#87278 by Skruff on 7/16 at 1:22 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: #87278 by Skruff on 7/16 at 1:22 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

***This isn’t a partisan issue, Skruff, but an American one. I doubt most Americans would reject a legislative effort to improve FISA as long as the Constitutional rights we have weren’t blatantly disregarded, AND it went through the legislative vetting process. What Americans object to is having no input in the matter; to having the ‘decider’ make our choices, and doing it in a secretive illegal manner, without allowing Congress’ right to oversight. ALL government employees, from top to bottom, are there to serve the people, and we expect them to obey laws on the books, just as we are expected to do the same.

The argument that FISA laws are too slow is a strawman and I stand by my previous statement, to wit: 

***The claim by BushCo that it (Edit: FISA) is too cumbersome and slow to respond to the timely needs of the intelligence community is a bald-faced lie designed as a rationale to criminally circumvent the law. How could this be the case when provisions in the law allow intelligence agencies to IMMEDIATELY initiate a wiretap, then get an approval later? How does this in any way impede a legitimate investigation?***

Since this article deals a lot with polls here are some numbers for you:

The poll was conducted by Zogby International, the highly-regarded non-partisan polling company. The poll interviewed 1,216 U.S. adults from January 9-12,2007.

The poll found that 52% agreed with the statement:

“If President Bush wiretapped American citizens without the approval of a judge, do you agree or disagree that Congress should consider holding him accountable through impeachment.”

And:

A CNN poll conducted by Opinion Research Corp. on May 16-17, 2006 found that 50 percent of the respondents believe the program was “wrong,” while 44 percent believe it was “right.”

And just what was Skruff trying to prove by posting a comment by Admiral Woolsey in defense of the so-called “Terrorist Surveillance” program?  Does the mere fact that Woolsey was the first DCI to serve under Clinton mean that we are supposed to accept this criminal violation of FISA as lawful when FISA by its express terms provides that it is the “exclusive” means by which such surveillance is to be conducted?

If, as Woolsey asserts, something more rapid than FISA retroactive approval is needed, the proper course would have been to go to Congress and ask that the statute be modified.  The proper course never involves unilateral executive lawlessness.

There is no showing that Woolsey, who no longer serves in the CIA, was privy to the actual workings of the program.  The 3/1/06 WaPo article cited by Skruff centers on the testimony of Alberto “I can’t recall a thing” Gonzales.  The AG described the program as a “Terrorist Surveillance Program.” Since no one in Congress was permitted access to the actual program, we are supposed to simply accept this prevaricator’s description at face value?  Yeah, and if you do, you can go along with the other fairy tales, like Iraqi WMD, links to al Qaeda and 9/11 and the claim that politics did not influence the decision to fire nine U.S. attorneys.

Left off of Skruff’s, and Woolsey’s, inane comments is the fact that FISA provides for retroactive approval of warrantless searches in emergency situations where the AG determines that the factual basis exists but there is insufficient time to get advance approval.  The AG doesn’t have to go to the FISA courts for approval for up to 72 hours.  The exigent circumstance claim has a hollow ring to it, especially given the track record of the FISA courts where during the period 1995 to 2004, the FISA courts turned down only four out of 10,617 surveillance requests.

The most logical explanation as to why the administration would not go before the FISA courts entails the likelihood that this warrantless surveillance was not directed at “terror suspects” but instead was directed at political opponents.  That also explains why General Hayden refused to testify under oath whether the program was directed at political opponents.  The only reason for not going before the FISA courts even retroactively is that the administration knows full well that it was illegally spying on Americans.

For those interested in the extent to which we have devolved into a surveillance society, I would recommend “No Place to Hide” by Robert O’Harrow, Jr.

Finally, the purpose of the NSA massive data base is explained by the symbol Admiral John Poindexter--a pyramid, topped by an all seeing eye.  Beneath it was the inscription, Scienter Est Potentia--Latin for “Knowledge Is Power.” This explains why the Bush administration wants to know everything about us, and wants us to know literally nothing about what it does.  In the final analysis, everything this administration does can be explained by its ultimate goal, power, pure, unrestricted and perhaps unending power!

