  |
 |
| |
|
|
|
 Iraq Vets Break Silence on Devastating Realities of WarPosted on Jul 12, 2007
Chris Hedges and Laila Al-Arian Truthdig contributor Chris Hedges teamed up with Laila Al-Arian for The Nation’s shocking report “The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witness,” in which American vets describe, in graphic detail that will challenge even the least fainthearted readers, “the disparity between the reality of the war and how it is portrayed by the US government and American media.” This article is from the July 30 issue of The Nation and can be viewed on The Nation website.
Over the past several months The Nation has interviewed fifty combat veterans of the Iraq War from around the United States in an effort to investigate the effects of the four-year-old occupation on average Iraqi civilians. These combat veterans, some of whom bear deep emotional and physical scars, and many of whom have come to oppose the occupation, gave vivid, on-the-record accounts. They described a brutal side of the war rarely seen on television screens or chronicled in newspaper accounts.
Their stories, recorded and typed into thousands of pages of transcripts, reveal disturbing patterns of behavior by American troops in Iraq. Dozens of those interviewed witnessed Iraqi civilians, including children, dying from American firepower. Some participated in such killings; others treated or investigated civilian casualties after the fact. Many also heard such stories, in detail, from members of their unit. The soldiers, sailors and marines emphasized that not all troops took part in indiscriminate killings. Many said that these acts were perpetrated by a minority. But they nevertheless described such acts as common and said they often go unreported--and almost always go unpunished.
Court cases, such as the ones surrounding the massacre in Haditha and the rape and murder of a 14-year-old in Mahmudiya, and news stories in the Washington Post, Time, the London Independent and elsewhere based on Iraqi accounts have begun to hint at the wide extent of the attacks on civilians. Human rights groups have issued reports, such as Human Rights Watch’s Hearts and Minds: Post-war Civilian Deaths in Baghdad Caused by U.S. Forces, packed with detailed incidents that suggest that the killing of Iraqi civilians by occupation forces is more common than has been acknowledged by military authorities.
This Nation investigation marks the first time so many on-the-record, named eyewitnesses from within the US military have been assembled in one place to openly corroborate these assertions.
While some veterans said civilian shootings were routinely investigated by the military, many more said such inquiries were rare. “I mean, you physically could not do an investigation every time a civilian was wounded or killed because it just happens a lot and you’d spend all your time doing that,” said Marine Reserve Lieut. Jonathan Morgenstein, 35, of Arlington, Virginia. He served from August 2004 to March 2005 in Ramadi with a Marine Corps civil affairs unit supporting a combat team with the Second Marine Expeditionary Brigade. (All interviewees are identified by the rank they held during the period of service they recount here; some have since been promoted or demoted.)
Veterans said the culture of this counterinsurgency war, in which most Iraqi civilians were assumed to be hostile, made it difficult for soldiers to sympathize with their victims--at least until they returned home and had a chance to reflect.
“I guess while I was there, the general attitude was, A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi,” said Spc. Jeff Englehart, 26, of Grand Junction, Colorado. Specialist Englehart served with the Third Brigade, First Infantry Division, in Baquba, about thirty-five miles northeast of Baghdad, for a year beginning in February 2004. “You know, so what?… The soldiers honestly thought we were trying to help the people and they were mad because it was almost like a betrayal. Like here we are trying to help you, here I am, you know, thousands of miles away from home and my family, and I have to be here for a year and work every day on these missions. Well, we’re trying to help you and you just turn around and try to kill us.”
He said it was only “when they get home, in dealing with veteran issues and meeting other veterans, it seems like the guilt really takes place, takes root, then.”
The Iraq War is a vast and complicated enterprise. In this investigation of alleged military misconduct, The Nation focused on a few key elements of the occupation, asking veterans to explain in detail their experiences operating patrols and supply convoys, setting up checkpoints, conducting raids and arresting suspects. From these collected snapshots a common theme emerged. Fighting in densely populated urban areas has led to the indiscriminate use of force and the deaths at the hands of occupation troops of thousands of innocents.
Many of these veterans returned home deeply disturbed by the disparity between the reality of the war and the way it is portrayed by the US government and American media. The war the vets described is a dark and even depraved enterprise, one that bears a powerful resemblance to other misguided and brutal colonial wars and occupations, from the French occupation of Algeria to the American war in Vietnam and the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory.
“I’ll tell you the point where I really turned,” said Spc. Michael Harmon, 24, a medic from Brooklyn. He served a thirteen-month tour beginning in April 2003 with the 167th Armor Regiment, Fourth Infantry Division, in Al-Rashidiya, a small town near Baghdad. “I go out to the scene and [there was] this little, you know, pudgy little 2-year-old child with the cute little pudgy legs, and I look and she has a bullet through her leg.... An IED [improvised explosive device] went off, the gun-happy soldiers just started shooting anywhere and the baby got hit. And this baby looked at me, wasn’t crying, wasn’t anything, it just looked at me like--I know she couldn’t speak. It might sound crazy, but she was like asking me why. You know, Why do I have a bullet in my leg?… I was just like, This is--this is it. This is ridiculous.”
Much of the resentment toward Iraqis described to The Nation by veterans was confirmed in a report released May 4 by the Pentagon. According to the survey, conducted by the Office of the Surgeon General of the US Army Medical Command, just 47 percent of soldiers and 38 percent of marines agreed that civilians should be treated with dignity and respect. Only 55 percent of soldiers and 40 percent of marines said they would report a unit member who had killed or injured “an innocent noncombatant.”
These attitudes reflect the limited contact occupation troops said they had with Iraqis. They rarely saw their enemy. They lived bottled up in heavily fortified compounds that often came under mortar attack. They only ventured outside their compounds ready for combat. The mounting frustration of fighting an elusive enemy and the devastating effect of roadside bombs, with their steady toll of American dead and wounded, led many troops to declare an open war on all Iraqis.
Veterans described reckless firing once they left their compounds. Some shot holes into cans of gasoline being sold along the roadside and then tossed grenades into the pools of gas to set them ablaze. Others opened fire on children. These shootings often enraged Iraqi witnesses.
In June 2003 Staff Sgt. Camilo Mejía’s unit was pressed by a furious crowd in Ramadi. Sergeant Mejía, 31, a National Guardsman from Miami, served for six months beginning in April 2003 with the 1-124 Infantry Battalion, Fifty-Third Infantry Brigade. His squad opened fire on an Iraqi youth holding a grenade, riddling his body with bullets. Sergeant Mejía checked his clip afterward and calculated that he had personally fired eleven rounds into the young man.
“The frustration that resulted from our inability to get back at those who were attacking us led to tactics that seemed designed simply to punish the local population that was supporting them,” Sergeant Mejía said.
We heard a few reports, in one case corroborated by photographs, that some soldiers had so lost their moral compass that they’d mocked or desecrated Iraqi corpses. One photo, among dozens turned over to The Nation during the investigation, shows an American soldier acting as if he is about to eat the spilled brains of a dead Iraqi man with his brown plastic Army-issue spoon.
“Take a picture of me and this motherfucker,” a soldier who had been in Sergeant Mejía’s squad said as he put his arm around the corpse. Sergeant Mejía recalls that the shroud covering the body fell away, revealing that the young man was wearing only his pants. There was a bullet hole in his chest.
“Damn, they really fucked you up, didn’t they?” the soldier laughed.
The scene, Sergeant Mejía said, was witnessed by the dead man’s brothers and cousins.
In the sections that follow, snipers, medics, military police, artillerymen, officers and others recount their experiences serving in places as diverse as Mosul in the north, Samarra in the Sunni Triangle, Nasiriya in the south and Baghdad in the center, during 2003, 2004 and 2005. Their stories capture the impact of their units on Iraqi civilians.
