#83089 by Skruff on 7/02 at 5:26 am

Skruff,

No silence from me. I stand in apology and corrected. You have NOT directed any snipes at me, nor have I found anything personally objective.

So, my own post (in response to Ernest’s) was out of line in even mentioning you. However, his “claims” on you and your own arguments, were in fact a perfect description of some OTHER posters that have in fact been wasting our time. (or, at least mine, if only because I allowed it.)

Please accept my apologies.

Oh MY Goodness:

#82905 by Skruff on 7/01 at 8:44 am

You still fail to understand that you are talking about yourself.....what a shame.

None so blind as those who will not see.

#82919 by Ernest Canning on 7/01 at 9:36 am

Ernest, Ardee, reading this that you wrote was like a “de ja vue” because after the attacks I’ve had today, (from morons)Skruff is pretty mild. He might just have bad days some times. Still, when you wrote this, it was like...this is exactly what the tune has become on the thread with End-Time Politics and Religion...or whatever the one was with the debate between Chris Hedges and Sam Harris.

***"When someone, like myself, finally grows tired of his silly game and calls him out by pointing to the absurdity of the remark, Skruff resorts to projecting his own innermost feelings as being the motivation behind the retort by accusing those who challenge his absurdities as simply engaging in a “win at all costs nastiness"--never stopping to realize that it is his petty snipes that are the source of degeneration of what should otherwise be an intellectually stimulating discourse between individuals who, though they do not always agree, have much to gain from the interaction if they show the other the respect that should be afforded all who seek to expand their minds through interactive dialogue."***

It was almost exactly what I’d written to these same morons, on that thread, that have somehow decided that they’ll yank my chain, with bullshit. More than anything, I was annoyed with myself for even wasting time responding the second or third time, because it’s obvious that they aren’t responding to any of what I’m saying, because in reality, it’s only to harrass me.

So now, I’ve got Lefty, Timmy, Bfskinnerpunk, (or PF Flyers punk)and then some other space goon named wavelength. I swear, I think they’re stalking me.

(don’t those names sound a little bit like slapstick comedy? I dunno...I’m not taking any chances in laughing them off. So, I’ll have to keep my bat handy.

But, you both are right. I agree with your assessment on getting folks to put aside their minor differences, so that they can fullfill some of the larger common goals. That’s the major problem that the Civil Rights Movement encountered. Kind of a divergence of additional interests, which pretty much broke up the power of the common causes. It was a boon to many black folks at the time, at least when I was entering the work force, but over the years, we somehow left too many people behind. It’s never enough just to help “yourself” up. Once there, even part of the way, we have to turn around and lend the hand to the others. That didn’t happen.

So now, here we ALL are, in basically the same boat, and it’s taking on water too damn fast.

I’ll send out an SOS if the popscicle stand gang keeps bugging me.

That two of those posters for whom I have the highest respect chose to flatter me with a response made my day. I would push the envelope a bit further, if I may.

In order to halt a creeping (or rather galloping) destruction of those very ideals which made this nation contain the seeds for something very special we must learn how to reach out. As long as we live in a democratic society wherein the vote determines the quality of our leadership (though the honesty of the vote itself has come under suspicion) we who seek change must seek alliances.

If we note the way the right has worked diligently for decades to obtain the power necesary to enforce its ideology upon the majority, and the right is certainly far, far from such, being always a small subset of our culture we should learn something. The right, not unlike the left, is comprised of various factions, some with religious agendas, some with economic ones, all with much individual differences yet all agreed to bury those differences to work for power and a greater voice in the agendas of our government.

The left however has never agreed to put aside its differences in order to speak with a unified and thus more powerful voice. While the right quietly bought up the media, made peace with the fanatics among them, converting that fanaticism into tireless political action, the middle was consumed with apathy and indifference and the left, the activisist who should have been informing and leading the push back towards the center instead bickered among themselves over rather trivial differences in iedeology.

I would use as an example the massive demonstrations opposing the looming invasion of Iraq. The group , at least here on the left coast,who got the permits, organised the speakers, planned the routes and, in general, did the dirty work, and did it rather well indeed, was ANSWER. Instead of appreciating that work, instead of applauding the way they agreed to speakers from all sides (Left Sides of course) of the issues as long as those speakers never used the forum to criticise ANSWER itself, there was widespread sniping about a Marxist group being in charge, not that this work had to be done, not that noone else stepped up to do it, just that they were socialists,hmmpph. Groups actually refused to participate because of some silly political purity issues. The demonstrations attracted millions of folks world wide and should have led to permanent coalitions working to move our nation away from creeping fascism, like the antiwar, anti Viet Nam coalitions born around those massive outpourings, yet they did not. One wonders if we will continue to argue and insult while our ship of state sinks slowly beneath the waves of international corporate rule?

If we cannot meet and find common ground with one like Skruff, how can we hope to achieve much of anything? I say that debate with Skruff is problematic at least, but I say that we must share in that problem because we need the Skruffs if we hope to achieve our goals. I must add that my words certainly do not echo my deeds as I have difficulty overcoming intellectual dishonesty also, but find a way we must......

