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Israel’s Primal Myth: A Barrier to Peace

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Posted on Jul 21, 2007
bombed out
AP Photo/Mohammed Zaatari

Palestinian refugees look over the rubble of a bombed-out house, following an Israeli strike, at the Ein el-Hilweh Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon last August.

By Barry Lando

Forget about Hamas, the wall, Gaza and the occupied territories. There can be no peace in the Middle East until Israel and the Palestinians deal with one key issue: the Palestinian demand that Israel recognize their right of return.  That demand is based on the Arab charge that the Zionist state created the refugee problem in the war of 1948-49 by a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing. It’s an accusation that Israel’s leaders have consistently rejected. Jewish soldiers could never commit such crimes. It was the Arabs themselves, they say, who created the refugees. 

It has become increasingly evident, however, that the Israeli position is, in fact, a self-serving myth created when the Jewish state was born, perpetuated ever since by the country’s leaders and still blandly accepted by Washington.

The myth goes like this: In 1948, when the Arabs attacked the newly declared state of Israel, the Arab population fled by the hundreds of thousands.  They left not because of attacks by Israeli soldiers but because of the calls of their own Arab leaders, who guaranteed them a speedy return once the Arab armies had triumphed over the upstart Jewish state. Indeed, they fled despite the attempts of many Israelis—as was movingly portrayed in the film “Exodus”—to convince their Palestinian neighbors to remain. Why should such treacherous people have the right to return? Not to mention the fact that their return by the millions would spell the end of Israel as a Jewish state.

This is the story that Israel’s leaders and Jews throughout the Diaspora have clung to for more than half a century. But since the early 1990s a new generation of Israeli historians and investigative journalists—drawing on formerly classified documents as well as recollections of Israeli leaders of the War of Independence—has demolished the traditional Israeli position.

According to their research, the Palestinians fled their villages not in response to a call from Arab leaders but because of a concerted campaign of terror—including massacres and rape—perpetrated by military units of the newly declared Israeli state.

As Gideon Levy, a leading columnist from Haaretz, put it, “1948 was Israel’s finest hour, the culmination of a mad dream: the formation of an independent Jewish state.” At the same time he declared, “it was our darkest hour, in which we committed war crimes on a large scale. And did so in all good conscience.”

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The key point, often overlooked, is that in 1948,
Resolution 181 of the U.N. General Assembly didn’t just call for the creation of the single state of Israel from the British mandate of Palestine. In fact, it recommended dividing Palestine into two separate countries—one predominately Arab, the other Jewish—to be joined by an economic union. 

According to Sylvain Cypel, a leading correspondent for Le Monde, the full version of that U.N. resolution was never published in its entirety in Hebrew. The reason for that may be simple. From the beginning Israel’s future leaders were determined that the Jewish state, carved out of the British mandate, would be just a first step toward the eventual takeover of all the land of Palestine. As David Ben Gurion, who would become Israel’s first prime minister, confided to Labor Party members in 1941, “As soon as we gain power, once our state is established we’ll annul [the partition] and will spread out over all the territory of Israel.”

There was, however, an obvious demographic hitch to such ambitions. If the Palestinians were allowed to remain on their lands, their numbers would overwhelm the Jews—the Jewish state would be stillborn. In fact, according to
Benny Morris, one of the first of the new Israeli historians, European Zionist leaders had secretly discussed plans for transferring the Arab population out of Palestine as far back as 1937 in Zurich. They had few illusions that the relocation of up to 500,000 Arabs could be peacefully achieved. “It is hard to imagine a transfer without recourse to force,” Ben Gurion later wrote in 1941.

Such blunt talk was for internal use only. Outwardly, a different myth was already being prepared. “They lied, oh, how they lied,” thundered Gideon Levy. “The Arabs were always the bad guys, and we were the just, absolute, and sole victims. That’s what we’ve been told.”

Indeed, after thoroughly researching Israeli archives, Morris found that not only was there no evidence that Arab leaders had called upon their people to flee in 1948-49, but that records revealed exactly the opposite: “In no case did a Palestinian population abandon its homes before an attack.” To the contrary, Israeli intelligence services had actually intercepted calls from Arab leaders asking Palestinians either to remain in their homes or to return if they had already fled.

Morris and other Israeli historians concluded that the Palestinians’ flight was—as the Arabs had long claimed—the result of a purposeful policy of Israeli forces, whose communiqués at the time spoke openly of “cleansing” or “purifying” the conquered Arab villages.

According to Gen. Yigal Allon, in May 12, 1948, as his men approached each Arab town, they tossed in tracts with the message in Arabic, “if you don’t flee immediately, you will all be slaughtered, your daughters will be raped.” Those were not empty threats. 

“The reality,” writes Cypel in his newly published book,
“Walled,” “is that the expulsion was desired, coordinated, and accomplished by systematic atrocities against, and killing of, civilians, with town properties razed on order (at first on a very unequal fashion from one area to another), and that nearly half of this expulsion was carried out even before the Arab states attacked Israel.”

Another Israeli historian, Gail Ehrlich, concluded that a dozen massacres of more than 50 victims each were committed during Israel’s War of Independence, apart from about 100 killings of smaller groups and individuals.  He described a “conspiracy of silence” surrounding those massacres, which were carried out by elite Israel troops and continued even after the creation of the state of Israel. 

“When the first expulsions were undertaken no local officer received an order to stop them,” says Cypel, who lived for 12 years in Israel and served in the army. “Everyone understood from then on what direction was to be followed, without any need for an explicit formulation.”

In 2004, Benny Morris wrote a new study concluding there had been far more “ethnic cleansing”—far more massacres and rapes than he had originally thought. The Israeli fighters had been given explicit orders “to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves.” In October 1948 in the Galilee, he said, “There was an unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion. This can’t be chance. It’s a pattern.” The orders for expulsion followed the visit of Prime Minister Ben Gurion to the headquarters of the units that undertook them.

According to Cypel, “Of the 875,000 Palestinians who found themselves in the expanded State of Israel at the end of the war, only 150,000 were left after the new expulsions following the cease fire with the Arab states. The others, that is 82 percent, were driven out, half of them by military force, the rest under the combined influence of threat, terror, and a deep feeling of abandonment and powerlessness.”

What sealed their fate was the decision of the Israeli government in 1948 to refuse to allow any Palestinians who had fled—no matter what their motive—to return to their homeland. At the same time, Israeli residence was offered to anyone in the world who could claim Jewish ancestry.

As if to destroy evidence of the Palestinian past, over the following years some 400 out of 500 Palestinian towns and ancestral villages were burned, dynamited and bulldozed, obliterated from the maps of Israel.

When the war in Kosovo broke out in 1999 an Israeli editorialist wryly wrote, “How lucky we were then there was no CNN in 1948 or the whole world would have been able to see in Palestine the images we are seeing today.”

The particular irony in all this is that it has traditionally been Israel demanding that other countries acknowledge their own past moral failings, specifically with regard to the Holocaust. There is, of course, no comparison between the horrors of the Shoah and the campaign of ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians. But that fact, say some Israeli writers, should not absolve the Zionist state from recognizing the less than glorious episodes in its own history.

“Maybe we had to act as we did,” says Gideon Levy. “Maybe there was no other way possible. But why lie all these years?  Why not say, ‘One right came up against another, one victim came up against another, and the result was inevitable. We had to drive them out. It was them or us.’ That would be much more persuasive than the lie. It would also lead to peace.”

Most Israelis are still unwilling to take that step. They cite the fear of being overwhelmed and annihilated by a flood of returning Palestinians. But most Palestinian and Arab leaders are under no illusions that Israel would ever open its doors to the 4 million refugees. What they ask from Israel is formal recognition of what actually happened in 1948-49—a recognition that would entail the Zionist state’s assuming some responsibility for finally resolving the refugee problem. The great majority of Palestinians, they acknowledge, would never return.

That was the kind of deal that Yasser Arafat sought in the ill-fated Camp David talks of 2000: a face-saving accord that would have allowed him to claim victory, even though he and everyone knew there would not be a real right of return. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, however, refused to cede any ground on the issue. The claim that Israel’s offer at the time was more than generous, says Cypel, was false—another case of Israeli myth making.

In fact, negotiations in following years between leading Israelis and Palestinians made it clear that a compromise on the issue was very much within reach.

Six months after the failed Camp David talks, for instance, at Taba, Barak’s former minister of justice, Yossi Beilin, submitted a draft proposal acknowledging that “the nascent state of Israel was drawn into the War of 1948-1949, which had its victims and led to suffering on both sides, including the displacement and expropriation of the civilian Palestinian population. ... Since that time the refugees have for decades lived without dignity, citizenship, or property.” Israel, he promised, “will be an active partner in closing this terrible chapter.” The proposal offered the refugees several options: return to Israel within limits to be agreed on, repatriation to a future Palestinian state,  or relocation in their current host countries or elsewhere, much of this to be underwritten by additional international financing.

“For the first time,” says Cypel, “Israel was admitting the illegitimacy of its demand that the Palestinians forget their own history.”

Speaking to his fellow Israelis, Beilin attempted to make them understand that “it is impossible to ask the Palestinians to give up the right of return. If we ask them, there will be no final record.” Ehud Barak, however, broke off the Taba talks.

Similar draft negotiations two years later in Geneva, which resulted in the Palestinians agreeing to limits on their right of return and Israel undertaking to compensate the heirs of Palestinians it had expelled, ended after the talks were denounced by Ariel Sharon.

Four years later, Israeli leaders and the great majority of its people still refuse to accept responsibility for the refugee problem. It boils down, says Cypel, to a question of appearances.

Despite Israel’s great accomplishments, he says, there is still widespread apprehension among Israelis about any questioning of the country’s self-image of moral superiority and perpetual victim of aggression. “The revelation of the slightest flaw, the revelation of the least stain, whether in the past or ... the present, seems to evoke such fear that it challenges not only the existence but the very legitimacy of this society in the eyes of a large majority of its own members.”

While Israel’s difficulty in dealing with its own past may thus make some sense, much more remarkable is how successful the Israelis have been in convincing American leaders to play along with their founding myth.


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By yourbestbuddy, August 30, 2007 at 10:56 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

wow bob wow,
i’ve been listening to you on “left, right, & center” for a couple years at least, and i agree with about half of what you say.
I had no idea that you are such a shithead.
Every one of the reporters you quote in this article is a notorious kook.

How can you defend the Palestinians who are a hateful, violent, homophobic, oppressive, undemocratic people who are hated by even their own brethren in Jordan, in Egypt, in Iraq, etc?

How can you be so contemptful of Israelis who are pushy, no doubt, but who value representative democracy (including representation of non-Jew Arab-Israelis), who have built the only place in the entire middle-east with gay-pride parades, the only place that treats women as equals, and which is surrounded by 23 nations that openly wish for God to drown its people in the Mediterranean?

And how do you explain the fact that 25% of Israeli citizens are non-Jewish Arab-Israelis, many of whom volunteer for the Israeli armed forces, and who enjoy a level of liberty that, for example, the Jews of Iran can only dream of?  Where did these 1.5 million Arab-Israelis come from?  Why were they not “cleansed” with the rest?  How did they manage to get Israeli citizenship, and lucrative jobs, and nice houses?  Why are they so damned happy to be there, in Israel, as citizens, as non-Jew Arab-Israeli citizens?

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By Robert, August 8, 2007 at 7:00 am Link to this comment

ISRAEL’S NAZI SYSTEMS AT WORK!

Palestinians are lined up to get to their town, schools, families, children, farms…etc…

THEY MUST GET THROUGH ISRAEL’S APARTHEID CONCRETE FENCE “CUTE NAME FOR IT” WHICH WILL TAKE SEVERAL HOURS OF HUMILIATION, VERBAL AND PHYSICAL ABUSE FROM ISRAEL’S BRUTAL IDF.

Click on the link to get the full picture and the story. Feel free to click on “NEXT” to see the others too:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/GeoPoints/Bethlehem_536/Picture_11179.html

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By Inherit The Wind, August 7, 2007 at 7:15 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Well, that’s how I saw it too until I began having my doubts a year ago. Maybe it’s that $750 billion military budget. I tell you that there are trillions unaccounted for and the money is just flowing out like a sieve. There could be a hundred billion going into black ops, all totally under the control of Cheney and his gang. There is no telling what can be done with that kind of unaccountable power, what kind of images can be created, what kind of falsehoods can be perpetrated.

Yeah. All we have to go on is that Cheney and Rove are really good at politics but totally and utterly incompetent at actually getting things done. Remember: when Cheney was CEO at Halliburton he was totally inept and made colossal blunders.  He’s mean, he’s vicious, but that doesn’t mean he could conceive or pull off the WTC attack.  And, again—too many downsides.  There could be far less risky ops that would have the same effect.

But there’s still no smoking gun linking the attack to anybody but Al Qaeda.  Heck, Here’s a PERFECT example—Look at the bumbling, inept way they tried to link the attacks to Saddam Hussein.  Only because of Fox Noise and the fact that most Americans are functionally illiterate (including congress critters) did that link get anywhere despite it being ludicrous.  With the kind of money and resources available, they SHOULD have been able to craft a link that was unimpeachable, even if it was phony as a $3 bill.  But they couldn’t.

My point? If someone can’t the side of a barn while standing inside, it’s an awfully long reach to accept that he could then function as a marksman.

Just so you know where I stand politically, no matter what else Johnson did, he can rot in hell forever for the Vietnam War as far as I am concerned. If he didn’t assassinate Kennedy, he just about assassinated the United States. We haven’t recovered yet and it doesn’t look like we ever will.

I’m not too far away from that POV…Because of Johnson’s excesses, he opened the door to Nixon—which laid the precedents for Reagan, which laid the precedents for President Mussolini.  The kicker was even LBJ knew that Viet Nam was a quagmire right from the start.

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By tuantu, August 7, 2007 at 6:45 am Link to this comment

WIND you certainly are a quick, busy beaver here at TRUTHDIG occupied as you are with plugging any breaches in your dam called America. It has taken a small but highly dedicated minority, all working together with a single goal in mind, many years to successfully “dam up” in order to control America and all those years of hard effort cannot be jeopardized. Don’t worry your dam is not going to break,  none of your water is going to escape. America is thoroughly damned up by all the busy beavers who believe they have really entered into a covenant with God and are thus obligated to damn the country up or suffer His repercussions.
I am not feculent - I am fecund and what I am trying to do is fecundate this hopelessly unconscious “dead water” all you busy beavers, all working together with a single purpose in mind, have managed to build so that you can “enlighten” us. This hopelessly unconscious dam called America actually believes that it is “the home of the free and the land of the brave” doesn’t it?
Dostoevsky was very perceptive. He had to have been extraordinarily insightful and observant since he was Einstein’s favorite author.
The truth hurts doesn’t it? But like surgery even though it may hurt, the truth also may also cure you. Run towards it, not away from it,  like Chomsky and Finkelstein and thousands of other good decent Jews have done. It may eventually make you decent person too.
The Jews ARE certainly very RICH.  Israel’s Former Prime Ariel Sharon admitted as much (before his stroke) when he admitted that “We (the Jews) own America.” According to the dictionary an “owner” is someone who has the rightful claim or title to a thing.  Divide America’s net worth by the number of Jews in the world and I believe you would all be very rich -
even more rich than you are now. And please don’t be ashamed of “owning” America. If I were Jewish I would brag about also. As far as I know there is NO LAW against owning America is there?
America’s Constitution doesn’t say it is illegal does it?
Rupert Murdoch is half Jewish - his mother was Jewish which makes him a Jew. And even though he may not(yet)officially consider himself a Jew he is unofficially because he loves and supports the Jews very much. “I have been accused of being too pro-Israel and too pro-Jewish, to
which I plead guilty as charged,” media baron Rupert Murdoch told 400 supporters of the Jerusalem College of Technology (March 5, 1999). Driving home his point, the chairman of The News Corp. added:‘For 50 years, my companies have taken a strong, even strident, position in support of Israel. Our commitment to Israel and its people is unyielding and I believe in Israel‘s future.”
I am not a Nazi. I know why you wish I were. I am just someone who has noticed certain
circumstances in my environment and am examining them out of curiosity and commenting on
what I see.
I do not think the Jews are going to let them be slaughtered again. There is no law, as far as I am aware of,  against controlling or owning America and through America the world. So why would anyone sane want to slaughter the Jews? I think as George Bernard Shaw once thought - that “the art of government is the organization of idolatry.”  The dictionary defines idolatry as an “immoderate attachment to or veneration for any person or any thing.”  And using Hollywood and America’s mass media, the Jews have managed to organize their idolatry and have caused America to fall in love with them. I do not believe that with a wife such as America - “a nation of 220 million used car salesmen
with no qualms about going around the world and killing anyone” - the Jews have to worry about
being slaughtered by anyone EVER. And don’t worry about the dam breaking.  Take solace in what Voltaire once said: “It is difficult to free (madly in love) fools from chains they(been conditioned to) revere.”

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By Tony Wicher, August 6, 2007 at 11:52 pm Link to this comment

#92505 by Inherit The WInd on 8/06 at 7:28 am
(Unregistered commenter)

TW:
Does Bush, lie, cheat, coverup with impunity? Sure! No doubt about that—look at Gonzo and Cheney hiding the US Atty firings and the Valerie Plame Wilson outing.

But I see them as OPPORTUNISTIC about WTC—it just doesn’t parse that they would be behind it—too many things could go wrong, too many unpredictables, too many people to keep too deep and awful secrets—like planting charges—this is the WTC, not a warehouse in Afghanistan. Such a building has never been demolished that way.”

ITW,

Well, that’s how I saw it too until I began having my doubts a year ago. Maybe it’s that $750 billion military budget. I tell you that there are trillions unaccounted for and the money is just flowing out like a sieve. There could be a hundred billion going into black ops, all totally under the control of Cheney and his gang. There is no telling what can be done with that kind of unaccountable power, what kind of images can be created, what kind of falsehoods can be perpetrated. 

Just so you know where I stand politically, no matter what else Johnson did, he can rot in hell forever for the Vietnam War as far as I am concerned. If he didn’t assassinate Kennedy, he just about assassinated the United States. We haven’t recovered yet and it doesn’t look like we ever will.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 6, 2007 at 7:05 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tuantu,
You are so feculant you could open a fertilizer factory.  You use fancy words and phrases but all you are doing is mouthing age-old lies.  Dostoyevsky wasn’t perceptive—he was a typical bigoted 19th Century Russian. No more.

Most Jews aren’t rich.  A few are.  But the financial powerhouses of America were mainly British—like Morgan—as Morgan Guaranty Trust and JP Morgan get closer to merging, the House of Morgan is on the brink of re-forming.  During WWI EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION with the Allies passed through J. Pierpont Morgan’s bank.  Every last one.  Not Jews, Morgan.

And this crap about Jews owning the media? Hello, you liar—Rupert Murdoch, the NON-JEWISH mogul from Austrailia now owns the Wall Street Journal AND Dow Jones.  Disney owns ABC.  Walt Disney was not only not Jewish, he was anti-Semitic—and Disney is a FRENCH name.

My grandfather was the child of orphans, a night watchman married off to the ugliest, meanest woman in town—my great-grandmother—nobody else would have her.  They were dirt-poor, shtetl-poor. My grandfather (actually, both of them) went to work before they teenagers.  He got sent to Siberia as a political prisoner by the Tsar when he was 17.