Comment #85276 by PaulMagillSmith on 7/09 at 3:58 am

• Ok Hondo, since you called me out I’m going to respond. While I understand my time might be better utilized, since it appears you have been consuming mass quantities of Republican cool aid & haven’t been keeping abreast of events (or just delusional), it is the duty of all patriots to confront mis-information & ‘spin’ wherever encountered.

Paul, this is great. Took me a while to catch up with these comments, (since you made them a week ago). But, indeed we DO have this “patriotic duty” to confront disinformation, misinformation, and downright lies, whenever encountered.

To NOT do so, would make us complicit. It’s hard work, (and oftentimes, seemingly thankless) but....somebody’s gotta do it. Seems like it’s left up to those of us who have been disenfranchised, leaving us with enough time on our hands, (limited employment for whatever the mulitiple reasons) so we can just do this stuff instead, even though we aren’t getting paid.

So, THANK YOU....keep up the good work!!

I call this all civic duty.

Cyrena, Ernest, & Mike Mid-City,

I think Hondo is too brainwashed by the neo-CON spin to ever change. Maybe his livlihood depends on a check from them to spout his so called ‘facts’ LOL. He’s obviously too brain-dead to realize that when the Constitution gets shredded it impinges on the liberties of ALL Americans. The past quarter century, especially since 2000, have posed a greater threat to our Republic than Hitler, Mao, and King George III ever did.

You know, if polls supported the positions taken by the radical right I’m sure they would tout them highly through the MSM they control. Fortunately for us the gorilla in the room has shown himself to be a small monkey by his actions, and more & more Americans are taking the European attitude that the government should fear the people rather than the other way around.

During the Viet Nam fiasco it took us a number of years of protest to reach the ‘tipping point’ of overcoming the government propaganda aimed at inculcating the public with the belief we were fighting a justifiable war, legally initiated, and thoughtfully carried out. When, through polling BTW, the pendulum swung the other way, people realized Johnson started it by means of a ‘false flag’ operation, and the Constitutional threat of Nixons illegal wiretapping became evident, the majority of Americans (once again through polling BTW) realized winning the war while losing our Constitutionally granted liberties was not a good trade. Then, EVERYONE wanted to jump on the bandwagon to end the war. Only a few early on had the bravery & courage to take on the right-wing pro-war elements that led us into the slaughter. We were arrested, beaten, and ostracized continually & repeatedly, but prevailed because the higher standards of morality were on our side. The right was wrong and the left was right.

Following the criminal activities of the Republican Nixon administration FISA was created. Americans just don’t like being illegally spied upon by their government (or the wayward agencies in it). The claim by BushCo that it is too cumbersome and slow to respond to the timely needs of the intelligence community is a bald-faced lie designed as a rationale to criminally circumvent the law. How could this be the case when provisions in the law allow intelligence agencies to IMMEDIATELY initiate a wiretap, then get an approval later. How does this in any way impede a legitimate investigation? 

A number of posts back I proposed that instead of us ‘preaching to the choir’ on sites like this & others with a similar social opinion, our time would be better spent by going to sites on the right and posting our comments there. Hondo must have read that post and come here from right wing sites, but there is a major difference---his ‘facts’ are wrong or twisted, and although he may come from the side of the right he is not on the right side.

Hondo, if you support people that continually lie to us like this administration your personal ‘values’ are corrupt, and you have no credibility. Using an acronym I believe I have seen Mike Mid-City use previously, sit down, have a steaming cup of STFU, and listen. You obviously haven’t done your homework, or you wouldn’t spout off with some of the erroneous information you have garnered & propound.

Although it is probably a futile effort I will take the time to ask you one more question. Is there anything major this administration has done that is criminal & warrants full public disclosure, investigation, and possible trial? (and we aren’t interested in any “Well Clinton did it, too” diatribe or comparisons)

It appears that our resident Limbaugh ditto-head, Hondo, is a dishonest propagandist.  Whenever confronted with “facts” and “evidence” that do not fit within the confines of his narrow, right-wing world view, he simply denounces them as “liberal lies.” He makes up allegations from whole cloth.  There is no evidence that Clinton or Gore ever authorized warrantless domestic eavesdropping by the NSA or any other federal agency.  Targeted domestic eavesdropping by the FBI pursuant to a warrant is not illegal.  How does he think the FBI investigates the Mafia?

