#87788 by Skruff on 7/18 at 2:02 pm

“Finally, you bemoan deaths through war, autocarnage, and enviornmental disaster.  I suggest too many people eviscerate any ideas about “greener living. 7 Billion people can’t inhabit this planet without destroying it and the quality of life we once had with fewer folks.

Unload the people, and all the problems disappear.  The world might be a better place with around 3.5 Billion.  Still plenty to sustain capitalist economies, and have a few good wars.”

It’s clear from this post that my first post referencing remarks you obliquely made were in fact on target.

I won’t say more because you’ll first deny, then contradict. It’s a pattern.

#87633 by Skruff on 7/18 at 5:29 am

Now look who’s putting “words in people’s mouths”!

I never said anything about renewable energy not be a goal. Of course it is. I’m not saying mass transit should be confined to cities or urban centers.

What I’m saying is that we are a nation built over the last 60+ years on suburban sprawl and individual auto tansportation. Our goods are transported not by efficient rail, but by 16 wheelers criss-crossing the nation at incredible eco-expense. And to boot, we have 50,000 deaths and many times more casualties do to this mode of transportation.

I laid out a number of issues which you chose to ignore. I’m not blaming you. We all came to this situation and support it in our own way. I’m simply stating that the changes needed are greater than simply switching to another form of fuel.

You can twist that into any kind of life sustainment distortion you care to, but I’ll stand by my last post and this one.

#87404 by Skruff on 7/17 at 5:59 am

Skruff, thanks for the education on the fossil fuel thing, and thanks for not ignoring me. (I admitted that I had NO knowledge of these things, but I AM glad to know now.)

So, I will avoid using that term, since at least intellectually, I KNOW that it ALL means ENERGY. I truly understand that is the only reason for our military presence ANYWHERE outside of our own borders. At this point, Empire=Energy. That much I DO ‘get’.

#87535 by Skruff on 7/17 at 4:00 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

First, you are raising all of the issues that have gotten us into this mess - an unsustainable life style. We all “bought into it”, maybe not all, and maybe most of us just kind of inherited it. But it started big time after WWII and it never quit. Suburan sprawl.

So people dependent are on inefficient (from a fuel perspective) autos and are 30, 40, 50 or more miles from daily commutes - work, shopping, family. We have no real mass transit, our rail has been derailed (unlike Europe). Our cities have been vacated and left to rot.

We have what looks like a perfect storm on the horizon:
1) Peak oil
2) An economy ready to collapse with debt (overextended with empire)
3)Global warming which could lead to massive Katrina like storms.

While nothing is with absolute certainty, this is not made up stuff. And we’re going to need to change. That will happen either because we get smart and make the life style changes, like new urbanization, re-invest in our infrastructure - particularly mass transit and rail, reduce our energy as much as possible to renewable (which will never meet the demands we put on it with excessive consumption), get out of the war and military spending game - it’s literally killing us; OR mother nature will force it upon us with a vengence.

I’m like any good New England Yankee - I just don’t want to live beyond my (our) means. And if that means less commuting, living closer to work and food supplies, supporting local businesses and farmers, helping to develop livable communities...than that’s what I’ll do. And you know what? It’s really enjoyable!

The Abiotic theory of oil, proposed by the Russians since the 50’s suggests that you can deep drill oil wells practically anywhere.

I think a lessening refining capacity and the over production of dollars is the modus driving the gas prices higher in this country.

A sure cure for lowering gas prices is to withdraw immediately from the mideast thereby saving the 66 gallons of gas per man per day being expended there.

What a waste.

Thanks, it’s either laugh or cry with that bunch, and I’m a tad more comfortable laughing than crying.

#87461 by farmertx on 7/17 at 10:12 am
(39 comments total)

Max, don’t sell the Shrub so short. He knows very well that Paradox is two doctors. It’s what two doc’s have to do with Pakistan that confuses him. Don’t most doc’s come from India now?
===========================================
That’s worth a repeat.

Max, don’t sell the Shrub so short. He knows very well that Paradox is two doctors. It’s what two doc’s have to do with Pakistan that confuses him. Don’t most doc’s come from India now?

#87431 by Skruff on 7/17 at 7:56 am
(Unregistered commenter)

87420 by Max Shields on 7/17 at 7:18 am

#87238 by Skruff on 7/16 at 8:42 am

Wow, did I say that… ?  It’s not what I meant!
==============================================

The logic of alternatives is usually about sustaining what we’ve got (empire), rather than sustaining the living planet (earth community) that makes all possible.

But, ok, you didn’t mean that. I guess the question is why do we need to convert hydrogen to energy?

May be if we asked some questions than our solutions might find appropriate answers.

#87238 by Skruff on 7/16 at 8:42 am

These exotic notions of saving corporate capitalism with hydrogen gas (since oil is get’n scarce) seems not so much of interest to the environment - the air we breath, the water we drink and the food we eat - but to keep America on a consumption binge that distracts us from our Empire and the mythical stories it weaves about enemies, terrorists, and all sorts of wicked people who are out to get our “americian way of...” over consumption.