After 5 years he was released and came to America, with NOTHING. No relatives, no money, nothing.  He busted his ass, tried to start a little business of his own, failed, tried again and again, until FINALLY he had a tiny shop that was successful.  But at times his oldest son, my uncle, was making the money the family lived on.  Rich Jews! What chickenshit is that? You can kiss my Jewish ass you nazi prick!  It was my father and uncle who got their families from working class to middle class.

You go to the towns of New Jersey and Long Island and see ordinary people living in ordinary houses, but they are Jewish. Rich? I don’t fuckin’ think so!

But this myth of the Rich Jew has been used as an excuse for every atrocity down the years.  Now assholes like you want to use it to justify destroying Israel and slaughtering the 5.5 million that live there!

Do you REALLY think Jews are going to let themselves be slaughtered again, EVER AGAIN?  Go kiss a picture of Hitler or something.

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By tuantu, August 6, 2007 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment

“Nothing appears more surprising to those who consider human affairs with a philosophical eye than the easiness by which the many are governed by the few.” David Hume
Barry Lando ended his report on Israel and the myths the Jews have created about their colonization of Palestine with this comment: “much more remarkable is how successful the Israelis have been convincing American leaders to play along with their founding myth.”
I would like to point out that it really isn’t all that remarkable that less than 1% of America’s population - less than a million Jews - own and operate America when you realize that as far back as 1790 the French philosopher Condorcet wrote that because of the gullibility and stupidity of the vast majority of the French population, a cunning highly organized minority (such as the Jews) would be able to indoctrinate the French public at will and create an elite oligarchy behind a ‘‘democratic front.’’ When Senator William Fulbright declared in 1972 that “the Israelis control politics in Congress and in the Senate,” and added that the United States was “subservient to Israel” I realized that what Condorcet (over 200 years ago) had theorized could happen had actually become a reality in America even before 1972.
I would also like to point out that the dominance of a highly organized highly educated minority (like the Jews) obeying a single minded impulse, while working together towards a collective goal over a generally feeble minded, unorganized and generally uneducated majority is feasible and possible since the power of a dedicated highly organized very intelligent (and very wealthy) minority (such as the Jews), as against the power of a single unorganized pitiful individual within the majority (such as myself) is much greater since the minority is highly organized, rich, very smart and very dedicated and single unorganized uneducated pathetic individual within the majority (like myself) is not.
And it is even more extraordinarily easy to accomplish when the rich dedicated single minded very smart minority (i.e., the Jews) also just happen to own and/or control all of majority’s mass media.
If there is no deliberate single minded organized combination of Jews in the world working together towards a single goal, then the indisputable and easily provable control which the Jews have achieved (which is visible to any man with the eyes and intelligence to see things honestely and objectively) in America and England and Australia and Canada and France and Germany etc., and the uniformity of the policies which they follow must be the simple result, not of deliberate organized decisions, but of a similar nature in all of them who just happen to be working independently around the world all unconscious of one another and all working in the same way.
I think the brilliant Russian novelist Dostoevsky hit the nail right on the head when he noticed and then said this of the Jews: “They would have you believe that they do not rule over Europe, that they do not manage….the politics, the internal affairs, the moral life of the United States.” 
And that was over 100 years ago before Hollywood, AIPAC and America’s mass media! Dostoevsky was an acknowledged genius (Einstein’s favorite novelist) and he must have noticed something in his environment to prompt him to say that.
I wonder what it was…

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By Inherit The WInd, August 6, 2007 at 8:28 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

TW:
Does Bush, lie, cheat, coverup with impunity? Sure! No doubt about that—look at Gonzo and Cheney hiding the US Atty firings and the Valerie Plame Wilson outing.

But I see them as OPPORTUNISTIC about WTC—it just doesn’t parse that they would be behind it—too many things could go wrong, too many unpredictables, too many people to keep too deep and awful secrets—like planting charges—this is the WTC, not a warehouse in Afghanistan. Such a building has never been demolished that way.

Look AGAIN at the WTC7 evidence—the videos. Look at the opposing views and the examples of similar collapses. Keep an open mind: When I saw a side-by-side of 7 and a controlled demol they LOOKED the same and took the same time—but I SAW it was cooked. How? Because WTC7 was far, far taller than the “example” yet took (apparently) the same time to fall.  Also, I’m NOT seeing one thing in all the videos that I’ve ALWAYS seen in demol videos: First, there’s a loud, clear explosion at the bottom which completely cirles the base of the building followed by the other cutting explosions higher up…then the building comes down.  In the WTC7 vids all I see is the building coming down, not the signature base level explosion, or the pause after it.  There are also other photos and vids the conspiracy buffs ignore because they show WTC7 was damaged far, FAR worse prior to the collapse than their conspiracy allows for….

Rumors about LBJ being behind JFK’s murder are not only absurd, they are disgusting.  While LBJ had a temper and was ambitious as hell, and certainly was NOT too fond of JFK (at least prior to being VP), there is far too much of LBJ’s character that indicates he was a bold, brave humanist (secular? doubtful) who wanted very much to improve America—going back to his young days teaching Black children and deciding the Southern racism of the time was evil…He was a New Deal Democrat and WORSHIPPED FDR as The Perfect President.  He put everything on the line for the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act and Thurgood Marshall’s nomination.  He was a LOYAL AMERICAN who would have seen killing a President, and a fairly competent Democratic one, as treasonous.

But conspiracy theory is a delicious, exciting, but rarely nourishing soup.  You are right not to hang your hat on them.

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By Tony Wicher, August 5, 2007 at 3:49 pm Link to this comment

Re #92251 by Inherit The Wind on 8/05 at 4:34 am

Everybody “knew” Oswald didn’t kill JFK alone, and probably wasn’t involved.  Oliver Stone made a movie about it. It was all crap. Later evidence demonstrated that the objections to Oswald as the sole killer were all crap.”

ITW

First of all, I have never been a conspiracy theorist. I never got very involved in the JFK theories, although I will say that Paul Krassner’s hoax about Lyndon Johnson being discovered by Jaqueline Kennedy aboard Air Force 1 fucking Kennedy’s neck wound may have been close to the truth. The killing of Oswald by Ruby just strains my credulity too far. I think there was a coverup, and if so it must have come from Johnson. I think Johnson was power-hungry enough to do it, and if there was a coverup, it would have to have begun with him.

But I have never hung my political hat on this or any other conspiracy theory, including 9-11. At least I will say that the collapse of WTC7 hours after the planes hit the towers was clearly a deliberate demolition. Are you saying I should believe the official account instead of my lying eyes? Most people do that, including me. We actually believe what we see and hear on television. They show us a picture and tell us what it’s a picture of and we believe it without question. At least I would like to know why WTC7 was demolished, and who gave the order. It didn’t just collapse. No way. 

What I’m saying is that I see all the signs of a coverup about 9-11. Bush-Cheney obviously wanted a war. I used to think 9-11 just came as a god-sent opportunity, but now I think Osama probably had help from Cheney and his special ops/black ops people. Again I’m not hanging my hat on this. 

What I am hanging my political hat on is that the American people are being kept in the dark. No one, I presume including you, thinks the Bush Administration is candid and honest. It’s the most secretive administration in history. How much they are hiding I don’t know, but it’s plenty. I don’t think we can have a democracy unless we have an informed public, and I wonder how committed Hillary or any other Democrat is to full public disclosure. Maybe Kucinich, but what chance has he got?


“If women are voting for HRC, because she’s a woman, then it’s REALLY because she’s not another lying, cheating, assume-women-are-stupid man.”

Hell yes! I don’t blame ‘em a bit. And just maybe they know something I don’t, and Hillary will surprise even cynics like me. I sure hope so.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 4, 2007 at 9:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Fascism will not be stopped unless the entire truth of 9-11 comes out.  I believe both the World Trade Towers and WTC7 were intentionally demolished.
I feel quite sure Cheney was involved. We will not have a democracy unless there is full public disclosure. It will not matter much who is president.

*****

Everybody “knew” Oswald didn’t kill JFK alone, and probably wasn’t involved.  Oliver Stone made a movie about it. It was all crap. Later evidence demonstrated that the objections to Oswald as the sole killer were all crap.

Everybody “knew” flight 800 didn’t just crash. Pierre Sallinger bet his career on it, claiming it was shot down. It was crap. He lost the bet. It just crashed.

The conspiracy buffs “Know” Sirhan Sirhan didn’t kill RFK. Yet not only did he admit it, he said he did because RFK was a shoe-in and a solid supporter of Israel—and Sirhan is Palestinian.  So a Palestinian “hero” murdered the man who would have and SHOULD have been elected President in 1968.

Tony, it’s hard for me not to be insulting on the WTC because I find the conspiracy arguments such as you present just plain silly. I find the supposed “scholarly” work equally silly.  You want to believe them? fine. You think Cheney was behind it? Fine! I don’t—not because he isn’t evil and a fascist, but because I don’t think he’s clever ENOUGH to pull it off and hide it.

But whether or not he was, that does NOT change the fact that Cheney and the whole administration are OVERTLY driving us toward fascism and that drive CAN BE STOPPED!  Because until the “smoking gun” is found, it’s all just conspiracy theories and they are STEALING OUR COUNTRY while you argue over 9/11.

If women are voting for HRC, because she’s a woman, then it’s REALLY because she’s not another lying, cheating, assume-women-are-stupid man.

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By Tony Wicher, August 4, 2007 at 9:11 pm Link to this comment

#92133 by Inherit The Wind on 8/04 at 2:01 pm


“That’s a damn sexist thing to say.”

I don’t think it’s sexist at all. It’s the feeling I get after talking to a lot of women. On the contrary, they have every right to feel that way. I applaud their determination and I respect their power enough to say they can’t be stopped by male sexism.  Hillary might not be my choice, but she is theirs. I hope she does a good job. 

“I’d like to see the next Congress STRONGLY define what the legal limits on the President are and are not—No signing statements, no “Unitary” (dictator) theory. They can abort fascism COLD!”

Fascism will not be stopped unless the entire truth of 9-11 comes out.  I believe both the World Trade Towers and WTC7 were intentionally demolished.
I feel quite sure Cheney was involved. We will not have a democracy unless there is full public disclosure. It will not matter much who is president.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 4, 2007 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment
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TW:
We are making progress!

This thread ends when we have nothing more to say to each other. I’m sure Truthdig will start another one on the same topic. I would very much like to reach at least the beginnings of common ground with you. Perhaps if I put it this way, we could understand each other better:

LOL!  Well put!

There is no escape from the exercise of power. The more power one has, the more moral responsibilty one has. The United States is the most powerful country in the world. If civilization is destroyed, which appears to be fairly imminent, the United States will bear the most responsibility. Instead of using its power to prevent this from happening, its power is being used to make a small power elite obscenely rich and impoverish the rest of world. So far from trying to bring peace, it profits from war. We are the lords of war. Our military budget far exceeds the entire rest of the world combined. This obscenity is ruining the American people and their once wonderful culture as much as the rest of the world.

Up to here we have nothing to talk about—I agree completely.

The alliance with Israel serves only the interests of this power elite. It is terrible for the American people and the world.

THIS is the basis for our disagreement. I do not accept either statement as valid.

Empires rise and fall, and the United States is currently going the way of the British before them. I for one am doing everything I can think of to help this process along. Just think, we could be a civilized, peace-loving country like Germany and most other European countries are now. That would be great! Once we are out of the empire business, maybe we could get such things as universal medical care, decent public schools, etc., like the Europeans have. It would take only a small fraction of our current military budget.

This much is true—Iraq alone is going from a $60 billion/year drain to $120 billion/year and it didn’t serve our Sun-Tzu security needs…at ALL!

But when the United States leaves the Middle East as the British did, where does that leave Israel? Up shit creek without a paddle, as matters stand.

Possibly, probably. But “when”? There are SO many pieces to the puzzle, as Scott Ritters’ “quiz” shows. Another was the imbecilic decision in 1980 to replace Carter with Reagan, ending for the next TWLEVE YEARS all real oil conservation and replacement effort and support. 

Just think:  Had we continued on Carter’s road to energy self-sufficiency, the IRON GRIP the Middle East has on us would have been totally shattered…If the BIGGEST consumer went away,, well, it would have taken Western Europe as well—all those Petro-Dollars (and now Petro-Euros) would be giant piles of sand…and the $$$ that left our shores for Arabia—invested back in productive businesses—like the mil- excess you described…The WHOLE Balance of Power in the ME would be completely different—and Israel wouldn’t need our support!

Republican short-sightedness has been the scourge of America since the last progressive Republican President left office: Theodore Roosevelt.

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By Tony Wicher, August 4, 2007 at 11:27 am Link to this comment

Re #92064 by Inherit The Wind on 8/03 at 7:11 pm

“However, Tony, you DIRECTLY contradicted yourself:

Therefore I advocate that the United States should end ALL military alliances and weapons sales to states in the area, including Israel, but also including Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. U.S. power should be used to stregthen and support genuine international bodies, such as the United Nations and the World Court, to deal with such matters as terrorism and aggression.

The United States has no business stationing troops outside its borders anywhere in the world, or selling arms to any other country.

THAT, my friend IS isolationism, whatever you call it.  I don’t want us supporting dictators either, but sometimes you have to hold your nose…think of ALL the troubles that would have been avoided it President Shithead had just left Saddam Hussein be…. 

“But Truthdig has moved this thread to page 2 which means they want it to end…. “


ITW,

This thread ends when we have nothing more to say to each other. I’m sure Truthdig will start another one on the same topic. I would very much like to reach at least the beginnings of common ground with you. Perhaps if I put it this way, we could understand each other better:

There is no escape from the exercise of power. The more power one has, the more moral responsibilty one has. The United States is the most powerful country in the world. If civilization is destroyed, which appears to be fairly imminent, the United States will bear the most responsibility. Instead of using its power to prevent this from happening, its power is being used to make a small power elite obscenely rich and impoverish the rest of world. So far from trying to bring peace, it profits from war. We are the lords of war. Our military budget far exceeds the entire rest of the world combined. This obscenity is ruining the American people and their once wonderful culture as much as the rest of the world. The alliance with Israel serves only the interests of this power elite. It is terrible for the American people and the world.

Empires rise and fall, and the United States is currently going the way of the British before them. I for one am doing everything I can think of to help this process along. Just think, we could be a civilized, peace-loving country like Germany and most other European countries are now. That would be great! Once we are out of the empire business, maybe we could get such things as universal medical care, decent public schools, etc., like the Europeans have. It would take only a small fraction of our current military budget.

But when the United States leaves the Middle East as the British did, where does that leave Israel? Up shit creek without a paddle, as matters stand.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 4, 2007 at 7:01 am Link to this comment
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TW: I actually have very little to disagree with about your last post:

OK maybe we can talk about this. I say the objective must obviously be world-wide peace and democracy, and that this cannot happen except through the strengthening of international law…...... realize how much more secure and more peaceful the whole world would be? When will the people see this? When will they see that the military-industrial complex is sucking them dry, making war after war, rotting us financially and morally?

I see very little I disagree with other than emphasis.  “World Peace” is a great objective (gee, I sound like Miss America, without the great looks)...but from a realistic POV, it’s simply a great way to enhance OUR national security.  In other words, we make ourselves more secure and safe by a careful and thoughtful embrace of “world peace”.  Make the world safe for Democracy? I’m like you: I’m an American and I think self-rule of the people by the people is not a great thing—it’s the only thing.  But it’s not our right to FORCE it on them—like Bush is trying to do in Iraq.

I will say that Clinton was a model of democracy compared with Bush. But Clinton was a centrist Democrat who did not fundamental U.S. policy either foreign or domestic, and in fact the best you can say is that he slowed the rate of descent into fascism which was already very far advanced when he took office. Under Bush 2 we went off the cliff, of course.

Let us remember that for 6 years Clinton was dealing with Congress dominated by obscenely hypocritical Republican leaders who spent years trying to “get” something on him, and, when he actually DID try to fight terrorism, 1) they blocked his every move 2) they criticized and belittled him 3) they said it was “Wag The Dog” and 4) They let Bush re-writethe history of what happened.  Given all that, Bill Clinton did a damn fine job, though he could have been less accommodating of Congress.

I expect we will get Hillary next, because I get the feeling that this is what women want. They are more than half the electorate, and they want a woman president for a change. I don’t think they can be stopped.

That’s a damn sexist thing to say. I’m no Hillary fan but of the realistic candidates she’s as well-qualified as any—both technically and politically—and she KNOWS how the WH works.  I think she’s doing what she needs to do to get elected, then we’ll see a far more dynamic leader.  My first choice would be Gore, my second Edwards, then a virtual tie between Hillary and Barack Obama.  But of ALL the Democrats, there’s NOT ONE I wouldn’t prefer to the Republi-scum now running. Only Ron Paul in the GOP shows signs of intelligence, backbone and morality.

Is she going to make any fundamental changes in U.S. policy? I doubt it. The descent into fascism may be slowed, but its long-term prospects look good - unless Americans wake up. I’m pinning my hopes on the investigations and the possibility of impeachment at this point. My hopes aren’t very high.

Two different questions.  I don’t see how ANY President with a brain can’t seek to fundamentally un-do the cluster-fuck Bush got us into.  Will she/or anyone take the steps YOU (or I) think they should? Probably only partially.

But remember that Congress is now (barely) Democratic.  Things are looking like a BIG landslide in 2008 and they should be able to get past GOP obstructionism (again, the hypocrites were willing to violate the Constitution to get rotten judges approved—“Obstructionism” is only good when blocking Dem nominees!).  Plus, with a Dem Pres, we won’t see a plethora of vetos and signing statements that undermine sound laws.

I’d like to see the next Congress STRONGLY define what the legal limits on the President are and are not—No signing statements, no “Unitary” (dictator) theory. They can abort fascism COLD!

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By Tony Wicher, August 3, 2007 at 11:19 pm Link to this comment

#91954 by Inherit The Wind on 8/03 at 8:30 am

“So where in that vision of the world does Israel and the Arab nations fit?

A topic for further discussion…”

ITW

OK, maybe we can talk about this. I say the objective must obviously be world-wide peace and democracy, and that this cannot happen except through the strengthening of international law. As you said a couple of posts ago, we have to have laws because we cannot depend on the goodness of human nature (Jewish or otherwise). It is the responsibility of the most powerful counties to transfer a portion of their power to international bodies such as the World Court and the United Nations. If the United States would take only, say 10% of its 750-billion dollar military budget, and use it to finance support and build up the U.N., the ICC and build other international institutions, do you realize how much more secure and more peaceful the whole world would be? When will the people see this? When will they see that the military-industrial complex is sucking them dry, making war after war, rotting us financially and morally?

I will say that Clinton was a model of democracy compared with Bush. But Clinton was a centrist Democrat who did not fundamental U.S. policy either foreign or domestic, and in fact the best you can say is that he slowed the rate of descent into fascism which was already very far advanced when he took office. Under Bush 2 we went off the cliff, of course. I expect we will get Hillary next, because I get the feeling that this is what women want. They are more than half the electorate, and they want a woman president for a change. I don’t think they can be stopped. Is she going to make any fundamental changes in U.S. policy? I doubt it. The descent into fascism may be slowed, but its long-term prospects look good - unless Americans wake up. I’m pinning my hopes on the investigations and the possibility of impeachment at this point. My hopes aren’t very high.

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By Robert, August 3, 2007 at 10:36 pm Link to this comment

PALESTINE IS STILL THE ISSUE

By John Pilger


Documentary directed by John Pilger regarding the Palestine / Israel conflict. This documentary has to be seen and is important in understanding the most important issue of the Middle East.