The Nation interviewed fifty combat veterans, including forty soldiers, eight marines and two sailors, over a period of seven months beginning in July 2006. To find veterans willing to speak on the record about their experiences in Iraq, we sent queries to organizations dedicated to US troops and their families, including Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, the antiwar groups Military Families Speak Out, Veterans for Peace and Iraq Veterans Against the War and the prowar group Vets for Freedom. The leaders of IVAW and Paul Rieckhoff, the founder of IAVA, were especially helpful in putting us in touch with Iraq War veterans. Finally, we found veterans through word of mouth, as many of those we interviewed referred us to their military friends.
To verify their military service, when possible we obtained a copy of each interviewee’s DD Form 214, or the Certificate of Release or Discharge From Active Duty, and in all cases confirmed their service with the branch of the military in which they were enlisted. Nineteen interviews were conducted in person, while the rest were done over the phone; all were tape-recorded and transcribed; all but five interviewees (most of those currently on active duty) were independently contacted by fact checkers to confirm basic facts about their service in Iraq. Of those interviewed, fourteen served in Iraq from 2003 to 2004, twenty from 2004 to 2005 and two from 2005 to 2006. Of the eleven veterans whose tours lasted less than one year, nine served in 2003, while the others served in 2004 and 2005.
The ranks of the veterans we interviewed ranged from private to captain, though only a handful were officers. The veterans served throughout Iraq, but mostly in the country’s most volatile areas, such as Baghdad, Tikrit, Mosul, Falluja and Samarra.
During the course of the interview process, five veterans turned over photographs from Iraq, some of them graphic, to corroborate their claims.
Raids
“So we get started on this day, this one in particular,” recalled Spc. Philip Chrystal, 23, of Reno, who said he raided between twenty and thirty Iraqi homes during an eleven-month tour in Kirkuk and Hawija that ended in October 2005, serving with the Third Battalion, 116th Cavalry Brigade. “It starts with the psy-ops vehicles out there, you know, with the big speakers playing a message in Arabic or Farsi or Kurdish or whatever they happen to be, saying, basically, saying, Put your weapons, if you have them, next to the front door in your house. Please come outside, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we had Apaches flying over for security, if they’re needed, and it’s also a good show of force. And we’re running around, and they—we’d done a few houses by this point, and I was with my platoon leader, my squad leader and maybe a couple other people.
“And we were approaching this one house,” he said. “In this farming area, they’re, like, built up into little courtyards. So they have, like, the main house, common area. They have, like, a kitchen and then they have a storage shed-type deal. And we’re approaching, and they had a family dog. And it was barking ferociously, ’cause it’s doing its job. And my squad leader, just out of nowhere, just shoots it. And he didn’t--motherfucker--he shot it and it went in the jaw and exited out. So I see this dog--I’m a huge animal lover; I love animals--and this dog has, like, these eyes on it and he’s running around spraying blood all over the place. And like, you know, What the hell is going on? The family is sitting right there, with three little children and a mom and a dad, horrified. And I’m at a loss for words. And so, I yell at him. I’m, like, What the fuck are you doing? And so the dog’s yelping. It’s crying out without a jaw. And I’m looking at the family, and they’re just, you know, dead scared. And so I told them, I was like, Fucking shoot it, you know? At least kill it, because that can’t be fixed....
“And--I actually get tears from just saying this right now, but--and I had tears then, too--and I’m looking at the kids and they are so scared. So I got the interpreter over with me and, you know, I get my wallet out and I gave them twenty bucks, because that’s what I had. And, you know, I had him give it to them and told them that I’m so sorry that asshole did that.
“Was a report ever filed about it?” he asked. “Was anything ever done? Any punishment ever dished out? No, absolutely not.”
Specialist Chrystal said such incidents were “very common.”
According to interviews with twenty-four veterans who participated in such raids, they are a relentless reality for Iraqis under occupation. The American forces, stymied by poor intelligence, invade neighborhoods where insurgents operate, bursting into homes in the hope of surprising fighters or finding weapons. But such catches, they said, are rare. Far more common were stories in which soldiers assaulted a home, destroyed property in their futile search and left terrorized civilians struggling to repair the damage and begin the long torment of trying to find family members who were hauled away as suspects.
Raids normally took place between midnight and 5 am, according to Sgt. John Bruhns, 29, of Philadelphia, who estimates that he took part in raids of nearly 1,000 Iraqi homes. He served in Baghdad and Abu Ghraib, a city infamous for its prison, located twenty miles west of the capital, with the Third Brigade, First Armor Division, First Battalion, for one year beginning in April 2003. His descriptions of raid procedures closely echoed those of eight other veterans who served in locations as diverse as Kirkuk, Samarra, Baghdad, Mosul and Tikrit.
“You want to catch them off guard,” Sergeant Bruhns explained. “You want to catch them in their sleep.” About ten troops were involved in each raid, he said, with five stationed outside and the rest searching the home.
Once they were in front of the home, troops, some wearing Kevlar helmets and flak vests with grenade launchers mounted on their weapons, kicked the door in, according to Sergeant Bruhns, who dispassionately described the procedure:
“You run in. And if there’s lights, you turn them on--if the lights are working. If not, you’ve got flashlights.... You leave one rifle team outside while one rifle team goes inside. Each rifle team leader has a headset on with an earpiece and a microphone where he can communicate with the other rifle team leader that’s outside.
“You go up the stairs. You grab the man of the house. You rip him out of bed in front of his wife. You put him up against the wall. You have junior-level troops, PFCs [privates first class], specialists will run into the other rooms and grab the family, and you’ll group them all together. Then you go into a room and you tear the room to shreds and you make sure there’s no weapons or anything that they can use to attack us.
“You get the interpreter and you get the man of the home, and you have him at gunpoint, and you’ll ask the interpreter to ask him: ‘Do you have any weapons? Do you have any anti-US propaganda, anything at all--anything--anything in here that would lead us to believe that you are somehow involved in insurgent activity or anti-coalition forces activity?’
“Normally they’ll say no, because that’s normally the truth,” Sergeant Bruhns said. “So what you’ll do is you’ll take his sofa cushions and you’ll dump them. If he has a couch, you’ll turn the couch upside down. You’ll go into the fridge, if he has a fridge, and you’ll throw everything on the floor, and you’ll take his drawers and you’ll dump them.... You’ll open up his closet and you’ll throw all the clothes on the floor and basically leave his house looking like a hurricane just hit it.
“And if you find something, then you’ll detain him. If not, you’ll say, ‘Sorry to disturb you. Have a nice evening.’ So you’ve just humiliated this man in front of his entire family and terrorized his entire family and you’ve destroyed his home. And then you go right next door and you do the same thing in a hundred homes.”
Each raid, or “cordon and search” operation, as they are sometimes called, involved five to twenty homes, he said. Following a spate of attacks on soldiers in a particular area, commanders would normally order infantrymen on raids to look for weapons caches, ammunition or materials for making IEDs. Each Iraqi family was allowed to keep one AK-47 at home, but according to Bruhns, those found with extra weapons were arrested and detained and the operation classified a “success,” even if it was clear that no one in the home was an insurgent.
Before a raid, according to descriptions by several veterans, soldiers typically “quarantined” the area by barring anyone from coming in or leaving. In pre-raid briefings, Sergeant Bruhns said, military commanders often told their troops the neighborhood they were ordered to raid was “a hostile area with a high level of insurgency” and that it had been taken over by former Baathists or Al Qaeda terrorists.