I don’t know. But I do know this: Bush hasn’t got a clue what a PARDOX is...so why bother to confuse the issue as if this is a man of reflection.

#87238 by Skruff on 7/16 at 8:42 am

Tony’s right that we seem to have drifed far from the shrub’s Pakistan Parodox, (which has seemingly drifted into a civil war there as well) but just for the heck of it...this “fossil fuel” thing.

You wrote Skruff…

.....:when you hear someone talking about “fossil fuel” ignore them.”....

I’m not sure that’s a good idea, to just ignore them.
I mean, what if it’s a kid or three, clamoring for food in the shape of “fossils”? They make all sorts of strange things like that these days.

So, rather than just ignore people who mention this, maybe it would be better to find out what they’re talking about, or at least what they THINK they’re talking about, so that we can become informed.

And, you can still tell us about getting the hydrogen gas from space, which may in fact be a possiblity, but just nothing that I’m personally familiar with. But then, these gases and things are admittedly not a specialty for me. I don’t know anything about the different grades of oil, or how any of them are processed. I don’t even know if there really is a difference between Premium, Leaded, Unleaded, Regular, or whatever at the gas station. (besides the price). It all looks and smells the same as airplane fuel, but it takes a lot longer to fill-up.

Still, I am interested as well, in how we can get some of this gas from space.

Re #87238 by Skruff on 7/16 at 8:42 am

We seem to have gotten off topic here, but how do you import hydrogen gas from space? I never heard of that.

Re #87016 by Max Shields on 7/15 at 5:53 am

My point about advancing technology making Middle East oil less critical was only presented as one possible motivation for Zionists to try get a grip on U.S. policy to prevent this from undermining support for Israel. I never meant to suggest that such technical advances by themselves are going to solve the political problems. On the contrary, I agree with all that you are saying about oil companies, etc. I like Eisenhower’s concept of the “military-industrial complex. As long as they are running the country, all we are ever going to have is war and environmental and social deterioration. That is what this political moment is really about - can we get rid of these guys and restore our democracy? That is why the impeachment of Bush and Cheney is critical, so that investigations will bring this shadow government we have been living under out of the shadows where the public can see it.

Israel is a secondary problem. The end of U.S. imperialism would mean the end of Israel as we know it. Therefore Zionists are working with U.S. imperialism to keep the U.S. public in the dark - through control of media, and through accusing all critics of the U.S./Israel alliance of anti-Semitism. We should therefore demand of the next administration new U.S. peace initiative that will really support Palestinian human rights, including a boycott of Israel until it agrees to end apartheid and become a real democracy. Israel will be unable to maintain its current posture without U.S. support.
I do agree with you very much that we ought to hold ourselves, the United States, primarily responsible for these problems. To place the primary blame on Israel is indeed a form of paranoia that is remniscent of Nazi anti-Semitism.

#86993 by Tony Wicher on 7/14 at 10:42 pm

Appreciate your clarification.

The problem with energy is the mistreatment of naturally derived sources, coupled with an economic system based on massive consumption (mostly of non-essentials).

The peak oil issue is much like science in general (think global warming). It is never entirely resolved until, in this case, it is too late. The oil companies, much like the tobacco and the health care insurance companies, will continue to toss in additional doubt.

But the real issue is that we know that these sources of energy are limited, and we treat them as if they are endless.  Technology should be applied but not to sustain the trajectory we’re on. Sustainability means staying within natural limits. Taking and putting back. Along with the West (and mostly the US) China and India are now added as takers.

When you have a powerful dynamics of: 1) an economic sysem demanding more and more energy for endless consumption and growth 2) powerful oil lobbiests preserving their methods of oil/gas depletion 3) a way of life that is TOTALLY dependent on oil;
You are not going to see that dynamic budge appreciably. We know that renewable alternatives are essential but not sufficient. We must turn to altering the economic and life style forces.

Historically, though sometimes not perceptibly, for every “problem” technology “solves” it creates usually one or more worse circumstances. I’d keep that in mind as we look for at such solutions to our dilemma. Appropriate technology is essential, but our path needs to be changed - imo - we should not assume that endless growth is devined (as our politicians seem to) and that in fact it is the root cause of our problem.

Re #86961 by Max Shields on 7/14 at 7:49 pm

I think we are largely in agreement. I have been saying that Zionism is not responsible everything U.S. imperialism does. If anything it is the other way around - Zionism is a creation of U.S.-British imperialism. However, I am saying that Zionism is itself a form of imperialism and that these two imperialistic forces are allied. There is clearly a U.S-Israeli military/imperial axis which seeks hegemony in the Middle East. 

I have done a little reading about peak oil, but I am not sure whether the studies are speculative or definitive. Science and technology is improving all the time, and forms of energy production that do not use oil are being developed all the time. This would in fact make Mideast oil less geopolitically critical, and could lead to a U.S. decision to pull out of the Middle East, which would mean abandoning Israel to its fate at the hands of hundreds of millions of angry Arabs, a prospect that Zionists surely do not regard with equanimity. It seems to me that they are pulling out all the stops, relying on the support they have from influential Zionists in this country, to stop this from happening.