For this video Please Link to:

http://www.spiderednews.com/Videos/62446.htm

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By Inherit The Wind, August 3, 2007 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Secondly, you really misunderstand and mischaracterize me when you call me an isolationist. You think I’m Pat Buchanan? Hardly. I want total involvement of the United States in international affairs, but I want that involment to be peaceful, and by means of strenthening international law.

No, I don’t think you’re Pat Buchanan—but he’s far from the only kind of isolationist.

However, Tony, you DIRECTLY contradicted yourself:

Therefore I advocate that the United States should end ALL military alliances and weapons sales to states in the area, including Israel, but also including Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. U.S. power should be used to stregthen and support genuine international bodies, such as the United Nations and the World Court, to deal with such matters as terrorism and aggression.

The United States has no business stationing troops outside its borders anywhere in the world, or selling arms to any other country.

THAT, my friend IS isolationism, whatever you call it.  I don’t want us supporting dictators either, but sometimes you have to hold your nose…think of ALL the troubles that would have been avoided it President Shithead had just left Saddam Hussein be.  Yeah, the people were in a bad way, but what HE gave them has been 10 times worse.  As FDR said about Samoza “He may be a sonuvabitch, but at least he’s OUR sonuvabitch!”  To defeat Hitler and Tojo we allied ourselves with Stalin and Chiang-kai Shek, and even (I kid you not) with Ho Chi Minh.  All of these men were brutal murderous killers, especially Stalin.

Real Politik is not always pleasant: But the VERY FIRST line of Sun-Tzu’s “Art of War” says everything:
“The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.”

The road either to safety or to ruin.  The message? ANY OTHER pursuit of war is criminal in WILL lead to ruin.  And Shrub is taking us to ruin.

But Truthdig has moved this thread to page 2 which means they want it to end….

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By Tony Wicher, August 3, 2007 at 7:44 pm Link to this comment

91954 by Inherit The Wind on 8/03 at 8:30 am

“Well, Tony,
At least we have SOME basis for discussion.  No Double standard means: You don’t rant and rave about Israeli transgressions but ignore Arab ones.  You don’t talk about Israeli aggression and ignore Arab aggression.  You don’t talk about Israeli “ethnic cleansing” and ignore 60 YEARS of Arab “ethnic cleansing”, not just of Jews (900,000 of them) but of non-Arab Moslems and non-Arab non-Moslems.  You don’t pretend that the invasion of Lebanon is the worst war crime in history and that Darfur is not far, far worse.

OK, we have THAT out of the way.  Now on to the next weak argument:”

ITW,

I don’t think you got my point. It was that if Israel is not to be held to a higher standard than Arab countries, then there is no particular moral reason to defend its existence. There then remain only the usual calculations of “U.S. national self-interest”, and in that case there is every reason for the United not to support or defend Israel, which has no oil, and which is a constant source of irritation to the countries which do have the oil, who would be happy to sell it to us anyway if Israel disappeared from the face of the earth.

If there are no moral reasons to defend Israel, then I would like you to tell me what the other reasons might be. Because it just looks to me like a very bad deal for the U.S., which is something that is beginning to occur to more and more Americans.

“Tony, the gist of your argument is that either we withdraw to our own borders, become isolationist, refuse to sell arms, refuse to intervene in other nations, refuse to take ANY responsibility in the world (like WWII when we let the Jews get slaughtered in Europe)....or we are a terrible, rotten imperialist.”

Secondly, you really misunderstand and mischaracterize me when you call me an isolationist. You think I’m Pat Buchanan? Hardly. I want total involvement of the United States in international affairs, but I want that involment to be peaceful, and by means of strenthening international law. What I don’t want is the kind of involvement that we have now, where we are propping up brutal dictatorships all over the world to feed the coffers of the military-industrial complex that has pretty much been running things and following the same imperialist policies since the end of WW II. I don’t want us supporting the degenerate kingdom of Saudi Arabia, or the police state of Egypt, or the apartheid state of Israel. In fact, we should be working with the United Nations, the World Court and other international bodies to put pressure on all these regimes to democratize. But of course the United States and Israel have combined for 40 years to destroy the United Nations and any meaningful reality of international law, for which both nations have shown utter comtempt.

I also support Tikkun’s “strategy of generosity” for a new Martial Plan for underdeveloped countries, in place of our current imperialist foreign policy.
I would greatly increase the size of the Peace Corps and send Amercans all over the world as ambassadors of peace and good will.

So how am I an isolationist?

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By Inherit The Wind, August 3, 2007 at 9:30 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Well, Tony,
At least we have SOME basis for discussion.  No Double standard means: You don’t rant and rave about Israeli transgressions but ignore Arab ones.  You don’t talk about Israeli aggression and ignore Arab aggression.  You don’t talk about Israeli “ethnic cleansing” and ignore 60 YEARS of Arab “ethnic cleansing”, not just of Jews (900,000 of them) but of non-Arab Moslems and non-Arab non-Moslems.  You don’t pretend that the invasion of Lebanon is the worst war crime in history and that Darfur is not far, far worse.

OK, we have THAT out of the way.  Now on to the next weak argument:  Tony, the gist of your argument is that either we withdraw to our own borders, become isolationist, refuse to sell arms, refuse to intervene in other nations, refuse to take ANY responsibility in the world (like WWII when we let the Jews get slaughtered in Europe)....or we are a terrible, rotten imperialist.

Both are exaggerations and foolish paths—we see Bush’s imperialism is making a huge mess (his clumsy ignorant incompetence makes it even worse).

But you cannot withdraw to “Fortress America”.  That dream died a century ago.  Nor can you ignore the fact that if WE aren’t there projecting power, hopefully wisely and benignly, SOMEBODY ELSE WILL BE!  And, while I might not mind that vacuum being filled by the European Union, I wouldn’t like to see it filled by either Putin’s Russia or by China.

Therefore, our national security, which is the safety of our nation, DEMANDS that we be involved in world affairs.  We can do it wisely, as Bill Clinton did getting NATO into Yugoslavia to abort the slaughter there, or insanely stupidly, as Bush has done in Iraq. Or a combo:

Afghanistan was BEGUN as a fine coalition, could WELL have been the paradigm for such actions, but President ButtHead decided he needed a war in Iraq, and he needed it in the spring of 2003—other seasons weren’t do-able and 2004 was too much into the Presidential season.  So he sacrificed Afghanistan for his idiot plans in Iraq.

But we cannot withdraw—it doesn’t work. And imperialism is a dumb idea—there’s better, less-costly and less-deadly ways to influence the world.

So where in that vision of the world does Israel and the Arab nations fit?

A topic for further discussion…

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By GodSend, August 3, 2007 at 8:12 am Link to this comment

Here are a few more submissions for the name of the American Division of Zionist warriors, exclusively dedicated to fighting Israel’s wars of aggression for them:

‘Armageddon’
‘729th’
‘Matzos’
‘Masseltoff’
‘Never Again’
‘Dancing Shlomos’
‘SOMBFAJ’ (the Military loves acronyms!)
‘Eye and Tooth’
‘Greater Israel’
‘Shalom’

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By Tony Wicher, August 3, 2007 at 12:05 am Link to this comment

re #91634 by Hilljew on 8/02 at 4:45 am
Tony Wicher,

You said, “If what you say is true, the U.S. should immediately end all support. We are just pissing off the Arabs who have the oil.” Hmmm, I actually find that agreeable, if only because it’s more truthful than the line “We should end our support for Israel because it’s a criminal state”. It acknowledges the truth that behind the unique and disproportionate condemnation of Israel (as opposed to far worse countries) are not empathy, moral considerations or any other kind of idealistic motives, but pure self-interest (keeping the oil flowing). As Golda Meir said of the Useless Nothings, more than 30 years ago: “They can’t talk, their throats are choked with oil. Little has changed since.”

U.S. imperialism will abandon Israel if it is in its interest to do so. If I thought Israel worth defending I would advocate its defense on moral grounds. However, since according to ITW and other supporters of Israel, we should not hold Israel to a higher standard than any of the surrounding Arab or Muslim countries in the region, there remains no reason for avocate support for Israel against the Arabs. Let’s have another Arab police state there instead - what’s the difference? Even Osama bin Laden has said he will be glad to sell us all the oil we want at a fair market price. Why should we antagonize him? He just wants us out of the Middle East. So do I.

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By Tony Wicher, August 2, 2007 at 7:11 pm Link to this comment

#91633 by Inherit The Wind on 8/02 at 4:42 am

“So the question that is NEVER asked here is: Of what tactical, strategic, diplomatic and economic advantage is it for the United States to support Israel and to maintain relations with Israel? Start THERE and you’ll see a very different landscape.”

IHW,

I have never believed or said that the United States supports Israel for anything other than reasons of state - not morality, and not because Israel is maniupulating Congress or the media. As I have said before, almost too many times to repeat again, I agree with you that the real motives of the United States are economic. The motive, as I have said all along, and Chomsky and others have also said all along, is to control the region for its natural resources, particularly its oil - not only because the U.S. needs it to support its outrageous consumer culture of a bunch of fat-assed, SUV-driving United Statesians, and to make huge profits for oil companies, but also because from a geopolitical standpoint it gives the U.S. economic leverage over Europe, China, India, etc. Now, that is what I call imperialism. U.S. support for Israel is an integral part of U.S. imperialism. The idea that we should defend our plucky ally, Israel “the only democracy in the Middle East”, is nothing but imperialist propaganda intended for the ears of the aforementioned fat-assed, SUV-driving, gullible, ignorant United Statesians.  I am against imperialism. I think history is a struggle between imperialism and democracy. I’m on the side of democracy. I want my country, the United States, to cease being an empire and be the peace-loving democracy it could be. Therefore I advocate that the United States should end ALL military alliances and weapons sales to states in the area, including Israel, but also including Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. U.S. power should be used to stregthen and support genuine international bodies, such as the United Nations and the World Court, to deal with such matters as terrorism and aggression.

The United States has no business stationing troops outside its borders anywhere in the world, or selling arms to any other country.

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By GodSend, August 2, 2007 at 3:08 pm Link to this comment

CM:

The problems of the world (and the solutions) are inextricably linked to human spirituality - what you call ‘religion’. It’s what sets humanity apart from the animal kingdom! To debate humanity’s problems without considering spirituality would be like debating cooking without mentioning food! wink

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By GodSend, August 2, 2007 at 2:55 pm Link to this comment

It occurred to me that ‘Gefilte Fish’ Division may nor appeal to the majority. So here are some other candidates:

‘Borscht’
‘Sara Lee’
‘Starbucks’ (that’s a good one!)
‘Bagel and Lox’
‘Greenspan & Bernanke’
‘Hollywood’
‘Spielberg’
‘Hebrew National’
‘Chicken Liver’
‘Corrie Rachel’

Perhaps we should hold a naming election (Diebold, anyone?)

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By GodSend, August 2, 2007 at 1:41 pm Link to this comment

Let’s form a ‘Gefilte Fish’ Division in the US Military, composed of Zionists of all stripes (Jews, ZioChristians, Neocons, etc.) who are itching to fight Israel’s wars! By God, let them! Lieberman, Pelosi, Bush, Cheney, Clinton, Barack, Reid, Krauthammer, Palast, Chomsky, Zakheim, Abrams, Feith, Wolfowitz, Greenspan, Bernanke, Blitzer, Fleischman, Perle, Pipes, etc. etc. etc. can volunteer their sons, daughters and other interested relatives to murder Arabs or be killed and/or maimed! We could even eliminate the age restriction so they can each grab a gun themselves and head for Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran - wherever Israel wants to send them to knock some heads or olive trees off. Heck, we could even let them fight under the Israel flag and they wouldn’t have to use ‘false-flag’ tactics any more! wink And the Pentagon can hide all the returning coffins and we won’t mind! smile We can nominate Bush to be their Commander-in-Chief and ‘Decider’. He’ll LOVE it! Pelosi and Clinton can be a 4-star Generals smile

Problem SOLVED!

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By GodSend, August 2, 2007 at 9:18 am Link to this comment

Helljew:

FG, Sr. is right - you and Zionists have been exposed as liars, murderers and rebels against Yahweh. God (and no other god in his (or her) right mind) would condone what the Israeli Zionist Satanists have done, are doing, or intend to do to the Palestinians and other Arabs in the ME - not to speak of humanity!

Yahweh and His Son, Jesus the Christ, have identified your true nature and who you worship: Satan! He also pronounced Final Judgment on the rebellious house of Israel: “...and I will leave them there {in His furnace} and MELT them.” After the great MELTING, all the grandiose plans for a “Greater Israel” and NWO will dissolve into Desert Glass!

This is where our discussion (and the story) ends!

L’Chaim (to LIFE - Jesus the Christ is LIFE!)

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By Chris Murphy, August 2, 2007 at 9:04 am Link to this comment
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Massive reading comprehension problem godsend. I’m happy to participate in a rational, non-religious, discussion.

The pro-Israel camp has no response to the writings of its early Zionist leaders, who knew perfectly well Arabs would not self-dispossess. They knew they’d have to force them out, scare them out, do whatever it would take in order to get them to leave so that Jewish immigration could create a Jewish majority. Israel is the result of colonization.

There has been no response to Jewish terrorism either. Because there can be no response. Jewish terrorist groups killed men, women and children, just like Arab terrorist groups did.

Yitzhak Shamir and Menachim Begin were members of the Zionist terrorist group Irgun. Begin was the head. Shamir once said “it was the only way we could operate, because we were so small. So it was more efficient and more moral to go for selected targets.” Targets like the King David Hotel, and Deir Yassin where 260 innocent people were killed there by the Stern Gang.

Ben-Gurion later said ” without Deir Yasin there would be no Israel.”

You argument against terrorism belies the truth. Palestinian terrorists do not deny who they are targeting. Israel merely denies it. Again, saying something doesn’t make it true. You don’t get to say that Israel doesn’t target civilians when the civilian count is so, so much higher than the number of terrorists it actually kills. OK,  you can say it, but it’s intellectually dishonest. Maybe you don’t actually know these things though.

One might be able to argue that Israel came into being through terrorism and then successfully transformed its violent arm into its military, whereas through lack of money and leadership Palestinian Arabs continued to resort to the same tactics they’ve been using since this conflict started.

But then last year Netanyahu was at a ceremony commemorating the bombing of the King David Hotel. One of the surviving Irgun terrorists, Sarah Agassi, was quoted as saying, “We fought for our independence. We thought it was the right way . . . If I had to fight for Israel, I swear even now I would do anything.” Netanyahu called her a freedom fighter.

Zionism and Jewish immigration was an invasion. And it never intended to be contained within the boundaries defined in the U.N. partition plan, resolution 181. Not for one moment were those borders realized.

And after the 1967 war, as I previously mentioned, as a matter of numerous UN records, Arab states explicitly offered a recognition of sovereignty, and peace, in exchange for complete withdrawal of the occupied territories captured in 1967. Israel rejected all of these, and then proceeded to take even more land through illegal settlement activity, in violation of the 3rd Geneva conventions, to which it is a signatory. No rational response by the pro-Israel camp.

Gandhi even got the complete moral bankruptsy of the whole venture. He understood it was Arab land because they actually LIVED there. If Jews wanted to immigrate, let alone setup a new state there, it was literally up to the Arabs to agree or not. Well, they weren’t given a choice. It’s no different than what Europeans did to Native Americans, except that exporting another race and culture to solve your problems had rather recently been determined to be a war crime. Again no rational response.

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By Hilljew, August 2, 2007 at 8:43 am Link to this comment

Frank Goodman,

1.A. “No concept of God could…” - so you just don’t want to take the Torah at face value. Numbers 33:50-54 is just too much for you. Your problem.

1.B. “...what Israel is doing to Palestine.” Israel IS Palestine, you Jew-hater! Israel is its name, not “Palestine”, the name Emperor Hadrian gave to the region in order to blot out the Jews’ historical connection to it. How well it has worked, as we can see right here! The Jews are taking back what is theirs, their land, retrieving it from Arab invaders who are coveting and stealing it. God condones, nay, commands that.

2.A. “No concept of goodness and honor could justify killing old men, women, and children to take their lands, homes and destroy their social systems…” I agree: no concept of goodness and honor could justify what the Muslims are doing all the world over.

2.B. “...in order to make way for a greedy, money grabbing, grubby group of aggressor.” Ah, the anti-capitalist spin. A reminder: 100,000,000 deaths due to Communism. He who lives in a glass house shouldn’t throw stones. And the only aggressors here are the Arabs.

“The hordes of escapees from the ovens of Hitler learned well from Hitler.” In other words, you’re saying the Jews are the new Nazis. And we all know what should be done to Nazis, right? We don’t flinch when, in the Indiana Jones movies, we see Indiana kill them by the boatload, because it’s held they’re not worthy of life. So if you equate Jews (or Zionists, to use the modern codeword) with Nazis, then you’re as good as saying you believe it’s justified for Arabs to murder Jews. Like Tom Paulin when he said of the Jewish settlers that they “should be shot dead” and that “they are Nazis, racists. I feel nothing but hatred for them”. Anti-Zionism is our age’s cloak of acceptability for hating the Jews and seeing their being murdered as justified.

We don’t see the Arabs as cockroaches, and certainly not as harmless. We see them for the Jew-haters they are, we recognize they want us dead. If that makes us “racists”, then so be it! We’ll be called racists, but at least be alive! Not praised by the world after being led like sheep to slaughter, which is what happened more than 60 years ago.

Let us raise the curtain on the real world and see wrong for what it is. Anti-Zionists are the same as the Jew-haters of 60 years ago, just with an updated justification for their hatred: the Post-Colonial Narrative, of standing up for “the rights of the weak and oppressed, indigenous peoples against strong Western colonialist aggressors”. The narrative that says, if you’re strong you’re automatically in the wrong, and if you’re weak then every crime is permitted for you. The mindset that says Arab suicide-bombers murdering Jewish women and children is something that should be understood, because “it’s their only weapon, they have no army like the Western colonialist aggressor, and they’re fighting against oppression”. The mindset that gives Robert Mugabe a blank check because he’s a black oppressing blacks, not a white oppressing blacks. Marxism is PURE EVIL written in ideological form.

I pray you will repent of your position. All of you anti-Zionists. Failing that, I pray God will destroy you all.

Leftist scum.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., August 2, 2007 at 8:16 am Link to this comment

Re: #91634 by Hilljew on 8/02 at 4:45 am

Yeah! I do get tired of your bullshit. But where there is bullshit, there is bound to be a bull. In fact there is a lot of bull. That is why we call it bullshit.

I do not intend to counter your missiles. I intend to go for the source and take out the bunkers from which the dung is flung.

So much for the cultural shock of scatology to describe the reality of aggression against true democracy and human rights.

1. No concept of God for humans could include a belief that God would condone what Israel is doing to Palestine.

2. No concept of goodness and honor could justify killing old men, women, and children to take their lands, homes and destroy their social systems in order to make way for a greedy, money grabbing, grubby group of aggressor.

The hordes of escapees from the ovens of Hitler learned well from Hitler. They also learned from the Americans to mask their crimes in a cloak of honor and decency to prevent another mass killing of Jews. But, in the process it is OK to kill masses of Arabs, if they get in the way. After all, Arabs have been compared with cockroaches. They are harmless, but you have to kill them on sight. Cockroaches carry no known diseases. But just the sight of them turns the stomach. That is how the Zionists see Arabs.