Hondo’s assertion that FISA was “amended” by a Clinton executive order only underscores the degree of his ignorance.  Hondo, laws can be only amended by act of Congress.  An executive order that is contrary to the law is a violation of the law.  While the Bush/Cheney regime has sought to overcome this by issuing more Presidential signing statements during the first four years of the Bush presidency than “all” former presidents in U.S. history combined during the more than 200 years history of this Republic, a bi-partisan study done by the American Bar Association forcefully argues that these signing statements are unlawful and amount to a violation of the president’s constitutional duty to see that the laws are faithfully executed.

FISA provides a comprehensive statutory scheme for conducting electronic surveillance for foreign intelligence and national security.  Under FISA a warrant is authorized if the government produces evidence the individual who is the target of the surveillance is an agent of a foreign power or group.  FISA permits very brief emergency exceptions in which the Attorney General can seek retroactive approval within 72 hours of the initiation of surveillance where there is insufficient time, or within 15 days of a formal declaration of war where “there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communications where a United States person is a party.” FISA expressly states that it is the “exclusive means by which electronic surveillance...and the intereception of domestic wire, oral and electronic communications may be conducted.” FISA makes the conduct of electronic surveillance outside the scope of the FISA statute a felony.

As observed in “Articles of Impeachment against George W. Bush” published by the Center for Constitutional Rights, Bush’s “NSA program is flatly criminal.” Article 2 of the Nixon impeachment dealt with a charge that Nixon “repeatedly engaged in conduct violating constutional rights of citizens....” The House charged Nixon with misusing the intelligence services by directing them to “conduct...electronic surveillance or other investigations for purposes unrelated to national secuirty, the enforcement of the laws, or any other lawful function of office.”

Cyrena’s critique of your blatantly dishonest effort to deny the existence of the NSA data collection effort with assistance of the telecommunications industry was spot on.  Hondo, you did not “refute” a single “fact” from my prior post.  You merely revealed the level of your ignorance and dishonesty.  Shame on you!

#87142 by Hondo on 7/15 at 6:48 pm
Hondo, is this REALLY what you call “fact and reason”?
I mean, read it again. This is your explanation for how we “know” that bush isn’t wiretapping or otherwise collecting data from domestic transmissions, (phone and internent…I added the internet part).

• We do know that the Bush administration isn’t spying on exclusively-domestic conversations. We know that because Bush (stupidly, in my opinion) left a whole bunch of Clinton appointees in their positions within the NSA, the CIA, and the FBI. These leftovers have done nothing but undermine our president over and over again. If Bush was breaking the law, one of the leftovers would be singing an opera for The New York Times.

So, this is how we know….huh? Because Clinton left behind some career professionals in all of these bureaus/agencies, (and one does not become a career professional in ANY of these fields, in 1 or 2 political cycles) and so…in your logic, we know that this isn’t going on, because these “bad guys” left over from that bad guy Clinton administration, would be spilling the beans, or as you put it, singing an opera for The New York Times. That’s all very theatrical in a thuggish sort of way, but that’s more in keeping with Dick Bush politics than the New York Times. The New York Times has published thousands of occasions of bush breaking the law. I’ve published multiple occasions of it myself. So have hundreds of thousands of others. You can’t pick up a newspaper in the 21st Century, without at least a few dozen of them, (on any given day) without seeing the bush crimes spelled out. So, I’m really certain that the NYT or any other newspaper, is NOT dependent on these left-over “bad guys” for information. HELL, bush finally got around to telling everybody himself. And, nobody that knows the bush mentality, would have believed him for a second.

• By the way, we do know, for a fact, that Bill Clinton and Al Gore DID authorize wiretapping on exclusively domestic calls. I mentioned that previously. Why didn’t you respond to that? Cat got your tongue?