#86880 by Tony Wicher on 7/14 at 10:13 am

I understand you are not a geologist. We can’t all be specialist. But a little research, please, before going on with your technology anecdotes on how it will save us from ourselves.

Do a little reading on peak oil. When you’ve caught up, it might make some sense to discuss.

aetho sees zionism as causing everything from trench mouth to pneumonia and most of the 201 overseas military operations the US has been a party to. This includes: invasion in Greece, Yugoslavia, Philipines, Puerto Rico, Chile, Venezuela, Indonesia, Somalia, Cuba, Congo/Zaire, Vietnam, Cambodia, Afghanistan. That doesn’t count Panama and Grenada. All prompted by zionism! Our nearly 800 bases on foreign (sovereign) soil - all zionist inspired!

Let’s start to grow up and understand that we are all complicit in these murderous interventions where thousands, millions of men, women and children are brutally killed and maimed. Are in fact dying while we while away our time pointing fingers at everyone but ourselves. Even Bush is but a pathological result of the inattention paid by the citizens. Sure the media is part of it, the corporations as well. But, this didn’t all happen because the American people stood up and said NO. When did I last hear that resounding sound? That is never uttered. Instead, it’s technology that’ll find a way to keep us endlessly consuming more and more of less and less. Raping the earth and leaving as little as necessary for anyone else - US demands on non-renewable - that’s NON-RENEWABLE - out paces the West and the rest of the world.

The zionists certainly have decimated the Palestinian people using much the same inhuman, racist tactics as the US has been adept at; and yes they’d love to have the US take on Iraq and Syria. But they are not the explanation, not the excuse for the blood on our collective hands.

Re #86843 by atheo on 7/14 at 6:46 am
(211 comments total)

Tony Wicher,

The geopolitical leverage you claim is overdone. Russia produces more petrolem and gas than Saudi Arabia. Iran consumes much of it’s net output. Canada and Venezuela have vastly greater reserves, if you factor in heavy oil. China has developed a new process for producing coal based synfuel at $45/barrel and could be energy self sufficient for centuries. There truly is no geographical concentration of carbon based fuels, such a concept is silly. How would they have become concentrated in just one region?
====================================================
atheo,

Well, I’m not a geologist. You seem to be saying that the world is not “running out of oil” as one often hears. It is certainly true that as science and technology advance, we can discover more oil than we previously may have thought existed, and we will be able to find economical ways of extracting and refining it. Also, we develop various other methods of producing energy which become economically viable - and environmentally cleaner as well. These considerations do tend to make Middle East oil less geopolitically critical as time goes on.

Now I do believe that the U.S. imperialist alliance with Israel and Zionism has been part of its hegemonic plans in the region which have been motivated primarily by the oil. However, if what you say is true, this motivation is decreasing, which would mean that it has less reason to support Israel. The Zionists would be deathly afraid of this, which would leave them all alone in a sea of Arabs, and that is where they would redouble their efforts to influence, perhaps even hijack, the U.S. government. They are awfully good at hijacking. They did it to Palestine; they can do it to us too.

Frank,

Please explain how the occupation of Palestine serves the Saudi “masters”. Documentfor us the Saudi exhortations for the U.S. invasion of Iraq and the saber rattling against Syria.
Note that while the Saudis and Gulf Arabs pay tribute to the U.S.in the way of treasury purchases, the U.S. pays tribute to Israel through billions in annual “aid” and purchase of Israel bonds with public employee pension funds.

Tony Wicher,

The geopolitical leverage you claim is overdone. Russia produces more petrolem and gas than Saudi Arabia. Iran consumes much of it’s net output. Canada and Venezuela have vastly greater reserves, if you factor in heavy oil. China has developed a new process for producing coal based synfuel at $45/barrel and could be energy self sufficient for centuries. There truly is no geographical concentration of carbon based fuels, such a concept is silly. How would they have become concentrated in just one region?

Re #86683 by atheo on 7/13 at 12:55 pm

I would say that the U.S. wants to make sure that there are U.S.-compliant regimes througout the region. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan are obedient. Saddam was disobedient so he is gone. Iran is next, then Syria.  Israel is a big part of that plan for regional hegemony, and always has been. Israel is finally a creation of U.S./British imperialism, starting with the Balfour declaration. Achieving such regional hegemony in the oil-producing states gives the U.S. a huge amount of geopolitical leverage.

Re #86793 by Frank Cajon on 7/13 at 9:47 pm

As I keep pointing out, U.S. imperialism and Israeli imperialism are closely allied. Neither is a puppet of the other. They are in it together. They are allies. U.S. policy is in sync with Israeli policy as it has been for 60 years. It is true that those who see only Zionist manipulation of the U.S. are in danger of falling into anti-Semitism. But those who say Zionism does not have a strong influence on U.S. policy are blind to the obvious facts, and probably making themselves blind because of their fear of being called anti-Semitic by the Zionists.

