Guys! Don’t worry! The world is pretty well disgusted with Russia too. Such is the destiny of all world powers.

signature: One thousand Americans stop smoking cigarettes every day - by dying.

#87278 by Skruff on 7/16 at 1:22 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: #87278 by Skruff on 7/16 at 1:22 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

***This isn’t a partisan issue, Skruff, but an American one. I doubt most Americans would reject a legislative effort to improve FISA as long as the Constitutional rights we have weren’t blatantly disregarded, AND it went through the legislative vetting process. What Americans object to is having no input in the matter; to having the ‘decider’ make our choices, and doing it in a secretive illegal manner, without allowing Congress’ right to oversight. ALL government employees, from top to bottom, are there to serve the people, and we expect them to obey laws on the books, just as we are expected to do the same.

The argument that FISA laws are too slow is a strawman and I stand by my previous statement, to wit: 

***The claim by BushCo that it (Edit: FISA) is too cumbersome and slow to respond to the timely needs of the intelligence community is a bald-faced lie designed as a rationale to criminally circumvent the law. How could this be the case when provisions in the law allow intelligence agencies to IMMEDIATELY initiate a wiretap, then get an approval later? How does this in any way impede a legitimate investigation?***

Since this article deals a lot with polls here are some numbers for you:

The poll was conducted by Zogby International, the highly-regarded non-partisan polling company. The poll interviewed 1,216 U.S. adults from January 9-12,2007.

The poll found that 52% agreed with the statement:

“If President Bush wiretapped American citizens without the approval of a judge, do you agree or disagree that Congress should consider holding him accountable through impeachment.”

And:

A CNN poll conducted by Opinion Research Corp. on May 16-17, 2006 found that 50 percent of the respondents believe the program was “wrong,” while 44 percent believe it was “right.”

And just what was Skruff trying to prove by posting a comment by Admiral Woolsey in defense of the so-called “Terrorist Surveillance” program?  Does the mere fact that Woolsey was the first DCI to serve under Clinton mean that we are supposed to accept this criminal violation of FISA as lawful when FISA by its express terms provides that it is the “exclusive” means by which such surveillance is to be conducted?

If, as Woolsey asserts, something more rapid than FISA retroactive approval is needed, the proper course would have been to go to Congress and ask that the statute be modified.  The proper course never involves unilateral executive lawlessness.

There is no showing that Woolsey, who no longer serves in the CIA, was privy to the actual workings of the program.  The 3/1/06 WaPo article cited by Skruff centers on the testimony of Alberto “I can’t recall a thing” Gonzales.  The AG described the program as a “Terrorist Surveillance Program.”  Since no one in Congress was permitted access to the actual program, we are supposed to simply accept this prevaricator’s description at face value?  Yeah, and if you do, you can go along with the other fairy tales, like Iraqi WMD, links to al Qaeda and 9/11 and the claim that politics did not influence the decision to fire nine U.S. attorneys.

Left off of Skruff’s, and Woolsey’s, inane comments is the fact that FISA provides for retroactive approval of warrantless searches in emergency situations where the AG determines that the factual basis exists but there is insufficient time to get advance approval.  The AG doesn’t have to go to the FISA courts for approval for up to 72 hours.  The exigent circumstance claim has a hollow ring to it, especially given the track record of the FISA courts where during the period 1995 to 2004, the FISA courts turned down only four out of 10,617 surveillance requests.

The most logical explanation as to why the administration would not go before the FISA courts entails the likelihood that this warrantless surveillance was not directed at “terror suspects” but instead was directed at political opponents.  That also explains why General Hayden refused to testify under oath whether the program was directed at political opponents.  The only reason for not going before the FISA courts even retroactively is that the administration knows full well that it was illegally spying on Americans.

For those interested in the extent to which we have devolved into a surveillance society, I would recommend “No Place to Hide” by Robert O’Harrow, Jr.

Finally, the purpose of the NSA massive data base is explained by the symbol Admiral John Poindexter—a pyramid, topped by an all seeing eye.  Beneath it was the inscription, Scienter Est Potentia—Latin for “Knowledge Is Power.”  This explains why the Bush administration wants to know everything about us, and wants us to know literally nothing about what it does.  In the final analysis, everything this administration does can be explained by its ultimate goal, power, pure, unrestricted and perhaps unending power!

Comment   #85276 by PaulMagillSmith on 7/09 at 3:58 am

•  Ok Hondo, since you called me out I’m going to respond. While I understand my time might be better utilized, since it appears you have been consuming mass quantities of Republican cool aid & haven’t been keeping abreast of events (or just delusional), it is the duty of all patriots to confront mis-information & ‘spin’ wherever encountered.

Paul, this is great. Took me a while to catch up with these comments, (since you made them a week ago). But, indeed we DO have this “patriotic duty” to confront disinformation, misinformation, and downright lies, whenever encountered.

To NOT do so, would make us complicit. It’s hard work, (and oftentimes, seemingly thankless) but….somebody’s gotta do it. Seems like it’s left up to those of us who have been disenfranchised, leaving us with enough time on our hands, (limited employment for whatever the mulitiple reasons) so we can just do this stuff instead, even though we aren’t getting paid.

So, THANK YOU….keep up the good work!!

I call this all civic duty.

Cyrena, Ernest, & Mike Mid-City,

I think Hondo is too brainwashed by the neo-CON spin to ever change. Maybe his livlihood depends on a check from them to spout his so called ‘facts’ LOL. He’s obviously too brain-dead to realize that when the Constitution gets shredded it impinges on the liberties of ALL Americans. The past quarter century, especially since 2000, have posed a greater threat to our Republic than Hitler, Mao, and King George III ever did.

You know, if polls supported the positions taken by the radical right I’m sure they would tout them highly through the MSM they control. Fortunately for us the gorilla in the room has shown himself to be a small monkey by his actions, and more & more Americans are taking the European attitude that the government should fear the people rather than the other way around.

During the Viet Nam fiasco it took us a number of years of protest to reach the ‘tipping point’ of overcoming the government propaganda aimed at inculcating the public with the belief we were fighting a justifiable war, legally initiated, and thoughtfully carried out. When, through polling BTW, the pendulum swung the other way, people realized Johnson started it by means of a ‘false flag’ operation, and the Constitutional threat of Nixons illegal wiretapping became evident, the majority of Americans (once again through polling BTW) realized winning the war while losing our Constitutionally granted liberties was not a good trade. Then, EVERYONE wanted to jump on the bandwagon to end the war. Only a few early on had the bravery & courage to take on the right-wing pro-war elements that led us into the slaughter. We were arrested, beaten, and ostracized continually & repeatedly, but prevailed because the higher standards of morality were on our side. The right was wrong and the left was right.

Following the criminal activities of the Republican Nixon administration FISA was created. Americans just don’t like being illegally spied upon by their government (or the wayward agencies in it). The claim by BushCo that it is too cumbersome and slow to respond to the timely needs of the intelligence community is a bald-faced lie designed as a rationale to criminally circumvent the law. How could this be the case when provisions in the law allow intelligence agencies to IMMEDIATELY initiate a wiretap, then get an approval later. How does this in any way impede a legitimate investigation? 

A number of posts back I proposed that instead of us ‘preaching to the choir’ on sites like this & others with a similar social opinion, our time would be better spent by going to sites on the right and posting our comments there. Hondo must have read that post and come here from right wing sites, but there is a major difference—-his ‘facts’ are wrong or twisted, and although he may come from the side of the right he is not on the right side.

Hondo, if you support people that continually lie to us like this administration your personal ‘values’ are corrupt, and you have no credibility. Using an acronym I believe I have seen Mike Mid-City use previously, sit down, have a steaming cup of STFU, and listen. You obviously haven’t done your homework, or you wouldn’t spout off with some of the erroneous information you have garnered & propound.