I hope the Cheney impeachment rally will be an outpouring of love, of the best and truest self of this country which has been suppressed for forty years and more, since the Kennedy Assassination, the Vietnam War, and the progressive victory of corporate fascism and imperialism over democracy. Other countries have taken up where we faltered, and have moved ahead as leaders in democracy and civilization. This long national nightmare can end. We can really promote peace and democracy abroad. We can get the military-industrial complex off our backs and have plenty of money for peaceful projects both domestic and foreign. We can get rid of the insurance companies and have universal medical care as they do in all other advanced countries.

How about this: hang an effigy of Cheney from a flag pole and set it on fire; say the pledge of allegience to the flag while watching it burn. Then everybody dance around, pass the weed and have a good time!

ardee & cyrena:  I sincerely appreciate both the kind words and the thoughtfulness that have gone into both of your posts throughout the site known as “Truth"-dig.

Skruff appears to be a rather complex individual.  He obviously possesses a superior intellect and a working knowledge of history.  But there seems also to be a passive aggressive, know-it-all, nature within his personality.

If you track my posts, as well as those of some of the other intellectuals who seek to engage in that wonderful democratic process known as interactive communication, you will find him often searching for some tiny remark he can attempt to pick apart, as if the idea of intellectual interaction were a game of one-upsmanship.  The process leads to his eventually posting a truly absurd remark, such as “Ghandi was an abject failure” or “all truth is emphemeral"--positions which I doubt he sincerely believes but which he asserts to simply get a rise out of his target.  In the “Ghandi was an abject failure” case, Skruff was responding a prior posting by ardee which challenged the efficacy of violence.

When someone, like myself, finally grows tired of his silly game and calls him out by pointing to the absurdity of the remark, Skruff resorts to projecting his own innermost feelings as being the motivation behind the retort by accusing those who challenge his absurdities as simply engaging in a “win at all costs nastiness"--never stopping to realize that it is his petty snipes that are the source of degeneration of what should otherwise be an intellectually stimulating discourse between individuals who, though they do not always agree, have much to gain from the interaction if they show the other the respect that should be afforded all who seek to expand their minds through interactive dialogue. 

And, no, ardee, I did not think your post was too long.

#82883 by ardee on 7/01 at 6:59 am

Ardee....great post. Very inspiring. I hope it’s widely read.

The reason I remain at this site is encapsulated in the dialogues of Earnest Canning; the reasons I consider leaving are fully exposed in the replies of Skruff.

I would hasten to interject that Skruff is far from the least intelligent or uninformed of the motley crew that infest this and most other forums on line. Since the Rovian technique of smear the messenger and ignore the message has come into fashion it has bled into all political discourse.

When Skruff notes:
I am disappointed by the narrowness of arguments here, and disenchanted with the “win at all costs” nastiness.

He is absolutely correct but he fails to include the most important ingredient in that argument, namely ;that he himself falls prey to the exact same strategies. Most folks here, with a few wonderful exceptions, argue from their own narrow perspective, immediately fall to sarcasm and even invective when their belief system is challenged instead of engaging in the most useful tool available, constant evaluation of their position in the face of new input. A rare few do such as this, and it is those folks who are worth the effort.

Long ago I decided that I had two choices when engaging in internet political dialogues; I could simply ignore those who proved worthless, and Ive already done so with the worst of the lot here, and I could return insult with insult, invective and sarcasm in return for the same. I do that with those who otherwise display enough literacy in their posts to make me wonder why they do not take the next step and discuss and think about the points of others.

Dos this make my input as problematic as those who fall prey to the intellectually lazy debating techniques of Karl Rove? Sure I suppose it does.

One wonders what is one to do with someone who calls Ghandi’s life a failure? I am certain that Skruff knows this , in his heart, to be an impossibly ridiculous stance and only posted because of a frustration that noone is persuaded by that which “he knows” to be fact. The real fact is that Ghandi will be remembered as long as Dr. King, Jesus and as long as peace is valued

This post, become too lengthy by far, is posted because unless we overcome this communications problem, this reluctance to come together as the right has done, then we we always be a struggling minority, losing to the powerful forces of ideological purity and vast wealth.

#82842 by Ernest Canning on 6/30 at 10:52 pm

Ernest, you are a fountain of wisdom. ie your comment:

..... The Panthers’ successes occurred when they engaged in peaceful efforts to assist people of color within their own community.  When they resorted to violence, they were decimated; hauled off to prison.  In case you haven’t notice, there are no more Panthers.

Malcolm X was an intellectual giant who, by the end of his too short life, was coming around to the power of non-violent resistance.

The Watts riots accomplished little beyond the destruction of much of the community.  Whatever “pressure” was exerted was, oh what is that word you are so fond of, “ephemeral.”.....

