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Israel’s Primal Myth: A Barrier to Peace

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Posted on Jul 21, 2007
bombed out
AP Photo/Mohammed Zaatari

Palestinian refugees look over the rubble of a bombed-out house, following an Israeli strike, at the Ein el-Hilweh Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon last August.

By Barry Lando

Forget about Hamas, the wall, Gaza and the occupied territories. There can be no peace in the Middle East until Israel and the Palestinians deal with one key issue: the Palestinian demand that Israel recognize their right of return.  That demand is based on the Arab charge that the Zionist state created the refugee problem in the war of 1948-49 by a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing. It’s an accusation that Israel’s leaders have consistently rejected. Jewish soldiers could never commit such crimes. It was the Arabs themselves, they say, who created the refugees. 

It has become increasingly evident, however, that the Israeli position is, in fact, a self-serving myth created when the Jewish state was born, perpetuated ever since by the country’s leaders and still blandly accepted by Washington.

The myth goes like this: In 1948, when the Arabs attacked the newly declared state of Israel, the Arab population fled by the hundreds of thousands.  They left not because of attacks by Israeli soldiers but because of the calls of their own Arab leaders, who guaranteed them a speedy return once the Arab armies had triumphed over the upstart Jewish state. Indeed, they fled despite the attempts of many Israelis—as was movingly portrayed in the film “Exodus”—to convince their Palestinian neighbors to remain. Why should such treacherous people have the right to return? Not to mention the fact that their return by the millions would spell the end of Israel as a Jewish state.

This is the story that Israel’s leaders and Jews throughout the Diaspora have clung to for more than half a century. But since the early 1990s a new generation of Israeli historians and investigative journalists—drawing on formerly classified documents as well as recollections of Israeli leaders of the War of Independence—has demolished the traditional Israeli position.

According to their research, the Palestinians fled their villages not in response to a call from Arab leaders but because of a concerted campaign of terror—including massacres and rape—perpetrated by military units of the newly declared Israeli state.

As Gideon Levy, a leading columnist from Haaretz, put it, “1948 was Israel’s finest hour, the culmination of a mad dream: the formation of an independent Jewish state.” At the same time he declared, “it was our darkest hour, in which we committed war crimes on a large scale. And did so in all good conscience.”

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The key point, often overlooked, is that in 1948,
Resolution 181 of the U.N. General Assembly didn’t just call for the creation of the single state of Israel from the British mandate of Palestine. In fact, it recommended dividing Palestine into two separate countries—one predominately Arab, the other Jewish—to be joined by an economic union. 

According to Sylvain Cypel, a leading correspondent for Le Monde, the full version of that U.N. resolution was never published in its entirety in Hebrew. The reason for that may be simple. From the beginning Israel’s future leaders were determined that the Jewish state, carved out of the British mandate, would be just a first step toward the eventual takeover of all the land of Palestine. As David Ben Gurion, who would become Israel’s first prime minister, confided to Labor Party members in 1941, “As soon as we gain power, once our state is established we’ll annul [the partition] and will spread out over all the territory of Israel.”

There was, however, an obvious demographic hitch to such ambitions. If the Palestinians were allowed to remain on their lands, their numbers would overwhelm the Jews—the Jewish state would be stillborn. In fact, according to
Benny Morris, one of the first of the new Israeli historians, European Zionist leaders had secretly discussed plans for transferring the Arab population out of Palestine as far back as 1937 in Zurich. They had few illusions that the relocation of up to 500,000 Arabs could be peacefully achieved. “It is hard to imagine a transfer without recourse to force,” Ben Gurion later wrote in 1941.

Such blunt talk was for internal use only. Outwardly, a different myth was already being prepared. “They lied, oh, how they lied,” thundered Gideon Levy. “The Arabs were always the bad guys, and we were the just, absolute, and sole victims. That’s what we’ve been told.”

Indeed, after thoroughly researching Israeli archives, Morris found that not only was there no evidence that Arab leaders had called upon their people to flee in 1948-49, but that records revealed exactly the opposite: “In no case did a Palestinian population abandon its homes before an attack.” To the contrary, Israeli intelligence services had actually intercepted calls from Arab leaders asking Palestinians either to remain in their homes or to return if they had already fled.

Morris and other Israeli historians concluded that the Palestinians’ flight was—as the Arabs had long claimed—the result of a purposeful policy of Israeli forces, whose communiqués at the time spoke openly of “cleansing” or “purifying” the conquered Arab villages.

According to Gen. Yigal Allon, in May 12, 1948, as his men approached each Arab town, they tossed in tracts with the message in Arabic, “if you don’t flee immediately, you will all be slaughtered, your daughters will be raped.” Those were not empty threats. 

“The reality,” writes Cypel in his newly published book,
“Walled,” “is that the expulsion was desired, coordinated, and accomplished by systematic atrocities against, and killing of, civilians, with town properties razed on order (at first on a very unequal fashion from one area to another), and that nearly half of this expulsion was carried out even before the Arab states attacked Israel.”

Another Israeli historian, Gail Ehrlich, concluded that a dozen massacres of more than 50 victims each were committed during Israel’s War of Independence, apart from about 100 killings of smaller groups and individuals.  He described a “conspiracy of silence” surrounding those massacres, which were carried out by elite Israel troops and continued even after the creation of the state of Israel. 

“When the first expulsions were undertaken no local officer received an order to stop them,” says Cypel, who lived for 12 years in Israel and served in the army. “Everyone understood from then on what direction was to be followed, without any need for an explicit formulation.”

In 2004, Benny Morris wrote a new study concluding there had been far more “ethnic cleansing”—far more massacres and rapes than he had originally thought. The Israeli fighters had been given explicit orders “to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves.” In October 1948 in the Galilee, he said, “There was an unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion. This can’t be chance. It’s a pattern.” The orders for expulsion followed the visit of Prime Minister Ben Gurion to the headquarters of the units that undertook them.

According to Cypel, “Of the 875,000 Palestinians who found themselves in the expanded State of Israel at the end of the war, only 150,000 were left after the new expulsions following the cease fire with the Arab states. The others, that is 82 percent, were driven out, half of them by military force, the rest under the combined influence of threat, terror, and a deep feeling of abandonment and powerlessness.”

What sealed their fate was the decision of the Israeli government in 1948 to refuse to allow any Palestinians who had fled—no matter what their motive—to return to their homeland. At the same time, Israeli residence was offered to anyone in the world who could claim Jewish ancestry.

As if to destroy evidence of the Palestinian past, over the following years some 400 out of 500 Palestinian towns and ancestral villages were burned, dynamited and bulldozed, obliterated from the maps of Israel.

When the war in Kosovo broke out in 1999 an Israeli editorialist wryly wrote, “How lucky we were then there was no CNN in 1948 or the whole world would have been able to see in Palestine the images we are seeing today.”

The particular irony in all this is that it has traditionally been Israel demanding that other countries acknowledge their own past moral failings, specifically with regard to the Holocaust. There is, of course, no comparison between the horrors of the Shoah and the campaign of ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians. But that fact, say some Israeli writers, should not absolve the Zionist state from recognizing the less than glorious episodes in its own history.

“Maybe we had to act as we did,” says Gideon Levy. “Maybe there was no other way possible. But why lie all these years?  Why not say, ‘One right came up against another, one victim came up against another, and the result was inevitable. We had to drive them out. It was them or us.’ That would be much more persuasive than the lie. It would also lead to peace.”

Most Israelis are still unwilling to take that step. They cite the fear of being overwhelmed and annihilated by a flood of returning Palestinians. But most Palestinian and Arab leaders are under no illusions that Israel would ever open its doors to the 4 million refugees. What they ask from Israel is formal recognition of what actually happened in 1948-49—a recognition that would entail the Zionist state’s assuming some responsibility for finally resolving the refugee problem. The great majority of Palestinians, they acknowledge, would never return.

That was the kind of deal that Yasser Arafat sought in the ill-fated Camp David talks of 2000: a face-saving accord that would have allowed him to claim victory, even though he and everyone knew there would not be a real right of return. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, however, refused to cede any ground on the issue. The claim that Israel’s offer at the time was more than generous, says Cypel, was false—another case of Israeli myth making.

In fact, negotiations in following years between leading Israelis and Palestinians made it clear that a compromise on the issue was very much within reach.

Six months after the failed Camp David talks, for instance, at Taba, Barak’s former minister of justice, Yossi Beilin, submitted a draft proposal acknowledging that “the nascent state of Israel was drawn into the War of 1948-1949, which had its victims and led to suffering on both sides, including the displacement and expropriation of the civilian Palestinian population. ... Since that time the refugees have for decades lived without dignity, citizenship, or property.” Israel, he promised, “will be an active partner in closing this terrible chapter.” The proposal offered the refugees several options: return to Israel within limits to be agreed on, repatriation to a future Palestinian state,  or relocation in their current host countries or elsewhere, much of this to be underwritten by additional international financing.

“For the first time,” says Cypel, “Israel was admitting the illegitimacy of its demand that the Palestinians forget their own history.”

Speaking to his fellow Israelis, Beilin attempted to make them understand that “it is impossible to ask the Palestinians to give up the right of return. If we ask them, there will be no final record.” Ehud Barak, however, broke off the Taba talks.

Similar draft negotiations two years later in Geneva, which resulted in the Palestinians agreeing to limits on their right of return and Israel undertaking to compensate the heirs of Palestinians it had expelled, ended after the talks were denounced by Ariel Sharon.

Four years later, Israeli leaders and the great majority of its people still refuse to accept responsibility for the refugee problem. It boils down, says Cypel, to a question of appearances.

Despite Israel’s great accomplishments, he says, there is still widespread apprehension among Israelis about any questioning of the country’s self-image of moral superiority and perpetual victim of aggression. “The revelation of the slightest flaw, the revelation of the least stain, whether in the past or ... the present, seems to evoke such fear that it challenges not only the existence but the very legitimacy of this society in the eyes of a large majority of its own members.”

While Israel’s difficulty in dealing with its own past may thus make some sense, much more remarkable is how successful the Israelis have been in convincing American leaders to play along with their founding myth.


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By Frank Goodman, Sr., July 27, 2007 at 3:57 pm Link to this comment

Re: #90033 by Robert on 7/27 at 7:15 am

Thank you Robert for this summary of the history of the rape of Palestine by British, United Nations, Zionists, and the rest the unsavory dupes who participated. That includes President Truman, who caved in to American political pressure to recognize Israel before the Republican candidate, Thomas Dewey, could. Thus, Truman was assured a win in the election, Zionism was established in Palestine, Palestine was destroyed, and history had a chance to teach the lesson again.

I find it amazing that God punishes the Jews over and over again and they still don’t get it. I like the Biblical story that God promised to Abraham a land somewhere west of Mesopotamia that was flowing with milk and honey, but that had no people causing that to happen. Abraham did not even know where it was—only that it was somewhere to the west. At first he got lost, but finally wound up in what is now called Palestine (Israel). He found people there with whom he picked a fight to claim what God promised to him. He did not do very well at first.  Go to the Bible for the rest of the story and to the Internet for some thoughtful and some not-so-thoughtful analysis.

The rest is history and Jews continue the punishment that started shortly after Abraham announced that the land was his. The famines in the land, flowing with milk and honey, as it were forced the newcomers to plead with Egypt for food. Of course the leaders of Egypt found the hungry people that God sent to them to be ready labor to build pyramids and other nice things. It is interesting that God is using the Palestinian Arabs to punish the Jews for violating the covenant. The more they are punished, the more they violate the covenant. They not only could not keep the covenant, but lost the box in which it was stored.

Then there was Moses who was given fifteen commandments by God. Moses dropped one of the plaques and broke the first five commandments on the spot. The other ten are broken daily throughout Israel and wherever Jews assemble in groups of three or more. I am for the Jews, they don’t have to take that crap from anyone. After all they are the ‘Chosen People’. God should have known better than to expect them to live up to the fifteen commandments. He gave them the big head by singling them out for special treatment.

I am glad that God changed his mind and awarded the title of chosen people to all mankind for subsequent covenants. Most of us keep the commandments even though we elect presidents who break them.

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By Robert, July 27, 2007 at 1:10 pm Link to this comment

Israeli Co Is New Pentagon
Computer Security Supplier!

From Jeff Blankfort

7-27-7

“The Israeli company for computer security Check Points has been appointed as the official supplier to the American Ministry of Defense. In particular, the company will supply American Federal agencies with a protection system for data stored on laptop computers. (Guysen.International.News) July 17, 2007

Whatever one may think of the old Protocols of the the Learned Elders of Zion, the protocols of the current elders seem to be working very efficiently. Let’s see. They control Congress and the White House, security at all our major airports, through the Israeli company Amdocs they manage the billing of 90% of US private telephone companies, and now they have a direct line into the computers of every federal agency because one may be assured that if they have a system, they know how to bypass it. Of course, by calling it “Check Points,” that is equivalent to the Nazis of an earlier generation calling their school yards, “Concentration Camps.” Different era, same mentality.-JB”

http://www.rense.com/general77/isco.htm

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By Robert, July 27, 2007 at 8:21 am Link to this comment

(Part V)
Planning the Expulsion of the Palestinians

“Ben-Gurion led the Zionist movement from the mid-1920s until well into the 1960s. He played a central role and had supreme authority planning the establishment of a Jewish state serving as its “architect” with full control over all security and defense issues in the Jewish community. His goal was Jewish sovereignty over as much of ancient Palestine as possible achieved the only way he thought possible-by forceable removable of Palestinians from their land so Jews could be resettled in it.

To do it, he and other Zionist leaders needed a systematic plan to “cleanse” the land for Jewish habitation only. It began with a detailed registry or inventory of Arab villages the Jewish National Fund (JNF) was assigned to compile. The JNF was founded in 1901 as the main Zionist tool for the colonization of Palestine. Its purpose was to buy land used to settle Jewish immigrants that by the end of the British Mandate in 1948 amounted to 5.8% of Palestine or a small fraction of what Zionists wanted for a Jewish state. Early on, Ben-Gurion and others knew a more aggressive approach was needed for their colonization plan to succeed.

It began with the JNF Arab village inventory that was a blueprint completed by the late 1930s that included the topographic location of each village with detailed information including husbandry, cultivated land, number of trees, quality of fruit, average amount of land per family, number of cars, shop owners, Palestinian clans and their political affiliation, descriptions of village mosques and names of their imams, civil servants and more. The final inventory update was finished in 1947 with lists of “wanted” persons in each village targeted in 1948 for search-and-arrest operations with those seized summarily shot on the spot in cold blood.

The idea was simple - kill the leaders and anyone thought to be a threat the British hadn’t already eliminated quelling the 1936-39 uprising. It created a power vacuum neutralizing any effective opposition to Zionists’ plans. The only remaining obstacle thereafter was the British presence Ben-Gurion knew was on the way out by 1946 before it finally ended in May, 1948.

Partition, Ethnic Cleansing, War, and Establishment of the State of Israel

Ethnic cleansing began in early December, 1947 when Palestinians comprised two-thirds of the population and Jews, mostly from war-torn Europe, the other third. The British tried dealing with two distinct ethnic entities choosing partition as the way to do it. By 1937, this solution became the centerpiece of Zionist policy, but it proved too hard for the Brits to resolve and be able to satisfy both sides. It instead handed the problem to the newly formed UN to deal with before their Mandate ended.

It put the Palestinians’ fate in the hands of a Special Committee for Palestine whose members had no prior experience solving conflicts and knew little Palestinian history. It was a recipe for disaster as events unfolded. UNSCOP opted for partition favoring the Jews as compensation for the Nazi holocaust that became General Assembly Resolution 181 on November 29, 1947 giving them a state encompassing 56% the country with one-third of the population while making Jerusalem an international city. Palestinians were justifiably outraged. They were excluded from the decision-making process concluded against their will and at their expense.

From that moment on, the die was cast leading to partition, ethnic cleansing, the first Arab-Israeli war, the others to follow, and decades of disregard for their rights to this day creating their desperate state with no resolution in prospect. Resolution 181 was even worse than an unfair 56-44% division of territory as it allotted the most fertile land and almost all urban and rural territory in Palestine to the new Jewish state plus 400 of the over 1000 Palestinian villages their residents lost with no right of appeal.”

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By Robert, July 27, 2007 at 8:15 am Link to this comment

(Part IV)

Zionism’s Ideological Roots

“Pappe traces the roots of Zionism to the late 1880s in Central and Eastern Europe “as a national revival movement, prompted by the growing pressure on Jews in those regions to assimilate totally or risk continuing persecution.” Founded by Theodor Herzl, the movement became international in scope supporting a Jewish homeland in the Land of Israel, or Eretz Israel, even though early on many in the movement were ambivalent about its location. That changed following Herzl’s death in 1904 when it was decided the goal was to colonize Palestine because of its biblical connection that happened to be land occupied inappropriately by “strangers” meaning anyone not Jewish having “no right” to be there.

So as justification, the myth was created of “a land without people for a people without a land” even though this “empty land” had a flourishing Palestinian Arab population including a small number of Jews. Zionist leaders wanted a complete dispossession of indigenous Arabs to reestablish the ancient land of Eretz Israel as a Jewish state for Jews alone and got help doing it from the British after Palestine became part of its empire post-WW I. With duplicity, the Brits crafted the 1917 Balfour Declaration supporting the notion of a Jewish homeland in Palestine while simultaneously promising indigenous Arabs their rights would be protected and land would be freed from foreign rule.

Palestinian Arabs saw through the scheme wanting no part of it. It was their land, and they weren’t about to give it up without a struggle. They strongly opposed further Jewish immigration but to no avail, as their wishes conflicted with British plans for the territory. It set off decades of conflict leading to the establishment of the Jewish state in 1948 with British help under their Mandate and neighboring Arab state indifference doing little to prevent it. Palestinians lost their homeland, their struggle for justice goes on unresolved, and these beleaguered people are virtually isolated from the West and their Arab neighbors preferring alliance with Israel for their own interests that exclude helping Palestinian people get theirs served including a viable independent state free from Israeli occupation.

