atheo, August 11, 2007 at 7:44 pm Link to this comment

the 1sgt,

Am I to suppose that Clinton was responsible for the multiple excercises (that confused patriotic airmen) that occurred on 9/11? Ever hear about Able Danger? Did Clinton order the fighter jets to travel east over the Atlantic from Andrews AFB? Was it Clinton’s fault that those dispatched from Falmouth flew at 1/3 speed? Did Clinton force Rumsfeld to put himself in sole charge of decisions involving shoot downs as of 6/01? The questions are many.

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By GodSend, August 11, 2007 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

Hey, DC, I’m not telling anyone what to think! Think what you want to think but remember when the truth comes out, where you heard it 1st! wink Did I say, like the 1Sgt, I want you to do or think this or that? I simply present the truth. Take it or leave it. For example, if you don’t believe me that the ‘Grand Depression’ is coming (actually already in progress), you don’t have to believe me now - you can choose to believe me later (when you’re living in a cardboard box or in a tree) wink

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By GodSend, August 11, 2007 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment

What we have in the Israel/America relationship is a classic case of the little tail (Israel) wagging the (BIG) dog! American Imperialism is NOT the problem - the problem is Israeli Imperialism (“Greater Israel” PNIC ambitions) and, beyond that, establishing the NWO. That’s the only scenario in which the economic and societal destruction of America makes sense! (deliberately causing the ‘Grand Depression’ - Thank you, Mr. Greenspan & Mr. Bernanke - Zionist Depression ‘experts’!) Who, do you suppose, the ‘Israel Lobby’ reports to? Who, do you suppose, gives Bush his marching (make that invasion) orders? Mr. Olmert and American Zionist Billionaires give Mr. Bush his orders. This is not a new idea! Zionism has been around for many years. Obedience or death (JFK) are the ONLY options, but Mr. Bush, being a Satanist himself, complies only too willingly! wink

1Sgt, it’s not my saying it that makes it true (Zionists ‘did’ 9/11). It is the EVIDENCE (physical and circumstantial) and a compelling MOTIVE that makes it true! You can ignore me but if you ignore the EVIDENCE, that makes you either a Zionist shill (witting or unwitting) or stupid! That’s just the way the ‘Cookie_Crumbles’ - or the WTC towers collapse! wink

If you think this theory is ‘way out’, just keep your eyes on the Outer Oort Cloud and SEE! how the story (and some other things) will end! smile

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By the 1Sgt, August 11, 2007 at 7:33 pm Link to this comment

#94089 by atheo on 8/11 at 6:03 pm
(361 comments total)

the 1sgt,

The air defense stand down alone entails top level US complicity in 9/11, but once you analyse Cheney’s role at JINSA, and the Rumsfeld history of mass murder of Americans combined with Wormser, Fieth and Wolfowitz’ ties to Israel it falls together well as a top level US operation that relied heavily on Mossad for roles that would be dificult for Americans to perform. Further study reveals whose interests were served.

Many of these characters were criminally involved in Iran contra, a cynical operation that armed both sides of the US instigated Iran-Iraq war. The outcome of Iran contra was not entirely diferent from the current Iraq situation as far as Israeli interests go. A bonafide US elite motive for 9/11 is dificult to establish. Treason is the only conclusion.
====================================================
Atheo,

Let me just say this:

I was in the US Air Force from 1982 to 2006.

During the cold war, we had “alertbirds” all over this planet, day and night, with 5 minute response times. I once saw for the first and possibly only time ever, 4 nuclear loaded B52s launch from the alertpad on the island of Guam. It was 1 day before the rest of the world found out the Russians had shot down the KAL 007 jumbo jet. You should know the US launched nuclear-ready bombers on the day that Russian pilot shot down the 747. That’s how airtight our air defense network WAS.

I say WAS. When the cold war ended and Clinton 1/2 the milirtary, the ACTIVE DUTY alertforce stood down for the first time in US history. This duty was shifted to the GUARD and RESERVE. The GUARD and RESERVE work the way they should…as a GUARD and RESERVE. They do not have the same response time we did.

IT WAS NOT A SURPRISE TO ME that on 9/11 we had but a handfull of jets to scramble. And LATE at that. That’s the GUARD and RESERVE.