In fact Americans were pretty shabby in their treatment of Africans in this country. But, no matter how badly Africans were treated, they were used as a source of cheep labor to build out industrial might from slavery, to slum workers.

Let us raise the curtain on the real world and see wrong for what it is. See it as a blight on our humanity, not as a justification for God’s favoring the greedy, self praising bigots who propagate Zionism and Jewish domination of Palestine.

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By Hilljew, August 2, 2007 at 5:45 am Link to this comment

DevilSend (and others who do the same),

You seem to have a penchant for using the doctrines of the Neturei Karta (splinter-sect of a splinter-sect, condemned by nearly all Jews, as I said) in order to hammer your anti-Zionist points home. Can I, then, use the doctrines of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (splinter-sect of Mormonism, itself a splinter off of Christianity; nearly universally condemned for advocating polygamy) as the basis for my critiques of Christianity? That would only be fair.

When the Arabs talk of “land stolen by the Jews”, they mean all the lands that make up the state of Israel now. They don’t want just Judea and Samaria (“West Bank” to all you anti-Zionist revisionists), they want for all of the state of Israel to be wiped out as a sovereign entity. Naturally, these are not demands we can comply with. There will be war, then, until we have driven them all off our land.

To Life! (God, having no human form, no fleshly incarnation and no literal son. That’s what the Bible, sans man-made Christian additions, says)

Frank Goodman, Chris Murphy,

Sorry to see you tired out. It’d be more honest, though, not to mask that tiredness with transparent pretexts such “undebatability of religion”, “twisted logic” and “lack of enlightened discussion”.

Tony Wicher,

You said, “If what you say is true, the U.S. should immediately end all support. We are just pissing off the Arabs who have the oil.” Hmmm, I actually find that agreeable, if only because it’s more truthful than the line “We should end our support for Israel because it’s a criminal state”. It acknowledges the truth that behind the unique and disproportionate condemnation of Israel (as opposed to far worse countries) are not empathy, moral considerations or any other kind of idealistic motives, but pure self-interest (keeping the oil flowing). As Golda Meir said of the Useless Nothings, more than 30 years ago: “They can’t talk, their throats are choked with oil”. Little has changed since.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 2, 2007 at 5:42 am Link to this comment
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Tony Wicher on 8/01 at 10:58 pm
(183 comments total)

Re #91332 by Inherit The Wind

Actually I have addressed these points of yours ad nauseum, and you have completely ignored everthing I said.

I will try one more time, I guess. First of all, the idea that I am holding Israel to a “higher standard” than 22 Muslim states strikes me as morally sleazy. That’s like saying that other people are murdering scumbags so it’s ok for me to be one too. OK, I won’t hold Israel to a higher standard. OK, so Israel is as big a piece of crap as Egypt or Saudi Arabia, then. We won’t expect any more of it. Fine. So why then does it deserve our support? If not for its superior virtue, or its democratic values, what else? What good is Israel, then? If what you say is true, the U.S. should immediately end all support. We are just pissing off the Arabs who have the oil.

***************

I FINALLY got through to you!  You are FINALLY beginning to understand! Yes, there have been MANY issues for which Israel is accountable, and many leaders should be in front of the ICJ (like Sharon, if he wasn’t in a coma).  Yes. we want Arab oil.  So why do we support Israel?  You and others seem to think it’s the AIPAC and other lobbies, but NEVER consider another possibility:
REAL POLITK!

It never seems to occur to the pro-Arab types that there is a reason that we have been supportive of Israel for 60 years, and especially the last 40, across various administrations.  Put aside “morality”. Put aside “influence peddling” and think like a skilled diplomat and negotiator.  Until George Bush purged them, there were LOTS of talented people in the State Dept who understood that supporting Israel is a key element to having influence and projecting power in that part of the world.  You don’t have to be a neo-con Bush idiot to understand that projecting power is important—you can use it carefully, benignly, an iron fist in a velvet glove, or empirically and stupidly, like the Bushes.

Every nation projects power, more or less, in one way or another.  It can be done wisely or stupidly.  The former allows diplomacy, negotiations and peace.  The latter leads to war, death and misery.  These are facts, not subject to “opinion”.  Stupidity (and BOY is the Bush admin the poster child for this) means not bothering to understand the other side, and when you do, to COMPLETELY misunderstand it—like in Iraq.

Sun Tzu wrote :“Know your enemy and know yourself and you need not fear the result of a thousand battles.  Know yourself but not your enemy and you will lose as often as you win. Know neither yourself nor your enemy and you will always be defeated.”  (afraid I’m paraphrasing but that’s the best I can do).  This simple paragraph is the key that unlocks virtually ALL international relations, whether the battle is military, diplomatic, or economic.  It unlocks how national security SHOULD work.  It implies that information gathering and planning are EVERYTHING to decision-making, not listening to neo-con assholes, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney and God.

So the question that is NEVER asked here is: Of what tactical, strategic, diplomatic and economic advantage is it for the United States to support Israel and to maintain relations with Israel? Start THERE and you’ll see a very different landscape.

Another example: Since the fall of the Shah, the leaders of Iran have made mistake after mistake, alienating natural allies out of anger and religion (the US and Israel) and exposing themselves to enemies, like Saddam Hussein and Russia, (they share a 1000 mile border).  They temporarily wised up, FINALLY during the Afghan War, but President ShitHead blew a GOLDEN opportunity with his criminal “Axis of Evil” speech. Since then, they have been as stupid as Bush—Stupid: actions that hurt your own national security. Now Washington and Teheran are in this sad and sick tango of death that is leading both nations to an unnecessary, stupid and CRIMINAL war.

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By Tony Wicher, August 1, 2007 at 11:58 pm Link to this comment

Re #91332 by Inherit The Wind on 8/01 at 4:17 am

Actually I have addressed these points of yours ad nauseum, and you have completely ignored everthing I said.

I will try one more time, I guess. First of all, the idea that I am holding Israel to a “higher standard” than 22 Muslim states strikes me as morally sleazy. That’s like saying that other people are murdering scumbags so it’s ok for me to be one too. OK, I won’t hold Israel to a higher standard. OK, so Israel is as big a piece of crap as Egypt or Saudi Arabia, then. We won’t expect any more of it. Fine. So why then does it deserve our support? If not for its superior virtue, or its democratic values, what else? What good is Israel, then? If what you say is true, the U.S. should immediately end all support. We are just pissing off the Arabs who have the oil.

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By GodSend, August 1, 2007 at 11:35 pm Link to this comment

Pssst….....chris murphy: you just participated wink Who’s looking for an argument?! Kindly leave the premises and stop loitering!

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By chris murphy, August 1, 2007 at 6:55 pm Link to this comment
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Honestly, why do otherwise rational and intelligent people become irrational and illogical when it comes to religious whackos? You guys are being trolled by either a.) people who don’t believe what they say, but are just trying to get attention by claiming religious basis/justification for Israel, or its destruction; b.) people who do believe in a religious basis/justification for Israel or its destruction. In either event, these people are imbeciles, why would you waste your time responding to such inane rubbish? By definition you cannot argue with someone who has no facts to present and truly believes some deity actually has the inclination to grant a mandate of land to a specific race/culture/religion.

It’s high order lunacy. I don’t get the need to participate in such futility.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., August 1, 2007 at 12:22 pm Link to this comment

Re: #91384 by Hilljew on 8/01 at 8:22 am

Sorry I left you twisting in the wind. I did not intend to hang you out to dry.

Your twisted logic (not really logic at all) sounds like a Pentacostal preacher I heard once discussing his version of Christianity. He was trying to explain the significance of speaking in tongues. The more he explained the more murky the concept became. That is how you come across in this discussion. You reduce God to a blathering idiot in your concept of events assumed to be under the control of the omniscient and omnipotent being we have come to accept in our more advanced religious interpretation of events and human thought. It also sounds like the explanation of a certain military operation in Vietnam, CA 1970. “We had to destroy the village to save it.”

With that, I leave you twisting in the wind as I have no more interest in engaging you or any other idiot in this more enlightened discussion of the events in Palestine. Twist until somebody cuts you down, then thank the kind person who does you that favor.

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By GodSend, August 1, 2007 at 11:50 am Link to this comment

Helljew:

Well, finally some half-intelligent, if erroneous, ‘answers’ wink

liberate the entire Land of Israel from non-Jewish rule.

Tell us, Helljew, who, exactly, are the non-Jews who are ruling the ‘land of Israel’?

Israel according to the borders of God’s promise

Where, exactly, are the ‘borders of God’s promise’? Is this the same God who exiled the Jews (Diaspora) and told them that they COULD NOT have their own land (Back) until He gave it to them? (check with the Neturei Karta Jews {Othodox Rabbis} about the end of the Exile)

polluted us with their idolatry

You mean they polluted you with the same idolatry that Jews have practiced (on and off) for all of their history, in rebellion against Yahweh - the ‘Golden Calf’ idolatry, etc.!

The oppressors of the Jews are all who deny the Land of Israel belongs to the Jews, and furthermore say the Arabs are justified in killing Jews as retaliation for “having their lands stolen”

You mean a person in Australia, who denies that ‘some’ land in or around Israel belongs to all the Jews of the world, is an ‘oppressor’ of the Jews? Right! Who said that Arabs are justified in killing Jews as retaliation? Israel just needs to give the stolen land back to their rightful owners - that’s all! (no killing of anyone is necessary, however, quite a chunk of Wiedergutmachen money is due all the Arabs who have been killed in Palestine by Jews or forced off their land - sort of a justified ‘Holocaust Industry’ wink

orthodox commentary of its faithful custodians, the rabbis

Tell us, Helljew, are you referring to the orthodox Neturei Karta rabbis? And who decides between a ‘faithful custodian’ and an ‘unfaithful custodian’? Are you the ‘Decider’?

To Life! (Jesus the Christ)

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By Hilljew, August 1, 2007 at 9:22 am Link to this comment

Frank Goodman,

I thought I already covered the issue of why God sends enemies upon the Jews. To repeat, in case you missed it: for the purpose of keeping them close to Him, instead of wanting to assimilate to the surrounding peoples. The natural course of nations is an inconspicuous start, a meteoric rise and then an equally meteoric fall into the pages of history—look at the Romans for an excellent example. This would happen to the Jews unless we were loved by God; He visits the enmity of the others upon us in order that we may not forget we are His, and His alone.

Turning the other cheek is a Christian doctrine, not a Jewish one. Judaism teaches, “an eye for an eye” (i.e. “love conquers all” is a sentimentalist crock of you-know-what) and “rise up to kill the one who rises up to kill you” (pre-emptive warfare). Even in Christianity, “turn the other cheek” does not apply to states, only to individuals.

We could have given the Arabs first-class citizenship. In fact, the Israeli Declaration of Independence says as much. Pity, though, that the Arabs weren’t willing to tolerate a single inch of land being under Jewish sovereignty. This attitude has not changed in nearly a century. There’s a harsh reality in this region that all you kumbaya-singing idealists try to ignore. “Arrakis is real. The Harkonnens are real”, as Gurney Halleck says to Paul in the original Dune.

DevilSend,

Those are not theories, those are from divine scripture, and from the orthodox commentary of its faithful custodians, the rabbis (awaiting your use of the term “Pharisee”, in 1, 2, 3…). The “anti-Christ”, on the other hand, is an interesting but unsupported theory, based on the Christians’ man-made additions to our Torah, better known as the “New Testament”.

The oppressors of the Jews are all who deny the Land of Israel belongs to the Jews, and furthermore say the Arabs are justified in killing Jews as retaliation for “having their lands stolen”. Anti-Zionism is the form of Jew-hatred acceptable in our times.

Greater Israel, or more accurately Israel according to the borders of God’s promise, isn’t all that greater than Israel in its current borders. It’s still a moderately-sized chunk of land on the eastern coast of the Mediterranean. What we insist on, however, is to inhabit that chunk without restriction, and to worship God as the Torah says. Those who oppose our God-commanded goals will have to be expelled. The Canaanites were driven away by God’s command, not just because they would have prevented us from inhabiting the Land of Israel, but also because, even if they hadn’t, they’d have polluted us with their idolatry. So too, we cannot have that Islamic Waqf telling us when we can or can’t go near the Temple Mount (let alone remove that golden cow-udder that’s on top of God’s Temple).

There’s nothing about the messiah resurrecting the dead or making the blind see. As Rabbi Maimonides says: the messiah is a Jewish leader to whom God will give power to defeat the enemies of the Jews and liberate the entire Land of Israel from non-Jewish rule. The Messianic Age will also see the end of all wars, but that will be God’s doing, not a miracle worked by the messiah. That is the truth; you don’t have to accept it, but you must refrain from opposing Zionism (the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel; Moses was the first Zionist), otherwise you will burn in hell. Have a nice day!

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By GodSend, August 1, 2007 at 8:56 am Link to this comment

Hilljew:

Let me clue you in on the REAL Messiah (the one the Jewish prophet Isaiah described in chapter 53 of the Torah) and what the Father (Yahweh) and His Son (Yeshua) are ‘up to’, here on Earth:

(1) The mystery is this - “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col. 1:27). It is the same mystery. There are not a half a dozen mysteries in the New Testament. It is the Gospel of God concerning His Son, and the Gospel is not a system of truth to be preached, the Gospel is a Person, and the power of the Gospel is not that you accept certain things proposed to you about Jesus Christ, but that Jesus Christ comes to reside in you by new birth. That is the Gospel.

(2) God manifest in the flesh is something to be proved by a life.

(3) God will reach His end, He will come in, in His Son in terms of sonship, to take up residence within those begotten of Him, and will grow in them, increase His measure in them, until at last, brought to the unity of the faith, they become a mighty embodiment and revelation of God Himself; not in Deity, but in what He is spiritually and morally in this universe, conformed to the image of His Son, a living expression of God’s own thoughts, to fill His universe. The enemy is out against that, and every little step in that direction is challenged, the spiritual growth is countered all the time. He is striking at God’s Son.

courtesy of Theodore Austin-Sparks. smile

‘The enemy’ in (3) includes you and all Zionists - even Jews (except Messianic Jews, of course!) wink

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By Inherit The Wind, August 1, 2007 at 5:17 am Link to this comment
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Tony Wicher on 7/31 at 10:58 pm
(182 comments total)

Re #91115 by Inherit The Wind on 7/31 at 11:08 am

This thread has degenerated into pointless mud-slinging if it was ever anything else. I don’t see any willingness on your part to even consider other points of view either. I have more interesting things to do. See you around.

**********

Tony,
While you have remained civil (for which I thank you) you have NEVER been willing to consider that there was anything wrong with your fundamental premise that the solution to the ME is for Israel to open its doors and its citizenship to ALL Palestinians, let them come in, and take over Israel because they’ll have more votes. 

You’ve stuck to this position regardless of whether they are sworn to eradicate Israel, create a Moslem state, or kill all infidels.

You’ve ignored the evidence that 22 times before this has degenerated into dictatorship, suppression of non-Moslems and the “wrong” Moslems, and any non-Arab ethnic group.  Yet, somehow, you think THIS time will be different. Why? Because they’ll sit around and sing Kumbaya?

You are quite willing to roll the dice with the lives of 5.5 million Jews, to tell them to put their faith in God and people who’ve been trying to kill them for the last 60 years.  You think your idea will work. There is ample evidence it won’t. There is no fail-safe for the 5.5 million Israelis if it doesn’t.  Yet you CONTINUALLY refuse to recognize any of these facts.  You can argue from now till the cows come home why you think Israel should not exist, why you think it’s a criminal state, but that doesn’t change two basic facts:

1) Israel exists and has existed for 60 years. It is a reality
2) Israel is militarily able to defend itself and will not allow itself to be destroyed as long as it has that power.

You ask, no, you DEMAND they voluntarily give up these two facts as the price of “peace”, that they TRUST their lives and their childrens’ lives to people who have happily killed them.  You want them to roll the dice with 5.5 million lives—and I think the dice are loaded as well.

I don’t want to see 5.5 million more Jews slaughtered. I don’t want to see 5.5 million Palestinians slaughtered.  What I want is a negotiated peace that BOTH sides realize isn’t ideal, and that they realize the OTHER side isn’t completely happy either.  Only then can they both step back, take a breath, and say: “Ok, we’re not going to try to kill them…today.”

All the characters here who are anti-Israel ALL deny that there are 22 apartheid Arab Moslem states that treat minorities as, well, minorities at best, or as garbage to be destroyed (remember Darfur?).  They pretend that 900,000 Jews weren’t forced to leave their homes in these 22 nations for Israel, the US and Canada.  They all support a double-standard.  I have no idea why.

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By Tony Wicher, July 31, 2007 at 11:58 pm Link to this comment

Re #91115 by Inherit The Wind on 7/31 at 11:08 am

This thread has degenerated into pointless mud-slinging if it was ever anything else. I don’t see any willingness on your part to even consider other points of view either. I have more interesting things to do. See you around.

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By GodSend, July 31, 2007 at 6:27 pm Link to this comment

Hilljew:

You have some ‘interesting’ theories about your messiah. Does anyone share them or are you going out on a limb on your own with this? Can you name a rabbi or more who subscribe to this circumcised messiah theory? Is this ‘messiah’ the same as the anti-Christ? When you mention the oppressors of the Jews, you mean Zionists, I suppose - or do you mean plain old goyim?! Who, exactly, do you mean? So is this messiah gonna put all those 400+ nukes to effective use to establish “Greater Israel” - you know, the one that stretches from horizon to horizon and on which the sun will never set? Perhaps there is a better description of your messiah and his future exploits in the Talmud? Could A. Lieberman be the Jews’ messiah? Is he gonna be a super-deceptive devil, far more devious than the present cadre of murdering Israeli Zionists? Maybe we should check the Mossad membership list? What about Rafi Eitan?

Finally, what did Yahweh and the Jewish prophets have to say about this messiah? If he can’t resurrect the dead and make the blind SEE, I’d revert to the REAL Messiah and expect His Return Trip, like the Messianic Jews! - ideally, BEFORE He sets foot on Earth and enters Jerusalem by leaping over the Wall smile

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., July 31, 2007 at 3:55 pm Link to this comment

Re: #91092 by Hilljew on 7/31 at 9:41 am

Actually, I have checked out the Torah in translation as I do not read Hebrew. The English translations are substantially in agreement with the Biblical accounts. With a few modifiers, nouns and verbs differing. A few substantial differences are apparent. I won’t go into them as I am not a scholar of religion. I only know what I read in the available literature and in the news papers. Of course, some of my knowledge comes from rants like yours in Internet blogs and comments sections of newspapers. What appears to be true, probably is, and what appears to be untrue probably is. I do get into some depth in more substantial publications and discussions.

The first set of facts that hit me between the ears is that Jews have suffered at the hands of God much more than other people over time. I just can’t imagine a God who favors Jews over all other people sending his kids into slavery in Egypt for a few crusts of bread and some humus. The Egyptian slaver drivers may have even given them some pita bread or falafel. Then the trouble convincing God to let the Kids of Israel go. Moses had to jump through his, you know what, to negotiate with the God of the Jews to free his followers. Then God let them wander in the Sinai for 40 years before they could find the Promised Land that they had left so many generations ago to find food during the famine in the land of milk and honey. It seems that the cows and bees died and they ran out of milk and honey. It should have been easier even for God to bring back the crops and the bees in the promised land, than to send his kids into exile in that God forsaken land of Egypt whose God hated the God of the Jews.