Although it is probably a futile effort I will take the time to ask you one more question. Is there anything major this administration has done that is criminal & warrants full public disclosure, investigation, and possible trial? (and we aren’t interested in any “Well Clinton did it, too” diatribe or comparisons)

It appears that our resident Limbaugh ditto-head, Hondo, is a dishonest propagandist.  Whenever confronted with “facts” and “evidence” that do not fit within the confines of his narrow, right-wing world view, he simply denounces them as “liberal lies.”  He makes up allegations from whole cloth.  There is no evidence that Clinton or Gore ever authorized warrantless domestic eavesdropping by the NSA or any other federal agency.  Targeted domestic eavesdropping by the FBI pursuant to a warrant is not illegal.  How does he think the FBI investigates the Mafia?

Hondo’s assertion that FISA was “amended” by a Clinton executive order only underscores the degree of his ignorance.  Hondo, laws can be only amended by act of Congress.  An executive order that is contrary to the law is a violation of the law.  While the Bush/Cheney regime has sought to overcome this by issuing more Presidential signing statements during the first four years of the Bush presidency than “all” former presidents in U.S. history combined during the more than 200 years history of this Republic, a bi-partisan study done by the American Bar Association forcefully argues that these signing statements are unlawful and amount to a violation of the president’s constitutional duty to see that the laws are faithfully executed.

FISA provides a comprehensive statutory scheme for conducting electronic surveillance for foreign intelligence and national security.  Under FISA a warrant is authorized if the government produces evidence the individual who is the target of the surveillance is an agent of a foreign power or group.  FISA permits very brief emergency exceptions in which the Attorney General can seek retroactive approval within 72 hours of the initiation of surveillance where there is insufficient time, or within 15 days of a formal declaration of war where “there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communications where a United States person is a party.”  FISA expressly states that it is the “exclusive means by which electronic surveillance…and the intereception of domestic wire, oral and electronic communications may be conducted.”  FISA makes the conduct of electronic surveillance outside the scope of the FISA statute a felony.

As observed in “Articles of Impeachment against George W. Bush” published by the Center for Constitutional Rights, Bush’s “NSA program is flatly criminal.”  Article 2 of the Nixon impeachment dealt with a charge that Nixon “repeatedly engaged in conduct violating constutional rights of citizens….”  The House charged Nixon with misusing the intelligence services by directing them to “conduct…electronic surveillance or other investigations for purposes unrelated to national secuirty, the enforcement of the laws, or any other lawful function of office.”

Cyrena’s critique of your blatantly dishonest effort to deny the existence of the NSA data collection effort with assistance of the telecommunications industry was spot on.  Hondo, you did not “refute” a single “fact” from my prior post.  You merely revealed the level of your ignorance and dishonesty.  Shame on you!

#87142 by Hondo on 7/15 at 6:48 pm
Hondo, is this REALLY what you call “fact and reason”?
I mean, read it again. This is your explanation for how we “know” that bush isn’t wiretapping or otherwise collecting data from domestic transmissions, (phone and internent…I added the internet part).

•  We do know that the Bush administration isn’t spying on exclusively-domestic conversations. We know that because Bush (stupidly, in my opinion) left a whole bunch of Clinton appointees in their positions within the NSA, the CIA, and the FBI. These leftovers have done nothing but undermine our president over and over again. If Bush was breaking the law, one of the leftovers would be singing an opera for The New York Times.

So, this is how we know….huh? Because Clinton left behind some career professionals in all of these bureaus/agencies, (and one does not become a career professional in ANY of these fields, in 1 or 2 political cycles) and so…in your logic, we know that this isn’t going on, because these “bad guys” left over from that bad guy Clinton administration, would be spilling the beans, or as you put it, singing an opera for The New York Times. That’s all very theatrical in a thuggish sort of way, but that’s more in keeping with Dick Bush politics than the New York Times. The New York Times has published thousands of occasions of bush breaking the law. I’ve published multiple occasions of it myself. So have hundreds of thousands of others. You can’t pick up a newspaper in the 21st Century, without at least a few dozen of them, (on any given day) without seeing the bush crimes spelled out. So, I’m really certain that the NYT or any other newspaper, is NOT dependent on these left-over “bad guys” for information. HELL, bush finally got around to telling everybody himself. And, nobody that knows the bush mentality, would have believed him for a second.

•  By the way, we do know, for a fact, that Bill Clinton and Al Gore DID authorize wiretapping on exclusively domestic calls. I mentioned that previously. Why didn’t you respond to that? Cat got your tongue?

You obviously weren’t posting this to me, but since I DON’T know that Clinton and Gore did this, (I really can’t see Al Gore caring the least about wiretapping, or Clinton either for that matter..definitely not AL) So anyway, what “evidence” did you provide, to prove that Clinton/Gore indulged in this activity?

•  You mentioned the FISA law. Pres. Bush did not violate that law. Didn’t you know that Slick Willie amended the FISA law by executive order in 1995? Bush is covered by the executive order.

Here again, you’re a moron Hondo. Executive orders don’t “amend” laws like FISA. (you must have executive orders mixed up with all of these secret signing statements that cheney’s attorneys work up for george to sign to attach to every law that he has no intention of recognizing). The e/o that Clinton created only STRENGTHENED the law. So, if you’re not ignorant as Ernest says, then maybe you’re just very confused.

•  You mentioned the phone companies that supposedly helped “collect data” for Pres. Bush. That particular myth was debunked within one week of the story first hitting the paper. It just wasn’t true…..That whole story was a liberal lie that the drive-by media held up as truth.

Well Hondo, I think you might be wrong here again. BECAUSE….those very companies that Ernest mentioned, (and a few others) all have multiple class actions suit against them and the NSA, for giving over data that violated the privacy of millions of customers. Here’s a link to a few of them. These lawsuits have all gone forward, and because they are class action suits, your favorite telecommunications giants might start to sweat things out a bit. Do ya think mr cheney might cover their losses out of his own pocket?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/16/NSA.suit/index.html

RE: #86977 by Mike Mid-City on 7/14 at 8:57 pm

All points truth, Mike.

RE: #86970 by Ernest Canning on 7/14 at 8:49 pm

My comments by paragraph:

1) Criminality, which is also hypocritical according to “values”.

2) Obfuscation by slight of hand with un-necessary data.

3) Refusal to answer inquiry of criminal activity

4) Violated FISA , designed for just such an attempt…felonious.

5) All call database with surveillance ability

6) The unitary executive loses to the “will”.

What more can one say? There’s ample evidence.

Hondo:  1)  Neither you nor anyone else outside the administration knows the true scope of Bush’s presidential authorization for the NSA to conduct warrantless domestic electronic eavesdropping because the administration has refused to reveal the scope of the order. 

2)  There is no reason to believe the program was limited to calls between suspected overseas terrorists and U.S. residents.  For starters, the choice of the NSA rather than the FBI involves application of technology capable of instantaneously trapping the entire stream of domestic/overseas communications.  Early news accounts in both the NY Times and Wash. Post revealed the NSA program innundated the FBI with useless data involving thousands of innocent Americans.  Although the NY times reported that “virtually all…current and former officials” said that the program “led to dead ends or innocent Americans,” the administration and corporate media pundits continue to tout it as an essential tool in the so-called “war on terror.”

3)  When pressed, Gen. Michael Hayden—who headed the NSA from 1999-2005, refused to say explicitly that the Bush administration is not spying on political opponents.  If it was, this would amount to the Watergate break-in on a grand scale.

4)  Bush’s order amounts to a federal crime as it violates FISA, which by its express terms, makes such a violation a felony.  It also violates the Fourth Amendment.  One of the articles of impeachment brought against Richard Nixon entailed a similar effort at domestic spying.

5) On 5/11/06 USA Today revealed the NSA, aided by AT & T, Verizon & Bell Southj, secretly collected the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans.  One source asserted the agency created “the largest data base ever assembled in the world,” adding the goal was “to create a database of every [domestic] call ever made.”  While the telecommunications companies were not handing over “names, addresses and other personal information,” such information can be readily obtained by cross-checking the phone numbers against other data bases.  Like the unlawful NSA surveillance, the administration claimed this was an anti-terrorist program.  If that were true, it would mean that every American capable of making a phone call is a suspected terrorist.