Pappe traces the early post-Balfour history when Palestinians comprised 80 - 90% of the population. Even then they fared poorly under British Mandate rule giving Zionist settlers preferential treatment. It led to uprisings in 1929 and 1936, the later one lasting three years before being brutally suppressed. In its wake, Britain expelled Palestinian leaders making their people vulnerable to Jewish forces post-WW II that led to their defeat and subjugation. The sympathetic British Mandate made it possible by helping Jewish settlers transform their 1920 paramilitary organization into the Hagana, a name meaning defense. It then became the military arm of the Jewish Agency or Zionist governing body now called the Israel Defense Forces or IDF.”

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By Robert, July 27, 2007 at 8:10 am Link to this comment

(Part III- continued from previous comment)

“Once begun, the whole ugly business took six months to complete. It expelled about 800,000 people, killed many others, and destroyed 531 villages and 11 urban neighborhoods in cities like Tel-Aviv, Haifa and Jerusalem. The action was a clear case of ethnic cleansing that international law today calls a crime against humanity for which convicted Nazis at Nuremberg were hanged. So far Israelis have always remained immune from international law even though names of guilty leaders and those charged with implementing their orders are known as well as the crimes they committed.

They included cold-blooded mass-murder; destruction of homes, villages and crops; rapes; other atrocities; and massacres of defenseless people given no quarter including women and children. The crimes were suppressed and expunged from official accounts as Israeli historiography cooked up the myth that Palestinians left voluntarily fearing harm from invading Arab armies. It was a lie covering up Israeli crimes Palestinians call the Nakba - the catastrophe or disaster that’s still a cold, harsh festering unresolved injustice.

Even with British armed presence still in charge of law and order before its Mandate ended, Jewish forces completed the expulsion of about 250,000 Palestinians the Brits did nothing to stop. It continued unabated because when neighboring Arab states finally intervened, they did so without conviction. They came belatedly and with only small, ill-equipped forces, no match for a superior, well-armed Israeli military easily able to prevail as discussed below.

Ethnic Cleansing Defined

Pappe notes that ethnic cleansing is well-defined in international law that calls it a crime against humanity. He cites several definitions including from the Hutchinson encyclopedia saying it’s expulsion by force to homogenize the population. The US State Department concurs adding its essence is to eradicate a region’s history. The United Nations used a similar definition in 1993 when the UN Commission on Human Rights (UNCHR) characterized it as the desire of a state or regime to impose ethnic rule on a mixed area using expulsion and other violence including separating men and women, detentions, murder of males of all ages who might become combatants, destruction of houses, and repopulating areas with another ethnic group.

In 1948, Zionists waged their “War of Independence” using Plan D to “cleanse” Palestine according to the UN definition. It involved cold-blooded massacres and indiscriminate killing, targeted assassinations and widespread destruction as clear instances of crimes of war and against humanity, later expunged from the country’s official history and erased from its collective memory. It was left it to a few courageous historians like Ilan Pappe to resurrect events to preserve the truth too important to let die. His invaluable book provides an historic account of what, in fact, happened. It needs broad exposure but won’t get it in the corporate-controlled Israeli, US or Western media overall. It will on this important web site with the courage to publish it.”

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By Robert, July 27, 2007 at 8:05 am Link to this comment

(Part II- Continued from previous comment)

“How can they as Muslims in a racist Jewish state where Israelis oppressive them with impunity, the US goes along with huge financing and supplying of the most modern and destructive weapons of war, and the West and most Arab states are indifferent preferring to ally with Israel and the US for benefits received while writing off Palestinians as a small price worth paying. It created state of appalling human misery and desperation severely aggravated by crushing economic sanctions for the past year imposed for the first time ever on an occupied people. They’re responsible for poverty and unemployment levels of 80% or more and increasing instances of starvation and unreported deaths from all causes because Israel controls everything and everyone allowed in and out of the territories. Those inside them suffer painfully as a result. Others with power to help, don’t care and do nothing.

Pappe documents how it all began in 12 chapters with a short epilogue plus 18 graphic pictures needing no explanation. He calls the book his “J’Accuse against the politicians who devised the plan and the generals who carried out the ethnic cleansing” naming the guilty, the villages and urban areas destroyed, and the cruelest crimes committed against defenseless people only wanting to live in peace on their own land and were willing to do it with Jews as neighbors but not as overlords or oppressors.

This review is lengthy so readers will know in detail what Israeli authorities successfully suppressed for decades. Pappe courageously revealed it in a book begging to be read and discussed by all people of conscience and good faith. They need to take the lead building a groundswell consensus to stand up to this long-festering injustice against defenseless people fighting for their rights and existence against overwhelming odds.

Pappe provides them help with his extensive documentation and other suggested reading on the origins of Zionist ideology leading to the ethnic cleansing in the 1940s and thereafter. He particularly mentions two of Nur Masalha’s important books - Expulsion of the Palestinians: The Concept of Transfer in Zionist Political Thought, 1882 - 1948 and The Politics of Denial: Israel and the Palestinian Refugee Problem. Readers are encouraged to explore this issue further with these and other books exposing ugly truths long suppressed in the West and needing to be freely aired.

The Beginning - Initial Planning for Ethnic Cleansing

In his preface, Pappe writes about the “Red House” in Tel-Aviv that became headquarters for the Hagana, the dominant Zionist underground paramilitary militia during the British Mandate period in Palestine between 1920 and 1948 when the Jewish state came into being. He details how David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, met with leading Zionists and young Jewish military officers on March 10, 1948 to finalize plans to ethnically cleanse Palestine that unfolded in the months that followed including “large-scale (deadly serious)intimidation; laying siege to and bombarding villages and population centres; setting fire to homes, properties and goods; expulsion; demolition; and finally, planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled inhabitants from returning.”

The final master plan was called Plan D (Dalet in Hebrew) following plans A, B, and C preceding it. It was to be a war without mercy complying with what Ben-Gurion said in June, 1938 to the Jewish Agency Executive and never wavering from later: “I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it.” Plan D became the way to do it. It included forcible expulsion of hundreds of thousands of unwanted Palestinian Arabs in urban and rural areas accompanied by an unknown number of others mass slaughtered to get it done. The goal was simple and straightforward - to create an exclusive Jewish state without an Arab presence by any means including mass-murder.”

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By Robert, July 27, 2007 at 7:58 am Link to this comment

The Ethnic Cleansing Of Palestine

Review By Stephen Lendman

“Ilan Pappe is an Israeli historian and senior lecturer at Haifa University. He’s also Academic Director of the Research Institute for Peace at Givat Haviva and Chair of the Emil Touma Institute for Palestinian Studies. Pappe is an expert on Israel and Zionism and the Palestinians’ Right of Return to their homeland, is considered “an honourable academic with integrity and conscience,” and is a member of the Advisory Board of the Council for Palestinian Restitution and Repatriation (CPRR), an organization declaring that “every Palestinian has a legitimate, individual right to return to his or her original home and to absolute restitution of his or her property.”

Pappe is also one of Israel’s “new historians” whose scholarship and writings are based on access to material now available from British Mandate period and Israeli archives that provide the most accurate and authentic documented history of Israel before and after it became a state and which now serve to debunk the myths about the years leading up to the Jewish State’s founding and those following it to this day.

Pappe has also authored, contributed to or edited nine books. His latest is the one this review covers in detail so readers will know about its powerful and shocking content, unknown to most in the West and in Israel, that hopefully will arouse them enough to get the book and learn in full detail what Pappe documented. He proves from official records how the Israeli state came into being with blood on its hands from lands forcibly seized from its Palestinian inhabitants who’d lived on it for hundreds of years previously. Since the 1940s, they were ethnically cleansed and slaughtered without mercy so their homeland would become one for Jews alone.

The shameful result is that Palestinians then and today have almost no rights including being able to live in peace and security on their own land in their own state that no longer exists. Survivors then and their offspring either live in Israel as unwanted Arab citizens with few rights or in the Occupied Palestinians Territories (OPT) where their lives are suspended in limbo in an occupied country in which they’re subjected to daily institutionalized and codified racism and persecution. They have no power over their daily lives and live in a constant state of fear with good reason. They face economic strangulation; collective punishment for any reason; loss of free movement; enclosures by separation walls, electric fences and border closings; regular curfews, roadblocks, checkpoints, loss of their homes by bulldozings and crops and orchards by wanton destruction and seizure; arrest without cause, and routine subjection to torture while in custody.

They’re targeted for extra-judicial assassination and indiscriminate killing; taxed punitively and denied basic services essential to life and well-being including health care, education, employment and even enough food and water at the whim of Israeli authorities in a deliberate effort to destroy their will to resist and eliminate those who won’t by expulsion or extermination. Palestinians have no power to end these appalling abuses and crimes against humanity or receive any redress for them in Israeli, the West or through the International Criminal Court Israel ignores when it rules against its interests.”

(Part I- continued in next comment)

http://www.rense.com/general75/eth.htm

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By tuantu, July 27, 2007 at 7:36 am Link to this comment

3rd Reply to INHERIT WIND
Only more wrath and more chastisement! I thought I had apologized adequately for not paraphrasing Dayan. I guess nothing can satisfy a Chosen person except complete and total prostration.  But this is not all your fault. Because of the way you have conditioned America’s politicians to grovel and fawn at all of your collective feet it has accustomed you to be such a demanding person.
It is you WIND who doesn’t want to face the facts about Israel and so you lecture me and chat about everything else except the “Founding Myth” report.  As the psychologist Gordon Allport once pointed out: “People who feel that they are at being attacked cannot be taught and will not consider nor acknowledge to the truth.”
I do not want Israel to be destroyed. Like George Bernard Shaw once wanted, I just want the Jews to stop beings Jews and start acting like human beings. And decent human beings would not have done what you Israelis have done to the guiltless and hapless Palestinians who only fault it seems is to have migrated into the Land of Israel hundreds of years after the Romans had literally kicked the Jews out of the area. Do thousands of other Jews who are against Israeli policy in the Middle East and their treatment of the Palestinians also really hate the Jewish state? I am talking about Jews such as Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky or Nahman Syrkin who in 1898 wrote this: “The Jews are an incurably bad people, a people always seeking its own benefits and wanting to enslave the world, a people which in spite of all its efforts to assimilate, still remains strange and hostile to the non-Jews. The Jew is the torchbearer of capitalism, exploitation, usury, and suppression. At the same time, he is also the yeast of history, upsetting and destroying all that is stable, the troublemaker incarnate. In short, the Jewish people is the curse of humanity.”  You can find that quote in “The Zionist Idea” pp 337
Barry Lando ended his excellent report with this comment: “much more remarkable is how successful the Israelis have been convincing American leaders to play along with their founding myth.” I just wanted to point out that it isn’t all that remarkable that Israel owns America when you consider that as far back as 1750 the French philosopher Condorcet knew that because of the gullibility and stupidity of the vast majority of the French population, a cunning highly organized minority (such as the Jews) would be able to indoctrinate them at will and create an elite oligarchy behind a ‘democratic front.’ When Senator William Fulbright declared in 1972 that the Israelis control politics in Congress and in the Senate,” and then added that the United States was
“subservient” to Israel” I realized that what Condorcet had theorized had actually become a reality. I also want to point out that the dominance of a highly organized minority (like the Jews) obeying a single minded impulse, working towards a collective goal over a feeble minded, unorganized majority is possible and doable since the power of a dedicated organized minority, as against the power of a single unorganized individual within the majority (like myself) is much greater since the minority is highly organized and dedicated and the majority of single individuals are not. It is especially easy to accomplish when the dedicated minority also just happen to control all of majority’s mass media. The public is controlled by the careful management and manipulation of the information they receive and your job, I believe,  as a “lookout” here at Truthdig is to make sure that any information the majority might
inadvertently receive that might resuscitate them is to bury this information ASAP. Is your position as a “lookout” “official or unofficial”? Organized or unorganized? Amateur or profession? Do you have accomplices. Who are they?

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By Neoconned, July 27, 2007 at 3:33 am Link to this comment
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#89851 by Hilljew on 7/26 at 4:01 pm

Only the Prophet Elijah can lead the Jews back to the Holy Land.  They were exiled due to back sliding on their covenant with God.  Hence were punished with exile.

And here you have been quoting the Torah as saying to use force of arms to take back the Holy Land.  But a Marxist/Leninist agenda from east European Jews is not, to put it mildly, the will of the All Mighty.

So really, Zionism is an atheistic construct.  And everything you have said about the Torah telling you to take the Holy Land by force, is BLASPHEMOUS and against God’s will.

I’m starting to believe the Zionist Israel is the biggest Anti-Semite.  Judaism is antithetical to Zionism.  And I think you know that, don’t you. 

I’ve always wondered why Israelis whine and complain, and whine some more, about the Holocaust.  I used to think, why are Israelis pre-empting an argument no one raised in the first place.  Why the touchiness about Holocaust denial or reduction etc,.  Who cares if people believe the Holocaust or not.  Why constantly make a federal case of it.

Something just occured to me:
I’m begining to suspect what you are really doing is making a petition to the All Mighty.  You have pre-empted the arrival of the Prophet Elijah, and hence all this wailing and gnashing of teeth about the large numbers in the Holocaust.  The large number may mitigate God’s Wrath.  You are superstitious enough to see you have tempted fate by not waiting for Elijah.  And the wrath of God may be at hand soon. And according to the Torah, Jehovah punishes Jews collectively for the sins of the few.

I wonder if this explains why so many Israelis are so up tight and hyper?

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By GodSend, July 27, 2007 at 12:06 am Link to this comment

Hilljew:

Had God ended Judaism when your so-called messiah came, then there would be no Jews today. If we had ceased being chosen after the time of Jesus, we wouldn’t be here. But God thinks differently, and in due course He will strike you too down—all you who raise hands against us.

You logic is as twisted as a Bush pretzel!

There are Jews today (Torah Jews). There are Zionists today (Satanists). There are so-called Jews today (‘Reform’ Jews of all stripes - they are not really Jews). There are MANY ZioChristians today who are not followers of Christ - they worship Mammon. God keeps His Word - about “the rebellious house of Israel”. “...and I will gather them {in His furnace} and MELT them” (Ezekiel). The only questions are ‘When’ and ‘How’. ‘How’ could be nukes (Russia’s or Israel’s) or a Coma (Comet). In any case, Israel’s fate is ‘Desert Glass’. Why, do you suppose, so many Israelis are heading for Germany?! Soon, many more will be heading to their former homelands. Who wants to be melted in God’s furnace, after all? Do you?

Who, exactly, is ‘us’? In any case, I’m not raising a hand against anyone! God will do a MUCH better job on those who deserve His wrath (He’s got a MUCH bigger hand!) He’s done it to His Chosen People before! - more than once wink

Are you familiar with the website “JewsforJesus”? Read some of the statements by Jews who became Messianic Jews! Messianic Jews number around 200,000 and that number is GROWING rapidly. “They, too, will be grafted in {to the Body of Christ} IF they do not continue in unbelief” {reject the Deity of Christ as their Messiah}.

It’s all so perfectly clear! smile How come you don’t ‘get it’? Are you dense as well as blind? Have a heart-to-heart talk with a Messianic Jew! wink

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., July 26, 2007 at 9:04 pm Link to this comment

OK! Now that we have had our rants and raves, let us commit ourselves to the promotion of a set of peaceful principles and apply them across the board to Jews, Muslims, Christians, et al.

I propose that we start with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of the United Nations, dated 1948.

http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm

Let us see how Israel stacks up against those principles and how America, United Kingdom, Jordan, Egypt, China, Russia, and others deal with them. It could be argued by Jews that God ordained them, by Muslims that they are contained in an interpretation of the Qu’ran, by Christians that they were what Jesus spoke of in his Sermon on the Mountk and the golden rule. Buddhists could find them in the life and example of The Buddha. Hindus could find them in the Bagavad Gita. American Natives and Australian aborigines could find them in the knowledge of the Great Spirit. Even the African and Amazon jungle tribes may be able to find them somewhere in jungle lore or the oral tradition of their people.

In any event, the 1948 version was compiled by a group of UN members and their writers and representatives with the help of advisers and other over the shoulder kibitzers. It incorporated quite a few of the conditions I would desire in such a document. It was ratified by quite a few UN members of 1948 and has been signed onto by many others.

Let us hear it for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 26, 2007 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment
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Tuantu:
Face facts: Either you made this shit up, or quoted it from someone who made it up.  You didn’t say you were paraphrasing Dayan, you said you were quoting him.

I proved that was IMPOSSIBLE because YOU quoted Dayan directly as using the term “Ethnic Cleansing”.  And that is impossible.  You COULD have said you were paraphrasing him, which would have been less egregious, but then would force you to produce the ACTUAL quote, prove its provenance, and THEN have your interpretation of it questioned.

You could have simply admitted you didn’t KNOW it was impossible for Dayan to have said “ethnic cleansing”.  But instead you tried to COVER UP your faux pas, and shoved out a lot of quotes with phony provenance.

Why? Because like so many here you simply hate Jews and REALLY hate the Jewish state.  I don’t know why: either you buy into the bullshit or you are pissed at paying $3/gal for gas for your SUV because we won’t let Israel be destroyed.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 26, 2007 at 8:33 pm Link to this comment
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Frank Goodman, Sr. on 7/26 at 2:55 pm
(30 comments total)

Re: #89790 by Inherit The Wind on 7/26 at 1:27 pm

I do not see where I ever said that it was impossible to convert to Judaism, or to Christianity.

Then perhaps you should re-read your own post:
“No Muslim could become an ultra-orthodox Jew by his own choice. He would have prove to the satisfaction of a rabbi that his mother descended directly through her mother from a Jewish woman.”

What I object to is that one must be admitted by a human being before God will accept you into those faiths.

Islam is between an individual human and God, even if local rules and misrules interpret otherwise.