Then when the Romans got tough on the Jews and they fled to Europe and later to America and spent 2000 years in the Diaspora, all at the behest of the God of the Jews who must have wanted to teach them a lesson. Not only did some of them start to eat bacon, but, they even married Christians and had some non-Jewish kids to murk up the gene pool. I suppose God also allowed that, or could certainly have done something about it, since he loves the Jewish people so.

Now they are back in their promised land and fighting to stay there. God has sent suicide bombers to their vegetable markets and restaurants to shock them into following Jewish customs more closely. Do you thing they got the lesson? No. Quite a few have become atheists and thumb their noses at the religion of their ancestors. They are still Jews by maternal descent from real Jews.

Why don’t the Jews just ask their God to forgive them their trespasses as God has forgiven those who trespass against them. Why don’t Jews, when struck on one cheek, just turn the other cheek? When the Ishmael forgave Abraham and received him for visits to Mecca and even attended the funeral for Abraham in Hebron, Jews should have repented and accepted the kids of Ishmael among them. They could have even given the Arabs first class citizenship in the Promised Land in recognition of their descent from Abraham and his wife’s personal servant, the Egyptian lady who had sex with him so that she could bear a child as a surrogate for Sarah.

Rant on!

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By Inherit The Wind, July 31, 2007 at 12:08 pm Link to this comment
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Yahweh is finished with expulsions of the rebellious house of Israel! His Final Solution is to melt them in His furnace (SEE Ezekiel) - that’s why He gathered them there

FINAL SOLUTION???  I TOLD you DogShit was a nazi!  There is NO more significant “code word” than the Hitlerian “Final Solution”.

Y’know, TW, I did some reading around that book, but since the ONLY way you will discuss the ME is if YOU get to frame the discussion through it, I guess we won’t get to do it. 

It’s a fine debating technique, framing the discussion—ReThuglican spin-meisters are great at doing it.  But I won’t be sucked in to discussing it anymore than I’ll be sucked into discussing Ann Coulter’s “Treason” as if it really was a scholarly work.  I don’t blame you for trying to frame the discussion, I’ll do it to, if I can. But I won’t respond to it.

Meanwhile, this thread has degenerated into free-fall slug-fest: 10 guys in the ring, see who’s left standing.  DogShit has now started rabbit-punching you and Frank Goodman, Sr., and really wailing away on HillJew, who’s nearly as fanatical the other way as DogShit is.

Time to break out the popcorn and watch the show…

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By Hilljew, July 31, 2007 at 10:41 am Link to this comment

DevilSend,

The messiah will come, no question about it, but it’s not the apotheosized single-mother’s child you believe in. The messiah is a human leader who gets the job done the first time. No “second coming”—if he dies without freeing the Jews from their earthly oppressors, then he wasn’t the messiah. “Messianic Jews” are not Jews (except by birth, whoever has a Jewish mother), they are Christians. To become a “Messianic Jew” is to turn your back on one’s forefathers and on the God they believed in. If you’re among those who have done that, then doubly long and painful will be your stay in hell unless you repent and return to Judaism.

Frank Goodman,

The Torah says the Land of Israel is ours forever, just like every command of God to the Jews; any exile is only temporary, just as the Temple sacrifices are only temporarily out, because the Temple has not been yet rebuilt.

God’s Torah isn’t about any of those Marxist, politically correct of “human cooperation and justice”. It’s about doing God’s will, doing what God commands, whether current human sentiment agrees with it or not. The “new idea of human rights” can no more replace the injunctions of the Torah than the Christian “New Testament” or the Islamic Koran can do so. God’s Torah will endure, while man-made doctrines will go away. God’s word is not “mythology”. If you don’t believe it now, you WILL believe it someday.

Islam, in the Koran, commands the believer to subjugate the whole world to Islamic rule. This is mainstream Islam, not “radical Islam” or “Islamism”, just as the commands of keeping the Sabbath, sacrificing at the Temple and inhabiting the Land of Israel are mainstream Judaism and not just a “radical strain”. Jews and Christians in Islamic societies are second-class, protected only in the “protection racket” sense—all Islamic states are apartheid states.

Mr. Goodman, you need to replace your Politically Correct Bible with the real one. The Torah does not support your dovish and universalist ideas. God, in The Torah, orders ethnic cleansing—see Numbers 33:50-54.

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By GodSend, July 31, 2007 at 10:29 am Link to this comment

Pssst…........FG, Sr…..Yahweh is finished with expulsions of the rebellious house of Israel! His Final Solution is to melt them in His furnace (SEE Ezekiel) - that’s why He gathered them there (but they refuse to ‘get it’). I’m very impressed by your knowledge of the history of the ME and its people. smile

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By Neoconned, July 31, 2007 at 10:23 am Link to this comment
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#91063 by Hilljew on 7/31 at 8:15 am

It is good that you have taken the Neturei Karta as your friends, for your long stay in hell will be with them.

———————————————
HAVE YOU NO SHAME?

You curse the children of Ishmael and Issac in one breath to a firey Hell.  Who made you judge, jury and exicutioner?

If God is watching then he can see Pride and Vanity in your heart.  And for a person of God, as you claim to be, that is a terrible sin.

I wonder if you just believe in the windowdressing of Piety so you can justify your racist cheap Tribalism, that is your aparteid Israel.

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By GodSend, July 31, 2007 at 10:19 am Link to this comment

Windbag:

Yes, PLEASE ignore me!

TW:

I’m going to ignore you because you deserve to be ignored - and not just by me! wink Now God is NOT going to ignore you forever. He may ignore you for a while but sooner or later you will be summoned into His presence. What can you expect? “It is a fearsome thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” You have NO IDEA just how fearsome it will be!

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., July 31, 2007 at 10:13 am Link to this comment

Re: #91063 by Hilljew on 7/31 at 8:15 am

I find it amazing that you can be almost honest with yourself and in agreement with me as to facts.

“Jewish is a religion and an ethnicity. Not a race, however—Jews span multiple races, from the Swedish-looking Ashkenazi to the Ethiopian. The Jews are a real nation.”

Then you distort enough to justify Israeli atrocities against the, mostly homogeneous (according to you) Arab Palestinians.

“The ‘Palestinians’ are not distinct from any other neighboring Arabs, and furthermore have faultlines within them that in any other case would constitute separate ethnicities; the ‘Palestinian nation’ is a fiction devised and maintained for the purpose of robbing the Jews of their God-given land.”

“God-given land”? How many times does God have to take it away from the Jews before they get the message? The lessons of human cooperation and justice escaped Abraham and all his descendants. Now a new idea of human rights has emerged from the evolution of civilization. God no more gave that land to Jews than he gave American Natives the land that is now the homeland of a hodge podge of races and ethnicities from the entire world. Your Jewish mythology notwithstanding.

Fortunately the Muslims accept Jews as ‘People of the book’. Muslim Palestinians who understand the concept of democracy accept Christians, Jews and people all religions to live among them and cooperate in the economy of their joint efforts. Islamists are no better than Zionists, who also believe that the mythology of religion rules the affairs of men. One State says all are equal before the law. A constitution would guarantee that with application of law and justice.

Zionist Jews are no better than Fascists who would kill anyone who disagrees with them. Mr. HillJew, you need to study the whole picture of the Nakba along with your study of the Shoah. You better get right with God, or suffer another episode of the Wrath of God, Who will drive you out of your promised land yet again. The promise of God was a land where all people could dwell in peace and cooperation with justice for all. It was the fanatic Jews who lost that covenant. And it is the fanatic Islamists who threaten it.

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By GodSend, July 31, 2007 at 10:11 am Link to this comment

Oh, Hilljew - would you mind presenting your credentials as a Jewish prophet!? We’ll settle for anything as good as Isaiah (chapter 53)! wink Ezekiel will be OK as well (the ‘Melting’ prophecy). Malachi and Jeremiah are also OK.

Wishful (and devilish) thinking is just not gonna do it! Your ancestor musta been one of those Jewish Pharisee vipers Jesus dressed down in no uncertain terms! wink You sound like one of those Zionists who “worship in the Synagogue of Satan” Jesus talked about! Don’t you know that Yahweh HATES murderers and those who rebel against Him and will exact (severe) punishment? Yup, it’s guaranteed - and you can’t be saved from that punishment by the precious blood of your Messiah! :( Why not become a Messianic Jew???

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By Neoconned, July 31, 2007 at 9:25 am Link to this comment
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#91041 by nahida on 7/31 at 3:02 pm

Dear Nahida

I’m sorry to say the only way Israel can continue using oppresive tactics and intimidation is to dehumanize the Palestinian people.  Hence Palestinians are viewed as vermin. 

It’s never mentioned all the rape and murder that went on prior to, and during, the 1948 unilateral declaration of Israeli independence.  But that page in history was conveniently ripped out.  Ben Gurion saw to that.  Instead you have the Morality of a Roman soldier at work in Israelis:  “They attack us because we want to live on our land again. And we are Jews.  They are criminals for getting crushed under our super tanks.  We can’t talk to killers.  God told us to take back our land and kill anyone who got in our way.  What did we ever do to them? They are Anti-Semitic.  Anybody who disagrees with us is Anti-Semitic or else a self-hating Jew.” 

The irony is totally lost on the Victimhood mindset of many Israelis.  The Nazis had to dehumanize the Jews in order to execute the final solution.  Ergo, the Jews were going to get payback on the Palestinians.  Very logical indeed.

It isn’t the first time in history that the Brutalized end up becoming the Brutes.

I only wish more Israelis would speak out against this brutal interpretation of Zionism.  They should back away from these classic Jew Haters, the Christian Fundamentalists of America.  Those guys backing Israel to the hilt, in order to engineer the advent of Armageddon and the blood bath that would follow, thus heralding the arrival of Jesus Christ.

What warped and short sighted alliances some Israelis have. 

I guess the Prophet Elijah is out of a job now.

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By Hilljew, July 31, 2007 at 9:15 am Link to this comment

Frank Goodman,

Jewish is a religion and an ethnicity. Not a race, however—Jews span multiple races, from the Swedish-looking Ashkenazi to the Ethiopian. The Jews are a real nation. The “Palestinians” are not distinct from any other neighboring Arabs, and furthermore have faultlines within them that in any other case would constitute separate ethnicities; the “Palestinian nation” is a fiction devised and maintained for the purpose of robbing the Jews of their God-given land.

DevilSend,

It is good that you have taken the Neturei Karta as your friends, for your long stay in hell will be with them.

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By Tony Wicher, July 31, 2007 at 9:13 am Link to this comment

Re #90751 by Inherit The Wind on 7/30 at 3:21 am

I said,

Let me just start off by saying that maybe Israelis should try writing a consitution themselves, one that enshrines the same democratic principles as the American one.

You said

I believe they have one already, and actually abide by it.

ITW,

Israel has no written constitution. Didn’t you know that? I say the reason it does not and cannot have one is that if it tried to writeone, it would just make it too glaringly obvious that the Jewish state is racist and undemocratic.

As long as you refuse even to read “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”, I will have to regard you as a Nakba denier with your eyes tight shut. If you would read it, we could talk about it. It’s a waste of time to keep putting out our unsubstantiated opinions; there have to be historical facts to base them on. That’s what real scholarship is about, and Alan Pappe is such a real scholar. 

Dogshit is a religious maniac who belongs on a street corner with a bullhorn. It’s also a waste of time to respond to him. What’s the point? Just ignore him.

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., July 31, 2007 at 9:05 am Link to this comment

Re: Continuation

In conclusion, there is no pure racial, ethnic, or origin for Jews or for Palestinians. All people born in Palestine before 1948, including the native Jewish people and Arabs are Palestinians. All Jews gathered from other parts of the world in the Return are Israelis. Those Arabs who remained in the newly proclaimed state of Israel are considered Second Class Israelis (non-Jewish indigenous people). Only Jews enjoy First Class citizenship in Israel. That is, only Jews can call it their homeland. Non-Jewish people accepted as citizens cannot claim to be Chosen People entitled to the protection of the state or by God, but any non-Semitic people accepted as Jewish can claim the homeland and protection as Jews by God and the Israel.

Finally, all this hodgepodge of identities calling itself the “State of Israel” is comprised of the descendants of original people of the area, converts to Islam, Arabs and people from Greek islands, some after the crusades, as a garrison; and a sizable portion during the late 19th and 20th century, when the out bred Semites came to claim the land as theirs exclusively by God’s favor. Although there was a land of thriving people who had lived on that land for the 2000 years since the Jews fled from the Romans and other invaders, Jews claimed that it was a “Land without people.” There were olive groves, oranges, lemons, animal husbandry, and a thriving Middle East culture from the relatively peaceful merging of Semitic and non-Semitic people since the first pre-historic ancient people arrived to colonize the area.

The Jews from Europe brought with them many improvements from the Caucasas and other parts of Europe and America which could be applied to support all the people of Palestine (Israel). With scientific advancements, a modern nation of the hodge podge that is Palestine (Isreal), is advocated by the descendents of the original peoples, now referred to as Palestinians by most of the world, with liberty and justice for all in a cooperative spirit of equality and human rights. The Jews who claim a God given right of Return advocate a ghetto state exclusively for the protection of Jews in their frequent failures to merge with other populations in cooperative economic unions in other world states. The Jews advocate a ‘democracy’ of Jews only, with some rights of residency to non-Jews subject to immediate ejection or execution when it is perceived (by Jews only) to be in conflict with God’s plan for the Jews. Jews are for Jews only, while the non-Jews are willing to live as equals in the land ‘flowing with milk and honey’ for all.

The Jews, in contrast, are neither a real nation, cohesive, nor in touch with democratic principles. They include sub-groupings that discriminate against the descendants of the Jews who stayed, the Spanish Jews, who had endured the Inquisition, the Jews from Arab lands, and black African Jews from Ethiopia. The European Jews expect to dominate the others because Arab Jews who are more Arab than Israeli. They have now come to the land from all the world, whether Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Yemenites, Persians, Ethiopians or anywhere else. All are Jews. All have a connection to the land, both divine and historical. The Jews are now true Palestinians, but they cannot live in peace with other Palestinians who are not Jewish.

Stand up for the Palestinians: Christian, Druze, Ba’hai, Muslim, Samaritans, and Jews! Support the cause of liberating the Palestinians of all religions from the oppression of the invaders from outside, the Jews from Europe, UK and US! Free Palestine! Democratic Palestine forever with equality, justice, and freedom for all. One State united in a common cause of human rights and economic freedom from want!

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., July 31, 2007 at 9:03 am Link to this comment

Re:#91018 by Hilljew on 7/31 at 5:18 am

CORRECTION:

Who are the Jews?

On the Jews

The Zionists have taken up the cause of standing for the Jews, of liberating them from oppression by the dominant powers. But before taking up a cause, it is prudent to know the details, so that the efforts will not be in vain, or worse, expended on a bad cause.

We begin the all-important question: Who are the Jews?

Jews are a mixture of tribes from many ancestral lines.  Some descend from Abraham through his son Isaac in descent from Shem, son of Noah. Others have merged with the descendents of Isaac through unions with women from other tribes and ancestors, including some from Ham and Japeth, the other sons of Noah. One line of Jews is from Eastern Europe where Jewish women married Gentile men and whose offspring are more European than Semitic, though they descend from Semitic women in a direct line from Shem, thus Semites in maternal descent.

Other Jews are converts from any line of people in the world, thus not Semites at all. There are black Jews from Africa and Asian Jews from Asia, all Jews by conversion, not birth in a line of Semites.

The Jews who had remained and established in Arab lands, including Palestine, are near pure Semite, in that they have only mixed with other Semitic peoples. All Jews are either from a process of inbreeding, or out breeding with other people, both Semitic and non-Semitic. The further from the last Semite in the female line, the less pure the genetic content of Semitic ancestry.

After the Diaspora, the returning Jews were not pure Semite. In fact they had little Semitic content in their genes. The Askanazi, are so remote from Semitic ancestry, that they could not actually be called Semitic with any real degree of certainty. The African Jews are more Black African than Semite.

The Jews of Israel are a hodge podge of cultural, ethnic, and racial Jews, who are not a pure race of Semites.

When the Return was initiated before the creation of the State of Israel on the ancestral lands which had been occupied for over 2000 years by a mixture population of Jews, Christians, and Muslims, each group were made up of inbred and out bred racial stock of various makeup. The Spanish Jews and the Arab Jews are not closely related to the European Jews, or the African Jews.

There are no pure Semitic peoples in Israel among either the Palestinians or the Jewish populations. If the Biblical story of Noah and his descendants is true, all Semitic people descended from Shem, through Abraham, through Isaac and Ishmael respectively. Thus Arabs and Semitic Jews are closely related. The cross insemination with European and African people created the mixture of people officially now called Jews, considered the First Class Citizens in the population of Israel.

There is no pure race of Semitic people anywhere on Earth. Jewish is not a race, but a religion, or faith. Palestinian is not a race, but a group of people descended from the aborigines of that land, that included the Hamitic Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Beduoins, the Philistines, the Sumaritans, and other tribes. The ethnic Palestinians are all descended from the various desert and other tribes of that part of the world. The Return Jews are all descended from the mixture with native populations from other parts of the world.

(Continued in next comment)

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By GodSend, July 31, 2007 at 9:03 am Link to this comment

Israel is ‘stolen property’ - stolen by murderous and devilish means from the Palestinians by Zionist rebels against Yahweh’s will. The Jews belong where the diaspora sent them, NOT in Palestine! Ask true Torah (Neturei Karta) Jews about the validity of Israel and Zionism! They say “Zionism is Nazism” and the world can SEE that it is true!

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By GodSend, July 31, 2007 at 8:53 am Link to this comment

Good post, nahida! smile

Did Hilljew say “Jewish Palestine forever!”? I suppose he means ‘eliminate’ all remaining goyim in Palestine in the manner to which they have become accustomed? (murder and intimidation and walling them out).

“They shall have their reward. There will be gnashing of teeth” (lotsa Israeli gold-filled teeth, dripping with the blood of Palestinians)! No, Hilljew, there will not be one murderous Jew from the rebellious house of Israel left unmelted, by the time Yahweh gets through with them. Maybe you should go there (Hurry up!) and be melted with them?! (check out Ezekiel - “The Word of God is living and powerful”)

Any ‘collateral damage’ Jews will have their Zionist leaders (Satanists) to thank for their fate!

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By Hilljew, July 31, 2007 at 8:42 am Link to this comment

nahida,

By the work of your own hands you have no future, for you raise your own children to be suicide bombers. You sacrifice the fruit of your wombs. You murder your young. You slaughter your offspring. Such was the reason for which God ordered our (Israelite) forefathers to drive out the Canaanites out of the Land of Israel.

I’ll believe your high talk about the worth of human life when you show you hold it, first of all by giving life to your own children, by not raising them on the heritage of suicide-martyrdom and genocide. “There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us”, said Golda Meir of blessed memory, and her words are only proving truer with each passing day.

And no, there is no Palestinian nation, except if the Jewish nation is meant by that term. Golda Meir was right about that too. You’re Arabs, and you have 22 states of your own to go to. We have only one Jewish state, one spot in the world which is truly ours, the only part of the world that we desire and demand. You’re like the rich king who steals the single vineyard of a common man.

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By nahida, July 31, 2007 at 8:34 am Link to this comment

You are welcome


Yes, you can have my land
When
You are able to hear
The weeping olive tree
When pulled down
With the sharp, yellow teeth
Of your ugly bulldozer

Yes, you can have my land
When
You are able to feel
The agonizing pain
Of my hills and mountains
Torn apart when hit
By your merciless missile

Yes, you can have my land
When
You are able to see
The blood of my poppies
When fallen to the ground
Crushed under the
Cold metallic chains
Of your vile tank


Yes, you can have my land
When
You are able to taste
The salty bitter flavor of slavery
Felt by my villages and towns
When under curfew
For days on end

Yes, you can have my land
When
You are able to smell
The burning desire
In my orchid’s wounded heart
To be united again
With her much missed children
....