Do not make the make the mistake of confusing Jews with Zionists. One can be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic, and we have to oppose Zionists who insist on identifying Zionism with Judaism. Judaism is a religion that has existed for thousands of years. Zionism is a 19th-century heresy.

Just an observation, one I have made in a few other threads. I was in my youth a VERY left, socialist, Socialist Workers Party member, SDS member, then active in the Peace and Freedom Party. In the SWP in particular, and with several communists that I associated with at the time, I always had disagreements about the Zionist plot to take over the world, and them running the US government, etc. ad nauseum. I oppose much of the militaristic actions of the Israeli/Palestinian mess taken by both sides and now that I have had some fun making a few posts in this liberal board, I must say that nothing has changed. Too many of you people unfortunately throw out rhetoric I was hearing in 1967. I don’t buy that the Jews were behind 9/11 as some idiots here claim. I don’t get where they believe that Karl Rove and Dick Cheney are Zionist shills and not shills for Saudi Arabia and Lockheed, Enron, and other companies that have skimmed billions from the Iraq war. I guess being on the left means you have to agree with anti-semitic rhetoric, and while I am not religious or from a Jewish family I think most of this rhetoric would be best aimed at the arms dealers in the US, the US oil companies, and the encumbants in the US Congress who regardless of their religious affiliation have financed a genocide for four and a half years while a country of sheep does nothing and the many of the liberals that don’t like it blame it, like in 1930’s Germany, on Jews.

Urls failed to copy:

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178& nid=13407

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=11839800362 10&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer

Why not skim 30 cents on the dollar rather than one tenth of a cent? The recent tax breaks for big oil paid out at 100 cents on the dollar and carried no military risk.

Face it, the supporting evidence on “war for oil” just isn’t there. Where are the signs such as we see here:

New envoy to U.K.: Jews must do more to put Iran on the agenda

The Israeli ambassador-elect to Britain, Ron Prosor, said Tuesday that the Jews around the world and the global community should do more to focus attention on Iran and its nuclear aspirations.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/8
80388.html

=======

Lieberman: US will back Israeli strike on Iran

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/def...d=178& nid=13407

=======

‘Time running out for Iran strike’

Yaakov Katz, THE JERUSALEM POST

Brig.-Gen. Yossi Kuperwasser, former head of Military Intelligence’s Research Division, told The Jerusalem Post on Monday that time to launch an effective military strike against Iran’s nuclear installations was running out.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Sat...ticle% 2FPrinter

Is there any evidence that big oil wanted an invasion of Iraq other than a private meeting that nobody really knows anything about? The case for war for Israel can be supported by endless reams of documentation.

I guess Atheo never heard of skimming. Scum rises to the top even faster than cream.

Earth to atheo, no one believes that Cheney is dumb. He is just so arrogant that he believes he is a world apart from everyone else. Privilege, power and attention do that to one who is self-absorbed and motivated by elements of greed.

So we are to believe that Cheney is so dumb as to spend trillions of taxpayers dollars just to enrich his buds by billions. Earth to theorists, it takes a thousand billion to make a trillion.

Atho, For the same reason a dog licks hisself, Because he can.
Besides Halliburton has the inside track for direct withdrawals from the Treasury.

AllenW...The image of a macho president sitting there with that blank look, because Der Karl wasn’t there to tell him what a real President would be doing, isn’t the kind of message that they should have wanted to send.
Now,if they had planted a drop or two of glycerin near his eye to simulate tears upon hearing the news, well maybe.
Think about that. A real leader would have stood up, made his excuses and went to AF One so he could take charge and take action. Had that been planned, that would have happened.
Having said that, it is entirely possible that the Shootist engineered this, using his secret authority as head of the Invisible Branch of the Government.
There are so many wheels within wheels inside of other wheels that it is all but impossible to keep up.

In response to farmertx #85920: It is precisely BECAUSE Bush was sitting with kids when 9-11 happened that I have believed, from the moment it happened, that somebody in our government knew what was going to happen and planted Bush in an innocent-looking photo op. To take this idea further, if Bush were interested in reading or kids or education,(joke), why hasn’t his spaced-out, do-nothing, stand-for-nothing, totally useless and uninvolved wife at least continued this non-partisan activity? It’s a no-brainer; education, motherhood and apple pie. And the former ‘librarian’ doesn’t even do that much, let alone find a cause , any cause, to foster. What a rotten role model Laura has been.
But back to Pakistan....

#86457 by farmertx on 7/12 at 7:16 pm

...."Cyrena, why should they buy it when our troops can help cover their stealing it? Unwittingly help, to be sure.
The ones who control big oil have fewer ethics and morals than the Shrub and Shootist.
After all, Exxon Mobil was only able to post profits of 9 Billion Dollars in three months. And they have to do better than that to be able to afford to bribe all the politican’s and have some left for themselves.....”