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Maybe not even as well. The thing that’s so very sad, (but maybe not surprising) is that so many reasonably intelligent people fail to “get” this stuff. Some 35 or 40 years later, people whom have grown up in the footprints of movements like the Panters, don’t even have a clue to their original mission,(providing social services to the communities that were largely ignored by the “state")and obtaining some measures of social-economic fairness and equality. 

Interstingly enough, Angela Davis spoke at an event here in my own community, about a year or so ago. It was a full audience. And, when a member of the audience brought this up, (about the Panther original mission)she was surprised that it wasn’t already well known. She wryly commented that “Humm, that’s why we can’t “assume” anything.”

And, she would be correct. Folks don’t know, and I can only hope that in pointing these things out from time to time, and making the necessary comparisons, the bigger picture might become clearer for them.

More scruffy thinking.  The Panthers’ successes occurred when they engaged in peaceful efforts to assist people of color within their own community.  When they resorted to violence, they were decimated; hauled off to prison.  In case you haven’t notice, there are no more Panthers.

Malcolm X was an intellectual giant who, by the end of his too short life, was coming around to the power of non-violent resistance.

The Watts riots accomplished little beyond the destruction of much of the community.  Whatever “pressure” was exerted was, oh what is that word you are so fond of, “ephemeral.”

#82762 by Tony Wicher on 6/30 at 3:03 pm

Here’s the event I’m going to:

4th of JULY IMPEACHMENT PICNIC

Wednesday, July 4th - Noon to 3:00 PM

La Cienega Park
8400 Gregory Way
Beverly Hills 90211
Near Olympic & La Cienega

OK Tony, thanks for this location information. I’ll see you there, and I’m bringing my tribe with me.

Tony, I appreciate the reference to the Kucinich flyers.  I’ve printed my own set and plan to hand them out in Thousand Oaks tonight when I go to see Sicko!

Ghandi an abject failure?  How absurd.  His peaceful, non-violent resistence liberated India from British imperialism.  That his success in life was not followed by success after his death in uniting Hindu, Muslim and Sikh is tragic but a far cry from “abject failure.”

Ghandi’s philosphy provided the underpinning and inspiration for Martin Luther King and the American civil rights movement.  King himself acknowledged that.

If you want a comparative analysis, consider the ineffectual violence of the Weather Underground.  What did “they” accomplish besides getting a few innocents killed?

I would like to add that for those of you who celebrate the glorious Fourth, I suggest you do so at your local “Impeach Cheney” rally. They are going on all over the country. There could be no more meaningful way to spend your Fourth. Also, watch Sicko this weekend. Mickael Moore endorses only Dennis Kucinich’s health plan. Dennis suggests handouts to people coming out of the theatre that make this point.

Here’s the event I’m going to:

4th of JULY IMPEACHMENT PICNIC

Wednesday, July 4th - Noon to 3:00 PM

La Cienega Park
8400 Gregory Way
Beverly Hills 90211
Near Olympic & La Cienega

Friends and Impeachment Activists:

Please come join and be a part of a nationwide movement to Impeach Bush & Cheney and to uphold Americans’ Constitutional Rights:

To Celebrate the Inauguration of the Los Angeles Impeachment Center.


Congresswoman Maxine Waters is a confirmed speaker for both the inauguration ceremony and for the picnic from 12 to 3 pm.  There will be music at various times at the picnic including music and entertainment from Eva James (songs around 1pm), musician Steven Fine,and special guest Marcy Vaj and the Regime-Change Band.

What and Whom: Congresswoman Maxine Waters to speak at 11 am at a 30 minute Ceremonial Inauguration for the Peace Center (Maxine Waters to speak) ; Picnic from 12pm - 3pm at La Cienega Park (Olympic & La Cienega). Confirmed speakers who will attend and speak at Impeachment Center July 4th Picnic include: Maxine Waters, Paul Koretz, Byron De Lear, Anthony St. Martin, Larry Everest, Shakeel Syed (Executive Director of the Islamic Shura Council of Southern California), and Jackie Goldberg.

Why: To Urge Los Angeles City Council, Santa Monica City Council and CA State Congressional and Assembly Representatives to Pass a Resolution Calling for the Impeachment of President Bush and Vice-President Cheney

When: Wednesday, July 4th, 11 a.m. to 3 p.m.

Where: 8124 W. Third Street (at the “Peace Center” located by Crescent Heights & 3rd Street) ; 11 am inauguration will be immediately followed by picnic at nearby La Cienega Park from 12-3 pm.

Leaders of the Westside Greens, the Progressive Democrats of Los Angeles, the Los Angeles Greens, and the Santa Monica Democratic Club will officially inaugurate the Los Angeles Impeachment Center to be followed by speakers who will address strategies and ideas relating to the impeachment of George W. Bush and Richard B. Cheney. The Impeachment Center will coordinate phone banking, letter writing, meeting sessions and civil disobedience actions relating to Impeachment.  It will provide Impeachment related resources available for distribution. Lawn signs, bumper stickers and other literature will be made available to all who attend. Volunteers will discuss tactics relating the Impeachment of both Bush & Cheney.