“So you have all these troops, and they’re all wound up,” said Sergeant Bruhns. “And a lot of these troops think once they kick down the door there’s going to be people on the inside waiting for them with weapons to start shooting at them.”
Sgt. Dustin Flatt, 33, of Denver, estimates he raided “thousands” of homes in Tikrit, Samarra and Mosul. He served with the Eighteenth Infantry Brigade, First Infantry Division, for one year beginning in February 2004. “We scared the living Jesus out of them every time we went through every house,” he said.
Spc. Ali Aoun, 23, a National Guardsman from New York City, said he conducted perimeter security in nearly 100 raids while serving in Sadr City with the Eighty-Ninth Military Police Brigade for eleven months starting in April 2004. When soldiers raided a home, he said, they first cordoned it off with Humvees. Soldiers guarded the entrance to make sure no one escaped. If an entire town was being raided, in large-scale operations, it too was cordoned off, said Spc. Garett Reppenhagen, 32, of Manitou Springs, Colorado, a cavalry scout and sniper with the 263rd Armor Battalion, First Infantry Division, who was deployed to Baquba for a year in February 2004.
Staff Sgt. Timothy John Westphal, 31, of Denver, recalled one summer night in 2004, the temperature an oppressive 110 degrees, when he and forty-four other US soldiers raided a sprawling farm on the outskirts of Tikrit. Sergeant Westphal, who served there for a yearlong tour with the Eighteenth Infantry Brigade, First Infantry Division, beginning in February 2004, said he was told some men on the farm were insurgents. As a mechanized infantry squad leader, Sergeant Westphal led the mission to secure the main house, while fifteen men swept the property. Sergeant Westphal and his men hopped the wall surrounding the house, fully expecting to come face to face with armed insurgents.
“We had our flashlights and...I told my guys, ‘On the count of three, just hit them with your lights and let’s see what we’ve got here. Wake ‘em up!’ ”
Sergeant Westphal’s flashlight was mounted on his M-4 carbine rifle, a smaller version of the M-16, so in pointing his light at the clump of sleepers on the floor he was also pointing his weapon at them. Sergeant Westphal first turned his light on a man who appeared to be in his mid-60s.
“The man screamed this gut-wrenching, blood-curdling, just horrified scream,” Sergeant Westphal recalled. “I’ve never heard anything like that. I mean, the guy was absolutely terrified. I can imagine what he was thinking, having lived under Saddam.”
The farm’s inhabitants were not insurgents but a family sleeping outside for relief from the stifling heat, and the man Sergeant Westphal had frightened awake was the patriarch.
“Sure enough, as we started to peel back the layers of all these people sleeping, I mean, it was him, maybe two guys...either his sons or nephews or whatever, and the rest were all women and children,” Sergeant Westphal said. “We didn’t find anything.
“I can tell you hundreds of stories about things like that and they would all pretty much be like the one I just told you. Just a different family, a different time, a different circumstance.”
For Sergeant Westphal, that night was a turning point. “I just remember thinking to myself, I just brought terror to someone else under the American flag, and that’s just not what I joined the Army to do,” he said.
1
2
3
4
5
NEXT PAGE >>>
Previous item: Flynt to Capitol Hill Hypocrites: 'Payback's a Bitch' Next item: Still Queasy After All These Years Elsewhere: . CommentsAre you a Truthdig member yet? Login now, or register with Truthdig. |
Washington’s Overrated ‘Old Hands’
Email
Print
Share
Del.icio.us
Digg
Facebook
Ma.gnolia
Newsvine
Reddit
StumbleUpon
Yahoo
Jump to Comments
By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 28, 2007 at 6:08 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
(Still no response)
There is probably more evidence for 911 than there was for the Reichstag stunt. It is all historical and it is plenty enough to have a full investigation.
1. Rise of the Neocon supremicist movement at the U. of Chicago and Cornell.
2. Subversive nature of this movement
3. Plan for the New American Century as a subversive movement.
4. Rise of the Bush crime family syndicate.
5. Neocon headquarters in the pentagon and collusion with selected air force officers and the Israeli government.
6. Treason Act ready before 911.
7. Anthrax stunt against Democratic leaders.
8. Murder of Wellstone family.
6. Iraq war con.
You don’t have to know anything about the pentagon or skyscrapers to launch a real investigation. There is even more evidence in the cover ups.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 28, 2007 at 12:55 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Ernest Canning on 7/27 at 7:04 pm
(752 comments total)
ITW, who said I didn’t want to read your post? I read it. I was not impressed by it. I think Dr. Jones’s scientific explanations are superior. No need to get emotional because I wasn’t impressed by your post.
EC: Don’t worry, I won’t. I didn’t expect to change your mind. I have not seen compelling evidence to change my view of it, and I’ve seen a lot of easily discounted nonsense passed off as proof.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 27, 2007 at 9:47 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
There are many Jews with honor. They are no better or worse than anyone else, except tradition makes it so.
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 27, 2007 at 7:04 pm #
ITW, who said I didn’t want to read your post? I read it. I was not impressed by it. I think Dr. Jones’s scientific explanations are superior. No need to get emotional because I wasn’t impressed by your post.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 27, 2007 at 6:40 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
ohn Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/27 at 1:17 pm
(Unregistered commenter)
I still think you are a liar and that fly under nothing but a false flag.
********
Yeah, your feeble bigoted mind’s made up and you don’t want to get your ignorance tainted with facts.
I think YOU were shit out by the Great Pumpkin into a toxic waste heap full of dioxin because he didn’t want to bring your filth to all the little boys and girls on Halloween.
And I have just as much evidence for what I think as you have for what you think.
Only what I think is more interesting, creative, and just plain funny.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 27, 2007 at 1:17 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I still think you are a liar and that fly under nothing but a false flag.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 27, 2007 at 11:20 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/27 at 10:23 am
(Unregistered commenter)
All neocons are liars. You are a neocon. Therefore you are a liar.
Your logic is impeccable. But, of course, your premise is absurd.
I am no neocon, no fan of neocons, and accept nothing they put forth as valid.
As I said you just keep throwing lis and shit at the wall to see what sticks. But it’s splattering all over you.
You don’t know shit from shinola about me, but since I KNOW you are an ignorant idiot and show it all the time, you say whatever you can invent. You don’t even show any imagination.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 27, 2007 at 10:23 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
All neocons are liars. You are a neocon. Therefore you are a liar.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 27, 2007 at 8:22 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
ohn Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/26 at 10:23 am
(Unregistered commenter)
There is no right to exist for any nation. Israel’s right to exist rests upon 150 nuclear weapons. I suppose you have dual citizenship, which means that you support Israel first and the United States second. You’ve made your choice.
******
I guess you figure if you throw enough shit at a wall something will stick? So you just make up any lies you want and toss them out there.
I am NOT a dual citizen, nor an Israeli. I simply do not see any viable evidence that the destruction of Israel (and the subsequent murder or fleeing of 5.5 million) people can possibly be in the best interests of the USA or the Middle East.
I know that’s hard to see for you red-neck Jew-hating bigots who cut your teeth believe Jews have horns and are responsible for every evil in the world, from 9/11 to Hurricane Katrina, to the Tsunami in Asia a few years ago.
I can’t help your WILLFUL ignorance. Only you can. But I can label your bullshit as such.
Report thisBy the 1Sgt, July 26, 2007 at 4:24 pm #
#89737 by John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/26 at 10:23 am
(Unregistered commenter)
There is no right to exist for any nation. Israel’s right to exist rests upon 150 nuclear weapons. I suppose you have dual citizenship, which means that you support Israel first and the United States second. You’ve made your choice.