You obviously weren’t posting this to me, but since I DON’T know that Clinton and Gore did this, (I really can’t see Al Gore caring the least about wiretapping, or Clinton either for that matter..definitely not AL) So anyway, what “evidence” did you provide, to prove that Clinton/Gore indulged in this activity?

• You mentioned the FISA law. Pres. Bush did not violate that law. Didn’t you know that Slick Willie amended the FISA law by executive order in 1995? Bush is covered by the executive order.

Here again, you’re a moron Hondo. Executive orders don’t “amend” laws like FISA. (you must have executive orders mixed up with all of these secret signing statements that cheney’s attorneys work up for george to sign to attach to every law that he has no intention of recognizing). The e/o that Clinton created only STRENGTHENED the law. So, if you’re not ignorant as Ernest says, then maybe you’re just very confused.

• You mentioned the phone companies that supposedly helped “collect data” for Pres. Bush. That particular myth was debunked within one week of the story first hitting the paper. It just wasn’t true…..That whole story was a liberal lie that the drive-by media held up as truth.

Well Hondo, I think you might be wrong here again. BECAUSE….those very companies that Ernest mentioned, (and a few others) all have multiple class actions suit against them and the NSA, for giving over data that violated the privacy of millions of customers. Here’s a link to a few of them. These lawsuits have all gone forward, and because they are class action suits, your favorite telecommunications giants might start to sweat things out a bit. Do ya think mr cheney might cover their losses out of his own pocket?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/16/NSA.suit/index.html

RE: #86977 by Mike Mid-City on 7/14 at 8:57 pm

All points truth, Mike.

RE: #86970 by Ernest Canning on 7/14 at 8:49 pm

My comments by paragraph:

1) Criminality, which is also hypocritical according to “values”.

2) Obfuscation by slight of hand with un-necessary data.

3) Refusal to answer inquiry of criminal activity

4) Violated FISA , designed for just such an attempt…felonious.

5) All call database with surveillance ability

6) The unitary executive loses to the “will”.

What more can one say? There’s ample evidence.

Hondo:  1) Neither you nor anyone else outside the administration knows the true scope of Bush’s presidential authorization for the NSA to conduct warrantless domestic electronic eavesdropping because the administration has refused to reveal the scope of the order. 

2) There is no reason to believe the program was limited to calls between suspected overseas terrorists and U.S. residents.  For starters, the choice of the NSA rather than the FBI involves application of technology capable of instantaneously trapping the entire stream of domestic/overseas communications.  Early news accounts in both the NY Times and Wash. Post revealed the NSA program innundated the FBI with useless data involving thousands of innocent Americans.  Although the NY times reported that “virtually all...current and former officials” said that the program “led to dead ends or innocent Americans,” the administration and corporate media pundits continue to tout it as an essential tool in the so-called “war on terror.”

3) When pressed, Gen. Michael Hayden--who headed the NSA from 1999-2005, refused to say explicitly that the Bush administration is not spying on political opponents.  If it was, this would amount to the Watergate break-in on a grand scale.

4) Bush’s order amounts to a federal crime as it violates FISA, which by its express terms, makes such a violation a felony.  It also violates the Fourth Amendment.  One of the articles of impeachment brought against Richard Nixon entailed a similar effort at domestic spying.

5) On 5/11/06 USA Today revealed the NSA, aided by AT & T, Verizon & Bell Southj, secretly collected the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans.  One source asserted the agency created “the largest data base ever assembled in the world,” adding the goal was “to create a database of every [domestic] call ever made.” While the telecommunications companies were not handing over “names, addresses and other personal information,” such information can be readily obtained by cross-checking the phone numbers against other data bases.  Like the unlawful NSA surveillance, the administration claimed this was an anti-terrorist program.  If that were true, it would mean that every American capable of making a phone call is a suspected terrorist.

I don’t want to seem blunt or rude, but, frankly Hondo, ignorance like yours is not bliss.  In this day and age where a lawless “Unitary Executive” stands as a threat to the very survival of our Constitutional democracy and the rule of law, your ignorance is downright dangerous.