You may be right about this—all you have to do is say 3 times “There is no god but God”...the catch is—it has to be WITNESSED by Moslems—and that puts it back in humans hands.

BTW, it would be illegal to kill a Muslim who converts to Christianity in the United States, just as it would be illegal to have more than one legal wife at a time, or practice human sacrifice, freedom of religion notwithstanding.

I never said that—I SAID that in Arab states and OTHER Moslem states for one to convert AWAY from Islam would bring down the death penalty on their head.

You misinterpret the fanatic killing of Muslims for conversion. There are fanatic Muslims as there are fanatics in any faith system. The crime for Muslims is apostasy, not conversion. Apostasy is to deny God. Even that should be no crime in the jurisprudence of humans in Islam. Punishment for apostasy is well in the hands of God. Men need not interfere.

Should? Well I happen to agree with you that is what SHOULD be so.  But in the Arab states, conversion AWAY from Islam is ipso facto “Apostasy” and Apostasy in THEIR nations carries the death penalty. I mis-interpreted nothing.

Unfortunately, I do not control any fanatics, even Muslim fanatics. I accept the will of God. But, be assured it is not in Islam as such, but in the interpretation of the doctrines of Islam by people who do not understand Truth as such. I do control my reactions to fanatic killings by Jews, Christians, or Muslims. I don’t go out and take revenge, because I leave that to God the Almighty Who has a better method than I could devise with all my knowledge of chemistry or physics. Frank Goodman, Sr.

I am Agnostic and do no recognize God’s hand in this but other than that I agree: Islam has been twisted.  So has Christianity and Judaism—as well as Hinduism and Buddhism.

This is why I say ALL religions are failures—they cannot convince their followers to go in one direction—devout believers may go in totally opposite and deadly directions.

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By Tony Wicher, July 26, 2007 at 7:44 pm Link to this comment

Re #89837 by Neoconned on 7/26 at 3:25 pm
Re #89812 by Hilljew on 7/26 at 2:25 pm

“As I understand it, in Judaism the people are in exile due to Divine decree.  And may only return by devine intervention.  So really you are commiting a Blasphemy by going along with a secular Zionist agenda but dressing it up in the name of Jehovah’s wishes and citing the Torah.

What does it feel like using the Torah in such a cynical way to commit such a Blasphemy in the name of God?  Do you think God is not watching?  Going by your rules and standards, you have entered the Holy Land before God has so decreed it. 

As usual you upset the Almighty.  As I understand Judaism, god’s wrath is thorough.  And he don’t forget. Ohhh boy, are you in for another whooping.  It’s the Golden Calf party all over again.  And someone made a mess on the carpet.”
—————————————————————————-
Neoconned,

That is how I also understand the objections of the True Torah Jews to Zionism. Though I am far from being an orthodox believer, I greatly respect their wisdom in this matter. Jewish people have been terribly misled by Zionism. This pernicious ideology should have stayed the crackpot idea it always was. It has brought nothing but suffering to Jew and Gentile alike. If the Jewish people do not repudiate it, they will indeed be completely destroyed - whether by God or by the internal logic and psychology of Zionism itself - and will probably take the rest of civilization with them.

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By tuantu, July 26, 2007 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment

Second Reply to Inherit Wind
That was quite a lambasting you gave me WIND! Why so angry? Because of the facts are true? Are you angry at me because “the declaration of the State of Israel was at the expense of ethnically cleansing 513 Palestinian villages, creating over 700,000 Palestinian refugees, and expropriating their lands, homes businesses in 78% Palestine” is true?  Those facts I had nothing to do with. That’s your outlook. And it would be difficult to refute those facts because in the important Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot (14 July 1972), Yoram Bar Porath reminded his Israeli readers of the objective to be reached (BY ISRAEL) : “It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is NO Zionism, colonialization OR JEWISH STATE WITHOUT THE EVICTION OF THE ARABS AND THE EXPROPRIATION OF THEIR LAND.”  The problem of the Palestinians was posed very clearly even before the existence of the State of Israel. The director of the National Jewish Fund, Yossef Weitz, was writing already in 1940: “It should be clear for us that there is not room for two peoples in this country. If the Arabs leave it, there will be enough for us..  There is nothing else to do but to remove them all; we mustn’t leave a single village, a single Arab tribe…”
Or are you mad at me because even though the facts are true, Dayan was not the type of Jew - i.e., an honest Jew - and would never have admitted the truth? However he did say half of what I thought he said. As Defense Minister Dayan did in fact make the statement (to a class of Israeli students in 1969) that: “There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”  So I got half of the quote correct. Whether Dayan said it or not the whole quote I attributed to him is 100% true beyond any doubt and can be proven in any court of law outside of England, America, Australia, Israel, etc.
Question: Why did the American government threaten to withhold favored nation status to China because of its violation of human rights but supported Israel with billions of dollars when Israel’s human rights violations in the conquest and subjugation of the Palestinians were/are much worse then China’s violations of its own citizens? Is it because the American people did exactly the same and worse to the 25 million indigenous native Americans when
they declared the United States of America? Or is it because as Prime Minister Sharon candidly admitted “We(Israel) owns America and America knows it”? Did Sharon actually say that or did he not? It is such an accurate statement of reality that it is true and cannot be denied regardless of whether Sharon actually said it or not.  If Sharon did not say it then I will (because it is provable beyond any doubt in any court of law outside America, Israel, England, etc.): “Israel (the Jews) own America and America knows it.” However I believe that America is too owned to be able to do anything about it.  America today is in the same situation the Southern black slaves in America were 150 years ago. The Negroes knew they were enslaved by the whites but could not do anything about it except try to get away. They eventually needed outside help. Wind,  I am just trying to help free you because I feel the rest of the world would have it better if the American people were actually free of Israel. America today is certainly not the “home of the free and the land of the brave.” And that can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt in any court of law outside America, Israel, England, etc. I say it again another way: America is owned by Israel and the Israelis know it.

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By Robert, July 26, 2007 at 7:17 pm Link to this comment

July 26, 2007

Thoughts on the Attempted Murder of Palestine
The Siren Song of Elliott Abrams

By KATHLEEN CHRISTISON
Former CIA analyst

“Coup” is the word being widely used to describe what happened in Gaza in June when Hamas militias defeated the armed security forces of Fatah and chased them out of Gaza. But, as so often with the manipulative language used in the conflict between the Palestinians and Israel, the terminology here is backward. Hamas was the legally constituted, democratically elected government of the Palestinians, so in the first place Hamas did not stage a coup but rather was the target of a coup planned against it. Furthermore, the coup—which failed in Gaza but succeeded overall when Palestinian Authority President acting in violation of Palestinian law, cut Gaza adrift, unseated the Palestinian unity government headed by Hamas, and named a new prime minister and cabinet-was the handiwork of the U.S. and Israel.

The Fatah attacks against Hamas in Gaza were initiated at the whim of, and with arms and training provided by, the United States and Israel. No one seems to be making any secret of this. Immediately after Hamas won legislative elections in January 2006, Elliott Abrams, who runs U.S. policy toward Israel from his senior position on the National Security Council staff, met with a group of Palestinian businessmen and spoke openly of the need for a “hard coup” against Hamas. According to Palestinians who were there, Abrams was “unshakable” in his determination to oust Hamas. When the Palestinians, urging engagement with Hamas instead of confrontation, observed that Abrams’ scheme would bring more suffering and even starvation to Gaza’s already impoverished population, Abrams dismissed their concerns by claiming that it wouldn’t be the fault of the U.S. if that happened.

Abrams has been working on his coup plan ever since with his friends in Israel. As part of this scheme, the U.S. also urged Abbas—again making no secret of this—to dissolve the Fatah-Hamas unity government formed in March this year, form a new government, and call for new elections. Abbas acceded to U.S. demands with embarrassing alacrity after Hamas took Gaza. In a further gratuitous turn of the screw, he has appealed to Israel to turn up the heat on Hamas in Gaza by stopping delivery of fuel to Gaza’s power plant and keeping the Rafah border crossing point from Egypt closed so that none of the thousands of Palestinian waiting at the border to return home will be able to enter.

The UN’s outgoing Middle East envoy, Alvaro de Soto, whose final report on his two years in Palestine-Israel was recently leaked to the press, describes Abrams and a State Department colleague, Assistant Secretary David Welch, threatening immediately after the Hamas election victory to cut off U.S. contributions to the UN if it did not agree to a cutback in aid to the Palestinian Authority by the Quartet (of which the UN is a member, along with the U.S., the EU, and Russia). De Soto also describes a gleeful U.S. response to Hamas-Fatah fighting earlier this year. The U.S., he says, clearly pushed for this confrontation, and at a meeting of Quartet envoys, the U.S. delegate crowed that “I like this violence” because “it means that other Palestinians are resisting Hamas.”

The Israeli-U.S. strategy for Palestine is now crystal clear: overturn the will of the people (in this case as expressed through democratic elections), kill off any resistance (Hamas in this case, along with any civilians who might get in the way), co-opt a quisling leadership (Fatah and Mahmoud Abbas), push out and kill if necessary as many people as international opinion will allow, ultimately rid Palestine of most Palestinians. The cast of characters and organizations has changed from earlier times, but this has essentially been Israel’s strategy from the beginning.”
===============================================
http://www.counterpunch.org/christison07262007.html

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By Neoconned, July 26, 2007 at 5:23 pm Link to this comment
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#89851 by Hilljew on 7/26 at 4:01 pm

Im impressed.  You managed to take a partial sentence quote and source it. Hmmmmmm

Ahhh If only such a mind could be channeled towards all human kind instead of just a “chosen few”.

I personally don’t wish you ill.  I do distress at how you can kill another human being with such disregard and yet eagerly publicize how palestinians kill.  Surely God didn’t give you a license to kill did he?  Have you personally tortured and killed Palestinian men, women and children?

You get a state by hook or by crook after thousands of years, and all you can do is behave like Roman Soldiers or Nazis?  Is that all Israel can be?  A nation of narrow minded, in bred, zealots?

And How can I taste God’s Retrubution?  Why should I repent when I haven’t killed anyone? My conscience is clear.  I’m not a sociopath as you seem to be.

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By Hilljew, July 26, 2007 at 5:01 pm Link to this comment

re: #89837 by Neoconned on 7/26 at 3:25 pm

Those “deities” seem not to have protected their followers so well… the nations believing in them are now no more. Only truth endures. Only the One True God, and the people He has chosen.

The Torah gives us the Land of Israel, and only the Land of Israel. All the rest of the world belongs to non-Jews. New York, to go with your mention, is completely outside our interest. In contrast, Hitler believed the Volk was entitled to the whole world, including New York. An oft overlooked difference.

God dispersed us to the four corners of the earth, yes, but that dispersal was never meant to be forever. And it is now coming to an end. Your quoting of the Naturei Karta line, the doctrine of a splinter-sect of a splinter-sect, won’t fly. And by the way, the Naturei Karta are true self-hating Jews, as they prayed for the murder of Jews by the Arabs. For that, they have been ostracized by all Jewish groups, including even anti-Zionist like Satmar (the original sect from which they had sprung). But you have your agenda, so you’re all OK with quoting such an insignificant sect of self-hating, ostracized Jews.

God’s wrath will be upon you. Upon those who stand against the Jewish State, Israel, the State of the Jews. Had he not approved of the State of Israel, of Zionism as a whole, then there were many points where he could have pulled the plug on it, not least of which was the confrontation with five Arab armies in 1948. As it happened, He approved. Because, as Rabbi Kook zt"l said, Zionism, even in the hands of non-religious Jews, was the tool to carry out His order for the Jews to repopulate the Land of Israel. That is His will, no matter whatever instruments He uses to carry it out. The blasphemy is yours, and you will taste God’s retribution soon unless you repent.

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By Neoconned, July 26, 2007 at 4:53 pm Link to this comment
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#89812 by Hilljew on 7/26 at 2:25 pm

As I see you have already commited the sin of citing the Torah to justify suppresing your fellow man.
I think you have commited the following crimes, if one goes by your rules.  (You may be familiar with them.)

3rd Commandment - Thou shalt not make wrongful use of the name of thy God (Zionists citing the Torah for their own agenda)

6th Commandment - Thou shalt not murder (How many Palestinians have been killed by Zionists since 1948)

7th Commandment - Thou shalt not commit adultery (How many Zionists have raped Palestinian women and girls?)

8th Commandment - Thou shalt not steal (Need I say more?)

9th Commandment - Thou shalt not bear false witness (Denying Palestinians ever lived in Palestine)

10th Commandment - Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house/wife (Hmmmmm.  Zionists have done a fair amount of coveting)

If you really believe in the Torah then you are in BIG trouble.  I wonder if this is why so many Israelis sound worried?  Every time they cite the Holocaust, it seems like they are mounting a defence towards God.

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By Neoconned, July 26, 2007 at 4:25 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#89812 by Hilljew on 7/26 at 2:25 pm

Ahhhh my Friend, that depends which God someone considers Top.

Jehova; Jupiter; Odin; Wotan etc, etc.
Any one of these deities could have sanctioned their followers.

So far as the Torah saying you can have it…well, you are making a Racist assumption there.  About as racist as Hitler.  Only in your case, you are the “Aryans”, the chosen few. 

Suppose the Mohawk Indians said their Gods told them to take back New York from all the Jews Living there.
Native Americans have been living in North America for 10,000 years.  I assume the Torah told you to take New York from the Mohawks?

BUT there is one small point you missed out.  Becasue the Jews displeased God, they were disperesed to the four corners of the earth. 

As I understand it, in Judaism the people are in exile due to Divine decree.  And may only return by devine intervention.  So really you are commiting a Blasphemy by going along with a secular Zionist agenda but dressing it up in the name of Jehovah’s wishes and citing the Torah.

What does it feel like using the Torah in such a cynical way to commit such a Blasphemy in the name of God?  Do you think God is not watching?  Going by your rules and standards, you have entered the Holy Land before God has so decreed it. 

As usual you upset the Almighty.  As I understand Judaism, god’s wrath is thorough.  And he don’t forget. Ohhh boy, are you in for another whooping.  It’s the Golden Calf party all over again.  And someone made a mess on the carpet.

I have to say, there are some people of Judaism I have a great deal of warmth and good will towards.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., July 26, 2007 at 3:55 pm Link to this comment

Re: #89790 by Inherit The Wind on 7/26 at 1:27 pm

I do not see where I ever said that it was impossible to convert to Judaism, or to Christianity. What I object to is that one must be admitted by a human being before God will accept you into those faiths.

Islam is between an individual human and God, even if local rules and misrules interpret otherwise. BTW, it would be illegal to kill a Muslim who converts to Christianity in the United States, just as it would be illegal to have more than one legal wife at a time, or practice human sacrifice, freedom of religion notwithstanding.

You misinterpret the fanatic killing of Muslims for conversion. There are fanatic Muslims as there are fanatics in any faith system. The crime for Muslims is apostasy, not conversion. Apostasy is to deny God. Even that should be no crime in the jurisprudence of humans in Islam. Punishment for apostasy is well in the hands of God. Men need not interfere.

Unfortunately, I do not control any fanatics, even Muslim fanatics. I accept the will of God. But, be assured it is not in Islam as such, but in the interpretation of the doctrines of Islam by people who do not understand Truth as such. I do control my reactions to fanatic killings by Jews, Christians, or Muslims. I don’t go out and take revenge, because I leave that to God the Almighty Who has a better method than I could devise with all my knowledge of chemistry or physics.

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By Charles Barton, July 26, 2007 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“after thoroughly researching Israeli archives, Morris found that not only was there no evidence that Arab leaders had called upon their people to flee in 1948-49, but that records revealed exactly the opposite: “In no case did a Palestinian population abandon its homes before an attack.” To the contrary, Israeli intelligence services had actually intercepted calls from Arab leaders asking Palestinians either to remain in their homes or to return if they had already fled.” - Barry Lando

Again Barry Lando shows his utter ignorance of what Benny Morris has said about his research.  In 2004, Morris described: “villagers ordered by Arab commanders to send away women, children and the old to safety in inland areas; and of economic privation, unemployment and general chaos as the British mandate government wound down and allowed the two native communities to slug it out. The better-organised, economically more robust and ideologically more cohesive and motivated Jewish community weathered the flail of war; Palestinian society fell apart.”

Did Morris “thoroughly research Israeli archives” as Lando claims?  Morris himself recognizes his original “work’s major methodological flaw - the relative lack of basic military and intelligence documentation . . .”

There is very strong evidence from Arab sources that, contrary to Morris, Arab leaders did order the evacuation.  Morris himself acknowledges this is part in the first quotation, which clearly demonstrates that Palestinian leaders did order evacuations.

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By Hilljew, July 26, 2007 at 3:25 pm Link to this comment

re: #89751 by Neoconned on 7/26 at 11:31 am

As far as our being “extra special”: take up your complaints with God, who set up the whole thing.

The Jews’ permission to take and inhabit all the Land of Israel does not stem from our being victims; it is based on God’s promise in the Torah. He says, in the Torah, that we should take the Land of Israel, for He has given it to us, no matter what the world thinks, and no matter who may be living on it at the time. There were seven peoples living in the Land of Israel when the Israelites headed by Joshua crossed the Jordan; they drove them all out, under God’s explicit command. So too should be done today, and with God’s help will be.

re: #89752 by GodSend on 7/26 at 11:32 am

Had God ended Judaism when your so-called messiah came, then there would be no Jews today. If we had ceased being chosen after the time of Jesus, we wouldn’t be here. But God thinks differently, and in due course He will strike you too down—all you who raise hands against us.

re: #89776 by Frank Goodman, Sr. on 7/26 at 12:50 pm

Regarding what you said, “No Muslim could become an ultra-orthodox Jew by his own choice. He would have prove to the satisfaction of a rabbi that his mother descended directly through her mother from a Jewish woman.” Utterly false: there is the possibility to convert to Judaism, open to anyone who wishes. We don’t seek converts, and we try to discourage any prospective convert, but a non-Jew who’s determined enough to become a Jew can do it. It’s not as cheap and easy as conversion to Christianity or Islam, but it’s not proscribed by ancestry as you falsely claim.

re: #89777 by Robert on 7/26 at 12:51 pm

Zionism is an inseparable part of Judaism. Your attempts to detach the two are well-known, but they are doomed to fail. As I said: Judaism is both religion and nationality. You won’t define Judaism for us.