I don’t want to seem blunt or rude, but, frankly Hondo, ignorance like yours is not bliss.  In this day and age where a lawless “Unitary Executive” stands as a threat to the very survival of our Constitutional democracy and the rule of law, your ignorance is downright dangerous.

Having Bush and his friends representing our interests is like having a clueless, corrupt uncle representing your family. Since what others see are the fruits of the clueless, corrupt uncle, they believe that the rest of us are as clueless, incompetent, ruthless, Machiavellian and reckless as Shrub and company.

Hondo,
Your replies regarding my (& others’) rebuttals to your original post are inadequate, incorrect, and what I would expect from a completely branwashed stooge of the Republicans. Frankly any further attempt to relay real truths about the mess our government, and particularly the anti-social Republicans (but not entirely I admit), have gotten us into in the past quarter century seems an exercise in futility with someone with as closed a mind as you exhibit. Is Bush’s fault of being hardheaded in the face of provable facts contagious or something?

I will, since you did mention this one issue, send a little more information your way.

“And a 2000 report by the World Health Organization, the most recent available from the U.N. organization, put the United States 37th out of 190 nations in health care services — between Costa Rica and Slovenia. France was rated No. 1, the United Kingdom in the 18th spot, Canada at No. 30 and Cuba a couple of notches behind the United States in the 39th spot.”

I’m sure, by having the number of Americans without any health coverage swell to a record 46 million under Bush’s watch, our position on the WHO scale has gone down rather than up. But I guess everything , no matter how well documented is just “America’s liberaliars and Cultural Marxists” speaking if it was found anywhere other than Fox (faux) News (noise). What planet are you from, Hondo? Rome is burning. Is that a match I see you hiding behind your back? Or a fiddle? Or both?

I just noticed on another of your ignorant rants you have no spelling or word choice ability. Here’s a correction you should pay very close attention to, “...the conservative majority…”. Either you are delusional or you don’t realize the word MINORITY isn’t spelled with a ‘J’.

We aren’t hearing the neo-cons shouting out, “America, love it or leave it!” anymore, because it’s a whisper compared to the roar of OUR majority now clamoring, “America, love it AND fix it!!!”

***Thankyou Skruff for the link making my point with Hondo about medical care in the US as compared to other nations.***
http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/parenting/05/08/mothers.index/index.html

Hondo said:

“4. Health Care—Contrary to the liberal lies being spun by America’s Cultural Marxists and Liberaliars, the United States has the finest health care system in the world.”

***To which I replied”

***...The only thing that I can tell you is America has the MOST EXPENSIVE health care in the world, but it is NOT the best. In numerous categories America vies with third world countries and in some of them America is near the bottom for industrialized countries…***

***And the facts revealed:

U.S. has second worst newborn death rate in modern world, report says
By Jeff Green
CNN

“American babies are three times more likely to die in their first month as children born in Japan, and newborn mortality is 2.5 times higher in the United States than in Finland, Iceland or Norway, Save the Children researchers found.

Only Latvia, with six deaths per 1,000 live births, has a higher death rate for newborns than the United States, which is tied near the bottom of industrialized nations with Hungary, Malta, Poland and Slovakia with five deaths per 1,000 births.
“The United States has more neonatologists and neonatal intensive care beds per person than Australia, Canada and the United Kingdom, but its newborn rate is higher than any of those countries,” said the annual State of the World’s Mothers report.”

***Of particular interest to me are these findings:

“The report said that family planning and increased contraception use leads to lower maternal and infant death rates.”

and,

“Tinker said some nations ranked high in part because they offer free health services for pregnant women and babies, while the United States suffers from disparities in access to health care.”

***Since Bush adamantly opposes anything but abstinence only for birth control, and through his privatization of medical services policy, with insufficient attention to medical services for more than just wealthy Americans, does this mean he is not only killing people in other countries, but in this country as well? This is certainly a poor legacy for someone who hypocritically claims to be pro-life (read anti-choice here).***

“3. Civil Liberties/Due Process—Here in America, agents of the government are limited in the ways they can interfere in your daily living of life. You can’t be denied life, liberty or property without due process of law.”

Hondo must have been talking about corporate liberties.

(Sorry folks, this post should actually follow the one below this one. It’s a four part post and this is actually the second part)

“1. Religious Freedom—People from every corner of the globe, representing every religion that there is, flock to the United States because they are allowed to practice their religious faith in peace. There haven’t been very many countries in the history of the world that allow that.”

***While people may still feel free to worship as they please in this country there is a concerted effort, especially by right wing Christian Fundamentalists, to eventually control every aspect of our society. Good examples are dubious ‘Faith Based Initiatives’, which lack oversight as to where funding is really going, what it is being used for, and how much it violates the separation of church & state as proposed wisely by the founding fathers. Another example of the encroachment of religious tones on public policy is on the issue of Pro-Choice or Anti-Choice, which should be strictly a matter of public health policy, rather than religious ideology; it’s part of the, “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” guarantee. Last, but hardly least, is the enormous impact AIPAC, primarily a foreign religion oriented organization, has on our government officials.*** 

“2. Economic Freedom—The U.S. is one of the most economically free countries in the world. We have a free market that allows anyone to “pursue happiness”—what the Founders understood to mean “property rights” and what Pres. Bush calls the “ownership society.” If you work hard and persevere, you can own a piece of the American Dream.”

***When 1% of the populace controls 90% of the pie it is a situation common in third world countries of ‘haves & have-nots’. The majority of this country work for their living, and they are sliding farther & farther behind, while the ones raking it in make their income without working from dividend & interest income. Actually, in many European countries citizens have a greater chance at upward mobility now than Americans. For the lower income people in this country the so-called “American Dream” is now a nightmare impossible to awaken from or escape. Americans are now working harder & longer and their real wages continue on a downward trend. Prosperity? Yeah, if you’re on the top rung of the ladder, but that doesn’t mean you have to kick the people below you off of it.***

“3. Civil Liberties/Due Process—Here in America, agents of the government are limited in the ways they can interfere in your daily living of life. You can’t be denied life, liberty or property without due process of law.”

***Surely you jest! Suspension of habeas corpus, illegal wiretaps, no-knock laws, eminent domain claims to build shopping malls, Scooter Libby having his sentence commuted while non-treasonous non-violent pot offenders languish in prison with much longer sentences, broken international treaties, the AG misleading Congress, and saying torture is ok, signing statements, Valerie Plame outed & her career destroyed. The list of violations is too lengthy for the word maximum TD allows. BushCo thinks they are not only above the law, but they are the law, anyway they choose to writeit.***

(Due to length this post is in four parts)

Ok Hondo, since you called me out I’m going to respond. While I understand my time might be better utilized, since it appears you have been consuming mass quantities of Republican cool aid & haven’t been keeping abreast of events (or just delusional), it is the duty of all patriots to confront mis-information & ‘spin’ wherever encountered. What you assert, as factual information might have been true in the America we once knew, but since BushCo, or even farther back to Nixon & Reagan, got their greedy clutches on our once world-respected country, they have truly made a mess of things. (BTW, I am NOT a Dem, so don’t even go there. My issues are not partisan; rather they are what you might call fundamentalist patriotic, progressive, and adherent to the Constitution.)

Let’s take a look first at your so-called ‘Five points’, and you will see my comments denoted by ***

Here’s what you said:

#85228 by Hondo on 7/08 at 8:34 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“Maria Cocco-Puffs is stupidly wrong when she says that there isn’t anything to admire about the United States. Following are the Top 5 Things To Admire About the United States:”

***We start off in agreement that she is wrong to say there isn’t ANYTHING admirable about the United States. Of course there is, but this is attributable to the decency of the average citizen, and NOT to the actions of our government, especially as of late.***

(continued)

“4. Health Care—Contrary to the liberal lies being spun by America’s Cultural Marxists and Liberaliars, the United States has the finest health care system in the world. That’s why people flock here from every country of the world to have their health issues cared for.”