Having Bush and his friends representing our interests is like having a clueless, corrupt uncle representing your family. Since what others see are the fruits of the clueless, corrupt uncle, they believe that the rest of us are as clueless, incompetent, ruthless, Machiavellian and reckless as Shrub and company.

Hondo,
Your replies regarding my (& others’) rebuttals to your original post are inadequate, incorrect, and what I would expect from a completely branwashed stooge of the Republicans. Frankly any further attempt to relay real truths about the mess our government, and particularly the anti-social Republicans (but not entirely I admit), have gotten us into in the past quarter century seems an exercise in futility with someone with as closed a mind as you exhibit. Is Bush’s fault of being hardheaded in the face of provable facts contagious or something?

I will, since you did mention this one issue, send a little more information your way.

“And a 2000 report by the World Health Organization, the most recent available from the U.N. organization, put the United States 37th out of 190 nations in health care services — between Costa Rica and Slovenia. France was rated No. 1, the United Kingdom in the 18th spot, Canada at No. 30 and Cuba a couple of notches behind the United States in the 39th spot.”

I’m sure, by having the number of Americans without any health coverage swell to a record 46 million under Bush’s watch, our position on the WHO scale has gone down rather than up. But I guess everything , no matter how well documented is just “America’s liberaliars and Cultural Marxists” speaking if it was found anywhere other than Fox (faux) News (noise). What planet are you from, Hondo? Rome is burning. Is that a match I see you hiding behind your back? Or a fiddle? Or both?

I just noticed on another of your ignorant rants you have no spelling or word choice ability. Here’s a correction you should pay very close attention to, “...the conservative majority...”. Either you are delusional or you don’t realize the word MINORITY isn’t spelled with a ‘J’.

We aren’t hearing the neo-cons shouting out, “America, love it or leave it!” anymore, because it’s a whisper compared to the roar of OUR majority now clamoring, “America, love it AND fix it!!!”

***Thankyou Skruff for the link making my point with Hondo about medical care in the US as compared to other nations.***

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/parenting/05/08/mothers .index/index.html

Hondo said:

“4. Health Care--Contrary to the liberal lies being spun by America’s Cultural Marxists and Liberaliars, the United States has the finest health care system in the world.”

***To which I replied”

***...The only thing that I can tell you is America has the MOST EXPENSIVE health care in the world, but it is NOT the best. In numerous categories America vies with third world countries and in some of them America is near the bottom for industrialized countries...***

***And the facts revealed:

U.S. has second worst newborn death rate in modern world, report says
By Jeff Green
CNN

“American babies are three times more likely to die in their first month as children born in Japan, and newborn mortality is 2.5 times higher in the United States than in Finland, Iceland or Norway, Save the Children researchers found.

Only Latvia, with six deaths per 1,000 live births, has a higher death rate for newborns than the United States, which is tied near the bottom of industrialized nations with Hungary, Malta, Poland and Slovakia with five deaths per 1,000 births.

“The United States has more neonatologists and neonatal intensive care beds per person than Australia, Canada and the United Kingdom, but its newborn rate is higher than any of those countries,” said the annual State of the World’s Mothers report.”

***Of particular interest to me are these findings:

“The report said that family planning and increased contraception use leads to lower maternal and infant death rates.”

and,

“Tinker said some nations ranked high in part because they offer free health services for pregnant women and babies, while the United States suffers from disparities in access to health care.”

***Since Bush adamantly opposes anything but abstinence only for birth control, and through his privatization of medical services policy, with insufficient attention to medical services for more than just wealthy Americans, does this mean he is not only killing people in other countries, but in this country as well? This is certainly a poor legacy for someone who hypocritically claims to be pro-life (read anti-choice here).***

“3. Civil Liberties/Due Process--Here in America, agents of the government are limited in the ways they can interfere in your daily living of life. You can’t be denied life, liberty or property without due process of law.”

Hondo must have been talking about corporate liberties.

(Sorry folks, this post should actually follow the one below this one. It’s a four part post and this is actually the second part)

“1. Religious Freedom--People from every corner of the globe, representing every religion that there is, flock to the United States because they are allowed to practice their religious faith in peace. There haven’t been very many countries in the history of the world that allow that.”