#82657 by Skruff on 6/30 at 5:51 am
“Ghandi, for all his public relations acumen was an abject failure as far as goal accomplishment was concerned.”

Excuse me? Gandhi an abject failure? He may not have succeeded in everything he tried to accomplish, but still, India is today a independent, secular democracy of one billion people and Gandhi deserves more credit for that than any other one man.

What about Nelson Mandela? Not only did he succeed, he managed to do it without getting assassinated. What a man!

In almost every case violence is counter-productive. Jesus is right. If the goal is peace on earth, which all mankind wants, then the means must be peaceful. No matter what the the purported goal may be, no matter how seemingly justified, war, riots, assassinations and all other forms of violence, including hateful speech, add to conflict. The early Sixties were the most progressive generation in our nation’s history, but when that revolution of love became violent, it was defeated and co-opted by the forces of reaction. Only love can change the world.

Re #82557 by PatrickHenry on 6/29 at 6:49 pm

I don’t know if Cheney is best described as “stupid” or “incommpetent”. He obviously has great skill as a bureaucrat. Maybe Bush is stupid enough to believe half the crap he says, maybe - but Cheney? I just wonder whether we yet understand his agenda. It is about bloating himself with Halliburton blood money, that’s for sure. But I don’t know if it stops there.

Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence.

Tony, I think you may have hit on something the rest of us have missed.  Cheney can’t be killed.  He’s a machine, cold and heartless.

Re #82523 by Ernest Canning on 6/29 at 4:57 pm

A friend emailed an article to me today which muses on the question of whether Cheney should be assassinated. I replied that like Dennis Kucinich I oppose all political assassination. The evil that Cheney represents cannot stand the light of day. Exposed in an impeachment hearing, it will shrivel and die, leaving only the husk of what may once have been a human being. Assasinate him, and people will think him human. The husk then dies, but the evil spirit within is only liberated to metastasize. Who knows, there may be even worse things than Cheney who are pulling his strings.

Ardee, I fully concur.  Ghandi and Martin Luther King got it right.  Those who participate in violence become what they despise.  Those who advocate it, consistently underestimate the power of peaceful, non-violent resistance.  I hope it never comes to the point where all avenues of democratic change have been shuttered, but if that ever occurs, there is a very powerful yet entirely non-violent means to bring the oligarchs to their knees.  It’s called a general strike.

As to Skruff, while there have been times where he has shown potential, there are many occasions in which he seems to delight in taking the positions of a contrarian, such as when he suggested to me that it matters not if it can be shown that the Bushies electronically flipped the vote; that the solid academic presentation by Professor Steven Freeman & Joel Bleifuss in “Was the 2004 Election Stolen: Exit Polls, Election Fraud and the Official Count” documenting a mathematical impossibility in the vast shifts between exit-poll data and the official count all favoring the incumbent President because all that matters is that Bush was sworn in; that history really doesn’t matter because all “truth” is “ephermeral.”

Any attempt to respond to this assinine and twisted line of reasoning merely produces derision from the erudite “Skruff.” I’ve decided that it’s best I stop trying to inject reason as a replacement for skruffy thinking.

Skruff says:
I disagree. when dealing with an entity which will kill children, innocent civilians, and torture folks to get (questionable) information If you take violent revolt off the table, you will be ignored, until they get around to you.

Now please read the above again before you ask if I’ve read the turner diaries
.....
I say, ..You had to include the last didnt you, demonstrating an immaturity rather than understanding that my reference to that book was to lump that far right wing nutjob in the same category as Tim McVeigh who used the theme of the ‘Diaries’ to blow up the Oklahoma Federal Building, murdering children and other innocents, and to show the ridiculous nature of contemplating an armed insurrection against this nation.

You think any such threats would be taken seriously by our government, really? Just how would you make such a threat, piece together letters from various magazines and send it to Georgie? The real threat to the neoconservative corporatists who have usurped the power of the people is to use our political power and not our weapons. You cant take armed insurrection off the table because no reasonable or sane person believes it to be there in the first place. We either retake the Democratic Party or make a third party strong enough to keep the progressive agenda on the table.

It didnt take an armed revolt to begin the process to bring justice and equality to black Americans (we arent there quite yet), in fact it was the violence of the racists who sped the process, and violence always has a negative effect. Those who preach it retard the cause and probably have watched too damn many John Wayne movies....

Be civil or do not respond.

We don’t need a revolt, since a revolt is a revolution that failed. The people (many) have been in the revolt stage for quite some time now.

It is sheer lunacy to consider the possibility of an armed insurrection against this government UNLESS the military supports the effort. Even then what would likely occur would be a an internal war between the US military and the private mercenary troops we currently fund. The key is in the last three words of the last sentence. The revolt can become a revolution if we de-fund the private mercenary army. How many mercenaries are willing to fight for principle rather than profit...none.