***I don’t know where you get your information, but you truly need to investigate more than the sources you are using. The only thing that I can tell you is America has the MOST EXPENSIVE health care in the world, but it is NOT the best. In numerous categories America vies with third world countries and in some of them America is near the bottom for industrialized countries. Then there is the 31% eaten up by administrative costs, primarily due to insurance company procedures (Medicare admin costs are less than 2% by the way, proving privatization is NOT cost effective). Then there are the 47 million Americans who don’t know if American medical care is good or not, because they only go for treatment in dire emergencies often too late to do any good, BECAUSE THEY DON’T HAVE PRIVATE INSURANCE.***

“5. American Charity and Hospitality—There has never, in the history of the world, been a country that has amassed as much power and wealth as the U.S., and used that power and wealth for as much good, as the U.S. We saved the world from the evil forces of totalitarianism in two different world wars, and we sacrificed more than 500,000 lives to do it. Public, private and corporate international aid to the rest of the world amounts to about $35 billion annually. No other country in the world gives as much as we do.”

***As a percentage of GDP we donate far less to alleviate world suffering than numerous smaller countries do…and we attach all kinds of strings to our gifts (like the right to install a military base in the particular country). It could be compared to the deathrow inmate they won’t hang until he gets over the cold he has. Sure, we’ll come cure you, but then we reserve the right to bomb the hell out of you. Unfortunately, many recipients are is such dire desperate situations they have no choice other than accept the aid.
Oh yes we did help end totalitarian threats, but now we are well on the way to becoming that same thing we despised and fought against AND your hero Bush’s grandfather (Prescott) aided the Nazis as his friends, The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree there, does it?***

“I have a suggestion for Marie Cocco-Puffs. If she thinks that America is such a rotton place, maybe she should leave. I’m sure that her “journalistic style” would be well received in places like Cuba, Venezuela, or Iran.”

***My family has been in this country 373 years now, and I’m damned sure not leaving MY country. Since you are now in an ever-shrinking minority why the hell don’t YOU leave? The ever-growing majorities in this country now agree with me and we are staying here to fight against the mess this, and other, Republican/Democrat administrations have gotten us into. Your tired old cliche of “America, love it or leave it” has become “America, don’t leave it just fix it.” ***

Or not.

“P.S. to PaulMagillSmith: During the Clinton Administration, when the world “loved” America, there were 14 major terrorist attacks against American targets. There’s been one attack (9/11) since Pres. Bush took over. That kind of makes your closing words in Comment #84620 look kind of silly, doesn’t it?”

***Ok, so here’s the comment, but before I go to it I would like to point out from 1993 to 2001 we had no foreign terrorist attacks in America. That’s 8 years my friend, longer even than BushCo have been in control AND Clinton didn’t spend the untold billions on ‘Homeland Security’ BushCo has soaked us for.

The comment in question:

        ———————————-

Be an ignorant hardhead like Bush, if it pleases you, and ignore how the rest of the world polls in relation to their unhappiness with American policy as proposed by this administration, but when (note I didn’t say if) there is another attack on our shores it will be people like you & Bush/Cheney who are responsible, because YOU JUST WOULDN’T LISTEN.

        ———————————-
Well her it comes and I know you won’t like it, but there is ample & daily increasing evidence BushCo either caused 9/11 or allowed it to happen. Either way, they used it as a tool to fearmonger the public so they could gain control of America as outlined in the PNAC ‘bible’. There are numerous examples of ‘false flag’ wars being started in the past hundred years or so that the truth is now known about (Spanish American, Hitler’s invasion of Poland, and Viet Nam to name a few, but last year’s war between Israel & Lebanon looks mighty suspicious also). Look for an American city to get nuked, or some other major incident just before the elections, declaration of martial law, and the elections cancelled. A presidential directive has already been signed (May 9, 2007) giving the president complete control over every branch of government in the event of a man-made or natural emergency AND HE DECIDES WHETHER IT IS AN EMERGENCY OR NOT. Doesn’t this sound like something a dictator would come up with?***

#85228 by Hondo on 7/08 at 8:34 pm

Gee hondo, you are indeed a hateful and bitter soul, eh? You can’t possibly be actually located in the U.S., as a citizen of any length of time, and actually say these things, and expect anybody to take you seriously.

What you describe for America is what’s in the paperwork, and our “leaders” haven’t paid any attention to THAT in years.

So, you’re either in denial, or a plant.

#85227 by Ernest Canning on 7/08 at 8:30 pm

Actually Ernest, if Bush persuades NK to return from the nuclear brink, it’ll have been two nations (the other being Libya), not one.

Quoting Caldicott is somewhat akin to quoting Cindy Sheean (if Cindy were actually intelligent) - she may be passionate, but many of her facts or positions are agenda driven.  In Caldicott’s case, she has the added detriment of having been proven wrong on multiple occasions (see her ideas on the Space Shuttle effect on ozone layer and her reliance on discredited sources like Storm/Smith in her most recent book).

Even from just her quote about cold war nuclear spending vs. spending today, it’s easy to see flaws in her logic (at least as quoted): comparing 1975 dollars to 2007 dollars makes no sense.  And GDP has more than doubled since then, by which measure nuclear funding has actually decreased.  Remember too that she was a critic of nuclear weapons during the cold war - a conflict largely resolved by the arms race itself which spent the USSR into submission.  It’s also not clear from your citation which “project” she’s referring to - the missle defence system?  If so, that’s not a very good comparison.

Speaking of Star Wars - it’s not intended to prevent a suitcase bomb; that’s the job of border controls, etc… This in no way detracts from its intended use, which is the interception of ICBMs launched at the US or any of its allies - a use for which it appears it will be effective.

In any case, you have only 18 months of Bush left to endure and I expect we’ll be around and doing just fine then as well.

No Marshall, even if, at this late date, the Bush regime finally moves back from the brink of insanity by persuading one nation, North Korea, to abandon the development of nuclear weapons, it will not begin to salvage the disaster that has been the hallmark of the Bush/Cheney cabal. 

As noted by Dr. Helen Caldicott in “The New Nuclear Danger” (2004), “At the height of the cold war, the US spent an average of $3.8 billion a year on nuclear weapons design, testing and manufacture.  Now, more than twelve years after the end of the cold war, it is spending $5 billion annually over a ten to 15-year period on a project that will violate both the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty and the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty”—this despite the fact that “overkill” exceeds that which existed during the cold war.  Although 1,000 nuclear bombs striking 100 cities would be sufficient to end human existence on this planet, the “US currently has 2000 intercontinental land-based hydrogen bombs, 3456 muclear weapons on submarines…, and 1750 nuclear weapons on intercontinental planes…Of these 7206 weapons, roughly 2500 remain on hair-trigger alert.”

In June 2005 “The New York Times” reported that the Bush administration plans to produce Uranium 238 for the first time since the Cold War at a cost of $1.5 billion.  Uranium 238 is hundreds of times more radioactive than the Uranium used in nuclear weapons and is said to be so dangerous that inhaling even a speck can lead to lung cancer.

These weapons are but a part of an ongoing development of a technological terror—a “full spectrum dominance” in which complete and unchallenged power is to be exerted by the US over land, sea, air and space in order to assure global protection for the American corporate empire.  The crown jewel of full spectrum dominance is “Star Wars,” originally Reagan’s and now Bush’s proposed $1 trillion boondoggle which, while it will serve to enrich his base, will force Russia back into the arms race by treatening to create a US first strike capability and which is pretty useless against a terrorist with a suitcase-sized nuclear bomb or an attack on one of our nuclear power plants.