=====================================================
A choice clearly illustrated with the responses given by ITW to date. Time and again we see the same pattern. When given a choice the answer is favor of the Jewish state by Jewish Americans, over the interest of the United States, the country that bore them. The current policies of the United States favor Israel and are partial to one side--so much so we have attacked and invaded Israel’s enemies. First Iraq and soon will be Iran.
This during a time when Israel practices APARTHEID with Arabs in their own homeland, caging them by the hundreds of thousands in a place called GAZA and the WEST BANK.
Then people here ask..."why do they hate us”?
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 26, 2007 at 10:23 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
There is no right to exist for any nation. Israel’s right to exist rests upon 150 nuclear weapons. I suppose you have dual citizenship, which means that you support Israel first and the United States second. You’ve made your choice.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 26, 2007 at 6:10 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
EC:
You don’t want to read what I post? Fine, nobody’s holding you at your keyboard at gunpoint.
You want to live in your pipe dreams that make no sense about “Jewish” conspiracies to alienate the BEST friend Israel has, well, that’s your problem.
I’ve lived to see PLENTY of them, all bogus and I’ve studied even more. From Joe Hill’s conviction, to the Palmer raids, to Sacco&Vanzetti;, to Charles Beard’s scurrilous implication that FDR was behind Pearl Harbor, to the assassinations of the 60’s, to Flight 800, Foster’s suicide and now, 9/11.
All bogus conspiracy theories. Joe Hill was killed for being IWW, Period.
Building 7 COULDN’T possibly have collapsed? Well, the buffs said Oswald COULDN’T have fired the shots--Oliver Stone made a big movie saying that.
All garbage. Oswald fired the shots--the early interpretation of the evidence, particularly the timing was all wrong. When the timing was fixed, all the anomalies vanished.
I’m intellectually dishonest? Because I KNOW BS when I see it (and smell it)? Because I trust FIRST my own analysis and brainpower, not the analysis of “authorities” solely because they have a title?
The evidence of “demolition” at the WTC just doesn’t wash and I’ve laid out the reasons why. YOU brushed them aside because in your reductionist thinking they contradict what you “know” to be true:
That a team of dedicated terrorists managed to bring down the WTC by a method even Tom Clancy knew--and DESCRIBED in “Debt of Honor”.
Occam’s Razor, Baby, Occam’s Razor.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 26, 2007 at 5:52 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/25 at 9:57 pm
(Unregistered commenter)
I am not a Jew-hating, Israel despising Fascist. You are, or you wouldn’t use such insults as your standard fair. As far as I’m concerned you are a vicious neo-con and a traitor. (No, I didn’t read all your posts. Should I. People like you always return to the same old vomit.)
*****
Ludicrous. I’m Jewish. I defend Israel’s right to exist. I’m a Democrat.
Your assertions are so, well, weird, that you make GodSend look sane.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 25, 2007 at 9:57 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I am not a Jew-hating, Israel despising Fascist. You are, or you wouldn’t use such insults as your standard fair. As far as I’m concerned you are a vicious neo-con and a traitor. (No, I didn’t read all your posts. Should I. People like you always return to the same old vomit.)
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 25, 2007 at 8:49 pm #
No ITW, you feign politeness then return to your intellectual dishonesty. I have witnessed it too many times, and, frankly I’m tired of it. As I said in the previous post, I find the scientific explanations of a physicist like Dr. Steven E. Jones far more convincing. You can use the usual slander, “tin-hat conspiracy theorist,” as dismissive denigration all you want. The fact is that there are competing “theories” as to the source of the collapse of all three buildings. There is the “official theory” that the collapse was caused by fire--one that does not appear to square with basic science, and which bears a heavy burden of proof given than no high rise building in human history ever collapsed due to fire prior to 9/11. Then there are the unofficial “theories.”
Of all the explanations offered, Dr. Jones’s appears to be on the most solid, scientific footing. There is not one word in your argumentative posts that convinces me that the “official theories” are even credible.
Insult, yell and scream all you want. As I stated before, I am interested in the science, not in your political opinions. While I would be the first to join with you in rejecting the paranoid rantings of some posters that 9/11 is a Zionist plot, I suspect that your vociferous refusal to accept the science behind the issue of controlled demolition is in part motivated by your need to deny anything could connect this episode to one or more Zionists, though, from my perspective, if there was complicity, I suspect it had everything to do with Cheney’s insatiable lust for power, period!
Finally, your comment about the height of WTC 1 & 2 is intriguing and one worthy of a further open and full investigation. It may well explain why the squibs shooting out at higher levels (e.g. high level demolition) would have been needed in addition to the numerous explosions eye witnesses claim they heard occurring in the basements of the twin towers. It would also serve to explain the variation between the method of collapse of WTC 1 & 2 vs. WTC 7, though all three buildings collapsed into their own footprints, and although the ultra-high temperatures remained in the rubble for such an extended period, which is precisely what occurs when thermite is used in demolition.
As to WTC 7, the evidence is beyond overwhelming. The collapse was precisely what you see in controlled demolition. Controlled demolition is consistent with Larry Silverstein’s statement that they were given orders to “pull-it” and with Guiliani’s televised statement made on 9/11 to the effect that FEMA gave him 10-15 minutes advance notice that the building was going to collapse.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 25, 2007 at 6:24 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/25 at 10:42 am
(Unregistered commenter)
I think that “inherit the wind” uses insults to make people angry and then in all the confusion he offers weak arguments. You can tell that something is fishy because he uses the prescribed Republican insults and slanders in order to get things rolling. I think he fears that Israel was involved in 911, and so he wants to keep everyone’s attention on minutiae.
Actually, I don’t think you’ve really read my posts. Otherwise you’d KNOW I have opposed the war in Iraq since BEFORE it began. You’d know I cannot stand 99% of the Republican Party and want George W. Bush and Richard Cheney impeached, ousted then tried and convicted on charges of treason. You’d know I think Jimmy Carter was the wisest, most honest and most-far-seeing President since FDR--he was just lousy at Washington politics.
You’d know I want us OUT of Iraq and to BACK OFF on Iran. You’d know I DESPISE the fact the Bush BLEW an unbelievable opportunity to make peace with Iran after 9/11.
I have been called every kind of name by you Jew-hating Israel-despising fascists who want me to SHUT UP so you can enjoy your circle-jerk and get all horny for the idea of somebody dropping a mega-ton hydrogen bomb on Israel--because you are all such “humanists”.
I’m not afraid that Jews were behind 9/11. I’m afraid that fanatics like you will manufacture phony evidence to “prove” it--not enough to get convictions, but just enough to start what you really want: another purging of Jews--this time from America.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 25, 2007 at 10:42 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
I think that “inherit the wind” uses insults to make people angry and then in all the confusion he offers weak arguments. You can tell that something is fishy because he uses the prescribed Republican insults and slanders in order to get things rolling. I think he fears that Israel was involved in 911, and so he wants to keep everyone’s attention on minutiae.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 25, 2007 at 4:56 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Ernest Canning on 7/24 at 9:34 pm
(695 comments total)
Whom, which is more reliable the science of a renouned physicist, Dr. Steven E. Jones, reflected in powerful and convincing academic papers and presentations or ITW and his NOVA program? Hmmm, that’s a tough one. And your explanation, ITW, for the symetrical collapse of WTC 7 into its own footprint in the span of 6.6 seconds; WTC 7 which was “not” struck by a plane, is precisely what, ITW?
As you have repeated done with respect to other topics, your intellectual dishonesty is transparent and there for all to see.
***********
EC: I have TRIED to be polite to you, but you just keep coming back with insults and slander.