Sweet Old Lady,
#82221 by sweetoldlady on 6/28 at 4:55 pm

No need to forgive your ignorance, (because you aren’t) or your status as a non-American, (because you’re probably all the better off). But the answer to your question is...you’re right. And, we actually DO have in this American political structure, other parties besides the Dems and the Repubs. We’ve got Libertarians, and Greens, and we’ve even had the occasional Independent in a few of our parliamentary seats, or as the occasional Governor here and there.  And, we have a provision for the “write-in” candidates on our ballots as well.

So, the legal structure does in fact allow for the type of 2nd Revolution that you suggest. The problem here, is that in a general sense, Americans are simply not as politically or ideologically “connected” as they are in the UK, (or even the EU in general) and because of the total corruption that our Electoral system has become. It is next to impossible, (in the realpolitiks of the American political system) for a candidate or candidates(s) to gain even a foot of recognition, without a ton of money and political influence. As some commentator mentioned somewhere in these reports, it would almost seem that anybody who is actually vying for the job(s,) are probably the least qualified in a real sense. Not always, because we have in fact had good leadership in our history. But as it stands now, this 2nd, (or renewal) Revolution that is so needed, can only come about with a re-awakening of the general populace here, just to get everybody re-indoctrinated to what the whole thing was intended in the first place. A democracy of “we the people”.

I think it’s coming about, albeit slowly, and spaces like this help accomplish that.

Well, I guess I’ve been totally mis-understood again. All I said was if it comes, and I sincerly believe it’s coming, I would fight for my Rights and Liberty’s and the Responsible, Accountable, action of our government.
As I have before.

I most certainly hope and pray ardee, that a peaceful solution to our crisis comes about. Everyone voting for themself?… Sure why not. What ever.

But I think, as many do, that the longer we all sit around venting in cyber-space, ranting and raving about Impeachment and criminal proceedings and etc, we’ll wake up one morning and it will be too late then.

At the current rate… I think it’d be a safe bet to say that in just a little more time, King Bushit will take away our right to protest against the King. Like the Habeas Corpus Right loss, and how many others…

So yee haw and yah rah for the peaceful solutions to manifest, just know that I think the American People are drawing a line in the sand.

To a Better Day…

#81998 by Nitro on 6/27 at 9:17 pm
(64 comments total)

Didn’t read the “Turner Diary” ardee [81704] and maybe I do need evaluating.

Too long of a list to address the names of those in our history, that were accqused of being off the wall, crazy, rebellious, needing evaluating, that were only proven to be nothing but “True Patriots” my friend.

A polite and considered response, one that causes me to reevaluate my “diagnosis” in fact.

For both Nitro and B

Comparing the situation in 1775 with today is pointless really, one had a small and scattered population with an absentee ruler and very, very long supply lines, the other has an imbedded military with a suspended Posse Comitatus Act, a huge paramilitary police force and a populace unwilling to see violence as a solution. That last is a very good thing.

Revolutions come in all flavors, recourse to violence indicates failure. We certainly need dramatic changes to our political and social systems if we are to survive as the worlds greatest democratic institution.

We have been abandoned by our two political parties in favor of those who writelarge and continuing campaign checks, thus enslaving us all. There are, however, much better ways to work for change than spouting off, in open forum, about a need for a violent overthrow of the government. Some may see a retaking of the Democratic Party as the way, some may not, I for one do not. Some may see that supporting a third party, one pledged to never accepting donations from corporations, as a solution. I sort of agree with this at least as a partial solution.

The key to whatever is necesary to retaking our democratic republic from the corporatists who work diligently to shrink the middle class and put profit before honor and freedom is engaging and involving the peoples of these United States. Talking about violent overthrow of the government is not the way to win through.

Subtext......I will always respond politely to polite debate, that racist jackass is off my list and should be off the list of every right thinking person.

#81867 by THOMAS BILLIS on 6/27 at 2:10 pm

Thomas, thanks, I do agree and Frank Zappa was truly a genius.  I had followed him in a number of interviews a long, long time ago.

Yes, prophetic and sad at the same time...these are things we don’t like to see come to reality.

#81675 by PaulMagillSmith on 6/26 at 10:10 pm

Just noticed this particular post from you PaulMSmith, and you were wondering what the process and/or likihood was, of doing a sort of “citizens impeachment”.

I’m thinking there is, if only because it’s so clearly written into the Constitution, for exactly this reason...this circumstance, such an event. And, the founders were gun-shy at the time, they knew they wanted to say “never again” to the tryranny of “the king”. And, there are numerous grassroots impeachment groups that have come into what I like to think is some progress, since really the beginning of the year, when Nancy Pelosi made it clear that “impeachment was off the table”.

Admittedly, I was really disgusted to have her so summarily dismiss it, when they finally had a chance to DO something after 12 years of being hog-tied by these neo-cons.

But, the actual answer to your question about the logistics of doing a “citizens movement”, (a bit on the order of a class-action suit, except that this would need a constitutional law scholar/expert, of which there are many who would surely do the work pro bono, as a “we the people” type movement.) I can’t think of a time in our history, when things have ever been this bad. I mean Nixon was bad, there have been a few others, but this is just totally unprecedented, because it’s been such a total and devastating HIJACKING of our entire government structure!!!