Yes, you can have my land
When
You are able to hear
The cries of the wind
Mourning her little ones
Who used to play
Flying away their black and white
Red and green kites

Yes, you can have my land
When
You are able to feel
The tight and shallow breathing
Of my home and garden
When suffocating
By your nasty
Nerve and tear gas

Yes, you can have my land
When
You are able to see
The tears of my clouds
Trickling down their cheeks
When punched by the fist
Of your apache helicopter

Yes, you can have my land
When
You are able to taste
The sweetness of dignity
Felt by a stone
When picked up
By a brave little hand

Yes, you can have my land
When
You are able to smell
The perfume of my earth
When taking a shower
Getting ready
To embrace the body
Of her beloved child

Yes, you can have my land
When
You are able to touch
And to heal
The deep bleeding wounds
Of my sky
Stabbed by your f16

Yes, you can have my land
When
You are able to teach
Your heart
How to love
Every drop of water
Gushing from below
Or falling from above

Yes, you can have my land
When
You can gently hold
Every grain of sand
And tell her how sorry
You are
For causing all the pain
She has to go through

Yes, you are welcome to have my land
When
You are able to hear
The whispering prayer
Of its angels
Chanting words of love
Peace and justice
For every human soul
Then…
You are welcome to have my land

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By nahida, July 31, 2007 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

Solving the problem

Behind closed doors
In big dark rooms
Men in black and grey
Eating drinking
Laughing and chatting away
Gather to discuss our problem
The problem of Palestinians!

They talked about
Democracy
Freedom
Human rights
And a solution
A vision
That will bring peace
To the troubled Middle East!

“We can easily solve this
If only
If only
Those terrorists
Stop their violence”
They concluded.

“And as for the refugees,
That’s no problem
At all
Just give them some money,
Compensate,
And they’ll all be content”

Those civilized
Freedom lovers
Peace protectors
Human right defenders
Inventors of ethics


Did they not know that
A man
With a knife
Against his throat
Has the right
To push His butcher away!!

Did they not know that
A child,
Who grew up
Far… far away
Deprived of the love
Gentle touch
And warm hugs
Of her beloved grandma
Given the infinite universe
Can never compensate her!
...

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By nahida, July 31, 2007 at 8:02 am Link to this comment

Hilljew… writes “On the Palestinians”!!

That is a breakthrough!!!

And silly me, I thought that we didn’t exist before!

Oh well, something must have changed, and it seems that we do exist now; but we are bad, very bad, we are not like other normal humans; no… no… no

Being lesser humans with no morality, we only know how to hate; love and ethics are only the possessions of the “chosen”

Therefore; we do not deserve to exist.

We do not deserve to be free.

We do not deserve to have our human rights protected.

We do not deserve to live in our homes, on our own land; we must rot in our refugee camps to give room for the “chosen”; who want nothing but to make the desert bloom!

And of course to make the desert bloom they only destroyed 531 villages, and 18,000 homes, and over a million olive trees; killed hundreds of thousands, and made seven million people refugees; but that is quite understandable when the task is making the desert bloom.


Above all:
We do not deserve to be treated justly, or to stand on equal footing with the “chosen” ones (God forbid such a wicked blasphemous thought, and such senseless, mindless, absurd aspirations)

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By Hilljew, July 31, 2007 at 6:18 am Link to this comment

On the Palestinians

The Left has taken up the cause of standing for the Palestinians, of liberating them from the oppression of the invader from outside. But before taking up a cause, it is prudent to know the details, so that the efforts will not be in vain, or worse, expended on a bad cause.

We begin with the all-important question: Who are the Palestinians?

In the Galilee, these are Arab villagers with strong ties to their brothers up north, beyond the Lebanese border. These Arabs are either Muslim, Christian or Druze, and the relations between them are not always cordial (both Nazareth and Tur’an are fighting-grounds between the ancient Christians and the Muslims who wish to throw them out).

In Judea and Samaria, these are Arab townsmen on the one hand, and Arab villagers on the other. They do not live in good terms with each other: the townsmen view the villagers as subclass, and the villagers consider the townsmen to be modernized sell-outs. And again, both townsmen and villagers are split into Muslims and Christians. When riots broke over Pope Benedict XVI’s remarks about Mohammed, the Muslims of Judea and Samaria all of a sudden forgot their “Palestinian unity” and started killing Christians and vandalizing their churches.

In the Negev Desert, the Bedouins are split between Arabs and Africans (blacks from Sudan and further down south, brought by the pashas in the 19th century). The Arab Bedouins still view the African Bedouins as “slaves” (because black slavery, contrary to Leftist revisionist history, had been an Arab specialty long before Europe heard of it).

In the central regions of Palestine, emigrations that took place in the 19th and 20th centuries led to the situation of Bedouin living together with original townsmen, in Ramleh and Lod for example. In Ramleh, in fact, there are three “Palestinian Arab” groups: original Christian townsmen, relatively newer Muslim townsmen and recent Bedouin newcomers. They all hate each other.

In all of Palestine—indeed throughout the Arab world—the importance of pedigree means that even Arab Muslim villagers living in the same village can be enemies of each other, just because of tribal issues. They don’t eat together, and they don’t intermarry; and, they hate each other.

Finally, all this hodgepodge of identities calling itself the “Palestinian Arab Nation” is comprised of the descendants of Muslim invaders coming to the land in various periods of history: some in the 7th century, when the Arab Muslims first conquered the land; some after the crusades, as a garrison; and a sizable portion during the late 19th and 20th century, when the land could be seen to start its bloom, under the hands of the Zionist Jews, by God’s favor (for there is no natural explanation as to why a land should be nearly a desert for so long, under so many nations, with so many attempts to make it bloom, to do so only when a particular nation came back to it).

The Jews, in contrast, are a real nation, cohesive, with subgroupings that do not fracture the nation into mutually hating, warring factions. They have now come to the land from all the world, whether Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Yemenites, Persians, Ethiopians or any else. All are Jews. All have a connection to the land, both divine and historical. The Jews are the true Palestinians.

Stand up for the Palestinians, the Jews! Support the cause of liberating the Palestinians, the Jews, from the oppression of the invader from outside, the Arabs! Free Palestine! Free Jewish Palestine! Jewish Palestine forever!

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By Inherit The Wind, July 30, 2007 at 11:09 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

GodSend on 7/30 at 10:01 pm
(187 comments total)

Well, Windbag, I take your last comments as a promise to blow yourself out this cyberspace door. May you never return to befoul this Blog with your insane, filthy, agnostic and blasphemous huffing and puffing!

Go somewhere where you’ll be appreciated. Lemme SEE, now, where could that be? There’s a real hot seaside resort near lake Gehenna! Starts with an ‘H’. You can’t miss it - just follow the hot air coming out of your mouth. wink

Good riddance!

**************

Yeah, you sure are filled with that Christian spirit of forgiveness. Yup. Sure. Right…..

Why don’t you go over to Hondo’s websight and spend the next year arguing with HIM how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, each claiming the other is going to Hell for heresy.  I’m sure you’ll have MUCH more time over there.

Besides, Hondo is one of those fundies who believes the re-formation of Israel is a major sign of the Second Coming. So why don’t you argue with HIM about that?

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By GodSend, July 30, 2007 at 11:01 pm Link to this comment

Well, Windbag, I take your last comments as a promise to blow yourself out this cyberspace door. May you never return to befoul this Blog with your insane, filthy, agnostic and blasphemous huffing and puffing!

Go somewhere where you’ll be appreciated. Lemme SEE, now, where could that be? There’s a real hot seaside resort near lake Gehenna! Starts with an ‘H’. You can’t miss it - just follow the hot air coming out of your mouth. wink

Good riddance!

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By Inherit The Wind, July 30, 2007 at 7:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

GodSend on 7/30 at 2:08 pm
(186 comments total)

Hey, Windbag - your filthy words and lies are blowing in the Wind! Why don’t you just leave them in the bag and stop inviting God’s whirlwind before it blows you away!? wink

Still calling down God’s damnation on me, DogShit just for baiting you? You have a totally fucked up sense of morality.  I’ll bet your just praying for “God’s whirlwind” to kill me, just because I don’t believe you are His next prophet. BTW—I once heard it said that God answers ALL prayers. Mostly, He says “No”.  Think about it.

In addition to everything else I already mentioned, you’re a masochistic Windbag!

That may be the first true thing you’ve ever said—I must be a masochist—I keep wasting time on you.  Usually, all I do with DogShit is shovel it up with the pooper-scooper and throw it on a compost heap.

Where is TW for at least an INTELLIGENT argument???

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By Robert, July 30, 2007 at 7:33 pm Link to this comment

Why Wolfensohn Quit

A Warning to Tony Blair
By URI AVNERY

July 30, 2007

Tel Aviv.

“Last week, James Wolfensohn gave a long interview to Haaretz. He poured out his heart and summed up, with amazing openness, his months as special envoy of the US, Russia, the EU and the UN (the “Quartet”) in this country - the same job entrusted now to Tony Blair. The interview could have been entitled “A Warning to Tony”.Among other revelations, he disclosed that he was practically fired by the clique of Neo-cons, whose ideological leader is Paul Wolfowitz.

What Wolfensohn and Wolfowitz have in common is that both are Jews and have the same name: Son of Wolf, one in the German version and the other in the Russian one. Also, both are past chiefs of the World Bank.

But that’s where the similarity ends. These two sons of the wolf are opposites in almost all respects. Wolfensohn is an attractive person, who radiates personal charm. Wolfowitz arouses almost automatic opposition. This was made clear when they served, successively, at the World Bank: Wolfensohn was very popular, Wolfowitz was hated. The term of the first was renewed, a rare accolade, the second was dumped at the earliest opportunity, ostensibly because of a corruption affair: he had arranged an astronomical salary for his girl friend.

Wolfensohn could be played by Peter Ustinov. He is a modern Renaissance man: successful businessman, generous philanthropist, former Olympic sportsman (fencing) and Air Force officer (Australia). In middle age he took up the cello (under the influence of Jacqueline du Pre). The role of Wolfowitz demands no more finesse than that of the average gunman in a western.

But beyond personal traits, there is a profound ideological chasm between them. To me, they personify the two opposite extremes of contemporary Jewish reality.

Wolfensohn belongs to the humanist, universal, optimistic, world-embracing trend in Judaism, a man of peace and compromise, an heir to the wisdom of generations. Wolfowitz, at the other end, belongs to the fanatical Judaism that has grown up in the State of Israel and the communities connected with it, a man of overbearing arrogance, hatred and intoxication of power. He is a radical nationalist, even if it is not quite clear whether it is American or Israeli nationalism, or if he even distinguishes between the two.”

==============================================
THE ZIONIST NEOCONS/ISRAEL’S REPRESENTATIVES, ELIOTT ABRAMS, WOLFOWITZ AND THE OTHERS, ARE STILL AT WORK WITH THEIR EVIL SCHEMES IN THE MIDDLE-EAST. KEEP A WATCHFUL EYE ON WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IN THE NEXT 18 MONTHS…WHILE GWB & CHENEY ARE STILL IN OFFICE. AIPAC & THE NEOCONS HAVE SOMETHING ON THIS ADMINISTRATION. 

Here is the link to the rest of the article:

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery07302007.html

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By GodSend, July 30, 2007 at 3:08 pm Link to this comment

Hey, Windbag - your filthy words and lies are blowing in the Wind! Why don’t you just leave them in the bag and stop inviting God’s whirlwind before it blows you away!? wink In addition to everything else I already mentioned, you’re a masochistic Windbag!

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By Inherit The Wind, July 30, 2007 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

GodSend on 7/30 at 8:54 am
(185 comments total)

Windbag:

You are like a condemned prisoner on Death Row: A “Dead Man, Walking!”

The incessant stream of lies and filth spewing forth from your mouth, reveal a mind diseased with agnosticism, a black heart filled with hate and a demon-possessed soul. You have all that in common with that like-minded atheist ‘Lefty’ and some others. Your attacks on me (and on my Lord and Master) CANNOT penetrate the armor of God! smile

Jesus the Christ is your ONLY hope! Seek Him earnestly and with humility - before it’s too late!

“Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well.

Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.”

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7

****************

All Hail the Prophet DogShit!  Let us hex the Pentateuch and add The Book of DogShit!  He hears The Lord in his ear and relates The Lord’s Divine Will to us!

It’s these phony-baloney threats from you (not God, not Jesus—just you, the TRUE windbag) that sound like:
“You better watch out
You better not cry
You better not shout
I’m telling why
DogShit says God’s coming to town!

He’s making His list
and checking it twice
He’s gonna find out
who’s naughty or nice
DogShit says God’s coming to town!

He knows when you are sleeping
He knows when you’re awake
He knows if you’re Agnostic or Faithful
So toe the line is DogShit’s take!”

I have TERRIBLE news for you, DogShit. You are not a prophet of God, Jesus, Buddha, Siva, Zeus, or even The Great Pumpkin. You are nothing but a pompous, self-righteous, close-minded, hate-filled bigot, who hates Jews with the passion of an Adolph Hitler and tries to hide it by pretending you hate Zionists.  And who are Zionists? Why, EVERY Jew who hasn’t accepted Jesus as the Messiah.  We have a word for Jews who accept Jesus as the Messiah: We call them “Christians”, not Jews.

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By GodSend, July 30, 2007 at 9:54 am Link to this comment

Windbag:

You are like a condemned prisoner on Death Row: A “Dead Man, Walking!”

The incessant stream of lies and filth spewing forth from your mouth, reveal a mind diseased with agnosticism, a black heart filled with hate and a demon-possessed soul. You have all that in common with that like-minded atheist ‘Lefty’ and some others. Your attacks on me (and on my Lord and Master) CANNOT penetrate the armor of God! smile

Jesus the Christ is your ONLY hope! Seek Him earnestly and with humility - before it’s too late!

“Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well.

Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.”

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7

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By hiram, July 30, 2007 at 7:53 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Time to pull the plug on this puppy and put it out of its misery.

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By Fadel Abdallah, July 29, 2007 at 9:43 pm Link to this comment
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#90678 by Robert on 7/29 at 1:03 pm
(286 comments total)
Israel voices satisfaction over U.S. aid increase
Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:26AM EDT

“JERUSALEM, July 29 (Reuters) - Prime Minister Ehud Olmert voiced satisfaction on Sunday over Washington’s intention to offset a package of arms sales to Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states with increased military aid for Israel.
================
I read this disturbing piece of news about the Bush’ administration further militarizing the Middle East and preparing the ground for further future military conflicts that will continue beyond his stupid presidency. I am more opposed to U.S. arming Arab countries than even arming Israel, especially Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

Arming Saudi Arabia and Egypt is not intended to counter the Iranian power as the false propaganda goes. It is intended to give these two very unpopular and anti-nationalistic regimes longer leases on life. En essence, it is a way to arrest the appearance of progressive democratic political systems in these two largest and most strategic Arab countries.

And every time the U.S. will make an arm’s deal with any Arab country, for which they have to pay dearly at the expense of development in other civil areas of lives for their citizens, in the name of “balancing” and appeasing Israel and its American-ruling lobby, the American citizens have to bear the burden of these billions given free to Israel. The money they will make on the deals with Saudi Arabia and Egypt will be certainly offset by the larger amount of monies given to Israel from tax-payers’ sweat. And future generation of tax-paying Americans, besides the financial burden, will also get continued hatred and mistrust for allowing their supposedly democratic governments to continue their short-sighted and militaristic approach to dealing with the Middle East.

Any way you look at it, it is a no-win situation for both the U.S. and the Middle East. And the persisting question begging an answer is: When are Americans going to wake up and put an end to all the evil and mischief their political-military establishments are doing in their names and with their treasury?!

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By Inherit The Wind, July 29, 2007 at 8:21 pm Link to this comment
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ITW, well and fairly stated. This is more like it. I am looking forward to a very interesting discussion.

Thanks, TW.  Please don’t take my following comments as an attack.

Let me just start off by saying that maybe Israelis should try writing a consitution themselves, one that enshrines the same democratic principles as the American one.

I believe they have one already, and actually abide by it.

Could they do that and still be a Jewish state? I don’t see how it’s possible. And if they had a consititutional convention to writeone, and did not invite representatives of some 40% of the population residing in the area because they are not Jewish, how would that look?

There are several assumptions here you make I have to disagree with.  Of course, the first is that they do NOT have a constitution.  Second, why would ANYBODY invite people who don’t live IN their country to participate?  It just doesn’t make sense.  IF such a constitutional convention were to include the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan then you might have an argument that those people need to be represented at the convention.  You also keep assuming (and this drives me batty) that ONLY the Jews are required to live up this standard. The Arabs who live in the Middle East as a rule do NOT live up to that standard—you don’t see such constitutional conventions taking place in MOST of the Arab states—Iraq seems to be the only one and we both know that’s forced.

You also continually ignore the fact that there are 22 Arab Moslem states and virtually ALL of them discriminate against ethnic and religious minorities—but only Israel is held to a higher standard.

On the contrary, Israel has from the inception behaved as a lawless state not subject to either constitutional or international law.

This is one of those assumptions made here that’s based on little but propaganda. Yet everyone who is anti-Israel takes it as a given.  I reject this fundamental premise as false. Furthermore, I CONTINUE to ask: What about Israel’s neighbors and their lawlessness?  Yet it is completely ignored, swept under the rug, or out-and-out lies and fabrications are presented to “prove” they are humane and democratic states—AS IF Qadaffi, Mubarrak or the Sauds are about to run honest elections and step down if they lose.  To your credit, you haven’t put THAT nonsense forth.

We can rely no more on the good nature of Jews than on that of the rest of humanity. Jews are like everybody else, no better and no worse.

Can’t argue with that.  I’ve said it before: All religions are failures because they are UNABLE to convince their followers to go in the same general direction.  Gandhi and his assassin were both devout Hindus.  Rabin and his assassin, Emir, were both devout Jews. Sadat and his assassins were devout Moslems. Mother Theresa and DogShit are both devout Christians.

Also, for the third time, please do read “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”. I think it will enrich our discussion.

Not really. He begins with the assertion that there was no attack on the new state of Israel in 1948.  Truly absurd. Also, I don’t know if he says it or a reviewer says it, but there’s the claim that rape was common.  I find it impossible to believe that any Jewish organization, even terrorist, would advocate rape as a policy any more than they would eating pork.  It’s possible that rape was covered up, possibly even condoned, but as a policy it makes no sense.

Furthermore, the use of Ethnic Cleansing only in regards to Israel denies that 900,000 Jews were “ethnically cleansed” from Arab states and pretty either made their way to Israel or the US and Canada.  Is this dealt with? No.  All that’s posted here is phony propaganda that this didn’t happen—and I KNOW people it happened to.

Tony: I keep hammering on the double standard.  Peace can NEVER be achieved if only Israel is held to that standard, but not Arab states.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 29, 2007 at 5:34 pm Link to this comment
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GodSend on 7/29 at 7:37 am
(184 comments total)

PS to TW:

By your definition of anti-Semitism, true followers of Jesus the Christ are also:

anti-Ecumenists
anti-Humanists
etc.