You don’t need to believe me. Look around you. The US military is literally 2 enlistments from falling apart. It’s BROKE. People like me punched in droves. We were the backbone of the military. We are the Reagan era volunteers. We ran the show.

Clinton BROKE it.

Our Air defense systems knew all too well what had happened. We had NO ONE ready to scramble in time and when we got them up it was too little and too late.

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 11, 2007 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment

#94089 by atheo on 8/11 at 6:03 pm: “...Further study reveals whose interests were served. .....Many of these characters were criminally involved in Iran contra, a cynical operation that armed both sides of the US instigated Iran-Iraq war. The outcome of Iran contra was not entirely diferent from the current Iraq situation as far as Israeli interests go. A bonafide US elite motive for 9/11 is dificult to establish. Treason is the only conclusion…”

Just to interject, if you don’t mind, atheo, the Iran-Contra Affair (also Irangate), was a political scandal occurring in 1987 as a result of earlier events during the Reagan administration in which members of the executive branch sold weapons to Iran (an avowed enemy???)  and illegally used the profits to continue funding rebels, the Contras, in Nicaragua…....

That also takes us back to Operation Eagle Claw, a United States military operation to rescue the 53 hostages from the U.S. Embassy in Tehran, Iran, in 1980. The operation was a failure, and had a severe impact on U.S. President Jimmy Carter….... Also see “Desert One” http://iran.theatlantic.com/homepage.html

Treason is using one’s country for one’s own selfish purposes, though. That is a fitting description of the current administration in the US White House and their policies of benefitting their ‘friends”. Regime-change is a worthwhile strategy concept to initiate at election time in that regard.

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By atheo, August 11, 2007 at 7:03 pm Link to this comment

the 1sgt,

The air defense stand down alone entails top level US complicity in 9/11, but once you analyse Cheney’s role at JINSA, and the Rumsfeld history of mass murder of Americans combined with Wormser, Fieth and Wolfowitz’ ties to Israel it falls together well as a top level US operation that relied heavily on Mossad for roles that would be dificult for Americans to perform. Further study reveals whose interests were served.

Many of these characters were criminally involved in Iran contra, a cynical operation that armed both sides of the US instigated Iran-Iraq war. The outcome of Iran contra was not entirely diferent from the current Iraq situation as far as Israeli interests go. A bonafide US elite motive for 9/11 is dificult to establish. Treason is the only conclusion.

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By the 1Sgt, August 11, 2007 at 6:41 pm Link to this comment

#94045 by GodSend on 8/11 at 2:45 pm
(286 comments total)

the 1Sgt:

Who are you to tell ANYONE what to do or think, huh!? Do you think everyone else here is a buck private? This is NOT a military post (hah, hah!)

Now, you are entitled to think whatever you want BUT you are NOT entitled to issue orders to others. If you want to issue orders, join the military (perhaps in Iraq) and work yourself up to a command position. Not sure that you’re Officer material, though! wink That usually requires you to be able to connect at least 3 dots. (WTC #1, #2 and #7). Good Luck!
====================================================
The discussion got too complicated for you. I am not the one issuing orders here. You’re not paying attention. My beliefs on 9/11 are not in complete agreement with you but they are close. But you don’t see that. This is just an aside, but you should reflect on this carefully: just because someone says something to you…hearing what is said does not mean agreement. I can and do respect your belief the Jews did the whole 9/11 job. But the fact you say it does not mean it is true, nor does it mean you are completely right, nor does it mean those who disagree with you are shills, jews, idiots, etc.

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 11, 2007 at 5:49 pm Link to this comment

#93988 by GodSend on 8/11 at 10:04 am: “...ISRAELI AND AMERICAN ZIONISTS ‘DID’ 9/11….”

You forgot to mention Wolfowitz, GS, and his pre-9/11 speech. Now, repeat after me: C-H-E-N-E-Y
See Operation ‘Pearl’ if you want more details? Try searching “Paul Wolfowitz Pearl Harbor”.......