The physics of the collapse of the Twin Towers is not as complicated as you tin-foil hat conspiracy buffs try to make out.
If your analysis of the collapse of the twin towers is fundamentally WRONG (and it is) then the collapse of bldng 7 is no longer a valid component of your conspiracy theory.
See, you all have your logic backwards--the collapse of 7 being harder to explain does NOT indicate that the towers didn’t collapse as described--that’s typical ex post fact bad reasoning.
You have to first PROVE that the towers could not have collapsed as described, which I find ludicrous. The contained fire from jet fuel easily burns hot enough to burn the temper out of steel--you don’t need to melt the steel at all. Once the temper is gone, it’s not steel anymore, but soft iron, incapable of supporting the floors above. ALL the floors above fall like a giant sledge on the floor below, far exceeding its load limits.
Don’t believe me? Any carpenter with a hammer and a nail KNOWS you can’t just lean on the nail with the hammerhead and drive it--you have to SWING the hammer to develop kinetic energy. Simple, high school physics on how acceleration amplifies force.
So once the floors above drive down like a pile driver, the floor below collapses and now the ADDITIONAL weight is joined to hit the floor below, which collapse quicker and quicker. This isn’t hard to understand.
I also find the “demolition” theory absurd. Why? Several OBVIOUS reasons.
1)Because when buildings are demolished they are far, far smaller than the WTC. NOBODY has ever brought down a skyscraper of this order of magnitude.
2) EVERY film I’ve ever seen of a controlled demoltion, the building was ALWAYS wider than it is tall--occasionally you get fairly tall buildings but NEVER anything where the height is so much greater than the width.
3) (I think of this as the idiot argument--only an idiot would deny it) Placing charges to demolish and implode a building is not only a highly skilled profession, it is an INCREDIBLY time-consuming activity.
It can take MONTHS to plan and locate charges to bring down a fairly small structure.
During those months the demolition engineers REQUIRE complete and total access to the structure.
Most of the internals of the building must be removed in advance.
Charges are placed on each and every floor at key structural elements and timed to go off sequentially from top to bottom (there’s an order from inside to outside but that’s beyond my knowledge).
So the “demolition” argument requires lots of demolition engineers--LOTS of them--and nobody noticing.
They have to poke into EVERY nook and cranny in the buildings--and nobody notices.
They have to place THOUSANDS of charges--and nobody notices.
They have to run HUNDREDS of miles of wire--and nobody notices.
They have to test their connections and timing--and nobody notices.
They have to violate EVERY guiding principle of demolition safety--and nobody notices
They have break ALL these rules on a type and size of structure that NOBODY has ever demolished before.
They have to keep it all secret--despite the guys in hard hats, the explosive placements, the wiring, etc.
NOW you see why the demolition fantasy is pure crap.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 24, 2007 at 9:45 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Crooks cherry pick the facts, use gobbledeegook and gibberish, and act triumphal. Republicans are schooled in crookery because no one stands up to them, hoping they will just go away. For most lazy cowards, Hitler has to slap them in the face before they realize the danger. Republicans belong in Leavenworth.
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 24, 2007 at 9:34 pm #
Whom, which is more reliable the science of a renouned physicist, Dr. Steven E. Jones, reflected in powerful and convincing academic papers and presentations or ITW and his NOVA program? Hmmm, that’s a tough one. And your explanation, ITW, for the symetrical collapse of WTC 7 into its own footprint in the span of 6.6 seconds; WTC 7 which was “not” struck by a plane, is precisely what, ITW?
As you have repeated done with respect to other topics, your intellectual dishonesty is transparent and there for all to see.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 24, 2007 at 11:45 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
You don’t have to know all the details of the murder weapon (airplanes or explosives) to know that a murder is suspected. Usually murders are inside jobs. The external evidence is overwhelming of a conspiracy involving Israel, Pakistan, the GOP, etc.
Who benefited from 911? What is the psychopathic character of the Bush crime syndicate?
Still no real investigation. The bogus investigations after one year and one half speak volumes. All the other coverups speak volumes.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 24, 2007 at 3:57 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
cyrena on 7/23 at 3:26 pm
(488 comments total)
#88797 by Inherit The Wind on 7/23 at 4:14 am
You didn’t read my post Wind, because of your illness. I said, that while the airplanes obviously hit the towers, (we saw THAT much with our own eyes) the airplanes DID NOT, (and I will repeat this again) the airplanes ARE NOT responsible for the collapse of the WTC. The towers fell in their tracks, because of all the explosives that had been placed on site.
I’m not gonna have this conversation with you again. The AIRPLANES that we ALL saw crash into the towers, DID NOT bring them down.
Do ya get that?
*********
Sure did. And I got that you just contradicted what you said in post 88763, which was:
.I repeat, those airplanes DID NOT bring down ANY of the buildings at the WTC on 9-11. They may or may not have crashed into those towers,
**************
“May or may not have crashed into those towers”? Now you are changing your tune. I keep saying this:
YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN OPINIONS BUT YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN FACTS!
Fact: A commercial jet liner loaded with passengers crashed into each of the WTC towers on 9/11/2001. Disputing that one fact alone is a mark of insanity.
All you tin-foil-hat types should look at the NOVA episode on the towers’ collapse. All the phony reasons why the planes couldn’t have brought down the towers were disproven years ago.
Meanwhile, I’m spending my time on something far more real and less magical than your ludicrous fantasies. Of course, I mean the latest Harry Potter book.
At least THERE the magic makes sense and follows a consistent internal logic. But, then again, Ms. Rowling never expected anyone to actually BELIEVE she was writing anything but entertaining make-believe.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 23, 2007 at 9:26 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
There is probably more evidence for 911 than there was for the Reichstag stunt. It is all historical and it is plenty enough to have a full investigation.
1. Rise of the Neocon supremicist movement at the U. of Chicago and Cornell.
2. Subversive nature of this movement
3. Plan for the New American Century as a subversive movement.
4. Rise of the Bush crime family syndicate.
5. Neocon headquarters in the pentagon and collusion with selected air force officers and the Israeli government.
6. Treason Act ready before 911.
7. Anthrax stunt against Democratic leaders.
8. Murder of Wellstone family.
6. I’m sure there is plenty more.
7. Treason
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 23, 2007 at 5:47 pm #
ITW, when it comes to 9/11 I am more interested in what the science shows than what the politicians claim.
The 10/8/06 paper by Dr. Steven E. Jones, a Physicist and Archemetrist, entitled “Why Indeed did the WTC Buildings Collpase?” examines thirteen separate areas which “challenge government reports and investigate[s] the controlled demolition hypothesis”
“1. Molten Metal: Flowing and in Pools
“2. Observed Tempeeratures around 1000 degreeC and Sulfidation in WTC 7
“3. Near-Symmetrical Collapse of WTC 7
“4. No Previous Skyscraper Collapse Due to Fires [none since either]
“5. Squib-timing during the Collapse of WTC 7
“6. Early Drop of North Tower Antenna
“7. Eyewitness Acounts of Flashes and Loud Explosions
“8 Ejection of Steel Beams and Debris--plumes from the Towers
“9. Rapid Collapses and Conservation of Momentum and Energy
“10 Controlled Demolition ‘Implosions” Require Skill
“11. Steel Column Temperatures of 800 degrees C Needed…
“12. Problems in the NIST Report: Inadequate Steel Temperatures and Tweaked Models
“13. NIST’s Failure to Show Visualizations.”
http://wtc7.net/articles/stevenjones_b7.html
WTC 7, by the way, was “not” struck by a plane. Housing offices of several U.S. intelligence agencies, it was one of the most secure in the nation, rendering it highly unlikely al Qaeda could have planted explosives. On 9/11 it collapsed into its own footprint in the span of 6.6 seconds. A video of its collapse is virtually identical to numerous available videos of buildings involved in controlled demolition.