The ‘litmus test’ for the enemies of Christ and enemy of ALL Christians is:

WHOEVER denies the Deity of Jesus the Christ!

That doesn’t mean we don’t distinguish among these many enemies of Christ. For example, the worst enemies are those who deny the existence of God (atheists and agnostics) and those who worship Christ’s arch-enemy: SATAN (they are know as Zionists!)

Are you getting warmer???

****************

DogShit you are such dogshit.  By your INSANE definition, I am far more evil than Son of Sam, Wayne Williams, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, John Gacy and all the other serial killers.

Why? Because I am Agnostic.  That is solely, completely and TOTALLY your reason for preferring the company of such human monsters to me.

You would rather trust your innocent children to any of them, who would rape and torture them, than to me—who would merely ask them questions to make them think, and possibly doubt your teachings.

THAT is what you value.  That is what you are. That is why you are nothing but dogshit.

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By Tony Wicher, July 29, 2007 at 4:50 pm Link to this comment

#90574 by Inherit The Wind on 7/29 at 5:25 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“But that is a LONG TIME action by the Church—to mistake Wicca, Judaism and Satanism, as all the same thing when all 3 are completely and totally different from each other as they are from the Aztec religion.”

ITW, Satan is only the rebellious, disobedient spirit of man that the Church wishes it could get rid of so we would all be sheep. Me, I’m more of a goat. Satan deserves some respect. He’s a part of us all.

“Just because you live by those principles doesn’t mean the people in this conflict in the Middle East live by them.  I certainly don’t think either Netanyahu or Hamas live by them.”

ITW: That’s for sure. No argument there. If they lived by those principles, there would be no conflict.

“Remember what the writers of our Constitution thought: They ASSUMED that people were corrupt and wrote a documentto counteract that—and ONLY the blatant corruption of Bush and the dominant party for 6 years have been able to get around their checks and balances.

That is the problem with your solution—you assume the BEST of the people involved and I assume less than the best.  If you are right then peace would happen nicely.  But if I am right, and, sadly, I am, then attempting a one-state solution will be a human disaster that will unleash more evil than has happened in the sad history of the last 100 years.  Your “solution” has no fail-safe mechanism when peoples’ worse side takes over from their “better angel”.  That, Tony, is what I mean by naive.”

ITW, well and fairly stated. This is more like it. I am looking forward to a very interesting discussion. Let me just start off by saying that maybe Israelis should try writing a consitution themselves, one that enshrines the same democratic principles as the American one. Could they do that and still be a Jewish state? I don’t see how it’s possible. And if they had a consititutional convention to writeone, and did not invite representatives of some 40% of the population residing in the area because they are not Jewish, how would that look? 

On the contrary, Israel has from the inception behaved as a lawless state not subject to either constitutional or international law. We can rely no more on the good nature of Jews than on that of the rest of humanity. Jews are like everybody else, no better and no worse.

Also, for the third time, please do read “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”. I think it will enrich our discussion.

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By Tony Wicher, July 29, 2007 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment

#90575 by Frank Goodman, Sr. on 7/29 at 5:33 am
(35 comments total)

Re: #90559 by Tony Wicher on 7/29 at 12:40 am

“Oh ho! Did I hit a sensitive spot? Sorry guy.”
===================================================
Wrong, Frank. I do have a religion, that’s for sure, but it isn’t Judaism. I don’t belong to, or identify with, any particular religious tradition. I’m a philosopher who has studied many religious traditions. Based on my personal experience, I have come to believe that that there is an absolute religious truth that is to be found only within the depths of one’s own mind and heart. Nothing else is worthy of being called sacred. This has been expressed in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc. Christians have called it Jesus, the Holy Spirit, etc. But no words can give even a hint of what that is, and people must find it within themselves. It seems that all people generally have is the words, the Scriptures, which have been dinned into their heads from childhood and which they repeat endlessly for thousands of years. Their so-called religion is nothing but a fight about whose ancient propaganda you should be brainwashed with. There are no sacred books, no sacred words.

No, Frank, my religion is about peace and universal compassion, but it comes from the heart, not from any scripture, not from any religious tradition. What I am hearing on this blog is a lot of hate coming from all sides, not just from Zionists. I’m sensitive to that, all right.

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By Robert, July 29, 2007 at 2:03 pm Link to this comment

Israel voices satisfaction over U.S. aid increase
Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:26AM EDT

“JERUSALEM, July 29 (Reuters) - Prime Minister Ehud Olmert voiced satisfaction on Sunday over Washington’s intention to offset a package of arms sales to Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states with increased military aid for Israel.

He said he and U.S. President George W. Bush, in talks at the White House last month, agreed Israel would receive $30 billion in U.S.
military aid over the next decade, averaging $3 billion a year.

“This is an increase of 25 percent for the military aid to Israel from the United States. I think this is a significant and important improvement of the defence aid to Israel,” Olmert told reporters.

He spoke a day after a senior U.S. defence official said Washington was working on a military assistance deal for Israel expected to top $30 billion over the next 10 years.

The aid boost has been widely seen as a U.S. bid to help allay Israeli concerns over a package of arms sales, that could be worth some $20 billion over the next decade, which Washington is preparing for Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states.

“We understand the United States’ need to assist the moderate Arab states, which are standing in one front with the United States and us in the struggle against Iran,” Olmert said, referring to Tehran’s nuclear programme.

A U.S. defence official said on Saturday the Bush administration hoped to present the regional package to the U.S. Congress for approval later in the year.

Washington is striving to assure Gulf allies, worried by the growing strength of Iran and war in Iraq, that the United States is committed to the region and will stand by them, with arms sales part of that process, U.S. officials say.

The package for Saudi Arabia would upgrade its missile defences and air force and increase its naval capabilities, the official said.

The United States also is preparing a package of military assistance worth some $13 billion in the next decade for Egypt, another U.S. ally in the Middle East, a senior State Department official said. (Additional reporting by Andrew Grey in Washington and Avida Landau in Jerusalem)”
================================================

ISRAEL WILL RECEIVE $30 BILLION DOLLARS OF AMERICAN MILITARY AID…ALL FOR FREE!!!

SAUDI ARABIA WILL PAY FOR THEIR PURCHASE!

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL29316748

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By Neoconned, July 29, 2007 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment
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#90597 by GodSend on 7/29 at 7:37 am

Puh-Leeeeezzzze!

Are you from Liberty University, by any chance?
I think I saw some pictures of your dioramas:  Happy smiling cave men with a pack Utah Raptors running in the background.

Or maybe you are from Pat Robertson’s Regent University.  Those faith based lawyers now working in the Justice department.

You have faith I see.  However I see pride in you also.
May I quote from the Bible.  Something you may want to consider:

CORINTHIANS 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

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By GodSend, July 29, 2007 at 8:37 am Link to this comment

PS to TW:

By your definition of anti-Semitism, true followers of Jesus the Christ are also:

anti-Ecumenists
anti-Humanists
etc.

The ‘litmus test’ for the enemies of Christ and enemy of ALL Christians is:

WHOEVER denies the Deity of Jesus the Christ!

That doesn’t mean we don’t distinguish among these many enemies of Christ. For example, the worst enemies are those who deny the existence of God (atheists and agnostics) and those who worship Christ’s arch-enemy: SATAN (they are know as Zionists!)

Are you getting warmer???

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By GodSend, July 29, 2007 at 8:18 am Link to this comment

TW:

Let me clue you in on the pure essence of all followers of Christ, sometimes called ‘Christians’:

We believe that: Jesus the Christ is the ‘Alpha and Omega’, the beginning and the end. He and the Father are ONE! He said: “No one comes to the Father except through Me” and “When you have seen Me, you have seen the Father”. Add to that what I wrote earlier about the enemies of God (Christ) and therefore the enemies of ALL followers of Jesus the Christ.

IF that is your definition of anti-Semitism,

THEN, by God, ALL of us followers of Christ are:

anti-Semites
anti-Zionists
anti-Buddhists
anti-Hindus
anti-atheists
anti-agnostics
anti-Theists
anti-Muslims
anti-Satanists
etc.

If you are not with Christ, then you are against (anti) Him!

Believe what you like! No true follower of Christ will persecute anyone for not being a follower of Christ! BUT we will NEVER surrender the pure essence of our faith - in Christ Jesus! On the other hand, we expect to be persecuted for this stand, just as Jesus told us: “If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. A servant is not greater than his master” smile

We are engaged in Spiritual Warfare against ALL enemies of Christ, including, but not limited to Semites. Semites are nothing ‘special’ - though they like to think of themselves as something ‘special’! wink

Are you warmed up yet???

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., July 29, 2007 at 6:33 am Link to this comment

Re: #90559 by Tony Wicher on 7/29 at 12:40 am

Oh ho! Did I hit a sensitive spot? Sorry guy.

When in a forest look at the trees. When in a crowd of naked people, look at the faces. The face is the closest part of the external anatomy to the mind. The body is clothed with cloth, which is somewhat transparent, but no detail is seen beyond curves and bony shapes. The mind is clothed in belief, which is somewhat transparent, but no reason is seen beyond the whips and turns of logic and horny images.

The face is the mirror of the mind. It should be unclothed, but religion is the clothing of the soul. The soul should never be seen unclad lest some primitive emotion should overwhelm the senses.

My sincere apology.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 29, 2007 at 6:25 am Link to this comment
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Tony Wicher on 7/28 at 11:43 pm
(176 comments total)

Re #90485 by GodSend on 7/28 at 3:56 pm

“Both Zionism and Judaism deny the Deity of Christ! That makes them enemies of God (Christ) and enemies of the followers of Christ.”

This is the purest essence of anti-Semitism. You are so convicted out of your own mouth that nothing more needs to be said. I guess for every Lefty there has to be someone like you.

ITW,

I am sorry that rational discussion is being interfered with by this kind of crap. At least you and I can talk. So, what about my challenge to read “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”? I believe in its historical accuracy. If you don’t think it is, show me. I can be open-minded. For now, however, when you call me not anti-Semitic but “naive”, I must respond that you are telling me that democracy, human rights and even common decency are naive, a position which I reject.

Tony,
I guess you are seeing what I face here all the time.  Now DogShit is condemning YOU to hell as he has me.  He is calling himself a “messanger of God”, almost claiming to be a prophet. He hates Jews and claims we are worshipers of Satan (maybe he should check in with the ACTUAL worshipers of Satan and their houses of worship).  But that is a LONG TIME action by the Church—to mistake Wicca, Judaism and Satanism, as all the same thing when all 3 are completely and totally different from each other as they are from the Aztec religion.

No, I don’t think advocating democracy, human rights and even common decency are naive—they are principles of morality.  What I think is naive is not the principles you live by, but rather the concrete steps you propose to solve this deep problem for all involved. 

Just because you live by those principles doesn’t mean the people in this conflict in the Middle East live by them.  I certainly don’t think either Netanyahu or Hamas live by them.

Remember what the writers of our Constitution thought: They ASSUMED that people were corrupt and wrote a documentto counteract that—and ONLY the blatant corruption of Bush and the dominant party for 6 years have been able to get around their checks and balances.

That is the problem with your solution—you assume the BEST of the people involved and I assume less than the best.  If you are right then peace would happen nicely.  But if I am right, and, sadly, I am, then attempting a one-state solution will be a human disaster that will unleash more evil than has happened in the sad history of the last 100 years.  Your “solution” has no fail-safe mechanism when peoples’ worse side takes over from their “better angel”.  That, Tony, is what I mean by naive.

Realistic solutions that get people to stop killing each other, and hold open the door to fixing things further by negotiation are the way to go.

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By Tony Wicher, July 29, 2007 at 1:40 am Link to this comment

Re #90336 by Frank Goodman, Sr. on 7/28 at 6:04 am

Oh, quit fuming, Frank. I can’t even understand what you’re saying. What I’m saying is that it’s absolutely essential to distinguish between Zionism and Judaism, and not to drag Jewish religion or culture into it when discussing the political and moral contradictions of Zionism. If you get them confused, both anti-Semitism and Zionism win, and democracy and human rights lose.

So, if you insist on continuing making disparaging remarks about Judaism, you are going to find me agreeing with ITW.

I am sick of all the anti-Semitism on this blog. There is a lot of it. I don’t to see any more of it, and since I am very clear about what anti-Semitism is and what it isn’t, I am not going to pull any punches. I’m just getting warmed up.

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By GodSend, July 29, 2007 at 1:18 am Link to this comment

TW:

You, too, are an enemy of Christ. You’ve said enough.

It’s OK to be an enemy of Christ - for the time being wink

Your knee will also bow! (eventually) - voluntarily! smile

For every one of you, there are millions more!

“EVERY knee shall bow”

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By Tony Wicher, July 29, 2007 at 12:43 am Link to this comment

Re #90485 by GodSend on 7/28 at 3:56 pm

“Both Zionism and Judaism deny the Deity of Christ! That makes them enemies of God (Christ) and enemies of the followers of Christ.”

This is the purest essence of anti-Semitism. You are so convicted out of your own mouth that nothing more needs to be said. I guess for every Lefty there has to be someone like you.

ITW,

I am sorry that rational discussion is being interfered with by this kind of crap. At least you and I can talk. So, what about my challenge to read “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”? I believe in its historical accuracy. If you don’t think it is, show me. I can be open-minded. For now, however, when you call me not anti-Semitic but “naive”, I must respond that you are telling me that democracy, human rights and even common decency are naive, a position which I reject.

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By GodSend, July 28, 2007 at 4:56 pm Link to this comment

PS to Neoconned:

Who is advocating burning witches at the stake? If you’re referring to the ‘melting’ of the ‘rebellious house of Israel’, that’s taken directly from Scripture (OT). If you want to argue that, you’ll have to argue it with God! wink I’m not advocating melting anyone - I’m simply pointing out one of God’s promises - and He ALWAYS keeps His promises (eventually)! God is determined (has promised) to eradicate Evil and cast the Devil into Hell - and He WILL! It’s simple, really. I’m just the messenger. smile

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By GodSend, July 28, 2007 at 4:42 pm Link to this comment

Neoconned:

Steady on, etc.

Steady on - by all means! Let’s have a look at what you wrote and implied here:

References like ‘Jews’, ‘Christians’ ‘Muslims’, etc. do NOT assert that ALL people who wear those labels are completely uniform in their beliefs (or behavior!). In the final analysis, it’s ALWAYS what an individual does and says that make him/her what they are, regardless of the label. I have no doubt that there are Jews who abhor the treatment of Palestinians by Israel and the IDF, etc. However, the State of Israel speaks for (for better or worse) its citizens, just like Bush speaks for (for worse!) Americans.

The same can be said for Zionists. There are undoubtedly some people who innocently believe that Israel was founded as a wonderful homeland for Jews and support Israel financially and otherwise, unaware (or unwilling to acknowledge - IN DENIAL) that a bunch of murderous cutthroats (Israel’s leaders - most, not necessarily all) have seized control. Awareness of the Evil is a relative thing with Israelis.

Yes, Jesus WAS a Jew according to Jewish law - so were ALL His disciples! Does it make any sense to say that God is a Jew?! Christ had some VERY uncomplimentary things to say about Jewish religious leaders (you can get details at http://www.jewishracism.com).

The fact is that Jews (other than Messianic Jews) deny the Deity of Christ and that makes them enemies of Christ (anti-Christs) - just like Zionists are enemies of Christ (and so are Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, etc.) NEVER is violence and bloodshed against ANY religious group justified - and CANNOT be justified by true followers of Christ. Did so-called ‘Christians’ persecute non-believers throughout history? Of course - but that does not make them right! The Crusades and slaughter of Muslims were terrible mistakes! Those who committed them will be judged at the Day of Judgment.

Where does humanitarianism and being a ‘nice’ person fit into this? The Golden Rule applies to all (and should be followed by all). Jewish racism and exclusivity rejects this fundamental principle and not only distorts the principle with “an eye for an eye” but trashes it by the treatment of Palestinians by certain Jews (SOME members of the IDF), acting on behalf of the State of Israel. Not all members of the IDF think this is right (and some resist), just like some American soldiers refuse to murder (Iraqi) civilians or serve in Iraq (Lt. Ehren Watada).

An INDIVIDUAL is justified (or not) by what he/she DOES foremost, then what he/she says. It’s always dangerous to wear (or use) the label of a group because it may conceal crucial differences. These factors must be understood, if not explicitly expressed, in any sort of general discussion where group labels are used. Exceptions prove the rule and room must always be made for exceptions on an individual basis.

So, when I say ‘Zionists’, I mean all those who willingly and consciously subscribe to and practice the core beliefs of Zionism. When I say ‘Jews’, I mean all those who live by the laws and principles of Judaism. When I say ‘Christians’ I mean all those who are true followers of Christ (and try their utmost to live in accordance with His teachings). Certainly, there are ‘Jews’ who are not Jews, ‘Christians’ who are not Christians, ‘Zionists’ who are not Zionists, ‘Muslims’ who are not Muslims, etc. Many are pretenders or hypocrites and do not deserve the label they put on their lapel (Bush, for example, calling himself a Christian or wearing an American Flag pin - he is a traitor to America, who consciously trashes the Constitution, etc.) There are ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’!

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By Messenger, July 28, 2007 at 3:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Extermination is the only thing ‘God’s Chosen” understand. Tick tock Izzy. Tick tock.

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By Neoconned, July 28, 2007 at 3:06 pm Link to this comment
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#90436 by GodSend on 7/28 at 12:38 pm

Steady on.  It’s bad enough having Zionists twist facts and hide behind the Holocaust Victimhood pretence of religious piety; That doesn’t mean there are not Jews who don’t agree with the injustice that was done in Palestine.  And I must say I disagree strongly with your sentiments.  If nothing else, remember this:  Jesus was a Jew also.

(We are not living in the dark ages.  This is an age of Reason, so really no one should have an excuse to start burning witches at the stake.)

Indeed, there are Rabbis in the world who’s Humanism is an inspiration.  I was shocked when I heared their teachings.  Christ-like is what I would call it.  I wonder if Christ wasn’t unique in his teachings, after I read the thoughts of these Rabbis. Their humanity was unmistakable. 

I used to make the mistake of judging all Jews as though they were versions of that bigot, Benjamin Netanyahu.  This is not the case.  These true practitioners of Judaism have been warning for some one hundred years of not entering the Holy Land before the Prophet Elijah comes.  Otherwise a catastroph would await them.  Not only did Zionism engineer the creation of Israel, but did so by crushing and driving out the Palestinians. 

No religion is worth anything, no matter how much faith one has, if faith is all one has. Even if that faith can move mountains it is as nothing if one does not have charity (and compassion) for all mankind.

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By GodSend, July 28, 2007 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment

Robert:

CUFI and Hagee are an abomination to Christ! ZioChristians have been deceived by Zionists (Satanists who worship in the “Synagogue of Satan”) to support the Satanic State of Israel! There is a link on my website (http://novalight.org) which explains the occult Illuminati symbolism in the Jerusalem Supreme Court. Zionists do not worship Yahweh and they are NOT true (Torah) Jews! They worship Satan and the Golden Calf.

Both Zionism and Judaism deny the Deity of Christ! That makes them enemies of God (Christ) and enemies of the followers of Christ. The followers of Christ are engaged with these enemies in SPIRITUAL WARFARE, NOT physical warfare! Christ rebuked Peter for cutting off the Roman Centurion’s ear. We fight with the sword of the Spirit (God’s Word)!

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By GodSend, July 28, 2007 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment

TW:

The principle cause of anti-Semitism is Christianity. The Church is the fundamental cause of the persecution of Jews for the last two millenia. People like Godsend are as blind to this as Zionists are to the Nakba.