***While people may still feel free to worship as they please in this country there is a concerted effort, especially by right wing Christian Fundamentalists, to eventually control every aspect of our society. Good examples are dubious ‘Faith Based Initiatives’, which lack oversight as to where funding is really going, what it is being used for, and how much it violates the separation of church & state as proposed wisely by the founding fathers. Another example of the encroachment of religious tones on public policy is on the issue of Pro-Choice or Anti-Choice, which should be strictly a matter of public health policy, rather than religious ideology; it’s part of the, “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” guarantee. Last, but hardly least, is the enormous impact AIPAC, primarily a foreign religion oriented organization, has on our government officials.***

“2. Economic Freedom--The U.S. is one of the most economically free countries in the world. We have a free market that allows anyone to “pursue happiness"--what the Founders understood to mean “property rights” and what Pres. Bush calls the “ownership society.” If you work hard and persevere, you can own a piece of the American Dream.”

***When 1% of the populace controls 90% of the pie it is a situation common in third world countries of ‘haves & have-nots’. The majority of this country work for their living, and they are sliding farther & farther behind, while the ones raking it in make their income without working from dividend & interest income. Actually, in many European countries citizens have a greater chance at upward mobility now than Americans. For the lower income people in this country the so-called “American Dream” is now a nightmare impossible to awaken from or escape. Americans are now working harder & longer and their real wages continue on a downward trend. Prosperity? Yeah, if you’re on the top rung of the ladder, but that doesn’t mean you have to kick the people below you off of it.***

“3. Civil Liberties/Due Process--Here in America, agents of the government are limited in the ways they can interfere in your daily living of life. You can’t be denied life, liberty or property without due process of law.”

***Surely you jest! Suspension of habeas corpus, illegal wiretaps, no-knock laws, eminent domain claims to build shopping malls, Scooter Libby having his sentence commuted while non-treasonous non-violent pot offenders languish in prison with much longer sentences, broken international treaties, the AG misleading Congress, and saying torture is ok, signing statements, Valerie Plame outed & her career destroyed. The list of violations is too lengthy for the word maximum TD allows. BushCo thinks they are not only above the law, but they are the law, anyway they choose to writeit.***

(Due to length this post is in four parts)

Ok Hondo, since you called me out I’m going to respond. While I understand my time might be better utilized, since it appears you have been consuming mass quantities of Republican cool aid & haven’t been keeping abreast of events (or just delusional), it is the duty of all patriots to confront mis-information & ‘spin’ wherever encountered. What you assert, as factual information might have been true in the America we once knew, but since BushCo, or even farther back to Nixon & Reagan, got their greedy clutches on our once world-respected country, they have truly made a mess of things. (BTW, I am NOT a Dem, so don’t even go there. My issues are not partisan; rather they are what you might call fundamentalist patriotic, progressive, and adherent to the Constitution.)

Let’s take a look first at your so-called ‘Five points’, and you will see my comments denoted by ***

Here’s what you said:

#85228 by Hondo on 7/08 at 8:34 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“Maria Cocco-Puffs is stupidly wrong when she says that there isn’t anything to admire about the United States. Following are the Top 5 Things To Admire About the United States:”

***We start off in agreement that she is wrong to say there isn’t ANYTHING admirable about the United States. Of course there is, but this is attributable to the decency of the average citizen, and NOT to the actions of our government, especially as of late.***

(continued)

“4. Health Care--Contrary to the liberal lies being spun by America’s Cultural Marxists and Liberaliars, the United States has the finest health care system in the world. That’s why people flock here from every country of the world to have their health issues cared for.”

***I don’t know where you get your information, but you truly need to investigate more than the sources you are using. The only thing that I can tell you is America has the MOST EXPENSIVE health care in the world, but it is NOT the best. In numerous categories America vies with third world countries and in some of them America is near the bottom for industrialized countries. Then there is the 31% eaten up by administrative costs, primarily due to insurance company procedures (Medicare admin costs are less than 2% by the way, proving privatization is NOT cost effective). Then there are the 47 million Americans who don’t know if American medical care is good or not, because they only go for treatment in dire emergencies often too late to do any good, BECAUSE THEY DON’T HAVE PRIVATE INSURANCE.***

“5. American Charity and Hospitality--There has never, in the history of the world, been a country that has amassed as much power and wealth as the U.S., and used that power and wealth for as much good, as the U.S. We saved the world from the evil forces of totalitarianism in two different world wars, and we sacrificed more than 500,000 lives to do it. Public, private and corporate international aid to the rest of the world amounts to about $35 billion annually. No other country in the world gives as much as we do.”