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By Neoconned, July 26, 2007 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#89764 by Howard on 7/26 at 12:21 pm

Howard

I don’t think anyone has ever said Arabs don’t need to get their house in order. 

The issue is Israel using the (Jews only) Holocaust in a shamless way to get a Mulligan on their misdeeds. On the rather Sneaky disengenuous way of bulldozing over Human beings and still claim to be a modern democracy and a nation of laws.

Tell me, if I was in your way, would Mossad put a bullet in my head?

Are you the only people to have ever suffered tragedy in human history?  6 Million Gentlies also died in the Holocaust.  How many gentiles have you heared make a meal of that one?  I don’t hear any Gentiles shouting “Holocaust Exclusion” when one of your bretheren remembers their own people.  One would be tempted to think only Jewish lives matters to you.

Who suffered more: a Jewish child getting gased in Auschwitz; or a Vietnamese child getting burned to death with napalm?  It would take a pretty sick mind to quantify who suffered more.  I just wonder if you would have said the Jewish child?

You must think I am anti-semitic.  For what it’s worth, I am not.  I just refuse to give a blank cheque to anyone. Even if they are…..Jewish.

Even Steven Spielberg was taking some heat for his film Munich.  What did they accuse him of? ......Moral Equivalency.  As he said in response, there is no pleasing some people, no matter how much you explain.

So I’d like to say Pretty Please, with a cherry on top, I am not anti-semitic.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 26, 2007 at 2:27 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Any Jew or Christian could become a Muslim just be reciting the Shahada in the silence of his own heart. No Muslim could become an ultra-orthodox Jew by his own choice. He would have prove to the satisfaction of a rabbi that his mother descended directly through her mother from a Jewish woman. He could not claim descent through his father even if he could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that his father was not a kukold.

*********

Mr. Goodman, you are talking crap.  What you CLEARLY are unaware of is that conversion to Judaism is DEFINITELY possible.  That you are unaware of it is simply your ignorance.  Conversion is difficult, painful and you are discouraged from it every step of the way.  That’s part of how you prove your faith—you go through the wringer.

All the major branches of Judaism provide for conversion—including the Orthodox.

Infant conversion for adoptees is also available—it’s much easier because the onus is on the parents to raise the child as a Jew.

The other piece of crap involves Moslem conversion to Judaism or Christianity.  In almost every Moslem nation, and in Iran, Afghanistan and the Arab nations, conversion away from Islam is A CAPITAL CRIME, PUNISHABLE BY EXECUTION!  In this way, Islam, 1400 years into its existence, mirrors where Christianity was 1400 years into ITS existence—where refusal to conform to the Church was punishable by death.

The fact that Judaism is passed down via the mother is not uncommon in various world religions, because, until the last 30 years, it was IMPOSSIBLE to prove who the father was, but it was very possible to prove who the mother was.

Does it offend your male ego that women are the proof of Jewish lineage, not men?  Too bad. For their time, when the Jewish laws were written, they were the greatest advancement in Law since Hammurabi’s Code.  Many were very logical, such as much of the Kosher laws, and the laws for personal cleanliness.  This, too, was a logical law.

I know you pride yourself on being some kind of expert on Religions, but here is something you CLEARLY have no clue about because you’d never have posted if you had.

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By Robert, July 26, 2007 at 1:51 pm Link to this comment

Comment #89640 by Neoconned on 7/26 at 1:44 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“#89604 by Lefty on 7/25 at 8:24 pm

Lefty

I think you need some kind of psychiatric help.

Have you been traumatised by some recent event in your life?  You seriously need counceling.”

==================================================

Neoconned;

One doesn’t really need too much or any expertise to see right through “lefty=ephraim/pesach”, his zionist name, deranged fanatic zionist behavior. You are NOT the only one who has noticed his paranoid/bi-polar disorder and other symptoms.

Lefty=ephraim/pesach represents the purist forms of Zionism. He is occupied and bottled up with racism and fanatical zionist behavior. This sick and deranged zionist can kill/murder Palestinian women, children, Arabs, Christians and Moslems without feeling any remorse at all. Just like his Israel IDF killers.

Notice how much hatred this deranged zionist has for Christians and Moslems. He has not told us what he feels about Judaism.

LEFTY=EPHRAIM/PESACH IS ZIONISM’S SPOKESPERSON. ONE CAN ALMOST SEE THE LOOK ON HIS FACE AND IN HIS DERANGED EYES. 

Lefty-ephraim/pesach, ill-lie-mamzer and “inherit zionist hot wind” represent the evil forms of zionism. They do NOT represent the TRUTH of Judaism.

One should not waste any time on their posts. Its all been mostly lies and zionist propaganda.

They whine a lot and scream “anti-semitism” when they see posts that are critical of their beloved Israel and its Apartheid systems.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., July 26, 2007 at 1:50 pm Link to this comment

Re: #89730 by Tony Wicher on 7/26 at 10:07 am

I agree that without context, this sounds anti-Semitic to any Jew. But, it is not in the framework of context. Not all Jews accept converts, and most would subscribe to the tribal identity of Jews as racial, tribal and for the most orthodox, as based upon matralineal descent as the only certainty. No Muslim or Christian would identify his religion with a tribe, ancestral line, or brand every man a cukold, just in case he is. It is true that most Arabs are Muslim, but not all Muslims are Arabs.

Any Jew or Christian could become a Muslim just be reciting the Shahada in the silence of his own heart. No Muslim could become an ultra-orthodox Jew by his own choice. He would have prove to the satisfaction of a rabbi that his mother descended directly through her mother from a Jewish woman. He could not claim descent through his father even if he could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that his father was not a kukold.

As a person who does not accept that route to legitimacy, I reject the doctrine of matralineal descent as proof of the validity of my belief. That does not make me anti-Semitic, any more than any Christian who has accepted Jesus as his Savior, to legitimize his religious belief.

I happen to believe in Truth (With a capital T). I may not, as a matter of honesty, know what is or is not true beyond mathematical or logical certainty, but I do know that Islam does not describe the size, shape, shoe size, or cranial capacity, or reproductive powers with a virgin female as the physical attributes of Allah. It is enough to know that truth is beyond the view of any human, but that reasonable people could agree on certain assumptions as to the divinity. Any Jew, Christian, or atheist, who utters the Shahada in sincerity, is Muslim, even if he still believes that Jesus and Moses were leaders of their own faith and that Jesus was born of a virgin.

I do believe that Truth is superior to Christianity, Judaism, atheism, or Islam. But I am not against the people who believe honestly. I am not against any person as such, though I may be quite against what they do or even what they think, if their thinking advocates violence. But if the act is against Truth, or Human Rights, I oppose them in my thought if not in my action. Only when I am threatened with violence, do I become violent in defense. This does not single out Jews, but does single out anyone who advocates violence in any form except self-defense, including Jew who do violence.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 26, 2007 at 1:31 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

GodSend on 7/26 at 11:32 am
(168 comments total)

For anyone interested in the topic of Zionist racism, study the following website thoroughly:

http://www.jewishracism.com/index.htm

If you have a particular interest in Christian Zionism, there is a link on that site which explains what Holy Scripture has to say about Israelis. Did/do Zionists and Jews deny the Deity of Jesus the Christ? You betcha! Anyone who denies the Deity of Christ is an Anti-Christ!

As He has done several times in the history of His stiff-necked Chosen People, God will once again show His wrath for their persistent rebelliousness by gathering them in His furnace and MELTING them! (Ezekiel). “The Word of God is living and powerful” - even today! You might say “from the diaspora into the fire”  Why does the Golden Calf have such a powerful hold on the Chosen People?

Judaism became a dead religion when the Chosen People rejected their Messiah - God’s Son - when He arrived among them, as prophesied by their own prophets! (Isaiah and others) How blind can they be? They need Amazing Grace before they will finally SEE! Fortunately, with God, all things are possible. Their only hope is the spiritual leadership of Messianic Jews who have not fallen into the Zionist trap, set by Theodor Herzl (and others).

It is written!

*****************

DogShit—The Racist, hate-filled Christian Taliban.  Yet this bozo has the un-mitigated gall to think he has God’s grace.  Were this the time of Torquemada, DogShit would be RIGHT by his side, burning heretics, and praising God as they screamed.

He’d be the one searching for dry wood that wouldn’t smoke so that the burned wouldn’t even have the tiny mercy of suffication, but would instead have to feel their flesh burn and burn until their heart stopped.  And DogShit would be coming in his pants repeatedly watching them burn and listening to them scream.

Because DogShit isn’t saved. DogShit is nothing but a sadist in disguise.

Do you REALLY think your threats of damnation mean a damn thing?

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By Howard, July 26, 2007 at 1:21 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Israel is a tiny country, with only six million inhabitants(a million of whom are Arabs). It is surrounded by 22 Arab countries, with 300 million people.
Arab propaganda has convinced the world that Israel is the mighty Goliath compared to the puny Arab states. It is a supreme irony that six million Israelis, surrounded by implacable enemies who
are fixated on their destruction, are considered a mortal danger to the Muslims and to the peace of the world. And that, if it were not for Israel and for the Jews, peace would descend upon the world and terror would cease.
Israel is not the “root cause” of this strife and turmoil in the Middle East. Violence and war are endemic in Arab society and in Arab history.
Israel was not involved in the deaths of the
millions who perished in the Iraq-Iran war. Israel certainly has nothing to do with the slaughter in Iraq, in which on an average day, 100 people or more are killed in the deadly and never-ending Sunni-Shiite conflict. And even though Israel
is the common enemy, it has nothing to do with the daily killings between the rival factions of Palestinians. Arab-Muslims killed over a million of black Christians and animists in the Sudan and brought intolerable suffering to that impoverished region. The Sudanese government, dominated by Arab-Muslims, hasn’t lifted a finger to help its citizens. The slaughter goes on. Israel is certainly not involved in that. The thousands whom Hafez Assad, the father of the current president of Syria, slaughtered in the city of Hama for having voiced opposition to his rule have no connection with Israel. Abdal Gamel Nasser, the selfappointed
president of Egypt, mortal enemy of Israel and
instigator of the Six-Day War, did not invade Yemen and gassed its people because of Israel. Saddam Hussein did not torture and kill tens of thousands of his own people and did not invade Kuwait because of Israel. The Lebanese did not stage their civil war and kill tens of thousands of their own
people because of Israel. And there are many more examples of intra-Muslim and intra-Arab slaughter and mayhem.Israel was uninvolved in any of those

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By GodSend, July 26, 2007 at 12:32 pm Link to this comment

For anyone interested in the topic of Zionist racism, study the following website thoroughly:

http://www.jewishracism.com/index.htm

If you have a particular interest in Christian Zionism, there is a link on that site which explains what Holy Scripture has to say about Israelis. Did/do Zionists and Jews deny the Deity of Jesus the Christ? You betcha! Anyone who denies the Deity of Christ is an Anti-Christ!

As He has done several times in the history of His stiff-necked Chosen People, God will once again show His wrath for their persistent rebelliousness by gathering them in His furnace and MELTING them! (Ezekiel). “The Word of God is living and powerful” - even today! You might say “from the diaspora into the fire” wink Why does the Golden Calf have such a powerful hold on the Chosen People?

Judaism became a dead religion when the Chosen People rejected their Messiah - God’s Son - when He arrived among them, as prophesied by their own prophets! (Isaiah and others) How blind can they be? They need Amazing Grace before they will finally SEE! Fortunately, with God, all things are possible. Their only hope is the spiritual leadership of Messianic Jews who have not fallen into the Zionist trap, set by Theodor Herzl (and others).

It is written!

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By Neoconned, July 26, 2007 at 12:31 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

When is this MASADA mindset ever going to stop?  I know it’s tempting for people of any tribe to see themselves as extra special but, for Pete’s sake, give it a rest.

It isn’t just that Victimhood is really self pity.  It’s also an awful lot of Whining.

How long can Jews keep re-enacting a made for TV Masada movie? 

You want to be considered super special.  Fine.  But you also want to be treated like other nations.  You can’t have it both ways.

How much license can one country take on itself and not expect to suffer isolation.
 
“OYYY VEYYYY….The Suffering!!!  Look at the nasty anti-semitic world.  They are jealous because God only loves us.  We must Whine some more when we get home.  May we never stop whining.  It’s too much fun.  In fact, we may enter it as an Olympic Sport.  Oyyyyyy Veyyyyyy!!!”

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By Hilljew, July 26, 2007 at 11:20 am Link to this comment

re: #89711 by Frank Goodman, Sr. on 7/26 at 8:52 am

Your linked piece about Prescott Bush only proves my point: Left and Right have switched sides in the Western world. Liberal values were espoused by FDR’s party and often opposed by members of the Right; today, liberal values are espoused by the current Bush’s party and often opposed by members of the Left.

Zionism in its 19th-century origins was modeled after the nationalist movements and socialist ideals of its time (the 19th century), I agree; however, Zionism in essence is rooted in the Hebrew Bible and all Jewish rituals, prayers and religious injunctions. Zionism today is no longer so beholden to the 19th-century ideas in which it was first framed, but is instead marked by a return to an emphasis on its religious basis. In other words: your charge is irrelevant to our times.

As for protecting Jews from anti-Semitism, Theodore Herzl thought Zionism would do that, but he was wrong, because he did not adhere to the religious Jewish view. The religious Jewish view holds that hatred of the Jews is a decree of God, a means of keeping us a separate people, tied to him instead of straying to all winds. Anti-Semitism assumes many forms, such as the “Christ-killer” myth, the racial theory (of the Nazis) and today anti-Zionism, “criticism of Israel’s policies”; it changes to adapt to the circumstances. Anti-Semitism will end only when God ends it.

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By Hilljew, July 26, 2007 at 11:18 am Link to this comment

re: #89682 by Neoconned on 7/26 at 6:34 am

Judaism, as well as a religion, is a nationality—a tribal identity. It cannot be otherwise, despite many attempts throughout the ages to redefine it. All attempts to remake Judaism in one’s image, either as a religion alone (or just a set of nice ideas) or as a nationality alone (the original 19th-century Zionism), have ultimately failed.

Don’t get me wrong: it’s perfectly legitimate to try to fashion your religion or nationality in the DIY way; just, if you derive it from Judaism, you can’t use the name “Judaism” any longer.

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By Chris Murphy, July 26, 2007 at 11:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There will be no peace so long as there is occupation. Since immediately after the 1967 war, as a matter of U.N. record, Arab countries offered recognition of sovereignty for all states in the region on the condition of complete withdrawal from the lands captured and occupied in the 1967 war. Israel has refused to withdraw. Instead it actually expands settlements. That is inherently incompatible with peace.

Colonization, and settlement are acts of war. Early Zionist leaders knew this. It’s a propaganda ploy to turn the aggressive invader into a victim.

And what makes it different from what European settlers did to the native Americans is that Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions expressly making colonization in occupied territories illegal. And the fact there are no direct decedents alive in any of the historical analogies made thus far. There are numerous direct decendents alive today who have been dispossessed of land and property and a home without any compensation, without any hope for a viable future.

And the notion of a two-state solution is completely absurd in the face of the “Swiss cheese” that Israel has made of the West Bank with its illegal settlement activity.

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By Tony Wicher, July 26, 2007 at 11:07 am Link to this comment

Re #89711 by Frank Goodman, Sr. on 7/26 at 8:52 am

“Anti-Semitism is a reaction to the tribal belief in the superiority of Jews in the sight of God.”

Frank,

We usually agree about everything, and I agree with everything in this post of yours except the above sentence. As far as I can tell, all tribes, nations, peoples and religions have a tendency to believe in their own superiority above all others. That’s a fact of social psychology. Christians and Muslims have no less of a belief that they are superior in the sight of God than Jews. To single Jews out in this respect does sound anti-Semitic to my ears. 
Sorry, buddy.

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By Tony Wicher, July 26, 2007 at 10:36 am Link to this comment

Re #89593 by cyrena on 7/25 at 7:46 pm

So that’s who made the dinosaurs become extinct. The Jews! i never thought of that. Now I understand.

Seriously, cyrena, that’s a great post. This is Robert Scheer’s Truthdig forum. Most of us here are progressive Democrats, many of us middle-aged or beyond. We were in the Civil Rights movement. We are members of organizations like the ACLU. We have been defending the rights of minorities in this country, including Jews, all our lives. Many of us are Jewish, or as in my case, partly Jewish. We spoke about Nazis and the Holocaust at the dinner table when I was a child. My father gave me a very good education about Nazis and how to spot them. A man of peace, he volunteered to fight the Nazis in WW II.
I am a proud Nazi fighter and a long standing member of the Southern Poverty Law Conference. I have a picture on my wall of the compound of the Brotherhood of Aryan Nations being burned down by the SPLC after they were awarded the property in a judgment against them for hate crimes.