But now, this last absurdity with him actually claiming that he’s not in the executive branch, because of this totally convuluted reasoning that would embarrass ANY legal clerk, or even a high school senior...because it’s just the most outrageous thing anybody has ever heard. Well, I now think it will be sooner than later, for them both to be gone.

At this point, cheney is so blatantly out of control, (that could have a reverse meaning I suppose, since it’s his unprecedented CONTROL that has put us in such peril) but you know what I mean. Now finally, some of his own are making noises, if only because of the pure essence of realpolitik. In other words, it’s only about the “party” now, and about their individual careers.

With this last move by dick, he’s just proved to all, that he’s finally gone over the edge, he’s out of control, and george is totally useless, as he always has been. If they didn’t know it before, they do now. I don’t see that they have a choice, but to do another late night walk like they did with Nixon. Otherwise, they’ve pretty much crashed and burned. Now the only question is how much left is salvagable. How much have they not already stolen, that we’ll never be able to recover.

Check out some of the groups at http://www.impeach.org

Howard Zinn wrote a piece specifically addressing this, about 6 or 8 months ago. You might try to google him, or check the truthout.org archieves.

We may be impeaching Cheney before September, I hope, I hope. I wonder if people will remember who introduced HR 333? Will he still be treated as a gentle Bambi creature with too many principles to have a chance of getting elected?

~B~ [81981] Thanks for the web links to check out. It’s hard to find good info sites.

And good post…

To A Better Day…

White House, Cheney’s office subpoenaed By LAURIE KELLMAN, Associated Press Writer
53 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - The Senate subpoenaed the White House and Vice President Dick Cheney’s office Wednesday, demanding documents and elevating the confrontation with President Bush over the administration’s warrant-free eavesdropping on Americans.

White House, Cheney’s office, subpoenaed
The Senate Judiciary Committee subpoenaed the White House and Vice President Dick Cheney’s office Wednesday for documents relating to President Bush’s controversial eavesdropping program that operated warrant-free for five years. (June 27)

The escalation is part of the Democrats’ effort to hold the administration to account for the way it has conducted the war on terrorism since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. The subpoenas extend the probe into the private sector, demanding among other things documents on any agreements that telecommunications companies made to cooperate with the surveillance program.

The White House contends that its search for would-be terrorists is legal, necessary and effective — pointing out frequently that there have been no further attacks on American soil.

To the Whitehouse statement: The 9-11 attack was a False Flag event intended to be used to start a war against Afghanistan, Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya and Iran.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EAVESDROPPING_S UBPOENAS?SITE=INEVA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Didn’t read the “Turner Diary” ardee [81704] and maybe I do need evaluating.

Too long of a list to address the names of those in our history, that were accqused of being off the wall, crazy, rebellious, needing evaluating, that were only proven to be nothing but “True Patriots” my friend.

So that’s ok in your opinion that I need evaluating, because I have big shoulders. I just wonder… have you ever offered your life for your country? Or are you of the 99% that don’t serve, yet sit back and squander with no respect for the liberty’s that prevail to everyone, yet, only paid for by a few?

Would you fight for your land, your rights, your freedoms, your Liberty? Or would you sit back and wait for it all to be history, while watching it on CNN? At someone else’s all expense…

Wave your flag of peace my friend, the day is coming, it’s in the wind. Pray yet a peaceful solution comes about, no doubt, yet face reality and what has been done and happened. They have BROKEN THE LAW, and if refuse to agree to a Article V Convention, then once again my friend,…

IT IS UP TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO REMOVE FROM OFFICE THOSE IN VIOLATION, AND RESTORE THE GOVERNMENT TO A GOVERNABLE ONE.

All I can say is if it comes down to it… you’ll damn sure see me there on the front lines, as before… It’s one thing to wear a t-shirt that says, “NO FEAR.” It’s quite the other to live it…

So think what you may my friend, just know, that I am a TRUE PATRIOT ! ~

“to the open forum:
Any moron like this one who preaches violent revolution in open forum is either really stupid(he is, obviously),a real right wing nutjob in the Tim McVeigh category, very young and already bored with summer vacation or a provocateur hoping to incite a progressive website to preach violence. Your choice.”

Ardee you are risking joining Point Blank in “proving with such eloquence how very useless you are to any ultimate solution to the problems besetting our nation”

Revolution is not for “right wing nut jobs” exclusively. It is also the last tool available to an oppressed population. Would you claim Patrick Henry to be any of the above slurs because of his opposition to oppression and his calls for revolution? [Not that I am by ANY means comparing Point Blank to Patrick Henry...I agree with your assessment in Point Blanks case but I digress...]

While we are at it, Patrick Henry himself feared what the nation had become after the revolution. He feared the same impulses of greed, corruption, and consolidation of power we had fought the king to escape. If not for his activism the Bill of Rights would not exist. He realized that in order for a government to be free of oppression it must be created for the sole purpose of freedom. Any other reason for forming a government would inextricably lead to some sort of oppression.