Farmertx:

You said it all right here, and of course when I posed the “suggestion”, I knew perfectly well what the real deal is, and has been from the beginning. It’s always been a matter of controlling the entire region, but it was also supposed to serve the purpose of enriching the oil barons (all of the same signatories to the PNAC)on multiple levels, at the quasi-multinational level, (even though it would be 90% US Oil Corps set-up in Iraq to suck it all up)and at the same time, they’ve also turned billions in profits for all of these same contractors, and then there’s the $3 billion for the last quarter profits for Exxon that you mentioned. Of course that doesn’t exclude all of the others, like Chevron, (Condi’s baby) and Royal Dutch Shell, and the list goes on.

So, there are just “profit benefits” on all sorts of fronts for these guys, and the rest of us are paying for it dearly, with our own blood, treasure, and basic way of life.

And, it’s all been about greed and power. It’s pretty amazing. Nothing prepared me for this..

Farmertx,

Tell us why Cheney would spend $1,000 U.S. treasury dollars to give Exxon $1 rather than just have the U.S. treasury give Exxon $1.

Atho, key words were “US is spending”, not Exxon Mobil is spending. It is OUR money that is helping them, then we have to pay extra at the pump,while they get a subsidy and tax cuts.

Re #86262 by Robert on 7/12 at 9:28 am
(234 comments total)

“The American political system has failed. The fabled checks and balances of American politics were no match for a neoconservative administration with a secret agenda. The American people were deceived and tricked into supporting two invasions that are war crimes under the Nuremberg standard.”

Robert,

I would not say that failure has occurred quite yet, though we are close. Whether there is life in the Constitution yet depends on whether there are enough honest people to defend it. If Cheney and Bush can be impeached, the Constitution and our democracy will be restored. It depends on how far the investigations go. The critical thing is that there must be full public disclosure. No more coverups. Democracy cannot function if the people do not know what is going on.

#86435 by cyrena on 7/12 at 6:01 pm

The Iraqi oil is not the entire story and it’s not just about US getting the oil, it’s also about controlling the Middle East oil access. Hegemony is all about controlling an area. US hegemony is a strategy.

Yes, Iraq is a major oil producing (when it’s not under occupation) country as is Iran. But at bottom we have hit peak oil, many of these oil spots are decreasing in production. It’s too late to unplug us from oil, so the next thing is to realign our economics and shift to small communities.

Not going to be easy. The real fight is with our life style and the market fundamentalists and power brokers who keep our nose in the oil - grow, grow, grow. Not exactly the right mantra for what we’re up against.

What we’re doing in Iraq and Afganistan is pure and simple murder. From the Nation: The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witness
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070730/hedges

Cyrena,

You make an excellent point, Nations that sell oil are actually more dependent on oil sales than those that import the stuff are dependent on imports. After all, the importers can utilise a variety of strategies to bring any exporter in line. They can develop alternatives. They can impose taxes on fuel to reduce demand. They can boycot individual exporters. For example, the U.S. could simply devote a relatively small investment in exploration and development in deep water Gulf of Mexico extraction and go self sufficient within a year for only $25/barrel.

Iraq or Iran meanwhile have nondiversified economies and are totally dependent on oil sales.

Farmertx,

The U.S. is spending $1,000/barrel to get oil from Iraq. Surely Cheney could devise a more efficient way to enrich big oil.

Yes Cyrena, Saudi Arabia and Iran are ziocon targets as listed in the “clean break” documentwhich was prepared for Israel and signed by all the Iraq invasion architects from the Office of Special Plans.

Comment#86278 by atheo on 7/12 at 10:09 am

Thanks for this link atheo.

• #86278 by atheo on 7/12 at 10:09 am
• The new ziocon target:
Neocon Bill Kristol expects Bush to attack Pakistan David Edwards and Muriel Kane
Published: Thursday July 12, 2007

• A Fox host then cited a new report that “al Qaeda ... is running from Iraq, apparently to Pakistan” and asked “did this report come out on purpose so that we will have the right ... to go after Pakistan now?”

Kristol responded, “I think the president’s going to have to take military action there over the next few weeks or months. ... Bush has to disrupt that sanctuary.”

This is pretty much right on target for the “ultimate agenda”, which is to include Iran.
The most addition of the 3rd aircraft carrier warship collection in the Persian Gulf pretty much guarantees this.

Since this most recent claim (and predictably...from kristol) claims that bush has to “disrupt that sanctuary”, we have to wonder if that’s why bush CREATED the alleged ‘sanctuary’ to begin with. Clearly, that’s what they’ve done....give a small and mostly inefficient group a chance to build themselves up, even though I’ve never believed that al-Qaeda had that much of an influence in Iraq -ever-

Obviously they have infiltrated since the invasion and occupation, but the reports from the area have never put them at the fundamental source of the resistance in Iraq.

That makes it still impossible to know if ANY of this is true...like al-Qaeda leaving Iraq for Pakistan...Iran being the ultimate target.

Cyrena, why should they buy it when our troops can help cover their stealing it? Unwittingly help, to be sure.
The ones who control big oil have fewer ethics and morals than the Shrub and Shootist.
After all, Exxon Mobil was only able to post profits of 9 Billion Dollars in three months. And they have to do better than that to be able to afford to bribe all the politican’s and have some left for themselves.