Quote: “In a 2000 document, the group speculated that “some catastrophic and catalysing event, like a new Pearl Harbor” was needed to assure US global power. ......After the terrorist attacks of September 11, Wolfowitz urged the targeting of Saddam’s regime as the first stage of a new conflict. He was overruled when Bush decided to focus on Afghanistan….”  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/article432446.ece

Who are you to tell ANYONE what to do or think, huh!? Do you think everyone else here is a buck private? This is NOT a military post (hah, hah!)

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By atheo, August 11, 2007 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

Tony,

Consider that US imperialism has been in a death spiral since losing the Vietnam war. The US engaged in excessive war spending between the cold war, the space race, and liberal policies designed to convince Americans that the US was superior to the USSR. As a result, Nixon’s termination of the gold backed dollar sent the US economy into an inflationary disaster from which it never fully recovered.
The Reagan era was phony, based on Federal deficit spending for the chimerical star wars. This arms race was the true death knell of both empires, though the USSR crashed first due to it’s quagmire, Afghanistan. Gulf WarI was financed by other countries, the US acted only as a mercenary force.

Global financial elites are the true rulers of today’s international system. The US is a long since spent economic power.

Seen in this light the US participation in the middle east’s wars for Israel make more sense.

Expecting the US to “return to democracy” may be asking alot. A more feasable expectation would be a return to imperialism, but that would require shaking off the dual citizen neocons that dominate the media and both “mainstream” political parties.

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By Tony Wicher, August 11, 2007 at 4:57 pm Link to this comment

I think the current U.S./Israel military alliance is extremely bad for the Americans, Jews everywhere, and the whole world. Israel in its current form is nothing but a military garrison state of the American Empire. It cannot exist as a legitimate country or a democracy as long as it is a “Jewish state”, as long as it is conceived as “the expression of the national self-determination of the Jewish people”, as long as it excludes Palestinians. In its current form it is can only be a lackey of U.S. imperialism. Please understand: its lackey, its poodle, its client- NOT its master.

The fundamental problem is U.S. imperialism, not Israel. If this country turns around, ends its imperialist agenda and returns to democracy, Israel in its current form will not survive. Therefore Israel and its supporters in this country are the biggest supporters of imperialism.

However, I abhor the kind of Jew hatred I have seen expressed over and over by many on this forum to the bottom of my soul. If there were no anti-Semitism, Zionism would never have come into being. Anti-Semitism has been around since the beginning of Christianity, a religion which is responsible for killing more human beings than all the other religions put together. This hell spawn is alive, well, and getting worse every day, as anyone who reads this thread can see.

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By GodSend, August 11, 2007 at 3:45 pm Link to this comment

the 1Sgt:

Who are you to tell ANYONE what to do or think, huh!? Do you think everyone else here is a buck private? This is NOT a military post (hah, hah!)

Now, you are entitled to think whatever you want BUT you are NOT entitled to issue orders to others. If you want to issue orders, join the military (perhaps in Iraq) and work yourself up to a command position. Not sure that you’re Officer material, though! wink That usually requires you to be able to connect at least 3 dots. (WTC #1, #2 and #7). Good Luck!

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By the 1Sgt, August 11, 2007 at 11:39 am Link to this comment

#93981 by GodSend on 8/11 at 9:43 am
(285 comments total)

WE KNOW WHO DID 9/11 - and the ‘WE’ is growing steadily, day by day, until ALL AMERICANS will know that Israeli and American Zionists ‘did it’. You got that?! What are you - some kind of Zionist shill? - or are you just short on brain cells?

Anyone who advocates ‘ignorance is bliss’ about who did 9/11 is a Zionist shill - witting or unwitting. Now that sounds better than being an idiot, doesn’t it?!
====================================================
Looks like there is no point on continuing this discussion. The very same thing I cautioned you not to do—you did, to the letter. Disagreement with YOUR version of what you think happened or didn’t happen does not make one a shill, idiot, or anything else. it’s just a disagreement.

Maybe this is confusing to you.

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By atheo, August 11, 2007 at 11:30 am Link to this comment

When asked by Barbara Walters on the night of September 11, 2001 if the 9/11 attacks were carried out by forces within the U.S., 2008 presidential candidate and then senate intelligence committee member John Edwards becomes evasive and refuses to answer the question, after having spoken to CIA director George Tenet earlier that da

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8866440606326 94627&hl=en

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By GodSend, August 11, 2007 at 11:04 am Link to this comment

DC:

Repeat after me:

ISRAELI AND AMERICAN ZIONISTS ‘DID’ 9/11!