I understand what racism is and Zionism is racism. I fully endorse the U.N. General Assembly resolution 3379 adopted by a vote of 72 to 35:

“3379 (XXX). Elimination of all forms of racial discrimination

The General Assemby,

Recalling its resolution 1904 (XVIII) of 20 November 1963, proclaiming the United Nations Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, and in particular its affirmation that “any doctrine of racial differentiation or superiority is scientifically false, morally condemnable, socially unjust and dangerous” and its expression of alarm at “the manifestations of racial discrimination still in evidence in some areas in the world, some of which are imposed by certain Governments by means of legislative, administrative or other measures”,

Recalling also that, in its resolution 3151 G (XXVIII) of 14 December 1973, the General Assembly condemned, inter alia, the unholy alliance between South African racism and zionism,

Taking note of the Declaration of Mexico on the Equality of Women and Their Contribution to Development and Peace 1975, proclaimed by the World Conference of the International Women’s Year, held at Mexico City from 19 June to 2 July 1975, which promulgated the principle that “international co-operation and peace require the achievement of national liberation and independence, the elimination of colonialism and neo-colonialism, foreign occupation, zionism, apartheid and racial discrimination in all its forms, as well as the recognition of the dignity of peoples and their right to self-determination”,

Taking note also of resolution 77 (XII) adopted by the Assembly of Heads of State and Government of the Organization of African Unity at its twelfth ordinary session, held at Kampala from 28 July to 1 August 1975, which considered “that the racist regime in occupied Palestine and the racist regime in Zimbabwe and South Africa have a common imperialist origin, forming a whole and having the same racist structure and being organically linked in their policy aimed at repression of the dignity and integrity of the human being”,

Taking note also of the Political Declaration and Strategy to Strengthen International Peace and Security and to Intensify Solidarity and Mutual Assistance among Non-Aligned Countries, adopted at the Conference of Ministers for Foreign Affairs of Non-Aligned Countries held at Lima from 25 to 30 August 1975, which most severely condemned zionism as a threat to world peace and security and called upon all countries to oppose this racist and imperalist ideology,

Determines that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.

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By Ben, July 26, 2007 at 9:57 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“There can be no peace in the Middle East until Israel and the Palestinians deal with one key issue:”

Horsepoop.  Peace can be found when the two parties decide not to fight.  NOTHING prevents the Arabs from doing this, no act of history real or imagined, zip, zero, nada, squat.  To believe otherwise is to think that the ongoing war between Japan and Russia will not be resolved until they deal with the Kuriles, or until Poland and Russia resolve the seizure of Eastern Poland in 1914, or maybe the US and Mexico should work out the consequences of the 19th century US-Mexico war to end the constant battles between them.  Why do only Arabs get to declare some historical events worth fighting over and others- like the Arab occupation of North Africa- bygones?  Funny, you never hear anyone say that perhaps Turkey should be restoring land stolen from the Greeks.  Why is that?  Why is it a goddam one way street- it only matters when the people with the short stick are muslims?  If Israel is in any way “illegitimate” by what right does Turkey even exist?  Shouldn’t it be “Eastern Greece”?  1948 is SO OVER, as the teenagers say. And you know, so is 636, so lets not discuss the Arab occupation of all the land seized by Arab armies in the 7th century and after.  History.  Done.  Over.  Drop it.  Peace.  Deal with today. THAT is how PEACE is done.

If Arabs really want to get their panties twisted over 1948 borders, perhaps the world should consider forcing them back to 635 borders.

 

Ben

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., July 26, 2007 at 9:52 am Link to this comment

Re: #89674 by Hilljew on 7/26 at 6:07 am

Interesting that you mention FDR. Check out what BBC and others have found in the archives of the FDR time.

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/20070725_bushs_fascist_pedigree/

I lived through the Great Depression. Two threats were present in that time. One was the threat of the labor leaning communists who tried to organize the working class people of America against this country. The other was the fascists uncovered in the BBC report. Hitler and Mussolini were the fascist advocates for Europe. Lenin & Stalin were the communist advocates in Europe. There were Asian equivalents of both as well. George W. Bush’s grandfather, Prescott Bush, was one of those in the fascist threat against FDR.

The Zionist movement was primarily a socialist model in a fascist jacket. It tried to use both fascist and socialist appeals to create a Zionist refuge that could grow into a regional economic power.

Zionism has failed as a system to protect the Jews from the anti-Semites. Anti-Semitism is a reaction to the tribal belief in the superiority of Jews in the sight of God. Christians see it as a threat to Christianity, Muslims see it as a threat to Islam, and other Jews see it as a threat to Judaism. Modern international economics see Zionism as a threat to multi-national corporations and peaceful commerce. Jews are more in danger than at any time in their history. They are in danger of losing the concept of a refuge for Jews, economic domination of world financial affairs, and peace in the market places of the world.

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By Chris Murphy, July 26, 2007 at 8:33 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

In 1923, Jabotinsky wrote in the Iron Wall:

“Apart from those who have been virtually “blind” since childhood, all the other moderate Zionists have long since understood that there is not even the slightest hope of ever obtaining the agreement of the Arabs of the Land of Israel to “Palestine” becoming a country with a Jewish majority.

“Every indigenous people will resist alien settlers as long as they see any hope of ridding themselves of the danger of foreign settlement.

“That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing, and what they will persist in doing as long as there remains a solitary spark of hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of “Palestine” into the “Land of Israel”.

“Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population – an iron wall which the native population cannot break through. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs.”

So well prior to 1937, Zionist leaders were very clear that the indigenous population was Arab and that they would have to be dispossessed, and exported, and Jews immigrate, in order for Israel to exist. They knew it wouldn’t come voluntarily. They knew it would be violent. Palestinians have been, well before the present, and before the intifadas, been defending against an invasion.

Israel wants Palestinians to make all of the sacrifices. The least Israel could do is admit the truth. And part of that truth is that everyone knows there will be no right of return for the Arabs, even though there is one for Jews.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., July 26, 2007 at 7:41 am Link to this comment

Re: #89671 by Lefty on 7/26 at 5:59 am

To the thoughtful entry by CitizenDefender, you make a ridiculous statement that Christianity and Islam “...are just so much more primitive, tribalistic, and murderous than other religions.”

The origin of all religions and religious thought is primitive in human reaction to existence and life. The only animal that wonders about such things in any way that we could understand is Homo sapiens. Humans are not the only species that seem to mourn their dead, but only humans do it in conjunction with a religious belief in an afterlife and a supreme being.

Few religious movements are so universal in appeal that they could advocate for all races, tribes, nationalities, economic levels, or philosophic orientation. Christianity and Islam are high on the success lists of such universal appeal religions. Few religions match the ‘murderous’ excesses of Judaism. Go to the source books of the Bible and take note of the ‘God’ facilitated murderous rampages of the pre-Jewish tribes and even the post Exodus Children of Israel.

Islam dealt with a murderous culture of pre-Islam bent upon destruction of Islam. Islam used the Holy War (Jihad), to quell the violent opposition to Islam in the tribes of Arabia. Christianity dealt with a desire to return to the Holy Land and later day Christians organized the Crusades (Holy Wars). Both Islam and Christianity preach peace and universal brotherhood, while defending themselves against the incursions of the ‘tribal’ religious enthusiasts.

That does not guarantee that Christianity or Islam is the one and only true religion of God. Islam embraces Truth, while Christianity embraces the man, Jesus, as the Christ, risen to the status of God himself, the presence of God on Earth. Judaism is the epitome of a tribal religion out of control.

I am reminded of the joke: What are the differences among Jews, Christians, and Muslims? Mohammad believed that God owns him and everyone else, Moses believed that Jews own God, and Jesus believed that he IS GOD over everyone.

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By Neoconned, July 26, 2007 at 7:34 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#89674 by Hilljew on 7/26 at 6:07 am

There is no such thing as a Self-Hating Jew.

That is just something people like you say when someone doesn’t agree with your own Self Pitying vicious Tribalism.

I have nothing but respect for any Israeli who doesn’t indulge in group think.

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By Hilljew, July 26, 2007 at 7:07 am Link to this comment

Lefty,

The ones who are preparing the Zyklon B gas—or its atomic equivalent—are the Muslims, aided and abetted by the Left you consider yourself a part of.

The neo-Stalinist Left (Communism can boast of 100,000,000 deaths to its name) is using self-hating Jews for the useful idiots they are, to be stabbed in the back when they’ve outlived their usefulness.

The truly liberal Left from the FDR days? It’s almost dead. If you’re looking for standing up to liberal values, you’ll have to jump over to the Right. Today’s Left are either Nazis themselves (ex.: Adam Gadahn) or Nazi-supporters (ex.: most of the scum posting here).

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By Charles Barton, July 26, 2007 at 6:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“European Zionist leaders had secretly discussed plans for transferring the Arab population out of Palestine as far back as 1937 in Zurich. They had few illusions that the relocation of up to 500,000 Arabs could be peacefully achieved. “It is hard to imagine a transfer without recourse to force,” Ben Gurion later wrote in 1941.” - Barry Lando

Once again Barry Lando demonstrates his ignorance.  First He relies exclusively on Benny Morris, even though Morris’s dishonest manipulation of his sources has long been known to historians.  In 1937 a British Commission on Palestine proposed that Palestine was to be devided between Arabs and Jews, with the Arabs to get 80%, and the Jews 20%, mainly in the Galilee, and along the Israeli sea coast.  One feature of the British plan was involved a population transfer, since major areas of Jewish settlement were to be abandoned to the Arabs.  In exchange for Jews moving from the South of Palestine, the British proposed that Arabs were to leave the Galilee, and settle in the areas which the Jews had left. 

Confronted with ther impending holocaust, and the desirability of having a Jewish refuge in Palestine, the Jewish agency executive council discussed the British proposal and decided to accept it.   

Ben Gurion in 1941 was not advocating violence to chieve a population redistribution, he was pointing to a weakness of the British redistribution plan.  Ben Gurion’s speeches and transcripts of discussions he engaged in clearly show his concern for recognizing arab human and civil rights in Israeli society.  In Israel’s Proclamation of Independence, which David Ben Gurion read on May 14, 1948, he stated:

“Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.

“We extend the hand of peace and good-neighborliness to all the States around us and to their people, and we call upon them to cooperate in mutual helpfulness with the independent Jewish nation in its Land. The State of Israel is prepared to make its contribution in a concerted effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.”

In responce six Arab Armies invaded Palestine, intent on destroying the new Israeli state, and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled their homes at the instigation of the Arab leadership.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 26, 2007 at 6:27 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Frank Cajon:

Your comments are intelligent, pithy, well-reasoned and worthy of proper debate and discussion.

In other words they don’t belong here among the anti-semitic Jew-haters who want this site to be nothing but a circle-jerk where they can reinforce their preconceived notions.

Don’t look for intelligent comment and response—look for denial and flames.

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By Hilljew, July 26, 2007 at 6:24 am Link to this comment

In the past, the demands used to be half and half: that Israel give the territories taken in 1967 to the Palestinian Arabs entirely, for an independent Palestinian Arab state, and then the Palestinian Arabs would lay down their weapons, laying down the business of 1948-9 as well.

But now the demand, made not only by the Palestinian Arabs, but by the anti-Israel Left, is that Israel cave in on ALL things—even the matters of 1948-9. Everything. Totally everything.

This is good. Israel now has justification to refuse everything. Or put it another way:

When the enemies of Israel demanded half, we were willing to give away half; now that they demand everything, we will give nothing.

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By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, July 26, 2007 at 5:17 am Link to this comment

Hey, Lefty and all commentors to this post, thanks for the entertainment.  There’s no winning with a Jew, Muslim or Christian.  Go fishing.

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By CitizenDefender, July 26, 2007 at 5:00 am Link to this comment

All religions create their own dogmas. The Universe which all of mankind is a part of is consistent in its symmetric chaos. The body lives because of energy not the other way around. The laws of nature are equal to the laws of existence. Disagreement on who has the correct enlightenment is futile. War exists because of ignorance and a spiritual disconnect from ones divine nature. Ethnologue lists 6,912 living languages in the world today. There are perhaps just as many versions of religious philosophy. So who is right? Everyone and nobody. Instead of looking for ways to find differences, look at how many ways we are alike. An atheist believes this is no supreme deity. Proving a Negative - Disproving God is a venture in futility. One religion believing they alone have the real TRUTH only fuels discord.
We are all part of a collective consciousness regardless of our religion. The myth of today may be the truth of tomorrow. Love thyself and love thy neighbor is the only way to stop discontent.

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By Neoconned, July 26, 2007 at 2:44 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#89604 by Lefty on 7/25 at 8:24 pm

Lefty

I think you need some kind of psychiatric help.

Have you been traumatised by some recent event in your life?  You seriously need counceling.

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By GodSend, July 26, 2007 at 1:07 am Link to this comment

Let’s all remember that ‘Lefty’ represents the finest human being that Zionism has to offer! He just proved it in the last few posts. Can you imagine what the real nasty and evil Zionists are like? - like Bush and Olmert and Perle and Feith and Abrams and Greenspan, etc.! Well, if you’re a Palestinian civilian, Palestinian pregnant woman trying to cross an Israeli checkpoint to get to a hospital, Lebanese civilian, Gaza Palestinian child, American peace protester, Gitmo detainee, Katrina victim, Iraqi civilian, GI or just plain, average American with eyes wide open, you can! It’s taking less and less imagination to learn what ghastly crimes they are capable of! It makes our foul-mouthed ‘Lefty’ here look like a harmless little squirt! wink

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By Frank Cajon, July 25, 2007 at 11:03 pm Link to this comment

Got all you folks in a lather, I see. Boy, you people don’t like to be accused of anti-Semitism. Why not? I have advanced degrees, so I do know about the Zionist movement. I in fact find fault with a lot of what has transpired on the Israeli side of the Palestinian mess all the way back-not the least the spying to steal US nuclear secrets, and most recently the body count in Southern Lebanon.
What I see is this absolutist ideal most of this board seems to have that the entire problem is because of the Israelis and none of it due to anything done by Palestinians or Islamic states wanting to destabilize that area.
All of this quick defense about nobody being a Holocaust denier. Methinks you: a) protest too much; b) didn’t read what I said, that I got sick and tired of the anti-Zionist socialist dream decades ago, and that many of these blogs ‘remind’ me of the Holocaust deniers I ran into then.
Cyrena, yes, there have been big losses on both sides. I have heard the term Palestinian Holocaust before. I realize that there have been reprehensible conditions in some of the refugee camps. Have there been 6 million starved, burned, or shot? No, but my argument doesn’t say that makes it okay. I make the point that BOTH sides of this conflict persist in resisting attempts at peace with the other. I guess I am alone in that assertion, which I have long held. Arafat played nice for the Camp David accords, while condoning terrorist suicide killings of civilians as martyrs in a holy war. Meanwhile, Israel’s hard-line mililary is the source of most of its political leadership and they routinely retaliate for such terrorism with shelling of Palestinian settlements in full knowledge that there will be high collateral damage.
I lurked here for weeks before joining and was hesitant, seeing flashes of anti-Semitism but so pissed at the recent events, I jumped on from another blogsite. The split there was about 50/50 on Israel/Palestinian conflict but there were Bush/Cheney apologists that dragged every thread through the same old crap. If no one in this board can see this trend, I guess it’s an anti-Zionist board, in this respect not that different from the National Socialist Movement website, which has a blog board and shares the same view of the Zionists. Perhaps Truthdig is not really a that good a place for free discussion of criticism of the political status quo, and that is what I am really looking for.

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By Robert, July 25, 2007 at 10:20 pm Link to this comment

Here is a chance to see CNN’s Wolf Blitzer defending Israel and Zionism. BTW, Blitzer used to work for AIPAC.

Wolf Blitzer in 1989 defending Israel at a Penn State University panel. Blitzer was challenged by Norman Finkelstein.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-8aTGnjHnI

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By Ken, July 25, 2007 at 9:48 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There is little difference between what the US government did to the native Indian population and what the Israelis did to the Palestinians.  The Israeli government is not “convincing” anyone in the US government of anything. They are as equally eager to erase the record of their past deeds and their current ones in Iraq.

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By cyrena, July 25, 2007 at 8:46 pm Link to this comment

#89579 by Frank Cajon on 7/25 at 7:05 pm

#89579 by Frank Cajon on 7/25 at 7:05 pm

Hey Frank:

Just a “general” sort of reply to your post. I have to say that in ALL of the postings that I’ve read on this site, as well as others, and in all of my conversations and the conferences that I attend, I have YET to hear -ANYONE-, actually DENY that the Jewish Holocaust took place.

I HAVE heard it from leaders such as Iran’s very provocative Ahmedinejad, (and I know that it has a place in Muslim rhetoric from way back) but in reality, NO sensible person is going to deny what we all know took place. It has all been far too meticulously documented, trials were held, punishments were handed down, reparations have been paid, and the horrors of the events have been memorialized in museums and history books throughout the globe. No one was “unaffected” by that particular Holocaust, and no one is denying its existence.

So please, don’t do this. Don’t accuse every single person, who voices dismay or outcry about the OTHER Holocaust, which has been perpetrated against the Palestinians, for 60 years, as being anti-Semantic. That’s the part we’re sick of hearing. Same with the 1400 year old stuff. They were doing fine, all living together, Muslims, Jews, and Christians, and other religions, until the birth of the Jewish State. That kicked off another Holocaust, and it hasn’t stopped yet.

So, please stop making those kinds of broad and general accusations, because we’ve been through it a million times, and it flies in the face of what is presented here in this article that we are commenting on, on this particular thread.

Meantime, there’s no mention here (in the article) of dinosaurs, (although I’m sure they lived far longer than some people are aware of) and we aren’t even talking about the “creation” of the world here either. There aren’t that many posters here, who hold to the “6-day” creation theme. (I never did).

So, maybe we’re even smarter than you think. And, that means this isn’t likely to happen:

•  Also, there is overwhelming scientific evidence that the universe was not created in 6-24 hour days 6,000 years ago and that dinosaurs lived on this planet successfully for 160 million years. Now, watch some one on this board will say that they were killed off by the Jews.

Now, I could be wrong. Somebody could pop up and say that the Jews killed them off. I just doubt it. On the off chance that it does happen, we generally ignore those people.

Because in reality, it’s not about anybody being anti-Semantic. If Israel was a population of 7 million Hindus, rescued from any part of Asia, and they were behaving like the rogue state that Israel is, then it would be the same thing. So, throw that card out of your arsenal. There are no David Dukes here. We don’t like racists’, period. And, most racists don’t like ANY other race but their own.

If the shoe fits, then one must wear it.