Report thisBy cyrena, July 23, 2007 at 3:26 pm #
#88797 by Inherit The Wind on 7/23 at 4:14 am
You didn’t read my post Wind, because of your illness. I said, that while the airplanes obviously hit the towers, (we saw THAT much with our own eyes) the airplanes DID NOT, (and I will repeat this again) the airplanes ARE NOT responsible for the collapse of the WTC. The towers fell in their tracks, because of all the explosives that had been placed on site.
I’m not gonna have this conversation with you again. The AIRPLANES that we ALL saw crash into the towers, DID NOT bring them down.
Do ya get that?
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 23, 2007 at 2:20 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
The one thing that makes Republicans and Nazis most alike is their criminal philosophy which allows them to insult others at will, while ignoring ideas and facts.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 23, 2007 at 4:14 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Cyrena:
Chico Marx said it best: “Who you gonna believe: Me or your own eyes?”
I have friends who SAW the second plane hit the south tower. They didn’t allegedly see a plane. They didn’t see an “alleged” plane--they SAW THE F***ing PLANE CRASH OVER THEIR HEADS, you IDIOT! Got that? The only people who DOUBT there were planes are psychos like you who simply cannot believe that such a simple, elegant, brutal attack could have occurred and that the wonderful, peaceful Islamic jihadists could have been behind it!
Nor do they believe the VERY simple physics that brought down the towers. Only conspiracy theorists psychos like you buy into the “other” cause nonsense.
Cyrena’s definition of “crazy”: Disagreeing with her and NEVER giving in to her crap and never “going away”. See, because Cyrena wants me to shut up and go away, and HAS POSTED THAT, she now says I must be crazy because...I won’t!
Get a life, lady!
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 23, 2007 at 1:16 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
As a citizen, everyone has the right to believe and say whatever they want. I think that factions within Israel and Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and the U.S were involved in planning and executing 911. Proof? None. But, all the 911 coverups suggest conspiracy. Who benefited? Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the Bushies. Common sense and experience are all we have as citizens. I have an Israeli/US friend who agrees.
Report thisBy cyrena, July 22, 2007 at 9:31 pm #
Comment#88633 by Inherit The Wind on 7/22 at 5:11 am
• Besides, there’s that wonderful fact that jet fuel only burns at 500 deg F, not enough to soften steel. I’m sure you’re citing that bullshit as well (jet fuel burns at least 3x hotter than that in open air, and even hotter in enclosed spaces--EASILY hot enough to catastrophic weaken steel by burning out the temper)
Wind, in all of this blather, about jet fuel burn rates, (and I’m more than a little bit familiar with jet fuel burn rates, and pretty much everything else that goes with operation a commercial airline operation) how does it lead you to consistently make accusations that I have claimed that the Zionists are behind the 9-11 operation? I have never suggested such a thing, because it’s never been proven, and…as 911truthdog recently posted, WE DON’T KNOW who arranged 9-11. Cheney knows, and I’m sure there are a few others of his intimate circle that know as well. But beyond that, we don’t.
Meantime, here’s a news flash….none of your calculations on jet fuel burn rates are worth a damn, because those airplanes did NOT….I repeat, those airplanes DID NOT bring down ANY of the buildings at the WTC on 9-11. They may or may not have crashed into those towers, but let me repeat this for you….THAT DID NOT cause those buildings to turn to dust in less than an hour. Those WTC was blown up with explosives. How they got there, I do not know. The airplanes did not bring those towers down.
Writethat 5000 times, THE AIRPLANES DID NOT BRING DOWN THE WTC.
That should keep you busy for a while.
Report thisBy cyrena, July 22, 2007 at 9:05 pm #
#88636 by Inherit The Wind on 7/22 at 5:21 am
You’re a sickie Wind. And, prior to now, I’d never considered reporting you to the administrators. I’d also never had any reason to know for sure, if you were a man or a woman. Quite frankly, I’d been cutting you some slack, because your postings ring of possible menopausal symptoms. So no, with a handle like ITW, there was no reason to assume that you wouldn’t be a woman, though I certainly understand that you could be a man as well. Thing is, I don’t much give a shit.
I DO know that you’re sick, and that you need some help, and I will of course retain the posting, in the event that I decide to report you. I haven’t yet, but you’re working your way there. Someone in authority should at least be aware of your presence. We live in dangerous times now….the “war on terror” and all…And quite frankly, you sound like you are an explosion waiting to happen.
So yeah, I’m posting this to put you on notice. More of this kind of stuff will get you the kind of attention that you are presumably seeking. But, it’s a “cut off your nose to spite your face” action, which is ultimately very stupid. You should think before you post anything else. It could come back to haunt you.
Report thisBy M, July 22, 2007 at 8:37 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Everyone is hand in hand in this. Those who already have antisemitic tendencies or who feel alienated economically are blaming ‘the Jews’ but it’s much, much bigger than that. Basically, the Nazis (and lots of them were brought in to work for the CIA after WW2) hate Jews and want to get rid of them. Top-level Zionists do pretty well out of an atmosphere of antisemitism too and they want all Jews, identified or assimilated, to move to Israel because they have a longstanding wish to reestablish the Davidic kingdom (with themselves as the royalty of course). Saudi Arabian royalty wants the US to occupy Iraq to take the pressure off them because of the bases in Saudi Arabia and because Islamists threaten their own power structure. And all these guys, including the Italian mafia/Catholic church, HATE the ‘left’ (i.e anyone who talks about mushy things like equality, workers rights, public education etc etc). So they came up with this brilliant plan (as brilliant as thugs can devise) to achieve total domination. It doesn’t particularly matter to them if everyone suspects it’s an inside job because, if anything, it increases the fear and paranoia that they want to bring about. It’s a pretty depressing scenario. And it’s the ordinary Jew/Christian/Muslim who invariably suffers. Most Jews really are loyal to the country they reside in, many have assimilated to avoid being identified as ‘Jewish’ (e.g converted, taken up non Jewish names etc) but in the end, it’s going to make no difference. The charges of double loyalty invariably surface (with some justification), ordinary Jews face pogroms and getting kicked out again and again. Nazis are happy, Zionists are happy, mafia are happy. Cheap labor becomes abundant again. Life goes on and it happens all over again some time down the line. Ordo ab Chao.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 22, 2007 at 7:25 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I think you have it backwards Mordecai....YOU are the one trying to silence US.
Are you going to respond to the article I posted or will you just ignore it?
http://www.startribune.com/587/story/564047.html
*****
This is not a hard one to figure out, Schultz: Even the dummies and morons on the Republican side of the aisle have a far better grasp of what is in America’s interest than you ever will. They, at least, aren’t so riddled with hatred for all Jews that they can’t see straight, the way you are.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 22, 2007 at 7:23 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Children. Children.
Report thisBy the 1Sgt, July 22, 2007 at 5:51 pm #
#88636 by Inherit The Wind on 7/22 at 5:21 am
(Unregistered commenter)
Cyrena and the 1Sgt:
Is there ANYTHING you two WON’T say to try to silence me?
===================================================
I think you have it backwards Mordecai....YOU are the one trying to silence US.
Are you going to respond to the article I posted or will you just ignore it?
http://www.startribune.com/587/story/564047.html
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 22, 2007 at 5:21 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Cyrena and the 1Sgt:
Is there ANYTHING you two WON’T say to try to silence me?