Are some of them Jews? You betcha! Do some of them claim to be Jews but “They are not Jews but worship in the Synagogue of Satan.”? You betcha! Are some of them dual Israel/American citizens? You betcha! Was Guiliani involved? You betcha! Was Silverstein involved? You betcha! Was the Mossad involved? You betcha! Was the Pentagon involved? You betcha! Was Bush involved? You betcha! Was the MSM involved? You betcha! (the cover-up afterwards). Were the FBI and CIA involved? You betcha! Was the ‘Israel Lobby’ involved? You betcha! Were 5 dancing Mossad agents involved? You betcha! Were airport security firms, owned by Israelis, involved? You betcha!

Does the Rogue State of Israel have a MOTIVE for ‘pulling off’ 9/11? You betcha! Do the perpetrators have a compelling reason to resist exposure of 9/11 truth, NO MATTER WHAT, even if it means attacking Iran, ‘pulling off’ 9/11-II or starting WWIII? YOU BETCHA!

SEE! Operation ‘Pearl’ if you want more details.

Who was not involved? 19 crazed Saudi Arabs! wink

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By GodSend, August 11, 2007 at 10:43 am Link to this comment

1Sgt:

I think you should stop believing that anyone who does not agree with your POV is incorrect, confused or even a shill. I don’t live in a “bogeyman” world like it appears you do. There’s one thing I have always noticed with religious extremists, they never know when their fantasies become their reality and so meshed that they continue with the same thinking in complete contradiction to the facts.

My statement stands and I believe it is quite apropos…we have only the tip of the iceberg into what has happened behind the scenes over the last two decades to bring us to where we are. I think when the historians of the future unravel this history people will be very shocked at what transpired, maybe almost as shocked as the Germans were when they realized they were, all along, on the side that was always bound to lose.

I’m not sure which statement you’re talking about that you wish will stand, but if it’s that statement that we’re ‘confused’ about who ‘did’ 9/11 and that we’ll stay ‘confused’ until we’re all dead (might be sooner than you think), your statement will fall as sure as the WTC towers fell - and probably while you’re still alive to SEE! it fall. wink

This has nothing to do with religion - it has to do with the laws of Physics, the laws of not being able to crash into the WTC towers and still walk around afterwards, the laws of logic and the laws of the land that have been violated by a bunch of Zionist traitors and liars like Bush and his cabal! WE KNOW WHO DID 9/11 - and the ‘WE’ is growing steadily, day by day, until ALL AMERICANS will know that Israeli and American Zionists ‘did it’. You got that?! What are you - some kind of Zionist shill? - or are you just short on brain cells?

Anyone who advocates ‘ignorance is bliss’ about who did 9/11 is a Zionist shill - witting or unwitting. Now that sounds better than being an idiot, doesn’t it?! wink

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By CitizenE, August 11, 2007 at 10:02 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I have returned to these comments several times, each time thinking what does Israel and 9/11 conspiracy commentary have to do with Mr. Hedges’ essay. What is this thread all about?

This essay is a jeremaid inre our invasion of Iraq, and it is particularly troubling for me because Mr. Hedges’ book, War is a Force that Gives us Meaning, was so prescient in what was going to be the upshot of going to war inevitably entails: demonization of the enemy, plague of nationalism, martyring victims to promote the cause, the connection b/tw porn and torture, the way thugs inevitably flame ethnic differences that had been heretofore tolerated in order to ignite and intensify the conflict; the loss of humanity.
I take Mr. Hedges’ view seriously, and it would do for us to note in the future how accurately his present predictions play out, especially in hindsight, when after some Democratic adminstration brings our troops home, and all hell breaks loose, the right wing places the blame upon them.