To the extent that the Church (mostly RCC) persecuted Jews, they were wrong to do so! The Church (or the system of Christianity) unfortunately has little to do with followers of Christ. Bloodshed is NOT condoned by followers of Christ. Religious persecution of ANYONE (including Jews) is NOT condoned by followers of Christ. People are entitled to cling to whatever fallacies they like! Followers of Christ believe in religious freedom. They also believe in informing non-believers about Jesus the Christ, Who He is and what He teaches. Salvation is the supernatural work of God - NOT of men!

So, you’re wrong, TW, I know very well that Christianity persecuted not only Jews but that the RCC persecuted non-Catholics (Inquisition, etc.)

All of the above notwithstanding, there is a great spiritual divide between Judaism and the followers of Christ. (I hesitate to use the term ‘Christianity’ because it has been infiltrated by MANY people (millions) who do NOT follow the teachings or example of Christ!) The term ‘anti-Semite’ is a Zionist propaganda term to cause animosity or even hatred between followers of Christ and Jews and to protect Zionism (and Jewish racism) from any valid criticism!

Religious persecution of ANY religious group is NOT acceptable to followers of Christ. Followers of Christ preach Christ and His Gospel (Good News). God willing, listeners will hear and heed His message. If not now, maybe later. If not later, that’s between God and whoever! We step aside but we do NOT persecute!

Did/do Jews (or any other group) DESERVE persecution? Only God can answer that question.

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By Robert, July 28, 2007 at 12:08 pm Link to this comment

The Unauthorized Christians United for Israel Tour

Posted July 26, 2007 | 02:20 AM (EST)
Read More: Breaking Politics News, White House, George W. Bush, U.S. Congress, John McCain, U.S. Republican Party, Tom DeLay


“On July 16, I attended Christians United for Israel’s annual Washington-Israel Summit. Founded by San Antonio-based megachurch pastor John Hagee, CUFI has added the grassroots muscle of the Christian right to the already potent Israel lobby. Hagee and his minions have forged close ties with the Bush White House and members of Congress from Sen. Joseph Lieberman to Sen. John McCain. In its call for a unilateral military attack on Iran and the expansion of Israeli territory, CUFI has found unwavering encouragement from traditional pro-Israel groups like AIPAC and elements of the Israeli government.

But CUFI has an ulterior agenda: its support for Israel derives from the belief of Hagee and his flock that Jesus will return to Jerusalem after the battle of Armageddon and cleanse the earth of evil. In the end, all the non-believers - Jews, Muslims, Hindus, mainline Christians, etc. - must convert or suffer the torture of eternal damnation. Over a dozen CUFI members eagerly revealed to me their excitement at the prospect of Armageddon occurring tomorrow. Among the rapture ready was Republican Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay. None of this seemed to matter to Lieberman, who delivered a long sermon hailing Hagee as nothing less than a modern-day Moses. Lieberman went on to describe Hagee’s flock as “even greater than the multitude Moses commanded.”

Throughout CUFI’s Israel Summit, videographer Thomas Shomaker and I were hounded by PR agents seeking to prevent us from interviewing attendees about the End Times. The conference, we were told, was about “one message” - evangelical Christians supporting Israel. We were instructed to only interview CUFI leaders capable of sticking to the talking point that their support for Israel has, as Hagee declared, “nothing to do with the End Times.” But I was forbidden from asking Hagee about statements he made in his book, “Jerusalem Countdown,” that appeared to blame Jews for their own persecution. After doing just that during a press conference, I was removed from the conference by off-duty DC cops summoned by members of Hagee’s family.

I have covered the Christian right intensely for over four years. During this time, I attended dozens of Christian right conferences, regularly monitored movement publications and radio shows, and interviewed scores of its key leaders. I have never witnessed any spectacle as politically extreme, outrageous, or bizarre as the one Christians United for Israel produced last week in Washington. See for yourself.”
==============================================
Click on the video to see & hear Tom DeLay’s comments…Here is the link”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/rapture-ready-the-unauth_b_57826.html

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., July 28, 2007 at 7:04 am Link to this comment

Re: #90304 by Tony Wicher on 7/28 at 12:51 am

OK Tony. Let us discuss the evils of fascism, but leave out any reference to Hitler and Mussolini. Let us rant about the current American political problems, but not mention George W. Bush. We could even take up some Civil War questions, but should not mention slavery. Voting rights could be a fair subject if we do not include women’s suffrage and Negro votes. We could have a debate on gay rights so long as we stick to the original meaning of gay. How about drunk driving, but not bring up alcohol, social drinking and X-mass office parties that include Jews and Orientals.

I should think it possible to discuss any subject by carefully stepping around any talk that might disturb anyone. You can even talk about me behind my back so long as I never get a whiff of it. Even use certain epithets bleeped out.

You win Tony, from now on I shall refrain from offending Jews, non-Jews, women, men, children, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Christians, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Democrats, Republicans, communists, socialists, AMA, etc. When I have anything to say about what I consider to be wrong, I will simply indicate the sensitive words and names by use of an appropriate number of X’s.

To end this, I XXXX the XXXXXXX XXXXXXXX because of what they do to XXXXXXXXX and to those they XXXXXXX. BTW if the XXXXXX-XXXXXXX don’t like it they can go to XXXX. If you don’t like any word or nuance, you can bleep it out as you read. Just let the bells of your memory and knowledge of history and truth ring just at the right time to keep anyone from being offended just in case they get into your mind. If anything brings an ecstatic response in your mind, just muffle it long enough to keep anyone from noticing.

Never doubt the XXXXXXXXX. God bless XXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX and all his kids.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 28, 2007 at 5:42 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Nahida:
EVERYTHING you posted is a complete and total lie.  Jewish Law FORBIDS cheating and murdering of non-Jews.  Your quotes and sources are all pure Arab propaganda and have NO basis in fact.

Next you’ll be posting as a source “The Protocols of The Elders of Zion”, a crude and clumsy forgery created by the Tsar’s secret police in the 19th century to help justify pogroms.

Truthdig has become nothing but another Islamic Brotherhood propaganda website.

You post ANY garbage, any lie, as long is it continues the myth of Jewish evil and NOBODY vets it because it fits right into the philosophy of the owners of this site:

Oh, all the problems in the world will vanish if only we KILL ALL THE JEWS!

Nahida—your people will STILL be slaughtering each other over power, land and minute differences in interpretation of the words of the Prophet.  If only you Moslems would simply follow your own 5 Pillars of Islam, you wouldn’t be in all the messes and all the wars you are in. 

Tony:
While you are far more civilized than most of your anti-Israel compadres, I can’t help if you want to read Robert’s propaganda.  It says what you want to hear, so you don’t challenge it.

What you probably want, and I want, is a LEGITIMATE forum where both Israeli and Palestinian actions can be held up to scrutiny FAIRLY.  No matter WHAT characters like Robert et al say, I am HIGHLY critical of Israel and think much they have done, particularly under the Likud, was not only horrible, but stupid.

Likewise, I think the Palestinians and the other Arab leaders are equally guilty of horrendous crimes.

There have been numerous chances for peace but BOTH sides have alternately squandered them.  On this site there has NEVER been a legitimate discussion as to how to make peace.  You advocate Israel totally giving in, abandoning its nationhood, and granting citizenship to people who openly and actively advocate murdering every Jew.  That’s no answer.

The answer is to find a way to get both sides to live side by side and GET USED to peace.  Yes, there will be inequities.  But there’s a mechanism to resolve them which doesn’t need AK-47s, Uzzis, or Katusha rockets. It’s called DIPLOMACY!

But for now, Palestinians need to accept that they aren’t going to take over Israel.  And Israel needs to remove most, if not all of the settlements, and move that wall back to more equitable boundaries.

I don’t have a complete list of the things both side need to do, but both need to COMPROMISE enough to establish peace.  And, as long as both sides issue absurd ultimatums it won’t happen.  And as long as the Netanyahu and Hamas types on either side keep screaming for destruction and holy war against the other, without their own people tossing them out, peace is damn near impossible.  But not impossible.

I THINK we would agree that President ShitHead not only neglected his obligation, he has COMPLETELY screwed it up because of his total incompetence and corruption.  Yet another golden opportunity squandered—just like the chance to normalize relations with Iran after 9/11 and during the Afghan War.

For the record Tony, I don’t think you are anti-semitic.  I do think you are naive and wedded to an idea that cannot work and refuse to acknowledge the facts of why it cannot work.

I think you want to roll the dice with other peoples’ lives and the stakes, if you are wrong, are far too horrible to consider.

(Except for DogShit who’s peeing all over himself with excitement at the thought of 5.5 million dead Jews in Israel)

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By nahida, July 28, 2007 at 2:39 am Link to this comment

Judaic sources on the attitude towards gentiles

http://www.israelshamir.net/Hebrew/Heb11.htm#_Toc41644579
Excerpts from the horse’s mouth:

{killing gentiles and saving their lives:

-It is permissible (and even commanded) for anyone to kill idolatrous Jews (and those Jews, including atheists and agnostics, who publicly reject the divine authority of Halacha) anywhere and anytime it is possible
 
-It is forbidden to save a gentile who is in mortal danger or cure him from a fatal condition, even for payment, unless there is a danger that a failure to do so will cause animosity towards Jews


Robbing, cheating and returning lost items to a gentile

According to some halachic sources, robbing and stealing from a gentile is permissible in principle, and forbidden only because (and when) there is a danger that it will cause the profaning of God’s name or that it may cause harm to Jews


Business relations


It is forbidden for a Jew to consume some food products made by a gentile

According to one opinion, it’s a special Torah commandment to take high interest on loans to a gentile. Also according to this same opinion, one mustn’t forgive the debt of a gentile or postpone its payment date.

The place of gentiles in Jewish political and judicial systems

According to some opinions when the Jews rule over gentiles they mustn’t let a gentile live in our land and even not let a gentile pass through our land on his way elsewhere.

Emotional and social attitude towards gentiles

A Jew passing gentile graves or seeing a multitude of gentiles must declare: “Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bare you shall be ashamed: behold, the hindermost of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert” (Jeremiah 50:12). A Jew passing a church (and according to one opinion any gentile residence) must say: “The Lord will destroy the house of the proud” (Proverbs 15:25).

It is forbidden to sell real estate to a gentile in the Land of Israel. Some kinds of real estate are not even to be rented to a gentile in the Land of Israel. This law does not preclude transactions between a Jew and a ger toshav.

A Jew must pray every day “Blessed be the Lord for not making me a gentile.”}

read more:
Judaic sources on the attitude towards gentiles
By Leon Zilberstein et al.

http://www.talkreason.org/articles/gentiles.cfm

Righteous Jews

http://www.righteousjews.org/

The Laws Against Non-Jews
From: “Jewish History, Jewish Religion:
The Weight of Three Thousand Years”
by Professor Israel Shahak


http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/books/jewhis/jewhis5.htm
By Israewl Shahak

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By Tony Wicher, July 28, 2007 at 2:06 am Link to this comment

#90229 by Inherit The Wind on 7/27 at 6:35 pm

“Thank you Robert for rendering another interesting thread moribund by posting half a dozen long, boring propaganda-filled threads that mean NOTHING.
I think Frank Goodman, Sr. may be the only one who actually read them…I guess he has nothing better to do.”
—————————————————————————-
ITW,
Pappe’s work is the finest historical scholarship, not propaganda. You should try to suspend judgment and read “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.”  If there is one single statement in it that you can prove is false, I would like to see it.

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By nahida, July 28, 2007 at 1:59 am Link to this comment

Now, they’ve even got the new British Prime Minister in their pockets!

Brown takes on Jewish National Funds (JNF) role

27/07/2007

by Daniella Peled

http://www.thejc.com/home.aspx?ParentId=m11&SecId=11&AId=54262&ATypeId=1

JNF UK, one of Anglo-Jewry’s leading charities, has secured Gordon Brown as its latest patron, the JC can reveal.

The Prime Minister accepted the role following an invitation from JNF UK president Gail Seal, who wrote conveying her good wishes the day after he took office.

In a letter to Mrs Seal, the PM responded that “your congratulations and good wishes are very much appreciated” and that he was “delighted to accept your offer to become a patron of JNF UK”.

A spokesman for Mr Brown told the JC: “The Prime Minister supports a number of charities and has agreed to become a patron of the Jewish National Fund UK in order to encourage their work to promote charitable projects for everyone who lives in Israel.”

Mrs Seal said she was “very proud that Gordon Brown has agreed to become patron of JNF UK. This will enhance what is already a close relationship with the UK Jewish community, and help us progress in our tremendously successful campaign to bring new communities to the Negev.”

The PM joins other JNF UK patrons including Tony Blair, the Conservative leader, David Cameron, as well as Chief Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks, who is said to be a close friend of Mr Brown.

JNF UK raises £15 million a year, intended to promote “exclusively charitable projects in Israel”. Its fundraising events range from London-Israel plane rallies to the Green Sunday “telethon”.

The charity has faced its share of controversy. Currently, it risks being dragged into a storm surrounding a proposed Israeli law which would restrict the sale of JNF-owned land to non-Jews. The bill passed its preliminary reading in the Knesset last week.

In October 2005, Keren Kayemeth L’Yisrael-JNF parted ways from JNF UK in an acrimonious split which led to a High Court battle. The two sides have since been conducting a process of mediation to prevent a return to court.

In March, the Charity Commission dismissed allegations of irregularities at JNF UK’s head office after a former patron, David Lewis, pressed it to investigate a 100-page dossier of concerns.

Founded in 1901, the JNF (known as KKL in Israel) was the tool for buying up land in pre-state Israel. Current projects focus on developing the Galil and Negev regions.

Mr Brown has long been known for his support of Israel.

In a speech to Labour Friends of Israel in April, he recounted how his late father, a Church of Scotland minister, had taught him about “the trials and tribulations of the Jewish people, about the enormous suffering and loss during the Holocaust, as well as the extraordinary struggle he described to me of people to create this magnificent homeland”


More about JNF:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/JNF/Story1513.html


and recently :
The never-ending injustice, and racism:


Bill allocating land to Jews only passes preliminary reading:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/883536.html


{The Knesset plenum approved a bill Wednesday, in its preliminary reading, which calls for all lands under the Jewish National Fund (JNF) to be allocated to Jews only. The bill passed by a massive majority of 64 MKS to 16.

The bill, initiated by MK Uri Ariel (National Union-National Religious Party), MK Zeev Elkin (Kadima), and MK Moshe Kahlon (Likud), is geared to bypass a 2004 court ruling which annulled an Israel Lands Administration (ILA) policy that prevented Arabs from participating in bids to purchase land owned by the JNF.

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By Tony Wicher, July 28, 2007 at 1:51 am Link to this comment

Re #90254 by Frank Goodman, Sr. on 7/27 at 7:54 pm

I would really like to stick to a critique of Zionism as such, and leave Judaism out of it. To blame pre-Zionist Jews for their own persecution is anti-Semitic. The principle cause of anti-Semitism is Christianity. The Church is the fundamental cause of the persecution of Jews for the last two millenia. People like Godsend are as blind to this as Zionists are to the Nakba.

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By Robert, July 27, 2007 at 11:10 pm Link to this comment

Comment #90229 by ITW on 7/27

“Inherited the zionist wind/ill-lie-mamzer”
(unregistered commenter???)

The TRUTH about Palestine & your Israeli zionist killers has a penetrating & lasting pain for your kind.  You must be getting distressed & tormented from all those commenters/posters. Your zionism is getting exposed on a daily basis. The TRUTH is making its way to the surface and where more and more people have a chance to read and examine the information.

AIPAC’s control of the main stream news media had their way for a long, long time. Their monopoly of the news information/propaganda is fragmenting. The internet is the catalyst.

So, “inherited the zionist wind/ill-lie-mamzer”, your comments on truthdig are not working for your zionist cause. Your “anti-semitism” screams and tactics are all backfiring on you.

What happened to your sermon on civility and being civil? Nice try…eh! What I see coming out from your “hot zionist wind” direction is nothing close to being civil. I don’t think that you had anybody fooled.

Keep posting though…your posts do have a purpose on these forums. You are zionism’s spokesperson(s) and its mega-speaker! 

You better get used to hearing the TRUTH. Your zionism’s ideology is wrong.

Happy Trails!

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By Frank Goodman, Sr., July 27, 2007 at 8:54 pm Link to this comment

Re: #90242 by Tony Wicher on 7/27 at 6:59 pm

I am offended that Jews think that God favors them over me. Why, I have given God his due. Why doesn’t God give me at least as much status as he does to Jews? I am not against the Jews. More power to them if they can persuade God that they deserve special status. It seems to me that they have no special status at all.

“Judaism is the story of the Jews’ tribulations, but every other people is subject to the same laws of human nature.” Now, Tony, it seems that you have fallen into the trap and sound anti-Semitic. Do you really mean that Jews are not better or any worse than you or I? Surely you have heard that they are God’s chosen people. You certainly are not special to God, if you are not a Jew or if your mom was not a Jew. You may even now be in the shadow of an AIPAC agent. Watch it, my friend. I like you and would not wish you to fall astray on the ‘chosen people’ issue. If you are not a Jew or if you mom is not a Jew, then you cannot claim that you are equal with your nearest Jewish neighbor.

If my people ever go into slavery and have to make a hasty exodus, I hope that we can make it back to our original place on this planet. Or at least a place as good as the prime real estate that is Palestine AKA Israel.

In all seriousness, I advocate a single state in Palestine/Israel/Canaan/Samaria/Judea/Judastan/ or Judarabastan. It matters not what it is named for the geographers and for listing on the roles of the United Nations. I would be satisfied that it tries to guarantee freedom of religion, freedom of political expression, and equality before law. It would not actually matter if the Jews parade as God’s chosen people, so long as they stand before the law as citizens equal with Muslims, Christians, Ba’hai, Druze, Armenians, and Cherkas.

I would like for my Palestinian friends to stay here so I can visit them from time to time and that my Jewish friends stay so we can joke about the Jewish mythology. But, if they want to go to the new state, and live side by side with a variety of different religious views, OK. I am all for multi-cultural experiences for everyone. We are richer for it.

Please, Tony, watch your step. Don’t stir up the Semites. Let ‘em believe they are better than you and I. Let ‘em believe that God loves them more than he does Native Americans or Australian aborigines. They cause less trouble so long as they believe it and nobody challenges them to a dual with wet noodles and mushy logic.

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By Tony Wicher, July 27, 2007 at 7:59 pm Link to this comment

Re #90177 by Frank Goodman, Sr. on 7/27 at 2:57 pm

Re: #90033 by Robert on 7/27 at 7:15 am

“I find it amazing that God punishes the Jews over and over again and they still don’t get it.”

Again, Jews are like the rest of humanity. We are born into this world of sorrow and it becomes part of us as we become part of it. People’s lives mostly consist in the perpetuation of this karmic momentum process. A few, perhaps have the wisdom to step off of the karmic wheel, and these people are the hope of the world. Judaism is the story of the Jews’ tribulations, but every other people is subject to the same laws of human nature.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 27, 2007 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Thank you Robert for rendering another interesting thread moribund by posting half a dozen long, boring propaganda-filled threads that mean NOTHING.

You’ve killed another one and you STILL haven’t come up with an original idea of your own…You just quote propagandists and their propaganda…ad nauseum.  I think Frank Goodman, Sr. may be the only one who actually read them…I guess he has nothing better to do.

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