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By GodSend, July 25, 2007 at 8:27 pm Link to this comment

FC:

You apparently fail to recognize the BIG difference between Zionists and real Jews (Semites). First thing, educate yourself! Go to the Neturei Karta website and read what they have to say about Zionism and Zionists. Then visit ‘JewsAgainstZionism’ and learn what they have to say. Then, read Alan Hart’s book: “Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews”. Then, study the ‘JewsForJesus’ website. Then, have a look at the ‘JewishRacism’ website. Then, check out the ‘Ziopedia’ website. Then, read Benjamin Freedman’s speeches in 1961 and 1974. After you have done all that, come back here and demonstrate what you have learned. wink

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By Frank Cajon, July 25, 2007 at 8:05 pm Link to this comment

Hey, Godsend, nice piece, and better than the bit about Mossad agents being in the jets that hit the twin towers. Bin Jagged, thanks for the history lesson, this whole thread reminds me of having to listen to SDS true believers who were really not as communist as me in 1968 but absolutely sold that the Holocaust never happened-and in a way more fascist than the worst of the Nixon/Mitchell cabal that was napalming Cambodia in secret.
People, you are all intelligent enough to know that BOTH the Israelis, backed with billions worth of US weapons, and the Palestinians and neighboring Islamic countries, armed to the teeth by Iran, Syria, Saudis, and Russians, are at fault here. I haven’t seen as much anti-Semitism since hearing a speech by David Duke in the late 1980’s as I have on this board in a month. I do not care less if anyone agrees with this, and have made this stand before. Hey, most of the other blogs make sense. Bush/Cheney seizing the US by force, running a war to launder money, likely not stepping down without a revolution, etc. I can buy all that.
But, I believe the Holocaust happened because my father was at the Buchenwald camp when the Allies took it. He isn’t Jewish, neither am I and the conduct of Israel since 1948 certainly is nothing to be particularly proud of. But, there are a lot of intelligent people on this board who are in my opinion every bit as blindly anti-Semitic as the above mentioned Duke. No wonder Bush/Cheney is able to take our liberties away, we’re a nation where playing on fear and hatred is a sure path to pull in a following, like lemmings over a fucking cliff. Jesus, no wonder the religious right has people convinced that stars aren’t really far away and dinosaurs never really lived. BOTH SIDES ARE WRONG. THEY HAVE BEEN ENEMIES FOR 1400 YEARS AND TRAGICALLY MAY NEVER ALLOW ONE ANOTHER TO LIVE IN PEACE, AND IT IS NOT JUST THE ACTIONS OF ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER THAT HAVE CREATED THE PROBLEM OR MADE IT WORSE OVER THE YEARS.
Also, there is overwhelming scientific evidence that the universe was not created in 6-24 hour days 6,000 years ago and that dinosaurs lived on this planet successfully for 160 million years. Now, watch some one on this board will say that they were killed off by the Jews.

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By Robert, July 25, 2007 at 8:01 pm Link to this comment

Moshe Dayan-A Brief Biography & Quotes

BASED On Declassified Israeli Documents & Personal Diaries

1915-1981

“Moshe Dayan belonged to a new generation of tough home-grown military commanders. Born in 1915 to Shmuel Dayan (member of the first Knesset) in Degania near the Sea of Galilee. In 1935, he joined the Haganah in his teens, and in 1941 he lost an eye in an Allied operation against the forces of the French Vichy Government in Lebanon. During the 1948 war, his battalion captured Ramla and Lydda, and he later became the governor of Jerusalem. He held several positions in the Israel Defense Force as a chief of staff and a minister of defense during the 1967 war. When Ben-Gurion was the Prime Minister of the “Jewish state”, he was regularly consulted on defense issues. Besides his military career, he also was a farmer, a secret poet, an amateur archeologist, a politician, and a statesman, who usually spoke briefly and to the point.
Famous Quotes

Moshe Dayan stated his opinion regarding his anti-infiltration policy in the early 1950s:

“Using the moral yardstick mentioned by [Moshe Sharett], I must ask: Are [we justified] in opening fire on the [Palestinian] Arabs who cross [the border] to reap the crops they planted in our territory; they, their women, and their children? Will this stand up to moral scrutiny . . .? We shoot at those from among the 200,000 hungry [Palestinian] Arabs who cross the line [to graze their flocks]——will this stand up to moral review? Arabs cross to collect the grain that they left in the abandoned [term often used by Israelis to describe the ethnically cleansed] villages and we set mines for them and they go back without an arm or a leg. . . . [It may be that this] cannot pass review, but I know no other method of guarding the borders. then tomorrow the State of Israel will have no borders.” (Righteous Victims, p. 275)

In the mid-1950s, Moshe Dayan was anxious to initiate a “preventive” war against Egypt to neutralize the modernization of its army, according to Moshe Sharett’s diary:

“Moshe Dayan unfolded one plan after another for direct action. The first—-what should be done to force open blockade of the Gulf of Eilat. A ship flying the Israeli flag should be sent, and if the Egyptians bomb it, we should bomb the Egyptian base from the air, or conquer Ras al-Naqb, or open our way south of Gaza Strip to the coast. There was a general uproar. I asked Moshe: Do you realize that this would mean war with Egypt?, he said: Of course.” (Iron Wall, p. 105)

Moshe Dayan wrote in the 1955 regarding the collective punishments imposed on Palestinian civilian population by the Israeli Army:

“The only method that proved effective, not justified or moral but effective, when Arabs plant mines on our side [in retaliation]. If we try to search for the [particular] Arab [who planted mines], it has not value. But if we HARASS the nearby village . . . then the population there comes out against the [infiltrators] . . . and the Egyptian Government and the Transjordan Government are [driven] to prevent such incidents because their prestige is [assailed], as the Jews have opened fire, and they are unready to begin a war . . . the method of collective punishment so far has proved effective.” (Righteous Victims, p. 275-276)”

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story649.html

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By GodSend, July 25, 2007 at 7:39 pm Link to this comment

That’s a very good post, bear47! smile If we would all just focus on everyone’s children, their future and well-being, it would be a much better world. Why don’t we focus on our children and why do we make these innocents suffer so much? Who is robbing us of our humanity? Why is anyone still picking up a gun and killing other human beings (including children of all ages) for NO GOOD REASON! Is there ever a good reason?

Einstein warned: “There will be no end to war until the people refuse to go to war”. Lt. Ehren Watada is setting a good example! We must refuse to go to war. Like Dr. Zhivago did when he just left the partisans one day when he got mad as hell and refused to take it any more! When are Americans going to get mad as hell and refuse to take it any more? When how many of our children are dead or dying or orphaned and they are physically and emotionally scarred for the rest of their lives? For what?

God forgive us for letting evil men (like Bush) commit atrocities on children and other innocent people. Otherwise, there will be hell to pay!

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By WriterOnTheStorm, July 25, 2007 at 7:19 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

As my mother said every Sunday morning—thank gawd I’m an atheist.

Having slogged through another 137 TD comments on the Middle-East conflict. Here’s what I’ve come away with:

The intellectual tide is slowly turning against the Zionists. Having lost the benefit of doubt, their version of Israel’s nascence will not stand up to long term scrutiny. The result will be the eventual loss of American support for their expansionist project.

The underlying tone of desperation in the comments by pro Zionists suggest that they are keenly aware of this possibility. In this context, the larger question is what will the Zionists do in reaction?

When the Zionists (as opposed to moderate Israelis) find themselves wholly marginalized in world opinion, international law, and finally Capital Hill, can we expect them to turn a new leaf and work with Palestinians toward lasting peace?

Given Zionism’s bellicose history*, and presuming that lasting peace means per-capita sharing with Palestinians both the land and the resources of the region, it seems more likely that violence will be the result.

Without the aid of the United States, however, the Zionists will feel themselves backed into the nuclear corner, and the so-called Samson option will inscribe the final chapter in blood and ashes.

According to their own scripture, the tribes were cast out of the holy land as punishment, and were explicitly warned by god not to attempt to accelerate their redemption. Could nuclear annihilation be their punishment for ignoring the admonitions of the almighty?

...Slouching toward Bethlehem indeed.

P.S. Bin Jagged, blog on, baby, blog on.


*Apparently, the first acts of terrorism in that region were committed by the Zionists against the British.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 25, 2007 at 7:13 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tuantu:
If you choose to accept phony quotes without provenance, that’s your look-out. I simply point out that quote you made of Moshe Dayan is a phony, clear, simple and obvious, and YOU MISSED IT!

As Israeli Gen. Moshe Dayan once clearly revealed: “The declaration of the State of Israel was at the expense of ethnically cleansing 513 Palestinians villages, creating over 700,000 Palestinians refugees, and expropriating their lands, homes and businesses in 78% of Palestine…There is not one single place built in this country (Israel) that did not have a former population (of Arabs).”

It is IMPOSSIBLE for Dayan to have said this: COMPLETELY AND ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE! THIS IS A CRUDE FORGERY!

Why? Because Moshe Dayan DIED in 1981 and the term “Ethnic Cleansing” didn’t enter the lexicon in ANY language until the early 1990’s as used by the Serbs.  THE TERM DID NOT EXIST UNTIL 10 YEARS AFTER DAYAN DIED! HE COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT. TO SAY SO IS AN EASILY SPOTTED FORGERY!

You might as well have a quote from FDR saying he eMailed General MacArthur in the Pacific via VPN.

It’s amazing how many of these inflamatory quotes attributed to Israel leaders simply cannot be substantiated—and how many suckers believe them because it’s what they WANT to hear.

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By handsignals4the Blind, July 25, 2007 at 6:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

yes and whatever happened to those Israelis caught filming the WTC collapse on 9-11?-They were cheering and all were linked to the Mossad
Also at the time of 9-11 there was the largest roundup of Israeli spies———see the Art ring students

I could go on but point is the Israelis revised their history of colonial occupation and dehumanise the Palestinians———-chosen people cult is the problem!!

Israel is becoming an Apartheid state and the tactics of Mossad and Shin Bet should be a concern to every nation.

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By bear47, July 25, 2007 at 6:13 pm Link to this comment

It is way past time for America to stop funding Israel. It is also time to stop calling Israel a “Western Deomocracy”, it is NOT. If you are Jewish and live in Israel, you get to vote. If you are one of the few Arabs who still manage to live inIsrael, you are at best a second class citizen.
Ta 60 and having served as a Marine and done my tour in Viet Nam, I think it is also way past time to stop all the useless wars America gets itself into continuously. We need to get OUR troops out of the Middle East. The sooner the better.
If Israel wishes to bomb Iran or Syria, let them do it. But keep American troops OUT of it.
If either side wishes to buy American weapons or munitions, as long as they have cash, we should sell what we can to BOTH sides. Hell, at least we could make a few dollars. We sure as hell need the monsy to pay off all the money Bush has borrowed from China and Japan to fund the Afghan and Iraq wars.
Let Israel stand or fall on its own. They have the most powerful military in the entire region.
It is also long overdue for America to wake up and start learning world history. Hell, most Americans do NOT even know the history of America!
We also, as a people, need to realize one fundamental truth. People are people, the world over. Race,creed, religion, etc are artificial differences. Sure Africans have a much better tan than Scandinavians, so what? People are the SAME world over. We ALL need food,clothing, and shelter. We ALL want our children to have a good education and to have AT LEAST as good a life as we have. Hopefully the next generation will have a better life than we have. This is a basic human desire, and it is about damn time that we ALL wake up to this fact. No human being wants to live as a slave or a refugee. No human being should have to live as either.
People, put aside the foolish differences and wake up to the truth that ALL people are the same. It is the idiotic and morally corrupt leadership(?) who make our supposed differences such a big deal.
Why should your religion give you any “special” place in this world? You are free to practice your religion until you try to make me believe as you do. Until you make your religion “better” than any other religion. There is NO proof that ANY religion is actually 100% true. Time to realize this.
Maybe then we can ALL start to get along with each other. Anyone else care to give it a try?

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By Neoconned, July 25, 2007 at 6:02 pm Link to this comment
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#89510 by Lefty on 7/25 at 3:24 pm

The time will come when America will get so sick of you and your friends at AIPAC running Washington from Tel Aviv that there will be a back lash.

Then you can really wallow in the Victimology you practice so well.

(In fact you and AIPAC are so stupid, you have no idea what the idiot Evangelicals have in store for you sometime in the future.  The day of Apocolypse will come on the plains of Armageddon.  Then those buddies of yours on the Christian right will force you to convert to Christianity so you can experience the RAPTURE.  Otherwise you will be put to death. 
I know you won’t listen since you are so far up your own backside you can’t hear a thing.)

The sad part is, people like you will be responsible for ruining the lives of perfectly innocent Jews who never wished any one ill.

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By Paolo, July 25, 2007 at 3:42 pm Link to this comment

Many posters argue one way or the other whether it was the leadership of various Arab countries, or Israel, that demanded the NATIVE Palestinian population abandon their homes back in 1948.

I think a case can be made for both points of view. In fact, probably both views are right; I would not be surprised if both Arabs and Israelis commanded Palestinians to leave their homes.

This is, however, entirely beyond the point! Lando’s excellent article makes the point that, if Jews are allowed a “right of return” and instant citizenship, should not the same “right” be granted Palestinians, whose people have lived in the region for untold generations?

Incidentally, isn’t it kind of STUPID to say you have a “right of return” if, for example, your family comes from Winnemucca, Nevada? If that family has lived in America for six generations? If that family, before that, lived in Europe for ten centuries?

Right of “return???” Return from what? From being pushed out of the Levant by the Romans?

My goodness, many of Israel’s defenders get hot under the collar if we talk about “ancient history” going back to 1948! But they want to count history going back two thousand years!

That being said, let’s be fair: let both Jews and Palestinians have a “right of return” and instant citizenship (a favor now granted only to Jews).

In this scenario, Palestinians would number about 8 million, Jews about 5 million, which would make the Jews a significant minority retaining a lot of electoral clout.

Would these people be able to govern themselves without a bloodbath? I think it’s possible, if rational voices can be heard from both sides, calling for a state that respects minority and religious rights.

Having said that, I still hold the opinion that the USA should steer clear of the whole bloody mess. It’s not our business to choose sides in a conflict in which both sides obviously have a lot of explaining to do. Ron Paul is the only presidential candidate who takes this eminently prudent and reasoned position.

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By blafo, July 25, 2007 at 1:28 pm Link to this comment

#89451 by Cliff on 7/25 at 11:47 am
Why should Israel act differently than Islamic conquerers?

Israel should act differently than Islamic conquerors because it is the right thing to do, the Godly thing to do, the enlightened thing to do, and the only thing to do that could ACTUALLY bring peace.

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By Charles Barton, July 25, 2007 at 1:27 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Berry Lando claims that it is only a myth invented by the Israelisthat the Palestinians were told by their leaders to leave in 1948, and that they largely left of their own volition: 

Did the Israelis invent this story?  Not at all.  The story comes from numerous sources including the very Arab leaders who told the Palestinians to leave their homes.

Here is what 1948 Arab leaders actually said:

We will smash the country[Israel] with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down. - Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said

“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.”- Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49

The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce they rather preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town. This is in fact what they did.” - Jamal Husseini, Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee

The responsibility of the Arab leadership was noted by Arab observers:

“The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the ‘Zionist gangs’ very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile.”- George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee

The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper)

“The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in.”—Palestinian quoted by the Jordan daily Ad Difaa

“The Arab exodus from other villages was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews. -Yunes Ahmed Assad, refugee from the town of Deir Yassin, quoted by Al Urdun

Bishop Hakim, a Christian Palestinian also stated, “[The Arabs of Haifa] fled in spite of the fact that the Jewish authorities guaranteed their safety and rights as citizens of Israel.”

No less a figure than Mahmoud Abbas acknowledged in 1976:
“The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemmed to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable”.

Clearly Lando does not know what he is talking about.

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By Counselor1, July 25, 2007 at 1:10 pm Link to this comment

Should we not seek to do something positive about the future, for our own country and lessening danger of a wider war for all instead of raking over the past (that has been raked over a thousand times before to no agreement?)


Is the blogosphere going to let the mainstream media (MSM) get away without pinning down every single presidential candidate on what they would order, or allow on military advice, or forbid US forces to do to defend Israel from retaliation, if Israel were to make a preemptive attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities? Questions would be such as: “Against Muslim retaliation for a preemptive Israeli strike,  would you order, allow on advice, or forbid a) US ship launching of cruise missiles against land in any Muslim area, including Lebanon, Gaza, Syria or Iran? b) How about air strikes into any of those areas? c)How about introduction of US ground troops into any of those areas?  We have reason to believe Bush would thrust us all the way into any broader war. Don’t the American people have a right to know what each candidate would make us in for, in that case? Demand that the MSM ask these questions of every candidate!

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By blondie, July 25, 2007 at 12:57 pm Link to this comment

Hey Barry
Such an expert you are!  I remember you in the early 60’s enjoying the same ultra-priveleged life as I did myself.  That would be on the west coast of Canada in the unceded territory of the Coast Salish people.
First Nations, Aboriginal land claims, indigenous peoples’ rights, call it what you will…it is a much bigger issue and a problem that is as unresolved as the ownership of a tiny piece of real estate on a body of water modestly named the Middle of the Earth (Mediterranean Sea). 
What are your thoughts, Barry, on the ownership of the land where you grew up in such splendour?  And, how do you feel about the broken treaties back home?
What, in fact, is the difference between Israel and the Nass?
Cheers!

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By Cliff, July 25, 2007 at 12:47 pm Link to this comment

Firstly, I have read all the quotes and searched to see if the sources cited existed.  So far no luck.

Secondly,  Jews have been driven out of Germany, France, Poland, Hungary, Iran, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, etc, etc.  They did not constitute a dangerous fifth column.  Muslim Arabs, living in the Israel partition after 1948, when Israel was being attacked by Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, were a dangerous fifth column.

Thirdly, the whole waqf is conquered territory the Islam will not give back to the original residents.  Why should Israel act differently than Islamic conquerers?