In 2002, the Bush regime, which boycotted the Nov. 2001 Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty Conference, while it was advancing the notion of anticipatory self-defense, not only abandoned disarmament and non-proliferation, but presented “counterproliferation” as the centerpiece of its policy, a strategy which envisions the use of “tailored effect” nuclear weapons against WMD sites.

Quite a legacy your pal Bush will leave, providing the world survives to the end of his presidency.

#84362 by BobZ on 7/05 at 7:03 pm

I think the posts here are giving short shrift to the acheivements of this administration which may, on balance, rescue Bush from the “one of the worst presidents ever” club.

Efforts to end NK’s nuclear pariah status, if they pay off as is looking quite possible, will go a long way.  As will the removal of the Taliban from Afghanistan, and the conversion of Libya from a potential nuclear threat to a docile wallflower.  The overall good economy (and economic outlook) are also strong positives that will be fondly remembered - especially if future policy changes throw a wrench in the machinery.  I agree that what happens in Iraq will most likely define this President’s memory, but that’s also not a finished story despite the dark chapters we’ve been in for a while.

Dantinak,
I think you are a bit confused about the difference between popularity and approval polls. While the former is based on recognition of an entity, the latter deals with the actions of the entity. As such I can well see how much of the world is unhappy with the actions (policies) of the entity known as America.

Like him or not Bush is the current figurehead for America. Whatever he does reflects on all Americans in the eyes of the world. I think it was Will Rogers who said, “I never met a man I didn’t like”. Adhering to that same decent outlook I have consistantly said and written that it is not so much the man (Bush/Cheney) I dislike, but his policies I disagree with. Although I’ve never met him personally there is substantial information about him in the public domain that would lead me to believe we could never be friends. This is not the same as me saying “I hate Bush/Cheney”. I do, however, hate this administration’s anti-social policies, and hate the stain these deviants have placed on our nation in the eyes of the rest of the world.

Be an ignorant hardhead like Bush, if it pleases you, and ignore how the rest of the world pollS in relation to their unhappiness with American policy as proposed by this administration, but when (note I didn’t say if) there is another attack on our shores it will be people like you & Bush/Cheney who are responsible, because YOU JUST WOULDN’T LISTEN.

#84269 by Skruff on 7/05 at 12:26 pm
(Unregistered commenter)
***
....and we’re in for more of the same if people don’t begin to realize that one president and vice president did not change us from the “Little House on the Prairie” to the Amityville Horror. This has been a long process. ..........***

yes, since 1898 in fact.

“Hating Bush” is probably overstated. You either have to know someone personally or like Hitler have done something so outrageous that it is almost impossible not to hate him. Bush falls in the middle. But because most Americans hold our president on a pedestal, it is disheartening, when they are caught in lies and mistruths. Americans also don’t like incompetence. We pride ourselves on being leaders and being able to get things done. Bush has been a miserable failure both as a moral leader and as a competent administrator. You don’t have to hate the guy to realize he has been a massive failure as president. He would have been fired long ago if he was president of a Fortune 500 company. His communications skills are abysmal - he can barely get two complete sentences out that are understandable.  He chose a reckless path in going to war with a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, and has shown no regard for the Constitution of the United States. He will go down as one of the worst presidents ever. Do any of us feel good about this? No- many of us are ashamed that we were taken in by him and actually voted for him. Worse yet we mourn for the 3,500+ dead military and thousand of maimed military who were asked to serve their country in a needless war. All of us want to be proud of our country and our leader. It is hard to do with President Bush.

#84206 by PaulMagillSmith on 7/05 at 8:41 am
(72 comments total)

RE: #84194 by dantinak on 7/05 at 7:44 am
(10 comments total)

re #84132 by PaulMagillSmith on 7/04 at 11:28 pm

“Having worked in the military I can tell you an approval poll is entirely different from what you were talking about with Washington.  Washington wasn’t polling his junior officers to see how much they liked him or if they thought he was doing a good job.  He would talk to them to gather information on how battle ready the troops were, etc…”

Actually you are quite wrong, dantinak. Washington did poll his junior officers about strategy & tactics regarding the taking of Boston. Unlike Bush, who has proven himself hard headed, arrogant, stubborn, delusional, and insensitive to the opinions of his military men in the field, Washington PAID ATTENTION. The result was he dropped his plan for a full frontal assault, which would have resulted in a great loss of life, instead opting for putting his cannons in a position overlooking the city, which made the British position untenable, so they withdrew from the city, with very little loss of life. But of course, as a former military man you already knew this, right?

You are very correct.  I did know this and if you would read my post instead of ignoring it you would find that I stated this.

” Washington wasn’t polling his junior officers to see how much they liked him or if they thought he was doing a good job.  He would talk to them to gather information on how battle ready the troops were, etc…”

So the point you are trying to make is nonexistent.  You do agree with me that Washington wasn’t polling his officers for how much they liked him, but as I had said to gather intelligence on tactics, his troops well being, etc. 

So I ask you please stay on topic.  We are talking about APPROVAL polls.  And in this case an approval poll of our country made by unknown folks in other countries.  You cannot base your decisions on these types of polls.  They are not exact and are easily manipulated.

The article we are talking about states that American approval is still high in Africa.  Why don’t you beat your chest about that?  Oh I see you don’t think the African approval rating matters.  That is why you ignore it.  Are you starting to see how these popularity polls can be easily manipulated?  Doesn’t the opinions of the folks in Africa matter to you?  Or do you think they are to uneducated to get it and the only folks that matter are the ones in Europe, Asia, Middle East etc?  Why don’t you talk about how great it is that the Africans like us? 

I will tell you what I think.  I think you are one of these people that hate Bush so much you can’t see the rest of the forest for the trees.  And because of that you will twist and turn anything you can get ahold of to slam America, while Bush is in charge of it. Instead of hiding behind these approval polls why don’t you just admit that you hate Bush and therefore hate America while he is in power.  That I can understand.  Don’t hide behind some approval poll, come on out and say it.

Now I still think approval polls are worthless.  I can’t wait to see how you bend your response.

#84206 by PaulMagillSmith on 7/05 at 8:41 am

Once again you bend the story to fit your silly argument.  Going to the world for an Approval poll is completely different than going to subordinates and getting their opinion.  It is because of the folks like you, who will bend everything to fit your I HATE AMERICA argument, that I find APPROVAL POLLS silly and for no reason. 

So please Paulmagillsmith stay on topic.  My argument is APPROVAL POLLS mean nothing.  They are a waste of time. 

Since you have not contested this in a logical way and you continue to bend other issues to try to fit this, I can only surmise that you have no argument to support your point.

People just don’t believe the Bush-Cheney administration anymore. Their deceptions and propaganda are now obvious.

Americans and people internationally have learned about the manipulations of the media and other activities of the Bush-Cheney bunch.

Repairing America’s credibility and honor will be a huge task. More on this in the article:

“U.S. public relations on Iraq, Iran need truth and honesty”

PopulistAmerica.com  
Populist Party of America

http://www.populistamerica.com/us_public_relations_on_iraq_iran_need_truth_and_honesty

Betty: Right on. The ACLU along with the N.Y. Times, “the media”, “Hollywood”, “Liberals”, are the favorite whipping boys of the extreme right. They never take on major corporations who wield the real power in this country. They get a pass. Now that July 4th is behind us, we will only have one more July 4 under Bush. Two years from now we will really be able to celebrate our independence.

RE: #83466 by lilmamzer on 7/03 at 8:01 am
(354 comments total)

“Please give us details about the “manipulating deceit”.”

Google ‘false flag wars’ or better yet ‘Mossad’ and you will find more than ample evidence in articles. Also try Googling ‘Mossad and 911’.

You might also find of interest the fact that while there are (were) normally 1,000+ Israelis in the WTC towers on a normal day, not one (zilch, nada) was killed in the WTC towers on 9/11. Coincidence? Not very likely.