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By the 1Sgt, August 11, 2007 at 6:05 am Link to this comment

#93842 by GodSend on 8/10 at 7:26 pm
(283 comments total)

Well, 1Sgt, you’re thinking like the Zionists want Americans to be: Confused!
======================================================
I think you should stop believing that anyone who does not agree with your POV is incorrect, confused or even a shill. I don’t live in a “bogeyman” world like it appears you do. There’s one thing I have always noticed with religious extremists, they never know when their fantasies become their reality and so meshed that they continue with the same thinking in complete contradiction to the facts.

My statement stands and I believe it is quite apropos…we have only the tip of the iceberg into what has happened behind the scenes over the last two decades to bring us to where we are. I think when the historians of the future unravel this history people will be very shocked at what transpired, maybe almost as shocked as the Germans were when they realized they were, all along, on the side that was always bound to lose.

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 11, 2007 at 1:02 am Link to this comment

#93890 by GodSend on 8/10 at 11:39 pm: “...anyone who dares to suggest that anyone other than crazed Saudis ‘did’ 9/11 - when it’s sooooo obvious that those nasty Zionists ‘did’ 9/11, instead! .......comes on a deceptive scale of 1 to infinity. If you’re not careful, before long she’ll have you believing that Osama did it, while he was on an opium trip in the caves of Afghanistan….”

Ha ha, but Bin Laden was never in Afgahanistan never mind on dope, GS. The White House staff all might have been though - and seriously fumbled their chance. Then again, that was a Godsend…... after all, neither the Jews nor the Saudis were really responsible for 9/11. Politics is local - jobs for Americans!

You’re not seriously on about the Protocols of Zion again, I hope - oops, there, I’ve done it, they’ll be onto us again in no time!!!

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By GodSend, August 11, 2007 at 12:49 am Link to this comment

THE MANGEMEISTER: You have good reason to be scared - the Windbag just flew out of the cuckoo’s nest and his filthy droppings are landing everywhere. We’ll have to get Jack Nicholson to knock the wind out of him with a pillow and put him out of his misery! wink

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By GodSend, August 11, 2007 at 12:39 am Link to this comment

DC: Offensive towards cyrena? - you must be kidding! It’s just a little kibbitzing with granny, that’s all. She has this grandmotherly air of evaluating everyone’s comments (Yes, Dear, you are so right) and then puts a (linguistic) Half Nelson on anyone who dares to suggest that anyone other than crazed Saudis ‘did’ 9/11 - when it’s sooooo obvious that those nasty Zionists ‘did’ 9/11, instead! wink Deception, DC, comes on a deceptive scale of 1 to infinity. If you’re not careful, before long she’ll have you believing that Osama did it, while he was on an opium trip in the caves of Afghanistan. wink Yes, that’s it! - Osama flew into WTC#7 on his flying carpet and THAT’S what made it magically collapse in its footprint - because it sure wasn’t those little fires, Rudy! smile

I wonder if she’s still rolling on the floor with her hilarious friends - between bites of a salt-free bagel? wink

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 10, 2007 at 11:04 pm Link to this comment

#93842 by GodSend on 8/10 at 7:26 pm: “...And Yeah! - Zionist Israel is bad news for America! It’s also bad news for the ME, countries like Germany and, to be frank, the entire rest of the world! It’s ESPECIALLY bad news for Jews…”

Yes, there are other countries in the world which are subsumed by their slavish obeisance to Zionism. They are usually the English-speaking Anglo-Saxon countries like Britain and Australia. Must be something in the ex-imperialist/colonialist mindset which leaves a blank for Jewish expansionism to occupy. The Australians in particular are as bad as the Americans in their naivety.

Strange about Saudi Arabia, though. When their king Abdullah visited Singapore, he was quoted as saying that he enjoyed the free and relaxed feeling about the island city state. Considering his own country’s repressive Wahabi religious regime, that was really saying something. That would have also had repercussions in neighboring Muslim Malaysia and Indonesia, both of which also have their religious police.

If there is one thing the Jews and the Saudi Arabs have in common, it is their own religion-driven unhappiness. One lot live in a desert and depend on diminishing oil resources for their recent wealth - they fear foreigners. The others live in a semi-desert and have engendered the hatred and mistrust of all their neighbours as well as the foreigners they have misused - in the end, nothing will save them.

By the way, try to be a little less offensive towards cyrena, OK….....