#85892 by Max Shields on 7/11 at 7:11 am

Great comments Max,

With the bottom dropping out as you’ve described, (because EVERYTHING depends on the OIL, and I agree) I’m just wondering how “fantasy-like” the idea would be, for us to simply BUY that oil from the Iraqis themselves, rather than stealing it?

I mean, the oil is there, and the Iraqis DO still have most of their professionals from that industry, trying to hold it together, but obviously very radically opposed to the privatization by the multinationals. (most of them being US corporations under the guise of “multinationals’)

Still, as much as our own survival depends on that oil (under Iraq’s soil) the Iraqis depend on it even more, which is what makes this Hydrocarbon Law, (and particularly the “production-sharing agreements” part of it)a virtual death sentence for the Iraqis and any future economy or independence they might try to regain.

So, since they need to sell it, and we need to buy it, it just seems like we could work that stuff out on paper, and can now suspend all of the killing.

I mean, how much oil could we have purchased from Iraq over the past 5 years, with the trillions that we’ve spent destroying the infrastructures and citizens of these nations?

Comment#86100 by Tony Wicher on 7/11 at 6:32 pm

Let’s talk about Cheney, the puppetmaster. It is beginning to look like Cheney was involved in 9-11. If so, why would he tell idiot Bush? He’s operating at a shadowy level where Presidential authorization is not required.

TONY W:

First, ignore lefty.

Now, the question you pose here, has been dodging me for years. Indeed, I’ve known from day one, that Cheney has always called all of the shots, (or at least most of them...the “important stuff”, like 9-11, and all of the aggressive war-making since) but I admit that I’ve always had to wonder about exactly how much they’ve allowed the shrub to be aware of.

I honestly DON’T think they would tell the shrub, (or at least I didn’t for the first few years)but then other things come to mind, (like how he so immediately started pushing the “war on terror")and considering how totally dense he is, he couldn’t just pop-up with that overnight.

So, even now, it still leaves me baffled, as to how much of any of this, the shrub actually knows. But, there is no doubt that Cheney and his personal and intimate, and mostly secret staff, are running the show.

Meantime, I do lose sleep over the fact that presumably, both shrub and dick have the launch codes.

Found this today and if there is any truth to it, what we know about the Bush clan up to now would make them angels in comparison. I am trying to find more on this subject.

http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20070405.htm

sic"lefti" thinks that a moslem would have the moniker atheo. He must think that I’m as disengenuous as he is.

Quting Max Buz Off Shields:

“Israel has served as a proxy against Hezbollah (Iran/Syria); and sides with the US on all US foreign policies”

“you seem to see Israel and Jews as the cause of all of the world’s ills. There’s an all too frequently mis-used word for that.”

“ if you think that Israel is the perpetrator of racism and a colonization of the Middle East - I say look again.”

“chill and re-think what breathing means to you.”

More fear mongering. Face it, nobody needs Israel to access oil. There is plenty of oil right here in the western hemisphere, producible at a fraction of the current market price. The U.S. imports very little Middle Eastern oil anyway. Stop shilling for zionism Max.

The new ziocon target:

Neocon Bill Kristol expects Bush to attack Pakistan David Edwards and Muriel Kane
Published: Thursday July 12, 2007

Fox News on Thursday asked Neoconservative Bill Kristol to comment on the interim progress report on Iraq, which is about to be released and is expected to show an even split between benchmarks which show progress and those which do not.

“They’re silly benchmarks, a lot of them,” said Kristol. “The military situation is better than anyone expected. ... If Bush can just hang on there and beat back the people in Congress who want to snatch defeat out of the jaws of possible success ... I think we’re going to win this war.”

A Fox host then cited a new report that “al Qaeda ... is running from Iraq, apparently to Pakistan” and asked “did this report come out on purpose so that we will have the right ... to go after Pakistan now?”

Kristol responded, “I think the president’s going to have to take military action there over the next few weeks or months. ... Bush has to disrupt that sanctuary.”

“I think, frankly, we won’t even tell Musharraf,” Kirstol continued. “We’ll do what we have to do in Western Pakistan and Musharraf can say, ‘Hey, they didn’t tell me.’”

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Neocon_Bill_Kristol_urge s_Bush_to_0712.html

#86265 by atheo on 7/12 at 9:32 am

Once and for all, however you’ve interpreted my comments, I do not see Israel as “protecting” us from Hezbollah. I see no reason for anyone to “protect” us from Hezbollah or Hamas, or Iran. I think most of these need to be protected from the Hegemony of the US.

You just don’t seem to understand how transnational corporations work (and although I enjoy reading the opinions of James Petras, I do not take all that he says as conclusive).

If oil were to stop flowing today - there would be no US of A as we know it. We would not have the internet, famine would befall the world as never before - and particularly in the West where alternatives have not been created to sustain a non-oil economy. There would be no electricty, no running water, no clean water, no transportation - other than walking and biking, it would be a calamity like we’ve never seen before - it would top the destruction of all wars combined in terms of death and destruction.