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., July 25, 2007 at 11:59 am Link to this comment

“You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.” Abraham Lincoln

Let the word go out from this place. There will be a new order of truth in this world with the Internet. Lies will not stand up in the face of instant refutation. Let TRUTH set us all free. We must be free from the lies and distortions of religious and political fanatics. In the past it was possible to perpetrate a lie as truth. With modern storage and retrieval of information, instant knowledge and comparison, it is no longer possible to perpetrate a lie beyond the day it is written.

Now that we have the tools and the mental capacity: is it any longer believed that God favored Jews? While we are at it: is it true that a virgin girl conceived and bore a kid who grew up to be God? Now for George Bush, Tony Blair, and cohorts.

Who drove the Palestinian Arabs out of their homes, villages, and denied them the right of return? Who were the terrorists of Palestine?

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By tuantu, July 25, 2007 at 11:35 am Link to this comment

Reply to INHERIT THE WIND
I can’t read Arabic - only English and Chinese. I got Moshe Dayan quote from a Western source. I presumed it was from the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs -  but I can’t seem to find the file now. However, I am going to continue to search for it because I am curious myself. In the meantime,  while searching for the Dayan quote I found these interesting comments written by other Jews regarding the (Second) founding of the State of Israel:
“Prior to the Second Zionist Congress, Herzl sent Leo Motzkin on a tour of Palestine. One passage in Motzkin’s report includes this statement: ‘Completely accurate statistics about the number of inhabitants do not presently exist. One must admit that the density of the population does not give the visitor much cause for cheer. In whole stretches throughout the land one constantly comes across large Arab villages, and it is an established face that most fertile areas of our country are occupied by Arabs..’  Protocol of the Second Zionist Congress.    When Herzl himself visited Palestine he seemed to ignore the local residents almost completely. Ernst Pawel writes:
‘The account of this visionary’s journey through both past and future is notable for one conspicuous blind spot. As Amos Elan has pointed out, the trip…took him through at least a dozen Arab villages, and in Jaffa itself, Jews formed only 10% of the total population. Yet not once does he refer to the natives in his notes, nor do they ever seem to figure in his later reflections. In overlooking, in refusing to acknowledge their presence - and hence their humanity, Herzl both followed and reinforced a trend that was to have tragic consequences for Jews and Arabs alike.’
And this: “The Jews are an incurably bad people, a people always seeking it’s own benefits and wanting to enslave the world, a people which in spite of all its efforts to assimilate, still remains strange and hostile to the non-Jews. The Jew is the torchbearer of capitalism, exploitation, usury, and suppression. At the same time, he is also the yeast of history, upsetting and destroying all that is stable, the troublemaker incarnate. In short, the Jewish people is the curse of humanity.” Nahman Syrkin 1898, In: The Zionist Idea, pp 337
There are dozens of books written by Jews who participated in the Second founding of the State of Israel in 1947 that truthfully and honestly tell the history of modern Israel.  If you are really interested in the truth, which I do not believe you are, you can start with Chomsky and Finkelstein’s writings and their sources.
What is interesting is that you didn’t challenge the accuracy of Former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s remark that “We own America and America knows it.”  Nor did you inquire about the accuracy of the 18th century French philosopher Condorcet who wrote that because of the gullibility and stupidity of the vast majority of the French population a cunning minority (like the Jews) would be able to create an elite oligarchy behind a “democratic front” and thus indoctrinate and use them (the country) at will.
I do not think you are interested in an honest search for the truth.  I think you are interested in more important issues like ensuring that all the chains and all the tape you Israelis have managed (by working together with one goal in) to place around all of America’s politicians’ mouths and feet do not come loose and they someone finally manage to extricate themselves and free themselves (and the American people) from your servitude.

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By nahida, July 25, 2007 at 11:15 am Link to this comment

The Founding Fathers

http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id315.html

David Ben Gurion

Prime Minister of Israel
1949 - 1954,
1955 – 1963

“We must expel Arabs and take their places.”
—David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
—David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

“There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
—Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122

“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”
—David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”
—David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.”
—David Ben-Gurion 1938 (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth’s Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

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By nahida, July 25, 2007 at 11:13 am Link to this comment

The Founding fathers

Golda Meir

Prime Minister of Israel
1969 - 1974

“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people… It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.”
—Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

“How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.”
—Golda Meir, March 8, 1969

“Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen.”
—Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

“This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.”
—Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel
1974 - 1977,
1992 - 1995

“We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!”
—Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

“[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat.”
—Yitzhak Rabin (a “Prince of Peace” by Clinton’s standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen’s remarks to the Knesset’s foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

Menachem Begin

Prime Minister of Israel
1977 - 1983

“[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.”
—Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the ‘Beasts,”’ New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

“The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.”
—Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

Yizhak Shamir

Prime Minister of Israel
1983 - 1984,
1986 – 1992

“The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country.”
—Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

“The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It’s that simple.”
—Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

“(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.”
—Israeli Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

Source:
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id315.html

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By nahida, July 25, 2007 at 11:09 am Link to this comment

The Founding Fathers

http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id315.html

Benjamin Netanyahu

Prime Minister of Israel

1996 - 1999
“Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.”
-Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

Ehud Barak

Prime Minister of Israel
1999 – 2001

“The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more”....
—Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

“If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force….”
—Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

“I would have joined a terrorist organization.”
—Ehud Barak’s response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha’aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

Ariel Sharon

Prime Minister of Israel
2001 - 2006

“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”
—Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998

“Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours…Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”
—Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

“Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.”
—Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online.

Source:
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id315.html

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By Tony Wicher, July 25, 2007 at 11:04 am Link to this comment

I just want to add my voice to what many others on this thread have been saying:

It is time for Jews, who constitute the most powerful minority in the world, to stop with the “victim” mentality. The victims have become the victimizers. Jews should be held to the same standards as everyone else. They once deserved special protection, but they no longer do. That means the end of American support, the end of Zionism, and the end of Israel as a “Jewish state”.  These things will occur naturally if the United States changes its present policy of enabling Zionism. Zionists are trying to get a grip on the American political process to prevent this from happening. Americans must fight this while at the same time opposing and not giving aid and comfort to anti-Semites, who do exist and whose numbers are growing by leaps and bounds precisely because of morally unsustainable Zionist policies. Zionism and fascism have American democracy in a pincers movement. They sustain and feed each other. It is a perilous and narrow path that we must walk to defeat both anti-democratic forces and preserve our democracy.

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By Allan Wheeler, July 25, 2007 at 9:15 am Link to this comment

Just a suggestion: If you want to start a movement to educate people about our dangerous policy of support for Israel, concentrate on the middle of this country. Leave the edges and big cities until you have developed a strong base in the interior. Slowly, opinion is beginning to shift. Slowly, it is becoming possible to discuss this issue. Slowly. Do we have the time?

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By Robert, July 25, 2007 at 9:01 am Link to this comment

July 25, 2007

Bush Speechwriter Calls for Attack on Syria

Gerson’s Crusade Against “Low-Hanging Fruit”

By GARY LEUPP

“Neocon officials in the Defense Department call them “low-hanging fruit”—- as though countries were produce ripe for picking and eating. The term refers to nations targeted for regime change that might be achieved with minimal strain, at least when compared with the effort needed to topple the regime in Iran. Some neocons are beginning to concede that the effort might not be feasible at this time (not that they would be climbing the tree and plucking the fruit; they’d stand below advising on how it should be done). They’re advocating instead that the Bush administration move soon against Syria.

From late 2003 to late 2005 it looked to me as though Syria would be the next “Terror War” target, largely because of Bush’s rhetoric, Israeli aggression against Syria and the Israeli propaganda campaign against Syria (suggesting that the missing weapons of mass destruction in Iraq had been transported over the border into the Arab state). But then the Israeli government and Lobby urged the Bush administration to focus its energies on attacking Iran. (Asked by the administration for suggestions for a new leader in Syria to be installed after the toppling of Bashar al-Assad, the Israelis said they couldn’t think of one. This position has been repeated as recently as March 2007.) In any case the Israeli government sees Iran as the “existential threat” to itself, Syria more of an irritation.

But the advocated Iran attack has been long-delayed. The neocons have lost some influence, although they remain highly dangerous and influential. Rapid Islamophobes like Elliott Abrams, David Wurmser, Eric Edelman and Eliot Cohen retain their posts, while neocon ideologues such as Bill Kristol enjoy access to cable TV audiences and readers of op-ed pieces in the most widely-read newspapers. The latter very often articulate the view of Vice President Cheney’s circle. Cheney is known to be frustrated at the postponement of the planned Iran attack.

In this context, former Bush speechwriter and Christian rightist Michael Gerson published an op-ed in the Washington Post last Friday calling for an attack on Syria to stop its alleged support for the resistance in Iraq. He revives the horticultural metaphor. “Syria. . . . is what one former administration official calls ‘lower-hanging fruit,’” Gerson writes, adding “Syria’s Baathist regime provides a base of operations for its Iraqi Baathist comrades involved in the Sunni insurgency.” He immediately adds, “Suicide bombers from Saudi Arabia and North Africa arrive by plane in Damascus, and, with the help of facilitators, some 50 to 80 cross into Iraq each month. The Syrians say they lack the ability to stop them; what they lack is the intention.” He calls for “forceful action against Syria’s Ho Chi Minh Trail of terrorists.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp07252007.html

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By Neoconned, July 25, 2007 at 8:26 am Link to this comment
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#89358 by Non Credo on 7/25 at 6:49 am

They are not mindless robots.  They are a cut above 6 billion members of humanity, as decreed by the Almighty God. 

The problem arises when the rest of us scum don’t realize they are extra special, with moral dispensations as sanctioned from heaven.

(If I kiss their ass long enough, they may deem not to label me anti-semitic, which, as we all know, is the Mark Of CAIN!!!)

I tremble, Yes, tremble, I say, before their holiness.

Kneel before Zod!

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By nahida, July 25, 2007 at 7:44 am Link to this comment

Life on hold


With my roots uprooted
Swinging like a pendulum
Exile…home… exile… home…exile…

Where my culture is not celebrated
But threatened with extinction

Torn between two paradoxical worlds
My tortured soul exists
In a state of permanent suspension

Life on hold

With my heart torn apart
I dangle in between the realms of
Earth… heaven… earth… heaven… earth…

My body is here but my soul is far away
Chasing my beloved’s mirage
I am endangered of annihilation

Dwindling between two impossible worlds
My tormented core wavers
In a state of permanent suspension

Life on hold

With my memory shredded into pieces
I hang in the hue of non-existence
Past… future… past… future… past…

My brain is working
But my mind has gone missing
I am forcibly pushed towards insanity

Worn out between two dream worlds
My agonized being lingers
In a cosmos of thirteen dimensions
In a state of permanent suspension

Life on hold

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By stephen, July 25, 2007 at 5:37 am Link to this comment
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Sorry to say it, but these Zionists learned a hard lesson from the Nazi’s and have tailored that very same methodology to suit their own needs in Israel. The ‘bad’ Nazi’s introduced industrialization, propaganda, military and political strategy on a scale never seen before in pre-WW2 Germany. Every successful modern country still uses these techniques today.

Have you driven a car lately? Do you believe what you seen on the news?
Over half of Americans polled seem to think that Saddam flew planes into the Trade Towers, still! “Shock and Awe” or “Blitzkrieg”?

The US and Britain took the worst of the worst troublemaking Zionists and gave them guns and a Carte Blanche to do as they please in 1948. How else would you get them out of your country? Give them one of their own.

Peace is easier to win than war. These self-serving leaders in Israel/Palestine/United States/Britain will die off eventually, and a younger, more educated and liberal minded generation will move in and make the entire Middle East a peaceful place once again. I for one can’t wait

Time will end their tyranny.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 25, 2007 at 4:52 am Link to this comment
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As Israeli Gen. Moshe Dayan once clearly revealed: “The declaration of the State of Israel was at the expense of ethnically cleansing 513 Palestinians villages, creating over 700,000 Palestinians refugees, and expropriating their lands, homes and businesses in 78% of Palestine…There is not one single place built in this country (Israel) that did not have a former population (of Arabs).”

************

Tuantu: I challenge the provenance of this statement.  I expect it was posted in an Arab propaganda site and you quoted without ever challenging its veracity.  It is clearly a forgery, as ANYONE who reads it clearly and critically can detect.

Go ahead, ask me why.

Frank Cajon: You posted a clear and cogent commentary that criticizes BOTH sides intelligently and legitimately.  Your punishment for that sin? You’ve been flamed.  That’s because the facts and logic you present destroy the myths and fantasies of the “destroy Israel” crowd. 

Notice how GodSend is DROOLING with pleasure at the thought of Soviet mega-ton thermo-nuclear warhead eradicating Israel. He’s out-and-out coming in his pants at the thought of the deaths of 5.5 million people.  And this asshole believes that is “God’s Will”!

How can you intelligently discuss anything with someone like that?

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By cyrena, July 25, 2007 at 2:03 am Link to this comment

Comment #89309 by tuantu on 7/25 at 12:25 am


•  ….”Their one-sided groundless preference for the Jews is terrible and endangers their own nation’s hapless citizens.  If America and England believe in justice and morality they must find the courage and intelligence to stop the funding of Israel’s crimes against humanity.”…

Tuantu,

Thanks for the excellent post. Believe it or not, this is pretty much what we’ve been trying to get over on this truth-site. But, it gets really ideological, and pretty much crazy when we try to approach people who are in denial, for whatever the reasons.

Still, this is the crux of our security problem, here in the West, as well as the Israelis in their own state. As long as We continue to so blindly support all of the rouge-style behavior that Israel has always engaged in, with her 60-year old trend of human rights violations, we will keep ourselves vulnerable to attack.

That leaves us to wonder if American and England REALLY DO believe in justice and morality. I’d like to believe that most of us still do, but the leadership has proven that these are not their concerns, and so they will need to be convinced that it doesn’t matter what they want, (the oil and US imperial hegemony in the ME) but rather what “we the people” want.

There also is no courage or intelligence in our current leadership, and even our new Congress has failed to show much of either, although there are some exceptions.

Meantime, until we can stop this blind support for Israel’s crimes against humanity, and STOP COMMITTING THE SAME – OUSELVES, we are going to continue to be vulnerable.

Since the masses seem as you describe, (pretty oblivious to the whole thing)I don’t know how successful we might be. We’re trying. I think the Brits have a better bead on it than we do here in America, (at least they DO have a “free press”)but, we keep trying to get folks educated, any way we can.

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By tuantu, July 25, 2007 at 1:25 am Link to this comment

If America, England or another of the other so-called “civilized” (which implies “clearheaded”) nations of the world were really sincere about finding a just solution to the problem in the Middle East and reducing the problem of Muslim terrorism around the world as they claim they are, all they would have to do is to stop the awful preference of Jews over the guiltless Arabs and the Palestinians. Their one-sided groundless preference for the Jews is terrible and endangers their own nation’s hapless citizens.  If America and England believe in justice and morality they must find the courage and intelligence to stop the funding of Israel’s crimes against humanity.
America must stop allowing American Jews with dual citizenship to govern their country if they truly want America to continue it’s “Manifest Destiny.” If, as sociologist’s claim,  a collective attitude is comparable to a religion, then America,  England, the E. U. and a majority of the UN nations have become so smitten with a devotion to and a worship of Israel that renders them powerless and has no parallel in the history of the world. And the most horrible truth about this is that the West’s total devotion to the Jews has NO moral or ethical underpinning.  As Israeli Gen. Moshe Dayan once clearly revealed: “The declaration of the State of Israel was at the expense of ethnically cleansing 513 Palestinians villages, creating over 700,000 Palestinians refugees, and expropriating their lands, homes and businesses in 78% of Palestine…There is not one single place built in this country (Israel) that did not have a former population (of Arabs).”
Don’t these facts register anyplace in Bush or Blair’s - and other’s - minds?  In 2006, before his stroke, Ariel Sharon articulated that “We (Israel) owns America and America knows it.”  I looked the word “own” up in the dictionary. According to the English Dictionary “Own” means: “to make one’’s own, to seize, win, gain; to adopt as one’’s own, to possess; to have as one’’s function or business.”  Is there any politician or leader or celebrity in America who cares that they are “owned”?? Perhaps all the goyim politicians in America and England(and elsewhere) are so completely “owned” that they can’t allow themselves to even think about Israel’s total owner ship of America and a just solution to continued conflict there.  It seems only Jews in America such as Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky have enough of the character, intelligence and backbone needed to care enough about injustice and the corruption of reality to speak out truthfully about the dreadful condition of the world today. It is obvious to many familiar with the problem that Israel does indeed own of America. But, it seems, only a few honest Jews are able to articulate the honest reality. Clearheaded people like the 17th century French sociologist-philosopher Condorcet have spoken out and declared that the because of the gullibility and stupidity of the vast majority of the population a cunning minority would be able to create an elite oligarchy behind a “democratic front” and thus indoctrinate and use them at will.  But the hopelessly unconscious American and British herd pays no attention and just keep grazing. All they are interested in it seems is the food in front of their faces.  The majority of the herd it seems is more concerned with having something to eat than with freedom and justice in the Middle East. The American and English herd are too stupid to realize they are “owned” and thus suffers pointlessly for this lack of intelligence and/or courage.

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By bin jagged, July 25, 2007 at 12:05 am Link to this comment
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frank cajon writes:

“...the Nation State of Isreal was created by the UN Security Council in the wake of the British Mandate, three separate Islamic countries immediately went to war with the Israelis rather than settle for the lands deemed their share. As has been the trend in that area of the world, they lost and ended up with less territory than they started with, which has been known to happen when you lose a war you start.”

Amazingly, every fact in these sentences is wrong.

UN resolution 181 (Nov 1947), the partition plan, was a General Assembly resolution, not a Security Council resolution.  In any case, it didn’t “create” Israel.  Israel unilaterally declared it’s own existence months later on May 15, 1948, a day on which the UN took no action.  The UN didn’t even recognize Israel until Nov 1948, when it did so supposedly ON CONDITION that Israel accept resolution 194, which declared the Palestinian refugees’ right to return.  The UN was basically swindled by Israel there.  So much for the “UN created Israel” myth.