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By THE MANGEMEISTER, August 10, 2007 at 9:25 pm Link to this comment

GodSend great posts! Passing The Wind’s comments scare the crap out of me.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 10, 2007 at 9:09 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

cyrena on 8/10 at 7:07 am
(743 comments total)

#93667 by GodSend on 8/10 at 6:44 am
• cyrena is one of those subtle Zionist shills who sounds ‘reasonable’ (even motherly - like a ‘Jewish’ mother) on the surface but not far below that surface lies Deception and an effort to discredit ANYONE who is a threat to the Zionist agenda. She is an extension of the MSM into cyberspace.
Godsend,
This is absolutely priceless!!! It’s rare that I can start my morning with such excellent comedy. Matter of fact, this was so good, that I shared it with everyone who actually KNOWS me. I can’t wait to hear the responses from the natural-born comedians among them. No doubt it will make their days as well.

Thanks again.

Respectfully,
Your Neighborhood Jewish Grandmother Zionist Shill (MSM certified)

Cyrena:

Welcome to MY world.  I think you are FINALLY getting an idea of the kind of irrational venom I get from DogShit all the time.  You don’t conform to HIS weird, Mel-Gibson-like superstition, so now YOU must be a “Zionist” too.

Does this give you ANY idea why if you roll with pigs, you’ll be assumed to be pork as well?

Of course, DogShit, who claims to be God’s Prophet (he knows God’s will, after all) will call down fire and brimstone on me and ASSURE me that I am condemned to eternity in Hell, solely for the heresy of disagreeing with his lunatic ravings.

Which DogCrap, Toungeupass and Sgt. Schultz feed right into…

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By GodSend, August 10, 2007 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment

Well, 1Sgt, you’re thinking like the Zionists want Americans to be: Confused! .....BUT,  WE KNOW WHO DID IT and there is no reason to be confused! Like I said, the truth is self-evident - you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to understand it! Just a modicum of gray matter and being able to connect just a few dots is sufficient. That’s why panic sets in whenever someone opens their mouth to question the ‘Official’ 9/11 fairy tale wink

And Yeah! - Zionist Israel is bad news for America! It’s also bad news for the ME, countries like Germany and, to be frank, the entire rest of the world! It’s ESPECIALLY bad news for Jews!

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By the 1Sgt, August 10, 2007 at 8:01 pm Link to this comment

Godsend,

These days, I don’t think anyone knows what to believe. But we do know this: the relationship the United States has with Israel is BAAAAAD for our health as Americans. These people are a liability to us anymore. We should have seen this a long, long time ago.

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By GodSend, August 10, 2007 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment

the 1Sgt:

You may find this hard to believe but the Saudis were not ‘helped’ by the Mossad or anyone else. The Saudis and other Arabs were merely a ‘front’ during the entire operation, which was planned and executed by the Mossad, aided and abetted by Zionists (Israelis, Americans and dual citizens) in several strategic locations - airport security, the Pentagon, NORAD, the MIC, the MSM, Guiliani and Silverstein, Zakheim, the FBI (Pentagon videocam seizures), the CIA (planning), the NSA, etc. Arabs were made the scapegoats so that the Zionist-sponsored ‘Clash of Civilizations’ could get a head-start. Afghanistan was the 1st target. Iraq the 2nd. Iran, Syria or Lebanon will be the 3rd. 9/11 was the kick-off to the ‘Greater Israel’ PNIC plan. The ‘War on Terror’ is part of that plan and a Zionist innovation. The seeds were planted within the MIC executive suites as far back as 1998, if not earlier.

Can you imagine the consequences of this gigantic and devilish plot unraveling? Of course, maybe those Halliburton gulags are being built for those Zionist traitors to America! A Military coup will be needed to arrest all the Zionists simultaneously - the Bush cabal, military personnel (MIC), government personnel (mostly security agencies), MSM personnel and politicians. Also some odd-and-ends sayanim and katsas.

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By the 1Sgt, August 10, 2007 at 4:53 pm Link to this comment

As INEPT as I know Saudis to be, I ALWAYS wondered HOW in the hell they were able to pull 9/11 off. It only makes sense that they were helped by a false flag operation. Remember the dancing israelis caught on video and reported by Fox Mews?

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