There are alternatives to war and hegemony, but those have not been the global strategy of choice. No, corporations are not going to demand “war” or even suggest it. That’s a false argument. But they and the powers that be know full well what happens with the reduction in oil and the heightened demand of oil (India and China). If you think zionism is more powerful than the destruction - the precipitice destruction - of the West - than I think you ought to chill and re-think what breathing means to you.

Max buz off,

Claiming that Hezbolah is a U.S. foe that Israel serves to protect us from constitutes islamophobia and attempting to silence discussion of the power of the Israel lobby by hurling claims of “anti-semitism” is simply running interference for zionism.
You are nothing but a slick “lefty”.

July 12, 2007

A Referendum on Bush and Cheney
Restoring the People’s Power

By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

“The American political system has failed. The fabled checks and balances of American politics were no match for a neoconservative administration with a secret agenda. The American people were deceived and tricked into supporting two invasions that are war crimes under the Nuremberg standard.

US aggression against Afghanistan and Iraq and the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians have radicalized Muslims throughout the world and swelled the ranks of insurgents. Despite the “surge” and an additional 30,000 US troops in Baghdad, the US is unable to protect its own embassy. On July 10, the fortified Green Zone, which contains the US and British embassies and the puppet Iraqi government, came under intense mortar and rocket attack. Within the protected Green Zone, 18 people were wounded and 3 were killed.

The US military commander in Iraq, General David Petraeus said that the US is a decade away from victory in Iraq. Gen. Petraeus could have added another truth and acknowledged that the US military lacks sufficient fresh troops to remain in the conflict. Last year Colin Powell said the US Army is “about broken.” The US military is exhausted by the insurgencies and will be driven out if not withdrawn.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts07122007.html

#86233 by atheo on 7/12 at 8:10 am

Is reading beyond you? I haven’t posted anything on this thread about Islam or Zionism. You seem profoundly stuck on that subject. I’ve made clear where I stand on other sites and threads - ones you frequent. But you insist on turning every comment into one of zionism.

A little critical thinking and proportionality would be my suggestion before you beat the one issue you obsess over into the ground. I’ve simply asked some questions. You can address them or not, otherwise, BUZ OFF.

Islamophobe Max Shields offers only simplistic “easy” explanations:

“It’s easy to say that we’ve lost our democracy to theocracy or to the corporations. But who in the hell is addressing it?”

Yes, it’s easier to deny the reality that we are dominated by ziocon Israel first fanatics. Max Shields makes a full time job of pointing us away from the obvious.

The Shrub has gotten away with all this, not because of any one reason, but a host of reasons.
Starting with the attack on 9/11 by a religious zealot. Conspriracy theories abound and with good cause.
But the Shrub has a masterful Disinformation Bureau headed by Der Karl.
The Democrat’s had lost sight of the original party goals and chose instead to go after the money.
Then, here comes Karl attacking anyone who espoused common sense as being a supporter of terrorism.
Remember Walter Reed? One GOP Congress critter was complaining to Reeds’ CO about conditions, but he refused to bring it up in Congress, lest he be labeled as not supporting the troops.
It seems that we need a Constitutional Convention to rewritesome rules about Congress and politics in general.
But that would bring out every kook in the country, insisting on his own special pet peeve being addressed, rather than all of us working together for the common good.
Shrubs’ puppet master’s thought this out well. Create so much division and dissention in the country that nothing good can be done.
Just as the Governor of Texas helped finance two rivals campaign to split the vote, allowing him to coast to another term with only 36% of the vote. (Run off for every other position, but not for the Governor in Texas.)
These folks plan ahead. And we the people have to come together...remember Divided we fall, United we stand? Applies only too well today.

Bush is a problem. No doubt about it.

But...is there no US constitution, no judicial system, no substantive/binding legistative oversight branch, no voters, no checks and balances?

Do these things just appear and disappear when convenience allows?

The Dems have taken impeachment off the table, they are negotiating a long occupation with a gradual redeployment (not a withdrawal from the region).

No one can deny that we have a president who is what has been clearly stated (over and understated). But where in the hell is everyone else? Does this system depend on the benevolence every administration, otherwise it become a dictatorship?

It’s easy to say that we’ve lost our democracy to theocracy or to the corporations. But who in the hell is addressing it? Who is addressing the fact that Dems presided over all but one US war during the 20th Century. What are the crimes of Bosnia we committed? Or the multiple Iraq bombings throughout 1990s?

Every day Americans (you and me) are killing innocent civilians, men, women and children in Afganistan and Iraq. We all know the statistics, and we hear about the endless reports.

How is it that a man of limited intelligence and absolutely no imagination could be the sole reason for all of this?

With the Bushies there is no paradox. Bush watchers know that principles, morality, and concern for the people are never in the Bush equation. Therefore, Pakistan is used like the American people to cynically gain whatever advantage that corrupt BushCo can gain. Paradox is not a good word here because with Bush you know what you see is like a photo op: it is meaningless. What you know is that BushCo will betray the people for his own ends. So appearances mean nothing in terms of belief or our own surety.