In fact you will also even find a derivitive of the word deceit in the Mossad/Zionist motto, “By use of deception we will wage war”

Keep in mind I am not speaking of Jewish people, or even Israelis per se, just the rogue elements within the culture, much the same as I would speak of the CIA or others engaged in nefarious ‘black ops’ methodology.

Some of you may see this as a problem, I see it as an opportunity! This is the point in the program where we can revisit ourselves and our way of life. That means from the tip of democracy to the end of capitalism. Is being a profit motivated society the best we can be, does greed bring out the best in the human condition? Should we become a more caring and understanding country. Is war or dialogue the preferable path to world peace? The Dali Lama says “we must use 21st century solution for 21st century problems” not just what worked in the past. War begets war, violence encourages violence. As the world becomes more sophisticated and third world counties become industrialized the bar is raising higher and higher everyday. We must adjust to global changes in business, philosophy and the new global economy. We can no longer be the global bullies that we once were and we need to learn to respect and celebrate our differences.

RE: #84194 by dantinak on 7/05 at 7:44 am
(10 comments total)

re #84132 by PaulMagillSmith on 7/04 at 11:28 pm

“Having worked in the military I can tell you an approval poll is entirely different from what you were talking about with Washington.  Washington wasn’t polling his junior officers to see how much they liked him or if they thought he was doing a good job.  He would talk to them to gather information on how battle ready the troops were, etc…”

Actually you are quite wrong, dantinak. Washington did poll his junior officers about strategy & tactics regarding the taking of Boston. Unlike Bush, who has proven himself hard headed, arrogant, stubborn, delusional, and insensitive to the opinions of his military men in the field, Washington PAID ATTENTION. The result was he dropped his plan for a full frontal assault, which would have resulted in a great loss of life, instead opting for putting his cannons in a position overlooking the city, which made the British position untenable, so they withdrew from the city, with very little loss of life. But of course, as a former military man you already knew this, right?

RE: #84144 by cyrena on 7/05 at 1:13 am
(240 comments total)

#84132 by PaulMagillSmith on 7/04 at 11:28 pm

“Paul, thanks so much for this great post on the usefullness of polls.”

cyrena—Having read scores of your posts, and engaged in a number of dialogues, why am I suprised at your sense of reason, logical thought, informed attitude, and agreement with me on the value of seeking information through any means possible on matters of great importance (including, but not limited to, polls)? Actually, I’m not surprised at all.

re #84132 by PaulMagillSmith on 7/04 at 11:28 pm

Having worked in the military I can tell you an approval poll is entirely different from what you were talking about with Washington.  Washington wasn’t polling his junior officers to see how much they liked him or if they thought he was doing a good job.  He would talk to them to gather information on how battle ready the troops were, etc.  This is entirely different from a supposed poll of the world about whether they approve of us.  What you are doing is exactly why I don’t like polls.  You are bending the information to fit with your own argument. 

Approval polls are nothing more than popularity contests.  There are much better ways to develop policy.  I think on this we can both agree?

#84132 by PaulMagillSmith on 7/04 at 11:28 pm

Paul, thanks so much for this great post on the usefullness of polls. They give us some very important information, that we would not otherwise have, and without them, it leaves us ignorant to how our co-citizens and global neighbors actually feel about things.

So, as you said, while they do contain a margine of error, the more of this data that we have, the better results we can achieve.

Those who would tend to ignore this sort of tool, are simply in denial. They say these polls don’t matter, the same way that georgie says they don’t matter, and WE KNOW cheney doesn’t care about them. None of it matters.

Well, we see what that did for them, (and the rest of their “party”) Maybe it wasn’t such a good idea for them to ignore these polls.

Payback can be a bitch.

RE: #84116 by dantinak on 7/04 at 9:57 pm
(9 comments total)

Even George Washington polled his junior officers for their opinions and took their advice often on military strategies & tactics. He was a winner because he cared to discover as much information as he could glean from ANY source. Bush, on the other hand, has proven himself a hard-headed arrogant foolish man, who shuns advice from polls, doesn’t care what his constituants think, and the disasterous results are very evident now. Which end of these extremes would you prefer to be associated with?

...and it is on topic to make statements regarding polls and Bush, since if he had listened even a little bit we wouldn’t be in the dire situations we are now. Polls might have a margin of error, but they are good indicators of trends, and they DO matter as a tool to make proper analytical decisions. The most effective method is an average of several similar polls, something not very difficult to find on matters of great importance.

#84125 by cyrena on 7/04 at 10:32 pm

hello cyrena,

if i have learned anything from the past fifty yrs, its this—take anything coming out from the msm with a huge grain of salt, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT CONCERN CHINA.

here’s just one example,
i am sure all of you “know” that china attacked peaceful india in 1962 and grabbed a large tract of land?
this, along side the tibet “genocide” myth, must surely count as one of the greatest hoax of the century, but you still see yanks and indian writers perpetuating this hoax today.

#84120 by denk on 7/04 at 10:09 pm

Denk, you’ve cheered us all, by proving that we ARE in fact paying attention to, and not falling for the msm brainwashing. Good work.

in 2003, world wide survey such as this one by time mag, usa consistently top the chart as the world’s most dangerous nation, beating “rogue” countries like iraq, nk hands down.
iran and china werent even in sight.

then came the iran “crisis”. right after the msm blitz about the dangerous mullahs, the “denial of holocaust”, and call to “wipe out israel” etc etc., iran catapulted to the top of the chart along side usa and israel as one of the most dangerous countries on earth, according to numerous surveys.

and now, out of the blue, china climbed to the no2 spot just below usa, as the second most menacing country in the world. could this be due to the recent barrage of “exposures” such as tainted food published by the nyt?

wile uncle sham the top menace needs no introduction, iran and china’s shot to fame [notoriety?] is truly amazing. did they attack any country recently by any chance?
such is the awesome power of the msm.

re:#84022 by PaulMagillSmith on 7/04 at 2:39 pm

The reason you don’t know what the approval numbers were in the past is because it doesn’t matter.  It is not up to me to tell you the numbers, the point I was clearly making was no one cares next week about the poll numbers this week. 

I sure hope you are not in a position of authority where you work, with logic such as yours you would only make decisions based upon being popular. 

Finally it really does not matter if I like Bush or not.  Stay on topic.  Polls mean nothing.

Skruff is right about the ACLU.  They are not a humanitarian organization, and they take care to select those cases that create the sort of publicity that brings in donations.  That is their primary focus.

And dare we even admit it (yet), many other peoples have evolved beyond the “survival of the fittest” social structure that we have here in the US. How many other modern nations have de-funded programs for the poor to transfer those public dollars into tax aid for the richest 1%?  How many nations have a sturdy (and very costly) safety net with abundant options for the wealthy instead of the disadvantaged?  How many nations would even want a system of health care, education, justice, etc., that is determined exclusively by the individual’s economic status? And how many modern nations have the levels of violence, imprisonment, homelessness, infant mortality, and declining life expectancy for the poor, that we have here in the US? 

Modern governments realize that it is to the collective advantage of the nation to aid the poor, to provide equal education for all, to have a comprehensive health care system, and to maintain an inclusive society.

People around the world do know that wealth here is
concentrated in the hands of a few, that living conditions for the majority continue to deteriorate, and that our treatment of the poor is a not only moral disgrace but is in direct violation of international human rights agreements. This is a very country where stereotyping and scapegoating has become the norm. To sum it is, America is neither admirable nor envied, and it is understandable that there would be people around the world who DON’T want their government/society to become like ours.

RE: #83934 by Point Blank on 7/04 at 9:39 am
(103 comments total)

Point Blank,
While I agree with Ernest regarding your post, and I truly appreciate your numerous references to “we” the people, I detect a tone of negative bias in your post when referring to the ACLU. It seems I have seen similar statements in your previous posts.