Are you SO terrified of having your drug-addled fantasies questioned and held up to scrutiny that you will do or say ANYTHING to shut me up and shut me off?
Why don’t you go whining to the administrators to cut me off:
“ITW is SO unfair!!! He uses logic and facts against us!!!! Boo-Hoo-hoo. And no matter WHAT insults we hurl or invent about him, he keeps coming back!!! WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! IT’S NOT FAIR!!!”
Maybe that will work.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 22, 2007 at 5:11 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
But, we can count on ITW, to always appear, anytime there is a possibility of capturing an innocent and apolitical reader, and turning them into a facist zionist.
The only thing I can’t understand, is why ITW doesn’t just MOVE to Israel, where all Jews, the world over, are welcome as citizens. And, as long as she stays on her side of the “wall” there’s nothing to fear.
No, I don’t expect that to happen, but it just seems like she’d be so much happier there, and besides...they’ve got all of that medical technology that she could benefit from.
****************
Oh, Horrors! I made a typo! That clearly means I MUST be a Zionist Fascist! But what about you? You can’t even keep the basic grammar of genders straight! You keep adding an ‘s’ in front of “he” when referring to me. If a typo makes me such a bad person, what does THAT make YOU????
I’ll tell you what it makes you: Infantile and unable to cope with getting what you pompously dish out.
Because I don’t subscribe to your nutty-ultra-left-wing tin-foil hat conspiracy fantasies that are now IDENTICAL to the nutty-ultra-right-wing-tin-foil hat crew, that means I have to hate America? Absurd!
And you assholes keep trying to say that. Sorry. I’m an American first. And will be unless you and George Bush get your wish and stifle all dissent and turn us into the fascist state you love. It is my FERVENT desire to prevent him AND you from gutting the American Constitution for political expediency.
Since you think the Arab Moslem nations are such bastions of freedom and liberal openmindedness, and you think (under your foil hat) that America is magically, demonically “possessed” by Jews, why don’t YOU move to one of those Utopias? I’m sure you’ll be happier as you freely wear your head scarf and burkha. You’re free to wear and free not to wear it--if you don’t mind being called a whore, being arrested, beaten and cursed.
Cyrena: You’ll never be a scholar. You buy into the tin-foil hat conspiracy fantasies that Arabs are too stupid to conceive and execute as elegant a plan as 9/11. Sure, no 767 hit WTC South. My friend who was standing under it really just saw a pigeon bang into the building, right? (BTW, he ran out of Bld 7 after North was hit).
Besides, there’s that wonderful fact that jet fuel only burns at 500 deg F, not enough to soften steel. I’m sure you’re citing that bullshit as well (jet fuel burns at least 3x hotter than that in open air, and even hotter in enclosed spaces--EASILY hot enough to catastrophic weaken steel by burning out the temper)
But, since you no scholar, you’ll never let facts clutter up YOUR “truth"--which is the Arab propaganda that “those evil Jews” were behind 9/11.
I’ll bet you still believe that crap that Oswald couldn’t have gotten the shots off that killed JFK. And I’ll bet you still believe in the “magic dancing bullet” as proof there was a conspiracy.
Scholar = Skeptic. Scholar ^= Cynic.
I may not be a pretty boy, but I’ll tell you what: At 210+lbs, shaving every day (face, not legs) I’d make a damn ugly woman. I think I’ll let John Travolta do that, instead.
Report thisBy the 1Sgt, July 22, 2007 at 4:50 am #
During the time Israel was BOMBING and destroying Lebanon with American made weapons, most of them supplied FREE OF CHARGE.(last year)
U.S. House backs Israel 410-8
http://www.startribune.com/587/story/564047.html
WASHINGTON—The House, displaying a foreign affairs solidarity lacking on issues like Iraq, voted overwhelmingly today to support Israel in its confrontation with Hezbollah guerrillas.
The nonbinding resolution is similar to one the Senate passed Tuesday. It harshly condemns Israel’s enemies and says Syria and Iran should be held accountable for providing Hezbollah with money and missile technology used to attack Israel.
Yet as Republican and Democratic leaders rally behind the measure in rare bipartisan fashion, a handful of lawmakers have quietly expressed reservations that the resolution was too much the result of a powerful lobbying force and attempts to court Jewish voters.
“This is the usual problem with any resolution that talks about Israel — there are a lot of closet naysayers up there (in Congress), but they don’t want to be a target of the lobby” of Israel, said Eugene H. Bird, president of the Council for the National Interest, a group that harshly condemns Israel’s military campaign.
====================================================
Tell us more about the current “beneficial” relationship, ITW. A relationship in which the representatives of the country are afraid to object to KILLING and destruction by Israel, on a scale second only to the United States.
Report thisBy the 1Sgt, July 22, 2007 at 4:23 am #
#88614 by cyrena on 7/22 at 1:03 am
(452 comments total)
Well 1Sgt:
From the latest comment by Inherit, it’s pretty clear she didn’t get it again.
===================================================
I think everyone else did, and that’s what counts.
This is the behavior you get from Israel activists, be they Americans or foreigners.
When you confront them with their own illogical statement, they cannot respond to it or they twist what was actually said/implied.
Report thisBy cyrena, July 22, 2007 at 1:03 am #
Well 1Sgt:
From the latest comment by Inherit, it’s pretty clear she didn’t get it again. When you said that our relationship with Israel is really NOT to our benefit, and could in fact bring ultimate harm to the innocents of Israel as well, she kicked in with this…
...."You have a truly sick definition of being an American, since it seems to necessitate the destruction of Israle and the slaughter, as you put it, “of many innocent people there.”>
See what I mean? Nobody (including you) said that being an American necessitates the destruction of Israel, (which ITW mispelled...but she’s forgiven). And, that’s the way it always is with her. Same with lilmamzer.
Absolutely ANY criticism of our dysfunctional relationship with Israel is going to immediately initiate the accusation that you/I/we/anybody, wants to DESTROY Israel. And, since we have heard nothing but this from these posters, (be they one and the same or not)it’s not going to change. Especially if you see that he/she can continue the above statement, with something like this:
..."I see no reason the relationship with Israel cannot and is not mutually beneficial to both nations.”....
Now, assuming that ITW really believes the above, (and...that is what she wrote) we have to assume that she is simply the psychologically dysfunctional person that she is, because no rational person can ever believe this. Obviously, our relationship with Israel has cost us not only BILLIONS of tax payer dollars, for which we have NEVER received the slightest bit of ANYTHING, (I’m still waiting to find out how Israel benefits US, but ITW has never been able to give us any examples of this, or what we might be receiving, for all of this money.)
So, in ITW, you’re dealing with a literate person of book knowlege, who is in denial, and lacking any common sense for how to utilize her literacy. Rather, she uses $100.00 words in place of the less expensive ones, because you can bury bullshit in those, slightly better than you can with everyday straightforward language.
So, when you explain that in the end, Israel puts her own people in as much danger as our leadership puts US, in defying the entire international community, and behaving as a rouge state. In the end, it means isolation, (as opposed to physical destruction) of Israel, and that’s the part that she doesn’t get. She doesn’t get that in this very demonic relationship between the US leadership and Israel...the evil twins joined at the hip...there can only be animosity and hatred toward US, because we have been so supportive of the crimes of Israel.
She’ll never get it...just as a handful of others on this post will never get it. Most of them don’t bother to try to defend these bogus position, and don’t come back.
But, we can count on ITW, to always appear, anytime there is a possibility of capturing an innocent and apolitical reader, and turning them into a facist zionist.
The only thing I can’t understand, is why ITW doesn’t just MOVE to Israel, where all Jews, the world over, are welcome as citizens. And, as long as she stays on her side of the “wall” there’s nothing to fear.