The fighting between Jews and Arabs in Palestine started in late 1947.  At first it was mostly static.  That changed in April 1948 when Zionist militias advanced, took territory, and committed many of the massacres driving out Arab residents, referred to in the article. This was before Israel declared its independence and before the military intervention of other Arab states starting on May 15.  It’s one-sided at best to say the Arab states started the war; they intervened in a war that was already going on.  With the exception, of the Egyptians, they essentially didn’t even enter territory designated by the UN for the Jewish state.

There were 5 Arab states (not to mention the Palestinian Arabs) that intervened militarily, so why say 3?  It also makes little historical sense to call them “Islamic” states.  They had secular governments, and in the case of Lebanon and the Palestinians, a substantial Christian population.

Egypt and Jordan ended up with more territory than they started with (namely Gaza and the West Bank, respectively).  No Arab State (aside from the proposed Palestinian state, of course) lost territory.

It’s amazing how people can comment when they have their facts so abysmally wrong.

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By GodSend, July 24, 2007 at 11:38 pm Link to this comment

FC:

NO, don’t get over it! Israel is a sly and rogue State with nukes and the madness to use them when they decide their existence is threatened (even if it isn’t!). Somebody had better neutralize the Israeli government madmen and their nukes - at least the ones waiting in their embassies!

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By Frank Cajon, July 24, 2007 at 9:44 pm Link to this comment

Quite an article, dredging up a nearly 60-year-old war to come up with a basis for charging Israelis with ‘ethnic cleaning’. Lando uses the pretzel logic that Bush/Cheney use in their politics of fear. Aside from the fact that the Nation State of Isreal was created by the UN Security Council in the wake of the British Mandate, three separate Islamic countries immediately went to war with the Israelis rather than settle for the lands deemed their share. As has been the trend in that area of the world, they lost and ended up with less territory than they started with, which has been known to happen when you lose a war you start.
You know Lando is really stretching when he invokes Yasur Arafat in an article about Israel crowding out Palestinians and ethnic cleansing, the same guy who recruited suicided bombers from young Palestinians to kill civilians in Isreali markets and theatres-the Palestinian version of ethnic cleansing, I suppose.
Isreal is by no means admirable or blameless in this mess. It is a US-armed, militarist, unyielding, violent country that brandishes its nuclear capability and does not give ground. A lot of that has to do with the fact that in less than 40 years of existence it has been invaded numerous times and battled the Islamic bordering countries back each time. Early this year, their ruthlessness was clearly evident in the invasion of southern Lebanon, where they took out many civilians. Why? Because the Hamas, a terrorist organization financed by Iran and using civilian neighborhoods as shields, was shelling their cities. Not a good enough excuse for the collateral damage in my book. Now, Lebanon is dealing with the vermin themselves, like they should have all along. I don’t care for crusaders with wild-eyed sagas of how they are going to invade and drive out the the oppressors, which is why I don’t buy anything Bush/Cheney has to say. Or Hamas.
The Palestinians, instead of trying to live along side of the Israelis, have elected a majority of these Hamas terrorists to their government, they kill one another in power struggles for the right to conduct guerilla warfare with the Israelis, and have for years been slaughtering Israeli civilians and themselves with suicide punchouts. Has an Israeli yet snuck into a Palestinian marketplace and detonated himself to kill 20 Palestinians?
There is no denying the fact that the Palestinians are for the most part living in destitution, except the Hamas and Fatah gunmen, who have plenty of cash for weapons. I always wonder why it serves the purpose of the other Islamic countries so much to live in such decadent wealth as the UAE, Saudi Arabia, and even Jordan and Syria by comparison, with no help going to the Palestinians who don’t shoot guns. Maybe it is best for Syria or the Saudis if they are kept angry, and poor, and ripe for recruitment as Hamas killers, whose mission is every bit as much an ethnic cleansing as any imagined by this article. Let’s get real. Both sides are at fault, and if you aren’t willing to see that, there is no hope for ever making it any better. And, as I have said many times in a short while on this board: blaming all of the world’s problems on a Zionist conspiracy is an Old Left relic idea from the ‘60s. It doesn’t really work any more, for me any way. Yeah, Israel has the bomb, and they kick ass. Get over it.

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By jbart, July 24, 2007 at 9:26 pm Link to this comment
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#89264 by Lefty on 7/24 at 7:21 pm
Brilliant, profound, statesmanlike, etc., etc. . . .  And when the arabs squatters occupying Israeli land in gaza and the west bank are pushed out of Israel, there will finally be the blessed peace all of you islamist, fundamentalist, terrorist, suicide bombing, sympathizing shit-for-brain assholes have been whining for.

Until then, let them eat sand!


You are definitely a trip !! Arab Squatters? Where’s your effin history asshole? Whose(historically) squatting on who, babe? Are you semetic? Or maybe European? FYI - Those Arab squatters were never Europeans, only semetics (a.k.a.  at home). Only the newly re-located(1948, or so)Israeli’s were “squatters”,per se. Re; Israeli land in Gaza & the West Bank….check out the “lines” set by the Brittish & U.N. at the time of the “creation of Israel”. Gaza & the West Bank were never part of the plan. Through military agression (with aid from the good ole U S of A)Israel “sucessfully expanded” the original physical parameters set for the nation of Israel to “encompass” those areas. But don’t do a diservice to that feat by calling it “Israeli lands. Shouldn’t be, but is. Still, shouldn’t be, asshole. Not then, not now. And lastly…which is my favorite part… a chance to call YOU OUT !!! BTW…you never got back to me after my last attack on you & your character.  Why not?  I’m not worth the effort?  Or maybe I hit a “button”? So, how’s your eyesight?  Got fallen arches? Any recessive genes you’re embarassed to admit to?  If you stop being condenscending to people whose opinions differ from yours, maybe I’ll leave you alone to your physical/genenic shortfalls. What do you say, Lefty? R U willing to debate things from an objective (a.k.a, with a non-Jewish bias)?
For the sake of the site, I hope so. From a personal standpoint, however, I kinda like torturing your sorry ass.
BTW - to cyrena and the rest of you guys that create a true, and constructive environment for the discussion of change, I aplogize for my crude behaviour here. I truly enjoy the discussions that you guys engage in. I try to just read, and enjoy, but certain subjects (and the people who submit biased views) motivate me to speak up. I promise to just read and consider future subjects, as best as I can.

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By R, July 24, 2007 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Did they demand that the IRA accept Northern Ireland’s Right to Exist? Was Alija Izetbegovic forced to accept Republika Srpska’s Right to Exist? Hell, Republika Srpska’s Right to Exist is certainly not recognised by the Western powers as they threaten to destroy it constantly… That the Israelis and their sponsers demand this special treatment as a precondition for peace talks to even begin (along with the Palestinians surrendering every other card that they hold) should be recognised for what it is… intransigence.

International law recognises the rights of those under occupation to resist and that the violence of occupiers is illegitimate. The West however de-facto recognises Israel as sovereign over the occupied territories, only permitting Israel and its deputies among the Palestinians the recourse to violence… turning international law on its head. The idea of Hamas or the PLO using violence and only stopping when Israel stops its violence is of course forbidden… Israeli rights to use violence are absolute…

Hamas seems to be the only sane people in this whole sorry mess… they say “we stop violence when they stop violence, we recognise them when they recognise us”. Forget it, the “sane” world says.

Many Americans worship Israel. Senator Inhofe of Oklahoma said that lack of service to Israel caused the Sept. 11 2001 attacks and he was reelected and the media did not roast him alive for this “blame America” theory. The pillar of this belief is the claim that “He who blesses them shall be blessed and he who curses them shall be cursed”. They even claim the fall of the British Empire was caused by its war with Zionists, causing God’s wrath.

They claim that God judges people and entire nations based on their opinion of Israel…

These people think that the war on Iraq, and they know it’s for Israel, would cause God to bless America. It would clearly cause God to see to it that a major city in the US would not experience near destruction by hurricane…

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By drumstick, July 24, 2007 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment

It seems to me that as long as everyone focuses on their differences instead of their commonalities, there will never be peace in the region.  The real solution is to merge Israel and Palestine into a single multi-ethnic, multicultural and multi-religious county called “HolyLand” with Jerusalem as the capitol. 

But that would mean that Zionists would have to give up on the dream of a “Jewish” state and Islamisists would have to give up on the idea of “Muslim homelands”.

The idea of single ethnic and religious “homelands” went out of fashion in 1945, after the Nazi dream of a “German homeland” was exposed for the nightmare it was.

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By Neoconned, July 24, 2007 at 5:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The more deliberately obtuse and blinkered people like Lefty and Lilmamnzer and their ilk are, the more it annoys every one of us goyim. 

We all know to be jewish is extra special.  But this duel tactic of self pity and victimhood on one side and some pretty odious disingenuous gangster tactics on the other, makes for peculiar kind of obnoxious individual.

One individual spoke out to pre-empt such a backlash against these Israel/Aipac/ADL bigots.  However, even Norman Finkelstein was silenced by that Achillies in mortal form, namely, Alan Dershowitz.

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By Hiram, July 24, 2007 at 5:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Whoa. I have finally seen the light. GodSend and Non Credo have convinced me that this tiny remnant of a people are more dangerous to the world than all of Islam. I apologize for my former blindness and dedicate my life, shoulder to shoulder with you, to eradicate the Zionist state so no Arab country can point over it’s border and say, “That’s what they call freedom.”

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By ardee, July 24, 2007 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

For ITW, Jfior, NonCredo,Neoconned, Cyrena and any other rational human I might have left out,

It is useless to respond to those who seek out any article concerning Israel or mentions the word Arab in order to spew hatred both vile and intellectually ridiculous. We see the same names appear whenever the blood is in the water, and, like the sharks that respond to such a scent, are unreasoning, machine like in their silly and baseless villifications, whether of Israel or of 1.4 billion muslims, and undeserving of any respectful responses.

This forum has some good folks in attendance, people who are dedicated to finding truths, to expressing ideas and ideals and to responding to those expressed by others with reasonable and thoughtful postings.

Conversely this forum, as do most of the them not private and by invitation only, finds some who should really truly be ignored, what good is stepping in a steaming pile of dog leavings when it is so much easier to walk around the pile and to scroll past the ravings?

It is almost painful to watch a well crafted and thoughtful post earn the lunatic or sophomoric responses one reads here, and always from the usual sources…..I do not tell folks what to do, but I much prefer to ignore them.

I will not return here and, in the future will ignore any such topic as this one…sad but necesary for me.

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By tsaoyen, July 24, 2007 at 3:55 pm Link to this comment

Barry Lando ends his fine report “Israel’s Primal Myth” with this comment: “much more remarkable is how successful the Israelis have been convincing American leaders to play along with their founding myth.” The Jews “convinced them” - America’s politicians -  by eliminating and ending the career of any who opposed them and the State of Israel’s objective to reclaim the Holy Land of Israel at the expense of millions of innocent Palestinians after the Romans had forcibly thrown them out of Judea 2,000 years earlier. The Romans thought of them as a “vile people.” Marcus Aurelius while passing through Judea declared that the Jews are a “stinking and tumultuous people.” The Roman historian Tacitus thought that the religion Judaism was “tasteless and mean.”  In the late 1700s the French philosopher-sociologist Condorcet asserted that the gullibility and stupidity of the vast majority of the population could enable a cunning minority to indoctrinate them at will and so create an elite oligarchy behind a ‘democratic front.’ In 1972 when Sen William Fulbright declared that the United States was “subservient” to Israel and bore “a very great share of the responsibility for the continuation of Middle East violence.” Fulbright added that “The Israelis control politics in Congress and in the Senate.”  For daring to speak out, Jewish Americans voted together to kick Fulbright out of the Senate.  In confirming that AIPAC was responsible for Fulbright’s defeat at the polls, a former head of AIPAC boasted: “The Jews in America gathered to oust Senator Charles Percy and the (other) American politicians got the message.”  This is how Israel has convinced all of America’s leaders and all of its politicians to play along with them.
One of the main reasons why the Jews and AIPAC are so successful and powerful is because people are inclined to pity and hence any group that can elicit that response and direct it toward themselves increases their chance of being effective. Hence people such as Norman Finkelstein have to be destroyed because his books expose how the Jews use the Holocaust to expropriate monies and also expose the injustices that Israel has done to the guitless Palestinian people.
The famous Russian novelist Dostoevsky said this of the Jews: “They would have you believe that they do not rule over Europe, that they do not manage….the politics, the internal affairs, the moral life of the United States.”  And this was the political reality in America in 1876, almost 100 years before the appearance of AIPAC!!  Immanuel Kant, one of the world’s greatest philosophers, believed this about the Jews: “All their talents and skills revolve around stratagems and low cunning….They are a nation of swindlers.”

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By GodSend, July 24, 2007 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment

PS to hiram:

I will admit, however, that Israel is indeed ‘tiny’ when considering the blast radius of a single, Russian-made, multiple nuclear warhead-equipped ICBM or sub-delivered missile! It’s also ‘tiny’ when considering the combined destructive power of ‘accidentally’ detonated, Israel-based nukes, stashed away in Dimona and other places. I guess ‘tiny’ is a relative word. wink

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By GodSend, July 24, 2007 at 1:58 pm Link to this comment

hiram:

You mean ‘tiny Israel’ with the arsenal of about 400+ proliferated and clandestine nukes, forward-deployed to the USA and European capitals (Samson Option and Nuclear Blackmail), 5 attack subs (nuclear-missile capable) bought at bargain-basement prices from Germany and God-knows how many tactical and mini-nukes?! How about the ‘tiny Israel’ IDF and IAF military, equipped with the latest US military technology and equipment? Did I mention cluster bombs to shower on their Arab neighbor civilians, including women and children? Poor helpless tiny Israel, huh???! wink

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By hiram, July 24, 2007 at 12:48 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hey Non Credo, your creed is showing. Everything you say about Israel can be more aptly said about the majority of nations on the Arabian peninsula. Why is it you save your scorn for tiny Israel and give the nations who want to bring down the west and bring their sharia here a pass?

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By Neoconned, July 24, 2007 at 10:26 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Lefty Said:

Arab muslims are too stupid and primitive to integrate with modern man.  Putative palestinians are too stupid and primitive to integrate with other arabs.

———————————

Is this the voice of NAZI Israel, or what?

Apart from Arabs and Muslims, is there anyone else on your primitive check list?

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By Inherit The Wind, July 24, 2007 at 9:44 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Lefty on 7/24 at 7:50 am
(511 comments total)

Arab muslims are too stupid and primitive to integrate with modern man.  Putative palestinians are too stupid and primitive to integrate with other arabs.  Americans who support islamist, fundamentalist, terrorist, arab, muslim suicide bombers are too stupid to vote.

*****************

I’m sorry, Lefty, but this is as bigoted and racist as the crap GodSend puts out about Jews.

The fact that I am a supporter of Israel’s right to exist, and right not to be forced to commit suicide does NOT mean I even begin to share your views above.  I think they are wrong and immoral.

What I DO accept is that currently there is NO Arab Moslem state that is a Western Democracy.  There are, however, Moslem states that are democratic—the elections in Turkey prove that.  I also believe that if the Syrians and Hezbollah could be purged from Lebanon, than than tormented nation would stand, like Israel, as a lighthouse in the darkness of tyranny in that part of the world.

I also wonder if what we are seeing is a) innate to Islam or b) the fact that Islam is now where Christianity was in 1400 AD—and is acting similarly or c) A weird concurrance of events has led to the rise of fanatacism or d) they are no different than other fanatics in other religions—it was only in the 90’s that “christian” right-wing terrorists were setting off bombs in the US, or the 80’s when General Sharon was engaging in the moral equivalent of terrorism.

I have worked with Arabs and found them to be the same as everyone else—and celebrated with them when they became American citizens.

I can see and criticise the problems and current inability of Palestinians to keep from killing each other without believing them inherently stupid.  Are they any different than the Yugoslavs or Northern Irish, so filled with hate and power-hungry that morality is lost?  I don’t think so!

Do I approve of the Saudi or Syrian tyrants? Hell no! I think they are monsters, just smoother about it than Saddam Hussein.

I’m no “Arab Lover”—but I’m no Arab hater either.  I do HATE their governments, their organizations, and the sheeplike way people refuse to oppose the terrorists, and even support them.

I’ll STILL get flamed for this by the Axis of Israel-haters, and all my words will be twisted to make it sound like I said something else.  It’s inevitable…

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By Neoconned, July 24, 2007 at 8:56 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#89090 by Lefty on 7/24 at 7:50 am

Are you wearing your Swastika???

So really, you are no better than Hitler then are you with that comment.

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By weather, July 24, 2007 at 5:05 am Link to this comment

Israel makes their problem, our problem.

Asks to pay for it and then has the manipulating and deceitful balls to Lie about it, like they’re doing us a big favor.

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By Hiram, July 24, 2007 at 4:58 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The crux of the article is there will be no peace until Palestinians are allowed to invade Israel and this ought to be allowed because of Israeli abuses in 1948. The implication is – let them in and there will be peace. I don’t think even Jimmy Carter could believe this nonsense.
As for abuses – there are enough from both sides to spread blame equally.
Europe, Africa, Asia, and countries around the world have welcomed Islam into their midst’s and are paying in blood.
Hitler told us what he intended and did his best to succeed. The world dithered and paid a terrible price.
Islam is telling the world what it intends. Anyone with a computer can hear their words and watch videos of their deeds.
But this is less important than any action those terrible Israelis take. I smell prejudice and we all had better stop dithering.
I repeat from my previous post –
“The real reason Muslim Arabs hate Israel is because it teaches that with collective hard work a decent egalitarian society with freedom even for women can be achieved. But in such a society the ayatollahs and the imams and the sheiks and the effendis have no power and Islam can’t have that.”
With decent leadership all of Arabia could be as green as Israel but it isn’t and that’s probably Israel’s fault.

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