Comment#86183 by Verne Arnold on 7/12 at 4:12 am
Yeah Verne...this would be one way to describe it

...."One cannot possibly act in the appropriate way with out all of the facts...can we say this whole thing is Kafkaesque?"…

Scares the living shit out of me, since I stopped underestimating them a real long time ago. BUT..they’ve gone to a whole ‘nother level that even I could never have imagined.

So, I guess Kfkaesque is as good as “the rabbit hole”.

Sometimes I wonder if it’s finally getting me.

#85972 by NYT9237723 on 7/11 at 11:59 am
And
#86019 by Mudwollow on 7/11 at 2:03 pm

NYT9237723...you are likely correct.

Mudwollow...thanks...your post woke me up to NYT’s post...I think you both are very correct.  This is very scary because we (I) have been grossly underestimating bush and I’ve been taking comfort in my exceptional and imaginative use of adjectives to describe him and his policies; this whole situation...this is grave and incredibly dangerous.  It sends a cold chill down my whole body.  He must be laughing and taking great pleasure in his diabolical deceptions…and they’re working.

One cannot possibly act in the appropriate way with out all of the facts...can we say this whole thing is Kafkaesque?

#86119 by Frank Cajon on 7/11 at 7:37 pm

Frank, thank you soooo much for your excellent diagnosis of george bush. I too, have posted my genuine concerns about his rather clear (at least to me) mental/personality disorder. I’m definitely not up on the professional breakdown that you’ve provided, but I’ve sure as hell known that he was crazy, because I know many others like him. For the most part, they aren’t dangerous, because they don’t hold positions of power.

This is what happens when they DO get that power, and it’s scary. I’ve been feeling terrorized for the past 7 years.

Thanks again for the info.

I’ll say it again, we need to involve the whole country in this...we need a draft of all able bodied men and women 18 to 30....this will supply the military with its needs and will disrupt our country in the same way that we have disrupted others...this will create a wave of Americans that will have to stand up and be noticed to prevent their owns sons and daughters from dying....quite powerful I would think…

Also, when are other countries going to start boycotting the US?  If the UK or Germany or other countries were that irritated by the way that the US is behaving, sanctions should be called for...this might even save their country from being targets...saying “no” to the war in Iraq would have been good...but that is passive...an non-action...when will they take action...sanctions are the same tactic used by the US and other players in the global sphere for global misbehavior....if China were to say....ah you know what...I’m not selling toys made with lead based paint or tainted food to you anymore because you promote terrorism...which in a sense is what the NIE said...if our actions have not prevented the growth, then it could be said that our actions have promoted terrorism…

If you’d like to learn more about Pakistan’s involvement with 9/11 please watch the following Google video:

9/11 Press for Truth

First, with ‘allies’ like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, who were with Afganistan harboring and financing Islamic extremist terrorists, unlike Iraq, long before 9/11 and have ever since, I just give thanks that I haven’t had to give up a son, daughter or close relative to Emporer Bush’s lost campaign.
Even my very conservative, formerly GOP wife of 33 years keeps telling me ‘We should bomb the Saudi Arabia’, and while I would rather we withdraw troops from the entire region and freeze Saudi nationals bank accounts. I still wonder why Saudi princes are treated like the Pope here while children in Saudi schools are taught to hate Americans as enemies in a holy war where suicide bombing is martyrdom.
Second, the article calls Bush an idiot. I think that does true idiots a disservice. It is true that he is a pathological liar, a megalomanic, and a dangerously arrogant, paranoid man. While he is of low average intelligence he is clearly also mentally ill and I have made this point elswhere on the board. He meets most of the diagnostic criteria of a classic Paranoid Schizophrenic, functioning on the surface perhaps with a higher than expected ‘global affective functioning’ (GAF), but with such clear symptoms as having auditory hallucinations of religious delusional content, ideas of reference in his suspiciousness and paranoia, poor reality contact, pressured speech with jumbling of words and making up new ones (neologisms), inappropriate affect (laughing at things that aren’t funny, or being serious about things that are ridiculous), repetition of the same phrases over and over (echolalia), delusional thought processes-and many other more clinical indicators of what is called a formal thought disorder. He needs to be thoroughly evaluated by Board-Certified Psychiatrists to determine if he is fit under the 25th Amendment, Article 4 to hold office. Get this man some help, some antipsychotic medications. He has the nuclear launch codes, get him on meds before God tells him to launch. He’s not an idiot. He is mentally disabled. I work in the field. When Jesus tells you he selected you for a special mission to be the leader of the country, that isn’t really Jesus, it is part of religious auditory hallucination.
Third, if Bush is fully evaluated and is somehow cleared by a board of highly qualified specialists, then we will likely be left with what is called his ‘Axis II’ diagnosis, in this case more than likely an Antisocial Personality Disorder. This is very common among violent criminals but also white-collar criminals who commit fraud, confidence crimes, embezzlement,