No, I don’t expect that to happen, but it just seems like she’d be so much happier there, and besides...they’ve got all of that medical technology that she could benefit from.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 21, 2007 at 5:22 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
If you are indeed an AMERICAN, you sure don’t value the citizenship you have here. If you did, you would see, very clearly, the relationship we currently have with Israel is not to the benefit of the United States and may very well mean the end of Israel, unfortunately, for many innocent people there.
You have a truly sick definition of being an American, since it seems to necessitate the destruction of Israle and the slaughter, as you put it, “of many innocent people there.”
I see no reason the relationship with Israel cannot and is not mutually beneficial to both nations.
The last time our survival DEMANDED the eradication of another nation was the American Civil War and the “nation” that destruction was the CSA. Even WWII didn’t destroy Germany, Japan, or Italy.
The only “reason” to destroy Israel is to appease Arab nations so they’ll sell us oil at gouging prices.
I don’t challenge your right to your opinion, no matter how stupid and truly bizarre it it. I DO challenge your “right” to call for the purging of all Jews in the US Govt, while hiding behind the transparent shield of calling them “zionists”. I DO challenge your right to use false information and call it facts.
And I sure as HELL challenge your right to call me un-American because I don’t ascribe to and actively challenge your lunatic tin-foil hat ideas about “secret invaders” and some magical satanic control of our government by Jews.
Maybe there’s a Roswell forum you can join. Oh, wait--Truthdig is rapidly turning into one.
Just a hint-- I don’t think it matters if the tinfoil is wrinkled or smooth--I think what matters is that you and GodSend are dangerously nuts.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 21, 2007 at 4:29 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Zionists are crooks just like Jesuits and Funda-Nazis are crooks. A crook believes in using force (insults) or fraud (lies) in order to overcome or neutralize his opposition. They are basically intellectually and morally dishonest and that gives them a temporary advantage.
Report thisBy the 1Sgt, July 21, 2007 at 2:44 pm #
#88460 by Inherit The Wind on 7/21 at 3:59 am
(Unregistered commenter)
All I am is an American citizen DARING to express an opinion that’s different than yours. That, to you, obviously is the definition of a crook.
==================================================
If you are indeed an AMERICAN, you sure don’t value the citizenship you have here. If you did, you would see, very clearly, the relationship we currently have with Israel is not to the benefit of the United States and may very well mean the end of Israel, unfortunately, for many innocent people there.
Report thisBy the 1Sgt, July 21, 2007 at 2:35 pm #
#88460 by Inherit The Wind on 7/21 at 3:59 am
(Unregistered commenter)
Thinking that way is UN-AMERICAN! DISSENT and disagreement ARE the American Way!
=================================================
EXCEPT if the disagreement and dissent refers to or involves the United States “special” relationship is unusually has with Israel, correct?
Then, this very AMERICAN characteristic is NAZI and ANTI SEMETIC.
Is that RIGHT?
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 21, 2007 at 3:59 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/19 at 5:12 pm
(Unregistered commenter)
“Inherit the Wind” is a crook. I hope he stays close where we can keep an eye on him and learn from his tricks. That way he can’t corrupt so many other sites.
**************
I’m a crook am I? Just what laws have I broken? Can you cite ONE criminal statute at a federal, state or local level you even THINK I broke? Can you show ANY evidence of it? The answer is NO!
All I am is an American citizen DARING to express an opinion that’s different than yours. That, to you, obviously is the definition of a crook.
Thinking that way is UN-AMERICAN! DISSENT and disagreement ARE the American Way!
You are such a lying asshole you don’t even know the definition of “crook”. You are just another neo-nazi propagandist throwing out any shit to can just to see if it sticks.
Try this: Until you ACTUALLY have an argument to post (even a bad, fallacious one) don’t post.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 20, 2007 at 5:20 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
With a huge lobby force of 2000:
4. The Unopposed War Lobby
by James Petras
The Zionist Power Configuration (ZPC) has over two thousand full-time functionaries, more than 250,000 activists, over a thousand billionaire and multi-millionaire political donors who contribute funds both political parties. The ZPC secures 20% of the US foreign military aid budget for Israel, over 95% congressional support for Israel’s boycott and armed incursions in Gaza, invasion of Lebanon and preemptive military option against Iran.....
http://www.bestcyrano.org/cyrano/?p=90
(I don’t remember voting for Israel or Pharmaceuticals or any of the other lobbying bastards that infect this nation like so many termites. They have a lot more power over things with their dirty money than I do.)
Instead of throwing filth hoping that something will stick…
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 20, 2007 at 8:39 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
How ironic. These are exactly the words that I should be saying to you, but you’re really not worth the energy Wind.
What are you, 7 years old? “Nah, nah I’m rubber, you’re glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you!”
And, not to worry, I’m having no problems defending my academic work. I wouldn’t publish it otherwise. It has been through the most rigorous of intellectual scrutiny.
Yeah, all the holocaust deniers like to say that too. I’ve SEEN what you post. I’ll stand by my judgement of your capabilities before I’ll bow to your anonymous “most rigorous...” I’m not worried. It’s not keeping me up nights. Thanks for your concern.
Consequently, I will spare you any reading of it. It’s more truth than your mind could ever handle,
Yeah, I’m clearly so dumb I have to stick to Melvyn Paul Leffler and Steven Schuker for history. Heck, anything more complicated than Carl Sagan’s “Demon-Haunted World” and I’m LOST!
And James Joyce, Ernest Hemingway and Thomas Pynchon are beyond me so I have to stick to the bunny slopes of literature and read Umberto Eco, Thomas Wolfe, Herman Melville, Tom Stoppard and Mark Twain. And shame of shames--I like Tolkien and Rowling--I’m SO STUPID! I even read (gasp!) Tom Clancy and Sue Grafton!
I only read “Atlas Shrugged” for the sex scenes...but that way I can say I’ve read Ayn Rand…
and I sure don’t wanna be the one responsible for actually getting you to “go away”. I was just hoping you’d do it on you own.
No such luck, eh?
Nope. Figured that out all on your own, didja?
Have a nice day!
Report thisBy cyrena, July 19, 2007 at 11:01 pm #
Flash! Cyrena--You are entitled to your own opinion. You are NOT entitled to your own facts. And you’ll never be a scholar until you learn that. Until then you are just another anti-Semitic pro-Arab propagandist
*********************
How ironic. These are exactly the words that I should be saying to you, but you’re really not worth the energy Wind.
And, not to worry, I’m having no problems defending my academic work. I wouldn’t publish it otherwise. It has been through the most rigorous of intellectual scrutiny.
Consequently, I will spare you any reading of it. It’s more truth than your mind could ever handle, and I sure don’t wanna be the one responsible for actually getting you to “go away”. I was just hoping you’d do it on you own.
No such luck, eh?
Report thisBy Bukko in Australia, July 19, 2007 at 6:28 pm #
Ernest, I agree with you again. The best way to change things, for us little people, that is, is to work on people one by one. I’m always talking to people about what I see as the truth, in simple, understandable, usually humourous ways. If you speak the truth to working-class people, even if they’re right-wing, they’ll agree with you.
It’s not like you’re going to give them a “Saul on the road to Damascus” total conversion moment. But little by little, you can open up their thinking to slight changes. I did it with the apathetic and uninformed people I met in the U.S. (and with patients, families and co-workers in hospital, I had lots of chances) and now I do it here. If all of us worked on the interpersonal level, that’s the definition of a grassroot movement.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 19, 2007 at 5:12 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
“Inherit the Wind”