“You are not to inquire how your trade may be increased, nor how you are to become a great and powerful people, but how your liberties can be secured; for liberty ought to be the direct end of your Government.” Patrick Henry at the Virginia Ratifying Convention June 5 1788.

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch 8s38.html

The above site is a great resource for folks who would like to actually read the arguments that helped forge this nation.

Also, as an interesting aside...fear mongering is an American tradition. At the time of the birth of our nation fear was the main engine to drive the states to form a large national government rather than a loose confederation. Again, Patrick Henry rose against this threat also at the Va Ratifying Conv.

“Consider our situation, Sir: Go to the poor man, ask him what he does; he will inform you, that he enjoys the fruits of his labour, under his own fig-tree, with his wife and children around him, in peace and security. Go to every other member of the society, you will find the same tranquil ease and content; you will find no alarms or disturbances: Why then tell us of dangers to terrify us into an adoption of this new Government? and yet who knows the dangers that this new system may produce; they are out of the sight of the common people: They cannot foresee latent consequences: I dread the operation of it on the middling and lower class of people: It is for them I fear the adoption of this system.”

After over two centuries here we are STILL fear-mongering the citizens into a more and more oppressive government. Into more and more economic pitfalls, military misadventures, and of course the lining of the pockets of those in power.

So the question is...is Patrick Henry (the original not the poster here lol) a moron? right wing nut job? very young? or a provocateur?

A moron would be one who would let their government run amok. A moron would allow his government to dictate to him what his rights should be. A moron would allow this government to continue as it has for centuries. Bush is not the begining just the latest.

Point Blank - try reading more it may open your eyes…

B

http://b-political.blogspot.com/

#81709 by Point Blank on 6/27 at 5:08 am
(94 comments total)

ardee, IF you support what I deem communist backed shit head organizations, then it goes without saying that you are so damn low you have to jump up to touch bottom and that your color must be the same as a horse’s pha-toot.  On what coast are you located?  Since you are probably a “city slicker” the color is PINK!  Now, sonny, go to your corner and play with yourself.  Bye, jerk-

I must thank you for proving with such eloquence how very useless you are to any ultimate solution to the problems besetting our nation, so eloquently that I felt the need to repost it in its entirety. Everyone should have the opprotunity to see how sophomoric and really abysmally stupid you are, and , as the bold emphasises, a racist asshole to boot.

to the open forum:
Any moron like this one who preaches violent revolution in open forum is either really stupid(he is, obviously),a real right wing nutjob in the Tim McVeigh category, very young and already bored with summer vacation or a provocateur hoping to incite a progressive website to preach violence. Your choice.

#81718 by Sylvia Barksdale Morovitz on 6/27 at 5:51

Sylvia, this is an excellent post, and you bring up an interesting point about Eugene’s reference to any comment on impeachment. As a matter-of-fact, he gives the standard excuse at the beginning of his column, when he writes this:

..."I’m often asked why, given my lower-than-low opinion of this administration, I don’t at least raise the subject of whether George W. Bush should be impeached. I answer with three scary words that tend to end the discussion: President Dick Cheney.”..

And, in reality, that WAS the thinking for the ordinary person who really hated the fact that george turned out to be a retard, (which many of us already knew), but the thought of Cheney’s suceeding him, (which is of course the Constitutional flow in such an event), was simply more than anyone could psychologically prepare for or embrace.

That is until it became increasingly obvious to ordinary people, that it was Cheney himself, that was the real danger, and he’s just as impeachable as bush and the others are, so the impeachment crowd finally figured out, that was where we needed to start...which Cheney. That’s the number one tactical solution in the counter-terrorism arsenal. Find the HEAD of the terror network, (in this case cheney) and whack or totally disable HIM, and the rest will follow.

That’s why the focus has to be on impeaching him first, which we now have more than enough evidence to do.

Meantime, the 4-part essay series on Cheney’s secret and criminal life is posted on Truthout. The series has been put together for the Washington Post, by a team of their top journalists and staff research assistants. To date, 3 parts have been published.  They are lengthy, but well worth the read. (one link will give you all three so far published.)

Never mind the last part. I’ve just noticed that all 4 parts are posted now, at this link:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/062707B.shtml

Come on now, folks, “give Cheney a break”...a broken neck at the end of a rope for treason, that is!!!

#81704 by ardee on 6/27 at 4:37 am

GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR GIVE ME DEATH !!!

“Nitro, I much prefer you be given a psychiatric evaluation....So tell me, how did you enjoy reading “The Turner Diary”?”

Wow, Nitro, You must be one sick puppy, after all you would actually prefer death to imprisonment.  Imagine that!  You know what...me too!

How many know about IBM helping the Third Reich make their death camps run more smoothly? How about both Ford and General Motors working with Adolph and then receiving war reparations when the Nazis lost?