I can easily understand why you have an ax to grind regarding that organization. I, also at times, have been a bit upset with them for some of the positions they have taken, and even some of the sick individuals they have chosen to defend (David Duke comes readily to mind). When I use cold hard reasoning, rather than emotion, I understand the ‘why’ of what they have done, even if I don’t completely like the ‘what’. When I take the time to think about the logic (and necessity) of defending constitutionality rather than personality it becomes clear immediately they are front line soldiers in our fight against negation of our Constitution & rule of law.

We are definitely in an internal war now, with lawmakers who are lawbreakers, and an administration being lead by a fascist with a ‘lock ‘em up’ (and torture them even) mentality. Bush believes the Constitution is, “...that worthless old scrap of paper”, and our lawmakers (sic) disregard the law to enrich their positions, because they believe they are above the law. The lengths they will go to are readily evident by Bush’s commutation of Libby’s sentence yesterday, and you can expect more of the same whenever one of the cabal get their butts in a sling or found out.

Will you (or I) be so fortunate when the fascists make it a crime to speak against the state? Hell no! When they come in the middle of the night to haul you away to one of the many recently built ‘detention centers’ who will you turn to? A state controlled media?, the police?, the military?, your terrified neighbors? If you are Constitutionally correct, though, the ACLU will work on your behalf regardless of what the authorities ‘say’ you did, right?

(BTW, since much of this article & thread deals with polls it should be mentioned that two polls I have seen put the numbers at 60% & 72% of Americans are against letting Libby off the hook. Frankly, I believe if more Americans understood what really happened the numbers would be much higher, since Bush’s & Libby’s obstructionism are at the crux of why we are in this stupid illegal war now, and the ‘poll’ taken last November at the voting booths show how “we” the people really feel on the war issue)

Kudos for an excellent post, Point Blank.  One thing I would add is that we should stop allowing chicken hawks like Cheney and Bush from sending our young men and women off to die in foreign lands so they could make a buck.  You and I as Vietnam vets understand only too well what the real cost of such folly is.

Paul, good post.  Your points are well taken.  And thanks for the compliment.

RE: #83903 by dantinak on 7/04 at 8:44 am
(7 comments total)

“Let me try to explain it this way.  Do any of you who are so upset by this poll know what America’s approval rating in the world was last year, last week, ten years ago, twenty years ago?  You don’t know because it just doesn’t matter.  Polls are not reliable and don’t mean anything.”

dantinak—-I have the distinct feeling the ignorant stumblebum currently illegally occupying the Whitehouse might be a hero of yours. After all, he doesn’t pay attention to polls, read, or speak very well either for that matter. By ignoring the will of the people of this country AS EXPRESSED THROUGH NUMEROUS VALID POLLS (and the voting booth ‘poll’ of 2006) he has accomplished one thing for us, though, and that is galvanizing the American public toward a second revolution.

I have friends around the world and through research & reading, as well as personal communications one fact is readily apparent. People around the world in huge numbers still like the American ‘people’ and harbor great hopes for us as a ‘people’. In the past they have seen us ‘jump and run’ to help the world’s needy. The current administration has blown this worldwide goodwill and I count it as the human trait of common sense, when faced with the non-sensical American foreign & trade policies, they are rising up not especially against the American populace, but against our rulers (note I didn’t say leaders because there are very few of them in our government now). We are being driven or herded rather than lead, and it is rather blatant & obvious even to people removed thousands of miles from us.

Polls ARE important. If you are making policy decisions in a representative democracy don’t you think the representatives need indicators about how their constituants feel on vital policy decisions?.

If they don’t listen to how their voters feel on issues they are fools, AND we are foolish to keep them in office.

Polling is now a science, and relatively accurate at that. Especially accurate are ‘exit polls’, and if we had paid more attention to & demanded more accountability about the exit polling in the 2000 presidential election we probably wouldn’t be in the current pickle we are in regarding the world’s opinion of us.

To answer your question about results of this poll in previous years I don’t have the exact numbers. If it matters greatly to you it is up to you to research the numbers yourself. I can pretty well bet you will find that following the tragedies of 9/11 & Katrina, or even the Asian Tsunami, America & Americans were held in higher esteem than the time since the Bush colonialist tragedy began. I will also bet the numbers have continued to slide precipitously downward when people of other nations caught on to the Bush/neo-CON fascist threat now extant.

Thank you cyrena & Ernest for your always lucid opinions & writings. I wish I had you guys as neighbors on both sides of me, but I’ll just settle for the knowledge there are sensible activists patriots I am able to relate to/with utilizing forums like this.

Ernest, look at your history and you will see that for the everyone in the past who has admired us, there is always someone who hates us.  Nothing has changed.  During the cold war half the world hated us.  All I am saying is polls are not the way to run our government and are just a waste of time.  The media should not waste energy on polls.  That is it, I am against polls because they mean nothing.

Danitak, Let “me” put it to you this way.  For many years, the United States was the most admired nation on earth.  We were admired for the ideals embodied in the Declaration of Independence, even though we have never fully achieved those ideals.  We were admired for the basic structure of our constitutional democracy.  Today, the U.S. is not admired.  It is feared—in the same way that people once feared Nazi Germany.  We now represent not merely a severe case of hypocrisy but a threat to the very survival of the planet.  For any American with a modicum of a conscience, this new and disturbing way in which we are seen through the eyes of others should be deeply troubling.

Let me try to explain it this way.  Do any of you who are so upset by this poll know what America’s approval rating in the world was last year, last week, ten years ago, twenty years ago?  You don’t know because it just doesn’t matter.  Polls are not reliable and don’t mean anything.

I have a feeling it is the Present Bush administration that is not trusted and liked .

send Bill Clinton to Jakarta and watch the people line up for an autograph . send Bush and warn them they have to spend millions on security .

“We have a record of conquest, colonization and expansion unequaled by any people in the Nineteenth century. We are not about to be curbed now.”
Massachusetts Senator Henry Cabot Lodge [1898]

Go ahead and live your life by polls and hoping to have everyone’s approval.  I refuse to do this unless all country’s are held to the same level.  I don’t see any of those countries you talk about not trading with us.  Too many people are too concerned with popularity.  I am not.  We do the best we can and go from there and I could care less if people like me or not.  As I said before polls are crap and mean nothing.

I’m sorry, I didn’t realize how upset you were. (or maybe just mad at the world). In short, it’s not a matter of “popularity”, it’s a matter of THE LAW. When America tells the rest of the world to go F**k itself, because we don’t care a damn thing about upholding the rule of law within the framework of it, including our own laws, the rest of the world says that America is quite a hypocrite, and before you know it…like as of about 5 years ago, they ALL HATE US.

That is not a comfortable position to be in. Were you around for the 9-11 display of that hatred?

But no…not to worry about that. As long as you never step foot outside your house, you’ll be safe, and it won’t matter than everybody hates you, or that China could call in their loans tomorrow, and…well, where would you be? Well, you can always get a job in Iraq, working the oil fields for Halliburton. I’m sure they’ll like you.

Go ahead and live your life by polls and hoping to have everyone’s approval.  I refuse to do this unless all country’s are held to the same level.  I don’t see any of those countries you talk about not trading with us.  Too many people are too concerned with popularity.  I am not.  We do the best we can and go from there and I could care less if people like me or not.  As I said before polls are crap and mean nothing.

#83765 by dantinak on 7/03 at 8:26 pm
dantinak,

Please allow me a brief indulgence, just to suggest why -in fact- the opinion of the rest of the world is in fact very important. You see, we have agreements with the international community, that we will agree to follow the laws, because we expect them to do the same. It’s very critical in international treaties and such, because it is this mutual understanding that provides common protection for ALL, based on pre-existing agreements.

So, when we say, (as the most powerful and influential country around) that we will not torture, or that we will not kill innocent civilians, and that we agree to abide by the laws of war, and Intl Humanitarian Law, it’s because we want to have the same protections for ourselves. So, if they grab one of our troops, and hold as a POW, we know that our POW has certain rights that must be affored to him or her, and that there will be no torture. Torture is like the SUPREME crime of the land. It is NEVER allowed. So, it would follow, that we shouldn’t grab their people, and hide them away for years at a time, perpetrating endless torture.