***As a percentage of GDP we donate far less to alleviate world suffering than numerous smaller countries do...and we attach all kinds of strings to our gifts (like the right to install a military base in the particular country). It could be compared to the deathrow inmate they won’t hang until he gets over the cold he has. Sure, we’ll come cure you, but then we reserve the right to bomb the hell out of you. Unfortunately, many recipients are is such dire desperate situations they have no choice other than accept the aid.
Oh yes we did help end totalitarian threats, but now we are well on the way to becoming that same thing we despised and fought against AND your hero Bush’s grandfather (Prescott) aided the Nazis as his friends, The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree there, does it?***

“I have a suggestion for Marie Cocco-Puffs. If she thinks that America is such a rotton place, maybe she should leave. I’m sure that her “journalistic style” would be well received in places like Cuba, Venezuela, or Iran.”

***My family has been in this country 373 years now, and I’m damned sure not leaving MY country. Since you are now in an ever-shrinking minority why the hell don’t YOU leave? The ever-growing majorities in this country now agree with me and we are staying here to fight against the mess this, and other, Republican/Democrat administrations have gotten us into. Your tired old cliche of “America, love it or leave it” has become “America, don’t leave it just fix it.” ***

Or not.

“P.S. to PaulMagillSmith: During the Clinton Administration, when the world “loved” America, there were 14 major terrorist attacks against American targets. There’s been one attack (9/11) since Pres. Bush took over. That kind of makes your closing words in Comment #84620 look kind of silly, doesn’t it?”

***Ok, so here’s the comment, but before I go to it I would like to point out from 1993 to 2001 we had no foreign terrorist attacks in America. That’s 8 years my friend, longer even than BushCo have been in control AND Clinton didn’t spend the untold billions on ‘Homeland Security’ BushCo has soaked us for.

The comment in question:

-----------------------

Be an ignorant hardhead like Bush, if it pleases you, and ignore how the rest of the world polls in relation to their unhappiness with American policy as proposed by this administration, but when (note I didn’t say if) there is another attack on our shores it will be people like you & Bush/Cheney who are responsible, because YOU JUST WOULDN’T LISTEN.

-----------------------
Well her it comes and I know you won’t like it, but there is ample & daily increasing evidence BushCo either caused 9/11 or allowed it to happen. Either way, they used it as a tool to fearmonger the public so they could gain control of America as outlined in the PNAC ‘bible’. There are numerous examples of ‘false flag’ wars being started in the past hundred years or so that the truth is now known about (Spanish American, Hitler’s invasion of Poland, and Viet Nam to name a few, but last year’s war between Israel & Lebanon looks mighty suspicious also). Look for an American city to get nuked, or some other major incident just before the elections, declaration of martial law, and the elections cancelled. A presidential directive has already been signed (May 9, 2007) giving the president complete control over every branch of government in the event of a man-made or natural emergency AND HE DECIDES WHETHER IT IS AN EMERGENCY OR NOT. Doesn’t this sound like something a dictator would come up with?***

#85228 by Hondo on 7/08 at 8:34 pm

Gee hondo, you are indeed a hateful and bitter soul, eh? You can’t possibly be actually located in the U.S., as a citizen of any length of time, and actually say these things, and expect anybody to take you seriously.

What you describe for America is what’s in the paperwork, and our “leaders” haven’t paid any attention to THAT in years.

So, you’re either in denial, or a plant.

#85227 by Ernest Canning on 7/08 at 8:30 pm

Actually Ernest, if Bush persuades NK to return from the nuclear brink, it’ll have been two nations (the other being Libya), not one.