Maybe Cheney makes himself extra repulsive on purpose. Maybe he just wants to avoid a lot of “I like Dick” bumper stickers and T-shirts.

#81715 by CitizenDefender on 6/27 at 5:27 am

“What concerns me is why the American people were not informed of Prescott Bush aiding Adolph Hitler, so I have included a noteworthy link. After you watch this you will understand George “Herbert Walker” Bush was named after his father-in-law, Dorothy Walker Bush’s father George Herbert Walker.”

Yeah, we already know, so what’s your point?  Do you actually expect us to get up off of our ass and “DO” something?  Do you know how uncomfortable that would be?  Can you imagine the trouble that would cause?  I mean come on, get real.  I make 50K and I have a family...jeez, I mean, jeez, what do you expect?  Action for christ sake? I mean get real...Jesus, you must be nuts!

Tongue planted firmly in cheek…

CitizenDefender:  Actually, there are many who are well-aware of the connections between Prescott Bush and Nazi Germany.  If you go back to the 4/27/07 Truthdig article by Amy Goodman, “U.S. Frees International Terrorist,” you will find my three-part post entitled “curious links” that tracks three generations of the family Bush.

#81462 by Dr. Nonothingatall, Phud on 6/26 at 7:00 am

Interesting post...almost poetic...I think I agree.  I just can’t figure out how all of this shit happened.  I thought we were smart, I thought we had it all figured out, I guess I was wrong.

I applaud all the comments made to the Cheney issue. What concerns me is why the American people were not informed of Prescott Bush aiding Adolph Hitler, so I have included a noteworthy link. After you watch this you will understand George “Herbert Walker” Bush was named after his father-in-law, Dorothy Walker Bush’s father George Herbert Walker. George Herbert Walker brought Prescott Bush into Brown Brothers Harriman and the Union Banking Corporation, which was a Nazi money laundering operation. John Buchanan, an investigative journalist brings a great deal to light about the Bush dealings. http://video.stumbleupon.com/#p=09zrk9id8n

GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR GIVE ME DEATH !!!

Nitro, I much prefer you be given a psychiatric evaluation....So tell me, how did you enjoy reading “The Turner Diary”?

#81591 by Point Blank on 6/26 at 4:49 pm
(93 comments total)

ardee, you betcha I have nothing but ill feelings towards the ACLU (American Communits Lawyers Union), the NAACP and the rest of the off beat organizations.  I will never, for as long as I live, make anything but the most vile remarks about them.  If you don’t like it then I suggest you cease reading any and all of my comments.

...Done and done.

One may, you fail to understand, criticize with intellect and thus avoid proving, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you are a moron.

#81664 by THOMAS BILLIS on 6/26 at 9:30 pm

I think I want to agree with you but, the last three sentences are confusing...please clarify.

Basically, we have screwed our selves through fear.  We have allowed the fascists to scare the common sense out of us and we are making shamefully bad decisions.  I pray we aren’t too late to change this tragic course of events.  Evil rules the day at this time.

Sorry I asked, Ernest, and I knew the Senate must try the case, but what is another avenue the people have when confronted by an un-responsive legislature? It appears the founding fathers, while presenting a good format for democratic principles, did not consider all the ramifications tyrants could bring to bear.

Another civil war seems in the mix, if not another revolution. Can we count on the sensibility (common sense) of the American people at large, when confronted with the polluting factor of money driven election processes & propagandistic information sources? Without a viable means of educating the masses to truth about this corrupt cesspool known as ‘our government’ I am inclined to not be hopeful, yet I still cling to the belief I wrote in a previous blog, “Tyrannies are temporary”.

The real question is how long can we afford to wait before the world, and our country, are doomed? I wish the re-incarnations of Jefferson & Franklin would step out of the shadows to give us insight & direction, but I’m afraid it’s just up to us, folks.

Keep on plugging away, Ernest, and after studying numerous of your posts take heart in the fact you’re not alone.

Paul, you could not bring criminal charges against Bush/Cheney while they remain in office.  The sequence would be impeachment, trial in the Senate and then removal from office.  They could then be subjected to criminal prosecutions, but in order to charge them under the War Crimes Act, Congress would have to repeal the Military Commissions Act, which provided a retroactive grant of immunity for all crimes committed in carrying out the Orwellian “war on terror.”

Have you watched the video from the link I provided?  If not, you definitely should.

Calm down Nitro; don’t want you to get in trouble by speaking the truth LOUD & CLEAR. If I can I’ll send you a care package to Git-Mo, ok friend?

The question is no longer ‘Should Cheney (then Bush) be impeached and tried for many obvious crimes?’, but how to go about making this happen. I know there are certain governmental immunities involved, but what if 100,000 or so citizens (who could afford the required filing fees) filed criminal charges against Cheney & Bush in the DC & Federal courts? Could they actually be arrested and “frog marched out of the Whitehouse in handcuffs”? (That phrase was used by a patriot a few years ago...remember?) Any lawyers on this thread who can shed some light in this area?