If we CHOOSE to ignore all of these laws, then we can pretty much figure that the rest of the world will as well, and there goes all that protection for our own people, that would be available, if we had maintained our responsiblity. That part is about “reciprocity”, and it’s a very important thing to keep in mind, when you suggest that the opinions of other nations are of no significance.

The other reason to be a bit concerned about these other countries’ opinions opinions of us, is the fact that we are in the deepest of debt to many of them. (namely China, who doesn’t have the best of Human Rights records either, but what can WE say about that?)

We are also forced to TRADE with many of these other nations. As a matter of fact, we are highly dependant on that as well. We are in a serious decline, and this is just really not a good time, to have the rest of the world pissed off at us, because of the enormous arrogance and hubris of this government.

So, if you wonder why there wasn’t a poll on how other nations feel about “Arab or Muslim” countries, you should stop and think…Does it really MATTER to US, how France or China feels about THEM? They don’t need our “approval” to like or dislike any given Muslim country. They don’t have to “go thru us” to do business with each other.

So, this might be something to pay attention to. It is very close to the results of a US Poll, (CBS Pew Research)that indicated most Americans felt the same way about our behavior as the rest of the world does.

How about doing a poll of the world to see the approval numbers for Islamic nations. How about a poll to see the world’s opinion of France, Russia, China, etc.  Polls are crap and who really cares.  If these folks really wanted to get their point across start refusing our aid packages.  Sometimes when the right folks don’t like you, you are doing something right.  Polls are BS.

Dantitak, since most of our so-called aid packages come at a heavy price, I suspect that there are many who would be delighted if their nations refused them. 

You should read John Perkins, “Confession of an Economic Hit Man.”  Perkins job was to get corrupt foreign leaders to accept huge loans for massive construction projects that would benefit only a wealthy few.  The “loans” never make their way to the debtor nation but instead are transferred to the accounts of the giant construction companies like Bechtel.  When the debtor nation innevitably defaults on these huge loans, we extract our pound of flesh, such as forcing the countries to initiate neoliberal policies that enable giant multi-national corporations to extract the debtor nation’s resources or which privatize such things as water and electricity, charging fifteen hundred times what it had cost before we extended our generous “aid package.”

That’s the aspect of “foreign aid” that you will not learn about from the corporate media and one of the reasons people in other countries have such a dim view of Americans and their hegemony.

How about doing a poll of the world to see the approval numbers for Islamic nations. How about a poll to see the world’s opinion of France, Russia, China, etc.  Polls are crap and who really cares.  If these folks really wanted to get their point across start refusing our aid packages.  Sometimes when the right folks don’t like you, you are doing something right.  Polls are BS.

Another piece of sadly depressing news on the eve of the 4th of July! In any evaluation system, 10% is a big flunking grade. That means the United States, on Bush’s watch and because of him is a failing state.

What is even sadder about these surveys is that they report the very bad news and its causes without even suggesting an outline for remedy. So it falls upon concerned Americans to suggest a quick and radical plan for a solution. This is what I hope participants on this thread should address. Just lamenting is not going to fix the problem. Time is of great essence; waiting for the next elections might prove to be too little too late!

Hmmm?  Big surpise here! 

I mean U.S. imperial hegemony, a Project for a New American Century that believes it is America’s right and duty to dominate the rest of the world, violations of the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, including the development of new and deadlier generations of nuclear weapons, the militarization of space, unprovoked wars of agression, blocking a ceasefire while Israel tried to bomb Lebanon into the Stone Age, extraordinary rendition, torture, elimination of a right of habeas corpus that dates back to the Magna Carta, the creation of “military tribunals” that are straight out of Kafka, warrantless NSA eavesdropping both foreign and domestic, reckless environmental policies that threaten the very existence of the planet, a health care system that places the wealth of a few above the lives of its own citizens, a federal government which intentionally diverted monies that should have gone for levies in New Orleans; which replaces a once effective FEMA with faith-based organizations run by billionaire swindlers; which, purely for ideological reasons, turned away scores of Cuban doctors with medical back packs who could have saved lives after Katrina, a global effort to create massive wealth for the few at the expense of the many under NAFTA and the WTO, a nation which boasts about “spreading democracy” then sits back numbly as two successive presidential elections are electronically stolen, and a nation led by a dissembling moron who is incapable of stringing two coherent sentences together.

Gee wiz!  Why would anyone from another country take a dim view of the United States?

lilmamzer, take the time to actually “read” Professor Norman Finkelstein’s erudite, tightly written and exhasutively researched “Beyond Chutzpah” and you will find mountains of “manipulating deceit,” including the canards you have continued to repeat throughout Truthdig.

#83418 by Skruff on 7/03 at 4:58 am
Great post Skruff, I miss those sheets myself, along with real cast iron cookware, and well made furniture that can actually be expected to last for years and years…etc, etc.

We have a whole bunch of closed down industries on our side as well. The Military bases are all booming though.

Our current political leadership doesn’t inspire much admiration at the moment. They have trashed basic American values in the name of “the war on terrorism”. The greatest generation fought for these values that Bush now ignores. America doesn’t agree with Bush. Why should the rest of the world? The good news is that a Democratic president could quickly undo the damage Bush has caused in the last eight years, but God help us if another Republican manages to get elected. That would start to cement the impression that America is becoming a neo-fascist country with American imperialism in full bloom.  We are living in dangerous times but the real danger is ourselves losing sight of what made America great in the first place.

This also explains why the 2008 Presidential election is so important.  On that note, a looming scandal.  Apparently, Hillary Clinton’s campaign understated contributions from Mr. Paul totalling over $772,000. At first, the campaign claimed that they’d never heard of Peter Paul, then Senator Clinton claimed she’d met him , but never had conversations regarding his contribution to her Senate run.

The video evidence shows otherwise.

See:

http://zennie2005.blogspot.com/2007/07/hillary-clinton-stan-lee-and-peter-paul.html

“The United States of America was once a beacon for freedom and justice.”

Now it looks more like that burning eyeball in Mordor.

It does seem a little silly to think that Israel has bestowed Americans with a predisposition for manipulative deceit. This is a human trait that has been around a lot longer than America or Israel and it’ll be around long after America and Israel are gone.

This one single trait provides the basis for my nearly complete lack of faith in the inability of any government anywhere to govern responsibly or accountably.

The only answer IMHO is to hard wire politicians to the Internet so they can be monitored by the people they lead. Religions have been promoting the idea that leaders who abuse their power will get their come-uppance due to the justice meted out by a god that is contstantly watching and judging them. This has always been a ridiculous notion of course because there is no god.

There is however an Internet.

To me the term surveillance society should mean that society is the one doing the surveilling instead of it being surveilled.

Evil clearly trickles down through society when it’s concentrated near its top, perhaps accountability might trickle down if it’s concentrated at the top. We’ve certainly been led to believe this will be the case with wealth so I say we test the theory.

The United States of America was once a beacon for freedom and justice.  The world once looked up to America for its democracy and leadership in the world.

What has taken decades to build has been destroyed by Geroge W. Bush and Dick Cheney in 6 years.  How could this have happened?

Instead of freedom and justice, America is now known for lying to the world to justify a bogus war, sanctioning torture, spying on its citizens, and disregarding international law. 

No matter how great America is you simply cannot bully your friends and bomb your enemies without consequences. Bush and Cheney may think they are the King and Prince of America, but they do not have absolute power. It is my hope the people of America will use their voting power to chart a new course for the country.

#83403 by weather:

Acrimony, angst and a inexhaustable supply of manipulating deceit - all very carefully choreographed w/the fraudulent and phony energy of Hollywood production.

Please give us details about the “manipulating deceit”.

Fascism just isn’t as fashionable as it once was.

B

http://b-political.blogspot.com/