Quoting Caldicott is somewhat akin to quoting Cindy Sheean (if Cindy were actually intelligent) - she may be passionate, but many of her facts or positions are agenda driven.  In Caldicott’s case, she has the added detriment of having been proven wrong on multiple occasions (see her ideas on the Space Shuttle effect on ozone layer and her reliance on discredited sources like Storm/Smith in her most recent book).

Even from just her quote about cold war nuclear spending vs. spending today, it’s easy to see flaws in her logic (at least as quoted): comparing 1975 dollars to 2007 dollars makes no sense.  And GDP has more than doubled since then, by which measure nuclear funding has actually decreased.  Remember too that she was a critic of nuclear weapons during the cold war - a conflict largely resolved by the arms race itself which spent the USSR into submission.  It’s also not clear from your citation which “project” she’s referring to - the missle defence system?  If so, that’s not a very good comparison.

Speaking of Star Wars - it’s not intended to prevent a suitcase bomb; that’s the job of border controls, etc… This in no way detracts from its intended use, which is the interception of ICBMs launched at the US or any of its allies - a use for which it appears it will be effective.

In any case, you have only 18 months of Bush left to endure and I expect we’ll be around and doing just fine then as well.

No Marshall, even if, at this late date, the Bush regime finally moves back from the brink of insanity by persuading one nation, North Korea, to abandon the development of nuclear weapons, it will not begin to salvage the disaster that has been the hallmark of the Bush/Cheney cabal. 

As noted by Dr. Helen Caldicott in “The New Nuclear Danger” (2004), “At the height of the cold war, the US spent an average of $3.8 billion a year on nuclear weapons design, testing and manufacture.  Now, more than twelve years after the end of the cold war, it is spending $5 billion annually over a ten to 15-year period on a project that will violate both the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty and the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty"--this despite the fact that “overkill” exceeds that which existed during the cold war.  Although 1,000 nuclear bombs striking 100 cities would be sufficient to end human existence on this planet, the “US currently has 2000 intercontinental land-based hydrogen bombs, 3456 muclear weapons on submarines..., and 1750 nuclear weapons on intercontinental planes...Of these 7206 weapons, roughly 2500 remain on hair-trigger alert.”

In June 2005 “The New York Times” reported that the Bush administration plans to produce Uranium 238 for the first time since the Cold War at a cost of $1.5 billion.  Uranium 238 is hundreds of times more radioactive than the Uranium used in nuclear weapons and is said to be so dangerous that inhaling even a speck can lead to lung cancer.

These weapons are but a part of an ongoing development of a technological terror--a “full spectrum dominance” in which complete and unchallenged power is to be exerted by the US over land, sea, air and space in order to assure global protection for the American corporate empire.  The crown jewel of full spectrum dominance is “Star Wars,” originally Reagan’s and now Bush’s proposed $1 trillion boondoggle which, while it will serve to enrich his base, will force Russia back into the arms race by treatening to create a US first strike capability and which is pretty useless against a terrorist with a suitcase-sized nuclear bomb or an attack on one of our nuclear power plants.

In 2002, the Bush regime, which boycotted the Nov. 2001 Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty Conference, while it was advancing the notion of anticipatory self-defense, not only abandoned disarmament and non-proliferation, but presented “counterproliferation” as the centerpiece of its policy, a strategy which envisions the use of “tailored effect” nuclear weapons against WMD sites.

Quite a legacy your pal Bush will leave, providing the world survives to the end of his presidency.

#84362 by BobZ on 7/05 at 7:03 pm

I think the posts here are giving short shrift to the acheivements of this administration which may, on balance, rescue Bush from the “one of the worst presidents ever” club.

Efforts to end NK’s nuclear pariah status, if they pay off as is looking quite possible, will go a long way.  As will the removal of the Taliban from Afghanistan, and the conversion of Libya from a potential nuclear threat to a docile wallflower.  The overall good economy (and economic outlook) are also strong positives that will be fondly remembered - especially if future policy changes throw a wrench in the machinery.  I agree that what happens in Iraq will most likely define this President’s memory, but that’s also not a finished story despite the dark chapters we’ve been in for a while.